1 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,105 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:14,105 --> 00:00:16,265 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:16,265 --> 00:00:21,225 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 08/12/2025 at 4 00:00:21,305 --> 00:00:27,545 09:10AM eastern, and we have an harmonious show for you today. 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,080 Contributing producer Toby Martin takes a deeper look at 6 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,840 why and how his online ads have changed throughout his 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,400 transition. Then in our second ever edition of terms and 8 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,495 conditions, I talk in detail about RSS, what it is, how it 9 00:00:46,495 --> 00:00:48,975 works, and why it's having a moment. 10 00:00:49,295 --> 00:00:52,575 For that, I chat with Justin Jackson, cofounder of podcast 11 00:00:52,575 --> 00:00:57,535 host transistor.fm and member of the podcast standards project 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:03,920 about the future of RSS and also Internet instruments. But right 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,840 now, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna listen to 14 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,880 some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we return, 15 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:10,960 we're gonna talk about a few of the things that have happened 16 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:14,735 since the last time you heard from us. Johnny's in the 17 00:01:14,735 --> 00:01:18,255 basement mixing up the five stories for you this week. 18 00:01:19,935 --> 00:01:25,935 Reddit will block the Internet Archive's wayback machine from 19 00:01:25,550 --> 00:01:29,470 scraping a majority of the site. This, the social media platform 20 00:01:29,470 --> 00:01:33,070 states, is because they've caught AI companies scraping the 21 00:01:33,070 --> 00:01:37,790 archive to build datasets for training. Speaking to The Verge, 22 00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:40,910 Reddit spokesperson Tim Rathschmidt says, until they're 23 00:01:40,910 --> 00:01:45,295 able to defend their site and comply with platform policies, e 24 00:01:45,295 --> 00:01:49,215 g respecting user privacy regarding deleting removed 25 00:01:49,215 --> 00:01:52,895 content, we're limiting some of their access to Reddit data to 26 00:01:52,895 --> 00:01:57,080 protect Redditors, end quote. Notably, in the last year, 27 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,080 Reddit has partnered with both OpenAI and Google. The Google 28 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,040 partnership brought in $60,000,000 for Reddit and The 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160 Verge reports that it was explicitly to quote, give Google 30 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,135 more efficient ways to train models. 31 00:02:10,295 --> 00:02:13,255 No dollar amount was made public concerning the OpenAI 32 00:02:13,255 --> 00:02:16,615 partnership with both companies touting AI powered features 33 00:02:16,615 --> 00:02:19,735 on-site for Reddit and no explicit mention of training 34 00:02:19,735 --> 00:02:23,000 data was made at the time either. Some speculate that deal 35 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,240 brought in $70,000,000 for Reddit. Wikipedia or more 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,895 specifically the Wikimedia Foundation has lost its suit in 37 00:02:33,895 --> 00:02:37,255 a UK high court wherein it claimed that the identity 38 00:02:37,255 --> 00:02:39,975 verification required by the UK government would be both 39 00:02:39,975 --> 00:02:43,975 unnecessary and damaging to the site where a large portion of 40 00:02:43,975 --> 00:02:47,175 editors desire anonymity for reasons we discussed with 41 00:02:47,175 --> 00:02:51,940 Stephen Harrison in Neverpost episode 29 fucking around and 42 00:02:51,940 --> 00:02:56,580 finding out. The UK's new online safety act was passed to address 43 00:02:56,580 --> 00:03:00,180 the proliferation of harmful content online, but has faced 44 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:04,315 much criticism for being both harsh and draconian. At question 45 00:03:04,315 --> 00:03:08,315 here is if Wikipedia should be classified as a category one 46 00:03:08,315 --> 00:03:12,475 site, a determination based upon its user base size and features. 47 00:03:12,475 --> 00:03:15,755 Wikimedia foundation says no, but The UK's office of 48 00:03:15,755 --> 00:03:20,870 communication may say yes, now that a judge has ruled Wikipedia 49 00:03:20,870 --> 00:03:27,510 is not de facto exempt. All this while Wikipedia also fights 50 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:30,710 slop. The Washington Post reports that editors are 51 00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:34,835 battling an on onslaught of AI generated nonsense. Daniel Wu 52 00:03:34,835 --> 00:03:39,155 writes quote, suspicious edits and even entirely new articles 53 00:03:39,155 --> 00:03:42,675 with errors, made up citations and other hallmarks of AI 54 00:03:42,675 --> 00:03:45,710 generated writing keep popping up on the free online 55 00:03:45,710 --> 00:03:48,830 encyclopedia. Deep in Wikipedia's message boards and 56 00:03:48,830 --> 00:03:53,310 edit logs, the site's stewards are toiling for long hours to 57 00:03:53,310 --> 00:03:55,950 find them and stamp them out, end quote. 58 00:03:56,375 --> 00:04:00,855 A study last October, Wu continues, estimates some 5% of 59 00:04:00,855 --> 00:04:09,015 entries contain AI generated text. Illinois becomes the first 60 00:04:09,015 --> 00:04:14,270 state in The US to ban AI therapists. Governor Pritzker 61 00:04:14,270 --> 00:04:17,550 signed the bill into law on August 5, which says that only 62 00:04:17,550 --> 00:04:21,790 licensed therapists can provide counseling and that chatbots are 63 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:25,550 not to assume the role of mental health professionals in any way. 64 00:04:26,085 --> 00:04:29,765 The eight page law reads in part quote, an individual corporation 65 00:04:29,765 --> 00:04:33,285 or entity may not provide advertise or otherwise offer 66 00:04:33,285 --> 00:04:36,565 therapy or psychotherapy services including through the 67 00:04:36,565 --> 00:04:39,890 use of internet based artificial intelligence to the public in 68 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:43,490 this state unless the therapy or psychotherapy services are 69 00:04:43,490 --> 00:04:47,410 conducted by an individual who is a licensed professional, end 70 00:04:47,410 --> 00:04:51,970 quote. The law also puts limits on a licensed professional's use 71 00:04:51,225 --> 00:04:55,065 of AI as a supplementary tool in treatment. 72 00:04:58,025 --> 00:05:03,305 And finally, this year alone, 22 states have enacted mobile phone 73 00:05:03,305 --> 00:05:08,010 bans in all or part of the k through 12 range of their public 74 00:05:08,010 --> 00:05:11,770 schools. The laws range in severity from suggestions that 75 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:15,930 schools do something about access to devices to outright 76 00:05:15,930 --> 00:05:19,905 bans in states like New York, Vermont, Texas, and Florida. 77 00:05:19,905 --> 00:05:23,105 Ballotpedia points out there's a variance amongst states 78 00:05:23,105 --> 00:05:26,465 concerning if phones are allowed during medical emergencies, 79 00:05:26,625 --> 00:05:30,145 break periods, and so on. Ballotpedia also reports that 80 00:05:30,145 --> 00:05:34,240 quote, of the 26 total states with laws banning or limiting 81 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,600 cell phone use, 17 have republican trifectas, six have 82 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,675 divided governments, and three have democratic trifectas. A 83 00:05:44,675 --> 00:05:48,515 trifecta here meaning a party that controls all three branches 84 00:05:48,675 --> 00:05:49,955 of state government. 85 00:05:49,955 --> 00:05:57,715 One, two, three. In show news, I was on episode 51 of the 86 00:05:57,715 --> 00:06:01,860 Tasteland podcast talking about the Internet, making never post 87 00:06:01,860 --> 00:06:05,220 hentai, the attention economy, and the Internet media 88 00:06:05,220 --> 00:06:07,860 environment as I've seen it over the last couple decades and 89 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:11,300 more. I had a really great time chatting with Francis and Daisy, 90 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:14,375 so please go check that out. Tasteland wherever you get your 91 00:06:14,375 --> 00:06:19,015 podcasts, and we'll also throw a link in the description. And we, 92 00:06:19,015 --> 00:06:23,575 in case you haven't heard, are in the midst of a member drive. 93 00:06:23,575 --> 00:06:27,600 That's right, folks. We are driving members crazy, reminding 94 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,120 them that now is the time to support Neverpost to help us get 95 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,480 financially sustainable by the start of next year, which is a 96 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,955 little bit away. But you know what's very soon? The member 97 00:06:38,955 --> 00:06:44,555 drive stream week, which is next week, August. If you missed it 98 00:06:44,555 --> 00:06:47,515 in George's newsletter, which lots of updates go in there, so 99 00:06:47,515 --> 00:06:49,115 please make sure you're subscribed. 100 00:06:49,115 --> 00:06:52,155 There is a whole schedule waiting for you with a Monday 101 00:06:52,235 --> 00:06:56,770 morning eastern kickoff. I hope you'll join us then and then at 102 00:06:56,770 --> 00:07:00,050 various points throughout the week for chitchats, q and a's, 103 00:07:00,050 --> 00:07:03,410 game streams, a tour of Georgia's closet, special 104 00:07:03,410 --> 00:07:07,045 guests, giveaways, and more. Please check the newsletter or 105 00:07:07,045 --> 00:07:10,565 go to neverpoe.st for the schedule next week. Member drive 106 00:07:10,565 --> 00:07:11,685 stream week. Okay. 107 00:07:12,965 --> 00:07:20,920 Next, Toby on the Internet doing gender at you, then RSS. But 108 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,920 first, in our interstitials this week, three Internet 109 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,200 instruments, two of which are entrants in the twenty twenty 110 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,040 five tiny awards, which are amazing and we've put a link to 111 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,785 that in the description. Please go check it out. In our 112 00:07:34,785 --> 00:07:38,945 interstitials, we have Maximo Neely Cohen's 10,000 Drum 113 00:07:38,945 --> 00:07:45,585 Machines, Rafael Bastides Nest, and ErrorZero's Three zero three 114 00:07:45,585 --> 00:07:48,945 Gen. Links to all of these in the show notes. 115 00:07:50,060 --> 00:08:01,580 Hans Buetow: Okay. Here we go. 10kdrummachines.com. 116 00:08:02,375 --> 00:08:11,255 10kdrummachines.com. Oh, list of drum machines. 117 00:08:11,255 --> 00:08:15,015 Here we go. Here we go. What do I want? Let's do Nights Tour 118 00:08:15,015 --> 00:08:17,650 Drum Sequencer. Number nine. 119 00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:22,530 It's a chess board. It's a chess board. Okay. Knight two is 120 00:08:22,530 --> 00:08:25,170 snare. How I play? 121 00:08:27,650 --> 00:08:47,625 It's playing chess. Okay. Let's start with White Album Noise 122 00:08:47,625 --> 00:08:50,880 Machine. Cool. Cool. 123 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,480 Cool. So we got four tracks to let's just click some random 124 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,120 patterns here. Let's do a random sequence, and let's do the bpm 125 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:07,415 at a 190. Just for just a 180. 180 is as high as it goes. 126 00:09:07,415 --> 00:09:19,830 Alright. Here we go. Alright. Let's refresh the sounds. 127 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:23,510 Alright. 128 00:09:23,510 --> 00:09:27,990 Let's break it down a little bit slower. Let's do let's do it in 129 00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:28,950 half. Let's do 90. 130 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,000 Georgia Hampton: Hello, everybody. It's producer 131 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,240 Georgia. I'm just jumping in here because I am so stoked 132 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,375 about the segment that you are about to listen to. Eagle eared 133 00:10:28,375 --> 00:10:32,135 listeners might remember this pitch from our April mailbag, 134 00:10:32,215 --> 00:10:35,575 where listener of the show Toby Martin sent in a voicemail about 135 00:10:35,575 --> 00:10:40,295 this strange experience he's had online. I'm not giving anything 136 00:10:40,295 --> 00:10:40,535 away. 137 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,800 Since then, Toby and I, along with additional support from 138 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,920 Hans, have been working together to shape that pitch into what 139 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,015 you're about to listen to. I am so so excited for you to hear 140 00:10:55,015 --> 00:10:57,255 this. I'll let Toby take it from here. 141 00:11:08,390 --> 00:11:10,950 Toby Martin: I wanna paint a picture for you. I'm 22 years 142 00:11:10,950 --> 00:11:13,910 old. It's been three weeks since my top surgery, and all I can 143 00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:17,350 bring myself to do is lay in bed on my laptop. I'm on the 144 00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:20,710 subreddit r slash what is this rock looking at an impressive 145 00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:24,525 sedimentary rock comprised of a bunch of crinoid fossils from 146 00:11:24,525 --> 00:11:28,445 Lake Michigan. When I see this jarring ad in the middle of my 147 00:11:28,445 --> 00:11:29,085 screen. 148 00:11:29,805 --> 00:11:34,605 Clip: Most men don't need more testosterone. They need more h g 149 00:11:34,605 --> 00:11:34,925 h. 150 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:38,530 Toby Martin: I am no stranger to ads on the internet, but as a 151 00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:41,570 trans man, it felt weirdly timely to be getting served 152 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:45,170 alpha male ads on Reddit after my top surgery. This wasn't 153 00:11:45,170 --> 00:11:49,330 gender euphoria. It was more like a type of gender euphoria, 154 00:11:49,715 --> 00:11:54,595 spelled with an e w. This ad represented a type of macho man 155 00:11:54,595 --> 00:11:57,635 that icked me out, the type of guy I would steer clear from at 156 00:11:57,635 --> 00:12:01,875 a bar. I couldn't figure out why I got this ad in the first 157 00:12:01,875 --> 00:12:05,180 place, so I started to obsess over my targeted content to see 158 00:12:05,180 --> 00:12:07,580 if I might be able to get more of the same. 159 00:12:08,140 --> 00:12:12,060 And I did. A majority of my content was geared at cis 160 00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:15,420 straight men. I was being advertised shitty supplements, 161 00:12:15,705 --> 00:12:19,305 hair loss treatments, and my personal favorite, erectile 162 00:12:19,305 --> 00:12:24,585 dysfunction cure alls. These guys were everywhere. When did 163 00:12:24,585 --> 00:12:28,265 my ads become this hyper masculine, and what did I change 164 00:12:28,265 --> 00:12:29,225 to make that happen? 165 00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:35,730 In pursuit to answer these questions and the many more that 166 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:39,090 would come up along the way, I started talking to my fellow 167 00:12:39,090 --> 00:12:43,250 trans folks. I wrote out a message saying, has anyone 168 00:12:43,250 --> 00:12:46,690 noticed a change in their targeted ads or content as they 169 00:12:46,690 --> 00:12:50,665 transitioned? I am mainly trying to vibe check if I'm an isolated 170 00:12:50,665 --> 00:12:53,705 experience or not because for me, it's a night and day 171 00:12:53,705 --> 00:12:57,545 difference on some platforms. I pressed send and waited 172 00:12:57,545 --> 00:13:04,540 anxiously for a response. Turns out, yes. 173 00:13:04,860 --> 00:13:08,380 A lot of folks had things to say. I got permission to share 174 00:13:08,380 --> 00:13:11,580 these messages, but to protect everyone's privacy, you'll be 175 00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:14,940 hearing from some fantastic trans writers and artists to 176 00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:16,780 read these messages on their behalf. 177 00:13:19,255 --> 00:13:22,215 Guest Reader: Yes. My ads shifted over time. And it was 178 00:13:22,215 --> 00:13:24,855 pretty clear what kind of sites integrate with Facebook because 179 00:13:24,855 --> 00:13:27,655 my ads would change almost immediately after visiting 180 00:13:27,655 --> 00:13:31,655 certain sites, like for clothing or post op care, etcetera. 181 00:13:31,655 --> 00:13:34,900 Facebook also likes to show me transition before and afters, 182 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:37,940 which are really annoying, and I always hide those to try to get 183 00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:41,940 it to stop. And it also likes to show me a lot of lesbian 184 00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:42,740 content. 185 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:47,455 Toby Martin: This made total sense to me because, I mean, I 186 00:13:47,455 --> 00:13:51,215 had a very similar experience through my transition. After I 187 00:13:51,215 --> 00:13:54,175 bought some fleece lined sweatpants and a body pillow for 188 00:13:54,175 --> 00:13:58,095 my top surgery recovery, my ads responded very quickly. 189 00:13:58,175 --> 00:14:02,120 Suddenly, I got a ton more ads trying to sell me scar tape or 190 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,760 wedge pillows. But stuff like recovery kits and transition 191 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,520 before and after ads wasn't really my focus for the segment. 192 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,640 I was especially interested in how much of my own targeted 193 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,075 content was advertising a certain kind of gender. 194 00:14:17,155 --> 00:14:21,155 More specifically, your prototypical manosphere cis het 195 00:14:21,155 --> 00:14:31,130 man. Where did he come from? And I think I remember. It was my 196 00:14:31,130 --> 00:14:34,970 freshman year of college. At the time, I still presented as a 197 00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:37,290 very femme version of myself. 198 00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:41,690 I sold my hair in wet set curlers. I dressed in skirts and 199 00:14:41,690 --> 00:14:45,975 wore a full face of makeup. A lot of my ads reflected this. I 200 00:14:45,975 --> 00:14:49,735 got ads for Benefit Cosmetics, Unique Vintage, and a lot of 201 00:14:49,735 --> 00:14:54,295 women's skincare brands. These ads were hyper feminine, 202 00:14:54,295 --> 00:14:57,815 presenting me with a version of womanhood that was smooth and 203 00:14:57,450 --> 00:15:00,250 perfectly made up with foundation and eyeshadow. 204 00:15:00,650 --> 00:15:04,890 I was used to seeing ads like this, of the hyperfem variety. 205 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:09,290 But one day in my engineering class, I got fed something very, 206 00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:15,115 very different. I remember I was working on this three d model 207 00:15:15,115 --> 00:15:18,395 with some YouTube videos playing in the background. I wasn't 208 00:15:18,395 --> 00:15:22,315 really paying much attention to the video until this ad for the 209 00:15:22,315 --> 00:15:26,395 US army started playing. I'd never been delivered a military 210 00:15:26,395 --> 00:15:27,410 ad before. 211 00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:31,890 It was the exact opposite of what I was used to seeing. No 212 00:15:31,890 --> 00:15:36,850 more soft focus. No more makeup. Instead, I saw a buff soldier 213 00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:38,530 piloting a drone with the caption 214 00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:41,885 Clip: Join the team that makes a difference. 215 00:15:42,205 --> 00:15:47,005 Toby Martin: I felt conflicted. I didn't care about the US 216 00:15:47,005 --> 00:15:50,765 military or drones, but it made me feel like something had 217 00:15:50,765 --> 00:15:55,485 shifted. Remember, I saw this ad when I was in my engineering 218 00:15:55,485 --> 00:15:59,140 class where I was one of two girls in the 23 person class. 219 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:03,540 And something about being in this very masked place changed 220 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:27,560 the way my ads saw me. I wanted to talk to someone who could 221 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:28,920 help me understand this. 222 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,480 Adam Aleksic: Hi. My name is Adam Aleksek. I'm a linguist and 223 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,120 content creator posting videos as the etymology nerd to an 224 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,440 audience of over 3,000,000, and I just finished writing the 225 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,160 book, How Social Media is Transforming the Future of 226 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,935 Language, which is now available for order. 227 00:16:41,935 --> 00:16:44,895 Toby Martin: I wanted Adam's help in making sense of how 228 00:16:44,895 --> 00:16:48,735 algorithms target content to users, specifically when it 229 00:16:48,735 --> 00:16:52,575 comes to gender. He explained to me that in order to better 230 00:16:52,575 --> 00:16:56,260 understand the algorithms, we have to understand how we use 231 00:16:56,260 --> 00:16:59,460 them and how it makes a profile of us. 232 00:16:59,780 --> 00:17:03,060 Adam Aleksic: It comes out of everything you've ever liked, 233 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:05,700 commented on, everything you've ever posted, the way your thumb 234 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:09,745 rests on your screen, your basic demographic information, the the 235 00:17:09,745 --> 00:17:12,705 activity you have on other apps that they can track, whether 236 00:17:12,705 --> 00:17:15,265 your phone's on the same WiFi network as another phone that's 237 00:17:15,265 --> 00:17:17,745 recently engaged in the kind of content. So even if you're not 238 00:17:17,745 --> 00:17:20,300 you haven't looked up Coquette video in your life and you just 239 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:22,140 had a conversation with the Kochette person, your phone's 240 00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:24,300 not actually listening to you, but they they might know that 241 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,540 you were in the same room as this person because you're on 242 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:29,340 the same WiFi network. So they they build through a lot of 243 00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:32,380 these things. Oftentimes, they yeah. Through cross app 244 00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:35,085 tracking, they can tell from your search history and all 245 00:17:35,085 --> 00:17:37,965 that's built into your user profile and ends up influencing 246 00:17:37,965 --> 00:17:39,805 what videos get recommended to you. 247 00:17:39,965 --> 00:17:42,925 Toby Martin: The idea that my real life interactions affect my 248 00:17:42,925 --> 00:17:47,725 targeted content can feel nice. When my friend sends me a TikTok 249 00:17:47,725 --> 00:17:51,280 I've already seen or sends me a post about a TV show I talked 250 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,240 about, I feel more connected to them. Our algorithms overlap, 251 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,320 which makes it feel like we have a mutual common language. When I 252 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,520 started learning to play piano, my algorithm started sending me 253 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,095 ads for sheet music. Soon, I was getting recommended videos about 254 00:18:07,095 --> 00:18:10,695 music theory or banner ads for free teaching apps and top 10 255 00:18:10,695 --> 00:18:12,695 best keyboards for beginners. 256 00:18:12,855 --> 00:18:16,215 Piano was just a hobby for me, but my algorithm was acting like 257 00:18:16,215 --> 00:18:20,720 piano was the only thing I cared about. For a month, all I saw 258 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:26,880 was piano content. So sure, I didn't click on every keyboard 259 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,560 ad I saw, but it did feel nice that my feed was reflecting 260 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,695 something about me that was true, even if it was a little 261 00:18:33,695 --> 00:18:46,390 exaggerated. Getting that hyper masculine military ad wasn't 262 00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:50,470 exactly the kind of masculinity I identified with, but it also 263 00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:54,790 felt kind of affirming. I wasn't going to click on the ad. 264 00:18:54,790 --> 00:18:58,470 I didn't want to join the army, but it did kind of make me feel 265 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:02,865 like I was one of the guys. So all my data and my search 266 00:19:02,865 --> 00:19:06,065 history and what I buy gets compiled together, and then I've 267 00:19:06,065 --> 00:19:17,780 got my gender assigned at algorithm. But it's definitely 268 00:19:17,780 --> 00:19:19,300 not perfect. 269 00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:22,820 Guest Reader: I started getting targeted binder ads after I got 270 00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:27,700 top surgery. I get a lot of ads for like alternative women's 271 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:31,595 underwear companies that target mostly gender nonconfirming 272 00:19:31,595 --> 00:19:36,555 queer women. I think the algo thinks I'm a tomboy. I'm a trans 273 00:19:36,555 --> 00:19:37,115 man. 274 00:19:37,275 --> 00:19:39,595 Toby Martin: The algorithm doesn't seem to be good at 275 00:19:39,595 --> 00:19:42,970 nuance when it comes to gender. Getting top surgery means you 276 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:46,730 don't need binders anymore. And being a trans man could get 277 00:19:46,730 --> 00:19:50,170 garbled up by the algorithm and turned into some vague idea of 278 00:19:50,170 --> 00:19:54,090 being a tomboy. It feels less like my gender is what defines 279 00:19:54,090 --> 00:19:58,225 my algorithm and more like what I'm buying. Like, okay. 280 00:19:58,225 --> 00:20:01,905 Fantastic. So I bought a suit, looked up hockey stats, and 281 00:20:01,905 --> 00:20:07,265 calculated my macros. Now the algorithm sees me as a man TM. 282 00:20:07,425 --> 00:20:11,425 But once I got stamped with the you're a dude label by my feed, 283 00:20:11,425 --> 00:20:15,510 I noticed that the algorithmic understanding of manhood was 284 00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:22,230 really specific. Maybe I'd start with getting ads for cargo 285 00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:25,270 shorts and boxer briefs, but it wouldn't take long before I'd 286 00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:29,095 start seeing sports betting ads, then an ad for Drew Peterson's 287 00:20:29,095 --> 00:20:33,335 new book, and suddenly I'm in a different world, down the rabbit 288 00:20:33,335 --> 00:20:35,655 hole of Red Pills and Mig Tau bros. 289 00:20:36,775 --> 00:20:38,775 And I'm not alone in this experience. 290 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,360 Guest Reader: I've been openly trans for six years now, and 291 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,000 these are the main ads that get pushed to me now with me being 292 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,960 more openly manly. Charlie Kirk, Turning Point USA, Super Sexy 293 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,400 Gacha Games, Gambling, the occasional penis enlargement 294 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,985 product. I cannot stress the uptick in right wing slash MAGA 295 00:20:56,985 --> 00:21:00,025 content that keeps being pushed regardless of me blocking or 296 00:21:00,025 --> 00:21:02,265 saying I don't want these specific ads. 297 00:21:02,665 --> 00:21:06,025 Toby Martin: The algorithm is optimizing for this one type of 298 00:21:06,025 --> 00:21:10,050 guy. A guy who would see military ads and think, that 299 00:21:10,050 --> 00:21:13,890 could be me. I could make a difference. But that wasn't me, 300 00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:17,490 and it's never going to be me. But for some reason, I couldn't 301 00:21:17,490 --> 00:21:20,850 escape this super bro who's haunting my ads. 302 00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:25,305 I asked Adam about this, and he explained that a part of this 303 00:21:25,305 --> 00:21:28,745 has to do with the way that algorithms feed certain kinds of 304 00:21:28,745 --> 00:21:31,065 content out to different groups of people. 305 00:21:31,385 --> 00:21:34,025 Adam Aleksic: In the traditional model of communication and 306 00:21:34,025 --> 00:21:37,785 linguistics, I talk to you, I'm the encoder, you get my message, 307 00:21:37,785 --> 00:21:41,660 you decode it. Now if I'm talking to you as a social media 308 00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:45,420 influencer, I am encoding a message. The algorithm decodes 309 00:21:45,420 --> 00:21:48,940 the message, encodes a new message, and then sends it out, 310 00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:51,420 and then you decode it. So there's an extra layer there. 311 00:21:51,420 --> 00:21:54,025 And when I say the algorithm, like, encodes a new message, it 312 00:21:54,025 --> 00:21:56,105 may send it to an unintended audience. 313 00:21:56,185 --> 00:21:59,545 I may want my video to reach a certain demographic of people, 314 00:21:59,545 --> 00:22:01,145 and the algorithm might reassign it. 315 00:22:01,225 --> 00:22:03,625 Toby Martin: So maybe someone like Jordan Peterson gets the 316 00:22:03,625 --> 00:22:07,305 attention of a certain kind of guy, like a huge community full 317 00:22:07,305 --> 00:22:11,080 of that one kind of dude. That content goes to the top of the 318 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,760 list to advertise to men online just because it's really popular 319 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,560 among men. But it's still a traditional version of 320 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,880 masculinity, one I certainly don't ascribe to. And isn't my 321 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,615 algorithm supposed to get to know me specifically? Why does 322 00:22:25,615 --> 00:22:30,015 it insist on pushing out this one version of hypermasculinity? 323 00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:32,575 Adam Aleksic: We can't avoid talking about algorithmic bias 324 00:22:32,575 --> 00:22:36,255 here, which naturally amplifies social bias. Algorithms tend to 325 00:22:36,255 --> 00:22:39,855 compound and amplify what natural human social behaviors 326 00:22:39,855 --> 00:22:44,310 are. Unfortunately, humans tend to trust more or want to view 327 00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:48,550 more videos from people who are in the gender binary, like, kind 328 00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:52,070 of stereotype, like, presentation. So algorithms 329 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:56,155 reflexively are going to reinforce that, and more 330 00:22:56,155 --> 00:22:58,635 heteronormative kind of perspectives are gonna be pushed 331 00:22:58,635 --> 00:23:00,475 because that's what's going viral. 332 00:23:03,675 --> 00:23:06,955 Toby Martin: The manosphere just has a huge online presence. 333 00:23:07,275 --> 00:23:09,755 There's a lot of money to be made there. So from an 334 00:23:09,755 --> 00:23:13,090 algorithmic perspective, it's a no brainer. If you're a dude on 335 00:23:13,090 --> 00:23:15,890 the Internet, you're gonna get these kinds of ads. Look up 336 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:19,090 cargo shorts one time and bam, here comes Jordan Peterson. 337 00:23:19,090 --> 00:23:23,730 Adam Aleksic: There is a really interesting sort of algorithmic 338 00:23:22,875 --> 00:23:26,395 performativity as well, where an influencer isn't just performing 339 00:23:26,395 --> 00:23:28,315 for their audience, they're performing for what they think 340 00:23:28,315 --> 00:23:29,515 is gonna go viral. 341 00:23:31,755 --> 00:23:33,755 Toby Martin: So in this case, ends up happening is this 342 00:23:33,755 --> 00:23:36,635 compounding situation where certain kinds of content go 343 00:23:36,635 --> 00:23:40,430 viral, get a lot of algorithmic attention, and then the people 344 00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:43,790 making that content see how popular their stuff is, and they 345 00:23:43,790 --> 00:23:47,070 make more of it. The cycle keeps going and going, and that 346 00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:50,430 hypermasculine content keeps getting pushed out to more and 347 00:23:50,430 --> 00:23:54,945 more people, even people like me who are very much not the 348 00:23:54,945 --> 00:24:00,625 intended audience for it. This version of manhood isn't 349 00:24:00,625 --> 00:24:03,665 something I want for myself. It feels like hearing a dissonant 350 00:24:03,665 --> 00:24:06,705 chord, an interpretation of gender that feels totally off 351 00:24:06,705 --> 00:24:10,800 the mark to what I actually feel about myself. But those super 352 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,760 masculine ads also came to me at a time where I was in the middle 353 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,120 of figuring myself out, where my own understanding of how I felt 354 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:18,640 about manhood was developing. 355 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,605 And like I said before, at first, it felt kind of nice to 356 00:24:22,605 --> 00:24:26,365 be treated like a guy by the algorithm, even if it wasn't the 357 00:24:26,365 --> 00:24:34,100 right kind of guy. When I first got that macho military ad, I 358 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:36,820 was still presenting as a woman in the real world. And as I 359 00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:40,020 began coming out to my friends and exploring my trans identity 360 00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:44,340 through online channels, that wasn't always true IRL. I was 361 00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:47,725 constantly bargaining with my own identity. Maybe I could chop 362 00:24:47,725 --> 00:24:50,685 my hair off into a more androgynous cut or wear more 363 00:24:50,685 --> 00:24:53,485 pants, less dresses, but it was a process. 364 00:24:53,965 --> 00:24:57,485 And in a way, my ads reflected this period where I was changing 365 00:24:57,485 --> 00:25:03,240 myself constantly for myself and others. Online, I spent a lot of 366 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,840 time trying to figure out what being a man looked like for me. 367 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,760 Maybe I'm a cargo shorts guy or an Overwatch guy, and its 368 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,440 imperfect way, my algorithm served as another way to try 369 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,415 stuff on. It was like it was asking me, do you want to become 370 00:25:18,415 --> 00:25:20,175 a Manosphere guy? Do you 371 00:25:20,175 --> 00:25:21,615 Georgia Hampton: wanna listen to Joe Rogan? 372 00:25:22,495 --> 00:25:25,615 Toby Martin: When I first got those kind of gendered ads, they 373 00:25:25,615 --> 00:25:29,295 really freaked me out because, no, I don't wanna be that kind 374 00:25:29,295 --> 00:25:33,630 of guy. I never have been that kind of guy. But in the process 375 00:25:33,630 --> 00:25:36,590 of working on this segment, I've started to look at it another 376 00:25:36,590 --> 00:25:40,270 way. The algorithm was performing with me as I started 377 00:25:40,270 --> 00:25:42,030 to unravel who I was. 378 00:25:44,190 --> 00:25:47,325 Adam Aleksic: Well, I mean, all identity is performance. Right? 379 00:25:47,325 --> 00:25:50,845 That's historically always been true. It depending on our 380 00:25:50,845 --> 00:25:54,365 audience, we are constantly embodying a role or an idea of, 381 00:25:54,365 --> 00:25:56,765 like, who we are supposed to be. And that's the thing. 382 00:25:56,765 --> 00:25:59,720 Even without the algorithms even without the algorithms, if a 383 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,520 label is out there, it'll always affect our identity because now 384 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,080 we know once we know it's there, we're either going to perform 385 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,000 toward it or we're gonna perform against it. 386 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,315 Toby Martin: As I continue living as a man and learning 387 00:26:13,315 --> 00:26:16,595 what that looks like for me, the grip the ads have on me has 388 00:26:16,595 --> 00:26:20,515 loosened. I'm not performing for my ad profile. I don't need it 389 00:26:20,515 --> 00:26:23,875 anymore. The gendered algorithm is simple and uncomplicated. It 390 00:26:23,875 --> 00:26:27,020 has no depth, and it doesn't even know what a man is. 391 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:30,700 It only knows that a lot of guys click on ads for male growth 392 00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:35,340 hormone. I'm breaking up with my gender assigned algorithm 393 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:39,505 because being transgender, or for God's sakes, human, can't be 394 00:26:39,505 --> 00:26:44,225 easily partitioned away. I'm a man, and I get to decide what 395 00:26:44,225 --> 00:26:48,785 that means for me. To me, manhood looks like wearing green 396 00:26:48,785 --> 00:26:52,580 cargo shorts and watching hockey. It looks like a lot of 397 00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:55,300 things, but I get to choose. 398 00:27:06,995 --> 00:27:10,115 Thank you to Adam Alexic for sitting down to chat with me. 399 00:27:10,115 --> 00:27:13,475 Check out his book AlgoSpeak wherever you buy books. And 400 00:27:13,475 --> 00:27:15,635 thank you to my friends for offering their voices to read 401 00:27:15,635 --> 00:27:18,275 the quotes folks sent in, and everyone who submitted their 402 00:27:18,275 --> 00:27:20,515 experiences with the algorithm and gendered ads. 403 00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:46,350 Mike Rugnetta: In this, our second ever terms and conditions 404 00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:50,110 segment, where we explain things that you, our dear listeners, 405 00:29:50,110 --> 00:29:54,270 maybe never got around to understanding and are now too 406 00:29:54,270 --> 00:29:58,350 afraid to ask or too busy to learn on your own, I'm gonna 407 00:29:58,350 --> 00:30:06,005 tackle your most requested topic by far, RSS. That's right. The 408 00:30:06,005 --> 00:30:11,605 very technology that you used to get this and probably every 409 00:30:11,605 --> 00:30:15,480 other podcast that you listen to. The technology that allowed 410 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,040 the once mighty Google reader to thrive. The technology that 411 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,920 launched and arguably sustained countless blogs in the early two 412 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,245 thousands in which in the era of the platform internet is 413 00:30:28,245 --> 00:30:30,805 currently having a bit of a resurgence. 414 00:30:31,125 --> 00:30:36,045 You have maybe read about RSS recently. For instance, in April 415 00:30:36,045 --> 00:30:40,450 2024, Alex Sujon Laughlin published, if you love podcasts, 416 00:30:40,770 --> 00:30:44,610 dump Spotify on Defector, in which she pits the walled in 417 00:30:44,610 --> 00:30:49,410 audio platform giant against the open RSS standard. This 418 00:30:49,410 --> 00:30:53,775 February, it's FOSS News published, why I still love and 419 00:30:53,775 --> 00:30:59,615 use RSS feeds in 2025. Just last month, Molly White published a 420 00:30:59,615 --> 00:31:03,855 citation needed newsletter titled curate your own newspaper 421 00:31:03,935 --> 00:31:08,890 with RSS And the subtitle, escape newsletter inbox chaos 422 00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:12,170 and algorithmic surveillance by building your own and 423 00:31:12,170 --> 00:31:16,570 shitification proof newspaper from writers you already read. 424 00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:20,825 In January, Jason Snell at long running Apple news blog 425 00:31:20,825 --> 00:31:25,785 6colors.com published the post reading newsletters via RSS 426 00:31:25,785 --> 00:31:27,625 reader is still great. 427 00:31:27,705 --> 00:31:32,025 And in April 2024, Scott Gilbertson at Wired published 428 00:31:31,780 --> 00:31:35,300 the best RSS feed readers for streamlining the internet with 429 00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:39,700 the subtitle, the internet is a mess. Ignore the algorithm and 430 00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:43,540 distill the web down to the things you already care about. 431 00:31:44,340 --> 00:31:50,345 Reddit, blue sky, x are all awash with love posts to RSS, so 432 00:31:50,585 --> 00:31:54,745 we're gonna talk about it. What RSS is in hopefully not too 433 00:31:54,745 --> 00:31:58,185 excruciating technological detail, but some technological 434 00:31:58,185 --> 00:32:01,560 detail. How the conditions of its development made it what it 435 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,240 is, a standard which has not really changed in twenty plus 436 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,840 years, and will chart the aforementioned down and then 437 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,875 upswing in interest, which would seem at first glance to be the 438 00:32:12,875 --> 00:32:16,715 inverse of an up and then downswing in public sentiment 439 00:32:16,715 --> 00:32:19,515 regarding the social internet. 440 00:32:21,275 --> 00:32:35,010 Probably just a coincidence. So what is RSS? RSS is a 441 00:32:35,010 --> 00:32:41,715 standardized open format web feed based on XML. We're gonna 442 00:32:41,715 --> 00:32:45,235 go through each of those things. A web feed isn't normally 443 00:32:45,235 --> 00:32:47,155 something you interact with directly. 444 00:32:47,315 --> 00:32:51,955 It's a document made by one service, say, a podcast host, 445 00:32:52,035 --> 00:32:56,720 and decoded by another service, say, your pod catcher. One 446 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680 service makes and maintains the feed based on the things that 447 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,120 you publish, and then the other pulls information from it in 448 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,800 order to serve it in a useful format, like, say, sound files 449 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,465 to listen to and information about those sound files. This 450 00:33:10,465 --> 00:33:16,145 means that RSS is what is called machine readable, not human 451 00:33:16,145 --> 00:33:19,905 readable. I mean, you could read it, but no one would expect you 452 00:33:19,905 --> 00:33:22,945 to. And by simply reading it, you don't benefit from its 453 00:33:22,945 --> 00:33:27,570 existence because your brain can't download audio files or 454 00:33:27,570 --> 00:33:28,450 metadata. 455 00:33:28,770 --> 00:33:33,570 And if it can, please call the show. Now there are a bunch of 456 00:33:33,570 --> 00:33:38,445 web feed formats. JSON feed, Atom, and RSS are the most 457 00:33:38,445 --> 00:33:44,445 common. Both RSS and Atom, which is, like, sort of based on RSS, 458 00:33:44,445 --> 00:33:50,170 kind of, are written in what's called XML. XML is a markup 459 00:33:50,170 --> 00:33:53,930 language, sort of similar to HTML, which is used to make web 460 00:33:53,930 --> 00:33:58,330 pages, but XML can make, kind of whatever you want. 461 00:33:58,330 --> 00:34:02,970 It has many many uses. In fact, it stands for extensible markup 462 00:34:02,970 --> 00:34:06,105 language. So what is a markup language? A markup language 463 00:34:06,185 --> 00:34:12,905 generally, envelops or enrobes. It goes around other pieces of 464 00:34:12,905 --> 00:34:13,625 information. 465 00:34:13,785 --> 00:34:18,690 Usually, though not always, plain text and media or links to 466 00:34:18,690 --> 00:34:23,410 media. So images, video, audio. It goes around those things and 467 00:34:23,410 --> 00:34:27,010 it helps to organize and sometimes display them, and that 468 00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:32,035 organization is done within a hierarchy of nodes. So we're 469 00:34:32,035 --> 00:34:34,195 gonna talk about this practically because I think it's 470 00:34:34,195 --> 00:34:36,435 gonna be a bit easier to understand than talking about it 471 00:34:36,435 --> 00:34:42,435 abstractly. So I know I just told you not to do this, but if 472 00:34:42,435 --> 00:34:48,340 you were to download and open and then read the RSS file for 473 00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:52,340 this podcast for Never Post, which you could do, in any, 474 00:34:52,660 --> 00:34:54,100 plain text reader. 475 00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:57,700 So like, you know, notepad should do it, by going to 476 00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:01,925 neverpo.st and then in the middle of the page, you'll see 477 00:35:01,925 --> 00:35:07,045 the orange RSS icon that says listen via RSS. Click on that or 478 00:35:07,045 --> 00:35:10,085 right click on it and just save the file that pops up and then 479 00:35:10,085 --> 00:35:14,245 open it. Scroll down a little bit to see the entry for this 480 00:35:14,245 --> 00:35:19,370 episode. You'd see open angle bracket item, the word item I t 481 00:35:19,370 --> 00:35:23,370 e m, closed angle bracket, which for simplicity I'm just gonna 482 00:35:23,370 --> 00:35:27,130 call those brackets from now on. This marks the beginning of a 483 00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:27,690 node. 484 00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:32,595 The word item is defined by the RSS standard and it means 485 00:35:32,675 --> 00:35:36,195 everything that follows until this node is closed describes 486 00:35:36,195 --> 00:35:40,755 one post in the feed. Then you'll see open bracket, title, 487 00:35:40,995 --> 00:35:44,755 close bracket. Title also defined by the RSS standard 488 00:35:44,755 --> 00:35:49,720 means everything in this node is the title of the post. Then it 489 00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,680 will say the title of this episode in plain text. I don't 490 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,600 know what that title is at the time of recording, but let's say 491 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,000 it's a feed me Seymour. 492 00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:04,155 That would go right here followed by open bracket forward 493 00:36:04,155 --> 00:36:09,035 slash title closed bracket. The addition of the slash means that 494 00:36:09,035 --> 00:36:13,450 this is a closing tag. This node is done. Everything before this 495 00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:16,650 was the title. Everything after this is something else. 496 00:36:16,810 --> 00:36:21,770 Next up is open bracket, pub date, close bracket. Everything 497 00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:25,050 in this node is the date and time that this item, this 498 00:36:25,050 --> 00:36:30,145 episode was published. So it's gonna be Wednesday, 08/13/2025 499 00:36:30,145 --> 00:36:35,025 and then whatever time we end up publishing in UTC. Then open 500 00:36:35,025 --> 00:36:39,905 bracket forward slash pub date close bracket. This is a closing 501 00:36:39,905 --> 00:36:43,110 tag which means as we already know, this node is done. 502 00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:46,150 Everything before this closing tag was the pub date. Everything 503 00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:49,910 after this is something else and so on and so forth for 504 00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:54,710 everything useful that you would want in a feed with many node 505 00:36:54,015 --> 00:36:57,695 names defined by the RSS standard. These are things like 506 00:36:57,935 --> 00:37:02,575 description and summary, enclosure which in a podcast RSS 507 00:37:02,575 --> 00:37:06,495 is the link to the actual audio file and more including a bunch 508 00:37:06,495 --> 00:37:10,650 of nodes that begin iTunes, which is maybe gonna seem kind 509 00:37:10,650 --> 00:37:14,010 of strange. This is because Apple as arguably the most 510 00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:18,250 powerful player in the podcast space has helped to establish a 511 00:37:18,250 --> 00:37:22,090 bunch of conventions, but they've added those conventions 512 00:37:22,090 --> 00:37:26,625 on top of the RSS standard using something that's called 513 00:37:26,625 --> 00:37:29,185 namespace. We're gonna talk more about that later. 514 00:37:29,185 --> 00:37:31,345 That's a sort of deep technical detail that you don't really 515 00:37:31,345 --> 00:37:37,000 need to know yet or perhaps ever. All of these nodes are 516 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,400 included inside each item node which is then closed with a open 517 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,800 bracket forward slash item closed bracket tag. Meaning, at 518 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,000 that point, we're done talking about this item, this episode 519 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,175 and we're ready to move on either to the next or the end of 520 00:37:52,175 --> 00:37:56,895 the feed. The whole thing is kinda like a train. The engine 521 00:37:56,895 --> 00:37:59,855 at the front says, here comes an episode. 522 00:37:59,935 --> 00:38:04,880 And then each car is filled with specific information about the 523 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,680 episode loaded by the service that publishes it. So you get 524 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,280 the description car, then you get the runtime car, then the 525 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,285 post body text car. The Internet is the track that moves this 526 00:38:20,285 --> 00:38:24,205 information from publisher to reader or pod catcher where 527 00:38:24,205 --> 00:38:27,885 everything is then unloaded and organized according to that 528 00:38:27,885 --> 00:38:37,520 station's specific operations. Now in order to work right, an 529 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,880 RSS feed, which remember is really just a document listing 530 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,480 things that have been published elsewhere, has to adhere to two 531 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,055 standards. Syntactically, an RSS feed has to contain parsable 532 00:38:49,055 --> 00:38:50,015 XML. 533 00:38:50,095 --> 00:38:52,735 Tags need to be opened and closed correctly, nested 534 00:38:52,735 --> 00:38:55,935 properly, etcetera, etcetera. And it also has to follow the 535 00:38:55,935 --> 00:39:00,495 RSS standard. Use the right node names, contain the required 536 00:39:00,495 --> 00:39:04,500 nodes, and so on. This is what we mean when we say that RSS is 537 00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:10,820 standardized, but confusingly, there are a couple different RSS 538 00:39:10,820 --> 00:39:15,300 standards. The most common requires only three pieces of 539 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:15,620 info. 540 00:39:16,015 --> 00:39:20,655 A title for the feed, so for example, never post, a home page 541 00:39:20,655 --> 00:39:26,335 URL, so neverpoe.st, and a description, a podcast for and 542 00:39:26,335 --> 00:39:30,220 about the Internet hosted by Mike Rugnetta. That's it. An RSS 543 00:39:30,220 --> 00:39:34,940 feed doesn't need items to be valid. It can be empty. This is 544 00:39:34,940 --> 00:39:38,300 how you can subscribe to a newsletter, say, or a blog 545 00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:39,980 before it has any posts. 546 00:39:40,140 --> 00:39:42,380 Podcasts work a little differently, but that's a 547 00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:46,935 convention, not a requirement. And all of this is incidentally 548 00:39:46,935 --> 00:39:51,735 what makes RSS open. You can just go to where the standard is 549 00:39:51,735 --> 00:39:56,650 kept and see in plain text, human readable, what's required. 550 00:39:56,890 --> 00:39:59,450 And then you can go and implement that yourself. You 551 00:39:59,450 --> 00:40:00,650 don't need to pay a fee. 552 00:40:00,650 --> 00:40:03,370 You don't need to ask anyone permission, not the folks who 553 00:40:03,370 --> 00:40:07,130 publish the standard nor the folks who made it. But okay. 554 00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:11,255 Wait. This may make you wonder, who are those people? Who 555 00:40:11,255 --> 00:40:13,095 decided that this works this way? 556 00:40:13,095 --> 00:40:18,135 Who standardized this standard? Well, that's something of a long 557 00:40:18,135 --> 00:40:21,400 story, but we're gonna cover the broad strokes of it because 558 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,880 understanding how RSS was made can help us understand why it 559 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,200 feels like something of an antidote to the impersonal 560 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:37,865 algorithms heavy social internet. In the introduction of 561 00:40:37,865 --> 00:40:41,865 the 1995 O'Reilly book Developing Feeds with RSS and 562 00:40:41,865 --> 00:40:45,865 Adam, Ben Hammersley begins like this. It's an extended quote, 563 00:40:45,865 --> 00:40:48,600 but it's good, so I'm gonna read the whole thing. In the 564 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,320 developers bars of the world, those dark sordid places filled 565 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,040 with grizzled coders and their clans, a special corner is 566 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,240 always reserved for the developers of content 567 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:02,760 syndication standards. 568 00:41:03,615 --> 00:41:08,495 There, weeping into their beer, you'll find the veterans of a 569 00:41:08,495 --> 00:41:13,135 long and difficult process. The standards you will read about in 570 00:41:13,135 --> 00:41:18,490 this book were not born fresh and innocent of a streamlined 571 00:41:18,490 --> 00:41:24,170 process overseen by the wise and good. Rather, the following 572 00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:28,730 chapters have been dragged into the world and tempered through 573 00:41:28,730 --> 00:41:37,365 brawls, knife fights, and the occasional riot. Incredible. I 574 00:41:37,365 --> 00:41:40,965 mean, obviously tongue in cheek, but all of this melodrama for 575 00:41:40,965 --> 00:41:44,000 making a piece of tech that collects posts in a feed so they 576 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,600 can be syndicated elsewhere. 577 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:51,120 Why? Why so much torment and strife and conflict and pain? 578 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,640 Well, I mean, are nerds that we're talking about, and 579 00:41:55,995 --> 00:42:01,355 development on what would become RSS began in 1995. So these are 580 00:42:01,355 --> 00:42:05,675 early Internet nerds, or I guess early modern Internet nerds. 581 00:42:05,995 --> 00:42:08,795 Maybe there was a lot of ego involved. 582 00:42:08,795 --> 00:42:11,330 I mean, probably there was, but there was also a lot of 583 00:42:11,330 --> 00:42:15,170 principle at work. The developers of RSS were trying 584 00:42:15,410 --> 00:42:19,010 generally, I think, to follow the steps of Tim Berners Lee and 585 00:42:19,010 --> 00:42:21,490 the development of what is arguably the Internet's base 586 00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:26,595 technology, the hyperlink. The development of something so open 587 00:42:26,595 --> 00:42:31,395 and yet at the same time so narrow isn't easy, especially 588 00:42:31,395 --> 00:42:35,955 when you don't know exactly how it will be used yet. So that 589 00:42:35,955 --> 00:42:41,060 quote is pointing us even further back to Apple earlier in 590 00:42:41,060 --> 00:42:46,020 the mid nineties and a product called hot sauce developed by 591 00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:49,940 Ramanathan g Guha that was intended to allow users to 592 00:42:49,940 --> 00:42:56,155 browse documents like websites, for instance, in three d space. 593 00:42:57,035 --> 00:42:57,755 Yes. 594 00:42:57,835 --> 00:43:02,555 Really. Steve Jobs mothballed that project in 1997 when he 595 00:43:02,555 --> 00:43:07,435 returned to Apple, and Guha went to Netscape. And what followed 596 00:43:07,435 --> 00:43:11,800 was a flurry of activity over about two or three years between 597 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,680 Apple, Netscape, Microsoft, and independent developers who saw 598 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,640 the promise of these nascent syndication technologies for 599 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,805 bloggers. This would have been in the depths of the browser 600 00:43:25,805 --> 00:43:28,765 wars, if that's meaningful to anyone. Though if it's 601 00:43:28,765 --> 00:43:31,005 meaningful to you, you probably already know this history. 602 00:43:31,245 --> 00:43:34,925 Dan Libby of Netscape authored what would become the first RSS 603 00:43:34,925 --> 00:43:38,605 standard based upon a string of technology leading all the way 604 00:43:38,605 --> 00:43:42,260 back to hot sauce. But even though this was a momentous 605 00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:45,940 occasion, some folks were frustrated, and they saw this 606 00:43:45,940 --> 00:43:50,820 implementation as lacking. It could syndicate headlines, a 607 00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:56,935 list of links, basically, but not site content. So Dan Weiner 608 00:43:56,935 --> 00:44:00,615 of the software development company Userland and later and 609 00:44:00,615 --> 00:44:05,255 currently scripting.com would follow this first implementation 610 00:44:05,255 --> 00:44:12,210 of RSS with an update to his own scripting news feed format. Dan 611 00:44:12,210 --> 00:44:14,770 Weiner took a bunch of the stuff that was implemented in this 612 00:44:14,770 --> 00:44:19,970 first RSS standard, and he added the ability to syndicate whole 613 00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:21,330 paragraphs of content. 614 00:44:22,305 --> 00:44:26,145 This edition was really meaningful, and so then the next 615 00:44:26,145 --> 00:44:32,785 version of RSS 0.91 incorporated those features. This back and 616 00:44:32,785 --> 00:44:37,870 forth exemplifies a lot about what's great and messy about RSS 617 00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:42,350 specifically and open standards generally. We talked about this 618 00:44:42,350 --> 00:44:46,510 and all things RSS with Justin Jackson, cofounder of Transistor 619 00:44:46,510 --> 00:44:50,135 dot FM, the host we use for Never Post's member feed, but 620 00:44:50,135 --> 00:44:54,775 Justin is also a member of the Podcast Standards Project. This 621 00:44:54,775 --> 00:44:57,575 is what he had to say about the trade offs involved when 622 00:44:57,575 --> 00:44:59,255 building something that's open. 623 00:44:59,415 --> 00:45:02,055 Justin Jackson: The benefit of having a centralized platform is 624 00:45:02,055 --> 00:45:07,390 you can just have a CEO decide, we're gonna do this, and that's 625 00:45:07,390 --> 00:45:10,590 what we're doing. And with anything in the open protocol 626 00:45:10,590 --> 00:45:15,950 world, you have to create alignment. You have to do all of 627 00:45:15,950 --> 00:45:19,310 this groundwork with human beings, all this coordination 628 00:45:19,310 --> 00:45:19,550 work. 629 00:45:19,955 --> 00:45:23,235 Mike Rugnetta: A standard like RSS is not a piece of software 630 00:45:23,235 --> 00:45:26,595 that's made and then distributed. It's more just like 631 00:45:26,595 --> 00:45:30,755 a way of doing things that people can adopt or not. The 632 00:45:30,755 --> 00:45:34,660 standard is only really useful if the folks who use it, who 633 00:45:34,660 --> 00:45:38,580 bake it into their software, agree and coordinate with one 634 00:45:38,580 --> 00:45:43,060 another and align on when and where and how everything is 635 00:45:43,060 --> 00:45:47,155 implemented. And I don't know if you've noticed this, but getting 636 00:45:47,155 --> 00:45:51,475 people to agree to work together, especially in tech, is 637 00:45:51,475 --> 00:45:54,435 not easy. So this is where we get into the brawls and the 638 00:45:54,435 --> 00:45:56,275 knife fights and the riots. 639 00:45:56,595 --> 00:46:02,050 After Dan and Dave agree on RSS 0.91, a rift develops over 640 00:46:02,050 --> 00:46:07,170 effectively how extensible RSS should be. Should it do a small 641 00:46:07,170 --> 00:46:12,130 number of very specific things or should it do whatever people 642 00:46:12,130 --> 00:46:15,945 want it to as long as it follows a broad standard? The second 643 00:46:15,945 --> 00:46:20,025 approach relies on something called namespace. Effectively 644 00:46:20,025 --> 00:46:23,065 saying, if you want to add new nodes beyond the standard 645 00:46:23,065 --> 00:46:26,425 assortment that's already there, that's fine, but you have to put 646 00:46:26,425 --> 00:46:29,780 your name in front of it. Like say, iTunes. 647 00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:34,340 Hey, you already know how that works. Nice. One group says no 648 00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:37,140 to namespaces. It's gonna make things too complicated if you 649 00:46:37,140 --> 00:46:40,660 can stack whatever you want on top of the standard. And the 650 00:46:40,660 --> 00:46:42,405 other group says, yes. 651 00:46:42,405 --> 00:46:46,405 It's basically needed to make RSS useful and to give it 652 00:46:46,405 --> 00:46:50,005 longevity so people can expand on it. For those of you that 653 00:46:50,005 --> 00:46:53,205 know portions of this history, this is also around the time 654 00:46:53,205 --> 00:46:58,710 that a 14 year old Aaron Swartz gets involved with RSS. The 655 00:46:58,710 --> 00:47:02,870 solution ends up being, as we've mentioned, two standards which 656 00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:06,230 in recent years really have drifted closer and closer to one 657 00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:09,445 another in their feature set. But RSS two point o, the 658 00:47:09,445 --> 00:47:12,245 copyright for which was assigned to Harvard's Berkman Klein 659 00:47:12,245 --> 00:47:16,245 Center for Internet Law is by far the most implemented with 660 00:47:16,245 --> 00:47:21,525 over 70% of RSS feeds aligning to its standard which allows 661 00:47:22,170 --> 00:47:28,010 namespaces. This standard was finally solidified in 02/2003. 662 00:47:28,250 --> 00:47:35,805 We asked Justin, why hasn't RSS changed since then? Aren't there 663 00:47:35,805 --> 00:47:39,645 technical limitations inherent to a standard as old as this 664 00:47:39,645 --> 00:47:40,125 one? 665 00:47:40,125 --> 00:47:43,325 Justin Jackson: The original spec is probably not going to be 666 00:47:43,805 --> 00:47:47,850 changed much, because it doesn't really need to. Inside 667 00:47:47,850 --> 00:47:53,530 podcasting, we've continued to innovate on top of it. And that 668 00:47:53,530 --> 00:47:57,130 was one of the beautiful things about it. I would argue there's 669 00:47:57,130 --> 00:48:01,690 actually no technical limitations. I think you could 670 00:48:01,395 --> 00:48:05,235 anything that you want to build on top of RSS, you can. 671 00:48:05,635 --> 00:48:09,075 Even things that people have traditionally said don't work 672 00:48:09,075 --> 00:48:12,995 with RSS. Things like people will say, well, it's a typically 673 00:48:12,995 --> 00:48:18,050 one way. Right? I publish a blog post, or I publish a podcast 674 00:48:18,050 --> 00:48:22,770 episode. You refresh your app, and it, you know, picks up the 675 00:48:22,770 --> 00:48:26,290 new episode, and you pull it down to your RSS feed reader or 676 00:48:26,290 --> 00:48:27,410 your podcast app. 677 00:48:27,725 --> 00:48:31,325 But there's no reason we couldn't add two way 678 00:48:31,325 --> 00:48:36,605 communication to that. One one example of this is Transistor 679 00:48:36,605 --> 00:48:40,445 uses something called the social interact tag, which is this new 680 00:48:40,445 --> 00:48:46,270 podcasting two point o tag. And it allowed us to build on top of 681 00:48:46,270 --> 00:48:51,630 Blue Sky and the AT protocol. It allows people to add comments to 682 00:48:51,630 --> 00:48:56,345 podcast episodes. And these comments can be shared across 683 00:48:56,345 --> 00:48:57,145 networks. 684 00:48:57,145 --> 00:49:00,745 They can work in some ways, they're agnostic. They don't 685 00:49:00,745 --> 00:49:05,225 need a particular social network or platform. And so, you know, 686 00:49:05,225 --> 00:49:09,465 that that was a fairly simple implementation on top of RSS. So 687 00:49:09,465 --> 00:49:10,425 it's all possible. 688 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,160 Mike Rugnetta: So then why isn't RSS constantly evolving? Adding 689 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,160 video to podcast episodes or comments directly in the feed? 690 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:21,880 Based upon what we've said already, you can probably guess 691 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:22,680 the answer. 692 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,795 Justin Jackson: I think everything has just come down to 693 00:49:25,795 --> 00:49:29,475 coordination. You have to coordinate between three 694 00:49:29,475 --> 00:49:33,155 different groups, really. You have to coordinate between the 695 00:49:33,155 --> 00:49:38,515 podcast hosting companies, which are largely generating the RSS 696 00:49:38,515 --> 00:49:42,450 feeds and XML. You have to coordinate between the apps, and 697 00:49:42,450 --> 00:49:48,130 not just like independent apps, like Overcast or Podcast Guru, 698 00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:53,585 but bigger apps like Apple Podcasts. And then you have to 699 00:49:53,585 --> 00:49:55,825 coordinate between with creators. 700 00:49:56,545 --> 00:50:01,665 And creating alignment between those three groups is a 701 00:50:01,665 --> 00:50:07,090 challenge. What do creators actually want? There's figuring 702 00:50:07,090 --> 00:50:11,330 out how are we going to coordinate on between all these 703 00:50:11,330 --> 00:50:15,010 groups? How can we create alignment when everyone's 704 00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:16,530 motivated by something different? 705 00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:20,370 Mike Rugnetta: Now, as complicated and maybe as 706 00:50:19,675 --> 00:50:24,075 torporous as this process is, I do think it really is the 707 00:50:24,075 --> 00:50:29,195 beating heart of why RSS has persisted for as long as it has 708 00:50:29,195 --> 00:50:33,350 and is having something of a moment right now as we perhaps 709 00:50:33,350 --> 00:50:37,190 crest and then begin to descend the other side of the mountain 710 00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:41,670 that is the era of the social Internet. Ten to twelve years 711 00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:46,015 ago, RSS was considered outdated, if not dead. For Vice, 712 00:50:46,015 --> 00:50:50,095 in 2019, Sinclair Target writes of that era, people never felt 713 00:50:50,095 --> 00:50:54,175 comfortable using RSS. It hadn't really been designed as a 714 00:50:54,175 --> 00:50:57,775 consumer facing technology and involved too many hurdles. 715 00:50:58,015 --> 00:51:01,480 People jumped ship as soon as something better came along. 716 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,040 Target's not wrong. It's not easy for people to make RSS 717 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,080 feeds from whatever they happen upon. The hoi polloi benefits 718 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,440 from their existence as long as the folks doing the publishing, 719 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,765 making the podcasts, the blogs, the news stories, the weather 720 00:51:15,765 --> 00:51:19,045 updates, photographs, videos, whatever else might reasonably 721 00:51:19,045 --> 00:51:22,085 be found in a feed, are willing to put the effort into 722 00:51:22,085 --> 00:51:26,325 syndicating those things via an RSS feed, which has its own set 723 00:51:26,325 --> 00:51:29,830 of technological requirements and restrictions. And also 724 00:51:29,830 --> 00:51:33,110 incidentally tends to keep people off of the publishing 725 00:51:33,110 --> 00:51:38,150 site and therefore not looking at ads. Google Reader, the 726 00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:43,545 storied RSS aggregator was shut down on 07/01/2013, citing a 727 00:51:43,545 --> 00:51:46,185 slow and steady dwindling of its user base. 728 00:51:46,185 --> 00:51:49,145 The press release that announced the shuttering read, quote, 729 00:51:49,145 --> 00:51:52,185 while Google reader has a passionate user base, the 730 00:51:52,185 --> 00:51:55,065 product has not seen the growth or engagement that we had hoped 731 00:51:55,065 --> 00:51:58,345 for. We would like to refocus our efforts on more popular 732 00:51:58,345 --> 00:52:06,800 products that our users currently enjoy. The something 733 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,480 better that Target hints at? Social media. Twitter, 734 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:10,800 specifically. 735 00:52:11,235 --> 00:52:14,435 The cynical amongst us may also think that Google killed Reader 736 00:52:14,435 --> 00:52:18,035 in the hopes of boosting adoption of Google plus. 737 00:52:18,515 --> 00:52:22,675 Remember Google plus? No one else does either. We might 738 00:52:22,675 --> 00:52:28,280 consider 2013 ish the nadir of RSS's history to date, after 739 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,640 which it seems there's been a slow and similarly steady 740 00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,480 increase in interest around what the format provides. It's 741 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,265 possible even that we've yet to see the zenith of RSS's 742 00:52:39,265 --> 00:52:39,985 popularity. 743 00:52:39,985 --> 00:52:43,985 Justin Jackson: If there's gonna be a resurgence of RSS used for 744 00:52:43,985 --> 00:52:50,465 other things, like video, like articles, like social media 745 00:52:50,465 --> 00:52:56,920 posts, I think the problem to solve there is with app 746 00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:06,040 developers. How are we going to harness this fire hose and make 747 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:11,115 it make it helpful, useful. 748 00:53:11,835 --> 00:53:14,795 Mike Rugnetta: RSS is the way that it is and operates the way 749 00:53:14,795 --> 00:53:18,235 that it does and is supported in the ways that it is because 750 00:53:18,235 --> 00:53:23,310 disparate far flung groups of people decided actively that it 751 00:53:23,310 --> 00:53:26,590 should be that way, and that sort of agency is then passed on 752 00:53:26,590 --> 00:53:30,270 to the people who use it for better and worse. RSS isn't an 753 00:53:30,270 --> 00:53:33,475 algorithm. It does no curation. It doesn't collect information 754 00:53:33,475 --> 00:53:36,595 about you nor require a subscription fee. It allows you 755 00:53:36,595 --> 00:53:41,875 simply to know when your stories are on, which means to Justin's 756 00:53:41,875 --> 00:53:45,235 point, if you're not careful or if you want to, you can very 757 00:53:45,235 --> 00:53:47,795 easily overwhelm yourself with RSS. 758 00:53:48,210 --> 00:53:52,930 But if implemented and used in a certain way, it can also be an 759 00:53:52,930 --> 00:53:57,650 antidote to the overwhelm that we experience elsewhere on the 760 00:53:57,650 --> 00:53:58,290 Internet. 761 00:53:58,930 --> 00:54:02,225 Justin Jackson: I don't think it's mainstream, but there could 762 00:54:02,225 --> 00:54:07,985 be a world where Gen Z and maybe other generations as well just 763 00:54:07,985 --> 00:54:14,320 say, you know what? I'm kind of done with this centralized 764 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:20,240 commercial ad driven Internet that's just designed to give me 765 00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:28,115 brain rot, and designed to addict me. And I want something 766 00:54:28,115 --> 00:54:33,475 that's more mindful. And I think we already saw this with email. 767 00:54:33,795 --> 00:54:36,515 You know, there's this resurgence of email newsletters. 768 00:54:37,315 --> 00:54:42,220 So much of what made culture great in the sixties and 769 00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:45,500 seventies and eighties and nineties was that you had to 770 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:54,655 work for it. There was friction. And I think maybe our culture is 771 00:54:54,655 --> 00:54:59,295 starting to wake up to this idea that we need a bit more 772 00:54:59,295 --> 00:55:03,375 friction. We need a little bit more mess. We need not 773 00:55:03,375 --> 00:55:09,270 everything to just be perfect, but, you know, maybe it's worth 774 00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:14,550 working to find a podcast you really like, even though it's 775 00:55:14,550 --> 00:55:15,750 not easy. 776 00:55:15,910 --> 00:55:22,765 Maybe it's worth having an episode of Radiotopia show up in 777 00:55:22,765 --> 00:55:27,005 your feed and you're like, that sounds boring. But then it auto 778 00:55:27,005 --> 00:55:30,525 plays when you're on a long road trip, and you're like, actually, 779 00:55:30,525 --> 00:55:36,540 that was really great. I'm glad I'm glad I didn't just swipe 780 00:55:36,540 --> 00:55:42,140 away from that after listening. You know, I that is my hope is 781 00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:48,685 that if anything, I think we're just gonna go back to some of 782 00:55:48,685 --> 00:55:52,125 the old ways of doing things because we just realize we need 783 00:55:52,125 --> 00:55:52,685 it. 784 00:55:57,965 --> 00:56:00,525 Mike Rugnetta: Thank you so much to Justin for chatting with us. 785 00:56:00,525 --> 00:56:04,550 You can find Justin on Blue Sky at Justin Jackson dot c a. And 786 00:56:04,550 --> 00:56:09,190 if you are so inclined, can host your podcast at transistor.fm. 787 00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:12,470 They did not pay us to say that we got Justin on this segment 788 00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:16,310 because he is an expert, but we also just happen to be big fans 789 00:56:16,310 --> 00:56:21,975 of transistor. I hope this terms and conditions was instructive. 790 00:56:22,055 --> 00:56:25,415 Are there things about the Internet that you want us to 791 00:56:25,415 --> 00:56:28,775 explain to you because you're not going to go do the research 792 00:56:28,775 --> 00:56:32,630 yourself? Listen. I get it. Send us an email. Send us a voice 793 00:56:32,630 --> 00:56:34,070 memo or a voice mail. 794 00:56:34,070 --> 00:56:37,750 Let us know what you wanna know about and who knows, maybe it 795 00:56:37,750 --> 00:58:33,050 will be the next terms and conditions segment. That is the 796 00:58:33,050 --> 00:58:34,890 show we have for you this week. We're gonna be back here on the 797 00:58:34,890 --> 00:58:40,085 main feed on Wednesday, August 27, but we will be on Twitch all 798 00:58:40,085 --> 00:58:45,445 next week. Join us at twitch.tv/the never post. Check 799 00:58:45,445 --> 00:58:47,605 the newsletter and the website for a schedule. 800 00:58:48,005 --> 00:58:51,600 I got some notes recently that I should not joke about not 801 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,560 knowing what it is we do on the show and that in addition to 802 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,600 being not true, it's also just kind of an irritating millennial 803 00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,040 move to be like, oh, we're just a small bean. I don't know what 804 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:05,555 we're doing show. So Here's the facts. Never post is a media and 805 00:59:05,555 --> 00:59:08,675 technology criticism in theory podcast which takes the position 806 00:59:08,675 --> 00:59:12,435 that for better and worse, one of the best ways to understand 807 00:59:12,435 --> 00:59:16,190 contemporary western society is through an understanding of the 808 00:59:16,190 --> 00:59:19,390 internet and how our interactions with it shape our 809 00:59:19,390 --> 00:59:23,150 outlooks, our relationships, our sense of what's happening, and 810 00:59:23,150 --> 00:59:27,230 what's possible. My friend George said the show is NPR for 811 00:59:27,230 --> 00:59:28,270 the terminally online. 812 00:59:29,215 --> 00:59:33,375 Does that make Hans or Terry Gross? Does Georgia Arnetta Ulla 813 00:59:33,375 --> 00:59:39,615 be? Oh, no. Am I the Ira Glass become a member? At neverpo.st. 814 00:59:48,210 --> 00:59:51,410 Never posts producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the 815 00:59:51,410 --> 00:59:54,450 mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior producer 816 00:59:54,450 --> 00:59:58,205 is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer. 817 00:59:58,205 --> 01:00:04,205 The show's host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. Not verb, but 818 01:00:04,205 --> 01:00:05,245 vertigo. 819 01:00:05,565 --> 01:00:10,365 Does not indicate action. Does not mean go to meet, but rather 820 01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:15,270 to lie there because someone doesn't arrive. To Search by 821 01:00:15,270 --> 01:00:19,030 Alejandra Pizarnik. Never Post is a production of charts and 822 01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:22,390 leisure. It is distributed by Radiotopia.