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Georgia Hampton: Hey, everybody.
It's producer Georgia. This

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week, we're bringing you an
archive pull from the Never Post

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Vault, and we're pulling my
first ever segment from the

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first ever episode of the show.
In it, I talked to professor

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Elizabeth Wissinger about how
the rise of algorithmic online

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social platforms helped erase an
entire demographic Fashion for

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Girls, upheld by brands such as
Limited Too and Delia's. Now,

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girls aged nine to 12 don't have
a style curated specifically for

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them.

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Instead, they dress like their
moms. When I first wrote this

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segment two years ago, micro
trends and aesthetics were at

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their zenith. The latest styles
cannibalized each other in a

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matter of weeks, and they had
nothing to do with how old you

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were. If you wanted to dress
like an office siren, a mob

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wife, or anything that could
have core attached to the end of

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it, you could find a mood board
that would get you there. But

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now micro trends have kind of
gone out of style.

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I don't see the videos I used to
see, where once a month, someone

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would proudly declare that a new
trend was on the horizon. In

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some ways, we've moved back to
the more old school forms of

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trend predicting, where
individual types of clothing or

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accessories are pointed to as
the next big thing. Every year

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has an it shoe or an it bag.
Now, more than anything, the

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sign of good style has more to
do with how many hours you're

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willing to spend at the thrift
or scrolling through Depop. But

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on Depop, someone my age, 32, is
much more likely to try to buy a

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pair of now vintage shoes from
Delia's than anyone else.

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So has this shift away from the
carousel of trends made space

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for the tween girl demographic
to begin again? Not really. The

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closest thing to a tween
centered style I've seen lately

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isn't even being worn by real
kids. It's being sported by

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American Girl Dolls. This year,
to mark the fortieth anniversary

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of the brand, American Girl
debuted a modern era version of

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their original six historical
dolls.

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These girls have ditched their
petticoats and nineteenth

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century lace up shoes for polka
dot dresses and white sneakers.

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Sneakers. My favorite doll,
Josefina, whose story originally

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took place in 1824, no longer
wears her signature shawl and

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big red skirt. Now, she wears a
white button down, a red

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miniskirt, and little white
cowboy boots with flowers on

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them. She has a tiny leather
shoulder bag.

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And in another fashion
landscape, these dolls could be

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a great representation of what
Tween fashion looks like,

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if it still existed.

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But instead, modern day Josefina
just kind of looks like she's

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wearing a costume. And while
young girls might reach for her,

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tweens aren't really playing
with dolls. They're online. Even

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after the empire of cottagecore
rose and fell, the social

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internet still has the last say
about how fashion trends spread

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to the masses. And tween fashion
as a demographic shows no sign

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of returning.

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Kevin: Okay. Alright. So I'm
just gonna ask you about what

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you were talking about the other
night. So tell me about that,

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about how some of the kids at
your school dressed.

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Speaker 4: Okay. A lot of the
girls in my grade dress just

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like their moms is what I found.
They all dress like, I don't

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mean this as an insult. If I
could live this life, I would,

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but, kinda like a stay at home
mom who runs errands all day and

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goes to the gym whenever she can
because both the girls at my

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school and their moms always
wear Lululemon.

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Georgia Hampton: That's a
conversation between a friend of

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the show, Kevin, and his
daughter, who's 13 years old.

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And what she's talking about
here is this strange thing that

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seems to be happening.

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Speaker 4: It's like sometimes
I'll, like, see an older woman

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from behind and I'll be like, is
that like so and so from my

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school? No. That is somebody
that could be their mom.

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Georgia Hampton: That just feels
so weird to me. And listen, I'm

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30 years old. This is a world
I'm not a part of anymore. But

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when I was 13, it would have
been mortifying to dress like

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your mom. It would also be
extremely bizarre.

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I'm imagining myself arriving at
school in a pair of black

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stretchy capris with a loose
knit leopard print sweater and

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perhaps a decorative beaded
necklace, like just showing up

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to eighth grade history class in
h to t Chico's, it's

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unimaginable. When I was in that
nine to twelve tween age bracket

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back in the mid two thousands, I
had my own ecosystem of fashion

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that felt like it was made
specifically for me, and that's

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because it was. Limited Too,
Claire's, Justice, Libby Lou, a

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whole suite of brands whose
thing was making clothes and

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accessories for young girls like
me, or frankly, making an entire

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space for young girls. And over
the last ten years or so, pretty

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much all of those places
disappeared. And I wondered if

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that had anything to do with
what I and Kevin's daughter have

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noticed happening.

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Georgia Hampton: I wanna paint
you a picture. The inside of a

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limited two was this color
coded, candy scented, fantasy

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world for girls. Everything was
blue and green or pink and

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orange. The store had a huge
light up pink daisy on the

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ceiling and the carpet was this
super bright barney shade of

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purple. Over by the register,
you could buy push pops or baby

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bottle pops or bubble tape.

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Famously, you could get your
ears pierced, which I did. And

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limited to was just one of a
bunch of places that looked like

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this. Growing up, there was even
a tween home goods store called

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Dry Ice at the mall near me,
available for all my beaded

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curtain, lava lamp, blow up pink
lounge chair needs. That's what

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made all these brands different.
They created a tween look, a

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tween demographic.

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Everything there was funky
without being offensive or cool

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in the eyes of an 11 year old,
but not like dangerously cool.

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This wasn't Hot Topic or God
forbid Spencer's gifts. Nothing

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at limited two would get you
sent to the principal's office.

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It was p g rated fashion. But
now obviously, things are very

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different.

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Limited two left the mall in
2010. Libby Lou declared

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bankruptcy, then Claire's, then
Justice. And that was it. No

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other stores stepped in to take
the daisy clad hot pink plastic

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blow up throne of tween fashion.
Like I said, I'm not a tween.

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But even I noticed this. And a
lot of other people did too,

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especially on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: The 10 year olds have
nowhere to go. They know where

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to go.

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Speaker 6: There seems to no
longer be a market for

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specifically preteen and teenage
gals. Everybody keeps talking

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about how it's 10 and 12 year
olds in Sephora and Ulta, but

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they're not talking about how
there's no tween stage of life

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anymore. Once you turn, like,
10, 11, 12, you start jumping

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and doing stuff like you do,
like, at 17, 18 because there's

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no gap in between because
everybody forgot about the fact

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that kids are children even as
teenagers. Nowhere to go.

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Georgia Hampton: What this tells
me is that when it comes to

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fashion, the tween demographic
isn't really important to brands

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anymore. So what is?

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Elizabeth Wissinger: My name is
professor Elizabeth Wissinger. I

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am a professor of sociology at
the CUNY Community College of

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Borough Manhattan Community
College, BMCC. I am a professor

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of liberal studies with a
concentration in fashion studies

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at the CUNY Graduate Center of
the City University of New York.

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And I am really interested in
how technologies and bodies

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interact in ways that affect
society over time.

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Georgia Hampton: I talked with
professor Wissinger to

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understand what had taken the
place of the quote, unquote,

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Tween brand. And perhaps
unsurprisingly, there's a lot

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going on here, and there's a lot
of factors at play. But

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according to professor
Wissinger, it all starts with

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the rise of the social Internet.
Before we had Twitter and TikTok

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and Instagram, changes in
fashion were dictated by a very

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small, very specific set of
gatekeepers.

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Elizabeth Wissinger: You had to
be an editor at a fashion

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magazine, or you had to be
somebody photographed in a

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street style blog. And prior to
blogs, you had to be a fashion

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model or somebody who was going
to the shows who might be

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photographed outside the tents
or or a socialite.

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Georgia Hampton: This meant that
the pool of people making

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decisions was small. And then
with the social Internet, that

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power started to shift. You
weren't only looking at

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magazines, you were looking at
people online, on Instagram or

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YouTube or more recently TikTok,
especially TikTok.

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Elizabeth Wissinger: Get ready
with me for my Barbie shoot.

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Speaker 4: Get ready with me for
picture day.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to a day in
my life as a full time content

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creator. I woke up this morning
and got ready just threw on a

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cute little tracksuit, made my
bed.

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Speaker 4: What to wear when you
don't know

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Elizabeth Wissinger: what to
wear. So first, we need

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concealer. The opportunity to
create an online presence for

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yourself, market yourself,
become a brand in and of

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yourself became an option. But
brands always have associations.

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They don't have any meaning
unless they're connected to

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other brands out there in the
brand universe.

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So when you're doing self
branding, you are using the

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tools of branding to present a
persona that will gain you

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notoriety or fame or acclaim.

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Georgia Hampton: So if you have
a phone and an Internet

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connection, you could, in
theory, start establishing

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yourself as a tastemaker.
Someone to be taken seriously, a

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person with special and unique
ideas about fashion. You can

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build your own little island
around yourself as a voice worth

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listening to. You can do it.
Anyone can do it.

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Everyone can do it. But that
comes with its own problem.

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Elizabeth Wissinger: A lot of
individual voices create kind of

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like a cacophony that ends up
sort of blending into just one

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loud sound, and it so flattens
out the individual inflection of

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individualized personalities in
terms of how the public

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interprets them.

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Georgia Hampton: It's this
shaving down of nuance. Everyone

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is an individual online, but
because everyone is unique, no

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one is. It's a weird tension
between wanting to be special

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and different, but also
attractive to a lot of people.

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Elizabeth Wissinger: It's like
you wanna appeal to the masses

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with your individuality, which
has been the conundrum of being

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fashionable since the beginning
of fashion. But now it's, like,

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on steroids with the fact that
everyone can be a fashion

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influencer if they use these
tools.

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Georgia Hampton: What matters
here is bridging that gap

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between uniqueness and
accessibility. A fashion trend

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should be interesting, which
means it should have something

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new to say or a new take on an
old idea. But you don't wanna

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limit your potential audience.
And declaring any given trend as

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a tween style just doesn't seem
to make sense anymore. Or as

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professor Wissinger put

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Elizabeth Wissinger: it It seems
that it's less lucrative to to

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limit your marketing to a
specific age group now than it

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was then. So if you're a teen
and you're showing how to

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construct a look, if you wanna
go viral with your post, you

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don't wanna post, this look is
for teens. You want everybody

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interested in your look. And if
you're an older, more mature

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influencer, you're not gonna
say, well, these outfits are

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only good for 50 and older. You
may go in as a mature influencer

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and say, look, I can look like
this as a 50 and older, but

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really, you can learn from my
look no matter what age you are.

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Georgia Hampton: That's why you
get 13 year olds dressing like

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they're athleisure moms. Because
the marketing is for as many

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people as possible. Age specific
trends just don't matter in the

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way they might have in the two
thousands. What does matter is

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having trends that are appealing
and interesting to the widest

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margin of people regardless of
how old they are. So for a girl

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aged 10 to 12, the question is
no longer what does a tween girl

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my age dress like?

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It's just who do you wanna be?
It's more about an aesthetic

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than anything else. You can be
goblin core if you're into

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collecting little trinkets and
wearing brown and green, or

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maybe you're a coastal grandma,
which means you basically dress

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how Diane Keaton currently
dresses, turtlenecks and lots of

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linen. Whatever hyper specific
niche you're looking for,

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there's a mood board for it. The
point is that you're the

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tastemaker of your specific
individual style.

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Well, you and your algorithm.

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Elizabeth Wissinger: I mean,
there are suites of products

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that people are identified with
in terms of the algorithms that

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look at, like, where you shop,
when you shop, how you shop,

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what you buy. Like, all of the
that information is being

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processed all the time. So the
Lululemon people, the kids and

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the moms might be just inside a
very narrowly defined

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algorithmic space that markets
very specifically to that income

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bracket, geographic location,
that ZIP code, that private

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school.

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Georgia Hampton: Okay. So
instead of your age mattering in

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regards to fashion trends, it's
more about where the algorithm

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can place you geographically,
sure, but also monetarily, your

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race, your aesthetic interests,
a whole host of other

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signifiers, but not necessarily
your age. So instead of limited

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to existing as a tween only
space, you have trends that are

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catering to a specific vibe, a
specific corner of the

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algorithmic space that the
machine brain of the Internet

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has placed you into based on
your measurable qualities. But

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that has its limits. Sure, the
algorithm can give you this

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extremely curated experience
that is handpicked for you

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specifically.

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But if there's just more of a
certain kind of content and it

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becomes inescapable, the more
you interact with it, the more

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the algorithm thinks you like
it, rinse and repeat forever. To

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put it another way, those kids
Kevin's daughter was talking

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about, like, I'm sure their
TikTok for you page looks

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different than mine, but it
might not look different from

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other women my age who might, I
don't know, be into athleisure

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in a major way.

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Speaker 4: I, like, was
scrolling on TikTok, and I see,

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like, like, this girl dancing
and then her mom. And they're

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wearing almost identical
outfits, but one was blue and

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the other one was pink. They
looked the same, but one was

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like twenty years older. I was
kinda like, wow.

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Mike Rugnetta: This is real. I
don't know.

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Georgia Hampton: Thanks to Kevin
and his daughter for sharing

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00:16:38,950 --> 00:16:42,710
their thoughts and thanks to
professor Elizabeth Wissinger

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for her fascinating insight on
all of this. You can read more

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00:16:46,955 --> 00:16:51,595
of her work online and in her
book, This Year's Model Fashion,

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00:16:51,595 --> 00:16:55,515
Media, and the Making of
Glamour. There's also a part of

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00:16:55,515 --> 00:16:58,510
this story that didn't make it
into the episode because I'm

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kind of still parsing through
it. Basically, I think there's

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something really wonderful about
kids being able to create their

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own fashion identity in this
super individual way. But I also

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think it's weird that middle
school girls are being mistaken

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for their own parents based on
the way they dress.

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And I want to hear what you
think about this. How does this

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00:17:21,185 --> 00:17:24,740
strike you? How does it make you
feel? Call us and leave us a

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00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:27,140
voicemail. Send us a voice memo.

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00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:30,340
Write us an email. All of the
ways you can get a hold of us

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00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:31,540
are down in the show notes.

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00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:02,610
Mike Rugnetta: That is the
archival episode we have for you

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00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:07,650
today. If you'd like to listen
to the original upload with news

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00:18:06,575 --> 00:18:10,655
and interstitials, you can find
a link in the show notes. Never

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00:18:10,655 --> 00:18:14,895
Post is primarily listener
funded. So if you enjoyed this

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segment, please consider
becoming a member at neverpo dot

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s t. You can gain access to an
ad free member feed while

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helping us keep the show going.

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00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:27,340
Never Post's producers are
Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton,

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00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:30,140
and the mysterious doctor first
name last name. Our senior

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00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:33,100
producer is Hans Buto. Our
executive producer is Jason

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00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:36,620
Oberholzer, and the show's host,
that's me, is Mike Rignetta.

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00:18:37,385 --> 00:18:40,425
Never Post is a production of
Charts and Leisure and is

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00:18:40,425 --> 00:18:42,585
distributed by Radiotopia.