1 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:14,125 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:14,125 --> 00:00:16,525 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:16,525 --> 00:00:21,485 Rugnetta, and this intro was written on Tuesday, 09/29/2026 4 00:00:21,485 --> 00:00:27,380 at 10:11AM eastern, and we have an industrious show for you this 5 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:31,620 week. In this episode, I chat with Maya Waluchem and Sela 6 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:37,620 Soom, two coauthors of the AI Factory, Datacenter's Power, and 7 00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:41,915 Resistance in Late Industrial Pennsylvania, a report published 8 00:00:41,915 --> 00:00:45,515 at the end of last month by Data and Society. We discuss 9 00:00:45,515 --> 00:00:49,595 Pennsylvania as a growing focus of the data center construction 10 00:00:49,595 --> 00:00:54,635 boom, how its environment and history make it a prime target, 11 00:00:54,715 --> 00:00:59,590 but also uniquely positioned to fight back against tech, against 12 00:00:59,590 --> 00:01:03,110 government, against prevailing narratives about the 13 00:01:03,110 --> 00:01:08,310 inevitability of certain flavors of tech progress. But first, 14 00:01:08,595 --> 00:01:10,035 we're gonna take a quick break. 15 00:01:10,035 --> 00:01:12,515 You're gonna listen to some ads unless you're on the member 16 00:01:12,515 --> 00:01:15,555 feed. And when we return, we're gonna talk about a few of the 17 00:01:15,555 --> 00:01:18,835 things that have happened since the last time you heard from us. 18 00:01:20,035 --> 00:01:23,280 Raw. I'm a give it to you. No trivia. 19 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Raw like that Aesop Rock iron fisted bliss militia. A bent 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:32,735 funny bone drone community. Spit a thousand and six stories this 21 00:01:32,735 --> 00:01:38,735 week. ICE, The US domestic paramilitary force responsible 22 00:01:38,735 --> 00:01:43,615 according to its own reporting for at least forty six deaths in 23 00:01:43,615 --> 00:01:48,490 custody or detention since January 2025 needs to be 24 00:01:48,490 --> 00:01:53,130 careful. The FBI reports that groups of Internet women are 25 00:01:53,130 --> 00:01:58,330 scheming to lure agents with trad wife content, befriend, and 26 00:01:58,330 --> 00:01:59,370 then dox them. 27 00:01:59,655 --> 00:02:03,975 The Guardian, broke this story, reviewed the FBI's report and 28 00:02:03,975 --> 00:02:06,855 they say it's light on the details. Who are these women? 29 00:02:06,855 --> 00:02:11,095 What are their aims? And how were they uncovered? Ladies, if 30 00:02:11,095 --> 00:02:12,775 you're out there, get in touch. 31 00:02:14,460 --> 00:02:19,900 Discord is once again having a go at age verification. The San 32 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:22,860 Francisco based company attempted earlier this year to 33 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:26,620 roll out a version of this feature. Every account would be 34 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:31,035 set to teen unless the holder provided age verification via, 35 00:02:31,035 --> 00:02:35,035 quote, facial age estimation. Users could upload a video 36 00:02:35,035 --> 00:02:39,950 selfie or photo of photo identification. Users, of 37 00:02:39,950 --> 00:02:44,830 course, balked, especially in the wake of an October 2025 data 38 00:02:44,830 --> 00:02:49,790 breach during which 70 some odd thousand users, quote, may have 39 00:02:49,790 --> 00:02:53,805 had government ID photos exposed, which our vendor used 40 00:02:53,805 --> 00:02:57,245 to review age related appeals, end quote. 41 00:02:57,725 --> 00:03:01,605 This most recent go around, which began rollout on September 42 00:03:01,605 --> 00:03:05,565 23, will accept many forms of age verification, but most 43 00:03:05,565 --> 00:03:09,340 notably will use cryptically named set of quote account 44 00:03:09,340 --> 00:03:13,100 signals to automatically determine the age group of some 45 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:17,820 accounts. The rollout, many users noted, also coincides with 46 00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:21,925 in app ads for age restricted services such as online gambling 47 00:03:21,925 --> 00:03:26,165 site FanDuel. About this, Discord claims they are taking a 48 00:03:26,165 --> 00:03:30,645 deliberate user first approach to evolving our ads business to 49 00:03:30,645 --> 00:03:34,810 add genuine value that connects naturally with our users' 50 00:03:34,810 --> 00:03:39,130 sports, gaming, and entertainment interests. A fart 51 00:03:39,130 --> 00:03:41,210 noise. Oops. 52 00:03:41,770 --> 00:03:45,130 An OpenAI agent did it again. At the end of September, the 53 00:03:45,130 --> 00:03:48,855 Australian government revealed that earlier in June, an OpenAI 54 00:03:48,855 --> 00:03:53,975 agent was able to gain access to a government health data portal 55 00:03:53,975 --> 00:03:57,575 while it was meant to be researching public medical 56 00:03:57,575 --> 00:04:02,295 spending. Australian PM Anthony Albanese said OpenAI was the one 57 00:04:02,295 --> 00:04:07,530 to notify the government and did not do so until September 10. 58 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:11,370 OpenAI has claimed its review found no evidence of patient 59 00:04:11,370 --> 00:04:15,050 records being accessed. This is the first known case of an agent 60 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:17,965 accessing private government data. 61 00:04:17,965 --> 00:04:23,565 I'm sorry. Air traffic was grounded in and around New York, 62 00:04:23,565 --> 00:04:26,605 New Jersey, and Philadelphia on Monday afternoon after New 63 00:04:26,605 --> 00:04:30,205 Jersey transit construction workers accidentally severed a 64 00:04:30,205 --> 00:04:34,310 fiber optic cable connecting air traffic control around the 65 00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:38,470 region. Twice last year, traffic was halted or delayed because of 66 00:04:38,470 --> 00:04:42,230 communications issues with old copper based wires connecting 67 00:04:42,230 --> 00:04:45,670 control towers. In May of this year, the Trump administration 68 00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:49,225 pledged billions of dollars to modernize the country's air 69 00:04:49,225 --> 00:04:52,425 traffic control system. In February of this year, the admin 70 00:04:52,425 --> 00:04:57,065 laid off several 100 air traffic controllers amidst what PBS then 71 00:04:57,145 --> 00:04:59,945 described as a shortfall in controllers. 72 00:05:00,450 --> 00:05:04,370 The admin has also lowered its FAA hiring target for the year 73 00:05:04,370 --> 00:05:14,370 by 2,000 people. Your ISP may be required to block, quote, piracy 74 00:05:14,370 --> 00:05:19,575 sites if a bill proposed by US rep Daryl Isa becomes law. The 75 00:05:19,575 --> 00:05:24,855 bill targets US based ISPs, DNS providers, and VPN services with 76 00:05:24,855 --> 00:05:29,510 a 100,000 or more monthly users in The US. Copyright holders 77 00:05:29,510 --> 00:05:33,030 could ask courts to issue blocking orders against quote, 78 00:05:33,030 --> 00:05:37,670 foreign piracy sites after which ISPs at all would have to remove 79 00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:41,190 access. The text of the bill describes such sites as 80 00:05:41,445 --> 00:05:44,725 primarily designed or provided for the purpose of providing 81 00:05:44,725 --> 00:05:48,565 access to material that violates an exclusive right or protection 82 00:05:48,565 --> 00:05:51,925 afforded under this title, having only limited commercially 83 00:05:51,925 --> 00:05:55,060 significant purpose or use other than providing access to 84 00:05:55,060 --> 00:05:58,340 material that violates an exclusive right or protection 85 00:05:58,340 --> 00:06:02,580 afforded under this title, or marketed by or at the direction 86 00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:06,260 of the operator of the accused online service to promote the 87 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:09,435 use of the foreign online service in committing violation 88 00:06:09,435 --> 00:06:12,875 of an exclusive right or protection afforded under this 89 00:06:12,875 --> 00:06:13,435 title. 90 00:06:13,675 --> 00:06:17,035 Opponents say the proposed law, the text of which has only 91 00:06:17,035 --> 00:06:20,875 recently become available, is overbroad and as with much 92 00:06:20,875 --> 00:06:24,630 recent proposed Internet regulation is ripe for abuse and 93 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:28,630 would serve to harm really only the already vulnerable. The 94 00:06:28,630 --> 00:06:31,510 Electronic Frontier Foundation, Fight for the Future, Public 95 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:35,110 Knowledge, and others signed a letter to ISA which reads in 96 00:06:35,110 --> 00:06:38,675 part, small businesses and nonprofits face the greatest 97 00:06:38,675 --> 00:06:42,115 risks and have the fewest protections. In Italy, 98 00:06:42,115 --> 00:06:44,835 overblocking has brought down digital infrastructure for 99 00:06:44,835 --> 00:06:49,395 hotels, car mechanics, retail shops, telehealth programs, and 100 00:06:49,395 --> 00:06:53,950 even a nunnery. The ones bearing the cost of overblocking are the 101 00:06:53,950 --> 00:06:58,350 ones least poised to bear it and the ones who have no remedy for 102 00:06:58,350 --> 00:07:02,590 the days or weeks or more of lost business that results from 103 00:07:02,590 --> 00:07:06,270 an overzealous blocking order. America's small businesses 104 00:07:06,355 --> 00:07:10,835 cannot afford to be treated as acceptable collateral damage for 105 00:07:10,835 --> 00:07:13,395 multibillion dollar entertainment and sports 106 00:07:13,395 --> 00:07:14,275 industries. 107 00:07:14,675 --> 00:07:18,035 Ars Technica reports that the Motion Picture Association has 108 00:07:18,035 --> 00:07:21,075 been pushing the US government to implement such a blocking 109 00:07:21,075 --> 00:07:25,960 regime. ISA retires from congress this year. Moron. 110 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,440 Microsoft has ghosted a church group in Indiana after they 111 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:35,655 asked the tech giant what percent of a new data center's 112 00:07:35,655 --> 00:07:41,655 yearly operating costs would be fair as a donation back to the 113 00:07:41,655 --> 00:07:45,975 community where it would be built. Ars Technica reports we 114 00:07:45,975 --> 00:07:50,120 make Indiana was originally planning to ask Microsoft for 115 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,520 one to 2% of the yearly operating budget of a new 116 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,160 $1,000,000,000 data center to be built in South Bend, Indiana, 117 00:07:59,785 --> 00:08:05,145 But they decided instead to ask the company for its proposal. 118 00:08:05,225 --> 00:08:09,225 How much money does Microsoft think should go back to the 119 00:08:09,225 --> 00:08:13,465 town? Despite Microsoft's promises to support the 120 00:08:13,465 --> 00:08:17,420 community, they have provided no guarantees and representatives 121 00:08:17,420 --> 00:08:21,020 have been unable to answer even basic questions about the 122 00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:24,220 environmental impact of the construction or ongoing 123 00:08:24,220 --> 00:08:28,205 operation of the data center. Meanwhile, in Hazel Township, 124 00:08:28,205 --> 00:08:31,725 Pennsylvania, North Point development sent letters to 125 00:08:31,725 --> 00:08:38,365 10,460 households promising a $10,000 check if a new data 126 00:08:38,365 --> 00:08:42,390 center development project is approved. Regardless, most 127 00:08:42,390 --> 00:08:46,790 residents remain against, citing according to the New York Post 128 00:08:46,790 --> 00:08:51,590 concerns over pollution and job loss due to AI generally. Town 129 00:08:51,590 --> 00:08:55,055 officials described the check scheme as a, quote, cutting edge 130 00:08:55,055 --> 00:08:58,335 strategy in the process of getting resident buy in. 131 00:08:58,495 --> 00:09:02,735 But locals are unswayed, one telling the Post, quote, we 132 00:09:02,735 --> 00:09:39,580 don't need that around here. One gets the sense in both scenarios 133 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:43,820 like countless others that tech giants are frustrated by the 134 00:09:43,820 --> 00:09:48,860 demands or perhaps even the mere existence of people. People who 135 00:09:48,860 --> 00:09:53,015 live and go to work and school and have families nearby the 136 00:09:53,015 --> 00:09:57,255 proposed sites of gargantuan facilities wherein they'll 137 00:09:57,255 --> 00:10:00,615 facilitate health care coverage denials, ICE immigration 138 00:10:00,615 --> 00:10:03,575 enforcement, and that new meta agent that apparently tells 139 00:10:03,575 --> 00:10:09,070 strangers your home address. How dare the folks in the shadows 140 00:10:09,150 --> 00:10:13,870 amongst the din of breathing in the particulate filled air 141 00:10:13,870 --> 00:10:18,510 spewed by these facilities wonder what's in this for me? 142 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:22,405 The negotiation is of course always unbalanced. 143 00:10:22,485 --> 00:10:24,805 Tech companies, their construction partners, 144 00:10:24,805 --> 00:10:28,485 hyperscalers, they have all the money and the ear of local 145 00:10:28,485 --> 00:10:33,205 government as well as media and even some unions. Fighting back 146 00:10:33,205 --> 00:10:39,250 or fighting for something, some return is no easy task. After 147 00:10:39,250 --> 00:10:43,170 the break, I'm gonna talk with Maya Waluchem and Selah m Soom, 148 00:10:43,170 --> 00:10:47,090 authors of the recent data and society report, The AI Factory, 149 00:10:47,425 --> 00:10:51,025 Data Centers, Power, and Resistance in Late Industrial 150 00:10:51,025 --> 00:10:56,305 Pennsylvania about the ongoing data center construction boom in 151 00:10:56,305 --> 00:11:00,065 Pennsylvania and how Pennsylvania's history as a home 152 00:11:00,065 --> 00:11:05,250 to industry makes it a uniquely suited site for both data center 153 00:11:05,250 --> 00:11:33,740 development and data center resistance. Joining me are Maya 154 00:11:33,740 --> 00:11:36,940 Waluchem, the director of the Trustworthy Infrastructures 155 00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:42,055 Program at Data and Society, and adjunct faculty at NYU's Tandon 156 00:11:42,055 --> 00:11:45,895 School of Engineering. Her work as a researcher and technologist 157 00:11:45,895 --> 00:11:49,255 focuses on how communities reassert power over the 158 00:11:49,255 --> 00:11:51,335 technology foisted upon them. 159 00:11:51,335 --> 00:11:52,695 Maia, thanks for joining us. 160 00:11:53,270 --> 00:11:54,630 Maia Woluchem: Thank you for having me. 161 00:11:54,950 --> 00:11:58,870 Mike Rugnetta: And Cella M Sum, who is a postdoctoral research 162 00:11:58,870 --> 00:12:02,230 fellow at the University of Virginia's Digital Technology 163 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:06,630 for Democracy Lab. Sela is a member of Collective Action in 164 00:12:06,630 --> 00:12:10,565 Tech, a research and organizing project aimed at tech workers 165 00:12:10,565 --> 00:12:14,725 and a former tech worker organizer herself with Big 166 00:12:14,725 --> 00:12:19,045 Cartel Workers Union. Sela's research focuses on technology, 167 00:12:19,045 --> 00:12:23,420 power, and resistance in labor and community contexts. Sella, 168 00:12:23,420 --> 00:12:24,460 thanks for being here. 169 00:12:24,860 --> 00:12:26,620 Cella Sum: Thank you. Happy to be here. 170 00:12:26,940 --> 00:12:30,060 Mike Rugnetta: So both of you are coauthors of the recently 171 00:12:30,060 --> 00:12:35,175 published report from Data and Society, The AI Factory, Data 172 00:12:35,175 --> 00:12:39,335 Centers, Power and Resistance in Late Industrial Pennsylvania. 173 00:12:39,655 --> 00:12:43,495 The report looks closely at a number of communities in 174 00:12:43,495 --> 00:12:47,415 Pennsylvania where people are figuring out how to build, 175 00:12:47,415 --> 00:12:52,280 support, and sustain local resistance to, data center 176 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,760 construction projects, mostly through grassroots means. And 177 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,320 before we get into all of, the conclusions that you come to in 178 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,215 the report, which are just just great, and I cannot recommend 179 00:13:04,215 --> 00:13:07,095 highly enough that anybody listening to this go and read 180 00:13:07,095 --> 00:13:10,055 it. To start us off, was just wondering if you could just, 181 00:13:10,055 --> 00:13:15,095 like, take us through the numbers as far as the research 182 00:13:15,095 --> 00:13:18,560 that went into this report. Like, How long did you spend on 183 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:19,040 it? 184 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,200 How many train rides? How many interviews? How many diners? 185 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,280 What was the process like? 186 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,320 Maia Woluchem: Oh, that's such a great question. I I will say it 187 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,805 was a real labor of love. A laborious one, but a real labor 188 00:13:32,805 --> 00:13:37,925 of love the entire way through. So we started our first... We 189 00:13:37,925 --> 00:13:41,045 took our first trip in November 2024. 190 00:13:41,045 --> 00:13:44,325 So this is the first week right after the presidential election. 191 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,640 We, as a team, took four trips together across a full week 192 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,840 across the state between November 2024 and I think it was 193 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:01,535 April 2026. But in that time, we had many many many intermediary 194 00:14:01,775 --> 00:14:06,975 moments in between. We have a few folks who are residential to 195 00:14:06,975 --> 00:14:10,490 Pennsylvania, so we're going out on their own time. We stood we 196 00:14:10,490 --> 00:14:12,410 sat in many many coalition meetings. 197 00:14:12,410 --> 00:14:16,410 We went to a bunch of industry conferences. We, were in many 198 00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:21,370 municipal meetings as well. I think over the course of our two 199 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:25,745 years, we, talked to almost 50 people on record and many many 200 00:14:25,745 --> 00:14:31,265 more sort of ambiently through the course of our our time, 201 00:14:31,265 --> 00:14:34,785 which included folks that we talked to while door knocking, 202 00:14:34,785 --> 00:14:37,025 folks that we talked to while organizing, folks that we talked 203 00:14:37,025 --> 00:14:41,150 to while trying to engage with sort of industry folks and many 204 00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:42,110 people in between. But 205 00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:44,030 Mike Rugnetta: I love the story of... There's like... Was it a 206 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:47,470 former mayor that you met just like sort of circumstantially 207 00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:48,990 while eating lunch? 208 00:14:49,230 --> 00:14:52,350 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. We went to Cuffy's Diner in... Right 209 00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:55,575 outside of 3 Mile Island, which actually was recommended to us 210 00:14:55,575 --> 00:15:00,535 by an uncle of one of our teammates on the team, who is a 211 00:15:00,535 --> 00:15:03,975 long long long time resident of Central Pennsylvania. But, yes, 212 00:15:03,975 --> 00:15:08,670 Kuppie's Diner was a really instrumental sort of site 213 00:15:08,670 --> 00:15:11,550 wherein journalists... Where journalists went to right after 214 00:15:11,550 --> 00:15:15,390 the Three Mile Island disaster and it's still a real sort of 215 00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:16,990 home for the community today. 216 00:15:16,990 --> 00:15:19,950 The mayor who was mayor at the time of that disaster was 217 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:23,265 sitting at the bar the first time that we went to go get 218 00:15:23,265 --> 00:15:27,025 pancakes and eggs. And, yeah, we got to talk to so many people 219 00:15:27,025 --> 00:15:30,785 that day about sort of what 3 Mile Island meant to them, what 220 00:15:30,785 --> 00:15:34,465 they think about sort of Microsoft's plan to open it back 221 00:15:34,465 --> 00:15:36,465 up again, and many other things about being a central 222 00:15:36,465 --> 00:15:37,025 Pennsylvanian. 223 00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:41,190 Mike Rugnetta: And if I understand, you... So there were 224 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:45,750 a number of reasons that you all took Pennsylvania as your focus 225 00:15:45,750 --> 00:15:50,470 for this report. One of them being that each of you has a 226 00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:53,670 connection to the state in one way or another. Is that right? 227 00:15:53,885 --> 00:15:58,125 Cella Sum: Yeah. I grew up in Central Pennsylvania, where a 228 00:15:58,125 --> 00:16:04,525 large data center development is starting, PACS 1, which is about 229 00:16:04,525 --> 00:16:08,045 five miles away from my mom's house. And so when I first heard 230 00:16:08,045 --> 00:16:14,060 about it, I knew that I wanted to get involved. But I also am a 231 00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:18,060 recent PhD graduate from Carnegie Mellon University. The 232 00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:21,685 whole development around data centers came on my radar when 233 00:16:21,685 --> 00:16:26,245 there was the AI and energy summit, last year in July where 234 00:16:26,245 --> 00:16:31,125 president Trump and senator, McCormick basically announced 235 00:16:31,125 --> 00:16:34,565 $90,000,000,000 of investment to data center and AI 236 00:16:34,565 --> 00:16:35,125 infrastructure. 237 00:16:35,780 --> 00:16:39,220 This was a closed door event where many students and faculty 238 00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:44,340 were barred from campus that day. At the same day, there were 239 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:48,020 protests around, president Trump. There was a stop to 240 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:53,305 summit rally. And so I think this was the moment where a lot 241 00:16:53,305 --> 00:16:56,905 of people in Pennsylvania started to recognize what was 242 00:16:56,905 --> 00:17:00,265 happening. And that's when I started to get involved. 243 00:17:00,265 --> 00:17:03,620 And, thankfully, Maya was looking for a research assistant 244 00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:08,100 around that same time. I jumped at the moment of getting on this 245 00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:12,980 project because not only, do I have personal ties to it, but 246 00:17:12,980 --> 00:17:16,895 based off of my own research around community risklessness to 247 00:17:16,895 --> 00:17:20,975 AI, data centers have been one of the central points that have 248 00:17:21,295 --> 00:17:25,135 gathered so many different people on the ground. And so 249 00:17:25,135 --> 00:17:29,830 that moment was really exciting. And I I I think Maya had the 250 00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:33,670 foresight even a year before that to see what was going on. 251 00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:37,270 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. Thank you, Sela. I I really... It's... What 252 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:41,350 Sela mentioned is so true that I think for so many of us on the 253 00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:45,405 team, there were a team of five of us plus, know, a few babies 254 00:17:45,485 --> 00:17:47,965 who were part of this research team. 255 00:17:47,965 --> 00:17:52,685 And, you know, it was a real joy to get to really experience this 256 00:17:52,685 --> 00:17:55,500 place that we have all experienced in many ways either 257 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:59,100 in the public discourse, either, you know, every four years on 258 00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,180 Pennsylvania suddenly, you know, the state that we're all paying 259 00:18:01,180 --> 00:18:04,380 attention to because of election season or because our, you know, 260 00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:07,875 of our deep connections. I'm a graduate of the University of 261 00:18:07,875 --> 00:18:12,595 Pittsburgh, undergrad at least, and I I really, you know, have 262 00:18:12,595 --> 00:18:16,355 been such a beneficiary over time of the public investment 263 00:18:16,355 --> 00:18:20,355 that has happened across the history of Pennsylvania, the 264 00:18:20,355 --> 00:18:24,950 Commonwealth Of Pennsylvania. And so really, you know, we had 265 00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:29,270 a a question and really trying to interrogate what it meant for 266 00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:34,550 this state that has given us, you know, home, education, this 267 00:18:34,550 --> 00:18:37,845 real sense of history in our own personal lives. What it meant 268 00:18:37,845 --> 00:18:42,645 for that state to be sort of used as an exemplary vision of 269 00:18:42,645 --> 00:18:46,165 what AI was supposed to mean to this country in general. So for 270 00:18:46,165 --> 00:18:48,405 our other teammates who aren't also here, you know, we have a 271 00:18:48,405 --> 00:18:49,605 teammate who lives in Philadelphia. 272 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,480 We have another who is a fourth generation, Pittsburgher. We 273 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,000 have, another who spent, her entire academic career really 274 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,640 studying the relationship of AI to industrial history, and it 275 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,955 really felt like, you know, we got the opportunity to come home 276 00:19:05,955 --> 00:19:08,515 to think about, you know, the places that we knew in this 277 00:19:08,515 --> 00:19:12,915 particular way and really try to examine them with as many skills 278 00:19:12,915 --> 00:19:15,395 as we've acquired since the time that we first arrived in 279 00:19:15,395 --> 00:19:16,115 Pennsylvania. 280 00:19:16,115 --> 00:19:17,555 Mike Rugnetta: I mean, yeah, kinda like you're describing 281 00:19:17,555 --> 00:19:20,630 like a dream team for doing this kind of work, it sounds like. 282 00:19:21,030 --> 00:19:23,830 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. It was very... We got a lot of time in 283 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:27,110 the car together. I feel like it really made us stronger. 284 00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:30,550 Mike Rugnetta: One thing that you mentioned in the report too 285 00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:37,835 is that Pennsylvania has 71 active and 66 proposed data 286 00:19:37,835 --> 00:19:41,035 center sites throughout the state. So this is very much a 287 00:19:41,035 --> 00:19:46,955 kind of, like, in progress development boom, you know, I 288 00:19:46,955 --> 00:19:49,470 guess, as everybody has been calling it. I was just wondering 289 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:52,350 if you could situate that. Like, is that a lot? 290 00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:56,110 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. There are a few other states that, you know, 291 00:19:56,110 --> 00:20:00,030 I think are often pointed to as sort of the leaders of this, you 292 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:03,470 know, big AI boom. Virginia is one. Virginia has the highest 293 00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:07,525 concentration in the country. Texas is another. 294 00:20:07,525 --> 00:20:11,285 There are many... I believe Pennsylvania might be somewhere 295 00:20:11,285 --> 00:20:12,165 in the top. 296 00:20:12,165 --> 00:20:15,205 Cella Sum: I was gonna guess. I don't know the actual numbers, 297 00:20:15,205 --> 00:20:18,405 but I feel like it's one of the fastest emerging ones, but 298 00:20:18,405 --> 00:20:22,260 not... Certainly not the one state that has the most data 299 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:23,060 centers. 300 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:25,860 Maia Woluchem: Where I think Pennsylvania really, you know, 301 00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:30,500 is important to the broader US picture is that it has some, 302 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:34,260 unique qualities that give it a real narrative meaning. So 303 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:37,615 Pennsylvania sits on the Marcellus Shale. That is a huge 304 00:20:37,615 --> 00:20:41,775 energy source for a lot of the, data center boom that is 305 00:20:41,775 --> 00:20:46,255 projected across the state. I think also because it lands 306 00:20:46,255 --> 00:20:50,540 every two to four years as a sort of beacon of American 307 00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:56,460 industrialism when it comes to, the election season. You know, 308 00:20:56,460 --> 00:20:59,900 federal leaders are in Pennsylvania often trying many 309 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:05,575 of these, narrative pieces that build up the parts of the AI 310 00:21:05,575 --> 00:21:08,375 race that is, you know, taking place nationally. 311 00:21:08,535 --> 00:21:11,975 So I think Pennsylvania, even if it's not necessarily, you know, 312 00:21:11,975 --> 00:21:15,980 the highest concentration or, you know, the biggest, you know, 313 00:21:15,980 --> 00:21:20,220 rising force. I think it is a bellwether for where many of the 314 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:22,540 arguments that are landing across the country are going to 315 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:25,980 go. And part of the reason that, you know, we really felt it was 316 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:31,365 important to be there now before it rises in public, the public 317 00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:32,165 imagination. 318 00:21:32,165 --> 00:21:35,445 Cella Sum: I would also say that, the Pennsylvania 319 00:21:35,445 --> 00:21:39,925 administration is trying to position Pennsylvania as an AI 320 00:21:39,925 --> 00:21:46,770 ready ready state. I think it was ranked top three states for 321 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:50,610 AI readiness, as far as incorporating government 322 00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:56,385 services, using AI. And so there was a big push from the public 323 00:21:56,385 --> 00:22:02,865 administration at the very top to welcome AI, and that includes 324 00:22:02,865 --> 00:22:04,785 data centers and AI infrastructure. 325 00:22:05,105 --> 00:22:07,265 Mike Rugnetta: Got it. Can you take me through in a little bit 326 00:22:07,265 --> 00:22:10,065 more detail what AI readiness is? 327 00:22:10,660 --> 00:22:14,020 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. I mean, it's it's a it is a real 328 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:17,700 question. You know? I think that vision of what AI means 329 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:21,380 increasingly, you know, has just become muddy over the course of 330 00:22:21,380 --> 00:22:25,665 the two years that we've been out in the road. You know, when 331 00:22:25,665 --> 00:22:28,385 it comes to data centers, I think it can be just as much 332 00:22:28,385 --> 00:22:31,345 about infrastructure as it is about energy, as it is about 333 00:22:31,345 --> 00:22:31,905 labor. 334 00:22:31,905 --> 00:22:36,545 You know, so much of what we imagine, the wins from AI to be 335 00:22:36,545 --> 00:22:40,190 sort of in the realm of infrastructure work often comes 336 00:22:40,190 --> 00:22:46,830 down to, you know, supposed jobs or, revenue that can come from 337 00:22:46,830 --> 00:22:50,110 this investment by big tech companies in these small towns. 338 00:22:50,110 --> 00:22:53,305 So perhaps, you know, positioning oneself as as really 339 00:22:53,305 --> 00:22:56,265 ready to accept that infrastructure might be one 340 00:22:56,425 --> 00:22:59,065 element of what it means to be AI ready. You know? Yeah. 341 00:22:59,065 --> 00:23:04,505 Another version might be, we're able to use these tools, you 342 00:23:04,505 --> 00:23:07,990 know, in public service, within government offices, you know, 343 00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:09,910 within our educational institutions. 344 00:23:10,150 --> 00:23:13,270 What we saw in that, announcement that Sela 345 00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:16,310 referenced earlier that $90,000,000,000 that, was 346 00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:22,625 announced in July 2025. There are, sort of signals all over 347 00:23:22,625 --> 00:23:27,025 the map about what presumably AI means to the state. There are... 348 00:23:27,265 --> 00:23:29,665 There's funding that's going towards Carnegie Mellon and 349 00:23:29,665 --> 00:23:33,185 other, you know, institutions to start training programs. There's 350 00:23:33,265 --> 00:23:36,470 money going towards, you know, developing the energy grid to 351 00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:36,790 be... 352 00:23:36,790 --> 00:23:40,390 To allow, you know, more energy to be flowing for these data 353 00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:43,670 centers when they finally do come online. So it is money, 354 00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:48,630 perhaps maybe intentionally so. If it's, you know Right. Allows 355 00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:52,785 us to sort of project whatever you might want onto what AI 356 00:23:52,785 --> 00:23:54,225 readiness looks like. 357 00:23:54,385 --> 00:23:57,265 Mike Rugnetta: AI readiness means per... A potential 358 00:23:57,265 --> 00:23:59,345 readiness to cash some checks. 359 00:23:59,505 --> 00:24:00,545 Maia Woluchem: Sure. Okay. 360 00:24:00,545 --> 00:24:03,670 Mike Rugnetta: Got it. You do talk in the report. It's sort of 361 00:24:03,670 --> 00:24:06,390 like... It is both its own section and something that comes 362 00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:08,870 up again and again throughout the reporting that, like, 363 00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:14,710 Pennsylvania does provide a really particular arrangement of 364 00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:22,245 both natural and labor resources that is sort of unique in a way. 365 00:24:22,805 --> 00:24:26,405 And I was wondering if you could just, like, take us through what 366 00:24:26,405 --> 00:24:27,445 exactly that means. 367 00:24:27,445 --> 00:24:30,180 Like, what are the natural resources that are available 368 00:24:30,180 --> 00:24:33,220 that, you know, you don't find in other places where there's an 369 00:24:33,220 --> 00:24:37,540 AI boom happening? And then what is the sort of labor aspect of 370 00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:38,100 that? 371 00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:41,060 Maia Woluchem: I think we can start by thinking of sort of, 372 00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:44,180 you know, what Pennsylvania means to this American story. 373 00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:47,675 And hear it every four years that, you know, Pennsylvania is 374 00:24:47,675 --> 00:24:50,875 the home of American industrialism, that it was so 375 00:24:50,875 --> 00:24:55,115 important to, you know, steel, coal, etcetera. But what we 376 00:24:55,115 --> 00:25:00,780 often leave out in that sort of storytelling is that after those 377 00:25:01,420 --> 00:25:04,220 companies went under and the industrialization happened in 378 00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:08,300 the, you know, mid twentieth century, so many of those assets 379 00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:12,345 are left on the land. You know, we talked to an interviewee who 380 00:25:12,345 --> 00:25:15,945 said, you know, Pennsylvania is home to America's trash. It just 381 00:25:15,945 --> 00:25:18,425 has, you know, tons of fracking wells that are sitting in 382 00:25:18,425 --> 00:25:19,305 people's backyards. 383 00:25:19,305 --> 00:25:23,545 It has tons of empty coal mines that have been collecting water 384 00:25:23,545 --> 00:25:28,180 across time. All sorts of, you know, infrastructure that's now 385 00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:32,820 being retooled for this data center boom. And so, you know, 386 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:37,540 in some ways, some might say that actually that that layering 387 00:25:37,540 --> 00:25:41,145 of these old infrastructural sort of ghosts is one of the 388 00:25:41,145 --> 00:25:43,945 things that makes Pennsylvania really unique and really 389 00:25:43,945 --> 00:25:47,705 targeted for data center development. And we see that in 390 00:25:47,705 --> 00:25:50,345 a lot of ways in some of the projects that have been... Have 391 00:25:50,345 --> 00:25:51,465 gotten the most attention. 392 00:25:51,465 --> 00:25:56,640 You know, through Mile Island is the site of the largest US 393 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:03,360 nuclear disaster in history. And in 2024, it was, you know, big 394 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,320 in the headlines because Microsoft bought the reactors at 395 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,925 3 Mile Island to use to support their data center boom. And so I 396 00:26:10,925 --> 00:26:13,805 would argue that's one of the... And it's what we argue in the in 397 00:26:13,805 --> 00:26:18,445 the piece that, you know, this lasting legacy of industrialism 398 00:26:18,445 --> 00:26:23,180 not only leaves these physical manifestations, but also this 399 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:27,180 kind of nostalgic piece that makes the labor components of 400 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:33,020 this AI boom really salient. Salla mentioned that conference 401 00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:37,100 in 2020 or 2025 that was behind closed doors where Trump, 402 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:41,395 governor Shapiro, many senator McCormick, and many industry 403 00:26:41,395 --> 00:26:45,315 leaders met to talk about this big AI boom and what this could 404 00:26:45,315 --> 00:26:47,315 mean for Pennsylvania communities. 405 00:26:47,635 --> 00:26:50,915 And, you know, often when they do that, they talk about the 406 00:26:50,915 --> 00:26:55,020 labor that they expect to come from this. You know, they'll 407 00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:58,140 say, well, it's huge in construction jobs because we 408 00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:01,420 need people to build these data centers. Or, well, you know, 409 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:05,020 it's really, you know, it's our patriotic duty to be part of 410 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:09,205 this new industrial revolution, which is pulling on this long 411 00:27:09,205 --> 00:27:13,765 history of these incredible unions that formed when these 412 00:27:13,765 --> 00:27:16,245 industries were, you know, particularly strong. But that is 413 00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:19,590 not necessarily the picture that we have today. You know, 414 00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:21,750 Pennsylvania's strongest unions are in care work. 415 00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:26,870 They're not necessarily in, you know, steel workers and iron 416 00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:31,030 workers, which, you know, in many ways is a loss for so many 417 00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:35,845 of these communities that, you know, built an identity and an 418 00:27:35,845 --> 00:27:40,565 economy around these things. But it also is a little bit thin. 419 00:27:40,965 --> 00:27:46,165 You know, we talked to a few of those folks who are part of 420 00:27:46,165 --> 00:27:51,510 those unions and, you know, they have said, even if this is a 421 00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:54,870 bubble, you know, and we presume it might be because, you know, 422 00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:58,230 we don't know what's gonna happen, you know, in the future. 423 00:27:58,230 --> 00:28:01,430 But it's a very thin window for us to expand our ranks and maybe 424 00:28:01,430 --> 00:28:05,405 this time won't come again. So it is a bit confusing that I 425 00:28:05,405 --> 00:28:10,525 think, you know, so much of this expansion is based on things 426 00:28:10,525 --> 00:28:11,565 that have happened in the past. 427 00:28:11,565 --> 00:28:13,965 It's based on the industries that we need to come back. It's 428 00:28:13,965 --> 00:28:17,005 based on these unions that we need to, you know, sort of rise 429 00:28:17,005 --> 00:28:21,100 again, but it's not a very complete answer to any of that 430 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:25,340 loss and any of that, sort of trauma that many of these 431 00:28:25,340 --> 00:28:27,980 communities have been experiencing over the past, you 432 00:28:27,980 --> 00:28:29,260 know, many many decades. 433 00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:35,245 Cella Sum: Yeah. I I do think that there is excitement at the 434 00:28:35,245 --> 00:28:39,965 very least. The data centers do not house, very many workers 435 00:28:39,965 --> 00:28:42,765 within it, and, obviously, there's construction jobs. But, 436 00:28:42,925 --> 00:28:47,405 in talking with some of the union union folks, from the 437 00:28:47,405 --> 00:28:51,460 building trades, they're really excited about the huge energy 438 00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:56,420 projects, like 3 Mile Island, like the gas plant and coal 439 00:28:56,420 --> 00:29:01,460 plants that will be driving a lot of, the electricity that 440 00:29:01,460 --> 00:29:05,625 will be used to power data center. So it may not be data 441 00:29:05,625 --> 00:29:10,025 centers themselves that, may create those long term jobs, 442 00:29:10,025 --> 00:29:14,585 but, they did reason, you know, one of the things with the 3 443 00:29:14,585 --> 00:29:18,665 Mile Island opening is that these are, like, twenty, fifty 444 00:29:18,665 --> 00:29:20,980 year projects that can be sustained. 445 00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:24,820 And so I think that's why a lot of the building trades and 446 00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:30,020 construction, and energy folks are really excited, because they 447 00:29:30,020 --> 00:29:33,540 do see that as, leading to sustainable jobs. 448 00:29:34,265 --> 00:29:36,425 Maia Woluchem: I think that's right. And I I would also say, 449 00:29:36,425 --> 00:29:40,985 you know, I I I feel it's speaking in some way to the kind 450 00:29:40,985 --> 00:29:47,705 of precarity of a lot of these sort of local economies that we 451 00:29:47,705 --> 00:29:54,180 have, you know, so many towns across the Commonwealth who's... 452 00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:58,180 Who are sort of over indexed in a in a way on a particular type 453 00:29:58,180 --> 00:30:02,980 of industry. We stopped in many towns where, you know, we would 454 00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:06,315 speak to folks who would say, you know, that coal plant went 455 00:30:06,315 --> 00:30:10,155 under or that nuclear plant went under and that really 456 00:30:10,155 --> 00:30:14,395 tremendously changed the sort of foundations of this town. So 457 00:30:14,395 --> 00:30:15,115 many people left. 458 00:30:15,115 --> 00:30:17,835 So many people haven't found jobs since then. And so there 459 00:30:18,155 --> 00:30:24,100 there is, you know, real material, to that nostalgia that 460 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:29,540 even if, you know, that promise on a space is very thin, that, 461 00:30:29,540 --> 00:30:32,180 you know, the data center will come, it's gonna have 10 jobs 462 00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:36,675 fine, you know, but as sellers mentioned going again. Yeah. 463 00:30:36,675 --> 00:30:40,035 Exactly. The power plant will get going again and that might, 464 00:30:40,115 --> 00:30:42,435 you know, give us another opportunity forward. 465 00:30:42,435 --> 00:30:47,200 So it it does create, I think then, this really muddying 466 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,320 effect for municipalities, for residents, for folks who, you 467 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,960 know, over the course of that two years, we're really trying 468 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,240 to figure out what actually is the meaning of this big data 469 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,635 center boom. I'm hearing that there are jobs available. I'm 470 00:31:01,635 --> 00:31:05,475 also hearing that maybe, you know, I might not have water or 471 00:31:05,475 --> 00:31:09,875 may or Right. You know, these are, you know, hugely polluting 472 00:31:09,875 --> 00:31:11,555 fossil fuel. Like, it's it's just... 473 00:31:11,555 --> 00:31:18,150 It's very hard then for municipal leaders who in some 474 00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:22,950 ways are really caught unawares at this to to... At least in the 475 00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:26,870 early days to turn down the amount of money that was coming, 476 00:31:27,855 --> 00:31:30,175 you know, coming at them because at the time, right, this is 477 00:31:30,175 --> 00:31:33,855 $90,000,000,000. The, you know, Amazon investments in Eastern 478 00:31:33,855 --> 00:31:37,055 Pennsylvania are $20,000,000,000. It's like the 479 00:31:37,055 --> 00:31:39,775 the largest investment that's come to the state of 480 00:31:39,775 --> 00:31:44,430 Pennsylvania in a long time. It's one of the reasons why I I 481 00:31:44,430 --> 00:31:50,190 feel the pushback that sort of broken open some new political 482 00:31:50,190 --> 00:31:53,550 imagination has been really important because it is a pretty 483 00:31:53,550 --> 00:31:57,035 tremendous thing to have broken up enough space to be able to 484 00:31:57,035 --> 00:32:02,235 really question what it means to take or even just bite this hand 485 00:32:02,235 --> 00:32:04,795 that's feeding you as much money as is feeding. 486 00:32:04,795 --> 00:32:07,595 Mike Rugnetta: To eve... To even have any square footage to stand 487 00:32:07,595 --> 00:32:10,795 in a space where you're saying, maybe we say no to the billions 488 00:32:10,795 --> 00:32:14,130 and billions of dollars. Yeah. That actually gets a little bit 489 00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:17,090 to the next question I wanted to ask, which was... So in the 490 00:32:17,090 --> 00:32:19,410 report, describe one... 491 00:32:19,410 --> 00:32:24,210 It's the AI Horizon Summit. This is a conference in Pittsburgh on 492 00:32:24,210 --> 00:32:27,645 AI's expanding role across robotics, health care, energy 493 00:32:27,645 --> 00:32:31,165 infrastructure, and more, during which you describe a narration 494 00:32:31,165 --> 00:32:34,125 that plays out over a loudspeaker. And the narration 495 00:32:34,125 --> 00:32:38,445 is, we carry a legacy where grit meets energy, from the first 496 00:32:38,445 --> 00:32:42,220 sparks of steel to the steady pulse of nuclear to the all time 497 00:32:42,220 --> 00:32:46,620 high demand of natural gas. Why here? Because Pittsburgh and 498 00:32:46,620 --> 00:32:50,380 Pennsylvania offer what others can't, direct access to the 499 00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:53,580 toughest real world problems in energy, healthcare, 500 00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:55,100 manufacturing, and defense. 501 00:32:55,645 --> 00:32:59,085 Problems worth solving. Problems that forge billion dollar 502 00:32:59,085 --> 00:33:02,845 companies and the next generation of industry titans 503 00:33:02,845 --> 00:33:07,005 just as Andrew Carnegie once did. Putting aside for a second 504 00:33:07,005 --> 00:33:10,525 being like, maybe we do industry titans again. How fun would that 505 00:33:10,525 --> 00:33:15,440 be? Which is just a wild connection to make on purpose. 506 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,240 You then link this sentiment, and those delivered throughout 507 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,160 the summit, and from other sort of stakeholders in these 508 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,085 projects, to that of inevitability. And I think the 509 00:33:28,085 --> 00:33:32,885 huge sums of money also speak to this sense of inevitability, 510 00:33:32,885 --> 00:33:37,845 like large scale development of AI as software is inevitable. 511 00:33:38,005 --> 00:33:40,645 The construction of data centers that then supports it is 512 00:33:40,645 --> 00:33:44,240 inevitable. And maybe so too then is the construction that 513 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,880 this has to happen in Pennsylvania, because this is 514 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,160 the place that can do it. But you write that this 515 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,560 inevitability depends on a single vision of the future, one 516 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,320 with profound flaws and weaknesses. 517 00:33:57,025 --> 00:33:59,345 And I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about 518 00:33:59,345 --> 00:34:03,105 like, how is it that... Right. We've talked about the 519 00:34:03,105 --> 00:34:06,225 government and private industry in the report you mentioned also 520 00:34:06,225 --> 00:34:10,130 media. Like, how do those groups, other than showing up 521 00:34:10,130 --> 00:34:14,050 with, here's your $90,000,000,000 or whatever, you 522 00:34:14,050 --> 00:34:16,770 know, other than showing up with impossible to imagine amounts of 523 00:34:16,770 --> 00:34:20,530 money, how are they all working together to try to force this 524 00:34:20,530 --> 00:34:23,810 sense of inevitability? How do they how do they make that? 525 00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:24,530 Where does it come from? 526 00:34:24,905 --> 00:34:29,945 Cella Sum: I would say, the... Even the AI Horizon Summit, it 527 00:34:29,945 --> 00:34:38,670 was, hosted on a strip strip of lands, called the AI Avenue in 528 00:34:38,670 --> 00:34:44,270 Pittsburgh, which was nicknamed that by the AI strike team. So 529 00:34:44,270 --> 00:34:49,070 in itself, it's treated as a marketing term. That it's a 530 00:34:49,150 --> 00:34:54,215 narrative by design by a few powerful people that have the 531 00:34:54,215 --> 00:34:59,575 ability to run the discourse and that goes to the public 532 00:34:59,575 --> 00:35:03,920 administration. There's another one, with team Pennsylvania who 533 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,800 created this fifty year roadmap trying to position AI and 534 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,240 infrastructure developments. 535 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,240 And so they they've been doing this for many many years now. 536 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,040 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. You know, when I, think about some bit of 537 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,725 that narrative construction, In some ways, it really is 538 00:35:21,725 --> 00:35:26,285 necessary if what you want is for this boom to happen because 539 00:35:26,285 --> 00:35:30,925 you need the permission of places like Cumberland County 540 00:35:31,005 --> 00:35:36,110 and Archbald and Bethlehem and, you know, the towns right around 541 00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:41,390 through Mile Island in order to execute that. If you if, you you 542 00:35:41,390 --> 00:35:45,630 know, it doesn't come without convincing argument. And the 543 00:35:45,630 --> 00:35:49,675 argument on its face, you know, because, you know, over the 544 00:35:49,675 --> 00:35:51,515 course of that two years, we were starting to understand, 545 00:35:51,515 --> 00:35:54,315 okay, the jobs from the data centers themselves are not, you 546 00:35:54,315 --> 00:35:57,755 know, very strong. Oh, perhaps there are environmental risks 547 00:35:57,755 --> 00:35:58,715 that we need to worry about. 548 00:35:58,715 --> 00:36:02,715 Oh, perhaps there's, you know, concerns about tax revenue or 549 00:36:02,715 --> 00:36:06,780 waste or, you know, racial and economic justice. There's a 550 00:36:06,780 --> 00:36:09,740 there's a very risky investment. And you need to kind of sell 551 00:36:09,820 --> 00:36:14,220 some... Something Mhmm. To be able to sort of, you know, kind 552 00:36:14,220 --> 00:36:16,700 of enable people to believe in that vision. 553 00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:20,175 And increasingly, they were relying on, you know, 554 00:36:20,175 --> 00:36:23,215 inevitability. We talk about a few in the report, the sort of 555 00:36:23,215 --> 00:36:28,015 use of imagery around nationalism and war. This kind 556 00:36:28,015 --> 00:36:31,695 of like vision of the AI race that, you know, we just must do 557 00:36:31,695 --> 00:36:34,480 it because it's the direction that we're going in. Even if 558 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,680 that is a little bit faulty and we started to understand a bit 559 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,120 sort of the components of what they meant when they would talk 560 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,680 about this inevitability. You know, in the report we had 561 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,195 followed some of the efforts of the Datacenter Coalition that is 562 00:36:47,195 --> 00:36:50,955 a, you know, a trade group that represents the... 563 00:36:50,955 --> 00:36:53,515 Those in the data center industry. And they have a few 564 00:36:53,515 --> 00:36:57,195 websites that they use in Pennsylvania and in many other 565 00:36:57,195 --> 00:37:00,740 states where they're, you know, investing in data centers. And 566 00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:03,220 in there, they raise a few examples for why data centers 567 00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:07,220 are necessary. They say, well, you enjoy your video games and 568 00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:10,900 you need them for video game storage and it's good for 569 00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:14,100 electronic health records and it's great for, you know, 570 00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:18,255 grading software and all sorts of sort of tools that we need as 571 00:37:18,255 --> 00:37:21,935 part of the economy. So if you are perhaps a resident in that 572 00:37:21,935 --> 00:37:25,455 place, maybe in some way, there was a world in which you could 573 00:37:25,455 --> 00:37:26,655 be sold on those arguments. 574 00:37:26,655 --> 00:37:29,375 But where I feel this kind of inevitability framework really 575 00:37:29,375 --> 00:37:32,490 missed the mark is that it's not really attuned to the conditions 576 00:37:32,490 --> 00:37:35,930 that we are all living in today. In the time that we were out in 577 00:37:35,930 --> 00:37:39,850 Pennsylvania, seven Penn State University campuses closed down. 578 00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:45,145 Septa, the the public transit in Philadelphia had a funding 579 00:37:45,145 --> 00:37:47,865 crisis. People did not have transportation on the first day 580 00:37:47,865 --> 00:37:50,265 of school. We have had cuts to health care. 581 00:37:50,265 --> 00:37:54,265 We have had cuts to, you know, many different parts of, you 582 00:37:54,265 --> 00:37:57,545 know, our social safety net that might otherwise allow someone a 583 00:37:57,545 --> 00:38:01,630 life of dignity. So this kind of, you know, this answer that 584 00:38:01,630 --> 00:38:04,670 like AI is inevitable and it's gonna change health care. Like, 585 00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:06,510 what does that mean if you don't have access to health care in 586 00:38:06,510 --> 00:38:10,910 the first place? Like, I I think it's a bit, you know, it started 587 00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:15,675 out quite brawny, you know, as that AI Horizon Summit is 588 00:38:15,675 --> 00:38:19,835 saying, you know, that vision of titans, it's a big one that I 589 00:38:19,835 --> 00:38:23,115 think if you if you are holding on to that nostalgia we just 590 00:38:23,115 --> 00:38:25,730 talked about that maybe that would, you know, resonate in 591 00:38:25,730 --> 00:38:28,690 some way. But when it meets the reality of the worlds that we 592 00:38:28,690 --> 00:38:32,050 are living in in 2026, it is not a sufficient answer. 593 00:38:32,050 --> 00:38:35,730 And I think that is where, you know, a lot of that, you know, 594 00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:40,565 really profound pushback is is stepping into. This data center 595 00:38:40,565 --> 00:38:43,125 is not gonna give me health care. It's not gonna answer my 596 00:38:43,125 --> 00:38:45,685 questions. It's not gonna, you know, give me the life of 597 00:38:45,685 --> 00:38:48,405 dignity that I hope that I can get in this place that has been 598 00:38:48,405 --> 00:38:49,765 my home for many generations. 599 00:38:49,925 --> 00:38:52,325 Cella Sum: Yeah. And I think over the course of this 600 00:38:52,325 --> 00:38:58,300 research, we have seen sort of a shift even within the discourse 601 00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:03,100 of the proponents that were initially supportive of this 602 00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:07,205 development. Governor Shapiro is one example of that. But when 603 00:39:07,205 --> 00:39:12,565 Maya and I went to a a Datacenter Summit, back in April 604 00:39:12,805 --> 00:39:18,245 March. March, it was a very different tenor than what the 605 00:39:18,245 --> 00:39:21,685 initial summits that we attended even a year before that. 606 00:39:21,685 --> 00:39:28,670 And lot of these, folks are on the defensive and trying to say, 607 00:39:28,750 --> 00:39:32,510 oh, communities have these concerns but a lot of it is 608 00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:37,995 around misinformation of what the potential benefits are. And 609 00:39:37,995 --> 00:39:42,795 so it's very clear that community pushback has been 610 00:39:42,795 --> 00:39:46,555 effective enough to have, you know, the shift in discourse. 611 00:39:46,555 --> 00:39:52,490 Right? Where now, you know, they have to actually prove, that a 612 00:39:52,490 --> 00:39:56,890 lot of these benefits are coming to being, which they haven't 613 00:39:56,890 --> 00:39:58,330 yet. Right? 614 00:39:58,810 --> 00:40:02,810 But it's it's been really exciting to see this momentum 615 00:40:02,810 --> 00:40:03,210 growing. 616 00:40:04,055 --> 00:40:07,015 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. What does that pushback look like? What 617 00:40:07,015 --> 00:40:10,215 does the kind of resistance that gets the people who are holding 618 00:40:10,215 --> 00:40:13,175 the levers of power to, like, take their hands off of the 619 00:40:13,175 --> 00:40:14,375 lever for a second? 620 00:40:14,615 --> 00:40:17,450 Cella Sum: I... I'm seeing a bunch of different tactics on 621 00:40:17,450 --> 00:40:21,930 the ground. So it can happen at your local municipal meeting. 622 00:40:21,930 --> 00:40:26,170 Right? Just showing up in these council meetings, being able to 623 00:40:26,170 --> 00:40:28,570 make public comments, and just showing up. 624 00:40:28,890 --> 00:40:34,345 There's other folks that are, you know, doing rallies and 625 00:40:34,345 --> 00:40:39,705 going to the state capital to speak to legislators. Others are 626 00:40:39,705 --> 00:40:43,865 actually, you know, we call them citizen scientists, being able 627 00:40:43,865 --> 00:40:48,700 to actually track data center developments, creating apps. And 628 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:52,380 so I think what's so beautiful about this moment around 629 00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:55,500 community pushback is that, you know, there's so many different 630 00:40:55,500 --> 00:41:01,665 ways of being able to speak up and do something about this. And 631 00:41:01,745 --> 00:41:06,865 the everyday citizen actually has power, to make a difference. 632 00:41:06,865 --> 00:41:10,945 And so, yeah, I think this is one of the exciting moments 633 00:41:10,945 --> 00:41:14,930 where there is so much hopelessness for so long about 634 00:41:14,930 --> 00:41:19,570 growing authoritarianism and the growing power of tech companies 635 00:41:19,570 --> 00:41:22,290 where you feel like you're you're powerless. 636 00:41:22,370 --> 00:41:25,410 But in this moment, you're actually seeing everyday people 637 00:41:25,490 --> 00:41:29,425 making a huge difference in policy and local governments. 638 00:41:29,585 --> 00:41:32,225 Maia Woluchem: I think that's so true. And and it's also a really 639 00:41:32,225 --> 00:41:36,465 interesting moment for so many different types of organizing 640 00:41:36,465 --> 00:41:39,585 fights, which I think is... It's true in many places, but I also 641 00:41:39,585 --> 00:41:44,380 think it's just really representative of the complexity 642 00:41:44,380 --> 00:41:47,180 and the nuance and the, you know, beauty of a place like 643 00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:50,300 Pennsylvania. You know, there are so many people in these data 644 00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:54,545 center fights who enter it because of this long history of 645 00:41:54,545 --> 00:41:58,705 pushback around fracking or about coal or about, you know, 646 00:41:58,785 --> 00:42:03,105 long lineages of industrial harm. There are, you know, 647 00:42:03,105 --> 00:42:05,345 groups that are also here because they care about 648 00:42:05,345 --> 00:42:08,465 immigration, racial justice, utility costs. 649 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,360 There are like NIMBYs and YMBYs. You know, there's... It's just 650 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,160 a... It's a wild mix of... The first time 651 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,120 Mike Rugnetta: that's ever happened. 652 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,760 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. Exactly. It's a very very very 653 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,525 interesting mix of folks. You know, two other members of our 654 00:42:23,525 --> 00:42:27,525 our team, they're anthropologists and they often 655 00:42:27,845 --> 00:42:32,725 use this term, you know, the data center as a simulacrum for, 656 00:42:32,725 --> 00:42:38,340 you know, just about everything else that is at a, you know, 657 00:42:38,340 --> 00:42:42,180 real pressure point right now. I think you can find... 658 00:42:42,340 --> 00:42:45,860 You can take just about anything that you care about and see that 659 00:42:45,860 --> 00:42:48,740 fight in the data center. But, you know, one interesting 660 00:42:48,740 --> 00:42:53,365 example, there have been some emergent fights around emergent 661 00:42:53,365 --> 00:42:56,165 organizing around immigration that are finding themselves also 662 00:42:56,165 --> 00:42:59,845 in the data center fight, you know, on the argument that these 663 00:42:59,845 --> 00:43:03,445 data centers are, you know, part of the infrastructure for these 664 00:43:03,445 --> 00:43:06,645 huge companies that are increasingly expanding 665 00:43:06,645 --> 00:43:13,100 surveillance and using the data that they are taking from us to, 666 00:43:13,180 --> 00:43:17,260 you know, further detentions or, you know, increase policing 667 00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:21,020 power. There are others that might say, well, you know, data 668 00:43:21,020 --> 00:43:25,575 centers hold information for, you know, some of our biggest 669 00:43:25,575 --> 00:43:27,975 Fortune 500 companies. And if I really care about corporate 670 00:43:27,975 --> 00:43:30,775 consolidation, I should also care about Datacenter. So it is 671 00:43:30,775 --> 00:43:34,215 a it's a wide mix, but I think that is just another testament 672 00:43:34,215 --> 00:43:38,300 to kind of this particular moment that we're in, you know. 673 00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:41,820 It was it was different when we started. In 2024, people had a 674 00:43:41,820 --> 00:43:44,700 lot of fear for a lot of different reasons. We hadn't 675 00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:50,675 seen, you know, what this administration would, you know, 676 00:43:50,675 --> 00:43:54,835 bring us to. We hadn't seen this kind of like real economic 677 00:43:54,835 --> 00:43:57,715 precarity. We certainly did in 2024, but you know, we're in a 678 00:43:57,715 --> 00:43:58,835 different degree of it now. 679 00:43:58,835 --> 00:44:02,820 We hadn't seen this kind of, you know, real cleavage of our sort 680 00:44:02,820 --> 00:44:05,780 of social contract. And I think once that has broken, it's 681 00:44:05,780 --> 00:44:10,180 really opened up a lot of other ways for organizing to really, 682 00:44:10,180 --> 00:44:13,785 you know, engage in the public right of way, which we've seen 683 00:44:13,785 --> 00:44:16,265 in so many fights across country, but especially here in 684 00:44:16,265 --> 00:44:16,985 Pennsylvania. 685 00:44:17,225 --> 00:44:19,465 Mike Rugnetta: I'm wondering what your advice is for folks 686 00:44:19,465 --> 00:44:23,305 that wanna oppose a data center that's near them. Like, where do 687 00:44:23,305 --> 00:44:29,370 they look for either help or a model, something to copy or take 688 00:44:29,370 --> 00:44:30,250 notes from? 689 00:44:30,490 --> 00:44:33,450 Cella Sum: I would say, you know, taking from personal 690 00:44:33,450 --> 00:44:40,330 experience, you are not alone in your feelings. And I don't know. 691 00:44:40,330 --> 00:44:44,725 I have a different relationship to the place I grew up grew up, 692 00:44:45,365 --> 00:44:50,245 because of being involved in the data center fight. I, Central 693 00:44:50,245 --> 00:44:56,005 Pennsylvania was very, does not have that many people of color. 694 00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:59,010 I felt very isolated. 695 00:44:59,410 --> 00:45:03,010 But through actually getting involved in data center 696 00:45:03,010 --> 00:45:09,410 organizing, I was able to meet, people across intergenerational 697 00:45:09,410 --> 00:45:15,025 lines, you know, which is a really beautiful thing. And I I 698 00:45:15,025 --> 00:45:21,265 think just showing up, at these municipal meetings and speaking 699 00:45:21,345 --> 00:45:25,450 your voice is so super important. Being able to 700 00:45:25,610 --> 00:45:30,090 actually get involved in this political moment, through 701 00:45:30,090 --> 00:45:35,210 elections and canvassing, get... Getting to meet your neighbors. 702 00:45:35,210 --> 00:45:37,450 I think that is the one important thing. 703 00:45:37,450 --> 00:45:41,435 I went door knocking in different neighborhoods that I 704 00:45:41,435 --> 00:45:45,675 never actually been to in my own hometown and got to meet and got 705 00:45:45,675 --> 00:45:51,755 invited to have tea by strangers. And so I think that's 706 00:45:51,755 --> 00:45:54,800 one of the beautiful things in this moment is that you are 707 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,200 actually meeting your... The people in your own community, 708 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:04,240 and it's bringing people closer together. And I think, that, you 709 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:08,125 know, relationships and the community bonding has been one 710 00:46:08,125 --> 00:46:14,365 of the beautiful things in this moment, that is strong enough to 711 00:46:14,365 --> 00:46:18,365 beat a lot of the, people in power. 712 00:46:18,845 --> 00:46:22,110 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. I think that's so real. You know, 713 00:46:22,110 --> 00:46:26,030 there's so many different formations that are part of 714 00:46:26,030 --> 00:46:29,470 these interesting data center fights, you know, can be as 715 00:46:29,870 --> 00:46:33,630 small and local as a community garden or as big as a, you know, 716 00:46:33,630 --> 00:46:38,075 major organization that, you know, their whole budget is 717 00:46:38,075 --> 00:46:41,755 oriented towards a data center fight. And I I... You know, it's 718 00:46:41,755 --> 00:46:45,755 increasingly, you know, to plus one what Sela said, I I kind of 719 00:46:45,755 --> 00:46:49,035 feel like, you know, it was sad at the top of 25. 720 00:46:49,035 --> 00:46:51,595 Like, oh, we all need to be in community. Like, I really feel 721 00:46:51,595 --> 00:46:53,740 like we see it here. You know 722 00:46:53,740 --> 00:46:54,620 Mike Rugnetta: that's true. Yeah. 723 00:46:54,620 --> 00:46:56,300 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. Actually, it really is true, you know, 724 00:46:56,300 --> 00:46:59,100 because your community can find me... You can... It it shows up 725 00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:01,260 in all these different sorts of places. You know, we talked to 726 00:47:01,260 --> 00:47:05,340 people who were here because for thirty years, they have always 727 00:47:05,340 --> 00:47:08,815 gone to their municipal meetings to find out what's going on with 728 00:47:08,815 --> 00:47:11,615 the trash and find out what's happening with their neighbor. 729 00:47:11,615 --> 00:47:15,135 And suddenly now they're here in a data center fight. And so I do 730 00:47:15,135 --> 00:47:19,615 kind of feel like, you know, the revolutionary act of opening up 731 00:47:19,615 --> 00:47:23,550 your door and talking to your neighbor is I think one of the 732 00:47:23,550 --> 00:47:27,790 ways that, you know, folks find themselves and what ends up 733 00:47:27,790 --> 00:47:32,110 being an incredibly nuanced conversation about what 734 00:47:32,110 --> 00:47:35,150 infrastructure looks like. You know, I I pull back to what 735 00:47:35,150 --> 00:47:38,855 Selah mentioned earlier about, you know, some of the folks in 736 00:47:38,855 --> 00:47:43,815 the building trades that I I think that's a very honest and 737 00:47:43,815 --> 00:47:48,935 human place to be entering from. That like I also want my family 738 00:47:48,935 --> 00:47:54,840 to be able to have food on the table and, you know, a job 739 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,200 that's going to allow us to buy a home and, know, live out that 740 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,320 version of the American dream. And I'm gonna, you know, call 741 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,015 out Stella and thank her because in those interviews, she asked 742 00:48:06,015 --> 00:48:08,815 this question at the end of every one of our interviews that 743 00:48:08,815 --> 00:48:13,215 was, you know, what would be your dream in Pennsylvania? 744 00:48:13,215 --> 00:48:15,375 Like, if you if you had decision making power, like, what would 745 00:48:15,375 --> 00:48:20,060 you do? And we saw so many of those liberatory visions that 746 00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:23,740 were, you know, I wanna have a train. I wanna have food. I 747 00:48:23,740 --> 00:48:27,020 wanna have health care. I want, you know, the joy of 748 00:48:27,020 --> 00:48:30,700 Pennsylvania to be found in its rivers and its trees and the 749 00:48:30,700 --> 00:48:34,595 beautiful sort of environmental assets that we have here. 750 00:48:34,595 --> 00:48:39,075 And so I kind of, you know, I just wonder if, you know, if we 751 00:48:39,075 --> 00:48:44,275 started there and at sort of the goals that we all really care 752 00:48:44,275 --> 00:48:47,555 about, the ability to live a life of dignity, maybe we might 753 00:48:47,555 --> 00:48:52,210 find that there are other ways to get there that live beyond 754 00:48:52,290 --> 00:48:57,890 Amazon, Meta, Microsoft, Google. It might just be found, in, you 755 00:48:57,890 --> 00:49:00,930 know, reinvesting in our public infrastructure, all those things 756 00:49:00,930 --> 00:49:06,085 that we all got to benefit from for many, for many generations. 757 00:49:06,245 --> 00:49:09,845 Or, you know, maybe sometimes it is nuclear for some for some 758 00:49:09,845 --> 00:49:12,885 communities. Maybe that, you know, also can be part of the 759 00:49:12,885 --> 00:49:15,930 mix of answers. Like, there's lots and lots of communities and 760 00:49:15,930 --> 00:49:16,570 municipalities. 761 00:49:16,570 --> 00:49:20,090 Pennsylvania, there's lots of ways around that question. But I 762 00:49:20,090 --> 00:49:23,610 think increasingly, we've seen now that there's real curiosity 763 00:49:23,610 --> 00:49:27,530 about starting with the the goals that we want first and 764 00:49:27,755 --> 00:49:29,435 kind of working our way backwards. 765 00:49:29,595 --> 00:49:31,355 Mike Rugnetta: And the community should be involved. 766 00:49:31,355 --> 00:49:32,875 Maia Woluchem: Yes. And community should be involved. 767 00:49:32,875 --> 00:49:34,715 Mike Rugnetta: You know, we talked so much at the beginning 768 00:49:34,715 --> 00:49:39,195 of this conversation about why Pennsylvania is a particularly 769 00:49:39,195 --> 00:49:44,410 well suited place for the attempt to construct these data 770 00:49:44,410 --> 00:49:49,850 centers. But then also, it's really sort of... It's not nice, 771 00:49:49,850 --> 00:49:54,250 but it's like, it is... Provides a little bit of hope to then 772 00:49:54,250 --> 00:49:57,895 think of the residents of being like, we know how to... You 773 00:49:57,895 --> 00:50:00,295 know, we know what we're doing to fight this. 774 00:50:00,295 --> 00:50:03,815 Like, we as a region have sort of had to go through this 775 00:50:03,815 --> 00:50:09,390 before. And it's it's really interesting to sort of think 776 00:50:09,390 --> 00:50:13,630 about and see, you know, hear about groups of people putting 777 00:50:13,630 --> 00:50:17,870 that putting that knowledge and that history to work, you know, 778 00:50:17,870 --> 00:50:19,870 again. Unfortunate that they have to do it. 779 00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:23,470 Maia Woluchem: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so true. You know, 780 00:50:23,470 --> 00:50:27,765 this sort of industrial answer to our questions. Like, you 781 00:50:27,765 --> 00:50:31,605 know, if we're in a bad spot that a big company is gonna come 782 00:50:31,605 --> 00:50:35,045 and solve that for us, has a long history here. 783 00:50:35,045 --> 00:50:39,640 You know, we talked to so many families who, you know, lost a 784 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,840 grandpa in the mine or so many doesn't have a finger because 785 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,400 of, you know, the harm that they went through, you know, as a 786 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,080 result of, you know, these industrial barons at the time of 787 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,395 the golden age. We had some folks who were, you know, 788 00:50:54,395 --> 00:50:58,875 recalling these really evocative stories of union busting that, 789 00:50:58,875 --> 00:51:01,755 you know, was incredibly violent where they lost people in their 790 00:51:01,755 --> 00:51:04,650 lineage, you know. We spent a lot of time at some of those 791 00:51:04,650 --> 00:51:07,210 museums. We went to the, you know, National Anthracite 792 00:51:07,210 --> 00:51:11,050 Museum. We went many times to the Museum of Industrial History 793 00:51:11,050 --> 00:51:16,410 in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and and really tried to situate 794 00:51:16,410 --> 00:51:20,965 ourselves in this longer arc that was gonna hopefully provide 795 00:51:20,965 --> 00:51:24,165 some answers to why this moment really is meaningful for folks. 796 00:51:24,165 --> 00:51:28,725 And and, you know, when we talk to folks, so many people were 797 00:51:28,725 --> 00:51:32,690 pulling from from that place that, you know, this is not 798 00:51:32,690 --> 00:51:36,530 gonna happen to me and my family for the third time in a hundred 799 00:51:36,530 --> 00:51:40,770 years. You know, I'm happy to be part of that lineage to to 800 00:51:40,770 --> 00:51:43,810 really push back and fight back. And I think that I feel 801 00:51:43,810 --> 00:51:46,930 sentimental in a way because we were... We started this research 802 00:51:47,015 --> 00:51:51,895 before America 250 and then we ended it right at this time 803 00:51:51,895 --> 00:51:55,895 where we're really reflecting on what, you know, what this 804 00:51:55,895 --> 00:51:58,535 country means, what it's meant across the globe, what it meant 805 00:51:58,535 --> 00:52:00,855 means to the people who find themselves in it. And I feel 806 00:52:00,855 --> 00:52:05,870 like, you know, this story is set so one of America America's 807 00:52:05,870 --> 00:52:06,830 history and Yeah. 808 00:52:06,830 --> 00:52:11,070 Hopefully, future. And I think... Yeah. I I I just feel 809 00:52:11,070 --> 00:52:14,590 like there's real endless possibility for who who gets to 810 00:52:14,590 --> 00:52:16,005 decide in the end. 811 00:52:17,845 --> 00:52:20,885 Mike Rugnetta: Maya, Sela, thank you so much for joining us. This 812 00:52:20,885 --> 00:52:21,765 has been great. 813 00:52:21,925 --> 00:52:22,325 Maia Woluchem: Thank you 814 00:52:22,325 --> 00:52:23,765 Cella Sum: so much for joining us. 815 00:52:23,765 --> 00:52:25,205 Maia Woluchem: This is such a treat. 816 00:52:25,365 --> 00:52:27,365 Mike Rugnetta: We will put a link to the report in the show 817 00:52:27,365 --> 00:52:32,730 notes, and we will also put a link to the summit. Is that what 818 00:52:32,730 --> 00:52:35,530 you said, Sella? Is it a summit? Okay. We will put a link to the 819 00:52:35,530 --> 00:52:36,570 report in the show notes. 820 00:52:36,570 --> 00:52:39,530 Is there anywhere else that anybody should look for you or 821 00:52:39,530 --> 00:52:40,730 your work online? 822 00:52:40,810 --> 00:52:43,445 Maia Woluchem: You can find us on Instagram at data and 823 00:52:43,445 --> 00:52:47,925 society. You can also find out more about what our team and our 824 00:52:47,925 --> 00:52:52,405 colleagues are working on at datasociety.net, where we are 825 00:52:52,405 --> 00:52:56,880 publishing all the time about data centers, AI, chatbots, you 826 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,640 know, AI agents, all sorts of things at the intersection of, 827 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,480 AI, automation, data, and society. I'll shout out... 828 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,920 Actually, this might come out on Thursday, so maybe folks might 829 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,005 be in time for this. But on on this Friday, Sella's organized 830 00:53:12,005 --> 00:53:13,285 one such summit. 831 00:53:13,285 --> 00:53:14,725 Sella, you wanna talk about it? 832 00:53:14,725 --> 00:53:20,245 Cella Sum: Sure. So I will be cohosting the community centered 833 00:53:20,245 --> 00:53:23,845 AI infrastructure summit at Carnegie Mellon University on 834 00:53:23,845 --> 00:53:29,910 Friday. Maya will be our keynote speaker, talking more about the 835 00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:36,470 AI factory. And we have a whole slew of different panels around 836 00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:40,305 community organizing, around data centers, and environmental 837 00:53:40,305 --> 00:53:45,745 impacts of AI. It'll culminate in us codeveloping a community 838 00:53:45,745 --> 00:53:49,825 action plan around AI infrastructure development in 839 00:53:49,825 --> 00:53:50,705 Pennsylvania. 840 00:53:50,705 --> 00:53:51,665 So super exciting. 841 00:53:52,980 --> 00:53:54,580 Mike Rugnetta: That's incredible. Is that open for 842 00:53:54,580 --> 00:53:56,900 anybody to tune into remotely? 843 00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:00,980 Cella Sum: Yes. It'll be online. So check out the website, 844 00:54:01,140 --> 00:54:04,260 communityaisummit.org. 845 00:54:04,260 --> 00:54:06,035 Mike Rugnetta: We will absolutely put a link to that in 846 00:54:06,035 --> 00:54:26,660 the show notes. That is the news we have for you this week. We 847 00:54:26,660 --> 00:54:30,500 are gonna be back here in the main feed on or around Thursday, 848 00:54:30,660 --> 00:54:35,775 October 8. This week in the member feed, me, Hans, Jason, 849 00:54:35,775 --> 00:54:40,415 and Georgia discuss the apparent uptick in explanatory content 850 00:54:40,735 --> 00:54:46,015 online. How and why has the explainer as a format moved from 851 00:54:46,015 --> 00:54:48,175 long form to short form video? 852 00:54:48,630 --> 00:54:51,510 What of this uptick in popularity has Never Post 853 00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:56,150 experienced, and what do we think is responsible for it? Let 854 00:54:56,150 --> 00:55:01,750 us explain. To get access via your own individual private 855 00:55:01,750 --> 00:55:08,155 member feed lovingly crafted and maintained by us for you. Become 856 00:55:08,155 --> 00:55:12,635 a member at neverpo.st. Never Post's producers are Audrey 857 00:55:12,635 --> 00:55:15,755 Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name, 858 00:55:15,755 --> 00:55:16,075 last name. 859 00:55:16,340 --> 00:55:19,700 Our senior producer is Hans Buetow. Our executive producer 860 00:55:19,700 --> 00:55:23,220 is Jason Oberholzer, and the show's host, that's me, is Mike 861 00:55:23,220 --> 00:55:29,620 Rugnetta. These newfangled ghosts haunt by telephone and 862 00:55:29,620 --> 00:55:33,735 airwave. Acumen will finally languish in a good sense. Type 863 00:55:33,735 --> 00:55:37,335 would bottle a new motto in live numbers and wine, were they only 864 00:55:37,335 --> 00:55:40,935 not printers with so many thoughts to slip in media race 865 00:55:40,935 --> 00:55:44,535 or the thick of things at grasp root level up a slope on 866 00:55:44,535 --> 00:55:44,935 themselves. 867 00:55:45,850 --> 00:55:49,530 Our notion of productive labor becomes narrowed to the use of 868 00:55:49,530 --> 00:55:53,610 censure and science to ensure I am baffled as Yeats by those 869 00:55:53,610 --> 00:55:57,130 voices that still speak to Odysseus, but as the bats. 870 00:55:58,575 --> 00:56:03,295 Excerpt of shadow recension by Alan Halsey. Never Post is a 871 00:56:03,295 --> 00:56:06,495 production of charts and leisure, and it's distributed by 872 00:56:06,495 --> 00:56:07,295 Radiotopia.