1 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,215 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13,215 --> 00:00:15,455 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:15,455 --> 00:00:20,095 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 05/06/2025 at 4 00:00:20,095 --> 00:00:26,015 08:37AM eastern, and we have a jam packed show for you this 5 00:00:26,015 --> 00:00:29,770 week. First, in a new type of segment we're trying out, doctor 6 00:00:29,770 --> 00:00:34,410 Martin Shelton tells us what Signal, the messaging app, is 7 00:00:34,490 --> 00:00:40,095 and how end to end encryption works. Then was this show always 8 00:00:40,095 --> 00:00:43,375 eventually going to devolve into a poetry reading? 9 00:00:43,695 --> 00:00:46,735 Probably. And finally, contributing producer Tori 10 00:00:46,735 --> 00:00:51,215 Dominguez Peek wonders what happened to the countless flash 11 00:00:51,215 --> 00:00:55,820 games of the early aughts since the software was decommissioned 12 00:00:55,820 --> 00:00:59,180 and encounters the world of video game preservation along 13 00:00:59,180 --> 00:01:03,420 the way. That's right. Three segments this week and also 14 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:06,955 wildflowers. But first, we're gonna take a quick break. 15 00:01:06,955 --> 00:01:09,195 You're gonna listen to some ads unless you're listening on the 16 00:01:09,195 --> 00:01:12,395 member feed. And when we return, we're gonna talk about a few of 17 00:01:12,395 --> 00:01:14,715 the things that have happened since the last time you heard 18 00:01:14,715 --> 00:01:20,955 from us. A wild news segment appears. I have five stories for 19 00:01:20,955 --> 00:01:25,410 you this week. 4chan was hacked, though the rumors of its 20 00:01:25,410 --> 00:01:28,610 complete demise appear to have been greatly exaggerated. 21 00:01:28,770 --> 00:01:31,890 Interforum drama allegedly led to the site being temporarily 22 00:01:31,890 --> 00:01:35,250 taken down, replaced with a message reading simply, you got 23 00:01:35,250 --> 00:01:39,895 hacked x d. Wired reports that the likely vulnerability was the 24 00:01:39,895 --> 00:01:43,495 site's significantly outdated unpatched software. Hackers 25 00:01:43,495 --> 00:01:46,775 leaked a list of 4chan mods and so called janitors, including 26 00:01:46,775 --> 00:01:50,190 some email addresses and IPs. According to one janitor who 27 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:52,670 spoke with TechCrunch, they have no reason to believe the leak is 28 00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:55,950 fake. Rumors quickly spread that the leak contained many dot e d 29 00:01:55,950 --> 00:02:00,430 u and .gov email addresses, but Jared Holt, senior researcher at 30 00:02:00,430 --> 00:02:03,470 the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, said the claim was not 31 00:02:03,470 --> 00:02:07,015 legit and called the leak, and I'm quoting here, a real 32 00:02:07,015 --> 00:02:07,815 snoozer. 33 00:02:07,895 --> 00:02:10,375 Many outlets claimed it seemed likely the site would be down 34 00:02:10,375 --> 00:02:14,775 for good, but as of writing, 4 chan Org loads without issue for 35 00:02:14,775 --> 00:02:21,820 better and probably worse. Google will not end support for 36 00:02:21,820 --> 00:02:26,300 third party cookies in Chrome. Seven years ago, the tech giant 37 00:02:26,300 --> 00:02:28,860 said it would begin to phase out support for cookies in its 38 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:32,895 flagship browser. The technology is used amongst other purposes 39 00:02:32,895 --> 00:02:36,175 for tracking user activity across the Internet. On 40 00:02:36,175 --> 00:02:41,295 04/22/2025, the privacy sandbox, as the initiative was so called, 41 00:02:41,295 --> 00:02:45,010 released a statement titled next steps for privacy sandbox and 42 00:02:45,010 --> 00:02:48,210 tracking protections in Chrome, in which VP of the sandbox 43 00:02:48,210 --> 00:02:52,370 Anthony Chavez writes of the last several years, quote, the 44 00:02:52,370 --> 00:02:55,410 adoption of privacy enhancing technologies has accelerated. 45 00:02:55,845 --> 00:02:58,725 New opportunities to safeguard and secure people's browsing 46 00:02:58,725 --> 00:03:03,045 experiences with AI have emerged, and the regulatory 47 00:03:03,045 --> 00:03:06,245 landscape around the world has evolved considerably. Taking all 48 00:03:06,245 --> 00:03:08,710 of those factors into consideration, we've made the 49 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:12,470 decision to maintain our current approach to offering users third 50 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:16,390 party cookie choice in Chrome. Cybersecurity researcher Lucas 51 00:03:16,390 --> 00:03:19,350 Olanik has called the move, quote, more than just 52 00:03:19,350 --> 00:03:23,395 disappointing. It's deeply troubling. Wondering, could this 53 00:03:23,395 --> 00:03:26,115 be a broader sign of deterioration of data 54 00:03:26,115 --> 00:03:29,715 protection, security, and privacy, which goes well along 55 00:03:29,715 --> 00:03:32,115 the promoted views that intellectual protection, 56 00:03:32,115 --> 00:03:35,555 copyright protection, and privacy and data protection are 57 00:03:35,555 --> 00:03:40,340 no longer needed in times development because AI must be 58 00:03:40,340 --> 00:03:41,140 developed? 59 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:47,860 In other Google News, unexpected potential knock on effects of a 60 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:52,385 judge finding Google holds a search monopoly, Fire Fox may be 61 00:03:52,385 --> 00:03:55,985 on the rocks. The DOJ has recommended Google be blocked 62 00:03:55,985 --> 00:04:00,145 from paying to be the default search engine in various 63 00:04:00,145 --> 00:04:04,225 browsers, including the Mozilla Foundation's privacy focused 64 00:04:04,225 --> 00:04:08,620 Firefox. Firefox. The wrinkle? Google's fees to Mozilla for 65 00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:14,300 their prime placement comprise about 90% of Mozilla's revenue. 66 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:17,260 Mozilla CFO Eric Mulheim testified that if the 67 00:04:17,260 --> 00:04:20,365 restriction went through, it may end up having the opposite of 68 00:04:20,365 --> 00:04:24,525 its intended effect, solidifying Chrome's singular position in 69 00:04:24,525 --> 00:04:27,965 the current iteration of the browser wars by removing funding 70 00:04:27,965 --> 00:04:32,125 from the only competitor not also owned by a huge tech 71 00:04:32,125 --> 00:04:32,605 company. 72 00:04:32,605 --> 00:04:33,005 Clip: Oops. 73 00:04:34,530 --> 00:04:36,930 Mike Rugnetta: The US congress has passed the controversial 74 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:40,210 Take It Down Act, which we previously discussed in episode 75 00:04:40,210 --> 00:04:44,690 30. The bill is nominally aimed at the removal of nonconsensual 76 00:04:44,690 --> 00:04:49,425 intimate imagery aka revenge porn and pornographic deepfakes, 77 00:04:49,425 --> 00:04:52,785 but provides broad leverage for the US government to censor 78 00:04:52,785 --> 00:04:56,385 online speech, including that of political opponents, which 79 00:04:56,385 --> 00:04:59,200 president Trump has all but promised he would do. For Tech 80 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,240 Dirt Mike Masnik, who you will remember from our section two 81 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,680 thirty segment writes, the bill is so bad that even the cyber 82 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,120 civil rights initiative whose entire existence is based on 83 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,400 representing the interests of victims of nonconsensual 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,805 intimate imagery and passing bills similar to the takedown 85 00:05:15,805 --> 00:05:19,085 act has come out with a statement saying that while it 86 00:05:19,085 --> 00:05:23,485 supports laws to address such imagery, it cannot support this 87 00:05:23,485 --> 00:05:29,085 bill due to its many, many inherent problems, end quote. In 88 00:05:29,085 --> 00:05:31,690 defense of the bill, take it down supporter first lady 89 00:05:31,690 --> 00:05:35,530 Melania Trump said, through this critical legislation and our 90 00:05:35,530 --> 00:05:39,530 continued focus with be best, we are building a future where 91 00:05:39,530 --> 00:05:42,810 every child can thrive and achieve their full potential. 92 00:05:46,055 --> 00:05:49,495 The treats are officially more expensive. 93 00:05:49,495 --> 00:05:53,255 They have come for them. NPR reports that as of this Friday, 94 00:05:53,255 --> 00:05:58,455 shoppers may be hit with duties of up to a 45% when shopping at 95 00:05:58,455 --> 00:06:02,740 online Chinese retailers, Xian and Tmall if the goods they are 96 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:05,300 purchasing must cross an international border to arrive 97 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:08,820 at their final destination in The United States. Previously, 98 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:11,460 these individual shipments were the subject of de minimis 99 00:06:11,460 --> 00:06:15,575 exemptions. Purchases under $800 could be shipped duty free, but 100 00:06:15,575 --> 00:06:18,935 the Trump admin has ended this exemption and levied additional 101 00:06:18,935 --> 00:06:23,495 tariffs on top. This, they say, is to stem the tide of fentanyl 102 00:06:23,495 --> 00:06:25,655 entering The United States from China. 103 00:06:25,655 --> 00:06:28,800 Fentanyl precursor chemicals often do enter The US from China 104 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,800 hidden inside packages that look like small ecommerce packages. 105 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,760 The Biden admin considered ending the de minimis exemption 106 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,215 for this reason themselves among others. The precursor chemicals 107 00:06:39,215 --> 00:06:42,495 then make their way via various means to Mexico where they are 108 00:06:42,495 --> 00:06:46,095 rendered into the final drug and then brought back across the 109 00:06:46,095 --> 00:06:48,815 border to be sold in The US where the market for its 110 00:06:48,815 --> 00:06:52,495 purchase has grown to a point of being described in epidemic 111 00:06:52,655 --> 00:06:55,890 proportions. Wait. Where do we start? 112 00:06:55,970 --> 00:06:59,970 Oh, right. So anyway, the $10 dress you buy from TEMU may now 113 00:06:59,970 --> 00:07:08,825 be $30 because of fentanyl, I guess. And finally, Apple can no 114 00:07:08,825 --> 00:07:14,585 longer charge a 27% fee on purchases made outside of their 115 00:07:14,585 --> 00:07:16,665 App Store. Yeah. You heard that right. 116 00:07:16,745 --> 00:07:20,470 At the April, judge Yvonne Gonzales Rogers ruled that Apple 117 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:24,230 could no longer restrict how app developers indicate and link to 118 00:07:24,390 --> 00:07:28,870 places where people can make purchases outside of an app. 119 00:07:29,030 --> 00:07:33,190 Purchases made inside the app trigger a hefty 30% cut for 120 00:07:35,505 --> 00:07:40,705 ruling, Apple was levying an only slightly less hefty 27% fee 121 00:07:40,705 --> 00:07:44,785 for purchases made outside of but directed through an app 122 00:07:44,785 --> 00:07:48,945 downloaded via their app store. In the ruling, Rogers writes, 123 00:07:48,945 --> 00:07:52,050 quote, the evidence presented showed anti competitive effects 124 00:07:52,050 --> 00:07:55,890 and excessive operating margins under any normative measures. 125 00:07:55,890 --> 00:07:58,450 The lack of competition has resulted in decreased 126 00:07:58,450 --> 00:08:02,075 information, which also results in decreased innovation relative 127 00:08:02,075 --> 00:08:05,915 to the profits being made. The costs to developer are higher 128 00:08:05,915 --> 00:08:08,875 because competition is not driving the commission rate. 129 00:08:08,875 --> 00:08:11,515 As described, the commission rate driving the excessive 130 00:08:11,515 --> 00:08:16,190 margins has not been justified, end quote. Rogers is also 131 00:08:16,190 --> 00:08:18,990 referring Apple to the US Attorney to find out whether 132 00:08:18,990 --> 00:08:23,630 they acted in contempt by not following a 2021 injunction. 133 00:08:23,630 --> 00:08:27,230 This, The Verge reports, could lead to criminal proceedings. 134 00:08:34,965 --> 00:08:37,525 Okay. That is the news I have for you this week. 135 00:08:37,525 --> 00:08:42,830 Today in this episode, I ask chat, are you listening? Can you 136 00:08:42,830 --> 00:08:47,070 hear me? Then Tori Dominguez Peak wonders who is keeping 137 00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:51,710 Flash games alive and how, and in our interstitials, Hans 138 00:08:51,710 --> 00:08:55,805 visits the Eloise Butler Wildflower Garden and Bird 139 00:08:55,805 --> 00:08:59,485 Sanctuary in Minneapolis, Minnesota to record for us the 140 00:08:59,485 --> 00:09:06,365 very essence of springtime. But first, a while back, we did a 141 00:09:06,365 --> 00:09:09,330 version of the news at the top of the show that you all 142 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:13,170 responded really positively to. It was the one about net 143 00:09:13,170 --> 00:09:16,530 neutrality, what ending it means, and what position its 144 00:09:16,530 --> 00:09:20,290 absence puts the FCC and Internet service providers in. 145 00:09:20,615 --> 00:09:23,175 A bunch of you reached out, and you let us know that you really 146 00:09:23,175 --> 00:09:26,775 liked having a nuts and bolts explainer from the ground up of 147 00:09:26,775 --> 00:09:30,215 a thing that you'd heard a lot about, but hadn't really had the 148 00:09:30,215 --> 00:09:35,000 time to dig into. So we're gonna do more of those in a 149 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,200 potentially recurring segment we're provisionally calling 150 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:43,880 terms and conditions. This is the first of those. And for it, 151 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,345 we've asked doctor Martin Sheldon, the deputy director of 152 00:09:47,345 --> 00:09:50,785 digital security at the Freedom of the Press Foundation, to tell 153 00:09:50,785 --> 00:09:54,305 us about a piece of software that you've probably heard a lot 154 00:09:54,305 --> 00:09:59,025 about in the news lately, SIGNAL, and its underlying 155 00:09:59,025 --> 00:10:03,160 technology, end to end encryption. What are these 156 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:03,720 things? 157 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,000 How do they work? And what are their shortcomings? Martin, take 158 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:09,400 it away. 159 00:10:18,085 --> 00:10:21,045 Dr. Shelton: I'm doctor Martin Shelton. I'm the deputy director 160 00:10:21,045 --> 00:10:24,565 of digital security at Freedom of the Press Foundation, and 161 00:10:24,565 --> 00:10:29,230 here to talk about Signal. Signal has been in the news a 162 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:32,750 lot lately. We talk to journalists about Signal for our 163 00:10:32,750 --> 00:10:35,230 work. We are a digital security training team. 164 00:10:35,230 --> 00:10:38,990 We support journalists in their digital security practice. And 165 00:10:39,150 --> 00:10:42,615 one of the tools that we talk about is part of a big series of 166 00:10:42,615 --> 00:10:45,015 tools that you might want to take advantage of as a 167 00:10:45,015 --> 00:10:51,815 journalist is Signal. Why is that? Most of the service 168 00:10:51,815 --> 00:10:55,815 providers that you use on the web, whether that's Google Meet, 169 00:10:55,895 --> 00:11:00,370 Zoom, a text message, or you're making a phone call. Most of the 170 00:11:00,370 --> 00:11:03,490 time when you are interacting with these services, what you're 171 00:11:03,490 --> 00:11:06,210 doing is you're sending a message basically to the service 172 00:11:06,210 --> 00:11:08,290 provider in a way that's legible to them. 173 00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:11,330 So they get a copy of your messages, they can listen in to 174 00:11:11,330 --> 00:11:15,945 what you're doing. Compare this to Signal. So Signal offers 175 00:11:15,945 --> 00:11:18,905 what's called end to end encryption. And basically, 176 00:11:19,145 --> 00:11:22,345 that's just a way of saying that the service provider doesn't get 177 00:11:22,345 --> 00:11:25,670 a copy of your messages, can't listen in to your calls. So only 178 00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:27,830 the people in conversation get a copy. 179 00:11:29,510 --> 00:11:33,990 So Signal has a pretty good track record on resisting legal 180 00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:37,270 requests for user data. This is because they don't really 181 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:40,995 collect much upfront. And you can actually see this in a 182 00:11:40,995 --> 00:11:45,715 website that they host at signal.org/bigbrother. And you 183 00:11:45,715 --> 00:11:49,235 go here, what you're going to see is the publicly disclosed 184 00:11:49,235 --> 00:11:52,995 grand jury subpoenas that they have published. And all of these 185 00:11:52,995 --> 00:11:56,680 grand jury subpoenas show the registration phone number for 186 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:01,560 the signal user, the last login date, and the registration date. 187 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,600 And that's it. There's basically nothing that they have access 188 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,840 to. So compare this to other major platforms out there, what 189 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,475 they're going to have is all kinds of information about who 190 00:12:11,475 --> 00:12:15,395 you're talking to, when, how long. So they have basically 191 00:12:15,395 --> 00:12:24,035 nothing. There's lots of tools out there that provide end to 192 00:12:24,035 --> 00:12:27,110 end encryption, but signal has some really strong advantages. 193 00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:29,510 And there's also a lot of really cool features that are built 194 00:12:29,510 --> 00:12:33,350 into this. You can set your signal to delete messages by 195 00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:36,630 default if you want to between five seconds and four weeks or a 196 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:39,425 custom time of your choice, because we simply don't need 197 00:12:39,425 --> 00:12:42,625 everything to stay on our devices indefinitely. In 198 00:12:42,625 --> 00:12:45,425 security, there's this idea of what's called the attack 199 00:12:45,425 --> 00:12:48,705 surface. That is the number of different footholds that 200 00:12:48,705 --> 00:12:52,545 somebody can use to get into your information on your 201 00:12:52,545 --> 00:12:57,950 devices. Having fewer messages and signal for me is a way of 202 00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:01,790 trying to minimize my attack surface, minimize the number of 203 00:13:01,790 --> 00:13:03,550 things that can go wrong on my device. 204 00:13:04,990 --> 00:13:07,950 Another feature that I really like is they have a feature 205 00:13:07,950 --> 00:13:11,835 called safety numbers. And safety numbers will allow you to 206 00:13:11,835 --> 00:13:16,395 compare the encryption across multiple devices. So if one 207 00:13:16,395 --> 00:13:19,995 person who you're meeting in person and you want to compare 208 00:13:19,995 --> 00:13:23,035 your safety numbers to verify that the encryption is working 209 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:26,420 as intended, that they are who they say they are, and that this 210 00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:28,980 corresponds to what's happening in the app, then you can do 211 00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:32,020 that. It's really easy. You just look at the safety numbers and 212 00:13:32,020 --> 00:13:33,620 if they match, you're good to go. 213 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:37,655 Another feature that I really like is this username feature. 214 00:13:37,895 --> 00:13:40,295 Instead of handing out a phone number, you give this username. 215 00:13:40,295 --> 00:13:43,175 It's typically a string of text and a couple of numbers at the 216 00:13:43,175 --> 00:13:47,495 end. And this has all kinds of advantages because now you can 217 00:13:47,495 --> 00:13:50,615 post that username publicly, anybody can reach out publicly. 218 00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:53,470 This is something that we often encourage journalists to do 219 00:13:53,470 --> 00:13:56,590 instead of giving away a personal phone number. 220 00:13:56,910 --> 00:14:01,470 You can post the username, say, in your social media bio and get 221 00:14:01,470 --> 00:14:04,670 tips that way. And likewise, you know, we're seeing a growing 222 00:14:04,670 --> 00:14:08,015 number of activists who are organizing this way that they 223 00:14:08,015 --> 00:14:11,215 don't necessarily want to give away their phone number to 224 00:14:11,215 --> 00:14:14,975 everybody and make it easy for somebody to identify other 225 00:14:14,975 --> 00:14:17,455 information tied to that phone number. We use our phone numbers 226 00:14:17,455 --> 00:14:21,360 for so many things. And so this is a really powerful feature if 227 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,360 we want to rein in how much information is out there about 228 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,040 your personal phone number and any other information that could 229 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:34,005 be tied to that. There's also it is not a for profit entity. 230 00:14:34,005 --> 00:14:38,565 This is run by a nonprofit, the Signal Foundation. So like us at 231 00:14:38,565 --> 00:14:41,525 Freedom of the Press Foundation, the intention behind the 232 00:14:41,525 --> 00:14:45,605 nonprofit entity is to support the public good. So we want to 233 00:14:45,605 --> 00:14:49,180 make sure that this technology is not making its money off of 234 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:53,660 you as the user. They make money off of donations. And also it's 235 00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:56,460 open source, and so this means that the code is publicly 236 00:14:56,460 --> 00:14:57,180 available. 237 00:14:57,180 --> 00:15:00,140 Anybody can look at it on the web and a lot of security 238 00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:03,755 experts have looked at it to verify that it does what it's 239 00:15:03,755 --> 00:15:08,795 saying that it's doing. We do get questions fairly often 240 00:15:08,795 --> 00:15:14,075 about, is this actually safe? And the answer to that is, it 241 00:15:14,075 --> 00:15:18,440 depends. So what are you trying to protect? And then how are you 242 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:19,880 already protecting it? 243 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,720 So the app is secure by default because it's end to end 244 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,960 encrypted. But the idea with end to end encryption is that the 245 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,865 ends are the weak points. If you have malware on your device, 246 00:15:33,025 --> 00:15:35,425 then, you know, Signal won't be able to defend you against that. 247 00:15:35,425 --> 00:15:39,265 If somebody picks up your device and is reading the messages in 248 00:15:39,265 --> 00:15:42,545 plain text, in, you know, human readable text, right off the 249 00:15:42,545 --> 00:15:45,920 device, Signal can't protect against that. We recently saw 250 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,680 this photo of Mike Waltz literally checking signal during 251 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:50,800 a cabinet meeting. 252 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,360 And so if somebody is in the room with a camera right next to 253 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,520 you and you're checking your messages, yeah, they might take 254 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,955 a photo of them. It can protect you from the what we call the 255 00:16:00,955 --> 00:16:04,555 ends in end to end encryption. The information that's right on 256 00:16:04,555 --> 00:16:14,510 the device and visible to anybody standing around. Because 257 00:16:14,510 --> 00:16:17,550 of all these safety properties, this is a really great app for 258 00:16:17,790 --> 00:16:21,470 anybody who just cares about privacy. And and I would argue 259 00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:25,310 that everybody cares about privacy in various contexts, 260 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:28,110 that we don't say the same things to everybody in all 261 00:16:27,825 --> 00:16:31,745 circumstances, that we really do value the ways that we try to 262 00:16:31,745 --> 00:16:33,345 present ourselves to one another. 263 00:16:33,825 --> 00:16:37,105 You don't talk to your church buddies in the same way that you 264 00:16:37,105 --> 00:16:40,000 talk to the bar buddies. And so thinking about the different 265 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,960 circumstances around our conversations, we really do want 266 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560 to control the different flows of information around us. And so 267 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,320 this is a tool to help you to do that. But we also know that this 268 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,705 is a really popular tool for people who work in journalism, 269 00:16:56,785 --> 00:17:00,705 human rights defenders, politicians increasingly, say, 270 00:17:01,265 --> 00:17:03,825 you're starting to see no shortage of stories about what's 271 00:17:03,825 --> 00:17:08,520 happening, in the White House around signals. So there's a lot 272 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,040 of people who want to take advantage of these properties. 273 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,440 So if this sounds really interesting to you, feel free to 274 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,360 check out signal.org. It's in all the major app stores. If you 275 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:23,225 need any help getting started with Signal, I wrote a super 276 00:17:23,225 --> 00:17:25,945 detailed walkthrough. It's called Signal for Beginners. You 277 00:17:25,945 --> 00:17:27,545 can find it at Freedom.Press. 278 00:17:27,785 --> 00:17:30,345 And while you're at Freedom.Press, please do check 279 00:17:30,345 --> 00:17:33,865 out all the other work that we do to support journalists. We 280 00:17:33,865 --> 00:17:37,030 run a project called the SecureDrop project, an anonymous 281 00:17:37,030 --> 00:17:39,990 whistleblowing platform. So we also are building technologies 282 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:44,070 to help support journalists in their digital security practice. 283 00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:46,710 We run something called the US Press Freedom Tracker. We are 284 00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:49,945 tracking press freedom violations across The US since 285 00:17:49,945 --> 00:17:50,985 2017. 286 00:17:51,385 --> 00:17:54,825 You see anything that you think should be contributed to that 287 00:17:54,825 --> 00:18:00,985 database? Submit it. It really helps us out. And then we also 288 00:18:00,140 --> 00:18:04,460 do all kinds of advocacy work around press freedom. So please 289 00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:05,740 do check that out as well. 290 00:18:14,775 --> 00:18:20,295 Hans Buetow: Dutchman's breeches. Now those? Those. 291 00:18:20,375 --> 00:18:22,775 Right? Sorry. 292 00:18:22,775 --> 00:18:22,935 Amy: Because 293 00:18:22,935 --> 00:18:24,135 they look kind of like anemones 294 00:18:24,375 --> 00:18:25,335 Hans Buetow: Oh, yeah. 295 00:18:25,335 --> 00:18:27,480 Amy: These are Columbine coming up here. 296 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,880 Hans Buetow: Those are Columbine. Yeah. For sure. But 297 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,240 Those are are those 298 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,120 Amy: I'm trying to remember the, the leaf that comes with those. 299 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:41,835 Oh, it doesn't really show it on here very well, the leaf. Didn't 300 00:18:41,835 --> 00:18:43,275 think we think of bleeding hearts. 301 00:18:43,275 --> 00:18:45,595 Hans Buetow: They do make yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 302 00:18:45,595 --> 00:18:50,235 Dutchman's breeches. Oh, gorgeous. 303 00:18:52,075 --> 00:18:53,115 Amy: So cool. 304 00:18:53,115 --> 00:18:55,355 Hans Buetow: So cool. And here's some more 305 00:18:55,355 --> 00:18:55,995 of the lilies. 306 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,700 Oh, man. Those are pretty. 307 00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:04,460 Amy: Yeah. I'm trying to tell, you know what, what leaf is 308 00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:07,260 attached to it. Like, does it look kinda like the columbine 309 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:10,620 leaf behind it? Is that am I attaching the right one to it? 310 00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:11,420 Hans Buetow: Or is it the 311 00:19:12,135 --> 00:19:12,935 I can't tell. 312 00:19:13,015 --> 00:19:15,095 Amy: We'll see another one. It's hard to tell. 313 00:19:15,335 --> 00:19:17,015 Hans Buetow: Dicentra cucullaria. 314 00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:30,070 Oh, Amy. Look at who's on my hand. 315 00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:31,670 Amy: So this is actually a root. 316 00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:37,190 Hans Buetow: Look who's on oh, flew away. That fly was wild 317 00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:39,825 looking. Sorry. This is what? 318 00:19:39,825 --> 00:19:42,145 Amy: That's actually in the rue family. 319 00:19:42,145 --> 00:19:42,785 Hans Buetow: Oh. 320 00:19:43,505 --> 00:19:46,705 Amy: I think it called it said, like, Early Meadow Rue. Because 321 00:19:46,705 --> 00:19:48,705 once I looked at the flower, I'm like, that doesn't look right. 322 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:16,345 Mike Rugnetta: Hello. I'm gonna read a weird poem. Hans is 323 00:20:16,345 --> 00:20:20,460 talking to me, so I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to him and then I'm 324 00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:58,370 gonna read the weird poem. Are you there, chat? It's me, Mike. 325 00:21:01,985 --> 00:21:05,345 Whereas once we went where people go, where it's expected 326 00:21:05,345 --> 00:21:09,185 one commune with some semblance of a superior sort, one that 327 00:21:09,185 --> 00:21:12,625 pervades and yet still for some such a reason has its own house, 328 00:21:12,625 --> 00:21:18,280 a particular locus. The locus is now about us. Though, of course, 329 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:24,520 the power always was. Cathedrals for those with eyes to see? No. 330 00:21:24,855 --> 00:21:27,975 A perfectly distributed diaphanous and indivisible house 331 00:21:27,975 --> 00:21:32,935 of worship in every home, every library, restaurant, and hotel 332 00:21:32,935 --> 00:21:37,255 in your pocket, in the taxi, in your fridge, on your bike. Nope. 333 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:41,710 Not that bike, the other bike. On your TV, in your TV, in the 334 00:21:41,710 --> 00:21:47,310 doctor's office, the deli, the DMV, the dentist chat watches 335 00:21:47,310 --> 00:21:50,795 over us. We watch back. 336 00:21:56,235 --> 00:22:05,500 Chat, is this real? Is this real, chat? What is logging on 337 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:09,100 if not communing? What is the stream if not communion? Greet 338 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:11,740 thy neighbor, greet thy neighbor, and watch. 339 00:22:12,380 --> 00:22:16,540 What happens to belief in an age of chance mediated endlessly 340 00:22:16,485 --> 00:22:20,165 within systems built by men blue lit in their cubicles, one foot 341 00:22:20,165 --> 00:22:23,925 in the Pentagon? What they want, they're getting always in 342 00:22:23,925 --> 00:22:28,965 embarrassment of amounts and what we want, well, what is 343 00:22:28,965 --> 00:22:32,800 posting, if not prayer? Petitioning powers we cannot 344 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,680 know, see, control, or comprehend for charity or at 345 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,240 least a sign, something, something known, anything to be 346 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,715 seen, to be read and read throughout, and read to be read 347 00:22:44,715 --> 00:22:50,315 and read throughout, to be liked and to be found in such a state, 348 00:22:50,315 --> 00:22:56,315 to feel feel feel feel alive though God is dead. He was 349 00:22:56,315 --> 00:22:58,475 killed. We killed him and replaced him. 350 00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:06,740 Chat, are we cooked? Because one once willed you. I know that we 351 00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:11,540 too are allowed to want you. Even if we do not want. Chat 352 00:23:11,780 --> 00:23:12,500 ripens. 353 00:23:14,425 --> 00:23:17,945 We spoil slowly under the sun that is an infinite scroll of 354 00:23:17,945 --> 00:23:22,665 always on text and whatnot, never not there. An arm reaches 355 00:23:22,665 --> 00:23:26,265 out of bed across the gap to the nightstand and with feeble tired 356 00:23:26,265 --> 00:23:30,560 hands in the dim light of morning, it hovers over an open 357 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,280 flame just to see how hot exactly it is. Our legion of 358 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,840 companions radiate a heat that warms and it cooks and who are 359 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,475 we to not let them? We see and are seen passing the heat around 360 00:23:44,475 --> 00:23:48,235 in a fed back panopticon back and forth forwarding the same 361 00:23:48,235 --> 00:23:52,235 six streams until they take on the digitized patina of overused 362 00:23:52,235 --> 00:23:57,760 sandpaper and what has been worn so smooth through its use? 363 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:00,800 Subscribe for part two. 364 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,880 It's baked, dried, dehydrated, desiccated, and strung on a 365 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,880 garland. Granted audience proudly put forth. Chat is this 366 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:20,325 is this chat. Chat is this riz? They, whoever they is, say, 367 00:24:21,365 --> 00:24:23,205 which I mean they probably don't. 368 00:24:23,205 --> 00:24:26,460 Right? They, again whoever that is, probably wrote it down, that 369 00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:30,620 you can't step in the same stream twice. So I lay down in 370 00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:34,540 it and try not to drown, washed over and watched over by an 371 00:24:34,540 --> 00:24:38,620 abstracted and conglomerated concept of community, a machine 372 00:24:38,620 --> 00:24:41,100 with meats taped to its interface, which if I'm being 373 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:45,215 honest, does pull off a fairly convincing impersonation. Oh, 374 00:24:45,455 --> 00:24:47,615 never mind. It was Heraclitus. 375 00:24:47,615 --> 00:24:53,135 He probably did say it. But wait. No. That's not right. Not 376 00:24:53,135 --> 00:24:56,840 the attribution, but the machine and its impersonation of people, 377 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,440 which it is in a sense in our kitchens and offices and living 378 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,200 rooms and gamer chairs lit ever so subtly by the glow of our 379 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,275 joma oma USB wireless mouse rechargeable light up mouse for 380 00:25:08,275 --> 00:25:11,235 laptop small cordless mice with quiet click LED rainbow lights 381 00:25:11,235 --> 00:25:14,995 for PC computer Chromebook Windows white pink I y k y k. 382 00:25:15,715 --> 00:25:20,595 And y k, I know you do. What would it feel like to not have 383 00:25:20,595 --> 00:25:27,910 heard of Should we feel left alone in the dark? Where else 384 00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:31,990 but there do we find ourselves in its midst, the early morning 385 00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:36,325 or the late evening stroll? Wittgenstein asks, do we escape 386 00:25:36,325 --> 00:25:39,845 loneliness as does a child upon the simple realization that we 387 00:25:39,845 --> 00:25:46,725 are not ever actually alone? Loneliness is a lie perhaps, 388 00:25:46,725 --> 00:25:49,045 though this doesn't make its opposite any less of a curse. 389 00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:53,230 I'm still in the stream washed over, less so in, more so am 390 00:25:53,230 --> 00:25:56,590 increasingly. I feel the same and the stream does too and 391 00:25:56,590 --> 00:25:59,950 maybe that's it. Maybe Heraclitus was full of it. The 392 00:25:59,950 --> 00:26:04,935 stream never washes over the same me. New again, always, but 393 00:26:04,935 --> 00:26:06,615 with the appearance of consistency. 394 00:26:06,855 --> 00:26:10,695 Lonely because even myself departs regularly, alone but for 395 00:26:10,695 --> 00:26:19,490 the presence of chat. Ourselves a chance? If we can't? Chat be 396 00:26:19,490 --> 00:26:22,770 with you. And also with you. 397 00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:27,410 Here comes everybody, they said. Except this time, I know who 398 00:26:27,410 --> 00:26:30,415 said it, and I know he wrote it down. But quick follow-up, where 399 00:26:30,415 --> 00:26:36,815 did they go? We arrived together. But it seems over the 400 00:26:36,815 --> 00:26:39,855 last umpteen years, all we've really done is depart alone. 401 00:26:40,175 --> 00:26:44,415 Leaving bit by bit by bit by bit by bit, they're 64 bits now, as 402 00:26:44,415 --> 00:26:47,580 atoms sloughing off some aggregate hole to form the 403 00:26:47,580 --> 00:26:53,340 previously attested distributed locus. We were we, but now, what 404 00:26:53,340 --> 00:27:01,765 is there? Distantly. Chat. Pangaea like some impressive 405 00:27:01,765 --> 00:27:05,125 mass was blasted apart by forces seemingly geological, but which 406 00:27:05,125 --> 00:27:07,685 in fact were men blue lit. 407 00:27:07,685 --> 00:27:10,325 They want you to think they're earth like in their immovability 408 00:27:10,325 --> 00:27:12,485 and for furthering such falsehoods, I would like to 409 00:27:12,485 --> 00:27:16,590 apologize, but the point remains, they enclosed open air 410 00:27:16,750 --> 00:27:21,630 and I, at least, dutifully occupied my corner. We would say 411 00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:24,990 that this IP or that IP were ways to gather groups inclined 412 00:27:24,990 --> 00:27:28,430 to collaborate in either sense, but blind, again, myself at 413 00:27:28,430 --> 00:27:31,935 least to the fact that we were gathering hostages, more or 414 00:27:31,935 --> 00:27:39,135 less. We were and built what would become chat. Sorry. Sorry? 415 00:27:40,335 --> 00:27:44,990 Sorry, I think. But it was what I wanted and what I was told I 416 00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:49,630 wanted. And what is posting but desire and one occasionally 417 00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:53,150 shared, however misguided. Wittgenstein, again, our 418 00:27:53,150 --> 00:28:00,615 greatest stupidities may be very wise. For what without chat 419 00:28:00,775 --> 00:28:02,135 would we now have? 420 00:28:07,175 --> 00:28:11,415 Community is a metaphor the way it's used. A genre designation 421 00:28:11,415 --> 00:28:14,490 for a type of mundane gathering versus something which 422 00:28:14,490 --> 00:28:17,370 represents the actual meaning intended by the word when used 423 00:28:17,370 --> 00:28:22,250 elsewhere, implying ethics of care or camaraderie, mutuality. 424 00:28:22,410 --> 00:28:25,850 Community here, chat, means all pointed in the same direction 425 00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:29,605 for a little while together, the end. Greet thy neighbor. Greet 426 00:28:29,605 --> 00:28:30,405 thy neighbor. 427 00:28:30,405 --> 00:28:35,445 Watch. What stops chat from turning inward and away from 428 00:28:35,445 --> 00:28:41,285 their post? Abandoning it, say. What stops us from crawling out 429 00:28:41,285 --> 00:28:42,645 of the stream? The same. 430 00:28:42,645 --> 00:28:45,940 Different. Nothing but technological infrastructure 431 00:28:45,940 --> 00:28:49,780 that insists we don't and rewards meagerly continued 432 00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:54,500 adherence to the idea that what has been arranged is the 433 00:28:55,140 --> 00:29:08,175 arrangement. Chat, show me the way. Here is the way. Here is 434 00:29:08,590 --> 00:29:09,070 the way. 435 00:29:48,170 --> 00:29:50,010 Hans Buetow: Oh, man. I love a white oak. 436 00:29:54,465 --> 00:29:59,905 Just the shape of it. Getting that sun and all 437 00:29:59,905 --> 00:30:00,625 of a sudden 438 00:30:01,265 --> 00:30:03,025 Yeah. Warms up a little. 439 00:30:03,105 --> 00:30:05,345 Amy: Right? Because we're still in the time of, like, no leaf 440 00:30:05,345 --> 00:30:05,745 cover. 441 00:30:05,745 --> 00:30:11,800 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Yeah. Hear the peepers. 442 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,355 Amy: So is that a cardinal? 443 00:30:20,355 --> 00:30:25,235 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Yeah. You can tell by the long staccato. But 444 00:30:25,235 --> 00:30:25,555 it's 445 00:30:25,555 --> 00:30:25,955 Amy: it's, like, 446 00:30:25,955 --> 00:30:27,395 two different sounds. It's can can we 447 00:30:27,395 --> 00:30:28,195 Hans Buetow: can Yep. Yep. Yep. 448 00:30:28,195 --> 00:30:30,995 Amy: Okay. Yeah. Good. I'm wondering at what point it gets 449 00:30:30,995 --> 00:30:31,395 immersion. 450 00:30:33,730 --> 00:30:35,810 Hans Buetow: Yeah. And you can see little patches of the marsh 451 00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:38,770 marigolds kinda hidden in there. Like, there's a whole bunch of 452 00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:43,890 patch in the marsh. Kinda see it over there. Here, if you step 453 00:30:43,890 --> 00:30:46,365 over step over this way, you see a little bit of yellow. 454 00:30:46,365 --> 00:30:46,845 Oh, yeah. 455 00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:50,125 Yeah. Like, on the other side of the marsh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and 456 00:30:50,125 --> 00:30:50,845 there's something. 457 00:30:50,845 --> 00:30:55,885 Okay. Oh, prickly ash. Okay. You can see it right there. There's 458 00:30:55,885 --> 00:30:57,965 something big and green coming up. 459 00:30:58,525 --> 00:30:59,805 Oh, yeah. Big leaves. 460 00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:05,460 Yeah. I know it's way too far away to tell what, but that's 461 00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:06,900 the biggest leaf I've seen so far. 462 00:31:28,905 --> 00:31:31,130 Tori Dominguez Peak: We're living in a time where it seems 463 00:31:31,130 --> 00:31:36,090 like the Internet is actively downgrading. We've witnessed the 464 00:31:36,090 --> 00:31:40,410 fall of various social media platforms, the rise of slop, and 465 00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:44,775 the gradual erasure of a lot of the Internet's quirkier places. 466 00:31:46,615 --> 00:31:51,655 So to remind us of where we came from for just a few minutes, I 467 00:31:51,655 --> 00:31:56,180 wanna take you, dear listener, through a guided visualization 468 00:31:56,180 --> 00:32:04,980 exercise with me to the Internet of my childhood. Take a few deep 469 00:32:04,980 --> 00:32:09,935 breaths. Maybe close your eyes. 470 00:32:10,335 --> 00:32:14,575 Unless you're driving, please do not close your eyes if you're 471 00:32:14,575 --> 00:32:24,990 driving. Everyone else, shut your peepers. Okay? It's 2,005. 472 00:32:25,310 --> 00:32:29,870 You just got back home from elementary school, and you make 473 00:32:29,870 --> 00:32:32,830 a beeline for the back of the house. 474 00:32:32,830 --> 00:32:37,165 You pass the kitchen. You pass the hallway. You pass your 475 00:32:37,165 --> 00:32:41,885 brother. He is playing Prince of Persia, The Sands of Time on his 476 00:32:41,885 --> 00:32:46,525 Nintendo GameCube because, of course, he does. And you get to 477 00:32:46,525 --> 00:32:49,005 that little spare room in the back of the house. 478 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:57,770 And there lies the family computer. It's a PC with the CRT 479 00:32:57,770 --> 00:33:02,650 monitor. It has a fat backside. And underneath your desk is a 480 00:33:02,650 --> 00:33:06,735 bulky gray tower that sits on the carpet and a power button 481 00:33:06,735 --> 00:33:13,455 that glows light blue when you press it. You log on to the 482 00:33:13,455 --> 00:33:15,135 world wide web. 483 00:33:16,815 --> 00:33:20,360 Your parents are pretty tech savvy, and they made a login for 484 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,360 you with parental controls on the browser. You're only allowed 485 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:30,120 to visit three websites. Number one, cartoon network dot com. 486 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:36,615 Number two, nickelodeon dot com. And number three, Encyclopedia 487 00:33:36,615 --> 00:33:40,215 Britannica's website, britannica.com. 488 00:33:40,775 --> 00:33:46,450 You pick the first. Cartoon Network site is bright with lots 489 00:33:46,450 --> 00:33:51,170 of primary colors. There's a bunch of icons all lined up, and 490 00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:55,730 they're full of games based on your favorite TV shows. Teen 491 00:33:55,730 --> 00:34:02,035 Titans, Ed Ed and Eddy, Camp Laszlo. The list goes on. 492 00:34:02,195 --> 00:34:06,435 There's fighting games. Games that imitate arcade classics 493 00:34:06,435 --> 00:34:10,755 like breaker. And games that literally just depend on the 494 00:34:10,755 --> 00:34:15,630 click of a mouse. Like one of my favorites called Wee. In Wee, 495 00:34:15,630 --> 00:34:16,910 you play as Cheese. 496 00:34:16,910 --> 00:34:20,350 He's a character from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. And 497 00:34:20,350 --> 00:34:23,790 the whole object of the game is that by clicking, you can 498 00:34:23,790 --> 00:34:30,285 prevent Cheese from screaming as he is pushed downhill. Trust me 499 00:34:30,285 --> 00:34:41,405 on this one. It's fun. You spend the next hour immersed in these 500 00:34:41,405 --> 00:34:41,725 games. 501 00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:45,430 You try out different genres. You learn what it's like to 502 00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:49,430 compete with yourself, and you start to get into a flow state. 503 00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:53,670 You look up at the corner of your monitor, and you realize 504 00:34:53,670 --> 00:34:58,165 you've beaten your own personal high score. Look at you. You're 505 00:34:58,165 --> 00:34:59,765 getting better every day. 506 00:35:01,765 --> 00:35:05,445 But soon enough, you hear your name echoing down the hallway. 507 00:35:05,765 --> 00:35:11,920 It's your mom. She's calling you for dinner. You exit out of the 508 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:19,280 browser and turn off the computer. This was childhood for 509 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,480 me in the February. 510 00:35:21,435 --> 00:35:24,235 And those games I played were developed on a program called 511 00:35:24,235 --> 00:35:29,355 Adobe Flash. Flash made making games accessible. You didn't 512 00:35:29,355 --> 00:35:32,475 have to have any experience with coding to make a decent Flash 513 00:35:32,475 --> 00:35:33,035 game. 514 00:35:33,595 --> 00:35:36,475 Raven: Whole bunch of developers just got their start with Flash. 515 00:35:37,470 --> 00:35:39,870 Tori Dominguez Peak: This is Raven. She's an admin for the 516 00:35:39,870 --> 00:35:43,310 Flashpoint archive. They've been preserving games and animations 517 00:35:43,310 --> 00:35:45,470 that were made using Flash Player. 518 00:35:45,550 --> 00:35:47,950 Raven: And then from there, they probably learned, like, an 519 00:35:47,950 --> 00:35:50,510 actual like, a a programming language and then, like, 520 00:35:50,895 --> 00:35:54,415 implemented that into, like, Unity or Unreal, and then now, 521 00:35:54,415 --> 00:35:56,735 today are, like, actually working on, like, triple a 522 00:35:56,735 --> 00:36:01,935 releases. Yeah. So it's just an important stepping stone in, 523 00:36:02,175 --> 00:36:03,455 like, the history of gaming. 524 00:36:04,270 --> 00:36:07,150 Tori Dominguez Peak: Beyond flash games being a tool to hook 525 00:36:07,150 --> 00:36:10,670 people with the thrill of programming because they were so 526 00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:14,750 easy to build, companies started to see their value in hooking 527 00:36:14,750 --> 00:36:16,990 people with the thrill of buying things. 528 00:36:17,815 --> 00:36:19,735 Phil Salvador: Early in the history of the game industry and 529 00:36:19,735 --> 00:36:21,975 in sort of, you know, these new section that would sprout up 530 00:36:21,975 --> 00:36:24,775 like web games, they were treated more disposably. 531 00:36:24,855 --> 00:36:27,335 Tori Dominguez Peak: That's Phil Salvador. He's the library 532 00:36:27,335 --> 00:36:29,735 director at the Video Game History Foundation. 533 00:36:30,030 --> 00:36:31,950 Phil Salvador: They were treated as toys. It wasn't something 534 00:36:31,950 --> 00:36:34,910 that you saw as a long term investment. It was a product you 535 00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:36,750 put out or a promotion you did. 536 00:36:37,310 --> 00:36:40,750 Tori Dominguez Peak: So a ton of flash games were made. A lot of 537 00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:43,790 them appeared on websites aimed at children who had limited 538 00:36:43,790 --> 00:36:48,615 access to the web, like me. And they were used as interactive 539 00:36:48,615 --> 00:36:52,375 advertisements to those children as well. Companies like Bubble 540 00:36:52,375 --> 00:36:55,335 Yum and Popsicle made their own flash games promoting their 541 00:36:55,335 --> 00:36:55,975 products. 542 00:36:56,455 --> 00:36:57,975 Phil Salvador: And it wasn't something that you thought, hey, 543 00:36:58,050 --> 00:37:01,330 Thirty years later, we're going to remonetize this and put out 544 00:37:01,330 --> 00:37:04,130 the deluxe version of, you know, Bubble Spinner, for instance. 545 00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:07,010 Tori Dominguez Peak: But while a lot of Flash games were meant 546 00:37:07,010 --> 00:37:11,835 for temporary consumption or had simple gameplay, they held a 547 00:37:11,835 --> 00:37:18,475 real value for me. So I was an air force brat, meaning my dad 548 00:37:18,475 --> 00:37:22,475 was an officer, and military families tend to move around 549 00:37:22,475 --> 00:37:26,940 pretty often. And in the summer of o five, my family moved from 550 00:37:26,940 --> 00:37:30,620 Louisiana to the Washington DC area. I was actually 551 00:37:30,620 --> 00:37:33,580 homeschooled for the first year that we lived there, and the 552 00:37:33,580 --> 00:37:37,340 neighborhood we lived in was still being built. Families were 553 00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:38,985 just beginning to move in. 554 00:37:39,785 --> 00:37:44,745 All that to say, I didn't really have friends. And so for months, 555 00:37:44,745 --> 00:37:48,505 I would spend hours a day playing flash games. They were 556 00:37:48,505 --> 00:37:54,070 my companions. Eventually, I started going to regular school 557 00:37:54,070 --> 00:37:58,790 again and made friends. And in 02/2006, the next year, the 558 00:37:58,790 --> 00:38:01,830 Nintendo Wii came out, and I got it for my eighth birthday. 559 00:38:03,135 --> 00:38:07,615 Once I had the Wii, I largely stopped playing flash games. I 560 00:38:07,615 --> 00:38:11,615 mean, I got my hands on masterpieces like Wii Sports and 561 00:38:11,615 --> 00:38:18,080 The Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess. Time went on, and I 562 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:25,520 almost forgot about Flash games entirely. But in 2017, Adobe 563 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:31,040 announced that by 2021, it would discontinue Flash Player, which 564 00:38:29,675 --> 00:38:35,435 ran all of those old web games. Times have changed, and Apple, 565 00:38:35,435 --> 00:38:39,835 with its revolutionary impact on touchscreen devices, was a 566 00:38:39,835 --> 00:38:42,635 really big factor in Adobe's decision. 567 00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:48,370 At this point in my life, I was in my late teens and early 568 00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:52,450 twenties, and it had been years since my last CartoonNetwork.com 569 00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:58,770 gaming session. But I felt a pang of sadness. A part of my 570 00:38:58,770 --> 00:39:10,185 childhood would just be gone. I mean, I kind of figured that in 571 00:39:10,185 --> 00:39:14,090 the years after Teen Titans and Ed and Eddy were canceled, their 572 00:39:14,090 --> 00:39:17,850 IP wouldn't be as culturally relevant anymore, and those 573 00:39:17,850 --> 00:39:22,330 games could be sunset off of Cartoon Network's website. But 574 00:39:22,330 --> 00:39:26,810 for all Flash games to be gone because of a technical phasing 575 00:39:26,810 --> 00:39:31,055 out, That had never crossed my mind. 576 00:39:32,495 --> 00:39:35,615 And then a couple of years later, I was listening to NPR, 577 00:39:35,615 --> 00:39:39,455 and I heard this wild statistic from the Video Game History 578 00:39:39,455 --> 00:39:44,350 Foundation. Eighty seven percent of classic games released in The 579 00:39:44,350 --> 00:39:49,230 US were out of print. And by classic games, by the way, they 580 00:39:49,230 --> 00:39:54,110 mean games that came out before 2010. The stat reminded me of 581 00:39:54,110 --> 00:39:58,735 the removal of Flash Player. And it got me wondering, what does 582 00:39:58,735 --> 00:40:01,375 it mean for a game to disappear? 583 00:40:02,015 --> 00:40:03,855 Phil Salvador: It means that there's no way to get the game 584 00:40:03,855 --> 00:40:06,735 from the rights holders anymore. And to be clear, that doesn't 585 00:40:06,735 --> 00:40:09,295 mean the game isn't playable anymore because there isn't a 586 00:40:09,295 --> 00:40:10,575 lot of preservation work happening. 587 00:40:11,260 --> 00:40:13,180 Tori Dominguez Peak: Phil has dedicated his career to 588 00:40:13,180 --> 00:40:16,300 preserving video games, especially those that are being 589 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:16,940 lost. 590 00:40:17,260 --> 00:40:19,500 Phil Salvador: I've always been interested since I was a kid, 591 00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:21,500 but I don't think I have the same story as a lot of people 592 00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:23,980 do. There was a computer game that came out in the early 593 00:40:23,980 --> 00:40:28,815 nineties called The Lost Souls of Tongnao. It's this surreal 594 00:40:28,815 --> 00:40:33,295 artistic Japanese game that's sort of a a Zen parable that, it 595 00:40:33,295 --> 00:40:36,255 is surreal and bizarre, and it was one of the first computer 596 00:40:36,255 --> 00:40:39,840 games I ever played, and I spent really, the rest of my childhood 597 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,440 and early adulthood trying to track down what this game was. I 598 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,840 doubt it's ever going to get rereleased, but it is 599 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,800 fascinating. An example of the kind of really interesting 600 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,240 artistic kind of avant garde or, you know, outside the mainstream 601 00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:55,265 experiences that can get lost in the cracks when you are 602 00:40:55,265 --> 00:40:57,825 rereleasing video games and the stuff that actually makes money 603 00:40:57,825 --> 00:41:00,945 is, you know, Sonic the Hedgehog versus Eastern Mind of the Lost 604 00:41:00,945 --> 00:41:02,065 Souls of Tongue Now. 605 00:41:02,145 --> 00:41:04,705 Tori Dominguez Peak: Games like Eastern Mind, the Lost Souls of 606 00:41:04,705 --> 00:41:09,250 Tongue Now aren't available from their original publisher, which 607 00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:12,690 means it's exactly what the Video Game History Foundation 608 00:41:12,690 --> 00:41:14,450 would call out of print. 609 00:41:14,450 --> 00:41:16,450 Phil Salvador: Many of those games, there is no you can't get 610 00:41:16,450 --> 00:41:19,570 it on Nintendo Switch. You can't get it on Steam. Yeah. You can 611 00:41:19,570 --> 00:41:22,225 get the game. You can play the game. 612 00:41:22,225 --> 00:41:25,025 You can often play it with a lot of quality of life improvements. 613 00:41:25,105 --> 00:41:27,585 It's just not sanctioned by the copyright holder. 614 00:41:27,745 --> 00:41:30,865 Tori Dominguez Peak: So Eastern Mind is available to play on 615 00:41:30,865 --> 00:41:35,130 game preservation sites like myabandonware.com. But it 616 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:38,810 doesn't seem like Sony is, you know, hankering to put it on the 617 00:41:38,810 --> 00:41:43,530 PlayStation network anytime soon. Remastering, remaking, or 618 00:41:43,530 --> 00:41:47,370 just making available the most popular classic games on modern 619 00:41:47,370 --> 00:41:50,145 consoles, which is called porting, is something that game 620 00:41:50,145 --> 00:41:54,305 publishers have done a lot of in the last decade. But the games 621 00:41:54,305 --> 00:41:58,145 that get this treatment and stay in print have the financial 622 00:41:58,145 --> 00:42:02,780 backing to do so in huge audiences. For example, one of 623 00:42:02,780 --> 00:42:07,500 my favorite video games as a kid was, surprise, The Legend of 624 00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:09,340 Zelda Ocarina of Time. 625 00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:13,660 It's one of the most revered games to exist. It's been ported 626 00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:17,715 over to the Nintendo Switch's online service and previous 627 00:42:17,715 --> 00:42:23,235 Nintendo consoles. It even got a remake in 2013. But web based 628 00:42:23,235 --> 00:42:27,075 games like a lot of these flash games, which were often made by 629 00:42:27,075 --> 00:42:30,570 very small teams and seen as disposable. These games hung in 630 00:42:30,570 --> 00:42:31,290 the balance. 631 00:42:31,850 --> 00:42:36,010 Publishers didn't invest in keeping them in print. And so 632 00:42:36,010 --> 00:42:38,970 when they're not in print, do they exist? 633 00:42:39,370 --> 00:42:41,130 Phil Salvador: I think when you're telling the story of 634 00:42:41,130 --> 00:42:45,065 video games, it's very easy to fall into this very linear story 635 00:42:45,065 --> 00:42:48,505 of, you know, Atari existed, then Nintendo came along, and 636 00:42:48,505 --> 00:42:51,705 then Sega, and the console wars, and PlayStation. But video games 637 00:42:51,705 --> 00:42:54,185 mean so much more than that. There's things like, you know, 638 00:42:54,185 --> 00:42:56,585 promotional games, like games you would play on Neopets to get 639 00:42:56,585 --> 00:42:59,930 Neopoints from that were, like, tie ins to promote Shrek two or 640 00:42:59,930 --> 00:43:02,650 whatever they had up there. But there were also interesting, 641 00:43:02,650 --> 00:43:05,930 unique artistic experiences made with Flash. When you look at 642 00:43:05,930 --> 00:43:08,810 what Flash games as a category as a whole were, they represent 643 00:43:08,810 --> 00:43:12,250 this democratization not just of game development, but also of 644 00:43:12,250 --> 00:43:14,815 game publishing at an era before that really hit sort of the 645 00:43:14,815 --> 00:43:16,575 mainstream commercial industry. 646 00:43:16,655 --> 00:43:19,455 If you cut the history out of video games, you're left with an 647 00:43:19,455 --> 00:43:22,095 incomplete picture of what that media means. 648 00:43:24,495 --> 00:43:26,735 Tori Dominguez Peak: In the grand scheme of media things, 649 00:43:26,990 --> 00:43:32,110 video games are pretty new. But like all media, they reflect the 650 00:43:32,110 --> 00:43:36,030 times we live in and all the anxieties we have. I mean, kids 651 00:43:36,030 --> 00:43:39,630 who grew up during the war on terror made Call of Duty a huge 652 00:43:39,630 --> 00:43:43,355 hit. And during the pandemic, people played Animal Crossing 653 00:43:43,355 --> 00:43:47,435 New Horizons as a form of self soothing. And they've taken on a 654 00:43:47,435 --> 00:43:50,235 bigger share of the pop culture consciousness. 655 00:43:50,795 --> 00:43:54,315 Some of this year's biggest TV and movie releases have been 656 00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:59,510 adaptations of video games, like The Last of Us and Minecraft. 657 00:44:00,310 --> 00:44:03,590 And while the Video Game History Foundation doesn't do a whole 658 00:44:03,590 --> 00:44:07,590 lot of web based game preservation, Phil knows some 659 00:44:07,590 --> 00:44:11,025 folks who do. Remember Raven from earlier? 660 00:44:11,025 --> 00:44:14,625 Raven: My name is Raven, and I serve as one of the admins for 661 00:44:14,625 --> 00:44:16,065 the Flashpoint archive. 662 00:44:16,065 --> 00:44:18,145 Tori Dominguez Peak: The Flashpoint archive is a project 663 00:44:18,145 --> 00:44:21,930 that preserves web based games and animations. It started in 664 00:44:21,930 --> 00:44:26,090 2017 when Adobe first announced that by 2021, it would 665 00:44:26,090 --> 00:44:29,850 discontinue Flash Player, which ran these games. Times have 666 00:44:29,850 --> 00:44:33,050 changed, technology had progressed, and Apple's decision 667 00:44:33,050 --> 00:44:36,905 to not support Flash Player on touchscreen devices spelled the 668 00:44:36,905 --> 00:44:40,665 end for the program. The work is done by an online community 669 00:44:40,665 --> 00:44:43,785 who's passionate about preservation. They do it without 670 00:44:43,785 --> 00:44:44,345 pay. 671 00:44:44,425 --> 00:44:47,785 Raven: I saw, like, a like, a Kotaku article on it, and I 672 00:44:47,785 --> 00:44:50,105 thought, that's interesting. And then I joined the the Discord 673 00:44:50,105 --> 00:44:54,110 server. So now, a couple years later, I was serving as the 674 00:44:54,110 --> 00:44:55,070 admin for that. 675 00:44:55,630 --> 00:44:57,390 Tori Dominguez Peak: Flashpoint's library now 676 00:44:57,390 --> 00:45:03,550 includes over 200,000 games. And as a diligent journalist, I had 677 00:45:03,550 --> 00:45:08,885 to do my research. I headed to the Flashpoint archive site, and 678 00:45:08,885 --> 00:45:12,565 there they were. The bright colors, the funny animations, 679 00:45:12,565 --> 00:45:16,485 the horrible crunchy audio. Those were flash games. 680 00:45:16,965 --> 00:45:20,640 And, of course, they had the ones I remembered. Suddenly, I 681 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,000 was fighting off Slade's minions in the Teen Titans flash game 682 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:30,240 and racing in go karts against SpongeBob SquarePants. I just, 683 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:33,415 like, realized that I was smiling really big. It was just, 684 00:45:33,415 --> 00:45:35,975 like, this really great moment of, like, oh my god, I'm getting 685 00:45:35,975 --> 00:45:39,335 to play this thing I played on the family computer when I was 686 00:45:39,335 --> 00:45:43,335 six again. And I never thought I would be able to do that again. 687 00:45:43,575 --> 00:45:46,810 Raven: Yeah. That's, like, the the biggest, like, strong point 688 00:45:46,810 --> 00:45:49,610 of the archive. It's just like, there's just so much, especially 689 00:45:49,610 --> 00:45:52,890 of like the really, really popular stuff. Like, we have, 690 00:45:52,970 --> 00:45:54,730 like, you know, there's thousands of games and 691 00:45:54,810 --> 00:45:55,450 Tori Dominguez Peak: Oh, yeah. 692 00:45:55,530 --> 00:45:58,330 Raven: You probably remember a couple handful and you probably 693 00:45:58,330 --> 00:46:01,775 never expected to be able to play them again because a lot of 694 00:46:01,775 --> 00:46:04,975 the, like, reporting on Flash is, like, End of Viath was so, 695 00:46:04,975 --> 00:46:08,175 like, it's going away forever. You will never see it again. 696 00:46:08,175 --> 00:46:11,775 Yeah. And that just was not true at all. Like, you can absolutely 697 00:46:11,775 --> 00:46:15,135 still play those games in a multitude of ways, including 698 00:46:15,135 --> 00:46:18,960 just on, like, an old browser that still has Flash. 699 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,680 Like, Newgrounds and Armored Games and Congregate, they're 700 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,000 all, like, they still have the games up. 701 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,480 Tori Dominguez Peak: But Raven also says that Flash games were 702 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,800 more than playable advertisements for snack 703 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,440 companies and fair for children's websites. 704 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,655 Raven: I mean, we got a bunch of indie games that came from 705 00:46:33,655 --> 00:46:37,175 Flash. Like, Meat Boy started as as Meat Boy on Newgrounds. We 706 00:46:37,175 --> 00:46:40,695 got that. We got the N series, which is, like, still is around 707 00:46:40,695 --> 00:46:43,095 today. We got so many, like, wonderful experiences. 708 00:46:43,095 --> 00:46:45,175 Like, Binding of Isaac started out on here. 709 00:46:45,790 --> 00:46:47,150 Tori Dominguez Peak: Oh, wow. I didn't know that. 710 00:46:47,150 --> 00:46:49,550 Raven: Like, so much of Flash is, like, reflective of what was 711 00:46:49,550 --> 00:46:51,870 going on in the world. Like, there's so many, like, works 712 00:46:51,870 --> 00:46:55,070 about, like, George Bush and, like, the two thousands, and 713 00:46:55,070 --> 00:46:58,270 it's, like Yeah. That's just so much interesting context of, 714 00:46:58,270 --> 00:47:01,235 like, the Internet's perception of things. And if, like, all the 715 00:47:01,235 --> 00:47:03,795 Flash were just disappear tomorrow, like, we would lose so 716 00:47:03,795 --> 00:47:08,035 much context of not only, like, events that happened, but also, 717 00:47:08,035 --> 00:47:10,195 like, the Internet's response to that. Like 718 00:47:10,435 --> 00:47:10,675 Mike Rugnetta: Mhmm. 719 00:47:10,755 --> 00:47:12,915 Raven: It's important that we have these. In the sense of, 720 00:47:12,915 --> 00:47:16,550 like, social media and, like, like, Twitter and Tumblr and, 721 00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:19,350 like, like, Facebook or and Reddit are just so important to, 722 00:47:19,350 --> 00:47:21,190 like, understanding the world. 723 00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:26,865 Tori Dominguez Peak: We think we can find just about everything 724 00:47:26,865 --> 00:47:30,385 on the internet. And we also feel a sense of ownership of 725 00:47:30,385 --> 00:47:35,345 being able to find what we want, when we want, and preferably for 726 00:47:35,345 --> 00:47:39,920 free. Like, what do you mean that game is gone forever? Isn't 727 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,680 there just an emulator somewhere that can run that? Yeah. 728 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,160 Usually there is, but that's not a given. It's thanks to an 729 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,920 immense amount of work done by archivists who basically perform 730 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,975 free labor because it's their passion. It's like walking into 731 00:47:55,975 --> 00:48:00,535 a lush, beautiful garden and wondering how so many delicate 732 00:48:00,535 --> 00:48:05,175 types of plants are still alive no matter the climate. In our 733 00:48:05,175 --> 00:48:10,060 garden of digital media, trust me here, we keep these gaming 734 00:48:10,060 --> 00:48:14,860 plants alive because archivists have been watering and pruning 735 00:48:14,860 --> 00:48:16,540 and tending to them. 736 00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:21,820 Phil Salvador: Preservation is never something that happens in 737 00:48:21,820 --> 00:48:24,775 the past tense. It is always happening. That if you have a 738 00:48:24,775 --> 00:48:27,415 file, you know, there's no guarantee that the file is going 739 00:48:27,415 --> 00:48:30,215 to, you know, work in dozens of years. Maybe that hard drive is 740 00:48:30,215 --> 00:48:34,055 going to fail. Maybe, you know, the the file type that it's in 741 00:48:34,055 --> 00:48:36,055 is not going to be compatible in the future. 742 00:48:36,215 --> 00:48:38,455 Even just doing digital preservation work now, you know, 743 00:48:38,455 --> 00:48:41,700 we have backups people made years ago, and they're in 744 00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:45,060 formats that there's no documentation for. Right? So 745 00:48:45,060 --> 00:48:47,380 even if you're trying to, you know, hey. We've preserved this 746 00:48:47,380 --> 00:48:48,740 thing. We have it in this format. 747 00:48:48,740 --> 00:48:51,220 It's up here. It's available. There has to be this kind of 748 00:48:51,555 --> 00:48:55,395 ongoing custodianship of it to make sure it stays accessible, 749 00:48:55,395 --> 00:48:58,515 whether that is making sure we have emulators that still work 750 00:48:58,515 --> 00:49:01,715 today or even just making sure there's not just a single point 751 00:49:01,715 --> 00:49:04,915 of failure for this game, that if a website goes down or a hard 752 00:49:04,915 --> 00:49:08,080 drive breaks or a CD starts to rot, that we have some way to 753 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,360 continue accessing it. 754 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,120 Tori Dominguez Peak: Yeah. He it's like a Library of 755 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,600 Alexandria sort of thing. Don't wanna, like, lose. 756 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,360 Phil Salvador: Yeah. Everything 757 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,520 is always decaying, and that sounds bleak, but it just means 758 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,155 that preservation is done by people. There's no solution 759 00:49:24,155 --> 00:49:27,035 where it's just like, hey, I put this thing in the blockchain. 760 00:49:27,035 --> 00:49:29,275 It's like, no. You have to make sure that there's always going 761 00:49:29,275 --> 00:49:32,395 to be people who know how to work with this stuff and make it 762 00:49:32,395 --> 00:49:35,755 available in a format people can actually use, rather than 763 00:49:35,340 --> 00:49:38,540 putting it assuming the problem is going to be taken care of, 764 00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:40,620 then you come back thirty years later and think, oh, I can't 765 00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:43,580 really do anything with this. It's not about will this be 766 00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:44,620 available tomorrow? 767 00:49:44,620 --> 00:49:48,140 It's is can we build something that's going to persist and 768 00:49:48,140 --> 00:49:51,305 still map games available after we're dead? After all the 769 00:49:51,305 --> 00:49:54,825 hardware has failed, do we have some sustainable solutions for 770 00:49:54,825 --> 00:49:57,465 making sure people can still access this stuff in the long 771 00:49:57,465 --> 00:49:58,025 term future? 772 00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:07,660 Tori Dominguez Peak: Personally, I hope that a hundred years from 773 00:50:07,660 --> 00:50:09,980 now, historians are playing. 774 00:50:22,555 --> 00:50:28,395 Hans Buetow: Those are cowbirds. Amy. Cowbirds. 775 00:50:30,155 --> 00:50:33,020 There's a little bit right there. And 776 00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:35,180 those guys are woodpecker. And 777 00:50:36,140 --> 00:50:37,180 then there's that, 778 00:50:40,940 --> 00:50:46,635 which is maybe a hawk, maybe a turkey vulture. Two in the trees 779 00:50:46,635 --> 00:50:48,955 to see. And 780 00:50:50,075 --> 00:50:51,995 nope. Wow. 781 00:50:51,995 --> 00:50:54,155 I think it's a hawk. 782 00:50:55,995 --> 00:51:07,910 And down. Oh, into the tree. 783 00:51:09,590 --> 00:51:11,030 Yeah. That's a hawk. 784 00:51:12,310 --> 00:51:14,070 Amy: I have never seen a hawk in a body. 785 00:51:16,155 --> 00:51:17,035 Hans Buetow: How they're spelled? 786 00:51:27,690 --> 00:51:43,475 Mike Rugnetta: That is the show we have for you this week. We're 787 00:51:43,475 --> 00:51:47,235 gonna be back here in the main feed on Wednesday, May 21. The 788 00:51:47,235 --> 00:51:50,915 following is a list of books that you can get for $4 from 789 00:51:50,915 --> 00:51:54,580 abooks.com. Look what you can make with boxes Published by 790 00:51:54,580 --> 00:51:58,900 Boyd's Mills Press nineteen ninety eight. ISBN ten one five 791 00:51:58,900 --> 00:52:02,020 six three nine seven nine six zero eight. 792 00:52:02,020 --> 00:52:05,780 Dispatches from the Edge, a memoir of war, disasters, and 793 00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:10,755 survival by Anderson Cooper. ISBN ten zero zero six one one 794 00:52:10,755 --> 00:52:14,355 three two three eight one. A primer of mathematical writing 795 00:52:14,355 --> 00:52:17,475 being a disquisition on having your ideas recorded typeset 796 00:52:17,475 --> 00:52:22,350 published read and appreciated by Steven G Krantz. ISBN 10 o 797 00:52:22,350 --> 00:52:26,910 eight two one eight zero six three five one. Life is short. 798 00:52:26,910 --> 00:52:30,830 Wear your party pants. 10 simple truths that lead to an amazing 799 00:52:30,830 --> 00:52:36,225 life by Loretta LaRoche. ISBN ten one four zero one nine zero 800 00:52:36,225 --> 00:52:40,945 one four eight four, or you can support Neverpost for one month 801 00:52:40,945 --> 00:52:44,705 and get access to hours of exclusive member only content, 802 00:52:44,705 --> 00:52:47,585 including extended segments and interviews and sideshows like 803 00:52:47,585 --> 00:52:50,960 our sleep aid podcast, Slowpost, our watch along pod, Never 804 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,800 Watch, and our field recording podcast, Posts From The Field. 805 00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:00,160 Life is short. Wear those podcast party pants. 806 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,595 Neverpo.st. Become a member. Support independent technology 807 00:53:03,595 --> 00:53:10,715 and media criticism. Neverpost's producers are Audrey Evans, 808 00:53:10,715 --> 00:53:13,035 Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name, 809 00:53:13,035 --> 00:53:15,915 last name. Our senior producer is Hans Buto. 810 00:53:15,915 --> 00:53:19,520 Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer. The show's host, 811 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:30,720 that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. You are so opaque to me. Your brief 812 00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:34,885 moments of apparent transparency seem fraudulent windows in a 813 00:53:34,885 --> 00:53:39,045 brutalist structure everyone admires. The effort your life 814 00:53:39,045 --> 00:53:41,205 requires exhausts me. 815 00:53:42,005 --> 00:53:46,820 I am not kidding. Excerpt of they were not kidding in the 816 00:53:46,820 --> 00:53:54,340 fourteenth century by Maureen n McLean. Neverpost is a 817 00:53:54,340 --> 00:53:57,220 production of charts and leisure and is distributed by 818 00:53:57,220 --> 00:53:58,100 Radiotopia. 819 00:54:04,875 --> 00:54:05,835 Clip: That's gotta be good. 820 00:54:05,835 --> 00:54:08,715 Mike Rugnetta: Right? Gotta good. That's gotta be good.