Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a
podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike
Rugnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 07/28/2026 at
08:34PM eastern, and we have a dangling show for you this week.
In this episode, I chat with security and privacy researchers
Jan Penekamp and Johannes Lomola about the legions of academics
potentially doxxing themselves in the process of publishing
their own research. It is a wild story of unforced errors,
unnecessary technological complexity, and platform
complacency.
But first, we're gonna take a quick break. You'll listen to
some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we return,
we'll talk about a few of the things that have happened since
the last time you heard from us. Never Post, the show you're
listening to has some news and we're gonna put it right at the
top of the show so you don't miss it. First, we have released
oodles of new member content over the last couple weeks.
A team chat about party planning platforms with much part of full
slander and its own event invite. You heard about that on
the mailbag if you listen to it. We've released also a dramatic
reading by myself and Georgia of the legendary Tumblr post, Kurt
Cobain will have his revenge on the straights. And most
recently, we uploaded Paper Report, the first in an ongoing
series where we read and discuss published Internet research. It
is a blast.
Those uploads and more, including a slow post and a WIGO
from back in May, are all waiting for folks in the member
feed right now. Second, Member Drive stream week starts on
August 17 at 11AM eastern at twitch.tv/ the never post and it
will continue through the rest of the week. We have many of
your favorite guests from the extended Never Post universe and
more. Joining us throughout the week, got games and live segment
recordings, giveaways, and hopefully a bunch of new members
so we can keep making this show. A schedule and further details
will go out in two weeks, but as of right now, the week of August
17, clear your schedule, cancel your plans, call in sick to
work, and finally, we have a survey.
But here's the catch, we don't want you to fill it out. No. Not
you. Do not click that link. We would love it if your friends,
family, coworkers, folks who do not currently listen to the show
could fill it out.
We are working with some of the wonderful folks at Radiotopia to
do some audience development research and we wanna hear from
some folks who do not know what Never Post is except maybe in
passing because you won't stop talking to them about it. We
wanna know what they're into. What's their favorite color?
What's their ideal date? There's a link in the show notes.
Please text it to your mom, your favorite barista, and the
captain of your rival bowling league team. Thank you. Okay.
Time for the actual news. Jason, start the tunes.
Keep my feet on the ground, keep my head in the clouds,
electrified by the sound. It comes from the six stories this
week. HBO Max is launching shorts. Max shorts will
apparently consist of clipped segments of longer form
entertainment available on the streamer as well as trailers and
behind the scenes content according to a press release,
which also reads quote, the clips for this feature are
powered by an AI tool built in house which helps human editors
select and verticalize content by using machine learning
algorithms that utilize scene level metadata to comb through
thousands of hours of titles and suggest the most compelling high
impact scenes for discovery, end quote. If there's one thing I
love my content to be, it is verticalized.
This comes on the heels of similar products announced at
other streamers like Netflix, ESPN, Paramount Plus, and Disney
Plus, each of whom platforms like Instagram and TikTok as
direct competitors. A media consultant told Business Insider
in February that quote, premium streaming is plowing into this
space because of a need to own more lean back moments in a
viewer's day, end quote. This in my opinion represents a
fundamental misunderstanding of why audiences turn to short form
vertical video feeds, but maybe I'm wrong and all of you do want
to watch a hundred one minute clips of CBS's CSI Miami on
Paramount plus. France will be the first European country to
ban social media for teenagers. Their parliament recently
approved a law which will limit access to people under the age
of 15 starting at January 2027.
All social media users in the country will have to verify
their age when the law goes into effect. A process which we now
know from both Australia and The United Kingdom works perfectly
and without any hiccups or easy circumvention. A similar law has
been proposed though not passed in Vietnam. As currently
written, the draft law would apply to those under the age of
16 who would only be able to log on under parental supervision.
Vietnam would also require platforms to identify younger
users and moderate the content served accordingly.
Speaker 2: Let's dive into today's word. A French phrase
originating from the expression sacred god used to express
surprise or disbelief. Let's say it all together.
Mike Rugnetta: Your taxes are paying for Internet no one is
using in Alaska, if you're American at least. ProPublica
reports that thousands of abandoned homes on the nearly
empty Alaskan Adoc Island have an active obsolete Internet
connection which the United States government subsidizes at
the cost of $300,000 a year. Subsidies continue even after
service providers are sent to prison for tax evasion or end up
in court for fraud. What few residents remain on the island,
which is 1,200 miles off the coast of Anchorage, use Starlink
for internet access as it is both cheaper and more reliable.
Amongst Starlink's customers, the local internet utility
company.
Doom is our Moby Dick, says the Washington Post, which this
month named it one of the 25 most influential pieces of
American culture. Placed between thriller and the matrix on the
list, Wapo writes, Doom was foundational in digital
entertainment. A three d world viewed in first person, self
published with no gatekeepers and no retail store as it gave
rise to user generated content years before anyone had a name
for it. Programmer John Carmack handed the audience the tools to
build their own corners of hell, end quote. This comes not long
after Doom's soundtrack was inducted into the national
recording registry.
The shooter was also implicated in a trove of documents dumped
by the White House this month. Documents which purport to
reveal the dire state of the country's election security.
Amongst the examples of how easy it is to rig an election, a
tweet from Defcon twenty nineteen showing the screen of a
vote tabulating computer running doom. BitChat, the Bluetooth
based messaging app developed by former Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey
has been targeted by the Indian government for its role in the
ongoing Jantar Mantar student protests. The Indian Cybercrime
Coordination Center has demanded Microsoft remove the open source
publicly licensed software from GitHub as it allows protesters
to circumvent local internet blackouts implemented by the
government.
Quote, the application enables anonymous communication without
mandatory user registration, phone number verification, or
centralized logging of communications. The I c four
wrote, the technical architecture of the application
significantly impedes lawful interception, interception,
attribution, and investigation by law enforcement agencies, end
quote. The protests began alongside the CJP or cockroach
janta party, a satirical student led group formed online in
response to comments made by an Indian judge describing the
unemployed social media users and activists as quote,
parasites of society. There are youngsters like cockroaches, he
continued. Student groups have recently demanded transparency
and legal consequences around a number of national education
controversies, including the mismanagement of India's
national examinations.
The CJP began online, but its popularity quickly grew and
leaked into meatspace. Its organizers now regularly
communicate with the government and police. India's minister of
education Darmindra Pradhan recently resigned following
CJP's demands. To be eligible for membership, the CJP says one
must be unemployed by force, by choice, or by principle, lazy
referring only to physical activity, chronically online at
least eleven hours daily including bathroom breaks, and
have the ability to rant professionally. Content must be
sharp, honest, and point at something that matters.
You will find your destiny among the world's greatest warriors.
The few are the proud. And finally, social security numbers
in my physics research? It's more likely than you think. This
May at the forty seventh I triple e symposium on security
and privacy, five researchers revealed that a staggering
percentage of papers uploaded to the open access research archive
arxiv.org include what they call hidden secrets.
Some of these secrets may be mundane, things like comments,
template information, to do lists, and so on, but they also
found social security numbers, credit card info, home and work
addresses, gossip, and more. Archive is a massively popular
platform for serving academic preprints, papers which have not
yet been peer reviewed, and also industry white papers by
companies like Microsoft, Nvidia, Meta, and OpenAI. For
this paper, researchers focused on academic preprints
specifically and found a particular vulnerability in
LaTeX, a type setting system used to render among other
things math equations. 93% of submissions to archive use LaTeX
for which you are also required to upload the source files.
These source files often contain comments and other metadata that
authors never intended to publish.
Now there are programmatic methods to sanitize the files,
including methods recommended by archive itself, but many don't
work well or well enough. And once your paper is uploaded,
it's not so easy to take it down. We're gonna take a quick
break, and then I'm gonna talk to security researchers Jan
Penekamp and Johannes Lomola about the 2,700,000 research
papers that they analyzed, the thousands of hidden secrets that
they found amongst them, and why it's not so easy to get those
hidden secrets off of the archive once they're there.
Joining me are Jan Penekamp and Johannes Lomola. Jan Penekamp is
a postdoctoral researcher in computer science at the chair of
communication and distributed systems at RWTH Aachen
University.
Since 2023, he's been the head of Comsys' security and privacy
group, which analyzes and evaluates the security of
communication systems across the Internet of Things, healthcare,
and more. Jan, thank you for joining us.
Jan Pennekamp: Thanks for having me.
Mike Rugnetta: Johannes Lohmoller is a researcher at the
chair of communication and distributed systems at RWTH
Aachen University. He's a member of Comsys' security and privacy
group, where he researches privacy preserving methods,
particularly in the domain of health care. Johannes, thanks
for being here.
ohannes Lohmoller: Thanks for inviting me.
Mike Rugnetta: So, the two of you, along with three other
coauthors, submitted a paper in April that you then presented at
the twenty twenty six IEEE symposium on security and
privacy, in May. The paper is titled Hidden Secrets in the
Discovering, Analyzing, and Preventing Unintentional
Information Disclosure in Source Files of Scientific Preprints.
The paper details some, really interesting and slightly
shocking, security lapses, I guess you could say, in the
world of scientific publishing, and we're gonna get into, some
of the dramatic details in a moment. But I wanna start at
sort of first principles, if you don't mind. So for our audience
who might not be entirely familiar, could you just explain
what archive is?
And this is spelled a r x I v.
Jan Pennekamp: So archive is basically a way to circumvent
the traditional publishing processes. So in traditional
publishing, you have peer reviews and copy editing and so
forth and so forth. And this is often a costly time consuming
process while in contrast, archive which is a preprint
repository basically is something where you can submit
papers before peer review. So it also requires you to upload your
latest sources which are then translated in PDFs. Have and not
only do they require the latest sources for during submission,
but they also make them publicly accessible for each and
everybody basically to download without any registration,
without any checking whatsoever.
Yeah. So everybody can not only check out the PDF, but also the
search files of submitted papers.
Mike Rugnetta: And LaTeX is a big part of your findings in
this paper. Johannes, can you tell us a little bit about what
LaTeX is?
ohannes Lohmoller: It's basically the typesetting system
most of academia actually uses. So you don't just go to Word or
just to write down your paper manuscript, but you typeset it
in LaTeX, which enables, like, more fancy math. You can
integrate other sources as PDFs, so you get vector graphics and
all that kind of stuff. It's typically used for publishing
those papers.
Mike Rugnetta: And so what you found is not just that a
majority of papers, but most papers that had submitted
preprints to archive had unintentionally included what
you call secret information in various portions of the the
document?
ohannes Lohmoller: I would prefer calling it hidden
information in the first place, not necessarily secret because
how we defined is is that it's information that's somehow
contained in those source files that didn't end up in the
produced PDF.
Mike Rugnetta: What constitutes hidden information? What sorts
of things are you finding that someone should not want publicly
available?
ohannes Lohmoller: I think what I, for instance, wouldn't like
to see on the Internet on my papers is I mean, we often do
these to do items and things that we still have to address in
the papers and comments whether this is actually true or this
and that is missing a citation or this would need further
evaluation and analysis, conversations between authors in
the documents. I think for me, it feels like it's personal
information.
Mike Rugnetta: Sure.
ohannes Lohmoller: And then on the other end, we also found,
like, clear personal information, like names of study
participants that are not among the authors, but, well, like, of
the research. We also found credentials in their credit card
numbers, which was quite a surprise Wow. And things like
that.
Jan Pennekamp: And, obviously, this does not affect all of the
2,700,000 papers that we analyzed. But still, if you also
like 100 papers on there and you make, like, one mean remark
about a colleague or, I don't know, basically reveal, for
example, that you conduct scientific misconduct, those
kind of things. This can also be very damaging to your career,
reputation, and so forth. So, you know, it's just sufficient
to have this one bit of information there. Yeah.
Or alternatively, if you think about cyberstalking. Right? If
you leave leave your address in one of the papers, it doesn't
matter that it's that you have multiple papers on this website,
for example. Yeah. We also found sort of some remarks on the
Internet that indicate that also, like, these large LLM
providers may be scraping the source files files this way.
So they're not constraining themselves to the PDFs, but
actually also in the training data, those all this information
ends up there. And and and part of doing that, also the hidden
information that Johannes was just talking about is also
basically revealed or used by these companies.
Mike Rugnetta: So there is there is evidence that say, a bot
which is scouring the Internet for information related to an
LLM, like, say, potentially an OpenAI or an Anthropic is
gathering some of this hidden information. It whether or not
it makes its way into a model that then people have access to,
big question mark, but they've at least there's evidence that
they've accessed it.
Jan Pennekamp: Yes. To the best of our understanding. Yes.
Interesting.
Mike Rugnetta: I mean, does that mean that archive has to change
the way that it works?
Jan Pennekamp: I guess it's it's a matter of perspective again.
Right? If you consider disinformation to not be that
bad Sure. Then archive doesn't have to change anything because,
I mean, it's it's just conversational content on there.
Right?
We also reached out to them and basically they told us, like,
they do not consider this sort of information that we
discovered to be sensitive so that they need to act upon it.
So, basically, as they refrain from doing something, they told
us, alright. The authors are being made aware that this
information ends up there and we have clear reasons why we want
to include this information in the dataset or the repository,
basically. It's like if you go to Google and you don't like how
they display the search results,
Mike Rugnetta: well Sure.
Jan Pennekamp: Tough luck. You don't have to use the service,
but in the end, it's how they want to operate. Right?
Mike Rugnetta: And do they feel this way even knowing that, say
like, I'm looking at the list of some of the the things that you
found, things like Slack tokens, API keys, Facebook OAuths, and
they're like, yeah. That's fine. Like, if someone wanted to put
that up there, sure.
Jan Pennekamp: I mean, for those things, you can still revocate
the credentials in
ohannes Lohmoller: a way.
Mike Rugnetta: True. Yeah.
Jan Pennekamp: But, yeah, they they think it's the educator's
author's responsibility. Yeah. Mo multiple people, after
presenting the work or having it published multiple also reached
out to us and they asked like, why does archive even surface
content like these sources publicly? Like, they can just,
you know, keep them internally, and not share them. So this is
like the most common response that we're getting, I would say.
Mike Rugnetta: They don't have to serve the metadata that
reveals hold on. I'm looking at it here. Almost 4,000 United
States Social Security numbers.
ohannes Lohmoller: I mean, they argue it's for reproducibility,
and I think they had some point several years ago where authors
actually could upload ancillary data right into the submission.
So that's an actually intended way of, like, providing further
context or data and things like that next to the submission.
Uh-huh. But I think there are other large research data
repositories nowadays, like, say, Nodo, for instance, that
kind of fulfill the service. So I don't think it's, like,
necessary anymore to provide Lartic sources.
Mike Rugnetta: You also mentioned that there is a way
that this is a concern for the peer review process. Can you
just briefly describe why that might be?
Jan Pennekamp: In several disciplines, you do double blind
review, which basically means that the reviewer does not know
the author and the author does not know the reviewer. Now the
reviewer does not get disclosed because you submit sources, but
the author may get dis disclosed this way because you may not
only have anonymous authors in there but other things as well.
Similarly, if later on publishers collect the Lattice
sources, they basically have also the same amount of access
to the hidden information. Right? So while it is not
publicly accessible, it certainly is for those
publishing companies where you could say, right.
I'm trusting them, but, you know, security cyber incidents
happen across the board and depending on where where and how
much they store, yeah, malicious actors could still get access to
that after the fact. So it's it's also still crucial to
consider that angle in a way.
Mike Rugnetta: Right? Got it. And how is it that those things
that aren't needed for the final rendering end up being left in?
Is this just people don't know that they should remove them? Is
this a problem with the the software itself when you submit
the paper?
Jan Pennekamp: I think it's a little mix of all all things you
couldn't can think of. Yeah. So probably people are lazy. They
don't really care. Sometimes they don't even know that the
files end up being publicly accessible and they just upload
that.
Then archive actually lets you nowadays select whether files
are required or not, but only on on root level basically. So they
know about the issue. They sort of try to address it but I'm I'm
not sure how many people would actually select or deselect
stuff there.
Mike Rugnetta: Sure.
Jan Pennekamp: Yeah. And then for like if you have a big
project with hundreds of files, you can also just get lost and
not noticing that maybe you have 102 files in there. So it's
sometimes also just a matter of scale why why things are popping
up there.
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. It's such a particularly and I think
uniquely specific example of all the ways that we leave data
trails behind us when we use the Internet and various platforms
on the Internet. And like, you know, not just the Internet,
guess, also just work you do with computers, you know, you
you end up leaving little bits of yourself and identifying
pieces of information about your life all around. And I think
like, there's all of these scenarios where we conceive of
information as private, or we think of files as being clean,
or not vectors for people learning sensitive things about
us. For maybe a bunch of, like, arbitrary reasons, we think that
things are safe, or maybe for no reason.
We just have haven't had a reason to consider otherwise.
But actually, like, those things are really public.
Jan Pennekamp: Yeah. I believe it's like if you think about
electric vehicles and kind of what information they record and
sometimes depending on which third party apps you're using,
maybe they also reveal stuff on the Internet. I mean, there are
these these apps for fitness tracking, right, where basically
your history is publicly available. So I think, you know,
it it comes up every year and now. And so this was basically
one of the occurrences where we as academia, people from
academia basically spot, something sensitive in a way.
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. You talk about some of the ways that
exist for dealing with this issue because this isn't a new
problem. And in fact, archive basically recommends the use of
a a Google tool, I think it is, to sanitize the things that are
submitted. Could you talk a little bit about that tool and
others like it and why they're they aren't sufficient for
solving this problem?
Jan Pennekamp: So Lattice is a very powerful language. So you
have quite some diverse ways of inserting comments in there or
basically adding stuff that you do not need, in the final PDF.
And basically what we did is survey how prior solutions
basically work and what they did and most of them use regular
expressions to detect a comment and then act upon that. I would
say like the Google tool is actually ArchiveLatigleena that
is actually a quite mature tool but if you use some ways that
are not supported by this tool then, well, you're all of luck
and this information basically remains in there. And we argue
that it's not sufficient to rely on any of those.
And what's what strike us as interesting, none of them
actually consider this metadata level, even though, you know,
it's quite well known that metadata actually leaks or can
leak sensitive information.
ohannes Lohmoller: Now we were sitting on these 2,700,000
submissions and had this archive Latest Kiena tool floating
around. So we just, like, sew it on all of those submissions and
kind of figured out what happens. And then we found out
that, like, I don't know, nine above 90% have modified sources
after applying the tool. So we're not quite sure whether the
tool is more major nowadays or whether it was never applied to
the sources, But we kind of had an empirical way of figuring
out, like, how much additional content those tools would I
could remove from the submission.
Jan Pennekamp: It would not probably remove all the data
that we discovered, but it would already remove quite a lot by
margin.
Mike Rugnetta: And did you you developed your own tool in order
to sanitize submissions. Is that true?
Jan Pennekamp: Yes. So we were fortunate enough that one of our
co authors, a student that we supervised, that he came across
a different way of basically working with these LATHE files.
So instead of using regular expressions, he discovered
TreeSitter which basically is an abstract grammar that sort of
better reads or processes the LATH files. We're not saying
that our tool is perfect in any way. It's just, let's say, the
next step forward and showing, like, where there's potential
and how to to make the best out of an unfortunate situation, I
would say.
Yeah. Also, sort of looking in the future to enable many many
different authors and researchers, not only in
computer science, but basically, yeah, across all the disciplines
to apply that. And that's also why we sort of focused on really
reliability. So we wanted to make sure if you apply our tool
that then the information gets reliably removed and that it can
be sure that sort of the content is retained as it was so that
we're not over removing stuff. So, basically, altering the PDF
because we found, several cases where the Google tool over
removes content.
So in a way, you use your tool and then your the content that
you have in the paper is not identical anymore. And
unfortunately, you may not notice unless you check really
character basically in your paper. Now this is something
that can be quite damaging. Right? If you have a proof on
there and then for some reason there are like a couple of
characters missing in there or a mass formula and you you don't
know why that that doesn't work.
It doesn't make sense. It's just not equal anymore. So, you know,
it it also has an impact on sort of the scientific discourse and
it's, yeah, in general.
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Do you think the archive is gonna
switch their recommendation from the Google tool to yours?
Jan Pennekamp: I mean, we're not Google, so I I mean, I I don't
know. Let's see. If it gains sufficient traction, maybe.
Mike Rugnetta: So I'm curious what what do you think should
happen next and what in theory actually happens next? You
mentioned that, you know, archive has been pretty clear
that, like, they they think this is the system working, except in
extenuating circumstances where the information is very personal
or, you know, very important that it not be made publicly. So
it sounds like, you know, them changing the way that their
service works is remote. Is there now, like, an education
campaign that has to be undertaken in order to let
authors know that when they're submitting things, this is
something that they have to be thinking about?
Jan Pennekamp: Yes. Certainly. So I think, like, policy wise or
institutional guidelines on on how to work with archive is
something that's essential. So nobody ever, like, really told
me, like, how to work with archive. Right?
So at some point, it just came up and you're like, alright. I'm
just submitting my, first paper to archive. What can go wrong?
Right? But now that we know, like, a lot of things can go
wrong and, actually, you can't undo all of the things that can
go wrong.
So I I could imagine that funding agencies who basically
mandate that papers are getting open access publishing also have
sort of guidelines on on what they want to see up on archive
and whatnot. Yeah. And similarly, the institutions
themselves maybe want to be sure that authors do not basically
reveal damaging information. Right? They also have a
reputational desire to basically improve that situation.
If if they were were to come up with that, I mean, most of the
major universities have some kind of library service that
handle all those things. So I think, certainly, the the staff
and the way to implement those is there. It just hasn't been
done yet. Right? So getting that on track, I think this is very
crucial.
And it is also something that would not only help, like,
educated computer science or computer security researchers,
but, basically, help people across all the disciplines
because then you have guidelines, something to
follow-up on. And even if it just says, you know, be careful.
You like, use caution, maybe reach out to an expert, somebody
who supports you on basically submitting that, that would be
something to to really go a long way with this.
ohannes Lohmoller: I think we should make this a shared
responsibility between authors and publishers because even if
we get the tooling and the awareness right, at least the
time issues, so deadline, pressure, and so remains. And
since we have seen at least some of those aspects could be easy
easily fixable on archive sites, I wouldn't just, like, redeem or
exempt the authors from their responsibility, but something
could also be done at the publisher's side.
Jan Pennekamp: In the end, it's a community effort to basically
improve everything.
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Jan, Johannes, thank you so much for
joining us. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your
important and busy schedules to chat with me.
ohannes Lohmoller: Thanks for having us.
Jan Pennekamp: It was a pleasure being here.
Mike Rugnetta: What is the best place for folks to go to be able
to keep tabs on what you're up to?
Jan Pennekamp: This paper is already up on archive naturally,
including sources. K. So you can also look around what we did in
there.
Mike Rugnetta: Including including, I assume, your credit
card number and home address.
Jan Pennekamp: Sure. You you can take a look if you find it and
then let me know. I I will look at my bank statement to see. And
we do also host a website, which is archive.com. It's
.rwth-ahn.de, quite a long name, which basically gives you an
executive summary and so any updates that probably would
follow after this work, we would also host there.
So this really gives you a high level overview about the key
findings that we have.
Mike Rugnetta: Thanks again to Jan and Johannes. If you would
like to read their paper or see more work from them or their
department, you can check the links in the show notes. That is
the news we have for you this week. We are gonna be back here
in the main feed on or around Thursday, August 6. In a couple
short weeks, the Never Post Member Drive stream week will
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and maybe most importantly, it get better and weirder and more
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Do you wanna be one of those weird wonderful people and help
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more.
Neverpo.st, but you knew that already. Never Post's producers
are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and The Mysterious.
Doctor first name, last name. Our senior producer is Hans
Buto. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer, and the show's
host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta.
If a shaft of light is broken into a thousand pieces and each
piece into a thousand more, might not a stranger mistake any
of the fragments for the original light? Am I not such a
stranger? And if so, how can I speak of light or its origins?
What I have taken for light may be something entirely different.
Blood or mire or darkness itself.
Excerpt of the interior prisoner, translation of an
unsigned manuscript written at Salamanca around nineteen o two
by Jeffrey O'Brien. Never Post is a production of Charts and
Leisure and it's distributed by Radiotopia.