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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello,
and welcome to Never Post, a

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podcast for and about the
Internet. I'm your host, Mike

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00:00:15,965 --> 00:00:19,325
Rugnetta. This intro was written
on Tuesday, September 1 at

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09:03AM eastern, and we have a
people show for you this week.

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In this episode, Georgia chats
with Matt Sitman, cohost of the

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Know Your Enemy podcast and
former associate editor of the

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Catholic opinion journal
Commonwealth about Pope Leo's

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recent comments about the
algorithm and why so much of his

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papacy seems to be concerned
with the cultural impact of

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artificial intelligence. But
first, we are gonna take a quick

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break.

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You will listen to some ads
unless you're on the member

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feed. And when we return, we'll
we'll talk about a few of the

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things that have happened since
the last time you heard from us.

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You burden me with your
questions. You'd have me tell no

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lies. You're always asking what
it's all about, but don't listen

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to my six stories this week.

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First, folks, we did a stream
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please drop us a line. Okay. On
with the rest of the news.

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Matt Sitman: News. Oh, am so
sick of the news.

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Mike Rugnetta: Hugging Face, the
hosts of open source AI models

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and datasets used by industry
researchers and hobbyists alike

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is apparently in talks to be
acquired for a cool

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$14,000,000,000 by tech giant
NVIDIA. The New York based

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startup that hosts models from
Alibaba, Tencent, Microsoft,

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Google, as well as teenagers
with an interest in anime

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titties took $235,000,000 in
funding in 2023 from a

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combination of Salesforce
alphabet and Nvidia. At the

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time, it was valued at around
$4,500,000,000. Hugging Face

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turned down $500,000,000 from
Nvidia earlier this year stating

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a desire to stay independent.
Bloomberg reports that the deal

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hasn't been inked but is in
advanced stages and includes a

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$1,000,000,000 employee
retention package.

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Fake health influencers may be
targeting your parents. The New

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York Times, Harvard Health,
Futurism, four zero four media,

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and more have recently noted an
uptick in AI generated doctors

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promoting supplements and other
quackery in short form video,

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much of it targeted at seniors.
Videos often encourage viewers

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to stop taking their doctor
prescribed medications and

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instead replace them with
various supplements often framed

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as Asian medicine. A number of
videos have been linked to

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supplement manufacturers in
China. Ads like these would be

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illegal on US television, the
New York Times writes, but on

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the Internet, they face little
enforcement.

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At the beginning of the month,
former Google product manager

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Cody Sumter detailed a number of
the fake accounts on his sub

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stack. Some of them have since
been removed from YouTube.

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Deleted. Don't pick the
mushrooms, asks the Epping

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Forest and Commons Committee in
Essex, England. Mushroom

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foraging content has apparently
led to an increase in visitors

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to the 8,000 acre Epping Forest
and they are kindly asking as

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the British so often do, if
those visitors could quote,

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click, don't pick.

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Identifying nontoxic mushrooms
should be left to the

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professionals, of course, but
additionally, over foraging runs

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the risk of damaging the
forest's ecosystem, which the

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BBC writes had been home to
several significant fungi

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discoveries in recent years.
Bots are looking at the Internet

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too much and we gotta figure out
how to stop them. But how? Enter

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the IETF's AI preference working
group. Here's the deal.

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The burgeoning and perhaps
waning, but who can say age of

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AI internet traffic has
overwhelmingly shifted to bots,

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which are probably doing a
number of things on an

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individual level. Maybe they're
looking at a website to answer a

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question someone asked. Maybe
they're scraping all of that

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content off of that website to
train on it and build a

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proprietary model. The question
is, what if it's your website

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and you don't want that to
happen? Or you're okay with one

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of those things happening, but
not the other.

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Right now, we have no real way
of saying no thank you to bot

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traffic, and we certainly have
no fine control over which type

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of bots or access we want to
allow or disallow. The IETF or

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the Internet Engineering Task
Force is a volunteer

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organization responsible for
setting standards for the

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Internet. The Center for
Democracy and Technology writes,

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quote, the core network and
transport protocols that the

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Internet runs on, like TCP IP
for packet routing, IPV four and

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IPV six for addressing, DNS and
DNS SEC for translating domain

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names to IP addresses, and HTTP
slash HTTPS for transferring web

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pages were all standardized by
the IETF, end quote. That task

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force has now turned their
sights on bot traffic. The

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stakes of which are quite high
not just because of the volume

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of traffic their recommendations
could impact, but because the EU

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is currently posed to turn
whatever standards they develop

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into regulations and forced by
law.

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So how do individual users and
industry leaders like Adobe,

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Microsoft, Apple, etcetera, all
of whom have seats on the IETF,

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set preferences for how they
expect published material to be

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accessed and then used if the
thing accessing and then using

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it is a bot? And how are those
standards set in a way that

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enforcement, which IETF has no
hand in, is both clear and

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effective. As AI gobbles up more
of the Internet, lack of clear

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standards leads to piecemeal
solutions. Publishers enclose

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their work behind paywalls or
service providers like

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Cloudflare invent their own
traffic management solutions.

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The IETF is then racing against
several clocks to determine the

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best, clearest, and most
ecumenical solution to these

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issues.

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The group met as recently as
August 28, and all of their

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meetings for this session are up
on YouTube if you'd like to

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watch them. The discussions are
fascinating, detailed, and at

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times highly technical. While no
formal standards have been set

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at the time of writing, they are
expected to be forthcoming

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presently.

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Matt Sitman: No.

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Mike Rugnetta: Vietnam is
suffering degraded Internet

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service indefinitely as four
subsea cables providing a

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connection to the country have
faults. Overall internet

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capacity is down 30% and the
national telecom has warned

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residents that international
connections may be slow. Eight

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total cables, six of them
international service Vietnam.

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Though a series of recent issues
have, lightreading.com reports,

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quote, prompted the Vietnamese
Ministry of Information and

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Communications to approve the
construction of at least 10 new

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subsea cables by 2030, end
quote. Developing telecoms.com

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says a reason for the faults has
not been given.

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Matt Sitman: The number you've
called is disconnected.

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Mike Rugnetta: And finally, the
pope warns that artificial

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intelligence could lead to new
forms of domination if not

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appropriately regulated. In the
address of his holiness Pope Leo

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the fourteenth to participants
in the meeting of the

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International Catholic
Legislators Network dated

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Friday, 08/21/2026, the pontiff
says quote, the rapid

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development of artificial
intelligence risks creating new

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forms of technological
dependence with poorer nations

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increasingly reliant on
wealthier ones. We must remain

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vigilant in this regard, lest
innovation become another

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vehicle for ideological or
economic colonialism. Sadly, we

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are presented with a subtle form
of domination when algorithms

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decide who is seen, who remains
invisible, when digital

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platforms shape public discourse
without accountability, and when

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the dignity of workers is
subordinated to the optimization

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of systems. Such developments
reveal a new face of the ancient

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temptation to domination and
mastery without service, end

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quote.

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Contrary to what you might
otherwise hear on the Internet,

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you do not need to hand it to
the head of the Catholic church.

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However, credit where it is due,
calling corporate backed AI

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developed without human concern
a new face of ancient temptation

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goes hard as hell. After the
break, George is gonna sit down

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with Matt Sitman from Know Your
Enemy to talk more about the

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Pope, AI, algorithms, and
technological domination.

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Georgia Hampton: On August 21,
Pope Leo the fourteenth made a

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public statement to the
International Catholic

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Legislators Network warning
against the dangers of the

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algorithm. As reported by
Vatican News, His Holiness

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advocated for laws to quote,
protect users from exploitation,

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preserve personal privacy,
ensure transparency in the use

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of emerging technologies, and
guarantee that they strengthen

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democratic institutions. Poplio
explained that online, quote, we

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are presented with a subtle form
of domination when algorithms

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decide who is seen and who
remains invisible. When digital

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platforms shape public discourse
without accountability, and when

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the dignity of workers is
subordinated to the optimization

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of systems. He warned that no
single ideology should be

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wielding this kind of power.

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And if that emergent tech, like
social media algorithms and

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artificial intelligence, are
left to encroach upon and

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influence our lives without any
safeguards in place, then they

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will erode the very foundation
of humanity. Now, I'm not

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Catholic. I'm not Christian. I'm
not even religious. And it feels

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very surprising and a little
confusing, maybe, to hear the

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pope voice pretty much the exact
same concerns I have about the

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technological infrastructure of
modern life.

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And I was very curious to know
more about the relationship

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between Pope Leo and technology.
So I spoke to Matt Sitman. He's

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00:12:38,565 --> 00:12:42,245
a cohost of the podcast Know
Your Enemy and crucial to this

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00:12:42,245 --> 00:12:46,405
conversation, a former associate
editor of the largest Catholic

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opinion journal in the country,
Commonweal Magazine. And he

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explained to me that Pope Leo's
stance on technology actually

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00:12:54,700 --> 00:13:01,420
starts way before August. It can
be traced back directly to the

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00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:06,895
reason that this pope chose the
name Leo in the first place.

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Matt Sitman: So this is Leo the
fourteenth. Soon after he was

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00:13:15,055 --> 00:13:18,940
elected pope on his choice of
name, he said this, I chose to

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00:13:18,940 --> 00:13:21,820
take the name Leo the
fourteenth. There are different

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00:13:21,820 --> 00:13:25,660
reasons for this but mainly
because Pope Leo the thirteenth

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00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:30,140
in his historic encyclical Rare
Novarum addressed the social

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00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:33,225
question in the context of the
first great industrial

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00:13:33,225 --> 00:13:37,465
revolution. In our own day, the
church offers to everyone the

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treasury of her social teaching
in response to another

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industrial revolution and to
developments in the field of

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artificial intelligence that
posed new challenges for the

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defense of human dignity,
justice, and labor. And just for

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00:13:50,890 --> 00:13:55,610
another bit more of that what
rare novarme, that encyclical he

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mentioned, that came out he put
out his first encyclical earlier

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this year in May.

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I believe it was May 15, and
that was on the anniversary of

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that very encyclical that he
mentioned, Rerum Novarum. The

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00:14:08,255 --> 00:14:12,575
encyclical has become the format
in which popes kind of weigh in

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00:14:12,575 --> 00:14:17,230
on big issues and kind of give
their both kind of the Catholic

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00:14:17,230 --> 00:14:19,870
take, but also it tends to be
something they're really

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00:14:19,870 --> 00:14:23,390
concerned about. This is like a
major it's like official

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00:14:23,390 --> 00:14:26,110
doctrine in a way, right? It's
part of the magisterium, meaning

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00:14:26,110 --> 00:14:29,745
the kind of it's it's the Pope
speaking in a fairly formal

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00:14:29,745 --> 00:14:30,865
capacity. Right?

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00:14:30,865 --> 00:14:33,985
And really, what Reverend
Novarum was was talking about

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00:14:33,985 --> 00:14:37,825
the rights of labor, of working
people in the context of this

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00:14:37,825 --> 00:14:42,465
great industrial revolution. I
mean, Leo the thirteenth, the

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00:14:42,465 --> 00:14:47,280
the prior pope Leo, he is
blistering when he talks about

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00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,120
the exploitation and abuse of
working people as these new

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technologies developed. Again,
this is the context of the

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industrial revolution. But he
says the decline of say the

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00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,405
medieval guilds that offered
workers some protection, like

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these new developments in the
way the economy functions and

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the way people are working, that
what their jobs are, they're

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leaving working people just
totally unable to kind of defend

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themselves at the mercy of ever
bigger, more powerful, you know,

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corporations. This is the age
of, you know, massive wealth

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inequality taking off in a
certain way with like, you know,

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robber barons and titans of
industry.

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And so it's very interesting to
me that right out of the gate,

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Pope Leo the fourteenth, the
current pope, calls back to this

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prior this is really the start
of Catholic social teaching, a

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phrase he used in that in that
statement and that you'll

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probably hear me saying, that's
just kind of that's that's kind

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of how Catholics think about
society and politics in ways

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that should be, you know,
they're not always explicitly

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dependent on the Bible or
Christian revelation in a

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certain way, natural law, things
that reasonable people can think

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about together and consider and
discuss, you know, that's when

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that started. You know, it's
been this body of thought and

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Pope Leo was saying, we need to
update this body of thought that

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Catholics have been thinking
about since the industrial

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revolution, specifically in this
context of AI and new emerging

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technologies because he thinks
this is like the issue of our

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time on par with the industrial
revolution.

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Georgia Hampton: So thinking of
this encyclical as I mean, a a

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foundational text of his beliefs
and as you said, his his

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addition to Catholic social
teachings. I'd be interested to

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hear more about Pope Leo's
interpretation of that in

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regards to AI because then we
obviously need to get to his

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points about the algorithm and
how that fits in.

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Matt Sitman: Yes. Well, you
know, with AI, kind of generally

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speaking, and this this will
lead into, you know, what he

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says specifically about
algorithms because I did check

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and in Magnifica Humanitas, the
encyclical, we're discussing

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algorithms are mentioned by name
at least 19 times.

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Mike Rugnetta: Woah.

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Matt Sitman: Yeah. Like, so in
some ways, AI and algorithms are

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they're not identical for Pope
Leo. Like I think we can, you

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know, disentangle them some, but
his critique of them both is

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basically he's very concerned
about them becoming a form of

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domination that is insidious and
subtle because who's doing it?

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Right? It's it's like it's not I
or you or we or even they, it's

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the algorithm doing it.

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Right? And he makes that point a
lot with technology, not just

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the algorithm specifically, but
in general with AI. He's like,

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who are like, is there
democratic input? You know, say

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the the all the fights now in
The US over data centers. Right?

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It's kind of like, well, is this
just a technical problem or is

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this really a problem about
people in a democracy having

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some say over what can be built
in their backyard or what are

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they being you know, what laws
regulate what we are seeing,

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what is being fed to us. Do we
have any say in this? Can there

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be any democratic control? Pope
Leo, he always is coming back to

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the defense of human dignity and
saying, can we need to take a

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step back and think about how
the power and control this gives

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tech overlords, that gives
massive corporations, what this

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might do to the already rampant
inequality, wealth inequality in

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our societies, the jobs that
might be lost. All these are

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things that we should be
discussing in a democratic way

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00:18:27,405 --> 00:18:29,910
and that people should have some
say over.

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That word domination is the one
he uses a lot. An insidious

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subtle form of domination
because it's not coming through

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like armies invading your
country or a tyrannical leader

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00:18:38,790 --> 00:18:41,590
seizing political power, but
it's through technologies we're

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all kind of adopting just almost
passively. Right? He's saying

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00:18:45,345 --> 00:18:48,225
it's it's kind of like just
shaking us say, whatever you

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00:18:48,225 --> 00:18:51,025
decide. I mean, he has his own
view, but it's like we are

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sleepwalking into, well,
something he likens to the

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industrial revolution.

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Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I mean,
in in his most recent

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00:18:58,465 --> 00:19:03,150
statements, he compares this
kind of slippery slope, like,

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passive adoption of AI whole
cloth as a threat of ideological

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colonialism. And what's
interesting to me, certainly as

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someone who has, I mean,
virtually no relationship to the

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00:19:18,785 --> 00:19:22,785
the Pope and and the Catholic
Church writ large, that so many

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00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:25,745
of of his comments kind of don't
have very much to do

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00:19:25,745 --> 00:19:32,230
specifically with AI as a threat
to like religion or Catholicism,

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00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:37,350
but as like an existential
threat to us as people.

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00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:42,635
Matt Sitman: Yes. Totally. I
mean, this is how he starts his

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00:19:42,635 --> 00:19:47,355
encyclical. I mean, he mentions
humanity created in all its

305
00:19:47,355 --> 00:19:50,235
grandeur by God, you know,
references the biblical stories

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00:19:50,235 --> 00:19:54,315
like the Tower Of Babel and
things like that. But I mean,

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he's very clear that he wants to
he wants to build a city founded

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on the common good, to use his
language.

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00:20:01,610 --> 00:20:05,770
And so that means like it's it
it is not yeah. His concern is

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not what does this mean for the
Catholic church. It means his

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00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:11,450
concern is what does it mean for
human beings? And he addresses

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00:20:11,515 --> 00:20:15,515
kind of all people of goodwill,
you know, to join in these

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00:20:15,515 --> 00:20:19,035
deliberations, you know. He
might use specifically Christian

314
00:20:19,035 --> 00:20:23,835
language or idiom, but he does
not I I think like any person of

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00:20:23,835 --> 00:20:26,475
goodwill who cares about like
treating other human beings

316
00:20:26,475 --> 00:20:30,310
well, you know, human dignity,
that's a concept that yeah, he

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00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:33,350
talks about it as a Catholic,
but he addresses this encyclical

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00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:36,630
to everyone who might make a
contribution to helping us

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00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:39,590
discern the best way forward and
build the common good.

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00:20:39,855 --> 00:20:41,775
Georgia Hampton: Something about
this that is also very

321
00:20:41,775 --> 00:20:43,935
intriguing to me, and it's
interesting that you mentioned

322
00:20:43,935 --> 00:20:50,335
the Industrial Revolution as a
previous focus of analysis and

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00:20:50,335 --> 00:20:59,330
some concern. My curiosity is
also about where the pope, I

324
00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:01,890
guess, specifically exists in
relation to emergent

325
00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:06,065
technologies, sort of
historically. Because my very

326
00:21:06,065 --> 00:21:10,145
outsider presumption, I think,
before this conversation was one

327
00:21:10,145 --> 00:21:13,105
where it was like, oh, well,
it's like the concern is of

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00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:17,425
modernity. The concern is of a
certain kind of modernity that

329
00:21:17,425 --> 00:21:22,330
is maybe independent of
traditional religious practice?

330
00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:25,130
Matt Sitman: Well, I mean,
you're not wrong to to kind of

331
00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:28,250
have wondered about that because
there are, you know, different

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00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:32,525
popes sometimes do offer more
kind of comprehensive critiques

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of just, you know, like the
technology becomes sort of, you

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00:21:37,325 --> 00:21:41,805
know, emblem of things that have
gone wrong more broadly in

335
00:21:41,805 --> 00:21:45,980
modernity. Right? Sometimes it
popes have slipped into that. It

336
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:49,820
is kind of fascinating to me,
like, the relationship between

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00:21:49,820 --> 00:21:52,460
popes and technology, like some
of the first, like, radio

338
00:21:52,460 --> 00:21:55,900
stations, you know, or the
first, like, telescopes that

339
00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:00,035
looked at the stars, you know,
astronomy. Like, different

340
00:22:00,115 --> 00:22:02,675
postures toward technology, you
might say, over the centuries.

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00:22:02,675 --> 00:22:04,515
Georgia Hampton: Mean Galileo
would probably have a lot to say

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00:22:04,515 --> 00:22:05,315
about Yes.

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00:22:05,875 --> 00:22:08,995
Matt Sitman: Yes. But I will say
Pope Leo, one of the really

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00:22:08,995 --> 00:22:12,035
interesting things about him is
he his degree as an

345
00:22:12,035 --> 00:22:15,780
undergraduate was in
mathematics. And he the

346
00:22:15,780 --> 00:22:19,940
religious order he before
becoming pope, bishop, and then

347
00:22:19,940 --> 00:22:23,060
cardinal and pope that he was is
a member of is the Augustinian

348
00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:26,020
order. And you don't really need
to know much about that other

349
00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:30,775
than, you know, the vows of
poverty and obedience, your

350
00:22:30,775 --> 00:22:34,855
typical kind of monk like
behavior or, you know, brothers,

351
00:22:34,935 --> 00:22:39,415
you know. But he they needed a
website at some point, and Pope

352
00:22:39,415 --> 00:22:40,775
Leo just made it himself.

353
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Oh. Like he built a website. So
like my sense is this is a guy

354
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,920
who studied math at at Villanova
back when, you know, when he was

355
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,160
in college and has had a keen
interest in technology along the

356
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,840
way. He built the first website
for his Augustinian order, think

357
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,125
just because he seems like that
kind of guy, right, who's kind

358
00:22:59,125 --> 00:23:03,125
of like handy and knows
something about tech and has a I

359
00:23:03,125 --> 00:23:07,125
would say, he's not just like
this, you know, removed priest

360
00:23:07,125 --> 00:23:11,365
who someone hands him a briefing
on AI. I think the fact that he

361
00:23:11,365 --> 00:23:14,910
chose the name he did, explained
it the way he did right away.

362
00:23:14,910 --> 00:23:17,710
His first day as pope meant that
this is a guy who's been

363
00:23:17,710 --> 00:23:20,510
thinking about technology and
artificial intelligence

364
00:23:20,510 --> 00:23:23,790
intelligence specifically for
quite a while. And when he came

365
00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:27,465
in as pope and said, this is
this is our industrial

366
00:23:27,465 --> 00:23:30,905
revolution, I think that says
not just something about his

367
00:23:30,905 --> 00:23:33,865
political instincts and values,
but kind of his his own

368
00:23:33,865 --> 00:23:37,385
biography and the interesting
relationship Pope Leo has with

369
00:23:37,385 --> 00:23:39,065
technology himself.

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Georgia Hampton: Is is it right
for me to assume he's like the

371
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first online pope?

372
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,320
Matt Sitman: You're not wrong to
assume that because, I mean, it

373
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,200
was pretty clear that, say, Pope
Benedict the sixteenth or Pope

374
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,440
Francis, you know, they were of
an age where, like, they really,

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00:23:56,055 --> 00:23:58,295
you know, like, I have
grandparents who have never sent

376
00:23:58,295 --> 00:24:01,175
or received an email. Right. I
think they're kind of like maybe

377
00:24:01,175 --> 00:24:07,095
in closer to that category, but
Pope Leo, like, is very aware of

378
00:24:07,095 --> 00:24:12,030
the kind of political discourse
in The United States. And like,

379
00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:14,990
there have been reports that
have come out that essentially,

380
00:24:14,990 --> 00:24:19,070
he's kind of online, like kind
of is still on Twitter. Least at

381
00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:21,870
least to kind of I've wondered,
does he have a burner account?

382
00:24:21,870 --> 00:24:25,230
You know? Oh my god. But like,
he's aware of what people are

383
00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:29,445
saying about the Catholic church
himself and kind of, you know,

384
00:24:29,445 --> 00:24:33,685
when he does something like put
out an encyclical on artificial

385
00:24:33,685 --> 00:24:37,605
intelligence, he is not simply
just being handed, I think, like

386
00:24:37,605 --> 00:24:41,220
a briefing book again of like
tweets that people are saying or

387
00:24:41,220 --> 00:24:44,500
headlines. I think he is
personally engaged in a way that

388
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,620
I don't know all the specifics
of, but I kind of believe

389
00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:50,180
everything I just said, right,
about where he came from in his

390
00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:52,740
biography, it kind of makes
sense to me that he would sort

391
00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:55,795
of be keeping an eye on what
people are saying about, you

392
00:24:55,795 --> 00:24:59,955
know, some of his interventions
in our public life. Especially,

393
00:24:59,955 --> 00:25:02,435
he's the first American pope,
which we haven't mentioned yet.

394
00:25:02,435 --> 00:25:06,035
But so he's but I think he's
really so that's kind of

395
00:25:06,035 --> 00:25:08,195
interesting just in terms of
technology. Like, it kind of

396
00:25:08,195 --> 00:25:11,330
would be the first American who,
you know, maybe has some of

397
00:25:11,330 --> 00:25:15,490
these impulses, but also he
knows just how deranged the

398
00:25:15,490 --> 00:25:17,970
right wing of the Catholic
church is in The United States.

399
00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:20,690
And he knows they literally
trying to kind of destroy Pope

400
00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:25,075
Francis's papacy. I think Leo is
like, I cannot I cannot simply

401
00:25:25,075 --> 00:25:27,955
outsource this. Like, I'm an
American, I'm the first American

402
00:25:27,955 --> 00:25:28,355
pope.

403
00:25:28,355 --> 00:25:32,515
I know what these people, you
know, I know what they're up to.

404
00:25:32,515 --> 00:25:34,995
I know they're up to no good.
And I'm not just going to kind

405
00:25:34,995 --> 00:25:38,660
of passively respond to their
criticisms, but I'm going you

406
00:25:38,660 --> 00:25:41,540
could I think he's engaged in a
certain way and that has

407
00:25:41,540 --> 00:25:44,660
something to do with his
interest in in relationship to

408
00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:45,300
technology.

409
00:26:03,890 --> 00:26:07,890
Georgia Hampton: I do wanna talk
about I don't know if it's

410
00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:12,050
gauche to separate the broader
practice of Catholicism or

411
00:26:12,050 --> 00:26:16,290
certainly the way it exists in
this country from the pope. But

412
00:26:16,585 --> 00:26:28,585
I wonder where AI sits within
Catholicism as a system beyond

413
00:26:28,585 --> 00:26:31,225
just the pope and clearly his
perspective on it.

414
00:26:31,570 --> 00:26:34,130
Matt Sitman: Well, you know, I
think one way to to begin to

415
00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:37,810
answer that question, and I I'm
gonna read from his encyclical.

416
00:26:37,810 --> 00:26:40,370
This came out in May. So these
were before some of the most

417
00:26:40,370 --> 00:26:44,530
recent comments that prompted
this conversation. But I think

418
00:26:44,530 --> 00:26:48,665
this is a good example of how it
might relate to Catholicism more

419
00:26:48,665 --> 00:26:51,945
broadly or how you can see where
it doesn't doesn't relate to it.

420
00:26:52,185 --> 00:26:55,945
Leo writes, indeed, entrusting
an algorithm in practice with

421
00:26:55,945 --> 00:26:59,690
the power to select who is
worthy or not without anyone

422
00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:03,210
bearing responsibility for that
judgment is to hand over the

423
00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:05,610
task of redefining the
boundaries of human

424
00:27:05,610 --> 00:27:06,570
possibilities.

425
00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:11,915
In this process, political
responsibility is also lost. Not

426
00:27:11,915 --> 00:27:15,035
just empathy toward those
excluded which can after all be

427
00:27:15,035 --> 00:27:19,195
simulated. The exclusion of the
vulnerable becomes cloaked in a

428
00:27:19,195 --> 00:27:23,515
veneer of neutrality and
objectivity against which it

429
00:27:23,515 --> 00:27:26,720
becomes difficult to raise
objections. In this way,

430
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,640
injustice goes unnoticed and
compassion, mercy and

431
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,120
forgiveness understood not as
mere appearances but as real

432
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:40,155
political actions gradually
disappear from view. So you can

433
00:27:40,155 --> 00:27:43,195
see that he's not saying
anything about going to church

434
00:27:43,195 --> 00:27:47,595
or Catholic doctrine there, but
it would also be a mistake to

435
00:27:48,395 --> 00:27:52,795
not see that at some level, that
phrase, the task of redefining

436
00:27:52,795 --> 00:27:56,090
the boundaries of human
possibilities, that could not

437
00:27:56,090 --> 00:28:00,250
but be a concern of any
religious faith really.

438
00:28:00,570 --> 00:28:04,250
Right? Because I mean,
religions, one thing they do is

439
00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:07,065
they say this is what it means
to be a human being. What it

440
00:28:07,065 --> 00:28:12,345
means to be born, to suffer, to
live, and to die. Right? And and

441
00:28:12,345 --> 00:28:19,705
so there is a way in which AI is
it's not a specifically Catholic

442
00:28:19,705 --> 00:28:22,770
concern in the sense of all the
particulars of the Catholic

443
00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:26,930
faith, but in another sense, it
is it goes right to the heart of

444
00:28:26,930 --> 00:28:29,090
the claims the Catholic church
makes.

445
00:28:29,170 --> 00:28:32,930
Maybe what this the reason like
Pope someone like Pope Leo has

446
00:28:32,930 --> 00:28:36,210
to weigh in or why it's like
such an urgent matter for him

447
00:28:36,645 --> 00:28:41,605
is, does not AI isn't it
actually forcing us to ask

448
00:28:41,605 --> 00:28:44,885
questions about what it really
and truly means to be a human

449
00:28:44,885 --> 00:28:48,165
being? Like, we're really
getting down to very concrete

450
00:28:48,165 --> 00:28:51,080
questions of like, what is the
difference between something I

451
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,640
write and create as a human
being and something the

452
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,880
algorithm or the AI chatbot
does? Right? That is making you

453
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,840
say, what does it really mean to
be human? And that is something

454
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,355
that like, whatever else you
think of them, that's what

455
00:29:03,355 --> 00:29:04,875
religions have answered for us.

456
00:29:04,875 --> 00:29:08,475
And so it's almost like AI is
almost throwing us back on such

457
00:29:08,475 --> 00:29:11,915
elemental questions of what it
means to be a human being.

458
00:29:12,235 --> 00:29:14,475
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I I mean,
I just keep going back to your

459
00:29:14,475 --> 00:29:17,890
point about what was it,
Catholic social doctrine?

460
00:29:17,890 --> 00:29:19,090
Matt Sitman: Yes. Mhmm.

461
00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:21,970
Georgia Hampton: Because I will
say again, as someone who is not

462
00:29:21,970 --> 00:29:27,410
Catholic and has no relationship
to Catholicism, hearing the pope

463
00:29:27,410 --> 00:29:33,025
make any kind of statement about
technology, before I even know

464
00:29:33,025 --> 00:29:36,785
what it is, I have to admit
there's a part of me that's

465
00:29:36,785 --> 00:29:41,265
like, well, is the threat here
that this technology will take

466
00:29:41,345 --> 00:29:44,385
people away from the doctrine of
Catholicism?

467
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,160
Matt Sitman: Yeah.

468
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,120
Georgia Hampton: And it's a and
it's just more control. But that

469
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:53,000
kinda doesn't sound like what is
going on.

470
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,400
Matt Sitman: I I know what
that's so interesting. I know

471
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,505
where you're going with that or
I I I'm tracking with you. And I

472
00:29:58,505 --> 00:30:00,985
think part of it is because I
have the same tendencies

473
00:30:00,985 --> 00:30:04,505
actually. Like, I'm, you know,
I'm a bit of a dissident in the

474
00:30:04,505 --> 00:30:07,785
church, so, you know, I have
some of those skeptical impulses

475
00:30:07,785 --> 00:30:14,300
as well. But where I'm going
with that is that, like it's not

476
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:16,860
a threat the technology isn't a
threat to the Catholic church

477
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:20,220
per se or it's not you know,
Pope Leo isn't criticizing it

478
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:23,580
because he realizes it like it's
it's, you know he's not saying

479
00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:25,260
what he's saying because he
wants more control.

480
00:30:25,625 --> 00:30:28,505
But there is a way in which I
kind of wonder the extent to

481
00:30:28,505 --> 00:30:32,665
which artificial intelligence,
it's kind of the way we live

482
00:30:32,665 --> 00:30:35,785
online now, in the place of
technology and kind of like

483
00:30:35,785 --> 00:30:42,810
inhabiting our consciousness. If
like maybe what's going on is

484
00:30:42,810 --> 00:30:46,490
like the very possibility of a
rich spiritual life is being

485
00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:50,730
threatened. And so, you know,
like sitting in solitude, like I

486
00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:53,850
often say to my friends, like,
why do you go to church? And I

487
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:57,130
said, there's lots of reasons.
But I said, among other things,

488
00:30:57,130 --> 00:31:01,025
like, even in periods of my life
where my faith was not as robust

489
00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:05,025
or alive as it as it has been in
others, I would still go to

490
00:31:05,025 --> 00:31:09,025
church because where else in our
society do you, like, sit there

491
00:31:09,025 --> 00:31:12,030
quietly not looking at your
phone for, you know, somewhere

492
00:31:12,030 --> 00:31:15,550
between forty five minutes and a
little over an hour and let

493
00:31:15,550 --> 00:31:18,110
alone sit there quietly and
think about your life.

494
00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:20,990
And it's like there are ways in
which you don't have to go to

495
00:31:20,990 --> 00:31:24,110
church to do that, obviously.
But I do feel like churches are

496
00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:28,035
one of the, you know, number of
ever shrinking number of spaces

497
00:31:28,195 --> 00:31:31,475
where like quiet and solitude
and thinking about your life in

498
00:31:31,475 --> 00:31:34,995
a certain way is encouraged and
that can be through meditation

499
00:31:34,995 --> 00:31:38,115
practices, that can be through
other religious traditions, that

500
00:31:38,115 --> 00:31:42,440
can be through running, right,
in the morning and thinking,

501
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,760
love being alive and I love this
world. But all those things, all

502
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,320
impulses toward interiority and
I think reflectiveness and

503
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,125
thoughtfulness and thinking
about your life in an

504
00:31:54,125 --> 00:31:58,445
intentional way are threatened
by the kind of array of

505
00:31:58,445 --> 00:32:03,805
technological devices and
algorithms and social media

506
00:32:03,805 --> 00:32:07,580
sites, like, literally or, you
know, designed to make us

507
00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:08,460
addicted to them.

508
00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:09,020
Georgia Hampton: Mhmm.

509
00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:10,940
Matt Sitman: Right? There's
there's a great line of the

510
00:32:10,940 --> 00:32:15,180
poet, W. H. Auden, where he
says, all sin tends to be

511
00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:18,940
addicting, and the terminal
point of addiction is damnation.

512
00:32:19,580 --> 00:32:20,220
Woah.

513
00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:24,535
And I which that's, you know,
really heavy to drop at this

514
00:32:24,535 --> 00:32:27,335
point in the conversation. But
you know what I'm saying? Like

515
00:32:27,495 --> 00:32:31,415
like, I think that might be
that's my very circuitous answer

516
00:32:31,415 --> 00:32:34,535
to your question that I think
like, yeah, what Pope Leo's

517
00:32:34,535 --> 00:32:37,390
alarm, it's not like, oh, how
can I talk about this to kind of

518
00:32:37,390 --> 00:32:40,030
gain more power for the Catholic
church, which some popes, you

519
00:32:40,030 --> 00:32:43,470
know, might have done? I really
think this is a truly earnest,

520
00:32:43,470 --> 00:32:48,430
honest, like, cry from his heart
about, like, us being on the

521
00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:51,845
brink of kind of not really
being fully human anymore in

522
00:32:51,845 --> 00:32:54,565
terms of the way we treat each
other and organize our society.

523
00:32:54,565 --> 00:32:57,205
Georgia Hampton: Which is just a
question of like the essential

524
00:32:57,525 --> 00:33:03,285
act of being alive. Like, his
comments about the algorithm and

525
00:33:03,285 --> 00:33:08,690
very much them being one of of
control is part of that, I

526
00:33:08,690 --> 00:33:09,170
think.

527
00:33:09,490 --> 00:33:12,290
Matt Sitman: The control part,
you know, it's very interesting.

528
00:33:12,290 --> 00:33:16,290
In the more recent comments
about the algorithm specifically

529
00:33:16,290 --> 00:33:18,850
that Pope Leo has made, I
thought it was really

530
00:33:18,850 --> 00:33:21,945
fascinating, and I'd love your
reaction to this, is he's

531
00:33:21,945 --> 00:33:26,425
comparing it to colonialism.
Right? Like a new the algorithm

532
00:33:26,425 --> 00:33:29,785
is a new form of economic
domination that really a new

533
00:33:29,785 --> 00:33:32,665
form of a new form of
colonialism. And I think like

534
00:33:32,665 --> 00:33:36,120
that kind of language may be
more apt than we realize because

535
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,800
like what is being colonized?

536
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,800
Our minds and souls Yes. Among
other things. Yes. Right? But

537
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,480
that I think what did you think
of I mean, surely, you stood up

538
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,640
a little straighter in your
chair when you start to see a

539
00:33:47,640 --> 00:36:52,920
pope talking about because of
the efficiency or the greater

540
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:53,240
good.

541
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,440
Right? Like like, some of what
we're talking about is like,

542
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,560
what what about all the tax
revenue from data centers?

543
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,320
Right? Well well well, yes,
there are that tax revenue, but

544
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,505
what lives you know, what water
are you willing to poison?

545
00:37:06,505 --> 00:37:06,905
Right?

546
00:37:06,905 --> 00:37:10,105
What what parts of the natural
environment are you willing to,

547
00:37:10,105 --> 00:37:12,825
you know, build these centers
on? Or like, what people are you

548
00:37:12,825 --> 00:37:15,625
going to displace? Or what jobs
are going to be displaced?

549
00:37:15,785 --> 00:37:17,945
Right? You sometimes just have
to say no.

550
00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:21,740
It's no. You can't do this to
other people. You just can't.

551
00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:25,660
And there's and there's not many
voices in the world who will say

552
00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:29,900
no no no no no even as the tax
revenues start coming in. Even

553
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:33,020
as the even as the geopolitical
competition with China takes

554
00:37:33,020 --> 00:37:33,580
center stage.

555
00:37:33,905 --> 00:37:37,025
Even, you know, you can name all
the reasons, it'd be great to

556
00:37:37,025 --> 00:37:39,905
fudge on human dignity and say,
actually this group of people,

557
00:37:39,905 --> 00:37:43,505
their dignity, we can actually
erase the circle around it and

558
00:37:43,505 --> 00:37:46,625
say it's expendable in this
case. That's always a

559
00:37:46,625 --> 00:37:51,480
temptation, always. And so I
think one one reason, like the

560
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,400
passage I just moved about
infinite dignity, every human

561
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,600
being possesses infinite dignity
without exception no matter what

562
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,320
state they find themselves in,
is because that's just not

563
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,440
something you hear very much.

564
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,280
Mike Rugnetta: That is the news
we have for you this week. We

565
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,240
are gonna be back here in the
main feed on or around Thursday,

566
00:38:32,775 --> 00:38:40,455
September 10. Help us. Help us.
Help us continue to make this

567
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exaggeration. Become a member at
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570
00:39:04,195 --> 00:39:06,515
producers are Audrey Evans,
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571
00:39:06,515 --> 00:39:08,995
mysterious doctor first name
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572
00:39:08,995 --> 00:39:09,875
is Hans Buto.

573
00:39:09,875 --> 00:39:12,915
Our executive producer is Jason
Oberholzer, the show's host,

574
00:39:12,915 --> 00:39:18,520
that's me, is Mike Ragneto. Suck
up stork torso into the jet

575
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,640
engine like a fork in the throat
so the engine goes YOLO BOGO

576
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,760
putt putt, flashing its famous
lights like teeth though.

577
00:39:26,145 --> 00:39:30,385
Excerpt of Day of Being by Joy l
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578
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