1 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,305 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:15,305 --> 00:00:17,625 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:17,625 --> 00:00:21,945 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 11/18/2025 at 4 00:00:21,945 --> 00:00:27,890 02:16PM eastern, and we have a pugilistic show for you this 5 00:00:27,890 --> 00:00:33,170 week. Meagle shares her journey trying to rebuild her attention 6 00:00:33,170 --> 00:00:38,210 span after a stark realization about her phone usage, and then 7 00:00:38,370 --> 00:00:42,435 she chats with Emily Mazo and Muhammad Ali, organizers of the 8 00:00:42,435 --> 00:00:46,675 conference, New Luddism, Technology and Resistance in the 9 00:00:46,675 --> 00:00:50,835 Modern Workplace about regaining control over the technology that 10 00:00:50,835 --> 00:00:56,770 suffuses our work, our leisure time, our lives, and also 11 00:00:56,850 --> 00:01:00,050 machines. But right now, we're gonna take a quick break. 12 00:01:00,050 --> 00:01:02,290 You're gonna listen to some ads unless you're on the member 13 00:01:02,290 --> 00:01:05,010 feed. And when we return, we're gonna talk about a few of the 14 00:01:05,010 --> 00:01:07,570 things that have happened since the last time you heard from us. 15 00:01:09,565 --> 00:01:12,125 These boots were made for walking and that's just what 16 00:01:12,125 --> 00:01:15,245 they'll do. One of these days, these boots are gonna have five 17 00:01:15,245 --> 00:01:21,325 stories for you this week. Vine is back ish. 18 00:01:21,565 --> 00:01:24,620 Jack Dorsey, who you may know from his facial hair and other 19 00:01:24,620 --> 00:01:28,220 various questionable endeavors, is rebooting the six second 20 00:01:28,220 --> 00:01:32,620 video app Vine, once purchased and then shuddered by then 21 00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:37,100 Twitter as d Vine. Thanks to the efforts of the archive team and 22 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:40,615 others, Dorsey and co developer Rabble say the network will 23 00:01:40,615 --> 00:01:45,415 launch with a significant back catalog of Vines which creators 24 00:01:45,415 --> 00:01:49,495 can issue DMCA takedowns for if they wish to leave them lost to 25 00:01:49,495 --> 00:01:52,870 the sands of internet time. Rabble and Dorsey say they want 26 00:01:52,870 --> 00:01:56,790 to recapture a nostalgic version of the Internet and therefore 27 00:01:56,790 --> 00:02:01,430 will be launching Vine AI generated content free and will 28 00:02:01,430 --> 00:02:05,190 use external tools to verify that that which is uploaded is 29 00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:10,685 not generated. This move is at least partially confusing given 30 00:02:10,685 --> 00:02:13,805 that Dorsey's decentralized social networking protocol, 31 00:02:13,805 --> 00:02:18,365 Noster, forms the backbone of divine and lists on its website 32 00:02:18,525 --> 00:02:23,140 AI, making Noster the best for AI development and integration 33 00:02:23,140 --> 00:02:26,900 as one of its quote unquote pillars. This has led some 34 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,500 posters to wonder if the site will be AI free in order to 35 00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:34,260 guarantee a clean dataset for future model training endeavors. 36 00:02:35,775 --> 00:02:36,655 Clip: Know. Do it. 37 00:02:37,215 --> 00:02:39,775 Mike Rugnetta: Teen Vogue has been shuttered and will be 38 00:02:39,775 --> 00:02:44,095 folded into the larger Vogue brand at publisher Conde Nast. A 39 00:02:44,095 --> 00:02:47,455 surprising move from a publisher well known for wise forward 40 00:02:47,455 --> 00:02:50,860 thinking decisions concerning the longevity of impactful and 41 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:55,020 culturally relevant mastheads. 70% of the teen Vogue staff was 42 00:02:55,020 --> 00:02:58,380 laid off including its editor in chief, Virsha Sharma. The two 43 00:02:58,380 --> 00:03:01,100 decade old magazine was launched as a fashion and celebrity 44 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:05,485 gossip spin off of Vogue Proper, only to come into its own ten or 45 00:03:05,485 --> 00:03:09,165 so years ago as a hard hitting feminist leaning and politically 46 00:03:09,165 --> 00:03:13,085 engaged outlet focused on issues important to young people. The 47 00:03:13,085 --> 00:03:15,965 Roosevelt Institute called the closure, quote, evidence that 48 00:03:15,965 --> 00:03:19,140 corporate concentration eliminates innovative ideas and 49 00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:22,420 silences voices with less power, end quote. 50 00:03:22,420 --> 00:03:28,340 Mhmm. Kickstarter employees are no longer on strike. After seven 51 00:03:28,340 --> 00:03:31,625 months of bargaining and forty two days of pickets, 52 00:03:31,625 --> 00:03:34,825 demonstrations, live streams, the whole nine yards, they have 53 00:03:34,825 --> 00:03:38,825 won a contract with management which guarantees their four day 54 00:03:38,825 --> 00:03:41,625 work week and protects against attempts to change that policy 55 00:03:41,625 --> 00:03:45,190 down the line. They've bargained for an increase in the minimum 56 00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:49,910 salary floor up an average of 6%, as well as securing a one 57 00:03:49,910 --> 00:03:55,030 time $6,000 bonus for those at the low end of the pay scale and 58 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:57,590 more, including protections against replacing workers with 59 00:03:57,590 --> 00:04:01,285 AI or full time workers with contractors. To read more, head 60 00:04:01,285 --> 00:04:04,085 to kickstarterunited.org or check the link in the show 61 00:04:04,085 --> 00:04:04,485 notes. 62 00:04:04,485 --> 00:04:14,220 Nice work, friends. Very proud of you all. TikTok is launching 63 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:18,060 a podcast network. The social network is partnering with 64 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:21,820 iHeartMedia and among their endeavors is a network of quote 65 00:04:21,820 --> 00:04:27,105 up to 25 new podcasts hosted by TikTok creators as well as a 66 00:04:27,105 --> 00:04:30,385 national broadcast and digital radio channel, and a series of 67 00:04:30,385 --> 00:04:33,665 live event integrations according to an iHeart press 68 00:04:33,665 --> 00:04:37,185 release. IHeart will be building new production facilities in LA, 69 00:04:37,185 --> 00:04:40,280 New York, and Atlanta to support the project, and we'll partner 70 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:43,960 with broadcast radio to feature creators as well as songs made 71 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,120 popular on the short form video app. 72 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:56,465 Sure. Why not? I guess. And finally, sticking with TikTok, 73 00:04:56,465 --> 00:05:01,745 the shop, the TikTok shop is now the size of eBay. According to 74 00:05:01,745 --> 00:05:06,145 Wired, quote, analytics from firm Echotick estimates TikTok 75 00:05:06,145 --> 00:05:10,660 shop sold $19,000,000,000 worth of products globally from July 76 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:12,100 through September. 77 00:05:12,420 --> 00:05:14,900 The United States, its largest market, accounted for 78 00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:19,380 4,000,000,000 to 4,500,000,000.0 in sales, an increase of about 79 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:25,145 125% compared to the 2025. To put those numbers in 80 00:05:25,145 --> 00:05:29,945 perspective, eBay saw $20,100,000,000 in total sales 81 00:05:29,945 --> 00:05:43,920 in the last quarter, end quote. In show news this week, catch me 82 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,880 on this week's episode of Normal Gossip where I share a story 83 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,535 about a rich guy that eats too much sauce before dishing about 84 00:05:50,535 --> 00:05:55,095 vampires in the nineties, a thing which I have direct 85 00:05:55,095 --> 00:05:57,575 personal experience about. If you wanna know more about that, 86 00:05:57,575 --> 00:05:59,575 listen to Normal Gossip. It's a ride. 87 00:05:59,815 --> 00:06:02,215 It was really great to hang out with Rachel again after our 88 00:06:02,215 --> 00:06:06,110 collab about monocultural Internet events back in her 89 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:09,870 ICYMI days. So head to wherever you get your podcasts and search 90 00:06:09,870 --> 00:06:14,030 normal gossip or check the link in the show notes. Next, we got 91 00:06:14,030 --> 00:06:17,205 T shirts. We got them. They're in our hands, and they are 92 00:06:17,205 --> 00:06:17,845 beautiful. 93 00:06:17,845 --> 00:06:20,805 They're so good. They're gonna go out right after Thanksgiving, 94 00:06:20,805 --> 00:06:24,885 so keep an eye on your mailbox. Go outside, move a chair into 95 00:06:24,885 --> 00:06:30,085 bed, maybe your refrigerator out there. Do not leave its company. 96 00:06:30,245 --> 00:06:31,525 The t shirts are coming. 97 00:06:31,525 --> 00:06:36,140 And finally, the Radiotopia fundraiser continues. Please 98 00:06:36,140 --> 00:06:40,860 visit radiotopia.fm forward slash donate to give $5.10, 99 00:06:40,860 --> 00:06:45,500 $15.50 bucks once or however often you would like to support. 100 00:06:45,500 --> 00:06:49,045 Never post along with every other show on Radiotopia who 101 00:06:49,045 --> 00:06:53,205 are, in case it was not clear up to this point, all of our pals, 102 00:06:53,605 --> 00:06:56,965 our buddies, our friends, our comrades. We love them all 103 00:06:56,965 --> 00:07:00,085 dearly. So please go to radiotopia.fmforward slash 104 00:07:00,085 --> 00:07:02,790 donate today, tomorrow, any day. 105 00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:06,230 Any amount helps us, all of our friend to shows, and this 106 00:07:06,230 --> 00:07:10,310 wonderful network that we are all a part of. Tell them, never 107 00:07:10,310 --> 00:07:14,595 post censure. Okay. That's all the news I have for you week. In 108 00:07:14,595 --> 00:07:18,755 this episode, Meagol on attention, and then Meagol again 109 00:07:18,755 --> 00:07:22,595 along with Emily and Mohammed on new Luddism. 110 00:07:22,595 --> 00:07:26,835 But first, in our interstitials this week, the sounds of 111 00:07:26,835 --> 00:07:27,315 progress, 112 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:29,700 sort of. 113 00:07:32,420 --> 00:07:36,100 Drawn from the depths of freesound.org with credit where 114 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:39,860 it is due in the show notes, Creative Commons licensed field 115 00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:45,725 recordings of an auto loom, a dot matrix printer, and a three 116 00:07:45,725 --> 00:07:48,445 d printer. Please enjoy. 117 00:09:09,225 --> 00:09:11,545 Meghal Janardan: Travel back with me to a time in the recent 118 00:09:11,545 --> 00:09:16,665 past. It's the first week of the New Year, and TikTok is about to 119 00:09:16,665 --> 00:09:22,480 be banned in The US. I'm finding this out as I scroll TikTok. 120 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,080 Content creator after influencer after small business owner is 121 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,760 freaking out about lost income. 122 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Clip: It's over, guys. This is it. 123 00:09:31,745 --> 00:09:36,945 Are they really banning fucking TikTok in fucking January? 124 00:09:37,265 --> 00:09:38,145 Alright. 125 00:09:38,145 --> 00:09:41,905 And to the US government, I'm never forgiving you for 126 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,720 Meghal Janardan: drastically this ban will affect my life. I 127 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,600 mean, I like TikTok, but it's not like I spend that much time 128 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,560 on the app. And at the very least, it will be a negative one 129 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:57,560 for big tech. I text my friends asking, how much time do y'all 130 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:00,360 spend on your phones and TikTok? My phone buzzes. 131 00:10:00,905 --> 00:10:03,785 Most of my friends spend four to five hours on their phones a day 132 00:10:03,785 --> 00:10:08,505 and max one hour on TikTok. Okay. Nice, I think. I probably 133 00:10:08,505 --> 00:10:12,585 fall in the same bracket. I open up screen time and see ten hours 134 00:10:12,585 --> 00:10:14,105 and twenty four minutes wait. 135 00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:22,970 That can't be right. Oh, maybe that is my weekly total. I look 136 00:10:22,970 --> 00:10:24,570 again. Oh, no. No. 137 00:10:24,570 --> 00:10:29,370 No. What? That is double what my friends spend on their phones. 138 00:10:29,905 --> 00:10:34,145 Oh my god. What do you mean I spent nineteen hours on TikTok 139 00:10:34,145 --> 00:10:35,265 in the past week? 140 00:10:35,585 --> 00:10:39,185 I see nineteen hours a week for messages too. My face starts to 141 00:10:39,185 --> 00:10:42,785 feel numb and a sense of dread fills my stomach. Is this okay? 142 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,160 Am I okay? What is going on between me and my phone? 143 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,000 Fast forward one week. All I can think about is my screen time. 144 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,360 Every tap, every scroll, every video, every message adds to 145 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,905 that pesky number. My phone, it's always there right next to 146 00:11:00,905 --> 00:11:03,945 me, constantly lighting up and buzzing, and I'm constantly 147 00:11:03,945 --> 00:11:06,265 picking it up. I wish it would just stop. 148 00:11:06,505 --> 00:11:09,865 Another week passes. It's Saturday night, and I'm 149 00:11:09,865 --> 00:11:13,740 scrolling through TikTok. A message pops up. Sorry. TikTok 150 00:11:13,740 --> 00:11:15,260 isn't available right now. 151 00:11:15,340 --> 00:11:18,460 Oh, the app has been removed from the Google and Apple 152 00:11:18,460 --> 00:11:23,020 stores. Has my wish come true? This is at least one less app to 153 00:11:23,020 --> 00:11:25,980 worry about affecting my screen time. I can go to bed and wake 154 00:11:25,980 --> 00:11:29,635 up without the to even scroll on TikTok. Wonderful. 155 00:11:29,635 --> 00:11:35,635 That was easy. Fourteen hours pass. TikTok is back. You have 156 00:11:35,635 --> 00:11:38,675 got to be kidding me. Not even a full day has passed. 157 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:42,460 Okay. My wish has not been granted. I guess it is up to me 158 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:48,940 to do something about how much I spend on my phone. Deep breath. 159 00:11:53,105 --> 00:11:55,825 By now, it has been two weeks since that first conversation 160 00:11:55,825 --> 00:11:56,785 with my friends. 161 00:11:57,025 --> 00:12:00,225 Texting and TikTok remain the biggest offenders, clocking in 162 00:12:00,225 --> 00:12:03,745 in a daily average of two to three hours each. I thought that 163 00:12:03,745 --> 00:12:06,385 Slack and Gmail would take up a bigger percentage, but those 164 00:12:06,385 --> 00:12:09,590 apps were at the bottom. If I really think about my habits, 165 00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:12,950 this outcome makes sense. When I wake up, I check my text and 166 00:12:12,950 --> 00:12:15,830 scroll on TikTok. When I'm between meetings, I check my 167 00:12:15,830 --> 00:12:17,430 text and scroll on TikTok. 168 00:12:17,510 --> 00:12:20,630 When I take my dog out, I check my text and scroll on TikTok. 169 00:12:20,630 --> 00:12:23,430 When I'm eating lunch, I check my text and scroll on TikTok. 170 00:12:23,845 --> 00:12:27,445 When I go to bed, I check my texts and scroll on TikTok. Even 171 00:12:27,445 --> 00:12:29,925 when I'm out with friends, I feel the need to check my phone. 172 00:12:29,925 --> 00:12:33,045 Unless I'm in a theater, it's hard to even watch movies. 173 00:12:33,365 --> 00:12:36,405 Even right now, as I examine my screen time, I desperately wanna 174 00:12:36,405 --> 00:12:41,700 check my text. I can't focus. My eyes hurt. I feel nauseous. I 175 00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:43,700 can't stop tapping and scrolling. 176 00:12:44,020 --> 00:12:48,660 Oh my god. Why am I doing this? Am I addicted to the little 177 00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:52,105 dopamine hits? Do I only feel connected when I'm constantly 178 00:12:52,105 --> 00:12:55,305 texting? Am I avoiding something not on my phone? 179 00:12:55,465 --> 00:12:59,625 Maybe I'm avoiding chores or boredom. Is scrolling doing 180 00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:04,665 something and therefore it's better than doing nothing? If I 181 00:13:04,665 --> 00:13:07,200 try to focus, it feels like trying to build a sand castle 182 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,640 with dry sand. I keep trying, but everything keeps falling 183 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,240 apart. I thought the problem was screen time, but it's deeper. 184 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:22,675 It's my attention span. I barely have one. Listeners, now begins 185 00:13:22,675 --> 00:13:25,555 the arduous journey of trying something that maybe you and 186 00:13:25,555 --> 00:13:29,635 plenty of others have attempted before. I'm going to try and fix 187 00:13:29,635 --> 00:13:32,355 my attention span. Is it even possible? 188 00:13:32,930 --> 00:13:37,810 It is, but it's tough. What follows are seven steps I took 189 00:13:37,810 --> 00:13:40,610 over the past eleven months in attempt to fix my attention 190 00:13:40,610 --> 00:13:48,485 span. Step one, observe. I'm going to spend a few days 191 00:13:48,485 --> 00:13:52,245 observing my relationship with my phone. I quickly realized I 192 00:13:52,245 --> 00:13:56,005 am not only always on my phone, I am super attached to it as a 193 00:13:56,005 --> 00:13:57,045 physical object. 194 00:13:57,365 --> 00:14:01,380 I bring it with me everywhere. If I'm working on my laptop at 195 00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:04,420 my desk, my phone is right next to my laptop. If I go to the 196 00:14:04,420 --> 00:14:07,300 bathroom, my phone is on the bathroom counter. If I'm heating 197 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:10,980 up my lunch, my phone is on my counter. For context, I live in 198 00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:12,660 a 600 square foot apartment. 199 00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:17,035 I can hear my phone just fine if it's in another room. I can't 200 00:14:17,035 --> 00:14:19,275 remember the last time I was without my phone for more than 201 00:14:19,275 --> 00:14:22,075 thirty minutes unless I accidentally left it somewhere. 202 00:14:22,075 --> 00:14:25,275 This supposedly amazing piece of technology is starting to feel 203 00:14:25,275 --> 00:14:28,900 like an invasive parasite that I allowed into my life. Now I'm 204 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,780 hyper aware of the physical weight of my phone as I carry it 205 00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:35,140 from room to room. It is like a lead shadow that I have to drag 206 00:14:35,140 --> 00:14:37,060 around behind me everywhere I go. 207 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:42,655 Step two, offload. Do I have to do everything on my phone? Maybe 208 00:14:42,655 --> 00:14:45,295 if I offload some phone tasks, I won't need to bring it 209 00:14:45,295 --> 00:14:48,415 everywhere. I'm going to do something unthinkable. I'm 210 00:14:48,415 --> 00:14:50,655 adding messaging to my personal laptop. 211 00:14:51,535 --> 00:14:53,695 I never wanted to do this because I didn't wanna be 212 00:14:53,695 --> 00:14:57,700 distracted while working. But, well, you know how that went. At 213 00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:00,020 the very least, responding on my laptop can help with the eye 214 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:03,300 strain. It sounds silly to move from one screen to another, but 215 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:06,900 it works. Typing with a full keyboard is easier and faster. 216 00:15:07,335 --> 00:15:10,135 The main problem now is that I'm constantly looking at my phone 217 00:15:10,135 --> 00:15:13,095 because of the incessant notifications, which brings me 218 00:15:13,095 --> 00:15:17,655 to the next step. Step three, reconfigure. The biggest trigger 219 00:15:17,655 --> 00:15:20,600 to picking up my phone is seeing a text notification. I 220 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,800 desperately need to reconfigure all of my notifications. Let's 221 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,520 be honest here. 222 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,920 You probably need to change yours too. If you want to follow 223 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,880 along with me, please do. I'll wait a second for you to pick up 224 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,920 your phone. Okay. Ready? 225 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,715 Open up the settings, go to message notifications, and turn 226 00:15:36,715 --> 00:15:41,435 them off. That means no vibrate, no sound, no lock screen, no 227 00:15:41,435 --> 00:15:45,355 notification center, and no banners. My phone, and hopefully 228 00:15:45,355 --> 00:15:49,115 yours too, is now a plain black box that doesn't constantly 229 00:15:49,115 --> 00:15:53,740 light up and vibrate. The new silence is off putting. It's a 230 00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:55,100 massive change to make. 231 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:58,140 It's weird not knowing when someone is communicating, but it 232 00:15:58,140 --> 00:16:01,980 is working. After a few months, I look at my phone less. I am 233 00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:05,845 less distracted and mostly text on my laptop. But get this, text 234 00:16:05,845 --> 00:16:09,365 notifications are turned off on my laptop as well. If I want to 235 00:16:09,365 --> 00:16:12,085 see who's texting me, I don't let my phone tell me when to 236 00:16:12,085 --> 00:16:12,565 look. 237 00:16:12,565 --> 00:16:16,725 I decide when to look. I decide when I respond. And most things 238 00:16:16,725 --> 00:16:20,760 can simply wait. If someone needs to reach me immediately, 239 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,800 they can call. The hours I used to spend on my phone texting 240 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,360 have moved to my laptop and reduced. 241 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,000 Step four, redirect. Let's talk about the elephant in the room 242 00:16:30,785 --> 00:16:34,145 and what started this journey in the first place. Please, one 243 00:16:34,145 --> 00:16:36,865 more. One more. TikTok. 244 00:16:37,185 --> 00:16:41,345 Yes. I can delete the app and go cold turkey or use app blockers, 245 00:16:41,345 --> 00:16:44,450 but I wanna try a few other things first. When I pick up my 246 00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:47,650 phone, I still instinctively open TikTok and scroll and 247 00:16:47,650 --> 00:16:51,570 scroll and scroll. It is muscle memory. I have no impulse 248 00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:52,130 control. 249 00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:55,170 Before I know it, my eyes are hurting and thirty minutes have 250 00:16:55,170 --> 00:16:58,745 passed in a blink. What if I choose to watch something long 251 00:16:58,745 --> 00:17:03,545 form? Instead of opening TikTok, I can open YouTube. This also 252 00:17:03,545 --> 00:17:07,145 sounds silly, replacing one form of video content for another, 253 00:17:07,225 --> 00:17:10,745 but I have to try something. I give it a shot for a few weeks. 254 00:17:10,905 --> 00:17:15,200 It barely works. Watching a YouTube video feels like too big 255 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,960 of a commitment. I don't always have twenty minutes. Now when I 256 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,400 open YouTube, I'm always playing catch up with half done videos. 257 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,680 I need something to consume for an undecided amount of time that 258 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,120 I can easily return to later. 259 00:17:27,795 --> 00:17:32,435 Step four, two point o. How about a book? I don't know if 260 00:17:32,435 --> 00:17:35,075 you know this, but books are meant to be picked up and put 261 00:17:35,075 --> 00:17:42,030 down and picked up and put down to the library I go. It's really 262 00:17:42,030 --> 00:17:44,670 exciting to pick out a book for myself. It feels so personal 263 00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:46,590 like I'm making my own algorithm. 264 00:17:46,750 --> 00:17:49,390 I'm also downloading Libby so I can have an ebook and an 265 00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:52,525 audiobook on deck. If I'm going to replace my impulse to open 266 00:17:52,525 --> 00:17:55,325 TikTok, I need all bases covered. I have something to 267 00:17:55,325 --> 00:17:58,125 pick up instead of my phone when I'm at home, something to read 268 00:17:58,125 --> 00:18:00,765 on my phone when I'm out, something to listen to when I'm 269 00:18:00,765 --> 00:18:04,605 doing chores. Every time I reach for my phone, a little voice in 270 00:18:04,605 --> 00:18:11,180 my head says, pick up a book instead. It works. 271 00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:14,460 It feels like I'm replacing a bad addiction with a good one. 272 00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:17,420 In just a few weeks, those twelve to fourteen TikTok hours 273 00:18:17,420 --> 00:18:24,275 are spent reading. In three months, I read 20 books. But 274 00:18:24,355 --> 00:18:27,875 taking up reading didn't magically solve everything. I 275 00:18:27,875 --> 00:18:31,155 have this lingering fear that I'll enter a reading law, which 276 00:18:31,155 --> 00:18:32,675 will trigger a TikTok relapse. 277 00:18:33,020 --> 00:18:35,500 Every once in a while, I'm reading a boring book and my 278 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:39,340 mind wanders. And before I know it, I'm back on TikTok. But it 279 00:18:39,340 --> 00:18:42,300 doesn't feel the same. It takes minutes before I feel nauseous. 280 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:43,580 It used to take an hour. 281 00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:47,260 So hopefully, by the time I'm in a reading lull, I won't even 282 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:52,265 have the stomach for TikTok. Step five, delete. Remember when 283 00:18:52,265 --> 00:18:57,305 I said I won't delete TikTok in step four? It is time. Okay. 284 00:18:57,305 --> 00:19:02,760 Do this with me. Is your phone nearby? Good. Hold down on that 285 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,760 little icon and tap the minus button. Did you do it? 286 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:12,200 I did it. It will be okay. It feels a bit weird, like a ghost 287 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,095 in a nap. No goodbye. No explanation. 288 00:19:15,095 --> 00:19:19,575 I just left. Like, it was a toxic situationship. TikTok felt 289 00:19:19,575 --> 00:19:22,135 like everything I used to love about the Internet until it 290 00:19:22,135 --> 00:19:25,190 didn't. A place where I could exist online without coming 291 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:28,470 across people I know, a place where I could explore and learn 292 00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:31,430 new things. But I haven't had that feeling in a while 293 00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:33,990 especially with the introduction of AI content. 294 00:19:34,150 --> 00:19:36,630 I don't wanna spend even more time trying to decipher if 295 00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:40,035 something is real or not. Plus, in the past eleven months of 296 00:19:40,035 --> 00:19:42,995 fixing my attention span, most of my friends have deleted 297 00:19:42,995 --> 00:19:46,835 TikTok too, which means fewer people to share content with. So 298 00:19:47,235 --> 00:20:10,945 goodbye. I am free. A few weeks have passed and it feels so good 299 00:20:10,945 --> 00:20:13,585 not to be sucked into the app twenty four seven. 300 00:20:13,905 --> 00:20:18,385 I don't miss it as much as I thought either. Step six, 301 00:20:18,865 --> 00:20:22,890 communicate. So far, everything I've tried appears to have been 302 00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:29,210 between me, myself, and I phone, but it hasn't been. During the 303 00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:31,690 past eleven months, I've been reaching out to people in my 304 00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:34,905 life to let them know the changes I'm making. When I reach 305 00:20:34,905 --> 00:20:36,505 out, it is a simple, hey. 306 00:20:36,505 --> 00:20:40,825 My notifications are silent. I will be slower to respond, or I 307 00:20:40,825 --> 00:20:43,545 might not see something you send me on social media because I'm 308 00:20:43,545 --> 00:20:46,745 using it less. I thought this big personal change would have a 309 00:20:46,745 --> 00:20:50,080 more drastic impact on my relationships offline. If I'm on 310 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,720 my phone less, that means I'm less connected to people in my 311 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:53,440 life. Right? 312 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,040 The opposite is happening. After reaching out, I often get 313 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,000 responses back from friends doing similar things, deleting 314 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,645 social media, scrolling less, using their phones less. When I 315 00:21:03,645 --> 00:21:07,165 started, I was worried I would feel disconnected, but I'm not 316 00:21:07,165 --> 00:21:11,165 alone in this journey. A haze has slowly lifted over the past 317 00:21:11,165 --> 00:21:14,685 few months. I am more present in my life and more present with 318 00:21:14,685 --> 00:21:15,885 the people around me. 319 00:21:16,205 --> 00:21:22,420 I didn't even know I wasn't present before. Step seven, let 320 00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:26,180 go. I've made a lot of progress, but my journey isn't done. Let's 321 00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:29,860 go back to something I observed in step one. What am I going to 322 00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:32,580 do about this black brick that is following me everywhere? 323 00:21:33,085 --> 00:21:36,125 After months, leaving my phone in another room is my biggest 324 00:21:36,125 --> 00:21:40,125 struggle. I am making some progress, but I'm still working 325 00:21:40,125 --> 00:21:43,645 on it. When I take my dog on walks, I leave my phone at home. 326 00:21:43,645 --> 00:21:46,125 When I'm out with friends, I keep my phone in my bag or 327 00:21:46,125 --> 00:21:49,210 flipped upside down so I'm not checking it. But I need to make 328 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:50,650 some changes in my home. 329 00:21:51,290 --> 00:21:54,090 I'm working on making a permanent spot for my phone in 330 00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:56,650 my apartment, essentially turning my phone into a 331 00:21:56,650 --> 00:22:00,010 landline. I'm wall mounting a box with a charging port that 332 00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:03,575 lives by my front door. I'm also removing the charging cords from 333 00:22:03,575 --> 00:22:06,535 other areas in my apartment, so I'm forced to put my phone in 334 00:22:06,535 --> 00:22:10,695 the box. The hope here is that eventually, can let go of my 335 00:22:10,695 --> 00:22:13,735 physical attachment and learn that I can leave my phone 336 00:22:13,735 --> 00:22:17,450 behind. But this change is in the beginning stages, so I'll 337 00:22:17,450 --> 00:22:18,810 have to report back later. 338 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:24,170 So where does this leave me in my attention span? Is it 339 00:22:24,170 --> 00:22:28,650 possible to fix? Short answer, yes. Long answer, it's 340 00:22:28,650 --> 00:22:32,675 complicated. After all of these changes, my attention span has 341 00:22:32,675 --> 00:22:33,715 healed a lot. 342 00:22:34,035 --> 00:22:36,995 My phone screen time now averages four to six hours a 343 00:22:36,995 --> 00:22:41,315 day, down from ten to twelve hours a day. I rarely feel 344 00:22:41,315 --> 00:22:44,510 nauseous when I'm on my phone. I'm less distractible. I have a 345 00:22:44,510 --> 00:22:48,350 higher tolerance for long form content as well. With all of my 346 00:22:48,350 --> 00:22:51,870 guardrails in place, I expect my screen time to continue to go 347 00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:54,670 down and my attention span to continue to improve. 348 00:22:55,710 --> 00:23:00,355 But it isn't a perfect system. Sometimes, my screen time spikes 349 00:23:00,355 --> 00:23:04,195 back up to eight hours a day, not including reading. And 350 00:23:04,195 --> 00:23:07,395 anything can trigger this. Back in February when my grandpa 351 00:23:07,395 --> 00:23:11,760 passed away, I was doomscrolling on TikTok to distract myself. In 352 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,440 early November when Zoran won the mayoral election, I spent 353 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,400 countless hours watching celebration videos so I could 354 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:19,920 ride that excitement out. 355 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,815 Even after all of this work, my consumption habits are still 356 00:23:23,815 --> 00:23:27,655 sensitive. I can easily be pulled back into my phone. But 357 00:23:27,655 --> 00:23:30,695 now, I have enough impulse control to pause and think about 358 00:23:30,695 --> 00:23:34,295 why I'm picking up my phone. I ask myself the same questions I 359 00:23:34,295 --> 00:23:36,870 had at the beginning of this journey. Am I avoiding 360 00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:37,430 something? 361 00:23:37,670 --> 00:23:42,070 Am I chasing excitement? Am I avoiding boredom? Maybe put that 362 00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:46,070 phone down and sit with those feelings instead. Allow yourself 363 00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:49,510 to focus. Focus on what is going on in your life. 364 00:23:50,425 --> 00:24:29,195 I guess that is step eight. Sit with your feelings. Every once 365 00:24:29,195 --> 00:24:31,595 in a while, I'll have a day where my screen time is under 366 00:24:31,595 --> 00:24:35,490 one hour, usually when I'm traveling without service. It 367 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:38,290 feels so good. I crave these days. 368 00:24:38,370 --> 00:24:41,730 Instead of craving my phone, I've started to crave my life. 369 00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:47,330 But here's the thing, I miss being on my phone a lot. Why? In 370 00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:50,315 a twisted way, even though I'm more present in my life, I have 371 00:24:50,315 --> 00:24:53,835 massive Internet FOMO. I miss the memes, knowing what sound is 372 00:24:53,835 --> 00:24:56,795 trending, being clued in on influencer drama. 373 00:24:57,035 --> 00:24:59,835 I miss the chaos and excitement of knowing I can come across 374 00:24:59,835 --> 00:25:04,350 anything, a new idea, a recipe, a cute puppy with a simple 375 00:25:04,350 --> 00:25:07,950 scroll. But ultimately, it's too much information, too much 376 00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:11,630 distraction, increasingly too much slop. I don't want my phone 377 00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:16,270 to dictate my life. I want to dictate my life. If I feel this 378 00:25:16,270 --> 00:25:19,070 way and my friends do too, I know there must be more people 379 00:25:19,070 --> 00:25:20,645 out there that feel similar. 380 00:25:22,645 --> 00:25:26,245 We are taking our attention spans back. We have got to spend 381 00:25:26,245 --> 00:27:58,240 our time on more than just apps. Deep breath. Technology has 382 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,760 become so interwoven within my life, it often feels impossible 383 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,360 to untangle. If I meet someone at a party, they ask for my 384 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:06,720 Instagram instead of my number. 385 00:28:07,165 --> 00:28:09,965 On every job application, there's a spot to link my 386 00:28:09,965 --> 00:28:13,805 LinkedIn. I need a Resy profile to make reservations. I once 387 00:28:13,805 --> 00:28:16,605 tried taking a Pilates class in my neighborhood and had to 388 00:28:16,605 --> 00:28:20,045 download a new app to book the class. A former employer even 389 00:28:20,045 --> 00:28:23,320 asked every employee to use ChatGPT to make content more 390 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,400 efficiently. Feels like these apps hijack control from me. 391 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,360 Taking my attention back helped regain some control, but how 392 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,905 else can I reassert my agency as a technology user? Are there 393 00:28:33,905 --> 00:28:37,665 people already working towards this? Recently, I learned about 394 00:28:37,665 --> 00:28:42,065 New New Luddism is based on Luddism, an uprising in England 395 00:28:42,065 --> 00:28:44,785 in the nineteenth century where factory workers were being 396 00:28:44,785 --> 00:28:48,450 displaced by automated machines. They resisted by smashing these 397 00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:51,250 machines to try to keep some amount of control over the means 398 00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:54,450 of production. Earlier this November, I had the pleasure of 399 00:28:54,450 --> 00:28:57,330 attending the conference, New Luddism, Technology and 400 00:28:57,330 --> 00:29:00,290 Resistance in the Modern Workplace, organized by Emily 401 00:29:00,290 --> 00:29:01,650 Mazo and Muhammad Ali. 402 00:29:02,115 --> 00:29:04,915 I am so lucky that the organizers of that conference 403 00:29:04,915 --> 00:29:07,315 made themselves almost immediately available to talk 404 00:29:07,315 --> 00:29:11,155 with me about it afterwards. I wanted to talk to them about 405 00:29:11,155 --> 00:29:14,115 what is happening in the new ledism movement and the ways 406 00:29:14,115 --> 00:29:22,930 people are resisting certain technologies. Emily Maza, 407 00:29:22,930 --> 00:29:26,130 welcome. Thanks so much for having us. Muhammad Ali, 408 00:29:26,130 --> 00:29:26,770 welcome. 409 00:29:26,850 --> 00:29:28,050 Mohamed Ali: Thank you for having us. 410 00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:30,690 Meghal Janardan: Emily, you are a former software engineer and 411 00:29:30,690 --> 00:29:34,515 now sociology PhD student at Columbia University, where you 412 00:29:34,515 --> 00:29:38,195 study work and labor organizing in the tech industry. You are 413 00:29:38,195 --> 00:29:41,315 also a member of Collective Action Tech, which creates 414 00:29:41,315 --> 00:29:44,435 resources for tech workers who want to organize their 415 00:29:44,435 --> 00:29:49,300 workplace. Can you help us understand what is new Luddism 416 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:50,340 reacting to? 417 00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:55,540 Emily Mazo: Yeah. I think that the the main thread through all 418 00:29:55,540 --> 00:29:59,915 of the different groups of people, researchers, activists, 419 00:29:59,995 --> 00:30:02,155 all the different maybe movements that are taking up the 420 00:30:02,155 --> 00:30:05,275 mantle of the Luddites today is the same one of the original 421 00:30:05,275 --> 00:30:07,995 Luddites, and it's about control. It's not about whether 422 00:30:07,995 --> 00:30:10,475 or not technology is good or bad. It's not about whether or 423 00:30:10,475 --> 00:30:13,990 not you understand technology. It's about whether or not you 424 00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:18,070 have control over the technology that is getting used on you, the 425 00:30:18,070 --> 00:30:21,430 technology that you're getting asked to use, and the ways in 426 00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:24,150 which, like, society is changing around you, your working 427 00:30:24,150 --> 00:30:26,630 conditions are changing, your living conditions are changing 428 00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:31,465 as a result of other people using that technology on you or 429 00:30:31,465 --> 00:30:34,425 around you or developing specific technologies and not 430 00:30:34,425 --> 00:30:35,785 developing other ones. 431 00:30:36,105 --> 00:30:38,025 And it's about whether or not you have a say. 432 00:30:38,345 --> 00:30:40,825 Meghal Janardan: Okay. Mohammed, you are a JD candidate at 433 00:30:40,825 --> 00:30:43,540 Columbia Law School and former Google product manager who 434 00:30:43,540 --> 00:30:46,660 studies the intersection of antitrust administrative law and 435 00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:50,580 technology. And you are a member of the law and political economy 436 00:30:50,580 --> 00:30:53,460 project, which examines how legal rules distribute power 437 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:57,265 across markets and institutions and a research associate at the 438 00:30:57,265 --> 00:31:02,545 AI Now Institute. So for you, what does New Luddism want to 439 00:31:02,545 --> 00:31:05,345 achieve, specifically when looking at, like, the means of 440 00:31:05,345 --> 00:31:05,985 production? 441 00:31:06,705 --> 00:31:09,745 Mohamed Ali: So as Luddites, we wanna have a deep and formidable 442 00:31:09,745 --> 00:31:13,830 understanding of what the material, political, social 443 00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:17,110 context of scientific and technological innovation is, and 444 00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:21,590 how we as the public, and we the society, we the citizenry, we 445 00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:26,375 the interested human beings, can take a role in guiding the 446 00:31:26,375 --> 00:31:28,295 vision for technological progress in the future. Because 447 00:31:28,295 --> 00:31:31,335 if we don't, somebody else will. And that somebody else may not 448 00:31:31,335 --> 00:31:33,895 necessarily have our best interests in mind. And I think 449 00:31:33,895 --> 00:31:37,175 we're seeing that now today with a wide variety of technologies 450 00:31:37,175 --> 00:31:39,830 being deployed in the marketplace that can only be 451 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:43,590 called SLOP. And that is not, you know, and that is not 452 00:31:43,670 --> 00:31:44,550 inevitable. 453 00:31:45,030 --> 00:31:48,550 We're seizing the mantle of the word light and reclaiming it. 454 00:31:48,550 --> 00:31:49,910 Meghal Janardan: Yeah. That's really interesting. It's 455 00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:52,150 something that I was, like, thinking about when I was at the 456 00:31:52,150 --> 00:31:55,635 conference and, you know, doing a little bit research for this 457 00:31:55,635 --> 00:32:00,035 interview is the role of consent in the way that technology is in 458 00:32:00,035 --> 00:32:03,635 our lives. And Buddhism makes you question that, like, did did 459 00:32:03,635 --> 00:32:07,555 I opt into all of this? Can I opt out? 460 00:32:07,635 --> 00:32:11,500 How? And what does that mean for, like, say, me as an 461 00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:16,700 individual? Do you see Luddism as anti technology? And if it is 462 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:20,060 anti something, what specifically is it anti? 463 00:32:21,085 --> 00:32:24,445 Mohamed Ali: Luddism is not anti technology and it is really an 464 00:32:24,445 --> 00:32:27,485 outrageous claim when people accuse Luddites of being anti 465 00:32:27,485 --> 00:32:31,805 technology. What Luddites are interested in is like Emily just 466 00:32:31,805 --> 00:32:35,950 said very well, power. Who has the power to decide what 467 00:32:35,950 --> 00:32:40,110 technologies are used and how, and how they develop and where, 468 00:32:40,110 --> 00:32:43,150 and when they're deployed and why. Maybe it'll be useful to 469 00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:46,510 illustrate a material example. Did you know the camera was 470 00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:47,630 racist until very recently? 471 00:32:48,005 --> 00:32:50,085 Meghal Janardan: I guess how it precedes light. Yes. 472 00:32:50,085 --> 00:32:52,885 Mohamed Ali: Well, yes. Yeah. Since almost since the days of 473 00:32:52,885 --> 00:32:55,685 like the Lumiere brothers, the colors against which the light 474 00:32:55,685 --> 00:32:58,485 was calibrated was, you know, the primary colors, and then 475 00:32:58,485 --> 00:33:02,230 guess what? The tones of white people. And that's why when you 476 00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:04,550 take a picture next to a white person, you know you know, if I 477 00:33:04,550 --> 00:33:07,350 were to a picture next to Emily, either I would look really dark 478 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:09,750 and then she looked great, or she looked like she's about to 479 00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:11,910 ascend to heaven and I would look great. 480 00:33:11,910 --> 00:33:16,425 Yes. And that is not just the inevitable result of technology. 481 00:33:16,425 --> 00:33:19,145 And when I criticize that, it's not because I'm anti technology. 482 00:33:19,225 --> 00:33:22,345 It's because certain specific hardware decisions were made 483 00:33:22,425 --> 00:33:26,425 that led to this failure for us. And, you know, this leads to a a 484 00:33:26,425 --> 00:33:27,065 social reality. 485 00:33:27,380 --> 00:33:29,300 Maybe I'm less likely to wanna take a picture with Emily 486 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:31,460 because I don't think I'm gonna look good in one of that. And 487 00:33:31,460 --> 00:33:34,020 imagine that that that little feeling that I have, how it adds 488 00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:37,140 up when it multiplies across a society. And this shows where 489 00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:39,620 the power is. That didn't change because some people had a moral 490 00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:43,825 crusade, actually. It changed because other companies, 491 00:33:43,825 --> 00:33:47,345 specifically furniture companies and chocolate manufacturers, 492 00:33:47,425 --> 00:33:49,345 were complaining that they couldn't capture dark furniture 493 00:33:49,345 --> 00:33:51,265 or dark chocolate well with the cameras. 494 00:33:51,905 --> 00:33:56,465 And so two, you know, corporate bigwigs are fighting over our 495 00:33:56,465 --> 00:33:59,570 technological future. What about me wanting to able to take a 496 00:33:59,570 --> 00:34:01,410 picture with my white friends, you know, or me wanting to take 497 00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:03,010 a picture with my white neighbors? I mean, that's like 498 00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:04,530 Yeah. I think a lot more important than, you know, your 499 00:34:04,530 --> 00:34:06,930 rendering of a dark chocolate, you know, on a a on a on a 500 00:34:06,930 --> 00:34:10,770 screen. But what we want to do is based on that understanding, 501 00:34:11,410 --> 00:34:15,945 look at what are the ways in which the worker, the public, or 502 00:34:15,945 --> 00:34:16,905 anybody, really. 503 00:34:16,905 --> 00:34:21,065 What are the ways in which power manifests in the way a 504 00:34:21,065 --> 00:34:24,345 technology develops and the way it proliferates and the way we 505 00:34:24,345 --> 00:34:25,305 interact with it. 506 00:34:25,385 --> 00:34:30,870 Meghal Janardan: So what would control look like in this 507 00:34:30,870 --> 00:34:33,430 situation or I guess a better future? 508 00:34:33,830 --> 00:34:37,830 Emily Mazo: A lot of the battle for control over what technology 509 00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:41,985 gets built, who gets to use it, who it gets used on starts in 510 00:34:41,985 --> 00:34:47,025 the workplace. There's also sort of a lack of a history over the 511 00:34:47,025 --> 00:34:50,385 last few decades in The United States of organized labor, like 512 00:34:50,385 --> 00:34:55,265 unions organizing for control over what gets built. And I 513 00:34:55,265 --> 00:35:00,140 think that that shift back to sort of democratic control over 514 00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:03,820 what gets designed, what projects get planned, how they 515 00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:07,020 get implemented, and those decisions being in the hands of 516 00:35:07,020 --> 00:35:11,740 the people who are actually building things, marketing them, 517 00:35:12,425 --> 00:35:17,625 figuring out what gets out to consumers, what contracts get 518 00:35:17,625 --> 00:35:22,105 signed with vendors, other companies, other governments, 519 00:35:22,345 --> 00:35:27,360 other powerful powerful groups. Having these decisions in the 520 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,120 hands of the people doing the work is one of the ways that 521 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,800 that control sort of gets back into the hands of people that 522 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,080 this technology is going like, all technologies are going to be 523 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,745 used against. There are a lot of different workplaces where 524 00:35:42,745 --> 00:35:44,505 technology creation happens. 525 00:35:44,505 --> 00:35:48,265 There's a whole supply chain of workplaces that goes into the 526 00:35:48,265 --> 00:35:53,690 building of things like ChatGPT or surveillance cameras or your 527 00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:58,570 social media feed. And that supply chain starts probably not 528 00:35:58,570 --> 00:36:01,290 in The United States. That supply chain starts in places 529 00:36:01,290 --> 00:36:05,865 like Mines for Rare Earth Minerals. It happens in remote 530 00:36:06,185 --> 00:36:09,385 workplaces of data workers who are labeling data that then 531 00:36:09,385 --> 00:36:13,545 becomes part of machine learning models. It happens in, like, big 532 00:36:13,545 --> 00:36:16,025 fancy office buildings of professional tech workers in The 533 00:36:16,025 --> 00:36:16,665 US as well. 534 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,920 And the fight for control over what technology gets built, who 535 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,360 gets to use it, who it gets used on, it's happening in all of 536 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,600 those workplaces. And all of that organizing, if it comes 537 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,415 together, it could be really, really powerful. 538 00:36:31,415 --> 00:36:32,615 Meghal Janardan: Yeah. Definitely. And I think 539 00:36:32,615 --> 00:36:35,095 something that kind of surprised me when I attended the 540 00:36:35,095 --> 00:36:39,655 conference, was like, oh, a lot of what's being talked about is 541 00:36:39,655 --> 00:36:42,455 a lot of stuff that I already want and I'm hoping for 542 00:36:42,455 --> 00:36:46,130 personally and I'm trying to do. This entire year, I've been 543 00:36:46,130 --> 00:36:50,850 trying to fix my attention span. What approaches are people doing 544 00:36:51,010 --> 00:36:54,050 to resist the tech in the workforce? 545 00:36:54,210 --> 00:36:58,315 Emily Mazo: There are very few wall to wall or, like, majority 546 00:36:58,315 --> 00:37:02,475 unions in tech workplaces in The United States, but the few that 547 00:37:02,475 --> 00:37:06,955 do already exist either have or are thinking about bargaining an 548 00:37:06,955 --> 00:37:10,490 AI clause into their contract. And those are also getting 549 00:37:10,490 --> 00:37:12,730 written into contracts in the tech industry. Kickstarter 550 00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:18,490 United just yesterday concluded a six week strike over their 551 00:37:18,490 --> 00:37:21,690 second contract and incredibly proud of everything that they've 552 00:37:21,690 --> 00:37:23,945 won. And one of the things that's in their new contract is 553 00:37:23,945 --> 00:37:28,745 an AI clause saying no workers here can be replaced by LLMs. 554 00:37:29,065 --> 00:37:32,505 But because there aren't that many, like, NLRB recognized 555 00:37:32,505 --> 00:37:35,785 unions in the tech industry yet, we're seeing a lot of, like, out 556 00:37:35,785 --> 00:37:39,500 of contract, out of like technical public union 557 00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:41,100 organizing around these things. 558 00:37:41,180 --> 00:37:43,820 And the same way, anybody can do a collective action. You don't 559 00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:46,460 have to be in a union that your boss calls a union in order to 560 00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:51,215 do it. Amazon Employees for Climate Justice, AUCJ, made 561 00:37:51,215 --> 00:37:54,735 public an open letter that they've been organizing of 562 00:37:54,735 --> 00:37:57,855 office workers at Amazon, just connecting like the 563 00:37:57,855 --> 00:38:01,775 environmental, the labor, and like surveillance issues of this 564 00:38:01,775 --> 00:38:04,895 technology with their everyday working conditions, their day to 565 00:38:04,895 --> 00:38:08,460 day tasks at work, and how their labor process is changing with 566 00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:09,820 the introduction of LLMs. 567 00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:12,060 Meghal Janardan: Do you find that, you know, we already have 568 00:38:12,380 --> 00:38:15,980 labor movements in The US. And like you mentioned, unions 569 00:38:15,980 --> 00:38:20,620 amongst tech workers are not as as common. Do you think that 570 00:38:20,885 --> 00:38:25,525 this new Luddism movement has is helping kind of unite maybe kind 571 00:38:25,525 --> 00:38:30,885 of disparate forces together into one more collective action? 572 00:38:31,045 --> 00:38:35,160 Emily Mazo: I hope so. And I think that we will. Office based 573 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,960 sort of professional tech workers, what I have in mind is 574 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,680 like software engineers, data scientists, designers, product 575 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,840 managers, and also like content moderators, call center workers, 576 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,015 data workers, data labelers. These are like professional 577 00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:53,175 workers amongst whom there isn't that much of a history of union 578 00:38:53,175 --> 00:38:55,895 organizing and collective action, at least in the last 579 00:38:55,895 --> 00:39:00,455 couple of decades. But these are, you know, highly skilled 580 00:39:00,455 --> 00:39:02,295 workers with specialized expertise. 581 00:39:02,590 --> 00:39:05,950 And they know how to do their jobs and getting sort of 582 00:39:05,950 --> 00:39:09,470 commands at work to use tools that they don't think are the 583 00:39:09,470 --> 00:39:12,270 right fit to solve the technical problems that are in front of 584 00:39:12,270 --> 00:39:18,035 them Mhmm. Is I think a really relatable issue at work for a 585 00:39:18,035 --> 00:39:22,035 lot of people. And I think we're going to see a lot more sort of 586 00:39:22,035 --> 00:39:25,795 coming together across job titles, workplaces, different 587 00:39:25,795 --> 00:39:29,610 parts of the industry around something that is affecting so 588 00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:32,730 many people. Not necessarily because it will make people more 589 00:39:32,730 --> 00:39:36,970 productive, but I think historically, what labor 590 00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:39,690 scholars and labor historians have seen is that automation 591 00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:43,530 technology is frequently developed and introduced at 592 00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:48,345 times when the people that run companies want to control their 593 00:39:48,345 --> 00:39:51,705 workforce more. When they want to discipline labor. 594 00:39:51,705 --> 00:39:55,305 When they want to make workers easier to control. And they want 595 00:39:55,305 --> 00:39:59,710 to make production a little bit more predictable, let's say. And 596 00:39:59,710 --> 00:40:02,350 I think what we've been seeing over the past few years, I mean, 597 00:40:02,350 --> 00:40:07,230 the big union wave in media, the really militant strike of 598 00:40:07,230 --> 00:40:12,590 culture workers in WGA and SAG in 2023, the surge of labor 599 00:40:12,590 --> 00:40:15,645 organizing amongst professional tech workers in The US from like 600 00:40:15,645 --> 00:40:19,885 2019 to 2022. This is a population of workers that I 601 00:40:19,885 --> 00:40:23,405 think a lot of bosses wanna discipline. And I do not think 602 00:40:23,405 --> 00:40:26,845 that it is a coincidence that a lot of these automation 603 00:40:26,845 --> 00:40:29,005 technologies that are being introduced into the workplace 604 00:40:29,005 --> 00:40:32,820 and pushed this hard, invested in this much right now. 605 00:40:32,980 --> 00:40:35,460 Mohammed, to go back to what you were saying about possible 606 00:40:35,460 --> 00:40:38,420 branching paths and which ones get pruned and which ones get 607 00:40:38,420 --> 00:40:39,060 watered. 608 00:40:39,060 --> 00:40:43,140 Meghal Janardan: Do you find that there is also room for new 609 00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:46,875 to nuletism for people who are not, like, in tech? 610 00:40:46,875 --> 00:40:49,115 Mohamed Ali: Almost everybody's a tech worker now in one way or 611 00:40:49,115 --> 00:40:51,195 another. I'll give you an example. We were talking about 612 00:40:51,195 --> 00:40:55,195 consent earlier. You ever forget your password? I'm sure you've 613 00:40:55,195 --> 00:40:55,995 done that before. 614 00:40:55,995 --> 00:40:58,235 Right? And you know those captchas that you have to do and 615 00:40:58,235 --> 00:41:00,650 they're like, oh, show me what's a traffic's point the traffic 616 00:41:00,650 --> 00:41:03,450 cone or point at the street crosswalk. Have you ever 617 00:41:03,450 --> 00:41:06,410 wondered why all the questions they ask you are about road 618 00:41:06,410 --> 00:41:09,210 stuff? Yes. Okay. 619 00:41:09,210 --> 00:41:13,290 The reason that that is is because you are training self 620 00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:16,375 driving cars. Every time you forget your password, you're 621 00:41:16,375 --> 00:41:18,935 training a self driving car. Did you ever consent to do that work 622 00:41:18,935 --> 00:41:23,095 for Google for free? Hell no. But at a minimum, at least from 623 00:41:23,095 --> 00:41:26,295 a social perspective, we didn't agree to be tech workers. 624 00:41:26,455 --> 00:41:29,335 Everybody is in one way or another a tech worker, whether 625 00:41:29,335 --> 00:41:32,610 they like it or not. Who has the power? Who has the power to 626 00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:36,850 control the technologies, their development, their application, 627 00:41:36,850 --> 00:41:39,970 their proliferation, even just how they look and where they end 628 00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:44,545 up. And right now, it's not us. Is there a place in Lenisim for 629 00:41:44,545 --> 00:41:45,985 people who don't work in tech? 630 00:41:46,225 --> 00:41:49,585 Of course. But more importantly, everybody, especially if you're 631 00:41:49,585 --> 00:41:52,625 listening to this podcast, works in tech one way or another. 632 00:41:52,865 --> 00:41:55,265 Meghal Janardan: Yeah. That no. That makes sense. Exactly. It's 633 00:41:55,265 --> 00:41:57,960 it's very similar to what I was saying earlier about, you know, 634 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,720 like fixing my attention span. 635 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,960 By what you're saying, me being on social media, even though I'm 636 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,640 just watching videos is a way I'm working in tech. 637 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:08,520 Mohamed Ali: Oh, yes. All 638 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,840 Meghal Janardan: the data is going to something and it's 639 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,995 being trained for something else, whether it's even just to 640 00:42:13,995 --> 00:42:17,835 see what is gonna be next on my algorithm. You know, even when 641 00:42:17,835 --> 00:42:21,115 I'm like trying to be off my phone, I'm gonna go to a 642 00:42:21,115 --> 00:42:23,515 restaurant and suddenly I come home and I'm on their email 643 00:42:23,515 --> 00:42:28,730 list. I'm like, how how did that happen? It sounds like it's just 644 00:42:28,730 --> 00:42:33,690 like there are so many ways that, you know, technologies in 645 00:42:33,690 --> 00:42:36,810 our lives. And if you look, you know, at like in the new lives 646 00:42:36,810 --> 00:42:41,585 of movement, it really does help one question what exactly is 647 00:42:41,585 --> 00:42:45,665 going on and how, you know, you as an individual, your data is 648 00:42:45,665 --> 00:42:47,265 just being used constantly. 649 00:42:47,665 --> 00:42:51,265 Emily Mazo: Yep. Yep. And it is possible to create prosocial 650 00:42:51,265 --> 00:42:55,450 technology. Right? It's just that the people that, you know, 651 00:42:56,170 --> 00:43:00,090 have the resources to do technological development, don't 652 00:43:00,090 --> 00:43:01,850 have an incentive to do that. 653 00:43:01,930 --> 00:43:06,145 And Right. There's a a big discussion to be had, all of us 654 00:43:06,145 --> 00:43:08,865 together about what we want technology to look like in the 655 00:43:08,865 --> 00:43:11,905 future. What does prosocial technology look like? What does 656 00:43:11,905 --> 00:43:15,745 technology created by workers for workers look like? By like 657 00:43:15,745 --> 00:43:20,350 everyday people, how do we want our society to look at what kind 658 00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:23,310 of technology do we wanna build to help us get there? 659 00:43:23,870 --> 00:43:27,550 But if we had the power right now to decide what technology 660 00:43:27,550 --> 00:43:30,590 gets built, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Right? 661 00:43:30,590 --> 00:43:33,815 So before maybe before we're alongside the conversation about 662 00:43:33,815 --> 00:43:36,775 what kind of technology we do want, we need to be having the 663 00:43:36,775 --> 00:43:39,495 conversation that Mohammad's talking about. How do we build 664 00:43:39,495 --> 00:43:42,295 the power so that we get to the point where we are the people 665 00:43:42,295 --> 00:43:44,780 who get to make those decisions? That makes sense. 666 00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:47,340 Mohamed Ali: And I I just wanted to add one thing to that, is 667 00:43:47,660 --> 00:43:50,220 that it's not like we're just asking for unearned or 668 00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:54,460 undeserved power. All these tech companies that, you know, make 669 00:43:54,460 --> 00:43:57,100 trillions of dollars, make trillions of dollars off the 670 00:43:57,100 --> 00:44:00,785 backs of, obviously, the labor of the tech workers, both the 671 00:44:00,785 --> 00:44:03,025 employed tech workers, and as we mentioned earlier, the 672 00:44:03,025 --> 00:44:06,465 unemployed tech workers. But more more importantly, they 673 00:44:06,465 --> 00:44:09,825 receive billions of dollars of public money, of our tax 674 00:44:09,825 --> 00:44:13,345 dollars. Look, we are subsidizing these institutions 675 00:44:13,345 --> 00:44:16,750 all the way back to the roads that they they use to get to the 676 00:44:16,750 --> 00:44:19,310 office, all the way back to the energy, the electricity that 677 00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:22,430 they that they that they they use, you know, public works, 678 00:44:22,510 --> 00:44:26,430 water, electricity, power, the education system that trains 679 00:44:26,430 --> 00:44:28,830 their workers, that disciplines their workers, that educates 680 00:44:28,830 --> 00:44:33,375 their management. We, the society and the polity, are the 681 00:44:33,375 --> 00:44:35,855 reason they exist in the first place, and then we're gonna be 682 00:44:35,855 --> 00:44:37,935 like, oh, go do whatever you want with it. 683 00:44:38,095 --> 00:44:40,895 If certain people can succeed, we can't let them pull the 684 00:44:40,895 --> 00:44:43,535 ladder right up from under them and say, oh, I did this by 685 00:44:43,535 --> 00:44:47,050 myself. No, you didn't. Okay, we all played a role, and now we'd 686 00:44:47,050 --> 00:44:53,050 like to enjoy having your success be diffused for the rest 687 00:44:53,050 --> 00:44:57,770 of us, who played, you know, who continue, you know, to uphold 688 00:44:58,695 --> 00:45:01,575 all of scientific progress in the planet today. 689 00:45:02,215 --> 00:45:06,135 Meghal Janardan: Do you see that there is a need like, have 690 00:45:06,135 --> 00:45:08,615 everyone coming together. Right? Everyone's interested in this 691 00:45:08,615 --> 00:45:11,335 movement. Looking at historically where elitism 692 00:45:11,335 --> 00:45:15,990 started, where we have people intentionally smashing 693 00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:19,430 technology as a form of resistance very for very 694 00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:23,990 specific reasons, not just because. And looking at where we 695 00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:27,855 are at now, do you find that there is a need to escalate the 696 00:45:27,855 --> 00:45:31,775 movement or the actions of people to something that is very 697 00:45:31,775 --> 00:45:34,815 similar to that or like equivalent to say smashing the 698 00:45:34,815 --> 00:45:35,455 machines? 699 00:45:36,015 --> 00:45:39,215 Emily Mazo: I will say large swaths of the conference were 700 00:45:39,215 --> 00:45:43,930 off of the record so that this conversation can be had in a 701 00:45:43,930 --> 00:45:48,170 safe and secure way. I think that this is a question on the 702 00:45:48,170 --> 00:45:50,890 tip of a lot of people's tongue. Right? How do we talk about 703 00:45:50,890 --> 00:45:54,330 sabotage? What different types of sabotage are there? 704 00:45:54,410 --> 00:45:59,275 There's property destruction. There's also Mhmm. As Jatin 705 00:45:59,275 --> 00:46:01,515 Sadowski, who is one of the speakers of the conference 706 00:46:01,515 --> 00:46:08,155 brought up the history of the idea of sabotage in the American 707 00:46:08,155 --> 00:46:12,250 labor movement goes back to, you know, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn 708 00:46:12,250 --> 00:46:15,050 writing about it for a pamphlet for the IWW talking about 709 00:46:15,050 --> 00:46:18,410 sabotages, the withdrawal of efficiency. There's lots of ways 710 00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:21,850 to withdraw efficiency. One of those ways is all the tools that 711 00:46:21,850 --> 00:46:25,355 are already in sort of the labor movement toolbox of strikes and 712 00:46:25,355 --> 00:46:28,955 slowdowns, walkouts, work to rule. 713 00:46:29,835 --> 00:46:33,595 There are other ways to withdraw efficiency like, well, I don't 714 00:46:33,595 --> 00:46:36,315 know if you'd put consumer boycotts or other kinds of 715 00:46:36,315 --> 00:46:40,090 consumer protest on that list technically, but there are lots 716 00:46:40,090 --> 00:46:45,210 of ways to protest and put your maybe your hammer where your 717 00:46:45,210 --> 00:46:48,970 mouth is, that are not property destruction. But I think that 718 00:46:48,970 --> 00:46:51,690 there is I mean, if you look around online, there are a lot 719 00:46:51,690 --> 00:46:54,090 of people making jokes about taking hammers to data centers. 720 00:46:55,905 --> 00:47:00,785 I am not personally an expert on how to break a data center, but 721 00:47:00,785 --> 00:47:04,705 I think there are a lot of people that are taking up the 722 00:47:04,705 --> 00:47:07,745 history of the Luddites as inspiration that are having this 723 00:47:07,745 --> 00:47:08,145 conversation. 724 00:47:09,210 --> 00:47:11,530 Mohamed Ali: Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of forms of of 725 00:47:11,850 --> 00:47:14,970 sabotage which aren't going to fall in under property damage. 726 00:47:14,970 --> 00:47:16,810 And, you know, there and, you know, just to point out a few, 727 00:47:16,810 --> 00:47:19,850 you know, there's like sabotage as refusal. So we can refuse to 728 00:47:19,850 --> 00:47:22,970 use a harmful technology from the consumer side, refuse to use 729 00:47:22,970 --> 00:47:25,965 biometric surveillance tools, students can refuse to install 730 00:47:25,965 --> 00:47:29,005 proctoring spyware and get together at the university and 731 00:47:29,005 --> 00:47:31,725 say we're not going to live in a world where we have to install 732 00:47:31,725 --> 00:47:33,965 spyware on my computer to take a damn exam. 733 00:47:34,205 --> 00:47:37,005 There's also sabotage collective action, which is what we talked 734 00:47:37,005 --> 00:47:39,005 about, you know, of what we talked about at the at the 735 00:47:39,005 --> 00:47:41,740 conference. Workers demanding limits on algorithmic 736 00:47:41,740 --> 00:47:44,540 management. Unions may be requiring human oversight over 737 00:47:44,540 --> 00:47:47,980 AI decision making, or, you know, strikes, collective 738 00:47:47,980 --> 00:47:51,100 bargaining against unsafe automation or surveillance. 739 00:47:51,340 --> 00:47:54,205 There's also, from the legal perspective, sabotage as 740 00:47:54,205 --> 00:47:57,965 regulation. We lawyers can take an active role on banning things 741 00:47:57,965 --> 00:48:01,485 like predictive policing or facial recognition, or creating 742 00:48:01,485 --> 00:48:04,045 platform transparency laws or algorithmic accountability 743 00:48:04,045 --> 00:48:04,925 requirements. 744 00:48:05,165 --> 00:48:07,900 There's also culture jamming, which can count as a type of 745 00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:09,980 sabotage, you know, public campaigns, that's what students 746 00:48:09,980 --> 00:48:11,900 are doing at the university, at Columbia, and all over the 747 00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,180 country, where they're putting out posters and art, satire, 748 00:48:15,180 --> 00:48:18,220 zines, memes, art, and installations that describe, you 749 00:48:18,220 --> 00:48:21,900 know, the dangers of exploitative exploitative AI 750 00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:24,915 practices. There's constructive sabotage. Instead of just 751 00:48:24,915 --> 00:48:26,755 resisting the harmful technologies, what if we create 752 00:48:26,755 --> 00:48:29,235 better alternatives? There's a long history of the free 753 00:48:29,235 --> 00:48:33,555 software movement that builds technologies that are copy left 754 00:48:33,555 --> 00:48:38,340 instead of copyright. And so by building, you know, constructive 755 00:48:38,340 --> 00:48:42,260 alternatives, and look at look at the look at Blue Sky and and 756 00:48:42,260 --> 00:48:46,660 Mastodon, you know, that are alternatives to to Elon Musk 757 00:48:46,660 --> 00:48:48,020 backed Twitter. 758 00:48:48,775 --> 00:48:51,575 And finally, they're sabotaged, you know, as transparency and 759 00:48:51,575 --> 00:48:53,415 whistleblowing. Here's where the journalists come in. 760 00:48:53,415 --> 00:48:56,775 Investigative journalism unveiling as they did recently, 761 00:48:56,855 --> 00:49:00,455 how many judges around America were using so called AI 762 00:49:00,455 --> 00:49:03,910 technology to decide who deserves parole, which attacks 763 00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:06,550 the very heart of the criminal justice system. Research 764 00:49:06,550 --> 00:49:09,510 uncovering algorithmic harm, the waymos were found to be more 765 00:49:09,510 --> 00:49:11,670 likely to run over black people than white people. That's a big 766 00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:12,230 story. 767 00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:15,135 Didn't really make as much of a splash as I wished it would, but 768 00:49:15,135 --> 00:49:17,455 hopefully, you know, more research will come out that'll 769 00:49:17,455 --> 00:49:20,735 expose the how common algorithms like that can actually create a 770 00:49:20,735 --> 00:49:23,215 lot of harm, and other sorts of audits and whistleblowing 771 00:49:23,215 --> 00:49:26,255 activity. So sabotage is not just taking a hammer to a 772 00:49:26,255 --> 00:49:28,750 machine and doing property damage, but there are so many 773 00:49:28,750 --> 00:49:31,550 things we can do, whether it's withholding our labor, whether 774 00:49:31,550 --> 00:49:35,790 it's withholding our our our consumption of goods, whether 775 00:49:35,790 --> 00:49:39,870 it's using our specific skills as lawyers to regulate, as 776 00:49:39,870 --> 00:49:44,955 journalists to whistleblow, as engineers to build alternatives, 777 00:49:45,115 --> 00:49:48,235 and as artists and generally interested people to jam the 778 00:49:48,235 --> 00:49:51,115 culture against a specific vision for technological 779 00:49:51,115 --> 00:49:54,395 progress that seeks to exploit people instead of uplift them. 780 00:49:54,510 --> 00:49:56,190 Meghal Janardan: Oh, yeah. That's amazing. There's like a 781 00:49:56,190 --> 00:49:59,310 lot of different ways to go about this. I mean, and you 782 00:49:59,310 --> 00:50:02,030 brought up Blue Sky and Mastodon, like, something that 783 00:50:02,030 --> 00:50:04,830 I've been thinking about, you know, if I'm gonna really get 784 00:50:04,830 --> 00:50:08,830 off Instagram and but I still want to be on the Internet, 785 00:50:09,275 --> 00:50:12,395 Should I start my own blog where I self host it, you know, where 786 00:50:12,395 --> 00:50:15,915 I own the data? And that can be like an alternative to even 787 00:50:15,915 --> 00:50:19,515 being on something like Substack and seeing like different ways 788 00:50:19,515 --> 00:50:20,555 to resist. 789 00:50:20,715 --> 00:50:24,100 Looking forward, you know, we have the conference that you 790 00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:27,780 both helped organize, which did which was amazing and we saw a 791 00:50:27,780 --> 00:50:31,460 lot of people come together and attend it. Is New Leadism a 792 00:50:31,460 --> 00:50:32,100 movement? 793 00:50:32,580 --> 00:50:34,980 Mohamed Ali: I would respond that yes. 794 00:50:35,695 --> 00:50:40,655 Emily Mazo: I agree. I think that it's if not a a movement 795 00:50:40,655 --> 00:50:43,775 with a membership, it is an analysis in a way of thinking 796 00:50:43,775 --> 00:50:47,455 about the world, in a way a way of thinking about power that we 797 00:50:47,455 --> 00:50:52,410 are seeing grow in a lot of different areas right now. And 798 00:50:52,410 --> 00:50:55,530 there's a, certainly in this country, a resurgence of an 799 00:50:55,530 --> 00:50:59,210 understanding of what power is and how to wield it and an 800 00:50:59,210 --> 00:51:02,250 increase in people taking collective action together, both 801 00:51:01,875 --> 00:51:04,115 in the workplace and in the streets. And sometimes that's 802 00:51:04,115 --> 00:51:07,395 around technology and sometimes it's around other things that 803 00:51:07,395 --> 00:51:12,755 help other people exert power and control over us. And this 804 00:51:12,755 --> 00:51:15,635 analysis is being picked up more and more this way of looking at 805 00:51:15,635 --> 00:51:19,210 the world and looking at power, I think it is going to bring 806 00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:20,250 some really great things. 807 00:51:36,385 --> 00:51:38,705 Meghal Janardan: Thank you so much, Emily Mazo and Muhammad 808 00:51:38,705 --> 00:51:41,665 Ali for taking the time to talk with me. If you're new to new 809 00:51:41,665 --> 00:51:44,385 Luddism like I am, Emily and Muhammad gave us a bunch of 810 00:51:44,385 --> 00:51:47,265 resources for people to follow and things to look at to learn 811 00:51:47,265 --> 00:51:50,670 more. After speaking with Emilene Mohammed, I'm 812 00:51:50,670 --> 00:51:53,310 questioning even more how technology has affected my life 813 00:51:53,310 --> 00:51:56,830 beyond my attention span. It's overwhelming. But I think New 814 00:51:56,830 --> 00:51:59,870 Luddism has the frameworks and tools to take that overwhelm and 815 00:51:59,870 --> 00:52:01,505 turn them into collective action. 816 00:52:01,825 --> 00:52:03,665 I'm excited to keep this journey going. 817 00:54:16,595 --> 00:54:18,835 Mike Rugnetta: That is the show we have for you this week. We're 818 00:54:18,835 --> 00:54:22,115 gonna be back here in the main feed on Wednesday, December 3. 819 00:54:22,275 --> 00:54:27,635 Never post would simply not be possible without the support of 820 00:54:27,635 --> 00:54:30,650 our members. And the more members we have, the more 821 00:54:30,650 --> 00:54:34,170 possible the show becomes, and the more possibilities exist for 822 00:54:34,170 --> 00:54:39,370 what we can do with it for you. Become a member at neverpo.st, 823 00:54:39,370 --> 00:54:44,090 and for $4 a month, help us help you by helping us to make more 824 00:54:44,090 --> 00:54:47,405 weird internet audio to help you. 825 00:54:47,405 --> 00:54:53,725 Neverpo.st, $4 a month, the end. Neverpost's producers are Audrey 826 00:54:53,725 --> 00:54:56,525 Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name 827 00:54:56,525 --> 00:54:59,565 last name. Our friend of the show this episode was Meagle 828 00:54:59,565 --> 00:55:02,730 Janardin. Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive 829 00:55:02,730 --> 00:55:04,330 producer is Jason Oberholzer. 830 00:55:04,330 --> 00:55:20,955 And the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rignetta. Who flees? The 831 00:55:20,955 --> 00:55:27,595 bank of society. That French woman, Gauguin. Who chronicles 832 00:55:27,595 --> 00:55:30,570 the groveling shame and disgrace? 833 00:55:31,770 --> 00:55:38,570 That French woman, Duras. Who flees the state, the men's club, 834 00:55:38,570 --> 00:55:43,595 and who stays and goes to bed to service it tomorrow in low wage 835 00:55:43,595 --> 00:55:50,875 white labor uniform. Excerpt of Dalmatian people by Jessica 836 00:55:50,875 --> 00:56:04,450 Bett. Neverpost is a production of Charts and Leisure. It is 837 00:56:04,450 --> 00:56:06,610 distributed by Radiotopia.