Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a
podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike
Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, September 1 at
09:03AM eastern, and we have a people show for you this week.
In this episode, Georgia chats with Matt Sitman, cohost of the
Know Your Enemy podcast and former associate editor of the
Catholic opinion journal Commonwealth about Pope Leo's
recent comments about the algorithm and why so much of his
papacy seems to be concerned with the cultural impact of
artificial intelligence. But first, we are gonna take a quick
break.
You will listen to some ads unless you're on the member
feed. And when we return, we'll we'll talk about a few of the
things that have happened since the last time you heard from us.
You burden me with your questions. You'd have me tell no
lies. You're always asking what it's all about, but don't listen
to my six stories this week.
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please drop us a line. Okay. On with the rest of the news.
Matt Sitman: News. Oh, am so sick of the news.
Mike Rugnetta: Hugging Face, the hosts of open source AI models
and datasets used by industry researchers and hobbyists alike
is apparently in talks to be acquired for a cool
$14,000,000,000 by tech giant NVIDIA. The New York based
startup that hosts models from Alibaba, Tencent, Microsoft,
Google, as well as teenagers with an interest in anime
titties took $235,000,000 in funding in 2023 from a
combination of Salesforce alphabet and Nvidia. At the
time, it was valued at around $4,500,000,000. Hugging Face
turned down $500,000,000 from Nvidia earlier this year stating
a desire to stay independent. Bloomberg reports that the deal
hasn't been inked but is in advanced stages and includes a
$1,000,000,000 employee retention package.
Fake health influencers may be targeting your parents. The New
York Times, Harvard Health, Futurism, four zero four media,
and more have recently noted an uptick in AI generated doctors
promoting supplements and other quackery in short form video,
much of it targeted at seniors. Videos often encourage viewers
to stop taking their doctor prescribed medications and
instead replace them with various supplements often framed
as Asian medicine. A number of videos have been linked to
supplement manufacturers in China. Ads like these would be
illegal on US television, the New York Times writes, but on
the Internet, they face little enforcement.
At the beginning of the month, former Google product manager
Cody Sumter detailed a number of the fake accounts on his sub
stack. Some of them have since been removed from YouTube.
Deleted. Don't pick the mushrooms, asks the Epping
Forest and Commons Committee in Essex, England. Mushroom
foraging content has apparently led to an increase in visitors
to the 8,000 acre Epping Forest and they are kindly asking as
the British so often do, if those visitors could quote,
click, don't pick.
Identifying nontoxic mushrooms should be left to the
professionals, of course, but additionally, over foraging runs
the risk of damaging the forest's ecosystem, which the
BBC writes had been home to several significant fungi
discoveries in recent years. Bots are looking at the Internet
too much and we gotta figure out how to stop them. But how? Enter
the IETF's AI preference working group. Here's the deal.
The burgeoning and perhaps waning, but who can say age of
AI internet traffic has overwhelmingly shifted to bots,
which are probably doing a number of things on an
individual level. Maybe they're looking at a website to answer a
question someone asked. Maybe they're scraping all of that
content off of that website to train on it and build a
proprietary model. The question is, what if it's your website
and you don't want that to happen? Or you're okay with one
of those things happening, but not the other.
Right now, we have no real way of saying no thank you to bot
traffic, and we certainly have no fine control over which type
of bots or access we want to allow or disallow. The IETF or
the Internet Engineering Task Force is a volunteer
organization responsible for setting standards for the
Internet. The Center for Democracy and Technology writes,
quote, the core network and transport protocols that the
Internet runs on, like TCP IP for packet routing, IPV four and
IPV six for addressing, DNS and DNS SEC for translating domain
names to IP addresses, and HTTP slash HTTPS for transferring web
pages were all standardized by the IETF, end quote. That task
force has now turned their sights on bot traffic. The
stakes of which are quite high not just because of the volume
of traffic their recommendations could impact, but because the EU
is currently posed to turn whatever standards they develop
into regulations and forced by law.
So how do individual users and industry leaders like Adobe,
Microsoft, Apple, etcetera, all of whom have seats on the IETF,
set preferences for how they expect published material to be
accessed and then used if the thing accessing and then using
it is a bot? And how are those standards set in a way that
enforcement, which IETF has no hand in, is both clear and
effective. As AI gobbles up more of the Internet, lack of clear
standards leads to piecemeal solutions. Publishers enclose
their work behind paywalls or service providers like
Cloudflare invent their own traffic management solutions.
The IETF is then racing against several clocks to determine the
best, clearest, and most ecumenical solution to these
issues.
The group met as recently as August 28, and all of their
meetings for this session are up on YouTube if you'd like to
watch them. The discussions are fascinating, detailed, and at
times highly technical. While no formal standards have been set
at the time of writing, they are expected to be forthcoming
presently.
Matt Sitman: No.
Mike Rugnetta: Vietnam is suffering degraded Internet
service indefinitely as four subsea cables providing a
connection to the country have faults. Overall internet
capacity is down 30% and the national telecom has warned
residents that international connections may be slow. Eight
total cables, six of them international service Vietnam.
Though a series of recent issues have, lightreading.com reports,
quote, prompted the Vietnamese Ministry of Information and
Communications to approve the construction of at least 10 new
subsea cables by 2030, end quote. Developing telecoms.com
says a reason for the faults has not been given.
Matt Sitman: The number you've called is disconnected.
Mike Rugnetta: And finally, the pope warns that artificial
intelligence could lead to new forms of domination if not
appropriately regulated. In the address of his holiness Pope Leo
the fourteenth to participants in the meeting of the
International Catholic Legislators Network dated
Friday, 08/21/2026, the pontiff says quote, the rapid
development of artificial intelligence risks creating new
forms of technological dependence with poorer nations
increasingly reliant on wealthier ones. We must remain
vigilant in this regard, lest innovation become another
vehicle for ideological or economic colonialism. Sadly, we
are presented with a subtle form of domination when algorithms
decide who is seen, who remains invisible, when digital
platforms shape public discourse without accountability, and when
the dignity of workers is subordinated to the optimization
of systems. Such developments reveal a new face of the ancient
temptation to domination and mastery without service, end
quote.
Contrary to what you might otherwise hear on the Internet,
you do not need to hand it to the head of the Catholic church.
However, credit where it is due, calling corporate backed AI
developed without human concern a new face of ancient temptation
goes hard as hell. After the break, George is gonna sit down
with Matt Sitman from Know Your Enemy to talk more about the
Pope, AI, algorithms, and technological domination.
Georgia Hampton: On August 21, Pope Leo the fourteenth made a
public statement to the International Catholic
Legislators Network warning against the dangers of the
algorithm. As reported by Vatican News, His Holiness
advocated for laws to quote, protect users from exploitation,
preserve personal privacy, ensure transparency in the use
of emerging technologies, and guarantee that they strengthen
democratic institutions. Poplio explained that online, quote, we
are presented with a subtle form of domination when algorithms
decide who is seen and who remains invisible. When digital
platforms shape public discourse without accountability, and when
the dignity of workers is subordinated to the optimization
of systems. He warned that no single ideology should be
wielding this kind of power.
And if that emergent tech, like social media algorithms and
artificial intelligence, are left to encroach upon and
influence our lives without any safeguards in place, then they
will erode the very foundation of humanity. Now, I'm not
Catholic. I'm not Christian. I'm not even religious. And it feels
very surprising and a little confusing, maybe, to hear the
pope voice pretty much the exact same concerns I have about the
technological infrastructure of modern life.
And I was very curious to know more about the relationship
between Pope Leo and technology. So I spoke to Matt Sitman. He's
a cohost of the podcast Know Your Enemy and crucial to this
conversation, a former associate editor of the largest Catholic
opinion journal in the country, Commonweal Magazine. And he
explained to me that Pope Leo's stance on technology actually
starts way before August. It can be traced back directly to the
reason that this pope chose the name Leo in the first place.
Matt Sitman: So this is Leo the fourteenth. Soon after he was
elected pope on his choice of name, he said this, I chose to
take the name Leo the fourteenth. There are different
reasons for this but mainly because Pope Leo the thirteenth
in his historic encyclical Rare Novarum addressed the social
question in the context of the first great industrial
revolution. In our own day, the church offers to everyone the
treasury of her social teaching in response to another
industrial revolution and to developments in the field of
artificial intelligence that posed new challenges for the
defense of human dignity, justice, and labor. And just for
another bit more of that what rare novarme, that encyclical he
mentioned, that came out he put out his first encyclical earlier
this year in May.
I believe it was May 15, and that was on the anniversary of
that very encyclical that he mentioned, Rerum Novarum. The
encyclical has become the format in which popes kind of weigh in
on big issues and kind of give their both kind of the Catholic
take, but also it tends to be something they're really
concerned about. This is like a major it's like official
doctrine in a way, right? It's part of the magisterium, meaning
the kind of it's it's the Pope speaking in a fairly formal
capacity. Right?
And really, what Reverend Novarum was was talking about
the rights of labor, of working people in the context of this
great industrial revolution. I mean, Leo the thirteenth, the
the prior pope Leo, he is blistering when he talks about
the exploitation and abuse of working people as these new
technologies developed. Again, this is the context of the
industrial revolution. But he says the decline of say the
medieval guilds that offered workers some protection, like
these new developments in the way the economy functions and
the way people are working, that what their jobs are, they're
leaving working people just totally unable to kind of defend
themselves at the mercy of ever bigger, more powerful, you know,
corporations. This is the age of, you know, massive wealth
inequality taking off in a certain way with like, you know,
robber barons and titans of industry.
And so it's very interesting to me that right out of the gate,
Pope Leo the fourteenth, the current pope, calls back to this
prior this is really the start of Catholic social teaching, a
phrase he used in that in that statement and that you'll
probably hear me saying, that's just kind of that's that's kind
of how Catholics think about society and politics in ways
that should be, you know, they're not always explicitly
dependent on the Bible or Christian revelation in a
certain way, natural law, things that reasonable people can think
about together and consider and discuss, you know, that's when
that started. You know, it's been this body of thought and
Pope Leo was saying, we need to update this body of thought that
Catholics have been thinking about since the industrial
revolution, specifically in this context of AI and new emerging
technologies because he thinks this is like the issue of our
time on par with the industrial revolution.
Georgia Hampton: So thinking of this encyclical as I mean, a a
foundational text of his beliefs and as you said, his his
addition to Catholic social teachings. I'd be interested to
hear more about Pope Leo's interpretation of that in
regards to AI because then we obviously need to get to his
points about the algorithm and how that fits in.
Matt Sitman: Yes. Well, you know, with AI, kind of generally
speaking, and this this will lead into, you know, what he
says specifically about algorithms because I did check
and in Magnifica Humanitas, the encyclical, we're discussing
algorithms are mentioned by name at least 19 times.
Mike Rugnetta: Woah.
Matt Sitman: Yeah. Like, so in some ways, AI and algorithms are
they're not identical for Pope Leo. Like I think we can, you
know, disentangle them some, but his critique of them both is
basically he's very concerned about them becoming a form of
domination that is insidious and subtle because who's doing it?
Right? It's it's like it's not I or you or we or even they, it's
the algorithm doing it.
Right? And he makes that point a lot with technology, not just
the algorithm specifically, but in general with AI. He's like,
who are like, is there democratic input? You know, say
the the all the fights now in The US over data centers. Right?
It's kind of like, well, is this just a technical problem or is
this really a problem about people in a democracy having
some say over what can be built in their backyard or what are
they being you know, what laws regulate what we are seeing,
what is being fed to us. Do we have any say in this? Can there
be any democratic control? Pope Leo, he always is coming back to
the defense of human dignity and saying, can we need to take a
step back and think about how the power and control this gives
tech overlords, that gives massive corporations, what this
might do to the already rampant inequality, wealth inequality in
our societies, the jobs that might be lost. All these are
things that we should be discussing in a democratic way
and that people should have some say over.
That word domination is the one he uses a lot. An insidious
subtle form of domination because it's not coming through
like armies invading your country or a tyrannical leader
seizing political power, but it's through technologies we're
all kind of adopting just almost passively. Right? He's saying
it's it's kind of like just shaking us say, whatever you
decide. I mean, he has his own view, but it's like we are
sleepwalking into, well, something he likens to the
industrial revolution.
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I mean, in in his most recent
statements, he compares this kind of slippery slope, like,
passive adoption of AI whole cloth as a threat of ideological
colonialism. And what's interesting to me, certainly as
someone who has, I mean, virtually no relationship to the
the Pope and and the Catholic Church writ large, that so many
of of his comments kind of don't have very much to do
specifically with AI as a threat to like religion or Catholicism,
but as like an existential threat to us as people.
Matt Sitman: Yes. Totally. I mean, this is how he starts his
encyclical. I mean, he mentions humanity created in all its
grandeur by God, you know, references the biblical stories
like the Tower Of Babel and things like that. But I mean,
he's very clear that he wants to he wants to build a city founded
on the common good, to use his language.
And so that means like it's it it is not yeah. His concern is
not what does this mean for the Catholic church. It means his
concern is what does it mean for human beings? And he addresses
kind of all people of goodwill, you know, to join in these
deliberations, you know. He might use specifically Christian
language or idiom, but he does not I I think like any person of
goodwill who cares about like treating other human beings
well, you know, human dignity, that's a concept that yeah, he
talks about it as a Catholic, but he addresses this encyclical
to everyone who might make a contribution to helping us
discern the best way forward and build the common good.
Georgia Hampton: Something about this that is also very
intriguing to me, and it's interesting that you mentioned
the Industrial Revolution as a previous focus of analysis and
some concern. My curiosity is also about where the pope, I
guess, specifically exists in relation to emergent
technologies, sort of historically. Because my very
outsider presumption, I think, before this conversation was one
where it was like, oh, well, it's like the concern is of
modernity. The concern is of a certain kind of modernity that
is maybe independent of traditional religious practice?
Matt Sitman: Well, I mean, you're not wrong to to kind of
have wondered about that because there are, you know, different
popes sometimes do offer more kind of comprehensive critiques
of just, you know, like the technology becomes sort of, you
know, emblem of things that have gone wrong more broadly in
modernity. Right? Sometimes it popes have slipped into that. It
is kind of fascinating to me, like, the relationship between
popes and technology, like some of the first, like, radio
stations, you know, or the first, like, telescopes that
looked at the stars, you know, astronomy. Like, different
postures toward technology, you might say, over the centuries.
Georgia Hampton: Mean Galileo would probably have a lot to say
about Yes.
Matt Sitman: Yes. But I will say Pope Leo, one of the really
interesting things about him is he his degree as an
undergraduate was in mathematics. And he the
religious order he before becoming pope, bishop, and then
cardinal and pope that he was is a member of is the Augustinian
order. And you don't really need to know much about that other
than, you know, the vows of poverty and obedience, your
typical kind of monk like behavior or, you know, brothers,
you know. But he they needed a website at some point, and Pope
Leo just made it himself.
Oh. Like he built a website. So like my sense is this is a guy
who studied math at at Villanova back when, you know, when he was
in college and has had a keen interest in technology along the
way. He built the first website for his Augustinian order, think
just because he seems like that kind of guy, right, who's kind
of like handy and knows something about tech and has a I
would say, he's not just like this, you know, removed priest
who someone hands him a briefing on AI. I think the fact that he
chose the name he did, explained it the way he did right away.
His first day as pope meant that this is a guy who's been
thinking about technology and artificial intelligence
intelligence specifically for quite a while. And when he came
in as pope and said, this is this is our industrial
revolution, I think that says not just something about his
political instincts and values, but kind of his his own
biography and the interesting relationship Pope Leo has with
technology himself.
Georgia Hampton: Is is it right for me to assume he's like the
first online pope?
Matt Sitman: You're not wrong to assume that because, I mean, it
was pretty clear that, say, Pope Benedict the sixteenth or Pope
Francis, you know, they were of an age where, like, they really,
you know, like, I have grandparents who have never sent
or received an email. Right. I think they're kind of like maybe
in closer to that category, but Pope Leo, like, is very aware of
the kind of political discourse in The United States. And like,
there have been reports that have come out that essentially,
he's kind of online, like kind of is still on Twitter. Least at
least to kind of I've wondered, does he have a burner account?
You know? Oh my god. But like, he's aware of what people are
saying about the Catholic church himself and kind of, you know,
when he does something like put out an encyclical on artificial
intelligence, he is not simply just being handed, I think, like
a briefing book again of like tweets that people are saying or
headlines. I think he is personally engaged in a way that
I don't know all the specifics of, but I kind of believe
everything I just said, right, about where he came from in his
biography, it kind of makes sense to me that he would sort
of be keeping an eye on what people are saying about, you
know, some of his interventions in our public life. Especially,
he's the first American pope, which we haven't mentioned yet.
But so he's but I think he's really so that's kind of
interesting just in terms of technology. Like, it kind of
would be the first American who, you know, maybe has some of
these impulses, but also he knows just how deranged the
right wing of the Catholic church is in The United States.
And he knows they literally trying to kind of destroy Pope
Francis's papacy. I think Leo is like, I cannot I cannot simply
outsource this. Like, I'm an American, I'm the first American
pope.
I know what these people, you know, I know what they're up to.
I know they're up to no good. And I'm not just going to kind
of passively respond to their criticisms, but I'm going you
could I think he's engaged in a certain way and that has
something to do with his interest in in relationship to
technology.
Georgia Hampton: I do wanna talk about I don't know if it's
gauche to separate the broader practice of Catholicism or
certainly the way it exists in this country from the pope. But
I wonder where AI sits within Catholicism as a system beyond
just the pope and clearly his perspective on it.
Matt Sitman: Well, you know, I think one way to to begin to
answer that question, and I I'm gonna read from his encyclical.
This came out in May. So these were before some of the most
recent comments that prompted this conversation. But I think
this is a good example of how it might relate to Catholicism more
broadly or how you can see where it doesn't doesn't relate to it.
Leo writes, indeed, entrusting an algorithm in practice with
the power to select who is worthy or not without anyone
bearing responsibility for that judgment is to hand over the
task of redefining the boundaries of human
possibilities.
In this process, political responsibility is also lost. Not
just empathy toward those excluded which can after all be
simulated. The exclusion of the vulnerable becomes cloaked in a
veneer of neutrality and objectivity against which it
becomes difficult to raise objections. In this way,
injustice goes unnoticed and compassion, mercy and
forgiveness understood not as mere appearances but as real
political actions gradually disappear from view. So you can
see that he's not saying anything about going to church
or Catholic doctrine there, but it would also be a mistake to
not see that at some level, that phrase, the task of redefining
the boundaries of human possibilities, that could not
but be a concern of any religious faith really.
Right? Because I mean, religions, one thing they do is
they say this is what it means to be a human being. What it
means to be born, to suffer, to live, and to die. Right? And and
so there is a way in which AI is it's not a specifically Catholic
concern in the sense of all the particulars of the Catholic
faith, but in another sense, it is it goes right to the heart of
the claims the Catholic church makes.
Maybe what this the reason like Pope someone like Pope Leo has
to weigh in or why it's like such an urgent matter for him
is, does not AI isn't it actually forcing us to ask
questions about what it really and truly means to be a human
being? Like, we're really getting down to very concrete
questions of like, what is the difference between something I
write and create as a human being and something the
algorithm or the AI chatbot does? Right? That is making you
say, what does it really mean to be human? And that is something
that like, whatever else you think of them, that's what
religions have answered for us.
And so it's almost like AI is almost throwing us back on such
elemental questions of what it means to be a human being.
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I I mean, I just keep going back to your
point about what was it, Catholic social doctrine?
Matt Sitman: Yes. Mhmm.
Georgia Hampton: Because I will say again, as someone who is not
Catholic and has no relationship to Catholicism, hearing the pope
make any kind of statement about technology, before I even know
what it is, I have to admit there's a part of me that's
like, well, is the threat here that this technology will take
people away from the doctrine of Catholicism?
Matt Sitman: Yeah.
Georgia Hampton: And it's a and it's just more control. But that
kinda doesn't sound like what is going on.
Matt Sitman: I I know what that's so interesting. I know
where you're going with that or I I I'm tracking with you. And I
think part of it is because I have the same tendencies
actually. Like, I'm, you know, I'm a bit of a dissident in the
church, so, you know, I have some of those skeptical impulses
as well. But where I'm going with that is that, like it's not
a threat the technology isn't a threat to the Catholic church
per se or it's not you know, Pope Leo isn't criticizing it
because he realizes it like it's it's, you know he's not saying
what he's saying because he wants more control.
But there is a way in which I kind of wonder the extent to
which artificial intelligence, it's kind of the way we live
online now, in the place of technology and kind of like
inhabiting our consciousness. If like maybe what's going on is
like the very possibility of a rich spiritual life is being
threatened. And so, you know, like sitting in solitude, like I
often say to my friends, like, why do you go to church? And I
said, there's lots of reasons. But I said, among other things,
like, even in periods of my life where my faith was not as robust
or alive as it as it has been in others, I would still go to
church because where else in our society do you, like, sit there
quietly not looking at your phone for, you know, somewhere
between forty five minutes and a little over an hour and let
alone sit there quietly and think about your life.
And it's like there are ways in which you don't have to go to
church to do that, obviously. But I do feel like churches are
one of the, you know, number of ever shrinking number of spaces
where like quiet and solitude and thinking about your life in
a certain way is encouraged and that can be through meditation
practices, that can be through other religious traditions, that
can be through running, right, in the morning and thinking,
love being alive and I love this world. But all those things, all
impulses toward interiority and I think reflectiveness and
thoughtfulness and thinking about your life in an
intentional way are threatened by the kind of array of
technological devices and algorithms and social media
sites, like, literally or, you know, designed to make us
addicted to them.
Georgia Hampton: Mhmm.
Matt Sitman: Right? There's there's a great line of the
poet, W. H. Auden, where he says, all sin tends to be
addicting, and the terminal point of addiction is damnation.
Woah.
And I which that's, you know, really heavy to drop at this
point in the conversation. But you know what I'm saying? Like
like, I think that might be that's my very circuitous answer
to your question that I think like, yeah, what Pope Leo's
alarm, it's not like, oh, how can I talk about this to kind of
gain more power for the Catholic church, which some popes, you
know, might have done? I really think this is a truly earnest,
honest, like, cry from his heart about, like, us being on the
brink of kind of not really being fully human anymore in
terms of the way we treat each other and organize our society.
Georgia Hampton: Which is just a question of like the essential
act of being alive. Like, his comments about the algorithm and
very much them being one of of control is part of that, I
think.
Matt Sitman: The control part, you know, it's very interesting.
In the more recent comments about the algorithm specifically
that Pope Leo has made, I thought it was really
fascinating, and I'd love your reaction to this, is he's
comparing it to colonialism. Right? Like a new the algorithm
is a new form of economic domination that really a new
form of a new form of colonialism. And I think like
that kind of language may be more apt than we realize because
like what is being colonized?
Our minds and souls Yes. Among other things. Yes. Right? But
that I think what did you think of I mean, surely, you stood up
a little straighter in your chair when you start to see a
pope talking about because of the efficiency or the greater
good.
Right? Like like, some of what we're talking about is like,
what what about all the tax revenue from data centers?
Right? Well well well, yes, there are that tax revenue, but
what lives you know, what water are you willing to poison?
Right?
What what parts of the natural environment are you willing to,
you know, build these centers on? Or like, what people are you
going to displace? Or what jobs are going to be displaced?
Right? You sometimes just have to say no.
It's no. You can't do this to other people. You just can't.
And there's and there's not many voices in the world who will say
no no no no no even as the tax revenues start coming in. Even
as the even as the geopolitical competition with China takes
center stage.
Even, you know, you can name all the reasons, it'd be great to
fudge on human dignity and say, actually this group of people,
their dignity, we can actually erase the circle around it and
say it's expendable in this case. That's always a
temptation, always. And so I think one one reason, like the
passage I just moved about infinite dignity, every human
being possesses infinite dignity without exception no matter what
state they find themselves in, is because that's just not
something you hear very much.
Mike Rugnetta: That is the news we have for you this week. We
are gonna be back here in the main feed on or around Thursday,
September 10. Help us. Help us. Help us continue to make this
show by becoming a member at $4, $8, or $12 a month.
Your support makes Never Post possible. That is not an
exaggeration. Become a member at neverpo.st. Never Post's
producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the
mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior producer
is Hans Buto.
Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer, the show's host,
that's me, is Mike Ragneto. Suck up stork torso into the jet
engine like a fork in the throat so the engine goes YOLO BOGO
putt putt, flashing its famous lights like teeth though.
Excerpt of Day of Being by Joy l McSweeney. Never Post is a
production of Charts and Leisure, and it's distributed by
Radiotopia.