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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello,
and welcome to Never Post, a

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podcast for and about the
Internet. I'm your host, Mike

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Rugnetta. This intro was written
on Monday, 12/15/2025 at 09:06PM

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eastern, and we have a
remarkable show for you this

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week. Recently, Neverpost had
the opportunity to introduce the

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folks at the tech podcast kill
switch hosted by journalist

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Dexter Thomas to Jeremy Busby, a
writer, journalist, and activist

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who has served over twenty five
years of a seventy five year

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sentence at a maximum security
facility in Beaumont, Texas. In

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this episode, we've included the
entirety of Dexter's

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conversation with Jeremy about
the work Jeremy's done

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advocating for both prisoners
and prison guards using his

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contraband mobile phone largely
from solitary confinement.

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It is an incredible conversation
that we're really happy to have

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had a small part in co
producing. Right now, we're

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gonna take a quick break. You're
gonna listen to some ads unless

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you're on the member feed. And
when we return, we're gonna talk

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about a few of the things that
have happened since the last

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time you heard from us. Sweet
dreams are made of this.

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Who am I to disagree? I travel
the world in the seven seas.

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Everybody's looking for four
stories this week. Zillow has

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removed climate risk scores from
more than a million listings

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according to the New York Times.
The online real estate

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aggregator previously displayed
information about property's

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susceptibility to fire, flood,
heat, wind, and air quality

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disaster, but no longer.

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After complaints from the
California regional multiple

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listing service from which
Zillow aggregates data

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properties for sale. Agents had
also noted that the ratings were

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hurting sales as perhaps they
should. But what do I know?

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Zillow will continue to link to
sources of the data, namely

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First Street, a climate and
financial risk modeling start

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up. And insurers will likely
continue to use their data when

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considering coverage, but scores
will no longer be displayed

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directly on listings.

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Young men hate gambling. This
according to Pew Research's

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surprising findings for 2025.
Quote, forty three percent of US

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adults say legal sports betting
is a bad thing for society.

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Continuing, one of the biggest
shifts in attitudes has occurred

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among men 30. In this group,
forty seven percent say legal

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sports betting is a bad thing
for society, an increase from

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22% in 2022.

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Americans aren't buying
smartphones as often as they

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used to. In 2016, Americans
would get a new phone every two

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years. These days, about every
two and a half. The Federal

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Reserve warns that an extended
timeline for upgraded technology

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could mean productivity losses.
And when it comes to

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institutional upgrades at
schools or businesses, shifted

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investment patterns that could
harm the economy as if anyone

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looking contentedly at their
iPhone 14 gives a shit.

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TikTok: Oh, no.

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Mike Rugnetta: Disney, in our
last story today, has struck a

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surprising deal with OpenAI to
bring its IP into Sora, their

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video generation model.
According to a press release

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quote, Sora will be able to
generate short user prompted

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social videos that can be viewed
and shared by fans, drawing on

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more than 200 Disney, Marvel,
Pixar, and Star Wars characters.

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And a selection of these fan
inspired Sora short form videos

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will be available to stream on
Disney plus, end quote. Disney

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CEO Bob Iger said, bringing
together Disney's iconic stories

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and characters with OpenAI's
groundbreaking technology puts

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imagination and creativity
directly into the hands of

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Disney fans in ways we've never
seen before, giving them richer

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and more personal ways to
connect with the Disney

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characters and stories they
love. A surprising thing to hear

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from a company whose copyright
stance up until this point could

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best be summed up as hands off
the mouse punks.

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TikTok: Oh, no.

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Mike Rugnetta: For more on this
surprising partnership, Hans

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talked with Michael Weinberg,
the executive director of the

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Engelberg Center on Innovation
Law and Policy at NYU Law.

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Hans Buetow: Thanks, Mike.
Michael, so glad to have caught

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you. Where where am I catching
you?

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Where are

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you right now?

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Michael Weinberg: I am currently
in Berlin, Germany.

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Hans Buetow: On the road, but,
like, this is critical. Let's

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figure this out together.

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Michael Weinberg: Let's figure
it out.

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Hans Buetow: Okay. This
surprising ass three year deal

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in which, as far as I can tell,
OpenAI gets 200 Disney

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characters to put into their AI
video engine, and Disney gets

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the opportunity to pay OpenAI
$1,000,000,000 as an investment,

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plus a promise from OpenAI that
the character voices won't be

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used. And don't worry, kids are
forbidden by OpenAI from using

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Sora, so no kids allowed in this
Disney product. So my first

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question is, are we in the
literal upside down? Like,

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understanding of copyright law
is that, like, 80% of modern

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copyright law is in service of
keeping Disney characters out of

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the grimy hands of a greedy
public.

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The reason there is so little in
the public domain is them

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wanting to control Mickey. So,
like, is this a reversal?

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Michael Weinberg: It certainly
is a change. They are in the

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business of no when it comes to
using their intellectual

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property, their characters,
their shows, their anything. And

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so, yes, this was a this was a
super surprise to see Disney,

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which basically defines pulling
things back to be kind of

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opening things up potentially a
little bit unclear. Maybe

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they're just not doing anything.
We don't know.

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Hans Buetow: We know very
little. We have this one press

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release and not a lot other
information. So since we don't

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have a lot of answers right now,
let's outline some of the

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questions that you, as a
copyright expert, have when you

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read this announcement and you
hear the details of it.

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Michael Weinberg: I have so many
I have so many questions, none

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of which are gonna be answered
in the short term. Some of which

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will be answered when they roll
out the terms and service, and

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some of them will be answered
with them in the month

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afterwards when people do all
their crazy stuff. But Yeah.

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Lots of questions. But the first
one is is kind of a meta

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question.

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Right? Like, whatever Disney is
doing here, they are not saying

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do whatever you want with
whatever characters we're we're

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putting in here. What safeguards
have they written in? Where are

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their bright lines? And where
are their bright lines in the

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agreement with OpenAI?

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Right? There's some sort of
contract. What are their bright

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lines gonna be in the user
agreement? And then what are the

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technical systems they're
putting in place to enforce

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those bright lines? We've all
seen the Internet take take

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these kinds of rules and be
like, thank you for these rules.

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I'm gonna go in every possible
direction that no one who was

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cutting the deal anticipated.
Disney knows that. Right? That's

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not a mystery. That's not a a
thing that people don't

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understand.

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And so what are their
contingency plans? What are they

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doing? Even if they're gonna be
using this as a learning

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experience, to get better at
understanding what's coming out

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of these AI models, what are
they gonna do when the first

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weird things start coming out?
What are they gonna because

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you're gonna get a lot of
traffic if you are the first

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person who has some, un Disney
approved activities happening

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with Disney characters

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Hans Buetow: That's right.
Coming out There's

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Michael Weinberg: a huge
incentive for people to be

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working on it.

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Hans Buetow: So then what
happens? Right? Are there things

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in place in this agreement?

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Michael Weinberg: Yeah. If there
are, who is in charge of of

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doing something about it? I
mean, what can you do? Once the

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video exists, then it exists.
And so if it's pulled out and

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it's floating around the
Internet, well, okay, OpenAI can

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shut down that person's account.

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If they wanted to go kind of
nuts, they could potentially sue

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the user for violating the terms
and conditions. That seems like

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a bad idea. We have had we
learned about that. Yeah. Disney

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could do the same thing.

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I assume Disney is not excited
about that prospect. And so do

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they just eat the rep what they
see as reputational damage when

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the first weird things come out
and just say this is the cost of

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doing business? Yeah. And if
that's the case, why this time?

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Right?

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There have been rounds and
rounds of technologies where

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there's been sort of, you know,
user generated content. Right?

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People fan fiction, all these
things Right. Where there's been

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an Internet community built up
around properties that they

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love, characters they love,
stories they love, and Disney's

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reaction historically has been
no. What is it about generative

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AI that caused someone at Disney
to say, well, maybe this time,

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why not?

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What could possibly go wrong?

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Hans Buetow: What happens when
we start to see the first user

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generated things to come out?
What happens with outputs? Like,

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when people start making Disney
things, who owns those things?

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Michael Weinberg: Yeah. So
here's one of the the kind of

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the crazy things about these
generative AI models that that

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people I think we're just
beginning to kind of wrap our

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minds around. When you use a
model to create something, to to

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generate an output, in The US,
no one owns the copyright in

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that output. So you as the
prompter have no copyright

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interest in the output. Now,
doesn't mean it's totally free

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of copyright.

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Right? If you, you know,
whatever. If you if you have

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Darth Vader in your output, you
don't own any copyright on

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whatever you've created.

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Hans Buetow: Okay.

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Michael Weinberg: But Disney
still owns the copyright of

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Darth Vader. It doesn't erase
existing copyright, but there's

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no new copyright. And so this,
like, new fan video exists in

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the public domain. And so
there's this very weird right

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situation where if you if you
wrote fanfic or you made a a

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video and uploaded it to
YouTube, right, you would own

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the copyright in the video. You
would own the copyright in the,

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you know, the the fanfic writing
that you did, and Disney would

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own the copyright in the
characters.

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And so there'd be some kind of
tension between, you know, the

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two of you. In this case, at
least legally, there's no real

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tension. You own nothing. Disney
owns something. Now there are

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non legal reasons that Disney
might want might wanna, you

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know, work something out with
you before they feature it on

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Disney plus or whatever.

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But the legal posture is very
weird and very different.

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Hans Buetow: Do you think this
is

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gonna affect the terms of
service of using Sora and

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OpenAI?

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Michael Weinberg: I mean, it
may. I you know, on some level,

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I assume that I I would expect
that there's gonna be some kind

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of path that if you use SOAR and
OpenAI and use Disney

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characters, you are explicitly
giving Disney rights to do some

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number of things. Even if you
don't have any rights to give

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them, Disney's lawyers are
conservative. They're gonna make

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sure there's an additional layer
of the agreement there. And so

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this is another thing that we
don't know.

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Hans Buetow: Mhmm.

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Michael Weinberg: Right? We
don't know what you are giving

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to Disney in return for being
able to incorporate their

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characters into whatever you
generate.

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Hans Buetow: What is gonna be
your first prompt that you're

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gonna put into Sora?

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Michael Weinberg: I don't mean,
you know, like, I just wanna you

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really gotta you, like, look
down the list of the characters

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and find the deepest cut and
then the weirdest thing and

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really kind of go nuts. I mean,
the beauty of this, the beauty

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of the Internet, when we're
still thinking about the

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positive parts of the Internet,
is there's gonna be a lot of

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people who stress test us better
than I would. So I can just

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kinda sit back and watch what
happens for a while. I don't

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have to drive the train. I can
just watch it go by.

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Hans Buetow: It's gonna be
fascinating to see what happens

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when Disney shuts down with the
full force that Disney comes at

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something, something the
Internet has fallen in love

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with.

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Michael Weinberg: Totally. I
mean, this is this is going to

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be I mean, we see this we see
this regularly with things on

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YouTube. Right? Where there's a
community that is built up,

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people love it. You know, Disney
has has no real experience with

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the fan community in this way.

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And if Disney starts changing
its position, it's gonna take

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time for everyone to renormalize
around it. And a thing that you

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see sometimes in these fan
communities is a sense of

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exploitation. Right?

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Hans Buetow: Mhmm.

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Michael Weinberg: We are
generating all these things.

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We're generating the energy.
We're generating the new ideas.

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We have this new stuff. Disney,
you swoop in and you take what

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you want, and then you say no to
other things.

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Yeah. And that could be a moment
for people to really kind of

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reevaluate how they think about
the fairness of that

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relationship and how Disney is
as a steward of what is a shared

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cultural property in a lot of
ways.

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Hans Buetow: Well, Michael
Weinberg, in terms of fandoms,

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I'm a fan of yours. And I really
appreciate you popping in from

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Berlin emergency style to help
us understand what to look for

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as this thing develops. So
thanks so much for joining us.

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Thank you. Alright, Mike.

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Back to you.

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Mike Rugnetta: Alright. That's
the news we have for you this

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week. In this episode, Dexter
Thomas from Killswitch talks

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with Jeremy Busby about his
tenuous connection to the

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00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:45,505
outside world via the internet
from prison. Dexter, thank you

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so much for joining us. We're
huge fans of yours and of the

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show, so it's great to have you
on Neverpost.

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Dexter Thomas: Oh, my gosh.
Thank you so much for having me

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on here. This is amazing.

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Mike Rugnetta: We're gonna hear
a Killswitch episode,

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00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,160
essentially, as a Neverpost
episode. Just so folks sort of

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like know what they're about to
hear and have some context, I

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just wanna ask you a few, like,
really broad questions both

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about yourself and about the
story that we're about to hear.

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Sure. Because you mentioned in
what we're about to hear that

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you're a journalist, you've
reported on prisons in the past,

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you've reported on the Internet
in the past. So I'm just curious

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like, what has that work been
for you and how did it lead you

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eventually to Killswitch?

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Dexter Thomas: Yeah. Killswitch,
the podcast we work on now, is

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basically a podcast about living
in the future and how the future

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has arrived. Nobody wants it. It
sucks. But how did we get here,

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and is there anything we can do
about it?

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So the back end of that is that
I used to work at Vice, and a

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00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:53,460
lot of my reporting was broadly
speaking, it was like culture

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reporting. So, you know, I'd be
in China hanging out with

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rappers. I'd be in South Africa
talking to people about

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elections. I'd be in Ohio
talking about opioid epidemics.

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So for me, all of that is
culture.

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And increasingly, you know, a
lot so much culture is online

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where even saying that is kind
of redundant, like saying online

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culture, like, of course,
everybody's online. Who doesn't

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have a phone? For me, I've
always been really interested in

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technology. You know, I'm one of
those people who, like, I daily

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drive Linux. If you don't know
what that means, good.

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Your life is you're living a
healthy, normal adjusted life. I

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don't recommend that as a life
choice for anybody.

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Mike Rugnetta: Not a rabbit hole
to fall into. Just stay away

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from the edge of that one. Yeah.

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Dexter Thomas: Yeah. It's fine.
You you don't you don't need to

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00:15:38,635 --> 00:15:41,890
do that to yourself. But I'm
just really interested in how

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people use technology to do
unexpected things. And

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Killswitch, we were really clear
that, alright, this isn't just

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gonna be like iPhone reviews.

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00:15:51,650 --> 00:15:54,755
This is gonna be what does
technology mean in every part of

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your life for everybody. And I
mean, and this is actually the

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00:15:58,675 --> 00:16:01,875
second episode we've done about
what we're gonna talk about

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00:16:01,875 --> 00:16:06,690
about prisons, and people who
were incarcerated also use

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technology whether they're
supposed to or not.

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. What you
mentioned, you know, people

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doing strange things with
technology, but you also do a

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00:16:14,290 --> 00:16:18,050
lot of stories about technology
appearing or unexpected pieces

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of technology appearing in maybe
what for a lot of people are

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unexpected places.

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Dexter Thomas: Yeah.

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Mike Rugnetta: And that's
actually the next thing I wanted

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00:16:24,905 --> 00:16:27,705
to ask was, you mentioned in the
story previous reporting that

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00:16:27,705 --> 00:16:31,385
you did about tablets in prison.
And I was wondering if you could

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00:16:31,385 --> 00:16:33,065
talk a little bit about what
that was.

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00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,400
Dexter Thomas: Yeah. So that was
actually a colleague of mine,

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00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,720
Gabby Kaplan, who we interviewed
about this, and basically, I

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talked to her about the fact
that there have been tablets. I

308
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,215
mean, just think of very, very
cheap, not very well equipped

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00:16:51,295 --> 00:16:54,255
iPads that are available for
purchase

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Mike Rugnetta: Of course.

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00:16:55,055 --> 00:16:57,295
Dexter Thomas: In some prisons.
Right? In some prisons and in

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00:16:57,295 --> 00:17:01,455
some jails, and they cost a
bunch of money, but you could

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00:17:01,455 --> 00:17:04,990
pay money to, for example, send
a message to the outside world

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00:17:04,990 --> 00:17:07,870
and receive a message, you know,
with their mom on the outside

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00:17:07,870 --> 00:17:11,150
Yeah. Or their kids on the
outside. And then all of a

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00:17:11,150 --> 00:17:14,750
sudden that's shut down with no
real explanation.

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00:17:15,775 --> 00:17:18,815
And if you look at it, this is
kind of like a consumer

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00:17:18,815 --> 00:17:22,975
technology story, which is like,
yo, you bought this product and

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00:17:22,975 --> 00:17:26,575
then the company disabled the
main feature. But then also,

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00:17:26,575 --> 00:17:30,495
what does it mean when you've
got a population of people who

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00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,640
because the jails, you know, and
the prisons keep going on

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00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,960
lockdown, which means that
you're not able to leave your

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00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,560
cell. These people have to come
home at some point. Yeah. They

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00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,800
do ten years in a completely
different society, a very

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00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,665
violent and dangerous society,
and they come back outside and

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00:17:45,665 --> 00:17:49,665
they haven't spoken to anybody,
do you think they're going to be

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00:17:49,665 --> 00:17:52,465
able to reintegrate into society
very well?

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00:17:52,465 --> 00:17:55,265
It's gonna be very difficult for
them. So this is a safety issue

329
00:17:55,265 --> 00:17:57,105
even for the people on the
outside, really.

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00:17:57,105 --> 00:17:59,345
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. It's a
consumer technology issue that

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00:17:59,345 --> 00:18:00,865
has a lot of ripple effects.

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00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:02,540
Dexter Thomas: Yes. Yes.

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00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:06,540
Mike Rugnetta: So we heard this
story and we had just to provide

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00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:10,060
some background for the
audience, Neverpost has an open

335
00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:11,980
line of communication. We go
back and forth with the Freedom

336
00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:15,415
of the Press Foundation. And
they had actually mentioned to

337
00:18:15,415 --> 00:18:19,255
us, they were like, hey, we know
this guy, Jeremy Busby. Would

338
00:18:19,255 --> 00:18:23,015
you be interested in talking to
him? He's a journalist that is

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00:18:23,015 --> 00:18:26,535
incarcerated on a seventy five
year sentence.

340
00:18:26,695 --> 00:18:31,110
And we were like, we would love
to hear what conversation Jeremy

341
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:36,310
would have with Dexter, which is
sort of how how we ended up

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00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:41,590
doing like 2% of co production
for this. Much more than that.

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00:18:42,705 --> 00:18:45,425
I'm so excited for everybody to
hear it. So this is what

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00:18:45,425 --> 00:18:49,185
everybody is about to hear. It's
this conversation between you

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00:18:49,185 --> 00:18:53,185
and Jeremy who has already
served is it twenty five years?

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00:18:54,225 --> 00:18:56,065
Dexter Thomas: I think in about
there. Yeah.

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00:18:56,065 --> 00:19:00,450
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. And while
being incarcerated during this

348
00:19:00,450 --> 00:19:04,210
time, he's become a journalist,
which he's really only been able

349
00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:08,610
to do because of what is
effectively an illicit Internet

350
00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:12,815
connection that he has in
prison. And I was wondering if

351
00:19:12,815 --> 00:19:17,135
you could just like paint a
little bit of a picture for us

352
00:19:18,335 --> 00:19:24,870
about what what internet access
tends to look like in prison,

353
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:28,950
and just maybe the smallest
little teaser about how it's

354
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:31,830
different for Jeremy or or how
he fits into that.

355
00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:35,750
Dexter Thomas: Yeah. Well, the
funny thing is Internet access

356
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:39,995
in prison has changed a lot. You
know, one of the things that we

357
00:19:39,995 --> 00:19:44,555
don't talk about in this
particular episode is what

358
00:19:44,555 --> 00:19:48,315
people call prison talk as in
like TikTok and prison talk. So,

359
00:19:48,315 --> 00:19:50,715
you know, you got like book
talk, which is book, you know,

360
00:19:50,715 --> 00:19:52,315
people making TikToks about
books.

361
00:19:53,230 --> 00:19:55,150
Mike Rugnetta: The sort of
subgenre marker.

362
00:19:55,150 --> 00:19:58,510
Dexter Thomas: Yeah. Exactly.
There's this prison talk, which

363
00:19:58,590 --> 00:20:04,030
is all over the place, but a lot
of people know it as somebody

364
00:20:04,030 --> 00:20:07,195
will have a phone on the inside,
which again, they're not

365
00:20:07,195 --> 00:20:10,555
supposed to do this, but they
make it inside anyway. And

366
00:20:10,715 --> 00:20:14,075
people are doing all the things
that you would expect somebody

367
00:20:14,075 --> 00:20:16,955
to do on TikTok normally.
There's people doing dance

368
00:20:16,955 --> 00:20:17,515
challenges.

369
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:21,390
There's people cooking is really
common, people showing how they

370
00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:26,590
cook a ramen, make burritos,
make anything. But then also

371
00:20:26,590 --> 00:20:32,245
talking about conditions on the
inside. What is more unique

372
00:20:32,245 --> 00:20:36,405
though is what Jeremy is doing,
which is actually functioning as

373
00:20:36,645 --> 00:20:40,965
he's he's just a journalist.
Realistically speaking, he and I

374
00:20:40,965 --> 00:20:45,600
are colleagues. We're
colleagues, and he's just doing

375
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,920
it under much much more
difficult conditions than I've

376
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,040
ever had to deal with.

377
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:54,800
But he also has a degree of
access that I could never have.

378
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,245
Listen, I've tried. I have I've
gone through all of the proper

379
00:21:00,245 --> 00:21:04,885
outlets. I've done the things
where you ask the warden, where

380
00:21:04,885 --> 00:21:07,925
you write an email, where you
make phone calls and you say,

381
00:21:07,925 --> 00:21:10,245
hey, we would like to report on
this, we'd like to interview

382
00:21:10,245 --> 00:21:13,280
this person and it's oh, hey,
this isn't a good time, hey,

383
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,120
we're short staffed, hey, we're
busy, hey, just no.

384
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:18,400
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah, I'm sure.

385
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,800
Dexter Thomas: What Jeremy is
able to do, and I really want

386
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,880
people to understand this, some
of the things that Jeremy has

387
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,775
exposed and some of the things
that Jeremy has genuinely

388
00:21:27,775 --> 00:21:30,815
changed about the inside and for
people, not only himself, but

389
00:21:30,815 --> 00:21:36,255
other people who are in the
system, including the guards,

390
00:21:37,295 --> 00:21:40,660
potentially improving the lives
of the guards, not just people

391
00:21:40,660 --> 00:21:45,940
who are incarcerated. These are
things that I could never do. If

392
00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:49,380
you're listening to this, more
than likely you could never do.

393
00:21:50,260 --> 00:21:52,980
Mike Rugnetta: And I mean, this
comes through in the in the

394
00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:58,075
story, but like, it really seems
like he's got a force of will

395
00:21:58,075 --> 00:22:03,595
that is unparalleled. Mhmm. He
is doing things in just

396
00:22:03,595 --> 00:22:07,915
unthinkable conditions that like
are unbelievable. It's

397
00:22:07,915 --> 00:22:09,915
unbelievable to hear what he
pulls off.

398
00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:14,610
Dexter Thomas: Yeah. There are a
couple moments. It gets super

399
00:22:14,610 --> 00:22:18,930
real super quick because just
the conditions you were made

400
00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:23,805
aware of it a couple of times.
This what it's like when you

401
00:22:23,805 --> 00:22:27,085
communicate with somebody who's
locked up, is you're constantly

402
00:22:27,085 --> 00:22:31,245
being interrupted and you're
constantly being reminded that,

403
00:22:32,365 --> 00:22:36,790
for me, this is just a this is a
phone call, But for them, this

404
00:22:36,790 --> 00:22:39,030
is much more dire than that.

405
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:42,470
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Alright.
Well, I'm excited for everybody

406
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:43,830
to hear this conversation.

407
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:44,630
Dexter Thomas: Same. So let's

408
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:44,950
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah.

409
00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:47,990
Let's let's stop keeping them
from it. Yeah.

410
00:22:54,135 --> 00:22:56,615
Jeremy Busby: The first time
I've seen social media, I was at

411
00:22:56,615 --> 00:23:01,415
the wind unit in Huntsville,
Texas. I think it's like around

412
00:23:01,415 --> 00:23:03,940
2011.

413
00:23:05,540 --> 00:23:08,340
Dexter Thomas: Jeremy Busby is
48 years old. We talked back in

414
00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:11,300
October about the Internet and
social media, but what's

415
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:13,940
different about this interview
is that Jeremy's calling me from

416
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:18,115
a prison in Huntsville, Texas.
Jeremy's been in prison since

417
00:23:18,115 --> 00:23:21,875
1999. Back then, the internet
was a different place.

418
00:23:21,955 --> 00:23:24,355
Jeremy Busby: I didn't know
anything about Facebook or

419
00:23:24,355 --> 00:23:27,555
Twitter, but I knew about
Myspace. Because when I was a

420
00:23:27,555 --> 00:23:31,550
free society, Myspace was just
becoming a thing. So I knew

421
00:23:31,550 --> 00:23:32,430
about that.

422
00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:34,590
Dexter Thomas: Jeremy didn't
really have any contact with

423
00:23:34,590 --> 00:23:37,710
social media until the early
twenty tens. A few years after

424
00:23:37,710 --> 00:23:39,550
Facebook was already popular.

425
00:23:39,790 --> 00:23:43,565
Jeremy Busby: A friend of mine
had a contraband cell phone. He

426
00:23:43,565 --> 00:23:46,765
was fresh from the free society.
He had just come to prison. And

427
00:23:46,765 --> 00:23:50,285
so this was his whole entire
livelihood, social media. It was

428
00:23:50,285 --> 00:23:51,725
all about social media.

429
00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:54,170
Dexter Thomas: Since Jeremy's
been locked up, social media has

430
00:23:54,170 --> 00:23:56,970
gone through a few different
phases. It went from this weird

431
00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:59,930
hobby that college kids and
computer nerds were into, to

432
00:23:59,930 --> 00:24:03,450
this new hopeful way to spread
democracy, to now a more

433
00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:05,850
pessimistic view of this thing
that gives us short attention

434
00:24:05,850 --> 00:24:08,935
spans, causes addictive
behavior, and makes politics

435
00:24:08,935 --> 00:24:12,695
more polarized. But in prison,
the situation is a little

436
00:24:12,695 --> 00:24:13,255
different.

437
00:24:14,295 --> 00:24:19,015
Jeremy Busby: In 2020, when the
pandemic hit, Texas prison

438
00:24:19,015 --> 00:24:23,470
system had no protocol on how to
deal with the COVID nineteen

439
00:24:23,550 --> 00:24:28,670
pandemic. My cellmate had two
cell phones. He was like, man,

440
00:24:28,670 --> 00:24:30,910
listen. You can use another
phone. He's just sitting right

441
00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:31,390
there, man.

442
00:24:31,390 --> 00:24:34,350
I pay the bill. You can use it
if you wanna use it. And so,

443
00:24:34,725 --> 00:24:37,605
finally, man, I grabbed the
phone, and the first thing I did

444
00:24:37,605 --> 00:24:42,805
is I went to YouTube, and I
googled how do you set up a

445
00:24:42,805 --> 00:24:47,525
Facebook page. So I learned
Facebook. I learned Instagram.

446
00:24:47,845 --> 00:24:51,800
I learned Twitter. I learned how
to edit videos. I learned how to

447
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,680
make slides. I learned how to
get the message out on

448
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,640
Instagram, how to get the
message out on YouTube. And

449
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,040
that's how me and Trey end up on
live.

450
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,520
Dexter Thomas: In 2020, during
the peak of the COVID nineteen

451
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,725
pandemic, Jeremy went live on
Instagram with a rapper named

452
00:25:05,725 --> 00:25:08,685
Trey the truth to talk about the
conditions inside the Texas

453
00:25:08,685 --> 00:25:11,965
state prison. That put a lot
more eyes on what was happening

454
00:25:11,965 --> 00:25:12,605
in there.

455
00:25:12,925 --> 00:25:16,765
TikTok: What unit is can't tell
you the unit, bro, but I can

456
00:25:16,765 --> 00:25:19,970
tell you I'm in Texas. It's
getting serious down here, man.

457
00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:23,890
Brother, you know, they dying
from this corona, man. You said

458
00:25:23,890 --> 00:25:26,770
they cut the phones off. They're
not dangling y'all car home?

459
00:25:27,330 --> 00:25:30,290
No. They got everything racked
up, man. They got I think it's,

460
00:25:30,290 --> 00:25:35,655
like, 35 units on lockdown. For
everybody on here, what's the

461
00:25:35,655 --> 00:25:38,615
what's the best way for us to
do? We need to write Huntsville.

462
00:25:38,855 --> 00:25:39,815
We need to call Huntsville.

463
00:25:39,815 --> 00:25:42,615
Dexter Thomas: Social media is
giving us unfiltered access into

464
00:25:42,615 --> 00:25:46,470
prisons, something that we'd
never had before. But we may not

465
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:47,750
have it for much longer.

466
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:50,550
Jeremy Busby: You gotta look at
prison like in the same context

467
00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:54,310
as you look at the slavery. Not
only do these people try to

468
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:57,430
control what goes out the
prison, they try to control what

469
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:58,710
comes into the prison.

470
00:26:29,005 --> 00:26:31,085
Dexter Thomas: Before we get
into Jeremy's experiences with

471
00:26:31,085 --> 00:26:34,045
social media, we should probably
do some backstory. The reason

472
00:26:34,045 --> 00:26:37,245
that Jeremy's in prison starts
when he was 21 years old. It was

473
00:26:37,245 --> 00:26:41,690
10/01/1998 at a motel in Dallas
County. Here's how Jeremy

474
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:42,570
explains it.

475
00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:46,410
Jeremy Busby: I pulled up in a
motel about four or 05:00 in the

476
00:26:46,410 --> 00:26:49,450
morning. There was a couple of
guys out in the motel selling

477
00:26:49,450 --> 00:26:52,890
drugs, and so they tried to sell
me some drugs. And so we got

478
00:26:52,890 --> 00:26:55,610
into an argument in the middle
of the parking lot because they

479
00:26:55,610 --> 00:26:59,395
was persistent. The argument
turned into threats, he took his

480
00:26:59,395 --> 00:27:01,715
shirt off like he was gonna try
to assault me or whatever the

481
00:27:01,715 --> 00:27:04,675
case may be. His friend tried to
hold him back.

482
00:27:04,675 --> 00:27:08,115
He wasn't able to. And so when
he ran towards me, I pulled a

483
00:27:08,115 --> 00:27:13,070
gun. I shot him one time, and
that was in 1998 and that

484
00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:15,950
resulted in me getting a seventy
five year prison sentence for

485
00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:16,590
murder.

486
00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:19,310
Dexter Thomas: Jeremy is now on
his twenty seventh year of a

487
00:27:19,310 --> 00:27:20,830
seventy five year sentence.

488
00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:24,270
Jeremy Busby: My mistake was I
left the scene of the crime.

489
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:28,265
When it happened, I panicked and
I fled. And that was the biggest

490
00:27:28,265 --> 00:27:30,985
mistake that I could have made
because when they came down to

491
00:27:30,985 --> 00:27:34,745
my trial, that's pretty much
what the DA relied upon was the

492
00:27:34,745 --> 00:27:39,145
fact that, you know, if mister
Busby really felt like that this

493
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,760
theft defense, why he didn't
just wait for the police to

494
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,120
come, why did he flee and all of
that, how the kid is from the

495
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:47,320
hood. And, you know, we don't
really deal with the police too

496
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,640
much when something like that
happen. It's just a natural

497
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:50,520
reaction to flee.

498
00:27:51,095 --> 00:27:54,375
But nevertheless, instead of
crying out with spilled milk, I

499
00:27:54,375 --> 00:27:57,175
decided to come to prison and
identify the areas where I went

500
00:27:57,175 --> 00:28:00,375
wrong that possibly led me to
come into prison for the

501
00:28:00,375 --> 00:28:04,135
sentence and then making all of
the necessary steps that I

502
00:28:04,135 --> 00:28:07,130
needed to make to ensure that
this doesn't ever happen to me

503
00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:11,290
again. Right? Which includes my
problem solving skills, my

504
00:28:11,290 --> 00:28:15,370
conflict resolution skills, my
coping mechanisms, all of these

505
00:28:15,370 --> 00:28:17,370
things that I wasn't taught
during my youth.

506
00:28:18,925 --> 00:28:21,325
Dexter Thomas: Pretty soon after
Jeremy arrived in prison, he

507
00:28:21,325 --> 00:28:24,285
realized that he had something
that the other incarcerated men

508
00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:25,885
around him didn't have.

509
00:28:25,885 --> 00:28:28,525
Jeremy Busby: When I first got
to prison, one of the things

510
00:28:28,525 --> 00:28:31,965
that I noticed despite the fact
that I had dropped out of school

511
00:28:31,965 --> 00:28:36,550
in the eighth grade, I could
read and write and comprehend

512
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:40,470
better than the majority of the
people that was in Texas prison.

513
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:44,470
And so as a result of that, I
became like a person that would

514
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:47,205
help people write letters to
their families. I was going down

515
00:28:47,205 --> 00:28:49,525
to the La La Berry to help
people because I'm working on my

516
00:28:49,525 --> 00:28:52,325
own personal case. But as I was
learning, I'm helping them

517
00:28:52,325 --> 00:28:57,365
interpret and learn the law. And
then finally, I got in contact

518
00:28:57,365 --> 00:28:59,845
with an attorney named Dunya
Witherspoon.

519
00:28:59,490 --> 00:29:02,930
Poon. We became real good
friends. And she started writing

520
00:29:02,930 --> 00:29:05,250
me because she had heard about
my case and she wanted to help

521
00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:08,690
me out. And so all of these
letters that I was writing to

522
00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:13,090
her, she eventually say, Jeremy,
listen. I wanna take some of

523
00:29:13,090 --> 00:29:16,065
these letters and start sending
them to the newspaper because

524
00:29:16,065 --> 00:29:19,185
you're a real good writer and
the stuff that you're writing me

525
00:29:19,185 --> 00:29:20,545
is about prisons.

526
00:29:20,545 --> 00:29:23,185
And a lot of people on the
outside don't understand

527
00:29:23,185 --> 00:29:26,145
everything that you understand
and you do such a good job

528
00:29:26,145 --> 00:29:27,265
articulating this.

529
00:29:28,110 --> 00:29:30,510
Dexter Thomas: So with Danya's
encouragement, Jeremy began the

530
00:29:30,510 --> 00:29:33,630
next phase of his life as a
journalist, just one who's

531
00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:36,910
reporting from inside the
prison. In general, even if a

532
00:29:36,910 --> 00:29:39,550
journalist like me tries to go
and observe things, prison

533
00:29:39,550 --> 00:29:42,590
officials can be very
restrictive of what you can do.

534
00:29:42,965 --> 00:29:46,165
So having a journalist on the
inside like Jeremy means the

535
00:29:46,165 --> 00:29:49,445
people in the outside world can
get a more unfiltered look at a

536
00:29:49,445 --> 00:29:52,565
world that was almost invisible
to most of us before.

537
00:29:53,445 --> 00:29:59,460
Jeremy Busby: They already have
this tedious tedious process of

538
00:29:59,460 --> 00:30:02,580
of open records act like a
person like you wanted to file

539
00:30:02,580 --> 00:30:05,860
to get something on me. They'll
put you through so much stuff to

540
00:30:05,860 --> 00:30:08,660
try to get it, and then you
might not even get it. And then

541
00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:12,155
they might repack whatever you
get and all of that crap. And so

542
00:30:12,155 --> 00:30:15,275
it's all a universal game of
censorship.

543
00:30:15,835 --> 00:30:17,915
Dexter Thomas: Jeremy knew that
he could provide information to

544
00:30:17,915 --> 00:30:21,195
people on the outside. He just
didn't know if anyone would care

545
00:30:21,195 --> 00:30:24,555
what he was saying. It turned
out, some people did.

546
00:30:24,930 --> 00:30:29,090
Jeremy Busby: Back in, 2003, I
wrote an article for the San

547
00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:33,170
Francisco Review about the heat
in Texas prison system and how

548
00:30:33,170 --> 00:30:36,290
we don't have any air condition
here. They don't give us any

549
00:30:36,290 --> 00:30:40,755
type of relief as far as, like,
cold water or any type of cold

550
00:30:40,755 --> 00:30:44,755
showers or anything like that to
negate the extensive heat in the

551
00:30:44,755 --> 00:30:47,875
prison system. Of course,
everyone knows detectives has

552
00:30:47,875 --> 00:30:51,875
very hot summers. And most of
these structures that we have

553
00:30:52,290 --> 00:30:55,490
was built in the mid eighteen
hundreds, early nineteen

554
00:30:55,490 --> 00:30:59,250
hundreds. They're all out of
brick and steel, and they don't

555
00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:02,770
have any type of modern
ventilation or anything of that

556
00:31:02,770 --> 00:31:03,410
nature.

557
00:31:03,650 --> 00:31:07,105
And so if you don't have family
members on the outside that can

558
00:31:07,105 --> 00:31:10,945
send you money to buy a t shirt
or buy a pair of gym shorts or

559
00:31:10,945 --> 00:31:13,905
buy a pair of tennis shoes, then
you gotta wear your state

560
00:31:13,905 --> 00:31:17,345
uniform the whole entire time.
It makes you even hotter.

561
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:21,190
There's been temperatures
recorded inside of the cell

562
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:24,630
block inside of these buildings
sometimes that have exceeded

563
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:29,750
over a 165 degrees in certain
places. In order to combat the

564
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:33,785
heat, this is what I used to
have to do. I go in my cell, and

565
00:31:33,785 --> 00:31:36,665
I have to put, like, maybe a
couple of gallons of water on

566
00:31:36,665 --> 00:31:37,385
the floor.

567
00:31:37,785 --> 00:31:40,905
And I had to strip all the way
down to my boxer shorts, and I

568
00:31:40,905 --> 00:31:45,030
had to lay in that water. And
you have to repeat that process

569
00:31:45,030 --> 00:31:50,390
over and over and over and over
again just to maintain a body

570
00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:54,870
temperature that prohibits you
from having a heat stroke. And

571
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:58,070
you have some guys that are,
like, put their shirts in the

572
00:31:58,070 --> 00:32:01,405
water, they and wear their shirt
while it's wet because we don't

573
00:32:01,405 --> 00:32:05,325
have a shower that you can just
go walk and get into the shower.

574
00:32:05,325 --> 00:32:09,645
It's like one shower per day
room. I think we was averaging

575
00:32:09,645 --> 00:32:13,645
something close to, like, ten to
fifteen heat related deaths

576
00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:16,060
every single summer in Texas
prison.

577
00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:17,020
Dexter Thomas: Oh my gosh.

578
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:19,660
Jeremy Busby: It felt like the
numbers can be a lot more

579
00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:23,500
because they'll come back after
the autopsy or whatever and say,

580
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:26,940
this guy died from complications
of diabetes or he died from

581
00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:30,075
complications of hypertension.
But the truth of the matter is

582
00:32:30,075 --> 00:32:32,795
there was the heat that
triggered all of it and it was

583
00:32:32,795 --> 00:32:36,475
the heat related illness that
caused death. And so I had wrote

584
00:32:36,475 --> 00:32:40,075
this long article to the San
Francisco Bayview, and I

585
00:32:40,075 --> 00:32:43,160
basically said, listen. There's
nothing for these people to

586
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,160
bring down coolers and fill them
up with ice every morning and

587
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,880
allow us to be able to drink
cold water throughout the day.

588
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,160
And that could possibly save
one, two, maybe ten, maybe a

589
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,120
hundred lives.

590
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,055
Right? When I wrote that, some
days later, they came with a

591
00:32:58,055 --> 00:33:01,975
whole big cart full of yellow
igloo coolers that was filled up

592
00:33:01,975 --> 00:33:05,095
with ice, and they put one on
every single set of block.

593
00:33:05,415 --> 00:33:07,175
Dexter Thomas: Wow. That
immediate.

594
00:33:07,175 --> 00:33:09,860
Jeremy Busby: Yeah. That
immediately. And then my editor

595
00:33:09,860 --> 00:33:13,540
at the time was Mary Ratcliffe
at the San Francisco Bayview,

596
00:33:13,540 --> 00:33:16,500
and she told me that they
politely sent her a letter

597
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,620
asking her if she can retract my
article because they had solved

598
00:33:19,620 --> 00:33:20,180
the problem.

599
00:33:21,635 --> 00:33:24,035
Dexter Thomas: We reached out to
the Texas Department of Criminal

600
00:33:24,035 --> 00:33:26,755
Justice about Jeremy saying that
they'd asked for his article to

601
00:33:26,755 --> 00:33:30,995
be retracted. They declined to
comment. After Jeremy wrote his

602
00:33:30,995 --> 00:33:34,110
article on the heat inside
prisons, he's also reported on

603
00:33:34,110 --> 00:33:37,550
overdoses and suicide in prison,
experiencing executions

604
00:33:37,550 --> 00:33:40,110
happening near his cell, and
what happens when the prison

605
00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:42,910
goes on lockdown. His works
appeared in places that

606
00:33:42,910 --> 00:33:45,390
specialize in reporting on
prisons like the Marshall

607
00:33:45,390 --> 00:33:48,910
Project, but it's also been in
publications that the general

608
00:33:48,585 --> 00:33:51,305
public reads, like Slate
Magazine or the Columbia

609
00:33:51,305 --> 00:33:55,225
Journalism Review. But getting
those articles out isn't always

610
00:33:55,225 --> 00:33:55,785
easy.

611
00:33:56,585 --> 00:34:00,425
Jeremy Busby: As an incarcerated
journalist, I have this hill

612
00:34:00,505 --> 00:34:05,370
that I have to climb with these
legacy media outlets. I have to

613
00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:09,690
cross all of my t's. I have to
dot all of my i's. I damn near

614
00:34:09,690 --> 00:34:12,650
have to put them in contact with
the warden for the warden to

615
00:34:12,650 --> 00:34:16,090
say, yeah. Everything that
Jeremy wrote is legit.

616
00:34:16,925 --> 00:34:20,525
And so a lot of times, some of
the stuff that the people write

617
00:34:20,845 --> 00:34:23,885
being incarcerated, they write
to these media outlets, that

618
00:34:23,885 --> 00:34:27,405
stuff never gets to the press
because some editor somewhere

619
00:34:27,405 --> 00:34:31,800
saying, hey, man. I can't find
what we can substantiate this. I

620
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,160
don't know if this really is
going on or whatever the case

621
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,920
may be. So it ends up in
somebody's shredder. Now as you

622
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,840
know from being on the outside
in journalism, when you got

623
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,445
social media, you can skip the
whole entire legacy media outlet

624
00:34:47,445 --> 00:34:48,405
process.

625
00:34:48,645 --> 00:34:53,365
You have a a unobstructed avenue
to put the information out that

626
00:34:53,365 --> 00:34:54,645
you wanna put out.

627
00:34:55,605 --> 00:34:57,525
Dexter Thomas: The ability to
communicate directly with the

628
00:34:57,525 --> 00:35:01,610
outside world is crucial for
Jeremy. But how does he do it?

629
00:35:01,770 --> 00:35:04,330
So there are two main ways that
incarcerated people can

630
00:35:04,330 --> 00:35:07,370
communicate through social
media. The first one is directly

631
00:35:07,370 --> 00:35:10,890
through a contraband cell phone.
These are against the rules, but

632
00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:12,810
they make their way into prisons
all the time.

633
00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:15,930
The other way is to call or
write to someone who's on the

634
00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:19,825
outside and have them post on
your behalf. Jeremy's done both.

635
00:35:19,985 --> 00:35:22,705
Either way, social media gives
Jeremy a way to show his

636
00:35:22,705 --> 00:35:25,665
perspective from prison directly
without being filtered through

637
00:35:25,665 --> 00:35:28,465
prison officials or waiting for
a local media outlet who

638
00:35:28,465 --> 00:35:31,700
believes his reporting or hoping
that some outside reporter would

639
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:35,060
take interest and cover it for
him. The best example of this is

640
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:38,500
when COVID hit. His cellmate had
a contraband cell phone, and so

641
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:41,380
Jeremy was able to directly
broadcast what was actually

642
00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:43,940
happening and get immediate
responses to help the

643
00:35:43,940 --> 00:35:45,620
incarcerated people around him.

644
00:35:47,195 --> 00:35:49,835
Jeremy Busby: I'm researching
this COVID nineteen coronavirus

645
00:35:49,835 --> 00:35:53,595
and all of the precautions that
we need in order to safeguard

646
00:35:53,595 --> 00:35:57,435
ourselves from contracting it.
One of the main two things that

647
00:35:57,435 --> 00:36:00,235
they ask you to do, well, it's
really three things. They ask

648
00:36:00,235 --> 00:36:05,350
you to social distance, to wear
our n 95 mask, and to properly

649
00:36:05,350 --> 00:36:09,110
sanitize your hands. Right? So
Texas prison system, what they

650
00:36:09,110 --> 00:36:12,790
did, they cut up a bunch of
sheets and put little springs on

651
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:15,510
the side of the sheets, and they
was issuing those sheets out to

652
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:15,670
us.

653
00:36:16,125 --> 00:36:20,045
It's like an n 95 mask. It's a
cut up sheet.

654
00:36:20,125 --> 00:36:21,725
Dexter Thomas: It's bed sheets.
Okay. Yeah.

655
00:36:21,805 --> 00:36:24,285
Jeremy Busby: Yeah. It's bed
sheets. Secondly, they wasn't

656
00:36:24,285 --> 00:36:27,245
passing out any type of
sanitation chemicals, like hand

657
00:36:27,245 --> 00:36:31,810
sanitizer or anything of that
nature. And then thirdly, it was

658
00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:34,850
impossible for us to social
distance because they got us

659
00:36:34,850 --> 00:36:38,290
locked in a cell with another
person. So my reporting on all

660
00:36:38,290 --> 00:36:41,090
of that and social media got us
the n 95 mask.

661
00:36:41,090 --> 00:36:44,745
They got us the bleach. They
started passing us real food out

662
00:36:44,745 --> 00:36:48,265
for our nutrition like bananas
and apples and grilled milk.

663
00:36:48,425 --> 00:36:50,665
Dexter Thomas: Again, we asked
the Texas Department of Criminal

664
00:36:50,665 --> 00:36:55,160
Justice about this and they
declined to comment. Ask most

665
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,400
people what they think about
social media and they'll tell

666
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,760
you that there's good parts, but
also a lot of bad parts. Echo

667
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,360
chambers, misinformation, all
that. Jeremy's aware of this

668
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,845
stuff, but he's also aware that
social media is how a lot of

669
00:37:07,845 --> 00:37:11,685
people get their news. For him,
that's an opportunity to speak,

670
00:37:12,005 --> 00:37:13,525
but also to learn.

671
00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:17,365
Jeremy Busby: One of the things
that social media did for me is

672
00:37:17,365 --> 00:37:22,000
that when I even had an idea of
an article or if I wrote the

673
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,760
article out itself, all
different type of people will

674
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,880
start sending me additional
information to either support or

675
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,640
negate or to advance the topic
matters that I found

676
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,295
interesting. Right? And what I
realized about social media is

677
00:37:36,295 --> 00:37:39,175
that I can reach people all
around the world just opposed

678
00:37:39,175 --> 00:37:42,135
to, like, if I write for a local
publication, I might reach

679
00:37:42,135 --> 00:37:44,535
people right here in Texas. If I
write for a national

680
00:37:44,535 --> 00:37:49,330
publication, I might get 30 to
35% of the nation. But when I

681
00:37:49,330 --> 00:37:53,490
post something on social media,
I can circulate that all over

682
00:37:53,490 --> 00:37:56,370
the world and even translate it
into all different type of

683
00:37:56,370 --> 00:37:57,090
languages.

684
00:37:57,250 --> 00:38:01,785
I was talking to people as far
away as Switzerland about the

685
00:38:01,785 --> 00:38:05,145
situation in Texas prison. I
know now that I don't

686
00:38:05,145 --> 00:38:08,585
necessarily have to put one of
my articles in a publication. I

687
00:38:08,585 --> 00:38:12,345
can just drop it in the thread
on egg, and it'd have the same

688
00:38:12,345 --> 00:38:16,330
value that it would have if I
had dropped it in competition

689
00:38:16,330 --> 00:38:17,530
like the Imperial.

690
00:38:18,970 --> 00:38:21,370
Dexter Thomas: Once Jeremy found
a way to use social media, he

691
00:38:21,370 --> 00:38:25,450
suddenly had access to a whole
world that he didn't before. But

692
00:38:25,450 --> 00:38:28,490
that's starting to change. Cell
phones have always been

693
00:38:28,490 --> 00:38:31,845
contraband, but now prisons
across the country are really

694
00:38:31,845 --> 00:38:35,765
cracking down on social media
access. We'll get into how and

695
00:38:35,765 --> 00:38:37,445
why after the break.

696
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,280
Jeremy Busby: One of the first
things that they told me when I

697
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,800
became a journalist in prison,
the warden called me up, and he

698
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,480
talked to me about those two
fence that surround the prison,

699
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,995
the perimeter fence with the
barbed wire. And he asked me, he

700
00:38:58,995 --> 00:39:02,035
said, Buster, why do you think
we got those two fence out there

701
00:39:02,515 --> 00:39:04,915
with the barbed wire? And I
said, well, that's to keep

702
00:39:04,915 --> 00:39:08,435
people from escaping. He said,
no. That's the wrong answer.

703
00:39:08,675 --> 00:39:12,195
We're not worried about anybody
escaping. That's to keep the

704
00:39:12,195 --> 00:39:16,890
public out of here. And when you
write what you write and give

705
00:39:16,890 --> 00:39:20,570
these people entry to come into
my prison, you're bringing them

706
00:39:20,570 --> 00:39:24,330
over my damn fence, and I don't
like that. That's what the

707
00:39:24,330 --> 00:39:29,765
warden told me. And so the
social media ban prohibits

708
00:39:29,765 --> 00:39:33,285
people from bringing the general
public over the fence.

709
00:39:34,645 --> 00:39:37,285
Dexter Thomas: In 2016, the
state of Texas where Jeremy's

710
00:39:37,285 --> 00:39:40,485
incarcerated added a brand new
rule to the state's prison

711
00:39:40,485 --> 00:39:44,340
handbook. The rule essentially
banned incarcerated people from

712
00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:48,340
having any personal social media
pages run-in their name, meaning

713
00:39:48,340 --> 00:39:51,700
that no one outside of prison is
supposed to even run an account

714
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:55,205
on Jeremy's behalf. Similar bans
have also been put in places in

715
00:39:55,205 --> 00:39:59,045
other states like Alabama and
Iowa. And last year, the US

716
00:39:59,045 --> 00:40:01,525
Federal Bureau of Prisons
proposed a rule like the one in

717
00:40:01,525 --> 00:40:04,725
Texas, but that would apply
across the entire federal prison

718
00:40:04,725 --> 00:40:07,365
system. If an incarcerated
person was found to have a

719
00:40:07,365 --> 00:40:10,300
social media account, that
violation would be treated as a

720
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,060
high severity level offense.

721
00:40:12,060 --> 00:40:14,860
That's the same category that's
applied to things like fighting

722
00:40:14,860 --> 00:40:15,660
in prison.

723
00:40:16,220 --> 00:40:19,740
Jeremy Busby: That barrier that
the prison administration had to

724
00:40:19,740 --> 00:40:23,985
continue the status quo no
longer exist for them. And so

725
00:40:23,985 --> 00:40:26,225
therefore, they gotta do
whatever they gotta do to put

726
00:40:26,225 --> 00:40:29,265
that back in place. So they got
their social media bans.

727
00:40:29,345 --> 00:40:31,505
Dexter Thomas: Back in 2016,
when the Texas Department of

728
00:40:31,505 --> 00:40:34,385
Criminal Justice put their
social media ban in place, they

729
00:40:34,385 --> 00:40:37,920
told Vice News that, quote,
offenders have used social media

730
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,440
accounts to sell items over the
Internet based on the notoriety

731
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,040
of their crime, harass victims
or victims' families, and

732
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,965
continue their criminal
activity. The department went on

733
00:40:47,965 --> 00:40:51,485
to say that they would, quote,
take all of the necessary steps

734
00:40:51,485 --> 00:40:54,925
to prevent that from happening.
We contacted them to ask whether

735
00:40:54,925 --> 00:40:57,965
that's still the reason for the
ban today. They declined to

736
00:40:57,965 --> 00:41:01,110
comment. But, again, there's
another side of this.

737
00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:04,310
If we wanna talk about criminal
activity, we have to acknowledge

738
00:41:04,310 --> 00:41:08,390
that social media is exposing
allegedly unlawful activity that

739
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:10,470
the outside world should know
about.

740
00:41:10,790 --> 00:41:14,925
Jeremy Busby: Now you can take a
picture or shoot a video about

741
00:41:14,925 --> 00:41:18,205
what's going on here at the
prison system and put that on

742
00:41:18,205 --> 00:41:21,325
Facebook or Instagram, and it's
gonna go viral, and it's gonna

743
00:41:21,325 --> 00:41:25,245
cost people their jobs. So that
scares the hell out of prison

744
00:41:25,245 --> 00:41:30,220
officials. It scares the hell
out of them. Right? Because now,

745
00:41:30,220 --> 00:41:33,100
like, what happened with me, the
No Way Out documentary when I

746
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:35,820
worked with Carrie Blackinger
behind the COVID You have one

747
00:41:35,820 --> 00:41:36,460
minute left.

748
00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:42,065
Okay. Damn. When I went live
with Tray the Truth, I was able

749
00:41:42,065 --> 00:41:46,705
to do all of that unrestricted
without having to wrestle with

750
00:41:46,705 --> 00:41:49,905
any type of mega media outlet or
anything like that. We just

751
00:41:49,905 --> 00:41:53,520
dropped it. And it caused a
whole bunch of backlash.

752
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,040
Let me call you back one more
time.

753
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,760
Dexter Thomas: Okay. Phone calls
in Jeremy's unit are limited to

754
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,560
thirty minutes, so we had to
reconnect a few times during the

755
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,120
interview. That's why you might
hear Jeremy rush through

756
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,705
sentences sometimes. He's just
trying to get out as much as

757
00:42:07,705 --> 00:42:11,225
possible before he gets cut off.
But what he's getting at here is

758
00:42:11,225 --> 00:42:11,865
important.

759
00:42:12,185 --> 00:42:15,065
When word gets out about
conditions on the inside, it can

760
00:42:15,065 --> 00:42:18,345
make things hard for the
officials who work there. Jeremy

761
00:42:18,345 --> 00:42:20,665
thinks that the bans are
partially there to stop that

762
00:42:20,665 --> 00:42:24,160
from happening. But banning
stuff from making rules is one

763
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,280
thing. The next step is the
current Trump administration

764
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,080
wants to make it physically
impossible to communicate

765
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,520
directly with the outside.

766
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,640
Jeremy Busby: Brandon Carr now
from the FCC, they're going

767
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,445
around trying to pass this new
law where they can put cell

768
00:42:38,445 --> 00:42:40,605
phone jammers up outside of
privilege.

769
00:42:40,845 --> 00:42:43,005
Dexter Thomas: Cell phone
jammers are devices that can

770
00:42:43,005 --> 00:42:46,365
block cell phone signals within
a certain range. These devices

771
00:42:46,365 --> 00:42:49,165
in general are illegal,
partially because they're

772
00:42:49,165 --> 00:42:52,045
dangerous. I mean, think about
it. If cell signals can't get

773
00:42:52,045 --> 00:42:55,170
through, you can't call the
paramedics or they can't find

774
00:42:55,170 --> 00:42:59,170
you. So obviously, the general
public can't have them.

775
00:42:59,330 --> 00:43:02,370
But for that same reason, in
general, even state and local

776
00:43:02,370 --> 00:43:06,445
law enforcement can't legally
use them. But recently, the FCC

777
00:43:06,445 --> 00:43:09,885
is considering letting prisons
use these jammers to block

778
00:43:09,885 --> 00:43:11,565
contraband cell phone use.

779
00:43:11,645 --> 00:43:13,565
Jeremy Busby: They want people
to think that people utilizing

780
00:43:13,565 --> 00:43:16,445
these phones to organize
criminal activity. And you might

781
00:43:16,445 --> 00:43:19,850
have a handful of people that
might utilize the country band

782
00:43:19,850 --> 00:43:22,890
cell phone organized criminal
activity. But from being

783
00:43:22,890 --> 00:43:25,450
incarcerated almost thirty
years, I'm a tell you that the

784
00:43:25,450 --> 00:43:28,490
majority of the people that
using country band cell phones

785
00:43:28,490 --> 00:43:32,810
are trying to connect with long
lost family members, loved ones,

786
00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:36,325
childhood friends, and other
people like myself are utilizing

787
00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:39,925
it to report on the conditions
of the prison. And then you got

788
00:43:39,925 --> 00:43:43,205
third demographic of people that
just wanna watch porn and movies

789
00:43:43,205 --> 00:43:46,005
and videos and things of that
nature. Right?

790
00:43:46,085 --> 00:43:50,010
There's very few people that
utilize the phone to organize

791
00:43:50,010 --> 00:43:54,810
criminal activity, but the
prison officials, they're that

792
00:43:54,810 --> 00:43:58,250
the person that's incarcerated
is gonna take the phone and

793
00:43:58,250 --> 00:44:01,450
expose them, and so that's the
reason why they're pushing this.

794
00:44:02,425 --> 00:44:04,745
Dexter Thomas: Despite all these
attempts to block incarcerated

795
00:44:04,745 --> 00:44:08,105
people's access to social media,
Jeremy's been able to report out

796
00:44:08,105 --> 00:44:12,665
what's going on in prison. But
when he has, he says he's been

797
00:44:12,665 --> 00:44:13,945
retaliated against.

798
00:44:14,185 --> 00:44:17,305
Jeremy Busby: The nature of my
career is when I write

799
00:44:17,305 --> 00:44:20,400
something, it don't take very
long for them to come down and

800
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,240
talk to me or try to or
intimidate or, you know, and all

801
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:28,560
of that. I'm public enemy number
one with these people. If you

802
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,000
say anything that people don't
like, they can go look through

803
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,415
your files and possibly subject
you to some type of political

804
00:44:35,415 --> 00:44:39,335
prosecution or or file a lawsuit
on you or smear your name or

805
00:44:39,415 --> 00:44:42,455
come kick in your door or or
lock you up and spray you with

806
00:44:42,455 --> 00:44:45,175
chemical agents and all that.
I've been through all of that.

807
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:49,430
But you don't have as many
people like myself that's really

808
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:52,230
speaking out against these
people because they're come

809
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:52,950
after you.

810
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:55,750
Right? They're take all of your
property. They're gonna transfer

811
00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:58,470
you to different units. They're
gonna put you in solitary

812
00:44:58,515 --> 00:45:01,315
confinement. Last year, I've
been transferred to four

813
00:45:01,315 --> 00:45:02,195
different units.

814
00:45:02,195 --> 00:45:05,395
Each time I get to the unit, I'm
spending days in the cell with

815
00:45:05,395 --> 00:45:09,235
no mattress, no sheets, no
blankets, no basic necessities

816
00:45:09,235 --> 00:45:12,435
like soap, toothpaste, and
deodorant. This is the stuff

817
00:45:12,435 --> 00:45:15,770
that you go through. And so for
the majority of the people in

818
00:45:15,770 --> 00:45:19,210
prison here, hey, man. Just put
your head down and don't say

819
00:45:19,210 --> 00:45:22,490
nothing. And they don't come
after you.

820
00:45:22,810 --> 00:45:26,010
I have never took that approach
because I understand what that

821
00:45:26,010 --> 00:45:29,450
approach does to a person. When
you put your head down for so

822
00:45:29,450 --> 00:45:33,745
many times after so many years,
that becomes an intricate part

823
00:45:33,745 --> 00:45:37,105
of your character and who you
are. And I don't wanna live like

824
00:45:37,105 --> 00:45:40,865
that. And so I resist. And I do
it in the best of manners.

825
00:45:40,865 --> 00:45:45,025
Right? I don't never write
anything ever that I don't try

826
00:45:45,025 --> 00:45:48,300
to work with administration
first on and say, here's the

827
00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,340
problem right here. I'm thinking
about writing this, but if we

828
00:45:51,340 --> 00:45:54,300
can solve this problem, will I
forget about writing it? It's

829
00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:57,660
only when they're not interested
in solving a problem that I know

830
00:45:57,660 --> 00:46:01,660
I can write and get the problem
solved. So as a result of that,

831
00:46:02,455 --> 00:46:05,895
Jeremy Busby is public enemy
number one.

832
00:46:06,455 --> 00:46:09,415
I'm the number one agitator,
whatever they wanna call me,

833
00:46:09,415 --> 00:46:12,215
but, you know, I I don't really,
you know, I don't really call it

834
00:46:12,215 --> 00:46:15,575
agitation. Right? I call it's
like good trouble, like John

835
00:46:15,575 --> 00:46:18,490
Lewis called it good trouble.
Right? This is good trouble.

836
00:46:19,930 --> 00:46:21,370
Dexter Thomas: Earlier this
year, when the Columbia

837
00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:24,730
Journalism Review asked Texas
prison officials about Jeremy's

838
00:46:24,730 --> 00:46:27,530
claims that he's being
retaliated against, they denied

839
00:46:27,530 --> 00:46:32,250
it. When we asked them, they
declined a comment. Right now,

840
00:46:32,315 --> 00:46:35,755
as we record this episode,
Jeremy's in solitary confinement

841
00:46:35,755 --> 00:46:40,395
for what he says is a response
to his reporting. More on that

842
00:46:40,475 --> 00:46:48,740
after the break. So hold on.

843
00:46:48,740 --> 00:46:51,220
Jimmy, you're in solitary right
now?

844
00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:53,780
Jeremy Busby: Yeah. I'm in
solitary confinement right now.

845
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:57,860
I'm talking to you from a
solitary confinement cell. My

846
00:46:57,860 --> 00:47:02,305
cell is about the size of your
king-size mattress. That's the

847
00:47:02,305 --> 00:47:03,985
whole size of my cell.

848
00:47:04,225 --> 00:47:07,905
I got a toilet and a sink a
steel combo right here. I got a

849
00:47:07,905 --> 00:47:11,905
desk, and I got a metal bunk
that I lay on. And I'm confined

850
00:47:11,905 --> 00:47:16,440
to this cell twenty four hours a
day. There are no windows. I

851
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,840
can't tell you if it's nighttime
or daytime.

852
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,760
The only thing that I can see is
directly in front of myself when

853
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,280
somebody walked past. It's got a
solid steel door with two

854
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,085
plexiglass windows on the front
of it and a solid steel door

855
00:47:30,085 --> 00:47:32,805
that goes all the way down to
the bottom, so I can't even

856
00:47:32,805 --> 00:47:35,525
slide anything out of the
bottom. I don't even have any

857
00:47:35,525 --> 00:47:39,445
communication with anybody
except for the guard. So it's

858
00:47:39,445 --> 00:47:41,765
mentally crippling, and
everybody understands that it's

859
00:47:41,765 --> 00:47:44,720
mentally crippling because it
cuts you all the way off from

860
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:46,240
human to human contact.

861
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:48,960
Dexter Thomas: If you remember
our episode on tablets in

862
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,680
prison, Jeremy says that they
were recently given one of those

863
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,880
state issued tablet devices that
lets them watch religious and

864
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,805
educational programming. And
from 2PM to 8PM daily, he can

865
00:47:58,805 --> 00:48:02,645
pay to make phone calls if it's
to a number that has registered

866
00:48:02,645 --> 00:48:06,085
to receive a call from the
prison. How long you been in

867
00:48:06,085 --> 00:48:06,405
there?

868
00:48:06,405 --> 00:48:09,765
Jeremy Busby: I've been in
Sanitary confinement since June

869
00:48:09,765 --> 00:48:10,805
2024.

870
00:48:11,490 --> 00:48:12,770
Dexter Thomas: Over a year?

871
00:48:13,250 --> 00:48:16,770
Jeremy Busby: Over a year. No
disciplinary cases. Nothing. The

872
00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:19,970
guards always ask me all the
time, hey, man. Why they got you

873
00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:21,170
in here buzzed me?

874
00:48:21,250 --> 00:48:23,970
And I tell them just Google me.
And then they come back and say,

875
00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:27,085
okay. I know why they got you in
here. Right? Then I even had a

876
00:48:27,165 --> 00:48:28,685
have someone come to me say,
hey, man.

877
00:48:28,685 --> 00:48:31,165
Won't you just quit being a
journalist so they can let you

878
00:48:31,165 --> 00:48:35,085
out of here? And I'm like, you
know, there's certain trade offs

879
00:48:35,085 --> 00:48:39,200
that I'm just not willing to
make. Right? And these people,

880
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,320
they they continue to try to
harass me and police and, you

881
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,440
know, do a lot of things that
they do because of of my

882
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,320
journalism then, hey. That's
just to hear that I'm a down.

883
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,925
Right? That's to hear that I'm
down. Because I didn't have very

884
00:48:51,925 --> 00:48:54,325
much Dexter when I came to
prison. You know, I grew up. My

885
00:48:54,325 --> 00:48:56,325
mom I lost my mom when I was
four.

886
00:48:56,405 --> 00:48:58,885
My dad has always been a
deadbeat. I dropped out of

887
00:48:58,885 --> 00:49:01,845
school when I was eight, and I
was running the streets and all

888
00:49:01,845 --> 00:49:04,885
of that. And so all of the
meaningful things that I was

889
00:49:04,885 --> 00:49:09,110
able to obtain for myself during
my incarceration, I'll be damned

890
00:49:09,110 --> 00:49:11,190
if I'm a give that back to
anybody.

891
00:49:12,070 --> 00:49:18,070
Dexter Thomas: You were talking
about the Was somebody knocking

892
00:49:18,070 --> 00:49:18,790
back there?

893
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:19,910
Jeremy Busby: Hey. No. I ain't
got it.

894
00:49:20,185 --> 00:49:22,265
Dexter Thomas: So in the middle
of our interview, we were

895
00:49:22,265 --> 00:49:25,545
interrupted by a guard knocking
on Jeremy Seldor.

896
00:49:25,545 --> 00:49:29,465
Jeremy Busby: Hey. Hey. Look
out. Hold on. Shut up, screaming

897
00:49:29,465 --> 00:49:29,945
for a minute.

898
00:49:29,945 --> 00:49:32,585
Hey, man. I wish you would quit
doing that. I'm on the

899
00:49:32,585 --> 00:49:36,560
telephone. I asked you I asked
you to quit doing that, but I'm

900
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,080
on the telephone. You what?

901
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,640
I asked you to quit beating on
the door because I'm on the

902
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,760
telephone. You're in the rest of
my telephone call. I asked you

903
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,640
that privilege. That's the fifth
time you did that today, and I

904
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,845
asked you to quit doing that. I
I know you didn't get that the

905
00:49:49,845 --> 00:49:50,245
time.

906
00:49:50,245 --> 00:49:57,125
Okay. I'm stupid. I'm sorry
about that. Now you got you got

907
00:49:57,125 --> 00:50:00,725
some officers that he's sitting
here, he's shit as long as the

908
00:50:00,725 --> 00:50:03,125
phone, so he just gonna come and
just beat on the door, beat on

909
00:50:03,125 --> 00:50:05,900
the door, beat on the door. But
anyway, I'm sorry about that.

910
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:08,780
Dexter Thomas: It's all good.
It's all good, man. Who was

911
00:50:08,780 --> 00:50:10,700
that? What happened just now?

912
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:13,740
Jeremy Busby: That's a guard.
No. He's a guard. Right? What

913
00:50:13,740 --> 00:50:17,645
they do is they come by every
five, ten, fifteen minutes and

914
00:50:17,645 --> 00:50:20,285
just beat on the door with the
bar thing that they got.

915
00:50:20,285 --> 00:50:24,605
He done that times today. He's
trying to antagonize me. He's

916
00:50:24,605 --> 00:50:27,565
trying to get the reaction that
he just got to know that he's

917
00:50:27,565 --> 00:50:31,250
getting up under my skin. They
do stuff like that. And so but I

918
00:50:31,250 --> 00:50:34,770
talked to him politely, you
know, first couple of times.

919
00:50:34,770 --> 00:50:38,370
I say, hey, sir. If you don't
mind, and you come to the door,

920
00:50:38,370 --> 00:50:41,970
you can see me in the door, my
light is on. I'm moving around

921
00:50:41,970 --> 00:50:46,455
in my cell. Why do you feel like
you have to beat on the door for

922
00:50:46,455 --> 00:50:49,335
five minutes? He has a language
barrier.

923
00:50:49,335 --> 00:50:52,775
His English is not very good.
And so he came back and did it

924
00:50:52,775 --> 00:50:55,255
again. And I said, hey, man. Do
you understand you disturb

925
00:50:55,255 --> 00:50:58,530
people's peace when you're doing
all of this? But, anyway, so

926
00:50:58,530 --> 00:50:59,250
here it is.

927
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:03,650
He came to work at 07:00 this
morning. It's 03:00, and this is

928
00:51:03,650 --> 00:51:06,850
the fifth time that he's been to
my cell and done this crap.

929
00:51:06,850 --> 00:51:07,890
Dexter Thomas: Oh my gosh.

930
00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:09,650
Jeremy Busby: I'm sorry about
that Dexter, Rick.

931
00:51:09,650 --> 00:51:12,130
Dexter Thomas: No. You don't got
to apologize to me.

932
00:51:12,130 --> 00:51:12,530
Jeremy Busby: Alright.

933
00:51:13,985 --> 00:51:16,305
Dexter Thomas: Hearing what
Jeremy has to go through just to

934
00:51:16,305 --> 00:51:20,545
survive is a lot. I can't
imagine what it's like to be

935
00:51:20,545 --> 00:51:23,585
doing journalistic reporting.
And then on top of that

936
00:51:24,305 --> 00:51:27,780
Jeremy Busby: We did a no kings
protest real quick. So I don't

937
00:51:27,780 --> 00:51:30,100
have to deny the No Kings
protest. Right?

938
00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:33,060
Dexter Thomas: You know Jeremy,
you organized a No Kings protest

939
00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:33,700
in there?

940
00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:40,295
Jeremy Busby: Hell yeah. Hell
yeah. Jeremy. Hey, man. This

941
00:51:40,295 --> 00:51:41,735
this stuff is serious, bro.

942
00:51:41,735 --> 00:51:44,455
I'm a tell you how I organize
it. Okay? Because I like the

943
00:51:44,455 --> 00:51:47,415
dudes that's down the road from
me, he sent me a letter and

944
00:51:47,415 --> 00:51:51,335
telling me that his niece came
home and her mom and her dad had

945
00:51:51,335 --> 00:51:55,175
been picked up by ice. No. So
his niece came home from school

946
00:51:55,630 --> 00:51:57,230
and her parents was gone.

947
00:51:57,470 --> 00:52:01,070
Then I got this other guy. He's
telling me about how his mom

948
00:52:01,070 --> 00:52:04,590
been working for the federal
government in Houston at NASA

949
00:52:04,670 --> 00:52:07,550
for all of these years and the
government shutdown then

950
00:52:07,550 --> 00:52:10,905
furloughed her. Right? So she's
not able to send any money for

951
00:52:10,905 --> 00:52:14,105
his commissary and put money on
his phone. So when I got

952
00:52:14,105 --> 00:52:16,585
thinking about all of this, I'm
telling all of these dudes over

953
00:52:16,585 --> 00:52:18,345
here where I'm at, like, hey,
man.

954
00:52:18,505 --> 00:52:21,750
This thing that Trump got going
on is affecting all of us. And

955
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:25,190
we need to protest and stand in
solidarity with the people on

956
00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:29,350
our side. Okay, Jeremy, what you
got in mind? Okay. Listen.

957
00:52:29,350 --> 00:52:32,550
For this Saturday, we're gonna
not accept our food. If anybody

958
00:52:32,550 --> 00:52:35,695
need food, let me know. I'll
send you some food to eat, And

959
00:52:35,695 --> 00:52:41,535
we're put signs on our door that
say no food, no talk, no keys.

960
00:52:41,535 --> 00:52:42,255
Dexter Thomas: Wow.

961
00:52:42,655 --> 00:52:43,615
Jeremy Busby: We did that.

962
00:52:43,695 --> 00:52:44,815
Dexter Thomas: Oh my gosh.

963
00:52:45,055 --> 00:52:49,055
Jeremy Busby: So it was peaceful
all the way up to about 08:00 at

964
00:52:49,055 --> 00:52:53,540
night. They wanted the guys that
we recruited. He's not all the

965
00:52:53,540 --> 00:52:57,620
way there. And so he started
talking like, you know, man,

966
00:52:57,620 --> 00:52:59,460
damn. Just deny my food.

967
00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:02,020
I'm ready to split it off. So he
said there's, like, three alarm

968
00:53:02,020 --> 00:53:05,245
fire in his cell. Right? And
this other guy manipulated the

969
00:53:05,245 --> 00:53:08,365
lock on his cell, and he bust
out the cell and just started

970
00:53:08,365 --> 00:53:11,085
ripping the TVs off the wall.
But what I'm showing you is

971
00:53:11,085 --> 00:53:11,485
this.

972
00:53:11,485 --> 00:53:14,445
Okay. These guys the guy that
ripped the TV off the wall, that

973
00:53:14,445 --> 00:53:18,570
don't hurt the prison officials.
Those TVs are for us. And so now

974
00:53:18,570 --> 00:53:21,290
all the TVs that you'd have
ripped off, people can't watch

975
00:53:21,290 --> 00:53:23,930
the news or whatever it is that
they wanna watch. You're hurting

976
00:53:23,930 --> 00:53:24,730
the whole community.

977
00:53:24,730 --> 00:53:28,330
It it it they just tells you the
mental deficiency that most

978
00:53:28,410 --> 00:53:31,605
majority of the people could
have and it's not mild.

979
00:53:31,605 --> 00:53:32,085
According

980
00:53:34,165 --> 00:53:36,405
Dexter Thomas: to Jeremy, the
conditions of the system only

981
00:53:36,405 --> 00:53:39,765
exacerbate the problems that he
sees in prison. Along with

982
00:53:39,765 --> 00:53:42,965
mental illness, he says that the
prison system in Texas suffers

983
00:53:42,965 --> 00:53:46,740
from problems with violence,
drugs, and suicides. And to him,

984
00:53:46,980 --> 00:53:50,020
these problems and the social
media bans that they wanna put

985
00:53:50,020 --> 00:53:52,420
in place, it's all related.

986
00:53:53,060 --> 00:53:55,940
Jeremy Busby: It always been my
position that when you destroy

987
00:53:55,940 --> 00:53:59,935
family bonds and make it
impossible for the families to

988
00:53:59,935 --> 00:54:03,855
communicate, then that puts the
person in bad situation. And

989
00:54:03,855 --> 00:54:06,895
sometimes, in order to get out
of that situation because of

990
00:54:06,895 --> 00:54:11,410
what's going on in prison, you
have to turn the door. My whole

991
00:54:11,410 --> 00:54:14,690
thesis is, like, instead of
putting money into further

992
00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:18,210
destroying family ties, as far
as taking people's own

993
00:54:18,210 --> 00:54:21,090
privileges away, and putting
them in a position to where they

994
00:54:21,090 --> 00:54:24,690
can become more depressed and
become more mentally disturbed

995
00:54:24,875 --> 00:54:28,555
to where they have to increase
their drug usage. Let's take

996
00:54:28,555 --> 00:54:32,395
that same energy, those same
resources, that same money as

997
00:54:32,475 --> 00:54:35,435
let's put it towards trying to
repair family bonds. Let's put

998
00:54:35,435 --> 00:54:38,830
it towards trying to help people
accumulate meaningful things

999
00:54:38,830 --> 00:54:40,990
like so they can receive
substance use.

1000
00:54:41,150 --> 00:54:43,150
Let's put it towards like
putting people through

1001
00:54:43,150 --> 00:54:44,270
rehabilitation.

1002
00:54:45,310 --> 00:54:47,710
Dexter Thomas: I'm just gonna
say this as a journalist who's

1003
00:54:47,710 --> 00:54:52,190
reported on prisons. I would
never be able to bring you this

1004
00:54:52,190 --> 00:54:55,335
kind of insight. Jeremy's work
provides something that's really

1005
00:54:55,335 --> 00:54:59,335
rare. It's a look at what's
actually happening inside this

1006
00:54:59,335 --> 00:55:03,255
prison. But also, his work isn't
just on behalf of the

1007
00:55:03,255 --> 00:55:04,215
incarcerated people.

1008
00:55:05,670 --> 00:55:09,190
There's one of your pieces that
I was reading earlier today, and

1009
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:12,550
it was an article, this is for
the Chronicle. I wanna quote you

1010
00:55:12,550 --> 00:55:16,550
here. You said, for nearly three
decades, I've watched this

1011
00:55:16,550 --> 00:55:20,310
broken system break people, both
staff and the incarcerated.

1012
00:55:20,695 --> 00:55:23,335
Instead of returning prisoners
back to their communities a

1013
00:55:23,335 --> 00:55:26,455
better version of themselves,
prisons return them more

1014
00:55:26,455 --> 00:55:29,895
psychologically damaged,
disenfranchised, and poor than

1015
00:55:29,895 --> 00:55:32,615
when they entered. I've seen
staff members lose their

1016
00:55:32,615 --> 00:55:36,170
families, their drive to
succeed, and even with suicide,

1017
00:55:36,170 --> 00:55:36,970
their lives.

1018
00:55:37,450 --> 00:55:41,450
I think people might be
surprised to hear that you're

1019
00:55:41,450 --> 00:55:45,610
also advocating for staff
members, for the guards.

1020
00:55:45,850 --> 00:55:46,490
Jeremy Busby: Yeah.

1021
00:55:46,650 --> 00:55:48,330
Dexter Thomas: Like the person
who just came by and beat on

1022
00:55:48,330 --> 00:55:48,730
your door.

1023
00:55:49,955 --> 00:55:52,915
Jeremy Busby: Yeah. And that
comes from my mentor is a

1024
00:55:52,915 --> 00:55:57,075
retired senior warden, Vernon
Pitman. And one of the things

1025
00:55:57,075 --> 00:55:59,875
that Warren Pitman taught me
about is that, hey, listen,

1026
00:55:59,875 --> 00:56:02,755
gentlemen, we all are human
beings, whether if you made a

1027
00:56:02,755 --> 00:56:06,000
mistake and you in prison or if
you made a mistake and you

1028
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,400
worked for the prison, because
everybody that worked for the

1029
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,080
prison, they made a mistake. The
people that work in prison and

1030
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,800
the people that are in prison
all come from the same

1031
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,855
socioeconomic demographics. The
majority of them either made it

1032
00:56:18,855 --> 00:56:21,495
through high school and went to
the military and couldn't make

1033
00:56:21,495 --> 00:56:21,975
it.

1034
00:56:22,055 --> 00:56:24,775
Some of them dropped out of high
school and got their GED and

1035
00:56:24,775 --> 00:56:27,495
started working at a low local
fast food restaurant or

1036
00:56:27,495 --> 00:56:32,130
something. But it's very few
people inside a prison that has

1037
00:56:32,130 --> 00:56:35,890
a college degree that works
here. Very few people.

1038
00:56:35,890 --> 00:56:38,210
Dexter Thomas: I mean, it it
really could be people who would

1039
00:56:38,210 --> 00:56:40,610
have been neighbors otherwise,
and I guess they're neighbors

1040
00:56:40,610 --> 00:56:41,170
now.

1041
00:56:41,170 --> 00:56:42,690
Jeremy Busby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Of course they're neighbors.

1042
00:56:42,690 --> 00:56:43,650
They of course they're
neighbors.

1043
00:56:43,650 --> 00:56:45,810
And I'm telling y'all, let's
just say this. The people that

1044
00:56:45,810 --> 00:56:48,425
work here are not the brightest
people that you're find on

1045
00:56:48,425 --> 00:56:52,665
earth. So they easily manipulate
it. And the same deficiencies

1046
00:56:52,665 --> 00:56:55,465
that I came to prison with,
which is a lack of coping

1047
00:56:55,465 --> 00:57:00,105
skills, no conflict resolution,
no constructive decision making

1048
00:57:00,105 --> 00:57:03,570
processes, or any of that. The
same things that I came to

1049
00:57:03,570 --> 00:57:06,210
prison with the majority of
these guards worked in the

1050
00:57:06,210 --> 00:57:08,290
prison with those same
deficiencies.

1051
00:57:09,170 --> 00:57:12,290
Dexter Thomas: I gotta ask you
this. Are you concerned about

1052
00:57:12,290 --> 00:57:13,090
talking to me about this?

1053
00:57:13,625 --> 00:57:15,305
Jeremy Busby: No. No. No. No.
No.

1054
00:57:15,305 --> 00:57:18,905
Because I talk about this every
chance that I get. None of this

1055
00:57:18,905 --> 00:57:22,345
is any secret. These people know
what's going on. These people

1056
00:57:22,345 --> 00:57:26,185
done so much to me. There's
nothing else that they can do.

1057
00:57:26,185 --> 00:57:28,985
I'm not worried about them
killing me physically. Right?

1058
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,320
There's nothing else that they
can do to me for my journalism

1059
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,640
that haven't already been done.

1060
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,200
Dexter Thomas: So my
conversation with Jeremy had me

1061
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,600
thinking about another
conversation I had a few months

1062
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,935
ago with Gabby Kaplan. She's the
journalist who's reported on the

1063
00:57:46,935 --> 00:57:49,975
tablets that have been issued in
prisons across the country and

1064
00:57:49,975 --> 00:57:52,775
the federal government's efforts
to limit the communication

1065
00:57:52,775 --> 00:57:56,295
abilities on those tablets. If
you haven't heard that episode

1066
00:57:56,295 --> 00:57:59,200
yet, definitely check it I'll
leave a link in the show notes.

1067
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,440
But if you look at the comments
online about her reporting, you

1068
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,160
might see people arguing that,
well, if you're in prison,

1069
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,520
having a tablet or social media
is a luxury. You shouldn't be

1070
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,360
able to have that kind of luxury
period.

1071
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,135
Okay. That's an opinion. But I
can read you an argument that

1072
00:58:16,135 --> 00:58:19,255
Jeremy Busby himself wrote in a
recent article, and I'm just

1073
00:58:19,255 --> 00:58:22,375
gonna quote him here.
Regulations that rob

1074
00:58:22,375 --> 00:58:26,510
incarcerated individuals of the
ability to expose cruelties and

1075
00:58:26,510 --> 00:58:29,870
human rights violations and hold
prison officials accountable

1076
00:58:29,870 --> 00:58:33,790
hurt more people and cause more
negative societal consequences

1077
00:58:33,790 --> 00:58:37,470
than they prevent. Just ask
those whose lives were saved or

1078
00:58:37,470 --> 00:58:40,665
drastically improved by
reporting only made possible

1079
00:58:40,665 --> 00:58:43,225
with the use of contraband cell
phones.

1080
00:58:43,465 --> 00:58:47,945
And then he closes that article
with a request. Quote, give

1081
00:58:47,945 --> 00:58:52,500
journalists meaningful access
records. Give incarcerated

1082
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:55,540
people the tools to communicate
with the outside world and

1083
00:58:55,540 --> 00:58:59,380
document abuses without
censorship and retaliation, and

1084
00:58:59,380 --> 00:59:03,620
I'll never use a contraband cell
phone again. Or better yet,

1085
00:59:03,995 --> 00:59:12,955
don't commit those abuses at
all, end quote. Special thanks

1086
00:59:12,955 --> 00:59:15,515
this week to the Freedom of the
Press Foundation and to the

1087
00:59:15,515 --> 00:59:18,260
Never Post podcast who
introduced us to Jeremy and

1088
00:59:18,260 --> 00:59:20,500
helped make this whole episode
possible.

1089
00:59:22,740 --> 00:59:25,860
And thank you once again for
listening to Kill Switch. Kill

1090
00:59:25,860 --> 00:59:29,300
Switch is hosted by me, Dexter
Thomas. It's produced by Sheena

1091
00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:33,755
Ozaki, Darlauk Potts, and Julian
Nutter. Our theme song is by me

1092
00:59:33,755 --> 00:59:37,115
and Kyle Murdock, and Kyle also
mixed the show. From

1093
00:59:37,115 --> 00:59:40,075
Kaleidoscope, our executive
producers are Osvalashin,

1094
00:59:40,075 --> 00:59:42,715
Mangesh Hadigador, and Kate
Osborne.

1095
00:59:42,715 --> 00:59:45,515
From iHeart, our executive
producers are Katrina Norville

1096
00:59:45,515 --> 00:59:46,715
and Nikki Itur.

1097
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,840
Jeremy Busby: Thank you for
using Securus. Goodbye.

1098
01:00:09,915 --> 01:00:12,635
Mike Rugnetta: That is the show
we have for you this week. We're

1099
01:00:12,635 --> 01:00:16,680
gonna be back here in the main
feed once more in 2025 and when

1100
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:21,160
we are, it will be with the
return of Never Posts Post

1101
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:25,480
Mortem. That's right folks. Post
Mortem 2025, your favorite year

1102
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,880
end Internet themed game show
returns. So keep an eye on your

1103
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,505
feed that will show up at some
point before the end of the

1104
01:00:33,505 --> 01:00:33,985
year.

1105
01:00:34,865 --> 01:00:39,985
Folks, Neverpost is currently
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1106
01:00:39,985 --> 01:00:43,585
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1107
01:00:43,585 --> 01:00:47,690
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That's right. All levels of

1108
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1110
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1112
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Neverpost's producers are Audrey

1114
01:01:13,925 --> 01:01:16,405
Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the
mysterious, doctor first name,

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last name. Our senior producer
is Hans Buto. Our executive

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01:01:19,420 --> 01:01:23,100
producer is Jason Oberholzer,
and the show's host, that's me,

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is Mike McNetta.

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01:01:24,460 --> 01:01:26,060
Oh, hold on. I gotta go find a
poem.

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01:01:28,875 --> 01:01:46,620
Will Tuttle. Bill Tuttle? Here
we go.

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01:01:48,220 --> 01:01:51,900
This is too much to carry, he
thought. I've ascertained how

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01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:56,060
far our minds made up. Drift
like a crow now or a gorge or a

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01:01:56,060 --> 01:02:00,865
braid. So like slow water,
depending on rain, depending on

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01:02:00,865 --> 01:02:04,225
ice declines the slope,
distributing what verse gets,

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01:02:04,225 --> 01:02:07,105
what talk, whose motion, of
whose hand, what pressure, what

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01:02:07,105 --> 01:02:11,080
tensile, what upholds. The
center stuck out like a sick

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01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,160
thumb on what the hard map
depends, the going price

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01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:16,440
eventualities.

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01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,880
The entry said be careful.
Scattered walls of the wrecked

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01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,720
city would soon come into view.
To him returned, a car rests on

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01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,625
wet sand. Read it inside many
times before it actually came to

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01:02:27,625 --> 01:02:31,065
pass. In the very middle of
resting, of approaching, just

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01:02:31,065 --> 01:02:31,785
being there.

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01:02:31,785 --> 01:02:35,385
Certainly, one of those things
that would come to pass. His

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01:02:35,385 --> 01:02:41,780
hand bends to greet you. Excerpt
of a map folded by Bill Tuttle.

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01:02:43,540 --> 01:02:46,020
Never Post is a production of
charts and leisure and it's

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01:02:46,020 --> 01:02:48,020
distributed by Radiotopia.