1 00:00:22,335 --> 00:00:25,535 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:25,535 --> 00:00:28,015 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host Mike 3 00:00:28,015 --> 00:00:32,190 Rugnetta and we have a dedicated show for you this week. 4 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,470 Contributing producer and freelance journalist based in 5 00:00:35,470 --> 00:00:39,950 Kabul, Ali Latifi tells the story of a roughly forty eight 6 00:00:39,950 --> 00:00:46,765 hour period at the 2025 when the Taliban turned off the entirety 7 00:00:46,765 --> 00:00:51,405 of the Internet in Afghanistan. His friends and neighbors 8 00:00:51,405 --> 00:00:55,885 reflect on the surprising and not so surprising impacts of 9 00:00:55,885 --> 00:01:02,410 being completely offline. And Ali reflects on how being so 10 00:01:02,650 --> 00:01:08,090 completely disconnected shifted his perspective of being online. 11 00:01:08,090 --> 00:01:12,570 First, we're gonna listen to some ads unless you're on the 12 00:01:12,570 --> 00:01:17,085 member feed and then Ali Latifi on the time the Internet got 13 00:01:17,085 --> 00:01:43,490 turned off in Afghanistan. At the time of writing, Iran's 14 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:46,625 internet has been off for about two hundred and seventy five 15 00:01:46,625 --> 00:01:50,385 hours, almost twelve days according to internet access 16 00:01:50,385 --> 00:01:54,305 watchdog group, NetBlocks, and coinciding with The United 17 00:01:54,305 --> 00:01:58,065 States and Israel's start of their coordinated bombing of the 18 00:01:58,065 --> 00:02:02,060 country. This comes not long after an extended outage in Iran 19 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:08,460 which ended, albeit slowly and incompletely, in January. From 20 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:11,500 the eighth to the twenty eighth, officials restricted access to 21 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:15,345 the larger global network in response to demonstrations 22 00:02:15,505 --> 00:02:19,025 during which their revolutionary guard killed thousands and 23 00:02:19,025 --> 00:02:23,505 potentially over 30,000 protesters who took to the 24 00:02:23,505 --> 00:02:27,570 streets because of inflation, soaring food prices, and anti 25 00:02:27,570 --> 00:02:31,250 government sentiment. It was the largest demonstration in the 26 00:02:31,250 --> 00:02:35,650 country in nearly fifty years and it spread to multiple 27 00:02:35,650 --> 00:02:36,290 cities. 28 00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:42,555 You maybe didn't hear much about it. An internet shutdown is one 29 00:02:42,555 --> 00:02:48,395 major reason why and the reason governments do it. This is an 30 00:02:48,395 --> 00:02:51,195 increasingly popular tactic amongst authoritarian 31 00:02:51,195 --> 00:02:54,715 governments and even some democratic ones. Digital rights 32 00:02:54,715 --> 00:02:58,070 group Access Now who tracks amongst other things internet 33 00:02:58,070 --> 00:03:01,590 shutdowns by government, estimates there were 78 internet 34 00:03:01,590 --> 00:03:08,710 shutdowns in 2017 and two hundred and 96 in 2024. They put 35 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:13,045 India at the top of the list with 649 shutdowns over an eight 36 00:03:13,045 --> 00:03:17,365 year period, followed by Myanmar, Iran, Pakistan, 37 00:03:17,365 --> 00:03:22,805 Ukraine, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Turkey, and so on and so on down 38 00:03:22,805 --> 00:03:24,245 the authoritarian roster. 39 00:03:25,330 --> 00:03:29,970 You may wonder hearing that list, why aren't China or Russia 40 00:03:29,970 --> 00:03:35,410 near the top? Well, Internet shutdowns are a brute force 41 00:03:35,410 --> 00:03:39,455 approach. When a country hasn't consolidated and nationalized 42 00:03:39,455 --> 00:03:42,175 its communications infrastructure and they wanna 43 00:03:42,175 --> 00:03:45,375 keep information from getting in or out, they don't have many 44 00:03:45,375 --> 00:03:49,375 options. China and Russia have more control over their 45 00:03:49,375 --> 00:03:52,670 networks. They can more easily stop certain data streams from 46 00:03:52,670 --> 00:03:55,710 entering and in many scenarios leaving. 47 00:03:56,350 --> 00:04:00,030 Though of course information as Stuart Brand proclaimed wants to 48 00:04:00,030 --> 00:04:04,190 be free and it often ends up being a national infrastructural 49 00:04:04,190 --> 00:04:08,975 game of cat and mouse. In 2025 for instance, Russia engaged in 50 00:04:08,975 --> 00:04:11,775 broad scale shutdowns and restrictions especially for 51 00:04:11,775 --> 00:04:16,495 mobile devices to thwart, they said, Ukrainian drone attacks. 52 00:04:16,495 --> 00:04:21,070 But the blocks were widely circumvented with VPN use. It's 53 00:04:21,070 --> 00:04:23,950 probably also worth pointing out here that China and Russia and 54 00:04:23,950 --> 00:04:27,230 Israel and Sudan and a few others may not turn the Internet 55 00:04:27,230 --> 00:04:31,230 off within their own borders, but often enact shutdowns on 56 00:04:31,230 --> 00:04:35,790 their neighbors, Myanmar, Ukraine, Palestine, Syria, Laos, 57 00:04:35,915 --> 00:04:40,955 Bahrain, and so on. All this to say, China and Russia don't need 58 00:04:40,955 --> 00:04:42,475 to shut off the Internet. 59 00:04:42,875 --> 00:04:51,310 They have their own. This is the direction Iran is headed as 60 00:04:51,310 --> 00:04:54,110 well. They've consolidated control of their communications 61 00:04:54,110 --> 00:04:56,750 infrastructure and they're able to keep citizens on their 62 00:04:56,750 --> 00:05:02,190 national intranet while blocking access to the global internet. 63 00:05:02,670 --> 00:05:06,145 This means national services like banks, government websites, 64 00:05:06,305 --> 00:05:08,785 and national media channels useful for disseminating 65 00:05:08,785 --> 00:05:13,505 propaganda remain operational. Access to global social media to 66 00:05:13,505 --> 00:05:16,945 report on what's happening is blocked unless of course you're 67 00:05:16,945 --> 00:05:18,465 a high up government official. 68 00:05:18,865 --> 00:05:22,400 And of course with a single national Internet, everyone is 69 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,760 just that much easier to surveil. Last fall, the Taliban, 70 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,800 the ruling government in Afghanistan, blocked the 71 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,455 Internet nationwide for about forty eight hours. They said 72 00:05:35,455 --> 00:05:40,015 this was to prevent immoral activity, a measure taken to 73 00:05:40,015 --> 00:05:44,575 prevent vice, one official said. Though there was speculation the 74 00:05:44,575 --> 00:05:48,495 reasoning was much broader and like the blocks in Iran were 75 00:05:48,495 --> 00:05:51,170 meant to keep citizens from communicating with the outside 76 00:05:51,170 --> 00:05:55,330 world, especially following a massive earthquake in the East. 77 00:05:56,050 --> 00:05:59,730 The Taliban has not consolidated control of their communications 78 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:00,610 infrastructure. 79 00:06:00,930 --> 00:06:05,735 They have no half measures to employ, no filtering to use. 80 00:06:06,055 --> 00:06:11,335 They literally just cut the cables and with very little 81 00:06:11,335 --> 00:06:16,695 warning. What happened next is a revealing portrait of the ways 82 00:06:16,695 --> 00:06:20,590 the Internet, the global Internet dominates everyday life 83 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:25,150 even in places we may think of as remote. We discuss on this 84 00:06:25,150 --> 00:06:29,390 show the travails of social media, the immorality of tech 85 00:06:29,390 --> 00:06:33,185 barons, but it is in stories like this that we see how the 86 00:06:33,185 --> 00:06:38,305 Internet is a much larger thing, a literal lifeline to many while 87 00:06:38,305 --> 00:06:42,945 also being still an extractive entity, a machine of 88 00:06:42,945 --> 00:06:49,250 exploitation, a distraction from other parts of our lives. After 89 00:06:49,250 --> 00:06:51,890 we take a short break, contributing producer Ali Latifi 90 00:06:51,890 --> 00:06:56,610 was there in Afghanistan when the internet was shut off. 91 00:06:57,010 --> 00:07:01,845 He asked his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances what that two 92 00:07:01,845 --> 00:07:03,445 days was like. 93 00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:21,300 Speaker 2: Not confirmed, but just received this. In 94 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:24,820 accordance with the decree of the supreme leader, Internet 95 00:07:24,820 --> 00:07:29,525 services will be discontinued starting from 5PM today in 96 00:07:29,525 --> 00:07:30,405 Kabul. 97 00:07:31,365 --> 00:07:36,405 Ali Latifi: It's around 02:30PM on 09/29/2025 when I receive 98 00:07:36,405 --> 00:07:38,245 this message on WhatsApp. 99 00:07:38,485 --> 00:07:42,020 Speaker 2: The network will be permanently disconnected until 100 00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:46,260 further notice, resulting in a twenty four hour outage each 101 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:51,060 day. Additionally, certain other networks will experience daily 102 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:55,005 Internet suspensions from 5PM to 8AM. 103 00:07:55,245 --> 00:07:57,645 Ali Latifi: I immediately forward it to a friend who was 104 00:07:57,645 --> 00:08:01,725 close with the government asking, true? His response is 105 00:08:01,725 --> 00:08:08,420 simple. Yes. In case he's right, I send it to a human rights 106 00:08:08,420 --> 00:08:12,340 researcher in Europe. Because the message mentioned the mobile 107 00:08:12,340 --> 00:08:16,660 network I've had since 2011, I immediately rush to the office 108 00:08:16,660 --> 00:08:20,340 of another carrier near my home and sign up for a new eSIM. 109 00:08:21,380 --> 00:08:26,295 An hour later, I'm back home with nothing to do but wait and 110 00:08:26,295 --> 00:08:35,590 see. A few years ago, I would have panicked. But by 2025, I'm 111 00:08:35,590 --> 00:08:38,150 accustomed to uncertain political and security claims in 112 00:08:38,150 --> 00:08:42,310 Afghanistan. There's no option in these situations but to sit 113 00:08:42,310 --> 00:08:46,950 and wait and see. 05:00, it's happening. 114 00:08:51,165 --> 00:08:53,325 Suha: Damn. Disconnected. 115 00:08:53,725 --> 00:08:58,205 Ali Latifi: In ten minutes, all my devices disconnect. It's all 116 00:08:58,205 --> 00:09:04,285 down. No signal on either SIM, no WiFi, no calls, and no texts. 117 00:09:04,170 --> 00:09:08,570 Texts. Tens of millions of Avrons are suddenly and swiftly 118 00:09:08,570 --> 00:09:11,450 cut off from each other and the outside world. 119 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:18,490 Hoping the text is true and the Internet will be back by the 120 00:09:18,490 --> 00:09:23,895 morning, I decide to just wait it out and watch or rewatch what 121 00:09:23,895 --> 00:09:27,575 movies were downloaded to my computer. But first, a drink of 122 00:09:27,575 --> 00:09:31,735 water. I bent to grab a bottle and hit my head against the 123 00:09:31,735 --> 00:09:35,110 metal hook. I never noticed it protruding out of the 124 00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:37,910 refrigerator. There's blood in my hair. 125 00:09:38,390 --> 00:09:41,910 It reminds me of the time I was hit by a motorcycle in Istanbul. 126 00:09:42,150 --> 00:09:46,070 I panic and rush downstairs to the pharmacy down the street. 127 00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:50,805 Did you get in a fight? Asked the pharmacist. I avoid the 128 00:09:50,805 --> 00:09:51,365 question. 129 00:09:51,925 --> 00:09:56,805 It seems better than admitting my refrigerator attacked me. He 130 00:09:56,805 --> 00:10:01,525 gives me iodine, some cotton swabs, and pills. I head home. 131 00:10:02,005 --> 00:10:05,440 Movie time. Movies I can't even log on letterboxed. 132 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,120 What I end up watching over the next forty eight hours is highly 133 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:09,920 ironic. 134 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,360 Ramin: All I have are negative thoughts. 135 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,720 Ali Latifi: Joker. No wizard that there is or was. Wicked. 136 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:19,440 You can act 137 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:20,215 Samir: like a man. 138 00:10:20,215 --> 00:10:20,855 Ali Latifi: The Godfather 139 00:10:21,095 --> 00:10:22,135 Samir: You can stop my war. 140 00:10:22,215 --> 00:10:25,255 Ali Latifi: The Hunchback of Notre Dame I will decide. And 141 00:10:25,255 --> 00:10:31,655 doubt What's important. The next forty eight hours are a blur of 142 00:10:31,655 --> 00:10:36,340 confusion and anticipation. Everyone is constantly checking 143 00:10:36,340 --> 00:10:44,500 to see if the Internet and phone services are back. Suha, a 20 144 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:48,755 year old online entrepreneur in Kabul, is in disbelief at the 145 00:10:48,755 --> 00:10:49,715 sudden cuts. 146 00:10:49,955 --> 00:10:52,595 She can't fathom that the Islamic Emirate could be so 147 00:10:52,595 --> 00:10:53,395 audacious. 148 00:10:53,395 --> 00:10:58,915 Suha: Because we all know that every system of a country is 149 00:10:58,915 --> 00:11:01,715 reliant on Internet and technology in general. 150 00:11:02,970 --> 00:11:04,410 Ali Latifi: Turns out she was wrong. 151 00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:08,410 Suha: Unfortunately, in our society that turned out to be 152 00:11:08,410 --> 00:11:09,130 possible. 153 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:12,410 Ali Latifi: Once people move beyond the shock, it's two days 154 00:11:12,410 --> 00:11:15,850 full of speculation and rumors. Did Donald Trump really live up 155 00:11:15,850 --> 00:11:18,855 to his threats? And is he actually at the Bagram Air Base 156 00:11:18,855 --> 00:11:21,895 right now? Is the Islamic Emirates secretive supreme 157 00:11:21,895 --> 00:11:25,575 leader, Habatullah Khunzada, in Kabul, and we just don't know 158 00:11:25,575 --> 00:11:29,575 it? Or is all of this the setup for a coup d'etat that we don't 159 00:11:29,575 --> 00:11:30,535 even know is underway? 160 00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:33,690 Something that my parents' generation are very used to by 161 00:11:33,690 --> 00:11:40,170 now. Farah works for an Internet provider and teaches online, and 162 00:11:40,170 --> 00:11:58,525 she describes the uncertainty that pervades over Kabul. She 163 00:11:58,525 --> 00:12:02,230 says being so cut off from the city, country, and the entire 164 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:13,655 world left her feeling like a child. Greatest fear is that 165 00:12:13,655 --> 00:12:17,815 this marked the beginning of the end. The moment we had all been 166 00:12:17,815 --> 00:12:22,775 dreading since 08/15/2021 when the former president ran away 167 00:12:22,775 --> 00:12:25,015 and the Taliban returned to Kabul. 168 00:12:25,575 --> 00:12:28,630 Are we officially going back to the strict rule of the nineteen 169 00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:34,790 nineties Islamic Emirate? Really though, these forty eight hours 170 00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:38,790 are a reminder of just how much of our lives in the twenty first 171 00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:44,505 century depend on the Internet. Al Saeed, a resident of the 172 00:12:44,505 --> 00:12:46,505 northern city of Mazar Sharif, puts it 173 00:12:48,905 --> 00:12:52,825 Saeed: Basically, all life, social life, everything, it all 174 00:12:52,825 --> 00:12:53,705 came to standstill. 175 00:12:56,690 --> 00:13:00,130 Ali Latifi: I'm a journalist, and I have to wonder what the 176 00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:06,370 world is saying. Obviously, there's no way to check, but I 177 00:13:06,370 --> 00:13:10,530 still have to ask, has it made the news? Are people talking 178 00:13:10,530 --> 00:13:13,775 about it? Am I being bombarded with media requests I can't 179 00:13:13,775 --> 00:13:17,775 possibly respond to? Do they know I can't respond? 180 00:13:21,535 --> 00:13:25,790 As the hours pass, all any of us can do is constantly check our 181 00:13:25,790 --> 00:13:29,790 phones as we slowly realize how many simple things we can no 182 00:13:29,790 --> 00:13:39,605 longer do. In Mazar Sharif, Afghanistan's main city in the 183 00:13:39,605 --> 00:13:43,925 North, Syed notices just how much financial transactions are 184 00:13:43,925 --> 00:13:44,645 affected. 185 00:13:46,085 --> 00:13:49,445 Saeed: The money exchanges were shut, financial services overall 186 00:13:49,445 --> 00:13:53,430 were halted, banks were closed, there was no real access to 187 00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:53,910 money. 188 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:57,590 Ali Latifi: Samir from the western city of Herod, one of 189 00:13:57,590 --> 00:14:01,350 Afghanistan's business and touristic hubs, notices that the 190 00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:06,105 17 kilometer road leading to the airport is strangely quiet. 191 00:14:07,705 --> 00:14:13,225 Samir: Flights were all canceled. No flights in or out 192 00:14:13,225 --> 00:14:14,265 of Iraq. 193 00:14:14,265 --> 00:14:16,665 Ali Latifi: Though I myself live only a few minutes from Kabul 194 00:14:16,665 --> 00:14:21,630 International, airplanes didn't even cross my mind. At least not 195 00:14:21,630 --> 00:14:25,470 until I unexpectedly run into a friend I hadn't seen in what 196 00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:28,750 seemed like years after getting takeaway from a Yemeni 197 00:14:28,750 --> 00:14:31,470 restaurant. If you can't have the Internet, you can at least 198 00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:36,605 have chicken kabzah. Masood and I are sitting in the tables 199 00:14:36,605 --> 00:14:40,205 outside the ice cream shop. We're talking about our primary 200 00:14:40,205 --> 00:14:44,845 concern, the fact that the ATMs are all off and neither of us 201 00:14:44,845 --> 00:14:47,325 ever bothered to open a bank account in Afghanistan. 202 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,120 This means I have to come back every few hours and check if the 203 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,560 machines are working again. At least I'm getting my steps in. 204 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,915 Over pistachio and vanilla ice cream at the mall, I tell Masud 205 00:15:01,915 --> 00:15:05,755 that if the ATMs don't reopen, I'll have to ask a rich doctor 206 00:15:05,755 --> 00:15:11,515 relative for a cash loan to tide me over. It all brings me back 207 00:15:11,515 --> 00:15:15,600 to August 2021 when the Taliban had just returned to power and 208 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,320 the entire financial system was in disarray. 209 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 8: People's access to banks and to cash remains a real 210 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,440 problem. The banks have largely remained closed. When they are 211 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,575 open, there are strict limits on how much you can withdraw. 212 00:15:31,095 --> 00:15:33,975 Ali Latifi: At the time, I had to beg my employer to send me US 213 00:15:33,975 --> 00:15:37,175 dollars because I was down to the equivalent of $11 in 214 00:15:37,175 --> 00:15:41,175 Afghanis. The effects of this Internet shutdown are much 215 00:15:41,175 --> 00:15:41,735 worse, though. 216 00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:47,450 Suha: Business online. There is Instagram. I ran an online 217 00:15:47,450 --> 00:15:51,210 clothing business via Instagram, and I had clients who had orders 218 00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:54,330 that needed to be delivered for their events on those days. 219 00:15:56,315 --> 00:15:59,675 Ali Latifi: Suha, the online entrepreneur, says it costs her 220 00:15:59,675 --> 00:16:03,355 hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars in business. 221 00:16:03,595 --> 00:16:09,035 Suha: But I couldn't get their orders to them because I 222 00:16:09,035 --> 00:16:12,550 couldn't even get in contact with the delivery companies who 223 00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:15,910 would deliver their orders. By the time the Internet was 224 00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:19,350 restored, most of them had canceled their orders because 225 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:23,510 they needed them on those specific dates for their events. 226 00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:28,065 And since I couldn't deliver their orders on time, they just 227 00:16:28,065 --> 00:16:30,065 canceled them entirely. For 228 00:16:32,065 --> 00:16:35,185 Ali Latifi: a small business in Kabul, even that much can have a 229 00:16:35,185 --> 00:16:39,530 devastating effect. I've gone to Ramin, a tailor, to sew 230 00:16:39,530 --> 00:16:43,770 everything from avani clothes to sheets for years and he reminds 231 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:48,970 me how small businesses are so interlinked. When I enter the 232 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:52,010 store he's talking to another colleague while staring intently 233 00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:54,975 at a sheet of measurements. A client had an event to go to 234 00:16:54,975 --> 00:16:58,015 that night, and they were trying to remember how he wanted his 235 00:16:58,015 --> 00:17:01,375 clothes cut. Only there was no way to reach him. 236 00:17:01,375 --> 00:17:07,775 Ramin: He invited 700 people to this wedding. Only 200 show up. 237 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:12,460 500 people didn't come the wedding. We had a bunch of 238 00:17:12,460 --> 00:17:18,060 customers, who had events on that time and just had to cancel 239 00:17:18,060 --> 00:17:18,220 them. 240 00:17:20,985 --> 00:17:24,665 Ali Latifi: It's not just small businesses, though. Mohammad, an 241 00:17:24,665 --> 00:17:27,945 NGO worker, said the macroeconomic effects were 242 00:17:27,945 --> 00:17:28,745 sprawling. 243 00:17:28,905 --> 00:17:32,790 Mohammad: For instance, businesses that had goods coming 244 00:17:32,790 --> 00:17:36,630 from outside, their products were stacked at customs because 245 00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:38,550 imports and exports were stopped. 246 00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:42,790 Ali Latifi: Samir lives in Herat, a province that lies 247 00:17:42,790 --> 00:17:47,270 directly along the 921 kilometer border with Iran. He saw just 248 00:17:47,270 --> 00:17:50,445 how much cross border trade, whether that be goods or 249 00:17:50,445 --> 00:17:52,285 currency exchanges, were affected. 250 00:17:53,645 --> 00:17:57,085 Samir: The money exchange were left with nothing to do to find 251 00:17:57,085 --> 00:18:01,580 out the exchange rates. The exchange will have to go all the 252 00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:05,660 way to Islamabad border until the Internet actually was 253 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:10,700 restored. Every day at 8AM, something like a thousand cars 254 00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:16,105 would go to border and stay until two 02:30 in the 255 00:18:16,105 --> 00:18:16,825 afternoon. 256 00:18:19,465 --> 00:18:22,025 Ali Latifi: Faid from Mazor E Sharif, considered one of 257 00:18:22,025 --> 00:18:25,510 Afghanistan's main connection points to Central Asia, said 258 00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:28,550 being cut off from regional trade also affected domestic 259 00:18:28,550 --> 00:18:29,190 markets. 260 00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:33,270 Ramin: People 261 00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:39,190 Saeed: had no idea how to price things, what to sell something 262 00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:42,905 for, whether it was the commodities or money markets. It 263 00:18:42,905 --> 00:18:45,865 was all shut. No one knew how to price things. 264 00:18:45,865 --> 00:18:47,065 Samir: But 265 00:18:49,785 --> 00:18:52,105 Ali Latifi: you didn't have to travel far to see the impacts. 266 00:18:52,860 --> 00:18:56,780 Even the most basic aspects of daily social life are impacted. 267 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,500 Saeed: You know how we are. If someone goes out and they are 268 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:07,100 even a little late, we are quick to call them and see where they 269 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:10,705 are. But, obviously, no one could get any information. We 270 00:19:10,865 --> 00:19:13,985 had to do, like, back in the day and send someone out to the 271 00:19:13,985 --> 00:19:15,665 street to find out where that person was. 272 00:19:20,250 --> 00:19:22,810 Ali Latifi: What Saiz is describing is something that 273 00:19:22,810 --> 00:19:26,410 annoys all Afghans, the fact that your parents are constantly 274 00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:30,570 calling. Some people, though, had actual reasons to be 275 00:19:30,570 --> 00:19:33,530 concerned with the fact that you couldn't even make a phone call 276 00:19:33,530 --> 00:19:38,075 to check on a relative or a friend. Hamed, an NGO worker in 277 00:19:38,075 --> 00:19:41,355 Kabul, says a colleague of his lived through what we were all 278 00:19:41,355 --> 00:19:46,315 so afraid of, not being able to get in contact during an actual 279 00:19:46,315 --> 00:19:47,355 emergency situation. 280 00:19:55,610 --> 00:19:58,250 Hamed: One of my colleagues in the office lives in Kabul, but 281 00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:02,185 he is from Khazni province. And that very morning, his mother 282 00:20:02,185 --> 00:20:07,865 had died. Since phones were not working either, his brother had 283 00:20:07,865 --> 00:20:11,785 to come to Kabul. When he got to the house, his family informed 284 00:20:11,785 --> 00:20:17,100 him that his brother was in the office. So he went to the 285 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:20,700 office, but even there, since he couldn't call his brother to 286 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:23,420 come out, he was denied entry to the office. 287 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:28,860 He had to create quite a scene and finally, when the security 288 00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:32,215 came out to talk to him directly, explain the situation. 289 00:20:34,375 --> 00:20:38,855 It took until noon to sort out, and then they headed to Khazni. 290 00:20:41,575 --> 00:20:45,895 By the time they reached Khazni, the funeral of their late mother 291 00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:54,030 had almost taken place. So these were the issues, and all had 292 00:20:54,030 --> 00:20:54,670 such challenges. 293 00:21:07,385 --> 00:21:10,505 Ali Latifi: Farah, who works for an Internet provider, says being 294 00:21:10,505 --> 00:21:14,290 cut off came at an especially trying time for her. She had 295 00:21:14,290 --> 00:21:18,050 just lost her father a few days prior. With no Internet or 296 00:21:18,050 --> 00:21:21,890 mobile phone access, she felt utterly alone at one of the most 297 00:21:21,890 --> 00:21:41,105 difficult times of her life. Given the uncertainty and 298 00:21:41,105 --> 00:21:44,960 confusion that had gripped the city, Farah said she couldn't 299 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,000 even will herself to go out and try to find her friends herself. 300 00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:13,290 But some people seem to find the strangest silver linings. 301 00:22:13,610 --> 00:22:18,570 Jabbar, a 22 year old student in Kabul, says when people aren't 302 00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:21,130 scrolling through their phones, they can actually look at one 303 00:22:21,130 --> 00:22:23,530 another, even talk to each other. 304 00:22:23,610 --> 00:22:24,810 Jabar: What else is there to do? 305 00:22:25,815 --> 00:22:27,895 Ali Latifi: Well, whatever happened to that game we used to 306 00:22:27,895 --> 00:22:30,295 play before television was invented? It was called 307 00:22:30,295 --> 00:22:33,895 conversation. In the twenty first century, mobile phones 308 00:22:33,895 --> 00:22:37,015 have clearly replaced television, especially in the 309 00:22:37,015 --> 00:22:40,055 Islamic Emirate where so much of what can be broadcast is so 310 00:22:40,055 --> 00:22:40,935 tightly regulated. 311 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:46,980 Jabar: The shutdown of the Internet did have some benefits. 312 00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:50,020 Though, because people's addiction to the Internet was 313 00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:53,460 very real, people weren't speaking to one another or 314 00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:56,635 hanging out with each other in person. This did create the 315 00:22:56,635 --> 00:22:59,435 opportunity for people to actually have to sit down and 316 00:22:59,435 --> 00:23:03,195 talk with one another directly for a few days instead of being 317 00:23:03,195 --> 00:23:06,555 glued to the Internet to find time for their families. 318 00:23:07,435 --> 00:23:10,155 Ali Latifi: Turns out, other people were thinking pretty much 319 00:23:10,155 --> 00:23:14,160 the same thing Because within hours of the Internet being 320 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,720 restored on the afternoon of October 1, there was a video on 321 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,200 TikTok that said pretty much the same thing. 322 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 13: Baba Sameer. Baba Sameer. The Internet is fixed. 323 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,715 The Internet is fixed? Really? 324 00:23:27,715 --> 00:23:31,475 Yes. Forget it. What do you need with the Internet? For the two 325 00:23:31,475 --> 00:23:34,195 nights that there was no Internet, I sat with my family. 326 00:23:34,515 --> 00:23:35,715 They're such good people. 327 00:23:36,115 --> 00:23:40,435 My little nephew has gotten so big. I swear to God, now I know 328 00:23:40,435 --> 00:23:41,155 I have a family. 329 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,320 Ali Latifi: October 1 also happens to be Jabbar's birthday. 330 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,600 I'm on my way there for dinner when I stop outside a samosa 331 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,040 shop to buy some for the gathering. From the corner of my 332 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,885 eye, I see something I haven't seen in forty eight hours. A man 333 00:23:58,885 --> 00:24:02,645 is speaking Pashto into his phone. Clocking that I'm 334 00:24:02,645 --> 00:24:05,845 incredulous, the Samosa seller says in Pashto, yeah, it just 335 00:24:05,845 --> 00:24:06,565 came back. 336 00:24:07,365 --> 00:24:11,570 I immediately check my phone. There are bars. I start to get 337 00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:16,370 alerts from WhatsApp, Instagram, Outlook. Before the food comes 338 00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:20,450 up, I'm on my phone. The first thing I do is call my mother in 339 00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:21,410 California. 340 00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,170 After she scolds me for a few seconds, she asks me for the 341 00:24:25,170 --> 00:24:29,945 details of what it's like. She's surprisingly speaking of it like 342 00:24:29,945 --> 00:24:33,145 some kind of neighborhood gossip rather than a test of a nation's 343 00:24:33,145 --> 00:24:37,625 endurance in the twenty first century. Walking to the birthday 344 00:24:37,625 --> 00:24:41,545 party, I see everyone joyfully looking at their phones, calling 345 00:24:41,545 --> 00:24:46,220 and happily posing for their first post in two days. When I 346 00:24:46,220 --> 00:24:50,220 get to the party, it's all documented on Facebook, 347 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:56,140 WhatsApp, Instagram, and Snapchat. I'm taken by how 348 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,300 quickly everything returns to normal. 349 00:24:59,045 --> 00:25:01,765 Almost as if the last forty eight hours were all just 350 00:25:02,005 --> 00:25:04,645 Speaker 13: Super easy. Barely an inconvenience. 351 00:25:05,765 --> 00:25:07,845 Ali Latifi: Less than thirty minutes after everything turns 352 00:25:07,845 --> 00:25:12,270 back on, everyone is back on their phones. It's a cacophony 353 00:25:12,270 --> 00:25:17,310 of TikTok videos and Instagram reels that fill the room. The 354 00:25:17,310 --> 00:25:22,430 fervor, confusion, and worry are all gone. Everyone is sated once 355 00:25:22,430 --> 00:25:30,965 again. I was sitting there watching men and women, young 356 00:25:30,965 --> 00:25:36,005 and old, boomers to Gen X to millennials to Gen Z, all 357 00:25:36,005 --> 00:25:37,045 returning to normal. 358 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:42,260 I'm struck by how quickly and easily everyone falls back into 359 00:25:42,260 --> 00:25:46,980 their old habits. Maybe I'm naive, but I had just spent the 360 00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:50,500 last few weeks helping with the coverage of Gen z protests that 361 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:53,295 led to the downfall of the government in Nepal, something 362 00:25:53,295 --> 00:25:56,255 that was kick started by a proposed social media ban. A 363 00:25:56,255 --> 00:25:59,135 year prior, I had helped cover the downfall of Bangladesh's 364 00:25:59,135 --> 00:26:02,495 autocratic leader, Sheikh Hasina, which came after weeks 365 00:26:02,495 --> 00:26:06,735 of youth led protests. Similar Gen Z protests had taken place 366 00:26:06,735 --> 00:26:13,350 across Indonesia and The Philippines. I had hoped that in 367 00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:17,910 Afghanistan, after forty eight hours of being cut off from each 368 00:26:17,910 --> 00:26:21,350 other and the whole world, there would be at least something 369 00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:21,670 more. 370 00:26:22,095 --> 00:26:27,215 If not anger and people taking to the streets, then at least 371 00:26:27,215 --> 00:26:31,375 people discussing what had happened, thinking about it, any 372 00:26:31,375 --> 00:26:36,095 reaction. It didn't have to be anger, but just something to 373 00:26:36,095 --> 00:26:41,650 show that a major unprecedented world event had just taken place 374 00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:48,210 for all of us. But it turns out in Afghanistan, we were all just 375 00:26:48,770 --> 00:27:11,930 happy to be back online. I think back to the song. By the next 376 00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:17,290 morning, October 2, I'm at a cafe, MacBook and iPhone in 377 00:27:17,290 --> 00:27:17,850 hand. 378 00:27:19,050 --> 00:27:23,065 There is some lingering talk, mostly, wasn't that weird? And 379 00:27:23,065 --> 00:27:31,065 I'm glad it's back, but that's really the most of it. I'm left 380 00:27:31,065 --> 00:27:34,025 to wonder, is this the end result of our social media 381 00:27:34,025 --> 00:27:40,330 obsessed society? Have we really become the humans in Wall E, 382 00:27:40,650 --> 00:27:43,370 gluttonous and obsessed with what's in front of our faces? 383 00:27:43,610 --> 00:27:47,370 Have we as a global society become like the resident of 384 00:27:47,370 --> 00:27:50,330 Aldous Huxley's London, hooked to Soma? 385 00:27:51,045 --> 00:27:55,365 In this case, content on Instagram, on TikTok, and 386 00:27:55,365 --> 00:28:00,245 YouTube. Or in a country that in my parents' lifetime saw an 387 00:28:00,245 --> 00:28:03,870 absolute monarchy turn to a constitutional one, to pseudo 388 00:28:03,870 --> 00:28:07,230 democracy, to Soviet occupied communism, to a majority led 389 00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:10,510 government, to the first Taliban Islamic Emirate, to an 390 00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:13,310 approximation of Western democracy under US occupation, 391 00:28:13,630 --> 00:28:17,475 to a second Taliban run Islamic Emirate, have people just 392 00:28:17,475 --> 00:28:32,970 started to feel helpless and hopeless. The truth is I can't 393 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:36,810 say I blame them. If the last few months have taught us 394 00:28:36,810 --> 00:28:40,090 anything, it's that this didn't end with the Islamic Emirate. 395 00:28:41,975 --> 00:28:45,575 Only a couple of weeks prior to Afghanistan's Internet blackout, 396 00:28:45,895 --> 00:28:49,175 pundits and politicians in The US were seriously questioning 397 00:28:49,175 --> 00:28:52,215 whether the Internet was to blame for the public killing of 398 00:28:52,215 --> 00:28:54,215 conservative firebrand, Charlie Kirk. 399 00:28:56,870 --> 00:29:01,590 In 1999, video games and rock stars and to a lesser extent of 400 00:29:01,590 --> 00:29:04,630 still fledgling Internet were cast with the blame for 401 00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:13,875 Columbine. In 2025, the Internet and social media became the 402 00:29:13,875 --> 00:29:16,915 alleged accelerant of what was being billed as an inevitable 403 00:29:16,915 --> 00:29:18,755 spate of political killings. 404 00:29:18,755 --> 00:29:20,355 Speaker 13: When you consider that young men are often 405 00:29:20,355 --> 00:29:24,355 carrying out these kinds of acts of violence after becoming 406 00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:24,930 radicalized online. 407 00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:27,090 Speaker 14: I believe that social media has played a direct 408 00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:30,530 role in every single assassination and assassination 409 00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:33,890 attempt that we have seen over the last five, six years. 410 00:29:36,130 --> 00:29:39,755 Ali Latifi: Australia banned social media for anyone 16. They 411 00:29:39,755 --> 00:29:43,035 say they'll help any other country implement such policies. 412 00:29:43,515 --> 00:29:46,875 India imposed a three hour deadline for platforms to delete 413 00:29:46,875 --> 00:29:50,315 anything the Modi government, which has long been accused of 414 00:29:50,315 --> 00:29:53,910 disenfranchising and abusing religious minorities, finds to 415 00:29:53,910 --> 00:29:58,310 be false or misleading. Joseph Gordon Levitt, the star of one 416 00:29:58,310 --> 00:30:01,030 of my favorite romantic comedies, The Five Hundred Days 417 00:30:01,030 --> 00:30:05,590 of Summer, called for section two thirty to be repealed. It 418 00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:08,855 protects companies from facing lawsuits over content users post 419 00:30:08,855 --> 00:30:10,055 on their platforms. 420 00:30:11,735 --> 00:30:14,855 Larry Ellison, the noted Zionist and a close associate of 421 00:30:14,855 --> 00:30:19,430 Benjamin Netanyahu purchased TikTok in The US, a move that is 422 00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:23,510 lauded by everyone from Donald Trump to Hillary Clinton. It 423 00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:26,790 also resulted in allegations of censorship of pro Palestine 424 00:30:26,790 --> 00:30:31,110 voices on TikTok. The Islamic Emirate may have been the most 425 00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:34,765 stringent and the most sudden with their actions, but they're 426 00:30:34,765 --> 00:30:37,165 far from the only government in the world trying to control 427 00:30:37,165 --> 00:30:44,605 people's access to online content. In the end, we're still 428 00:30:44,605 --> 00:30:48,800 not certain what happened in Afghanistan. The Islamic Emirate 429 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,280 acknowledged that communication was cut off for forty eight 430 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:51,840 hours. 431 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,160 But as usual, they stopped short of any real explanation of why 432 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,325 or how it happened. But maybe that's just it. As much as 433 00:31:00,325 --> 00:31:02,645 governments are working to restrict and regulate Internet 434 00:31:02,645 --> 00:31:09,765 access, the truth is it's become a part of our lives. When I sit 435 00:31:09,765 --> 00:31:12,740 and watch my family and friends in Afghanistan and The US 436 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:16,340 scrolling through Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, I realize 437 00:31:16,340 --> 00:31:20,660 that it's come to mean so much to so many. To my family in The 438 00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:23,220 US, it's their way of keeping track of daily life in 439 00:31:23,220 --> 00:31:23,780 Afghanistan. 440 00:31:24,135 --> 00:31:27,095 They watch YouTubers and influencers travel the country. 441 00:31:27,735 --> 00:31:30,535 And then they ask me if I've been to the new million dollar 442 00:31:30,535 --> 00:31:33,735 restaurant or if I went to the same earthquake stricken 443 00:31:33,735 --> 00:31:40,490 villages of Herat and Pattikar they saw online. I'm old enough 444 00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:42,730 to remember waking up in the middle of the night as my 445 00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:45,850 parents screamed into the phone to check on relatives in 446 00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:49,450 Peshawar or trying to make their way out of Toshkant on what 447 00:31:49,450 --> 00:31:52,490 would be their long journey to the Bay Area suburbs I grew up 448 00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:57,295 in. To my family, friends, and neighbors in Afghanistan, the 449 00:31:57,295 --> 00:32:00,735 Internet is a window to the outside world, a world that 450 00:32:00,735 --> 00:32:04,735 looks strange and confounding at times. How could Kendall and 451 00:32:04,735 --> 00:32:06,575 Kylie let their father become a woman? 452 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,800 Why is the president of The United States blathering 453 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:15,560 incoherently at a debate? And most importantly, have I finally 454 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:22,795 managed to watch all of Naruto? Spoiler no. The Islamic Emirate 455 00:32:22,795 --> 00:32:26,395 is certainly portrayed as the most nefarious to do it, but it 456 00:32:26,395 --> 00:32:28,795 seems as if the lesson that the world learned from our forty 457 00:32:28,795 --> 00:32:32,475 eight hours is kind of basic. Yeah. 458 00:32:32,475 --> 00:32:38,220 The Taliban are bad, but we're not them. A Taliban led 459 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:41,580 government may get all the blame, but it seems like so many 460 00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:45,420 others are moving far too quickly to strip their citizens 461 00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:48,700 of rights to free speech and the Internet. 462 00:33:58,045 --> 00:33:59,885 Mike Rugnetta: That is the show we have for you this week. We're 463 00:33:59,885 --> 00:34:03,080 gonna be back here in the main feed on or around Thursday, 464 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,320 March 19. Thank you so much to contributing producer Ali Latifi 465 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,920 for this story. Thanks also to our pseudonymous Afghans for 466 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:17,085 sharing their experiences. They were Suha, Farah, Saeed, Samir, 467 00:34:17,165 --> 00:34:20,765 Ramin, Mohammed, Hamid, and Jabbar. 468 00:34:21,325 --> 00:34:25,965 Thanks also to the folks who revoiced their tape in English. 469 00:34:26,285 --> 00:34:31,725 Thank you to Sana Muradi, Fatima Hosseini, Haroun Rahimi, Nasir, 470 00:34:32,090 --> 00:34:41,850 Ahmad Azizi, and Said. Did you know you can become a member of 471 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:46,325 Never Post for the low low low low low cost of $4 a month? It's 472 00:34:46,325 --> 00:34:50,085 true. Head on over to neverpo.st and become a member today to 473 00:34:50,085 --> 00:34:52,805 help us continue to make episodes like this one, which 474 00:34:52,805 --> 00:34:56,405 require significant time, effort, and cost. 475 00:34:56,565 --> 00:34:59,685 The more support we have, the more adventurous and the more 476 00:34:59,685 --> 00:35:04,330 impactful stories we can produce. Neverpo.st, a measly $4 477 00:35:04,330 --> 00:35:15,770 a month. Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia 478 00:35:15,770 --> 00:35:18,125 Hampton and the Mysterious, doctor first name, last name. 479 00:35:18,125 --> 00:35:21,005 Our senior producer is Hans Vutto. Our executive producer is 480 00:35:21,005 --> 00:35:24,445 Jason Oberholzer, and the show's host, that's me, is Mike 481 00:35:24,445 --> 00:35:25,245 Krugnetta. 482 00:35:29,085 --> 00:35:34,410 One, these are the vague demands you make on me. Two, that I 483 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:40,330 assemble. Two, recollect. Two, decode. Associate. 484 00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:45,365 Three, that I admit fraught with difficulty. Reintegration is no 485 00:35:45,365 --> 00:35:49,285 day at the beach in eggshell tints. The inmates start to get 486 00:35:49,285 --> 00:35:52,645 brave and a little crazy when they hear that friendly voice, 487 00:35:52,885 --> 00:35:57,680 the matron. Four, but that's also my mind lost. Her epic poem 488 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,040 on the constraints society places on the five, 489 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:01,920 misunderstood. 490 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:08,000 Excerpt of Sybil by Rebecca Wolf. Never Post is a production 491 00:36:08,255 --> 00:36:12,495 of Charts and Leisure, and it's distributed by Radiotopia.