1 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:15,785 Georgia Hampton: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:15,785 --> 00:00:20,665 podcast for and about the Internet. I am producer Georgia. 3 00:00:20,985 --> 00:00:26,905 This intro was written on 03/31/2026 at 03:50PM central 4 00:00:26,905 --> 00:00:33,940 time, and we have a litigious show for you this week. In this 5 00:00:33,940 --> 00:00:37,860 episode, we're bringing back our series Terms and Conditions, 6 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:40,740 where we spend some time with Internet related concepts, 7 00:00:40,955 --> 00:00:45,835 practices, and ideas to better understand how they work and the 8 00:00:45,835 --> 00:00:49,995 context in which they exist. Today, I am chatting with 9 00:00:49,995 --> 00:00:54,315 author, professor, and digital piracy expert, Aram Synreich, 10 00:00:54,315 --> 00:00:56,350 about torrenting. 11 00:00:56,750 --> 00:01:00,990 Peer to peer file sharing isn't new, nor are the ongoing legal 12 00:01:00,990 --> 00:01:07,310 controversies surrounding it. But what is torrenting? Why does 13 00:01:07,310 --> 00:01:11,475 it have such a marred reputation, and what is its role 14 00:01:11,475 --> 00:01:16,595 in our online lives? But first, we're gonna take a quick break. 15 00:01:16,675 --> 00:01:19,075 You'll listen to some ads, unless you're on the member 16 00:01:19,075 --> 00:01:19,635 feed. 17 00:01:19,715 --> 00:01:22,595 And when we return, we'll talk about a few of the things that 18 00:01:22,595 --> 00:01:28,040 have happened since the last time you heard from us. I have 19 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:33,240 got six news items for you this week. Firstly, in show news, 20 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,080 we've been nominated for a Webby award. Eagle eared listeners 21 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:42,040 will remember that we won the Webby for best podcast live 22 00:01:41,295 --> 00:01:46,975 recording last year for our xoxo fest live show in 2024. This 23 00:01:46,975 --> 00:01:50,975 year, we're up for best individual episode in the news 24 00:01:50,975 --> 00:01:56,430 and politics category for Mike's incredible episode titled AI and 25 00:01:56,430 --> 00:01:58,110 New American Fascism. 26 00:01:58,430 --> 00:02:01,710 If you'd like to vote for us, we will include the link to do so 27 00:02:01,710 --> 00:02:06,830 in the show notes. Huzzah. The Federal Communications 28 00:02:06,830 --> 00:02:11,915 Commission has banned all new consumer based Internet routers 29 00:02:11,915 --> 00:02:16,235 made outside of The United States. Importantly, the ban 30 00:02:16,235 --> 00:02:19,835 does not affect any foreign made routers that are already being 31 00:02:19,835 --> 00:02:23,195 sold in The United States, nor ones that already exist in 32 00:02:23,195 --> 00:02:28,920 American homes. But any new foreign made models are banned, 33 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,120 unless they can be approved by the FCC and the Department of 34 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,080 Defense and the Department of Homeland Security. 35 00:02:37,955 --> 00:02:41,475 This comes as a result of alleged national security 36 00:02:41,475 --> 00:02:45,155 concerns around these newer models. With the FCC writing in 37 00:02:45,155 --> 00:02:49,235 a statement that, quote, malicious actors have exploited 38 00:02:49,235 --> 00:02:53,010 security gaps in foreign made routers to attack American 39 00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:57,890 households, disrupt networks, enable espionage, and facilitate 40 00:02:57,890 --> 00:03:03,835 intellectual property theft. But how real that threat actually is 41 00:03:04,555 --> 00:03:09,435 remains unclear. Virtually all Internet routers sold in The 42 00:03:09,435 --> 00:03:14,475 United States are manufactured at least in part overseas. And 43 00:03:14,475 --> 00:03:18,950 it is also unclear what elements of manufacturing process fall 44 00:03:18,950 --> 00:03:20,150 under this ban. 45 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:25,350 But as a spokesman from TP Link told Wired, quote, it appears 46 00:03:25,350 --> 00:03:30,550 that the entire router industry will be impacted, unquote. And 47 00:03:30,550 --> 00:03:41,015 that, invariably, includes us as consumers. Hachette Book Group 48 00:03:41,015 --> 00:03:45,815 has pulled one of its latest releases from shelves after 49 00:03:45,090 --> 00:03:50,210 suspecting that the novel was written by AI. The book in 50 00:03:50,210 --> 00:03:55,490 question is Shy Girl, the debut novel written, allegedly, by Mia 51 00:03:55,490 --> 00:04:01,075 Ballard. The book was first self published in February 2025, and 52 00:04:01,075 --> 00:04:03,635 later picked up by Hachette in the fall. 53 00:04:04,035 --> 00:04:06,995 The novel revolves around a young woman who is forced to 54 00:04:06,995 --> 00:04:11,875 live as the pet of an abusive, controlling man. And in some 55 00:04:11,875 --> 00:04:16,570 corners of the internet, this shocking, brutal story was first 56 00:04:16,570 --> 00:04:21,450 celebrated as a kind of extreme feminist horror. But over time, 57 00:04:21,690 --> 00:04:25,610 more and more readers started to post online with theories that 58 00:04:25,610 --> 00:04:29,565 the story wasn't just badly written, but the product of AI 59 00:04:29,565 --> 00:04:35,085 slop. Flash forward to March 19 when the New York Times broke 60 00:04:35,085 --> 00:04:39,245 the story that Hachette was both canceling Shy Girls debut in The 61 00:04:39,245 --> 00:04:44,420 United States and removing it from shelves in The UK because 62 00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:49,380 of widespread allegations of AI use. Mia Ballard, for her part, 63 00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:53,060 has completely denied these claims, telling the New York 64 00:04:53,060 --> 00:04:56,900 Times that it was actually her editor who had used AI when 65 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:58,085 working on the text. 66 00:04:58,645 --> 00:05:05,445 But Ballard did not elaborate on how exactly this AI editing took 67 00:05:05,445 --> 00:05:13,620 place. A New Mexico jury found Meta guilty guilty of misleading 68 00:05:13,620 --> 00:05:17,620 its consumers about the safety of its platforms and enabling 69 00:05:17,620 --> 00:05:25,540 child endangerment. Now, Meta owes $375,000,000 in civil 70 00:05:25,540 --> 00:05:30,315 penalties. That would be a story worthy in and of itself, except 71 00:05:30,715 --> 00:05:36,955 that one day later, Meta was back in court again, losing big 72 00:05:36,955 --> 00:05:42,410 time. In the second trial, Meta and YouTube were found liable in 73 00:05:42,410 --> 00:05:45,770 creating addictive social media platforms that endanger the 74 00:05:45,770 --> 00:05:47,770 emotional well-being of its users. 75 00:05:48,250 --> 00:05:52,250 A young woman using the pseudonym Kaylee sued both tech 76 00:05:52,250 --> 00:05:55,205 giants, blaming them for her childhood social media 77 00:05:55,205 --> 00:06:01,205 addiction. Kaylee has now been awarded $6,000,000 in damages. 78 00:06:01,685 --> 00:06:05,445 In response, Meta released a statement saying that, quote, 79 00:06:06,030 --> 00:06:10,350 teen mental health is profoundly complex and cannot be linked to 80 00:06:10,350 --> 00:06:14,110 a single app. We will continue to defend ourselves vigorously 81 00:06:14,110 --> 00:06:18,510 as every case is different, and we remain confident in our 82 00:06:18,045 --> 00:06:22,765 record of protecting teens online. Sure. 83 00:06:22,765 --> 00:06:30,285 Totally for sure. Where have all the doge bros gone? Turns out, 84 00:06:30,845 --> 00:06:34,950 they've gone viral. Earlier this month, video footage from the 85 00:06:34,950 --> 00:06:38,550 deposition of former Department of Government efficiency 86 00:06:38,550 --> 00:06:44,390 employees, Justin Fox and Nate Kavanaugh, spread like wildfire 87 00:06:44,390 --> 00:06:48,325 across the social Internet. The videos showed the two men 88 00:06:48,325 --> 00:06:53,605 admitting to using ChatGPT to filter out grants based on words 89 00:06:53,605 --> 00:06:59,010 like black or homosexual, but not terms like white or 90 00:06:59,010 --> 00:06:59,970 Caucasian. 91 00:07:00,290 --> 00:07:03,330 They also struggled to answer simple questions about what 92 00:07:03,330 --> 00:07:08,530 exactly DEI even was. The videos from these depositions were 93 00:07:08,530 --> 00:07:13,375 originally posted on YouTube and shared across social platforms 94 00:07:13,375 --> 00:07:18,015 before a judge ruled that they needed to be taken down out of 95 00:07:18,015 --> 00:07:21,615 concern for the safety of Fox, Kavanaugh, and their families. 96 00:07:21,935 --> 00:07:24,975 This ruling was reversed a little over two weeks later, 97 00:07:25,380 --> 00:07:29,460 citing the first amendment. But what's most interesting was what 98 00:07:29,460 --> 00:07:34,580 happened in those two weeks. Because, yes, the videos were 99 00:07:34,580 --> 00:07:35,780 taken down from YouTube. 100 00:07:35,780 --> 00:07:38,900 But it turned out that doing that didn't really make a 101 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:43,695 difference because they had already been backed up online. 102 00:07:44,335 --> 00:07:48,655 Four zero four media reported that only a single day after the 103 00:07:48,655 --> 00:07:51,695 videos were taken down, the Internet Archive had already 104 00:07:51,695 --> 00:07:56,480 reuploaded a saved version of the videos. Plus, both 105 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,400 depositions had already been saved another way. They had been 106 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:01,920 torrented. Arrr. 107 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,520 And speaking of torrenting, oh, how far we have strayed from the 108 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,205 days of Limewire. In a surprising unanimous supreme 109 00:08:12,205 --> 00:08:15,325 court ruling, the internet service provider Cox 110 00:08:15,325 --> 00:08:19,645 Communications was found not liable for the illegal 111 00:08:19,645 --> 00:08:22,685 downloading and sharing of copyrighted music done through 112 00:08:22,685 --> 00:08:27,080 its services. The case was brought to court by dozens of 113 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,840 major music companies who claimed that Cox Communications 114 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,960 hadn't done enough to sufficiently stop its users from 115 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,645 engaging in piracy. But as it turns out, that wasn't enough to 116 00:08:38,645 --> 00:08:41,445 convince the court to put the responsibility of this behavior 117 00:08:41,445 --> 00:08:45,845 on any given Internet provider. Justice Clarence Thomas read 118 00:08:45,845 --> 00:08:50,580 aloud his opinion that, quote, under our precedence, a company 119 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:55,140 is not liable as a copyright infringer for merely providing a 120 00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:58,740 service to the general public with knowledge that it will be 121 00:08:58,740 --> 00:09:01,700 used by some to infringe copyrights. 122 00:09:01,700 --> 00:09:06,825 Hahar, medicate. This is exactly why the conversation you're 123 00:09:06,825 --> 00:09:11,385 about to hear felt so important to share right now. Torrenting 124 00:09:11,385 --> 00:09:14,105 is one of those countless Internet y things that gets 125 00:09:14,105 --> 00:09:17,705 talked about a lot, but at least for me, was something that was 126 00:09:17,705 --> 00:09:21,240 never explained clearly enough for me to feel like I really 127 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,680 understood it. So for this installment of terms and 128 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:29,880 conditions, that is exactly what we are going to try to do. So 129 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,360 after the break, we'll talk Torrenting. 130 00:09:49,570 --> 00:09:53,890 There's something you should know up top. Out of the entire 131 00:09:53,890 --> 00:09:58,930 Never Post staff, I undeniably know the least about Torrenting. 132 00:09:59,465 --> 00:10:02,345 Going into the research for this episode, this is basically 133 00:10:02,345 --> 00:10:06,825 everything I knew. One, Torrenting is a kind of 134 00:10:06,825 --> 00:10:10,985 decentralized file sharing done through peer to peer networks. 135 00:10:10,985 --> 00:10:15,500 So stuff like the now defunct platforms of Napster and 136 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:16,300 Limewire. 137 00:10:16,540 --> 00:10:20,060 Two, it's how a lot of people I know downloaded and watched 138 00:10:20,060 --> 00:10:25,340 movies. And three, once, my friend got a cease and desist 139 00:10:25,340 --> 00:10:28,655 letter from DreamWorks because she did not realize that the 140 00:10:28,655 --> 00:10:32,175 Torrent file for she's the man that she was trying to download 141 00:10:32,495 --> 00:10:38,415 never stopped downloading for, I kid you not, multiple years. But 142 00:10:38,415 --> 00:10:42,010 that's basically it. So this episode of terms and conditions 143 00:10:42,010 --> 00:10:46,570 is partially for my own benefit. Because as a kind of Internet 144 00:10:46,570 --> 00:10:49,610 journalist, it is ridiculous for me not to know more about 145 00:10:49,610 --> 00:10:50,490 torrenting. 146 00:10:50,650 --> 00:10:53,690 And also, frankly, considering the ongoing news about the 147 00:10:53,690 --> 00:10:58,055 topics of file sharing and piracy, I don't really think I 148 00:10:58,055 --> 00:11:02,055 can afford to not know about this. So to better understand 149 00:11:02,055 --> 00:11:06,455 torrenting as a practice and as a concept within a broader 150 00:11:06,455 --> 00:11:12,690 cultural context, I brought in Erem Sinreich. Erem is a media 151 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:16,450 professor at American University in the School of Communication. 152 00:11:16,690 --> 00:11:20,690 He's a musician and he's an author. But the reason I knew he 153 00:11:20,690 --> 00:11:24,050 would be the best person to talk about Torrenting is that he has 154 00:11:24,050 --> 00:11:28,945 spent decades covering Torrenting and file sharing and 155 00:11:28,945 --> 00:11:29,665 piracy. 156 00:11:30,065 --> 00:11:33,585 Aram has written multiple books about those topics, including 157 00:11:33,585 --> 00:11:37,345 The Secret Life of Data and The Piracy Crusade. You'll hear the 158 00:11:37,345 --> 00:11:40,305 two of us talk more specifically about The Piracy Crusade in a 159 00:11:40,305 --> 00:11:44,920 little bit. Suffice it to say, I knew he would be the perfect 160 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,400 person to help me understand the basics of torrenting and to 161 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:54,200 contextualize it in a culture that has I mean, for my entire 162 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:59,495 life, demonized peer to peer file sharing as something as 163 00:11:59,495 --> 00:12:06,295 unforgivably illegal as stealing a car. So I started out our 164 00:12:06,295 --> 00:12:14,190 conversation with a very simple question. In the simplest 165 00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:18,430 technological terms, how does torrenting work? 166 00:12:18,670 --> 00:12:22,995 Aram Sinnreich: So in order to torrent, you have to first 167 00:12:22,995 --> 00:12:25,795 download a file that's like a little pointer file. You don't 168 00:12:25,795 --> 00:12:29,235 you don't go onto the internet and download an m p three. You 169 00:12:29,235 --> 00:12:33,395 download like a little like 100 k file that says, here's what 170 00:12:33,395 --> 00:12:36,760 the m p three looks like in a bit torrenting network and some 171 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,120 of the places you could go to ask if anyone has one. And then 172 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,400 you load that little file into a BitTorrent client and then the 173 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,680 BitTorrent client asks everyone in the network, do you have this 174 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:48,600 file? And then you get to download it. 175 00:12:49,045 --> 00:12:52,245 So those websites where you download the little Torrent file 176 00:12:52,485 --> 00:12:57,125 became social websites. And they actually developed their this 177 00:12:57,125 --> 00:13:01,750 whole very well articulated system of social credit where 178 00:13:01,750 --> 00:13:04,710 people would have like credit scores, and those credit scores 179 00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:08,550 would then be interpreted through the technology to say 180 00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:11,510 how much permission people had to download how many files and 181 00:13:11,510 --> 00:13:15,110 how quickly. And people developed reputations for being 182 00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:18,295 seeders rather than leechers, That is people who are willing 183 00:13:18,295 --> 00:13:22,455 to upload as well as download. And and all this kind of social 184 00:13:22,455 --> 00:13:27,495 language and these social protocols emerged around this 185 00:13:27,495 --> 00:13:30,615 practice. But again, because it wasn't built into the tech, 186 00:13:30,615 --> 00:13:31,975 people had to kind of build it themselves. 187 00:13:32,410 --> 00:13:35,450 Georgia Hampton: I like that there's this community component 188 00:13:35,450 --> 00:13:39,930 here. But I also have to imagine that this process isn't one 189 00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:46,090 that's smooth every single time. Right? Like, I have virtually no 190 00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:50,025 experience with torrenting, but I do know that it comes with a 191 00:13:50,025 --> 00:13:54,105 certain set of risks. Obviously, you have the possibility that 192 00:13:54,105 --> 00:13:56,745 the file you download is actually a virus. 193 00:13:57,145 --> 00:14:01,065 There's also, like, legal threats in the sense of 194 00:14:01,065 --> 00:14:05,690 downloading a movie might get you unwanted attention from a 195 00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:12,010 giant movie studio or something. So in that case, what are the 196 00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:16,410 best practices for torrenting? What tools do you need? 197 00:14:16,845 --> 00:14:20,365 Aram Sinnreich: The number one thing you need is to use a VPN 198 00:14:20,925 --> 00:14:27,325 because all of the litigation is based on IP addresses. So you 199 00:14:27,325 --> 00:14:30,605 need to effectively mask your IP address and you need a VPN that 200 00:14:30,605 --> 00:14:35,280 doesn't log your own online traffic, make sure you have good 201 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,400 antivirus. Scan everything that you download. And then there are 202 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:47,040 some BitTorrent trackers that are laden down with malware and 203 00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:51,705 scammy porn ads and and sports betting ads and stuff like that. 204 00:14:51,705 --> 00:14:54,825 And you want to kind of figure out which ones those are and go 205 00:14:54,825 --> 00:14:59,065 to more altruistically oriented BitTorrent trackers to download, 206 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,400 you know, the little 100 k file. 207 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:08,040 So so I would say like, look at a blog like Torrent Freak, which 208 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,040 has been out for a long time, and get their advice about the 209 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,015 best software to use, the best websites to visit, the best VPNs 210 00:15:16,015 --> 00:15:19,615 to employ, and and practice data hygiene. 211 00:15:20,095 --> 00:15:25,135 Georgia Hampton: I wanna shift us to a more cultural context 212 00:15:25,375 --> 00:15:30,470 with Torrenting because it has, I mean, it has a reputation, you 213 00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:38,870 know? Like, I synonymize torrenting with piracy. So does 214 00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:41,110 torrenting always mean piracy? 215 00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:44,055 Aram Sinnreich: No. No. Of course, it doesn't. In fact, the 216 00:15:44,055 --> 00:15:47,175 vast majority of torrenting has nothing to do with so called 217 00:15:47,175 --> 00:15:51,495 piracy. These days, most if you took a look at Internet traffic 218 00:15:51,495 --> 00:15:55,735 and you analyzed it, most of what is classified as torrenting 219 00:15:55,735 --> 00:15:59,790 is really kind of back end content management for big media 220 00:15:59,790 --> 00:16:00,430 companies. 221 00:16:00,670 --> 00:16:02,510 Georgia Hampton: Say more about that. What does that mean? 222 00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:05,390 Aram Sinnreich: So the thing that torrenting is really good 223 00:16:05,390 --> 00:16:08,830 at is taking big files and breaking them up into super tiny 224 00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:11,230 pieces, and then spreading them through the network and 225 00:16:11,230 --> 00:16:14,355 reassembling them. And as it turns out, companies like 226 00:16:14,355 --> 00:16:19,075 Spotify and Netflix need that kind of back end infrastructure 227 00:16:19,075 --> 00:16:22,435 in order to manage their huge content libraries and move them 228 00:16:22,435 --> 00:16:25,795 seamlessly all around the world. So in addition to kind of edge 229 00:16:25,795 --> 00:16:30,220 of network service, servers, and peering arrangements, torrenting 230 00:16:30,220 --> 00:16:33,100 and similar technologies have for the last fifteen years been 231 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:35,420 an important part of that back end. 232 00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:39,020 Georgia Hampton: I had no idea that a place like Spotify uses 233 00:16:40,075 --> 00:16:41,115 torrenting. 234 00:16:41,675 --> 00:16:44,155 Aram Sinnreich: I think they replaced it with a torrent like 235 00:16:44,155 --> 00:16:47,035 protocol a couple years back. 236 00:16:47,035 --> 00:16:47,675 Georgia Hampton: Okay. 237 00:16:47,675 --> 00:16:51,275 Aram Sinnreich: But they did use torrenting for many years as so 238 00:16:51,275 --> 00:16:53,755 did Netflix, so did I think YouTube, if I remember 239 00:16:53,755 --> 00:16:54,155 correctly. 240 00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:55,740 Georgia Hampton: How ironic. 241 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:59,660 Aram Sinnreich: Yeah. It is. It is. Even as they're all the 242 00:16:59,660 --> 00:17:02,540 Hollywood studios were were demonizing it. It's funny, you 243 00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:05,020 know, one of the things I've done over the years is I've been 244 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:08,300 an expert witness on a bunch of court cases about file sharing. 245 00:17:08,585 --> 00:17:12,665 Woah. Actually, first one was Grokster, which went to the US 246 00:17:12,665 --> 00:17:14,425 Supreme Court back in 2003. 247 00:17:14,425 --> 00:17:15,305 Georgia Hampton: Oh my god. 248 00:17:15,465 --> 00:17:17,385 Aram Sinnreich: I know. Yeah. Had I didn't know it was gonna 249 00:17:17,385 --> 00:17:19,785 go to the Supreme Court, you know. Otherwise, I would have 250 00:17:19,785 --> 00:17:23,760 done a better job. But you know, I still do I still do a fair 251 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,640 amount of expert witnessing and and Torrenting still comes up. 252 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,560 And what you see, I can't reveal the details of any of these 253 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,520 cases because a lot of it is under seal. But generally 254 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,295 speaking, the arguments that you see the plaintiffs make in these 255 00:17:37,295 --> 00:17:42,655 cases is, we looked at this traffic analysis and it said 7% 256 00:17:42,655 --> 00:17:45,775 of all internet traffic is BitTorrent. Therefore, it's a 257 00:17:45,775 --> 00:17:50,470 massive piracy problem. And then my job is to say, actually, out 258 00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:55,750 of that 7%, you know, 6.85% is like back end systems for the 259 00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:59,270 Spotify's of the world. And that remaining point one five 260 00:17:59,590 --> 00:18:02,630 consists of all kinds of other stuff of which music is only 261 00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:04,175 this teensy little piece. 262 00:18:04,175 --> 00:18:07,615 So like, you know, don't get like too exercised about it. 263 00:18:07,615 --> 00:18:10,415 This is actually a tiny tiny problem, not a huge huge 264 00:18:10,415 --> 00:18:11,055 problem. 265 00:18:11,375 --> 00:18:15,295 Georgia Hampton: That's that seems so different than my, 266 00:18:15,295 --> 00:18:18,610 like, layperson understanding of what that means, what that 267 00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:24,530 practice is. And I'm curious kind of why that is. Like, if if 268 00:18:24,530 --> 00:18:27,410 torrenting isn't always piracy, and if anything, like you just 269 00:18:27,410 --> 00:18:30,770 said, it kind of often really isn't at all, and is used by 270 00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:34,755 these massive companies that would otherwise, you know, take 271 00:18:34,755 --> 00:18:39,235 legal action against something like torrenting as piracy. How 272 00:18:39,235 --> 00:18:45,840 did torrenting come to be defined by its use circumventing 273 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,240 access and copyright restrictions? Like, how did it 274 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,160 become synonymous, at least from my perspective, with a kind of 275 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:52,880 piracy? 276 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,400 Aram Sinnreich: There was a sustained public relations 277 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,385 campaign undertaken mostly by the music industry from 2003 to 278 00:19:00,385 --> 00:19:04,305 2008, which resulted in a massive change of the framing of 279 00:19:04,305 --> 00:19:07,425 this technology in mainstream media. And that framing has 280 00:19:07,425 --> 00:19:08,865 stuck with us ever since. 281 00:19:09,265 --> 00:19:12,065 Georgia Hampton: So this dovetails very nicely into 282 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,000 something I know you've written about, which is this notion of 283 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,040 this legal affront on piracy and on, I guess, torrenting in in 284 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:27,365 some capacity as part of that as a kind of crusade. Why why is 285 00:19:27,365 --> 00:19:29,285 the term crusade so apt? 286 00:19:29,685 --> 00:19:32,885 Aram Sinnreich: So so the fight against torrenting by media 287 00:19:32,885 --> 00:19:37,205 industries, it kind of puts this moralistic screen on what's 288 00:19:37,205 --> 00:19:40,740 really a form of economic self interest and and short term 289 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:43,860 economic self interest that doesn't really pay attention to 290 00:19:43,860 --> 00:19:47,060 the kind of knock on consequences of waging the war 291 00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:51,585 itself. And in my book, The Piracy Crusade, I squander a lot 292 00:19:51,585 --> 00:19:54,865 of ink talking about all of those knock on consequences and 293 00:19:54,865 --> 00:19:57,985 the way that they in in unexpected ways come back to 294 00:19:57,985 --> 00:19:59,825 bite the industry in the butt. 295 00:19:59,825 --> 00:20:01,105 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I'm curious to hear a little bit 296 00:20:01,105 --> 00:20:04,705 more about that because I was very interested to see in the 297 00:20:04,705 --> 00:20:08,190 introduction of your book, how you specifically say that this 298 00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:11,950 is a short term solution and that it doesn't actually protect 299 00:20:11,950 --> 00:20:17,150 the long term interests of these so called crusaders or the 300 00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:21,470 government that serves as their allies. So so why is that? 301 00:20:21,965 --> 00:20:24,205 Aram Sinnreich: I mean, you have to remember the context in which 302 00:20:24,205 --> 00:20:28,445 peer to peer file sharing first emerged in The US and elsewhere. 303 00:20:28,445 --> 00:20:33,325 You know, flash all the way back pre BitTorrent to 1999 when this 304 00:20:33,325 --> 00:20:37,460 thing called Napster comes out. Some kid in his college dorm 305 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:40,740 named Sean Fanning invented this little piece of software that 306 00:20:40,740 --> 00:20:44,980 allowed anybody who had access to it to freely share all of 307 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:47,940 their m p threes with anybody else on the internet and to 308 00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:51,745 download all of the m p threes from everyone else. Prior to 309 00:20:51,745 --> 00:20:56,945 that time, in like May 1999, the music industry estimated that 310 00:20:56,945 --> 00:21:00,305 there were half a million m p threes on the entire Internet. 311 00:21:00,545 --> 00:21:05,630 And and then June, Napster comes out and by like August, there 312 00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:09,710 are billions of m p threes being transacted every day among tens 313 00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:12,190 of millions of active users of this platform. 314 00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:12,990 Georgia Hampton: Wow. 315 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:15,070 Aram Sinnreich: Modernity was born that day. Like the world 316 00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:21,085 that we now live in was was born in June 1999. Now, at the time, 317 00:21:21,165 --> 00:21:25,965 I was a music industry and Internet industry analyst. And 318 00:21:25,965 --> 00:21:28,525 along with a bunch of other of my contemporaries, we were 319 00:21:28,525 --> 00:21:32,445 arguing that because of the Internet and because of digital 320 00:21:32,445 --> 00:21:38,530 technology and the kind of low cost of storage, the future of 321 00:21:38,530 --> 00:21:41,810 media wasn't going to be the kind of like pay for access to a 322 00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:43,890 single thing model that we've seen during the twentieth 323 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:47,170 century where you walked up to a store and you gave them $20 and 324 00:21:47,170 --> 00:21:50,185 they gave you a CD with 12 songs on it, And then you went back 325 00:21:50,185 --> 00:21:54,265 the next time your allowance was topped up. But that now, the 326 00:21:54,265 --> 00:21:57,065 problem was that there was so much abundance of information 327 00:21:57,465 --> 00:22:01,705 that the business model had to be prioritizing this song or 328 00:22:01,705 --> 00:22:04,505 this movie over all of the other millions of ones that someone 329 00:22:04,505 --> 00:22:05,650 could have access to. 330 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:08,130 And that meant you were switching to a model that we now 331 00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:12,210 think of as the streaming model. And I was an early and, you 332 00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:17,330 know, loud advocate for that model. So I did some research, 333 00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:24,175 big survey at the time, and I found out that by the 2000, 334 00:22:24,495 --> 00:22:27,535 people who'd been using Napster were actually buying more music 335 00:22:27,535 --> 00:22:30,815 than the people who weren't using Napster. Even if you 336 00:22:30,815 --> 00:22:33,535 controlled for like how much money they made, how much music 337 00:22:33,535 --> 00:22:36,880 they bought in the past, Like every other factor, people who 338 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,240 are demographically identical to each other, if they were using 339 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,880 Napster, they were like half again as likely to have 340 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,200 increased the amount of money they spent on music in the last 341 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,095 year. So people were like actually discovering and 342 00:22:48,095 --> 00:22:48,975 learning about it. 343 00:22:49,455 --> 00:22:53,055 And I I went running to my record label clients and I was 344 00:22:53,055 --> 00:22:56,255 like, you guys, the best thing in the world just happened. 345 00:22:56,255 --> 00:22:59,570 Like, I know that you've got record revenues now, but you're 346 00:22:59,570 --> 00:23:04,130 about to grow your revenues by 50% just by licensing to this 347 00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:08,370 cool new platform. And they literally, not only stopped 348 00:23:08,370 --> 00:23:12,530 being my clients more or less overnight, but issued a press 349 00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:17,685 release about how I was full of shit and and I was I was not to 350 00:23:17,685 --> 00:23:18,325 be listened to. 351 00:23:18,325 --> 00:23:20,245 Georgia Hampton: Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh my god. 352 00:23:20,245 --> 00:23:22,485 Aram Sinnreich: Yeah. Like a smear a genuine smear campaign. 353 00:23:22,485 --> 00:23:26,165 The first of several that I've experienced at the hands of the 354 00:23:26,165 --> 00:23:30,450 music industry over the years. Yeah. And then this interesting 355 00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:34,370 thing happens where all of these people at the record labels 356 00:23:34,370 --> 00:23:37,490 would call me up or or meet me for lunch or whatever and be 357 00:23:37,490 --> 00:23:38,370 like, you know what? 358 00:23:38,370 --> 00:23:41,965 You're a 100% right. I wish you'd come in and tell like the 359 00:23:41,965 --> 00:23:44,525 higher ups in my organization what's going on because they 360 00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:45,565 don't understand it. 361 00:23:45,725 --> 00:23:48,845 Georgia Hampton: So let me get this straight. The short term 362 00:23:49,885 --> 00:23:54,445 reaction by these like bigwigs in, I mean, the music industry, 363 00:23:54,445 --> 00:23:56,445 but also it sounds like in Hollywood and all these 364 00:23:56,445 --> 00:23:59,620 entertainment industries, is basically just a financial one 365 00:23:59,620 --> 00:24:04,420 of being like, we can make so much money by suing these 366 00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:07,060 people. Like, we don't care about this model. 367 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:09,620 Aram Sinnreich: Right. And damn the future. Like, what what why 368 00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:11,700 license and make a little when you can sue and make a lot? 369 00:24:11,685 --> 00:24:15,045 There was so much pressure on companies to show massive 370 00:24:15,045 --> 00:24:19,685 quarterly growth that they were strategically compelled almost 371 00:24:19,685 --> 00:24:23,605 by through fiduciary duty in the case of the public companies to 372 00:24:23,605 --> 00:24:28,510 do whatever it took to just boost those numbers. And like, 373 00:24:28,510 --> 00:24:30,510 we'll worry about the future when the future comes. 374 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:32,990 Georgia Hampton: Well, mean, then the future came, especially 375 00:24:32,990 --> 00:24:36,830 with streaming. Because I mean, now that's the standard. 376 00:24:37,150 --> 00:24:39,310 Aram Sinnreich: It took a decade. Right? A decade during 377 00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:41,870 which the the music industry as we were talking about before, 378 00:24:42,225 --> 00:24:47,265 spent its resources demonizing technology rather than embracing 379 00:24:47,265 --> 00:24:50,465 it. But the real change didn't happen until Spotify came to The 380 00:24:50,465 --> 00:24:56,145 US and integrated with Facebook in 2011. So reintegrating that 381 00:24:56,145 --> 00:24:59,080 social function back into the tech, which had been missing 382 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,480 since Napster had been sued and shut down. 383 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,440 Because the the tech that replaced it, which was mostly 384 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,680 Torrenting, was decentralized and didn't have a social 385 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,440 component in it. It was much more utilitarian. 386 00:25:10,855 --> 00:25:14,135 Georgia Hampton: I mean, it again, as an as a outside 387 00:25:14,135 --> 00:25:18,055 observer, it certainly seemed like torrenting was sort of, 388 00:25:18,055 --> 00:25:22,135 yeah, the work of an individual person for individual needs or 389 00:25:22,135 --> 00:25:22,855 desires. 390 00:25:23,095 --> 00:25:27,020 Aram Sinnreich: Well, when it's used for that function, yes, to 391 00:25:27,020 --> 00:25:31,820 a certain extent. There is a social para network surrounding 392 00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:36,300 torrenting that was not imminent to the technology itself, but 393 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:39,420 that people built around it because people like to be 394 00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:39,660 social. 395 00:25:40,035 --> 00:25:41,635 Georgia Hampton: Right. Like sort of what you mentioned 396 00:25:41,635 --> 00:25:47,795 earlier. This self created system that also has this very 397 00:25:47,795 --> 00:25:53,240 communal component. Like, it's a a practice that is, I mean, very 398 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,840 trusting, like one based on trust. 399 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,520 Aram Sinnreich: Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Right? 400 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,760 Mutuality, reciprocity, and trust in so far as you don't 401 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,960 think you're downloading a spoof file or a piece of malware are 402 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,555 integral to it. And and also all of those, like like all human 403 00:26:10,555 --> 00:26:13,675 systems of trust, and interdependence, it it got 404 00:26:13,675 --> 00:26:15,675 exploited by all kinds of bad actors. 405 00:26:15,995 --> 00:26:19,595 Right? So BitTorrent has been used to seed malware, which 406 00:26:19,595 --> 00:26:23,770 create botnets and are used for denial distributed denial of 407 00:26:23,770 --> 00:26:26,570 service attacks, you know, basically since day one. 408 00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:30,970 Georgia Hampton: I mean, it it seems like such a to use, I feel 409 00:26:30,970 --> 00:26:35,210 like, the often used way of codifying things, like a true 410 00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:40,045 neutral tool. And that you can use it for these sort of 411 00:26:40,045 --> 00:26:46,845 beautiful free access egalitarian desires, and then 412 00:26:46,845 --> 00:26:50,990 also can be used kind of quite literally as, like, a almost 413 00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:57,230 like state sanctioned, like, cultural Terrorism? Assault. 414 00:26:57,230 --> 00:26:58,670 Yeah. Terrorism. 415 00:26:58,990 --> 00:27:01,150 Aram Sinnreich: Yeah. Yeah. Both of those things are true. 416 00:27:01,150 --> 00:27:05,925 There's so many reasons why people, you know hold a knife or 417 00:27:05,925 --> 00:27:07,605 drive a car. Right? 418 00:27:07,605 --> 00:27:11,205 It's a piece of technology that has many uses. We haven't even 419 00:27:11,205 --> 00:27:14,245 begun to plumb the depths of the kind of altruistic functions of 420 00:27:14,245 --> 00:27:18,660 it. You know there are all these people and institutions that 421 00:27:18,660 --> 00:27:23,700 began using BitTorrent as a kind of, distributed archival system. 422 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:29,140 So that, you know, if if, Amazon Web Services went down or 423 00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:32,005 somebody's hard drive crashed, all of their valuable content 424 00:27:32,005 --> 00:27:34,565 wouldn't be lost. It would be distributed throughout the cloud 425 00:27:34,565 --> 00:27:35,685 using BitTorrent. 426 00:27:36,085 --> 00:27:39,605 So there's a ton of public domain stuff. Know, the bible is 427 00:27:39,605 --> 00:27:43,605 on BitTorrent and, you know, silent films are on BitTorrent 428 00:27:43,605 --> 00:27:46,780 and, you know, all all this, you know, government websites and 429 00:27:46,780 --> 00:27:50,940 and government archives are on BitTorrent just to keep them 430 00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:55,180 because some altruistically oriented person decided that 431 00:27:55,180 --> 00:27:57,900 that would be a safer place to store it than in one in one 432 00:27:57,900 --> 00:27:58,460 spot. 433 00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:00,700 Georgia Hampton: I mean, and then you kind of also touch on 434 00:28:01,255 --> 00:28:07,735 the now contemporary troubles with streaming and very much 435 00:28:07,735 --> 00:28:10,615 platforms owning and distributing this content, which 436 00:28:10,615 --> 00:28:15,080 is, you know, the movie that you love Netflix right now, they can 437 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,560 decide to just take it down and now it doesn't exist. 438 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,200 Aram Sinnreich: Well, it doesn't exist on Netflix. It's still on 439 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,800 BitTorrent. And, you know, I'm not gonna lie. There are times 440 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,485 where, you know, I lost access to streaming media that I had 441 00:28:28,485 --> 00:28:32,565 paid for access to, and I resorted to BitTorrent to find 442 00:28:32,565 --> 00:28:35,925 it because it wasn't available anywhere else. But morally, I 443 00:28:35,925 --> 00:28:37,765 feel absolutely fine about it. 444 00:28:38,005 --> 00:28:41,330 Georgia Hampton: Why do you feel that way? Like, why why not feel 445 00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:46,450 dissuaded by the technical illegality of of torrenting? 446 00:28:46,450 --> 00:28:48,450 Aram Sinnreich: Well, am dissuaded by the technical 447 00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:52,850 illegality because if somebody identified my IP address with 448 00:28:52,850 --> 00:28:56,745 that Torrent, I could be sued. And I'd probably have to settle 449 00:28:56,745 --> 00:28:59,225 for a couple thousand dollars, which is what usually happens 450 00:28:59,225 --> 00:29:01,465 when the hundreds of thousands of people who have been caught 451 00:29:01,465 --> 00:29:04,985 like that get sued. But also, this is a movie that to your 452 00:29:04,985 --> 00:29:09,470 point had been removed from streaming and download services 453 00:29:09,870 --> 00:29:14,270 perfuncturally without my knowledge, without without 454 00:29:14,270 --> 00:29:18,030 taking the interest of consumers or the interest of the our 455 00:29:18,030 --> 00:29:23,685 cultural legacy to heart. And I felt that whoever is 456 00:29:23,685 --> 00:29:27,205 distributing this film via BitTorrent is doing a mitzvah 457 00:29:27,205 --> 00:29:30,405 because they're keeping the film in the public eye. 458 00:29:30,485 --> 00:29:32,885 Georgia Hampton: I know you've written in the Piracy Crusade 459 00:29:32,885 --> 00:29:36,325 about kind of the extremely high stakes of this. I mean, you 460 00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:40,330 you've written about how it affects, like, democratic 461 00:29:40,330 --> 00:29:44,490 institutions. So how does something like piracy or 462 00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:52,335 torrenting affect something as enormous as literally democracy? 463 00:29:53,135 --> 00:29:56,575 Aram Sinnreich: I think the the most important way to answer it 464 00:29:56,575 --> 00:30:00,895 is to think about what is the collateral damage in these 465 00:30:00,895 --> 00:30:05,710 battles. Sharing information is part of how we exert power, 466 00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:08,430 especially in a democratic society. Right? That's why The 467 00:30:08,430 --> 00:30:14,270 US has a first amendment. So that battle always becomes 468 00:30:14,590 --> 00:30:18,830 especially pitched at moments of technological, ecological 469 00:30:18,830 --> 00:30:19,230 change. 470 00:30:20,355 --> 00:30:25,715 When it's possible for people and institutions that have been 471 00:30:25,715 --> 00:30:31,475 constrained to exert to have newfound powers, and it's 472 00:30:31,475 --> 00:30:35,300 possible for institutions that have been powerful to become 473 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:40,500 even more powerful. If you look at the technologies that have 474 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:44,980 been put into place to limit consumer access to information, 475 00:30:45,555 --> 00:30:48,915 And if you look at the policies that have been put in place to 476 00:30:48,915 --> 00:30:53,315 reify those technologies and support them, they tend to be 477 00:30:53,315 --> 00:30:57,555 very censorious and surveillance. And censorship and 478 00:30:57,555 --> 00:31:01,140 surveillance are anathema to a healthy democracy. In a free 479 00:31:01,140 --> 00:31:04,900 society, torrenting and similar technologies are tolerated 480 00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:09,300 because the cost of policing them is not worth the benefits. 481 00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:12,660 Georgia Hampton: And the benefits are cultural, societal? 482 00:31:13,115 --> 00:31:15,595 Aram Sinnreich: Well, I I guess what I'm saying is the cost to 483 00:31:15,595 --> 00:31:19,115 society of policing them is not worth the benefits to society of 484 00:31:19,115 --> 00:31:21,435 policing them. I'm not pretending that torrenting is 485 00:31:21,435 --> 00:31:26,330 like an unalloyed benefit to the world. Right? It has upsides. It 486 00:31:26,330 --> 00:31:27,130 has downsides. 487 00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:31,050 It helps the industry. It hurts the industry. It's complex. But 488 00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:36,410 the question is, what are we willing to At what price are we 489 00:31:36,410 --> 00:31:40,615 willing to stop this technology and this behavior? And if the 490 00:31:40,615 --> 00:31:43,815 price is surveilling the whole internet and creating these 491 00:31:43,815 --> 00:31:48,135 systems of electronic gates that prevent different people from 492 00:31:48,135 --> 00:31:50,695 spreading and accessing different kinds of information, 493 00:31:51,335 --> 00:31:55,230 right, to me, the cost of putting that in place is so 494 00:31:55,230 --> 00:31:58,350 great that it's not worth whatever benefits accrue from 495 00:31:58,350 --> 00:31:59,310 putting it in place. 496 00:31:59,310 --> 00:32:03,470 Georgia Hampton: But it does feel like piracy is is part of I 497 00:32:03,470 --> 00:32:08,745 mean, is a political conversation. And I'm curious 498 00:32:10,105 --> 00:32:16,905 what your thoughts are for, like, the near future of piracy 499 00:32:16,905 --> 00:32:21,750 and torrenting, especially at a time when a lot of corporate 500 00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:25,750 media is being consolidated and turned into these just like 501 00:32:25,750 --> 00:32:28,870 enormous monopolies. 502 00:32:29,030 --> 00:32:31,990 Aram Sinnreich: I think most politics are small p politics, 503 00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:35,255 not big p politics. And most people who are engaging in 504 00:32:35,255 --> 00:32:40,215 political activities don't conceptualize it as such. Right? 505 00:32:40,295 --> 00:32:44,455 I think most of people torrenting and and most of 506 00:32:44,455 --> 00:32:50,880 people, you know, secure online platforms are not really 507 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,120 thinking about the kind of larger picture so much as 508 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,800 they're just trying to live their lives and be free. And 509 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,135 they want they want to watch what they want to watch. 510 00:33:01,135 --> 00:33:03,695 They want to listen to what they want to listen to. They want to 511 00:33:03,695 --> 00:33:07,775 associate with people though, you know, freely and to 512 00:33:07,775 --> 00:33:10,335 participate and to feel like meaningful participants in the 513 00:33:10,335 --> 00:33:13,710 public conversation. And all of that is political, but it's not 514 00:33:13,710 --> 00:33:16,110 framed politically. And it doesn't need to be framed 515 00:33:16,110 --> 00:33:21,630 politically for people to to feel that reflexively. So I I 516 00:33:21,630 --> 00:33:25,790 think that that we are at a moment as you point out of such 517 00:33:25,485 --> 00:33:31,485 extreme media consolidation and monochromatic overdetermination 518 00:33:31,485 --> 00:33:34,925 of the public sphere that there will be increasing popular 519 00:33:34,925 --> 00:33:39,245 resistance to that, and that decentralized systems like 520 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,040 BitTorrent will play a role in that. 521 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:48,160 I also think that The US is busy squandering every last shred of 522 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,240 goodwill it's ever had around the world. And because of that, 523 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,285 there is going to be an increasing interest, big big p 524 00:33:56,285 --> 00:34:00,205 politically, from foreign governments and corporations, 525 00:34:00,685 --> 00:34:05,965 not to mention general citizenry in how do we get big tech out of 526 00:34:05,965 --> 00:34:08,685 our lives and especially American big tech out of our 527 00:34:08,685 --> 00:34:12,570 lives. And platforms like BitTorrent are gonna be part of 528 00:34:12,570 --> 00:34:13,370 that as well. 529 00:34:13,370 --> 00:34:15,770 Georgia Hampton: I was gonna say it. In a world of big tech, it 530 00:34:15,770 --> 00:34:19,050 feels at least to me like something like BitTorrent is 531 00:34:19,050 --> 00:34:25,365 like little tech or like accessible for everybody tech? 532 00:34:25,525 --> 00:34:27,685 Aram Sinnreich: Very much. At some point soon, I think we're 533 00:34:27,685 --> 00:34:33,685 gonna see a real breakout kind of popularly embraced unlicensed 534 00:34:33,685 --> 00:34:37,520 streaming service that that has BitTorrent on the back end. And 535 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,640 then history will repeat itself. There'll be a moral panic about 536 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,680 it, and there'll be lawsuits, and maybe I'll have to testify 537 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,440 before the supreme court again. And, you know, the cycle 538 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,000 continues. 539 00:34:52,755 --> 00:34:56,515 Georgia Hampton: Well, in that case, as someone who has watched 540 00:34:56,515 --> 00:35:01,155 this cycle already happen, if someone was just going to start 541 00:35:01,155 --> 00:35:05,315 getting into torrenting right now, what advice would you give 542 00:35:05,315 --> 00:35:05,715 them? 543 00:35:05,715 --> 00:35:07,875 Aram Sinnreich: I would say, first of all, you need a good 544 00:35:07,875 --> 00:35:10,810 reason. Streaming, especially music streaming, has now become 545 00:35:10,810 --> 00:35:14,890 like a commoditized kind of add on for other kinds of online 546 00:35:14,890 --> 00:35:19,210 service relationships. So so if you have free streaming, you you 547 00:35:19,210 --> 00:35:22,395 know, unless you want that, like, documentary that you can't 548 00:35:22,395 --> 00:35:25,515 find anywhere else, there's not a really good reason to use 549 00:35:25,675 --> 00:35:28,715 BitTorrent at this point for those kinds of functions. And 550 00:35:28,715 --> 00:35:31,275 you have to balance your tolerance like, what's my 551 00:35:31,275 --> 00:35:34,155 tolerance for advertising? What's my tolerance for 552 00:35:34,155 --> 00:35:37,435 Melania's face versus my tolerance for like malware? 553 00:35:37,830 --> 00:35:42,310 Right now in this current environment, adding BitTorrent 554 00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:46,710 to your life increases your threat surface meaningfully. So 555 00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:49,750 if you're concerned about the integrity of your laptop, your 556 00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:54,285 phone, and if you're keeping sensitive files on it, you might 557 00:35:54,285 --> 00:35:59,565 not want to open that window. And and even if you do, be aware 558 00:35:59,565 --> 00:36:03,325 that you are undertaking a level of risk that you might not be 559 00:36:03,325 --> 00:36:08,260 tolerant for. There is not a safe version of BitTorrent. 560 00:36:08,260 --> 00:36:10,820 There are only safer ways of approaching it. 561 00:36:27,995 --> 00:36:31,275 Georgia Hampton: That is the news we have for you this week. 562 00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:35,250 We'll be back here in the main feed next week on or around 563 00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:41,410 April 9. I want to say a huge, huge thank you to Erem Syndreich 564 00:36:41,410 --> 00:36:45,730 for talking with me about the ins and outs of Torrenting along 565 00:36:45,730 --> 00:36:49,265 with its history within culture. If you wanna learn more about 566 00:36:49,265 --> 00:36:53,105 him and find more of his work, head on over to his website, 567 00:36:53,185 --> 00:36:57,985 synreich.com. And thank you for listening. 568 00:36:58,545 --> 00:37:04,460 What could $4 get you nowadays? Well, at the food co op in my 569 00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:09,980 neighborhood, you could buy exactly one single vegan 570 00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:15,435 chocolate chip cookie, or you could get an entire month of 571 00:37:15,435 --> 00:37:19,915 membership to Never Post's bonus content, and in the process, 572 00:37:20,155 --> 00:37:24,235 help your favorite Internet theorists and critics keep this 573 00:37:24,235 --> 00:37:29,030 beautiful show a rolling. If you know us, you love us, and you 574 00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:34,070 wanna support us, head over to neverpo.st and become a member. 575 00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:39,830 Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, me, Georgia 576 00:37:39,830 --> 00:37:43,335 Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name, last name. 577 00:37:43,415 --> 00:37:45,895 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. 578 00:37:45,975 --> 00:37:50,535 Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer. The show's host is 579 00:37:50,535 --> 00:37:57,920 Mike Rugnetta. I improvised. I never remembered. Now it's your 580 00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,040 turn to be driven. 581 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,240 You're the one who demands to know. Why do I suffer? Why am I 582 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:10,015 ignorant? Cells in a great darkness. Some machine made us. 583 00:38:10,335 --> 00:38:15,615 It is your turn to address it, to go back asking, what am I 584 00:38:15,615 --> 00:38:22,575 for? What am I for? Excerpt from Mother and Child by Louise 585 00:38:22,575 --> 00:38:27,107 Gluck. Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure 586 00:38:27,107 --> 00:38:29,747 and is distributed by Radiotopia.