1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Mike Rugnetta: Hey, folks. A little news right up front here 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,720 before we get to the mail. We are in the midst of our member 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,360 drive, and holy moly, y'all are crushing it. We still have a 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,400 while to go to hit our goals, which we're gonna mention soon 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,815 during our member drive stream week. Please imagine that 6 00:00:19,815 --> 00:00:24,695 emblazoned on a big LED screen, perhaps surrounded by igniting 7 00:00:24,695 --> 00:00:27,815 pyrotechnics as though you are at a monster truck rally. 8 00:00:27,815 --> 00:00:30,455 Maybe Jason can pitch me down here and put a MIDI guitar solo 9 00:00:30,455 --> 00:00:30,615 in. 10 00:00:31,350 --> 00:00:35,430 Mike Rugnetta: Member drive stream week. That's right, 11 00:00:35,430 --> 00:00:39,190 folks. Starting at 10AM eastern on Monday, August 18 and going 12 00:00:39,190 --> 00:00:42,470 until Friday evening, August twenty second, the Neverpost 13 00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:45,655 team will be streaming. Not the entire 14 00:00:45,655 --> 00:00:47,175 Mike Rugnetta: time because we have families and need to eat 15 00:00:47,175 --> 00:00:48,615 food and stuff, but for a lot of that time 16 00:00:48,855 --> 00:00:52,135 Mike Rugnetta: Streaming. Do you wanna know how we write music 17 00:00:52,135 --> 00:00:55,015 for the show? Do you wanna see inside Georgia's closet in a 18 00:00:55,015 --> 00:00:57,360 Mike Rugnetta: not at all creepy way, but with, like, permission? 19 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,440 Mike Rugnetta: Do you wanna find out what the best quote in the 20 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:05,520 world is? Do you want to see Jason play NBA Jam? He's so 21 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:06,160 funny. 22 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:13,275 Mike Rugnetta: Then join us for Member Drive Stream Week. Full 23 00:01:13,275 --> 00:01:16,395 schedule to follow. Admission is free, but you can get a bundle. 24 00:01:16,395 --> 00:01:19,835 Follow us on Twitch at twitch.tv/theneverpost. 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,920 Mike Rugnetta: Okay. I'm not gonna lie. When I sat down to 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,920 make this topper for the mailbag, I did not expect it to 27 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,600 go in the direction of fake monster truck rally, but here we 28 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,640 are. Member drive stream week, the week of August 18. 29 00:01:34,755 --> 00:01:37,395 Twitch.tv/theneverpost. 30 00:01:37,395 --> 00:01:40,435 Go follow us now so you get notifications when we go live. 31 00:01:40,755 --> 00:01:50,020 See you there. Friends, hello, and welcome to the Never Post 32 00:01:50,020 --> 00:01:54,580 Mailbag episode four, Dog Days twenty twenty five, in which we 33 00:01:54,580 --> 00:01:58,020 respond to listener emails, comments, voicemail, and voice 34 00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:04,340 messages about our segments. We love hearing from you. Well, 35 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:04,820 most of you. 36 00:02:06,465 --> 00:02:08,465 Hans Buetow: You know who you are. 37 00:02:08,465 --> 00:02:09,665 Mike Rugnetta: You know who you are. 38 00:02:09,745 --> 00:02:12,545 Mike Rugnetta: Is it Mom. Please 39 00:02:13,745 --> 00:02:15,585 Mike Rugnetta: just kidding, mom. Love you. You send an email 40 00:02:15,585 --> 00:02:18,260 whenever you want. Do get in touch. Tell us your thoughts on 41 00:02:18,260 --> 00:02:18,980 our segments. 42 00:02:19,060 --> 00:02:21,380 All the ways you can get a hold of us are in the show notes. 43 00:02:21,380 --> 00:02:24,420 Drop us a line and maybe Hans will respond with some of the 44 00:02:24,420 --> 00:02:27,540 things he ate most recently at the state fair. Anything 45 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:29,460 anything sticking out to you as a teaser? 46 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:32,020 Hans Buetow: Well, we haven't we haven't gone yet. I mean, it's 47 00:02:32,100 --> 00:02:35,325 we're gonna wait. It starts twentieth. 48 00:02:35,325 --> 00:02:35,485 Jason Oberholtzer: So 49 00:02:35,565 --> 00:02:37,565 Mike Rugnetta: Oh, really? Oh, I thought it already started. 50 00:02:37,565 --> 00:02:40,045 Hans Buetow: No. Twelve days Mike, come on. It's the twelve 51 00:02:40,045 --> 00:02:41,565 days before Labor Day. 52 00:02:41,725 --> 00:02:44,205 Mike Rugnetta: Every Like, we all know that. We We do so. 53 00:02:44,285 --> 00:02:47,640 Mike Rugnetta: Know. Wait. How far in advance of the state fair 54 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:49,080 do they publish the menu? 55 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,440 Mike Rugnetta: Quite a while. It's a it's a big old deal. 56 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,200 That's hilar okay. I had no clue. Yeah. 57 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,680 Mike Rugnetta: Alright. Yep. I'm your host Mike Rugnetta. Joining 58 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,605 me today paired with who I assume their go to characters in 59 00:03:01,605 --> 00:03:08,085 Mario Kart world are are Never Post producer Georgia Hampton. 60 00:03:09,765 --> 00:03:10,965 I'm calling Dry Bones. 61 00:03:10,965 --> 00:03:11,845 I'm gonna say Dry Bones. 62 00:03:11,845 --> 00:03:14,245 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. Wow. 63 00:03:14,610 --> 00:03:15,570 Jason Oberholtzer: Got it in one? 64 00:03:15,570 --> 00:03:18,370 Georgia Hampton: Yes. Yes. I love tripods. Love 65 00:03:18,690 --> 00:03:21,170 Mike Rugnetta: and I love my little skeletal boy. 66 00:03:21,890 --> 00:03:24,690 Mike Rugnetta: I'm going entirely on vibe here, not like, 67 00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:25,330 Yeah. You know, 68 00:03:26,735 --> 00:03:28,975 Georgia Hampton: This is more just like who each of us are as 69 00:03:28,975 --> 00:03:29,535 people. 70 00:03:29,535 --> 00:03:29,935 Mike Rugnetta: What a 71 00:03:30,015 --> 00:03:31,935 Mike Rugnetta: well, okay. We'll see how Jason responds to this 72 00:03:31,935 --> 00:03:36,495 next one. Never post executive producer, Jason Oberholzer, 73 00:03:37,295 --> 00:03:38,015 Waluigi. 74 00:03:40,610 --> 00:03:41,650 Georgia Hampton: So I'm right. 75 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:46,130 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. It's either Bowser or one of the was. 76 00:03:46,210 --> 00:03:50,290 Mike Rugnetta: My brother-in-law is a big Bowser devotee, and I'm 77 00:03:50,290 --> 00:03:53,090 gonna say he's probably right. Bowser is actually probably the 78 00:03:53,090 --> 00:03:54,130 correct choice. 79 00:03:54,285 --> 00:03:55,965 Jason Oberholtzer: It is. But, you know, I'll take any of the 80 00:03:55,965 --> 00:03:58,365 bad boys. I like to be a bad boy when I'm on the track. 81 00:03:59,245 --> 00:04:01,405 Mike Rugnetta: And finally, never post senior producer Hans 82 00:04:01,405 --> 00:04:03,485 Buto, lack it too. 83 00:04:03,485 --> 00:04:07,725 Hans Buetow: I do love to drop a spiny shell. Love it. You're not 84 00:04:07,725 --> 00:04:07,965 wrong. 85 00:04:08,590 --> 00:04:09,950 Georgia Hampton: Wait, Mike. Who are you then? 86 00:04:09,950 --> 00:04:11,950 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. My go to is Shy Guy. 87 00:04:11,950 --> 00:04:12,990 Georgia Hampton: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. 88 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:13,310 Mike Rugnetta: I'm a 89 00:04:13,310 --> 00:04:15,310 Mike Rugnetta: little upset. Seems like you can no longer 90 00:04:15,310 --> 00:04:19,150 pick the color of your Shy Guy, which is sad to me. Sorry, bud. 91 00:04:19,150 --> 00:04:21,470 You know what's gonna help me take my mind off of this? 92 00:04:21,470 --> 00:04:22,350 Bagging some mail. 93 00:04:23,125 --> 00:04:23,765 Okay. 94 00:04:25,445 --> 00:04:28,325 Hans Buetow: Okay. Kick us off. We wanna set the mood. We wanna 95 00:04:28,325 --> 00:04:32,485 settle us into kind of the vibe of the day. And let's see let's 96 00:04:32,485 --> 00:04:35,845 see if we can do this with Michael Bukino, who sent us this 97 00:04:35,845 --> 00:04:39,830 poem saying that has been rattling around in their head on 98 00:04:39,830 --> 00:04:41,350 long bike rides around. 99 00:04:41,590 --> 00:04:43,590 Well, I'll let you guess where. 100 00:04:44,150 --> 00:04:46,790 Clip: The bugs in my beard I bring back from my bike ride are 101 00:04:46,790 --> 00:04:49,785 just souvenirs from failed attempt flybys, buzzing and 102 00:04:49,785 --> 00:04:52,425 bumping and flipping and flapping, jittering, jumping, 103 00:04:52,425 --> 00:04:56,185 slithering, slapping. One proboscis, two antennae, 6,000 104 00:04:56,185 --> 00:04:59,865 or so limbs, shiny shells, wondrous wings, and a slimy 105 00:04:59,865 --> 00:05:03,305 trail of mucin. Each camouflage colorful, cute, creepy crawly 106 00:05:03,305 --> 00:05:06,020 hitching a lift on the fuzzy face trolley can look like a lot 107 00:05:06,020 --> 00:05:08,900 at the end of my hall, but these little critters don't bug me at 108 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:09,380 all. 109 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:12,820 Mike Rugnetta: Bug beard. Bug beard. 110 00:05:12,820 --> 00:05:16,820 Mike Rugnetta: Bug beard. Bug beard. Michael. So good. Is that 111 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:18,580 Jason Oberholtzer: fuzzy face trolley? What's that? 112 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:21,355 Mike Rugnetta: Into it. Good mood set. 113 00:05:21,355 --> 00:05:23,435 Hans Buetow: That's I feel like we're ready to go. 114 00:05:23,435 --> 00:05:25,115 Mike Rugnetta: Okay. Let's bring it right down. 115 00:05:26,715 --> 00:05:27,995 Georgia Hampton: I don't get too excited. 116 00:05:30,155 --> 00:05:33,570 Mike Rugnetta: So we got a few comments about AI Mike, who 117 00:05:33,570 --> 00:05:36,610 everybody will remember took over for me while I was on 118 00:05:36,610 --> 00:05:42,290 vacation. One thing regarding AI Mike that we, I guess, did not 119 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:47,935 make clear enough is that Jason wrote the words. Yes. 120 00:05:47,935 --> 00:05:49,695 Jason Oberholtzer: I am at fault. I did it. 121 00:05:49,695 --> 00:05:52,175 Mike Rugnetta: There were some folks who were concerned that 122 00:05:52,175 --> 00:05:56,415 maybe we had used an LLM. We didn't. Jason wrote it. It was a 123 00:05:56,415 --> 00:05:57,215 script. Mhmm. 124 00:05:57,215 --> 00:06:00,735 I also like I don't know how much LLM output you've seen, but 125 00:06:00,735 --> 00:06:04,190 I encounter a fair amount of it online now. And I don't think I 126 00:06:04,190 --> 00:06:07,230 think Jason's far funnier than a than a than a computer. 127 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:11,310 Jason Oberholtzer: I love to clear a low bar. The 128 00:06:14,510 --> 00:06:18,575 Mike Rugnetta: voice of AI Mike was AI generated based on, I 129 00:06:18,575 --> 00:06:22,415 assume, me reading the news. Hans, is that true? 130 00:06:23,135 --> 00:06:26,735 Hans Buetow: You know what? It's actually a model made of you 131 00:06:26,735 --> 00:06:32,510 reading copy for the first pilot segment that we ever did that no 132 00:06:32,510 --> 00:06:33,950 one but us has ever heard. 133 00:06:34,030 --> 00:06:35,390 Jason Oberholtzer: Interesting. Oh, interesting. 134 00:06:35,390 --> 00:06:38,190 Hans Buetow: Yeah. I I mess with it a lot. 135 00:06:38,430 --> 00:06:41,150 Mike Rugnetta: Why did you why that as raw material? 136 00:06:41,150 --> 00:06:44,110 Hans Buetow: That's just the one that I made, and I feel like it 137 00:06:43,665 --> 00:06:47,025 doesn't quite sound like you in a way that I really, really 138 00:06:47,025 --> 00:06:49,985 love. Like, it kinda it sounds enough like you that it's 139 00:06:49,985 --> 00:06:53,905 recognizable, but I really like pushing it and making it sound 140 00:06:53,905 --> 00:06:56,705 weird. One of the things I enjoyed about this instance of 141 00:06:56,705 --> 00:07:00,020 using it use Eleven Labs to do it, and they are they have an 142 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:03,940 they're an alpha for a brand new version of it, which allows you 143 00:07:03,940 --> 00:07:08,580 to add in tags for mood. And so I got really into using the 144 00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:14,025 wrong mood tag for your for what you were supposed to be 145 00:07:14,025 --> 00:07:16,745 experiencing in that moment and just seeing what it would do. 146 00:07:16,745 --> 00:07:19,785 And I turned the variability, like, all the way up and, like, 147 00:07:19,785 --> 00:07:23,225 the comic express or, like, I don't remember all the the the 148 00:07:23,225 --> 00:07:25,130 different things, but, like, I really ratchet it. 149 00:07:25,130 --> 00:07:27,770 And I really believe in that. Like, I really believe in having 150 00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:35,370 Mike AI Mike announce itself Yeah. As AI, and that it was 151 00:07:35,370 --> 00:07:38,865 done with permission. You gave us permission to make an AI 152 00:07:38,865 --> 00:07:42,625 model of you. And then just like messing with it because it's I 153 00:07:42,625 --> 00:07:44,465 think way more funny that way. 154 00:07:44,625 --> 00:07:47,185 Mike Rugnetta: Jay Springit on Blue Sky asked, could you speak 155 00:07:47,185 --> 00:07:50,020 or reflect a little bit on how it felt to listen to and 156 00:07:50,020 --> 00:07:54,900 experience AI Mike like as me? And I think that factors into 157 00:07:55,060 --> 00:07:57,300 factors heavily into my experience of it, which is that 158 00:07:57,300 --> 00:08:01,860 it's I enjoy it, maybe not entirely, but significantly 159 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:05,885 because of how strange it is. Mhmm. I wonder I was wondering 160 00:08:05,885 --> 00:08:09,325 as I was listening to it. I was like, could we ever actually use 161 00:08:09,325 --> 00:08:13,245 this as a tool when we like have to retract something? 162 00:08:13,805 --> 00:08:15,805 I would be curious to know what you think Hans, but my feeling 163 00:08:15,805 --> 00:08:20,590 is that it might not be as easy as one might think it should be. 164 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:21,470 Mike Rugnetta: I think that's right. I think 165 00:08:21,470 --> 00:08:23,470 Hans Buetow: at the moment, no. Yeah. And I wanna be clear 166 00:08:23,470 --> 00:08:26,990 parenthetically that we actually had access to you. We chose to 167 00:08:26,990 --> 00:08:27,230 make 168 00:08:27,310 --> 00:08:27,550 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. 169 00:08:27,550 --> 00:08:28,030 Mike Rugnetta: That is true. 170 00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:30,750 Hans Buetow: Even though we had full access to you to 171 00:08:30,750 --> 00:08:32,910 Mike Rugnetta: be able to record this. We thought it was funny. 172 00:08:32,910 --> 00:08:33,150 Yes. 173 00:08:33,755 --> 00:08:35,115 Jason Oberholtzer: And it was out of deference to your 174 00:08:35,115 --> 00:08:37,595 vacation. You did the thing that, you know, you're not 175 00:08:37,595 --> 00:08:38,555 supposed to do. 176 00:08:38,555 --> 00:08:39,915 Mike Rugnetta: Took a real vacation. 177 00:08:39,915 --> 00:08:42,635 Jason Oberholtzer: You took a real vacation. Yeah. And you 178 00:08:42,635 --> 00:08:42,795 should 179 00:08:42,795 --> 00:08:44,395 Mike Rugnetta: be punished for that. Yes. 180 00:08:45,195 --> 00:08:45,515 Georgia Hampton: You were. 181 00:08:45,570 --> 00:08:46,530 Mike Rugnetta: And you were. Yeah. 182 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:48,370 Jason Oberholtzer: No. The thing you did that you're not supposed 183 00:08:48,370 --> 00:08:50,850 to do is you brought a microphone on vacation just in 184 00:08:50,850 --> 00:08:54,210 case we needed any punch ins or anything there. And when we did, 185 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:56,930 you were going to set up and we said, no. You go have your 186 00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:58,370 stupid vacation. 187 00:08:58,930 --> 00:08:59,650 Hans Buetow: Go enjoy your 188 00:08:59,650 --> 00:09:03,085 Jason Oberholtzer: family. Yeah. That we instead we're gonna do 189 00:09:03,085 --> 00:09:06,845 this because it would be fun for us and would force you to not 190 00:09:06,845 --> 00:09:08,445 stop vacationing. 191 00:09:09,085 --> 00:09:12,925 Hans Buetow: And I think that this would be hard to to 192 00:09:12,925 --> 00:09:15,885 earnestly make a mic because it just doesn't sound enough like 193 00:09:15,885 --> 00:09:20,720 you. No. I think we retrained it on a little bit better copy, it 194 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,840 would work like we're more in gave it more intentional 195 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:24,800 training material 196 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:25,840 Mike Rugnetta: It could get closer. 197 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,960 Hans Buetow: Than yeah. To make it closer to you, and then 198 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,675 really like worked at it maybe, and definitely in like a year, 199 00:09:32,675 --> 00:09:35,795 because a year ago, the technology was wildly different. 200 00:09:35,795 --> 00:09:37,875 This is also why I like to use it is because I think it's 201 00:09:37,875 --> 00:09:41,555 really important to kind of understand what state the the 202 00:09:41,555 --> 00:09:48,870 technology is in, and it changes so quickly that I mean, I was 203 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:53,350 making fun of the the emotion tags, but it's pretty incredible 204 00:09:53,350 --> 00:09:55,670 what it can do. It can sigh. It can laugh. 205 00:09:55,670 --> 00:10:00,275 It creates mics laugh weirdly. It can, like, cluck. It can do 206 00:10:00,275 --> 00:10:03,235 all sorts of things. I can make it sing. I made it sing. 207 00:10:03,235 --> 00:10:04,275 Mike Rugnetta: What mood is Yeah. 208 00:10:06,675 --> 00:10:07,795 Mike Rugnetta: Feeling barnyard. 209 00:10:07,795 --> 00:10:09,475 Hans Buetow: And that's just gonna get more that's just we're 210 00:10:09,475 --> 00:10:11,715 gonna have have more and more nuanced control where we're 211 00:10:11,715 --> 00:10:14,010 gonna be able to do more and more nuanced things with it. So 212 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:16,650 I think eventually, yes. I don't think it's there yet. 213 00:10:16,650 --> 00:10:16,890 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. 214 00:10:16,890 --> 00:10:20,650 Jason Oberholtzer: To me, there's a distinction where this 215 00:10:20,650 --> 00:10:24,250 does not feel like generative AI. I would not call this 216 00:10:24,250 --> 00:10:27,130 generative AI. Yeah. To me generative AI is something that 217 00:10:27,130 --> 00:10:30,295 is performing the facsimile of creativity. Yeah. 218 00:10:30,295 --> 00:10:35,335 That is being marketed as AI. This to me is an audio tool 219 00:10:36,055 --> 00:10:39,815 wielded by humans, the same way that the iZotope suite of 220 00:10:39,815 --> 00:10:44,740 plugins includes a lot of audio tools that are AI marketed and 221 00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:49,060 motivated that are used by us to do things that we cannot do on 222 00:10:49,060 --> 00:10:49,540 our own. 223 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:51,300 Mike Rugnetta: And that's you mean things like, you know, 224 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:52,580 that's noise reduction. 225 00:10:52,980 --> 00:10:54,500 Mike Rugnetta: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 226 00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:55,860 Jason Oberholtzer: Like finding the profile of the 227 00:10:55,860 --> 00:10:59,755 reverberations of a room and then showing me that profile so 228 00:10:59,755 --> 00:11:00,795 that I can take it out. 229 00:11:00,875 --> 00:11:04,395 Mike Rugnetta: I mean, I do realize the intrusion of AI into 230 00:11:04,715 --> 00:11:11,760 everything is incredibly frustrating. You know, we hate 231 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,200 it too. So I hope it's balm enough to know that we didn't 232 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,080 use any big gross generative AI tools in this episode nor any 233 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,880 other episode. So, you know, we understand. I totally 234 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:23,200 understand. 235 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,735 We only got a few emails about this, but, you know, I wanted to 236 00:11:25,735 --> 00:11:26,055 make sure that 237 00:11:26,055 --> 00:11:29,255 Jason Oberholtzer: we take them seriously. Let's dive back into 238 00:11:29,255 --> 00:11:34,055 more meta mailbag action. As predicted, mailbags beget 239 00:11:34,055 --> 00:11:37,815 mailbags topics. In response to the previous mailbag, there were 240 00:11:37,815 --> 00:11:42,410 two emails I wanted to pull out. One, a piece of gear 241 00:11:42,410 --> 00:11:43,530 recommendation. 242 00:11:45,130 --> 00:11:47,050 Hans Buetow: Wait. Dude, you just lifted your cat over your 243 00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:50,410 head when you said that. Was that is that is Robert being 244 00:11:50,410 --> 00:11:51,290 recommended to us? 245 00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:52,410 Georgia Hampton: He's Bluetooth enabled. 246 00:11:54,825 --> 00:11:58,105 Jason Oberholtzer: We got an email from Manuel who says, 247 00:11:58,105 --> 00:12:01,945 friends, I wanna share my dumbified, I'd rather use that 248 00:12:01,945 --> 00:12:05,785 term, not frictionless, way to consume audio media. I got one 249 00:12:05,785 --> 00:12:08,425 of those bone conducting earphones which are also 250 00:12:08,425 --> 00:12:12,100 waterproof, so I can use them while running or swimming. They 251 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:14,820 have an internal memory, so I can go around and listen to 252 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:16,820 stuff without having to constantly carry my phone with 253 00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:19,140 me, which has drastically reduced how much time I spend 254 00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:22,740 looking at it. But I think the best feature, in my opinion, is 255 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:26,465 how little options this device has. Volume up, volume down, 256 00:12:26,465 --> 00:12:28,785 skip forward, skip backward, pause. 257 00:12:29,105 --> 00:12:33,425 No shuffle, no playlist or anything. As soon as the last 258 00:12:33,425 --> 00:12:36,625 file is played, the loop starts from the beginning. This forces 259 00:12:36,625 --> 00:12:39,505 me to regularly curate my content which I find very 260 00:12:39,505 --> 00:12:43,190 refreshing. It still feels weird not to have the weight of the 261 00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:45,670 phone in my pocket, or not having to worry about how far 262 00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:48,150 from the phone I'm going before the Bluetooth signal drops, but 263 00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:50,070 I'm getting used to moving freely. 264 00:12:50,390 --> 00:12:51,110 Hans Buetow: I've had to get 265 00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:54,025 Jason Oberholtzer: getting used to moving freely. The only 266 00:12:54,025 --> 00:12:57,785 downside listen, this is important. I get this. The only 267 00:12:57,785 --> 00:13:02,025 downside is that I can't skip ads. But oh no, wait. 268 00:13:02,345 --> 00:13:07,520 This is not an issue at all. Because for only $4 a month, I 269 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,400 can get Never Post without ads. And I can guarantee you that 270 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,080 listening to pet sounds while underwater is really something. 271 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,560 Mike Rugnetta: Oh, Manuel. Oh, Manuel. VIP. 272 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,680 Mike Rugnetta: That is 273 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:22,335 Hans Buetow: incredible with the plug. Mhmm. 274 00:13:22,335 --> 00:13:23,855 Jason Oberholtzer: That's so rad. I've never heard of that. 275 00:13:23,855 --> 00:13:25,855 Hans Buetow: Have you have you ever experienced have you have 276 00:13:25,855 --> 00:13:27,935 you has anyone ever tried bone conduction headphones? 277 00:13:27,935 --> 00:13:29,855 Jason Oberholtzer: People have told me this happens. I've never 278 00:13:29,855 --> 00:13:30,255 done it. 279 00:13:30,255 --> 00:13:32,095 Georgia Hampton: I've never heard of this before. I'm so 280 00:13:32,095 --> 00:13:32,655 curious. 281 00:13:32,655 --> 00:13:35,320 Hans Buetow: So this is if you ever look at, like, if you 282 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,680 watch, like, military movies and stuff, these are the headphones 283 00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:41,560 that they often have on. So what they do is it it attaches to 284 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:45,320 your jaw or around your jaw, and it sends the vibrations of the 285 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,745 audio through your skull, through the bones, which keeps 286 00:13:48,745 --> 00:13:51,545 your ear canal open so you can fully hear everything that's 287 00:13:51,545 --> 00:13:54,345 still happening with full fidelity. But what happens is 288 00:13:54,345 --> 00:13:57,625 your head becomes a resonating chamber, and you hear the 289 00:13:57,865 --> 00:14:00,025 whatever's happening kind of in the center of your 290 00:14:00,025 --> 00:14:01,460 Mike Rugnetta: head. What? 291 00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:03,780 Hans Buetow: Yeah. I used to wear one I used to wear one when 292 00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:06,260 I was a bike messenger so that I could keep my ears clear and I 293 00:14:06,260 --> 00:14:09,460 could hear traffic, but I could still hear the like, whatever 294 00:14:09,460 --> 00:14:10,660 was happening on the radio. 295 00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:13,380 Mike Rugnetta: I think of them as being popular for folks who 296 00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:16,865 work in offices. Right? And you can't, you know, you have to be 297 00:14:17,105 --> 00:14:20,545 present and like, listen listening to your environment, 298 00:14:20,545 --> 00:14:25,265 but also listen to Neverpost and the ad free feed only $4 a 299 00:14:25,265 --> 00:14:25,745 month. 300 00:14:27,345 --> 00:14:30,210 Jason Oberholtzer: This actually relates in some ways to the 301 00:14:30,210 --> 00:14:34,370 other email I wanted to pull out that responded to last mailbag 302 00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:38,850 from Oliver, who is responding to a comment Mike made while we 303 00:14:38,850 --> 00:14:42,290 were chatting that said, there is no knowing things without the 304 00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:47,005 body. The body is so really intimately involved in 305 00:14:47,005 --> 00:14:52,205 knowledge. This made Oliver think. He says, it made me think 306 00:14:52,205 --> 00:14:54,845 about how much of our communication online is 307 00:14:54,845 --> 00:14:57,960 flattened to the written word or to emojis, and the added 308 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,200 importance of good written communication education and 309 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,320 literacy. Years ago, I wrote my master's thesis on written 310 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,840 education and literacy, ostentatious title incoming. 311 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:07,880 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. Let's go. 312 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,105 Jason Oberholtzer: Writing do. The way of writing, the 313 00:15:12,105 --> 00:15:15,465 instructional effectiveness of kinesthetic teaching methods as 314 00:15:15,465 --> 00:15:16,905 called from martial arts. 315 00:15:16,905 --> 00:15:18,265 Mike Rugnetta: That sounds sick as hell. 316 00:15:18,265 --> 00:15:20,985 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. In it, I discussed how physical 317 00:15:20,985 --> 00:15:24,025 movements can inform our methods of communication, and you can 318 00:15:24,025 --> 00:15:27,150 take the teaching methods from a physical art like karate, 319 00:15:27,150 --> 00:15:30,350 capoeira, or tai chi, and transfer them to the analytical 320 00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:35,070 art of written communication, or learning critical pedagogy, or 321 00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:38,925 learning eco composition. The big thrust of my argument, which 322 00:15:38,925 --> 00:15:42,125 I still stand by decades later, is a punch and a sentence are 323 00:15:42,125 --> 00:15:45,965 fundamentally the same thing. As both are delivering an idea or 324 00:15:45,965 --> 00:15:49,645 feeling from the creator to the recipient. Both speaking and 325 00:15:49,645 --> 00:15:51,085 sparring are dialogues. 326 00:15:51,085 --> 00:15:54,350 For many students, thinking of grammar is tricky, but when you 327 00:15:54,350 --> 00:15:58,430 tell them that when a happens, do b, much like when punch comes 328 00:15:58,430 --> 00:16:03,070 to chest, do this block, the simplicity can click for some. I 329 00:16:03,070 --> 00:16:05,630 firmly believe that more people should learn the distinction 330 00:16:05,630 --> 00:16:09,415 between learning and knowing. My best example is a physical one. 331 00:16:09,415 --> 00:16:12,295 You can learn that a knife is sharp all you want by studying 332 00:16:12,295 --> 00:16:14,855 it, by looking at the blade profile, but the moment you 333 00:16:14,855 --> 00:16:18,455 accidentally nick yourself, you know it is sharp, and that will 334 00:16:18,455 --> 00:16:20,215 stick with you for all your days. 335 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:23,500 Mike Rugnetta: A sentence and a punch are fundamentally the same 336 00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:24,700 thing, goes hard. 337 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:25,980 Mike Rugnetta: It really does. 338 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:27,980 Hans Buetow: In two ways. 339 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:29,580 Mike Rugnetta: True. 340 00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:31,260 Mike Rugnetta: I think about this sort of thing all the time, 341 00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:35,820 because I I read a lot, and over the last couple years, I have 342 00:16:36,925 --> 00:16:41,085 really gone to great lengths to try to cut down on how much I 343 00:16:41,085 --> 00:16:44,125 read that's like important to me. Like, I I wanna know it 344 00:16:44,125 --> 00:16:49,490 just, know, for my own knowledge or for work on a screen. I try 345 00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:52,610 really really hard to not read things on a screen that I need 346 00:16:52,610 --> 00:16:56,130 to remember because I find that I just don't remember them as 347 00:16:56,130 --> 00:16:57,650 well. Mhmm. Mhmm. 348 00:16:57,650 --> 00:17:00,050 And I was actually thinking about this, like, this morning. 349 00:17:00,050 --> 00:17:02,290 I gotta go get a book from the library, and I was thinking 350 00:17:02,290 --> 00:17:06,905 about, like, my schedule of, when and how I'm gonna read it, 351 00:17:06,985 --> 00:17:10,105 and, you know, how I'm gonna fit it into my day. And I started 352 00:17:10,105 --> 00:17:16,185 thinking about I was like, am I should I choose somewhere unique 353 00:17:16,585 --> 00:17:21,290 to go and read this in the hopes that that lets me remember 354 00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:26,970 things about it easier. I wonder if my, like, embodied knowledge 355 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:31,530 of this text will have, like, greater resolution if I'm 356 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:36,065 somewhere that I am not normally. Is Hans is making all 357 00:17:36,065 --> 00:17:36,865 kinds of hand motions. 358 00:17:36,865 --> 00:17:39,425 Hans Buetow: Yeah. My this is a thing. This I find this amazing. 359 00:17:39,425 --> 00:17:42,065 I think about it all the time. My editor at the New York Times, 360 00:17:42,065 --> 00:17:45,105 who's incredible, she would not take notes when she would 361 00:17:45,105 --> 00:17:45,425 listen. 362 00:17:45,425 --> 00:17:48,225 So I would send her audio of something, and then she would go 363 00:17:48,225 --> 00:17:50,820 and she would walk. We all know about, like, how walking 364 00:17:50,820 --> 00:17:53,940 stimulates the brain and all of that, but she would geolocate 365 00:17:53,940 --> 00:17:58,500 her notes. So when she got back to her computer, she would 366 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:02,340 remember her walk and be like, okay. Green Volkswagen. That was 367 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:04,740 the part where Hans did this thing, and I wanted to change it 368 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:05,140 to this thing. 369 00:18:05,755 --> 00:18:08,955 Broken mailbox. Okay. Like, that's how she did her notes was 370 00:18:08,955 --> 00:18:12,875 by locating them geographically in physical space, which I 371 00:18:12,875 --> 00:18:16,875 always, like, is so fascinating to me to, like, really embody, 372 00:18:16,875 --> 00:18:18,555 really locate information in space. 373 00:18:18,860 --> 00:18:20,300 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I think this is really interesting 374 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:23,340 thinking of the way communication exists in 375 00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:27,420 different three d or four d forms. Because I have a version 376 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:30,140 of this sometimes with music where I can remember things 377 00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:33,835 better because I was listening to a certain part of a song when 378 00:18:33,835 --> 00:18:37,595 I was writing something, or if I was taking notes on something. 379 00:18:37,595 --> 00:18:43,035 Like, it it, like, recalls that memory to me easier because of 380 00:18:43,035 --> 00:18:47,000 the auditory connection I've made. 381 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,320 Mike Rugnetta: Mhmm. Yeah. I believe that. 382 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,920 Georgia Hampton: And I'm also curious, Oliver, if in your 383 00:18:52,920 --> 00:19:00,705 writing in this piece, like, if at all and how maybe dance can 384 00:19:00,705 --> 00:19:04,705 be another example of this. Because to me, like, dance is an 385 00:19:04,705 --> 00:19:08,240 interesting physical version of this where it's less 386 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,800 confrontational. You're not physically fighting each other, 387 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,320 but you are still physically communicating to each other. It 388 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,680 is also something you can do by yourself in the way that you can 389 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,080 be talking to yourself. You can be dancing alone. 390 00:19:21,155 --> 00:19:27,555 And I don't know. I'm I'm interested in knowing more about 391 00:19:27,555 --> 00:19:30,675 the physical manifestation of communication beyond just 392 00:19:30,755 --> 00:19:31,795 physical fighting. 393 00:19:33,610 --> 00:19:35,370 Jason Oberholtzer: Well, this is not gonna be the last time we 394 00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:39,210 talk about dance. So dance heads, get ready. Because 395 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:41,690 there's a bunch of emails that came into Georgia about dance 396 00:19:41,690 --> 00:19:45,130 we'll do later. The final thing this reminds me of, I haven't 397 00:19:45,130 --> 00:19:47,225 thought about this in a long time, Back when I had to 398 00:19:47,225 --> 00:19:49,865 remember more phone numbers because you just had to remember 399 00:19:49,865 --> 00:19:57,785 more phone numbers. I started linking the numbers to notes of 400 00:19:57,785 --> 00:20:00,425 the scale, so that I could sing somebody's phone number and 401 00:20:00,425 --> 00:20:01,305 that's how I remember them. 402 00:20:02,010 --> 00:20:03,530 Hans Buetow: What? You'd make a melody out of it? 403 00:20:03,530 --> 00:20:05,530 Jason Oberholtzer: You would make a melody out of it. Oh. 404 00:20:05,530 --> 00:20:06,410 Georgia Hampton: I love that. 405 00:20:06,410 --> 00:20:07,930 Jason Oberholtzer: Because you're only ever getting up to 406 00:20:07,930 --> 00:20:11,130 like a tenth. Right? Yeah. I would make a little melody and I 407 00:20:11,130 --> 00:20:14,570 could the melody or if it's like an easy to remember harmonic 408 00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:17,235 structure, I'd remember that and someone's number would be a 409 00:20:17,235 --> 00:20:18,195 harmonic structure. 410 00:20:18,195 --> 00:20:24,115 Hans Buetow: Cool. Next up is a comment from Matt Storm, who 411 00:20:24,115 --> 00:20:27,635 sent us a voice mail message about the story that I did about 412 00:20:28,035 --> 00:20:31,780 animating photos using AI. So taking still images, moving them 413 00:20:31,780 --> 00:20:34,660 into moving images. 414 00:20:34,660 --> 00:20:36,900 Matt Storm: And this reminds me of something I've been seeing a 415 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:40,980 lot on TikTok lately, which is this AI tool that turns people 416 00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:46,215 into mermaids or makes your pets dance. I've seen them both, and 417 00:20:46,215 --> 00:20:49,895 I block every account I see using them because they just 418 00:20:49,895 --> 00:20:54,055 unsettle me. There's something about forcing an image, even if 419 00:20:54,055 --> 00:20:57,175 it's your own image, into a situation that's not real 420 00:20:57,970 --> 00:21:02,130 through AI that just makes my skin crawl. And I don't even 421 00:21:02,130 --> 00:21:05,410 know that I could tell you why. Right? 422 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:08,850 And Hans talks about this in his piece. But I'm curious if you 423 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:11,925 guys have seen this trend and what you think about it. You 424 00:21:11,925 --> 00:21:15,285 know, I just there's something about manipulating images. The 425 00:21:15,285 --> 00:21:17,605 one that really gets me that I've seen on TikTok is making 426 00:21:17,605 --> 00:21:20,645 two people kiss in an image. Like, that goes against 427 00:21:20,645 --> 00:21:22,565 everything that consent represents. 428 00:21:22,805 --> 00:21:25,525 Right? You are forcing two people who you cannot ask if 429 00:21:25,525 --> 00:21:28,730 they wanna kiss to kiss. It drives me bonkers. Sorry. I'm 430 00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:29,450 getting heated. 431 00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:33,050 Anyway, I'm curious how you think this connects to consent 432 00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:37,690 and basically your thoughts on that as well. Thanks. Keep up 433 00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:38,650 the awesome stuff. 434 00:21:39,205 --> 00:21:43,125 Hans Buetow: Matt, incredible. That is a huge part of the 435 00:21:43,125 --> 00:21:45,445 reason that people have been talking about making a new 436 00:21:45,445 --> 00:21:48,405 Humphrey Bogart movie or something or, like, animating 437 00:21:48,565 --> 00:21:51,525 our historical figures into things is, oh, well, the dead 438 00:21:51,525 --> 00:21:54,700 can't consent. But, like, I think we've seen it's not just 439 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:59,180 the dead anymore who, can you consent or not consent? Do you 440 00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:01,580 have to this is the thing that that Tory brought up. Do you 441 00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:05,100 have to actively opt out of having anything done with your 442 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:05,660 image? 443 00:22:05,980 --> 00:22:08,875 Do we have to make this a part of our wills? Georgia, have you 444 00:22:08,875 --> 00:22:11,835 seen these? You're our you're our TikTok maven. Have you seen 445 00:22:11,835 --> 00:22:13,835 these things that Matt is talking about? 446 00:22:14,075 --> 00:22:17,195 Georgia Hampton: So I haven't actually seen videos of, like, 447 00:22:17,195 --> 00:22:19,435 people turning themselves into mermaids or making people kiss 448 00:22:19,435 --> 00:22:24,550 as much, but it reminds me a lot of this music video that Kanye 449 00:22:24,550 --> 00:22:28,390 West did, like, years ago called Famous, in which he portrayed 450 00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:31,030 himself in bed with a bunch of other famous people, including 451 00:22:31,030 --> 00:22:35,990 Taylor Swift, and it engendered this huge response and a lot of 452 00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:39,615 controversy. And I believe Taylor Swift maybe taking legal 453 00:22:39,615 --> 00:22:42,815 action against him, or there at least being this very huge 454 00:22:42,815 --> 00:22:49,215 outcry against this kind of act. And it reminds me a lot of this 455 00:22:49,215 --> 00:22:53,010 because there is a question of consent here. And at the time, I 456 00:22:53,010 --> 00:22:55,730 think there was so much fixation on like, oh, well, you're super 457 00:22:55,730 --> 00:22:59,410 famous. Like, do you own the image of yourself? 458 00:22:59,410 --> 00:23:03,570 Do you have to like, do you have the right to tell someone that 459 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:06,395 they can't represent you in a certain way? Yeah. If you're 460 00:23:06,395 --> 00:23:11,035 making someone kiss or do anything, frankly, there's this 461 00:23:11,195 --> 00:23:16,395 question of consent. And what makes me even more uncomfortable 462 00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:22,580 is this suggestion that maybe consent, like, isn't required 463 00:23:22,580 --> 00:23:24,820 for someone to do this, especially if they think it's 464 00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:31,220 funny. So up next, we got a very interesting message from Josh, 465 00:23:31,460 --> 00:23:35,220 in regard to a segment I did on tactility and the general lack 466 00:23:34,975 --> 00:23:39,455 of buttons on our devices and how interfacing with the 467 00:23:39,455 --> 00:23:43,535 smoothness of technology leaves us wanting. 468 00:23:44,255 --> 00:23:47,615 Josh: A couple years ago for Christmas, I got this fantastic 469 00:23:47,615 --> 00:23:52,510 gooseneck kettle electric kettle for boiling water that you can 470 00:23:52,510 --> 00:23:57,070 program to set the water to specific temperatures for your 471 00:23:57,070 --> 00:24:01,470 various snobby high end coffees and teas. This gooseneck kettle 472 00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:05,015 is perfect. It does exactly what I needed to do. Nothing more, 473 00:24:05,015 --> 00:24:07,415 nothing less. However, the buttons on the front of it, 474 00:24:07,495 --> 00:24:10,855 they're not touch screens, they're, touch capacitive 475 00:24:10,855 --> 00:24:12,935 buttons that don't actually go down. 476 00:24:13,335 --> 00:24:15,895 But they also look like buttons and feel like buttons and that 477 00:24:15,895 --> 00:24:18,840 there's crevices and they're different shape and color than 478 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,960 the surrounding area of the the base of the kettle. So there's a 479 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,840 very serious design flaw here that I didn't discover until I 480 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,120 had the thing for a couple weeks, which is water makes 481 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:36,175 touch capacitive buttons get touched. Yes. So, like, anytime 482 00:24:36,175 --> 00:24:40,415 water from the kettle or was coming into or out of or close 483 00:24:40,415 --> 00:24:44,655 to the kettle would drip down, it would touch the button and 484 00:24:44,655 --> 00:24:48,690 make it go off. And because it was wet and it had crevices like 485 00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:51,730 a real button, the water would just sit in there and I had to 486 00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:55,010 wait for it to dry itself out before I could actually make the 487 00:24:55,010 --> 00:24:58,770 thing work again, which often postponed getting my water to 488 00:24:58,770 --> 00:25:02,855 the perfect temperature for five or ten minutes and, being a very 489 00:25:02,855 --> 00:25:04,055 frustrating experience. 490 00:25:04,615 --> 00:25:05,655 Mike Rugnetta: Oh my god. 491 00:25:06,055 --> 00:25:08,775 Jason Oberholtzer: I'm so proud of Josh for not just screaming 492 00:25:08,775 --> 00:25:10,055 that entire time. 493 00:25:10,295 --> 00:25:13,895 Georgia Hampton: I mean, again, it's it's this hubris of 494 00:25:13,895 --> 00:25:18,600 technological quote unquote advancement. The blind trudging 495 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:25,560 forward of certain kinds of technological fads, which I 496 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,760 think honestly is what this is, is it just is endlessly telling 497 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,185 on itself. Like, it's ridiculous. That doesn't make 498 00:25:34,185 --> 00:25:36,985 any sense. Like, yeah, it it should be something wherein, 499 00:25:37,545 --> 00:25:39,945 product testing that comes up immediately. 500 00:25:40,265 --> 00:25:41,625 Hans Buetow: I think it's so interesting that they don't 501 00:25:41,625 --> 00:25:44,425 actually save anything. Like, the whole point of being touch 502 00:25:44,425 --> 00:25:45,385 sensitive is you wouldn't have 503 00:25:45,385 --> 00:25:46,265 Mike Rugnetta: to have the you wouldn't have 504 00:25:46,265 --> 00:25:47,990 Hans Buetow: to make it look feel like a button, but they 505 00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:50,310 wanted it to look and feel like a button, but also have that 506 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:55,350 like, why not just make them buttons then? Why Yeah. Why make 507 00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:55,590 Mike Rugnetta: it a 508 00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:56,150 Hans Buetow: different thing? 509 00:25:56,150 --> 00:25:58,630 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. But you can't market a kettle with a 510 00:25:58,630 --> 00:26:03,545 button in the description on the Amazon page. It's kettle with 511 00:26:03,545 --> 00:26:07,145 touch sensitivity that goes right in Yeah. The title 512 00:26:07,145 --> 00:26:08,985 description, which is how we buy things now. 513 00:26:08,985 --> 00:26:09,305 Hans Buetow: Yeah. 514 00:26:09,305 --> 00:26:11,145 Mike Rugnetta: It's a psyop. It's a psyop. 515 00:26:11,145 --> 00:26:13,225 Mike Rugnetta: It's a psyop. Psyop. 516 00:26:13,225 --> 00:26:17,065 Mike Rugnetta: It's unraveling society. One cup of coffee at a 517 00:26:17,065 --> 00:26:22,320 time. Speaking of psyops, I did a segment a little while ago 518 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,960 about how everything is increasingly feeling like a 519 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,520 gamble or like gambling, and that feeling is really prevalent 520 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:37,055 online. And we got a voice mail from Tom about this. 521 00:26:37,135 --> 00:26:40,895 Hans Buetow: As an artist, you know, I feel like over the last 522 00:26:40,895 --> 00:26:43,295 decade, we're being bombarded with all these different, you 523 00:26:43,295 --> 00:26:46,270 know oh, if you wanna make a living online, you need to be 524 00:26:46,270 --> 00:26:50,190 posting at these times. You need to be posting this often. Use 525 00:26:50,190 --> 00:26:51,870 hashtags. Don't use hashtags. Go. 526 00:26:51,870 --> 00:26:54,750 Twitter's blocking hashtags. Go. X hashtags. In the blue sky, 527 00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:59,070 they work. It's it's this this constant deluge of information. 528 00:26:59,070 --> 00:27:02,485 At a certain point, it starts to feel like, does anyone actually 529 00:27:02,485 --> 00:27:08,165 know what these what you know, if these tips work? Like No. 530 00:27:08,485 --> 00:27:12,405 Because the platform changes how the rules work from one day to 531 00:27:12,405 --> 00:27:16,210 the next without even letting us know. It just feels like we're 532 00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:22,530 we're sort of thrown to see, I guess, dealing with all this. 533 00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:25,330 And at a certain point, for your own mental health, I feel like 534 00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:29,330 you need to just say fuck it and just post what you want to post 535 00:27:29,330 --> 00:27:30,450 when you wanna post it. 536 00:27:30,995 --> 00:27:34,035 You know, if if you if you worry about all of the different 537 00:27:34,115 --> 00:27:38,995 possible factors, then you're gonna be so petrified. You wanna 538 00:27:38,995 --> 00:27:42,915 be able to to create anything. It's sad out here, but but not 539 00:27:42,915 --> 00:27:45,155 caring about those things had done wonders for my mental 540 00:27:45,155 --> 00:27:48,620 health. And my followers have gone up. So yay. 541 00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:53,020 Mike Rugnetta: Yay. I think yay. Yes. Yay. Yay. 542 00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:54,060 Yay, Tom. 543 00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:56,940 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I agree. I think trying to imagine the 544 00:27:56,940 --> 00:28:00,055 world that the algorithm wants, wherever algorithm it is that 545 00:28:00,055 --> 00:28:03,175 you're, you know, trying to imagine is just such a trap. I 546 00:28:03,175 --> 00:28:06,295 think if you're like a really particular kind of person, it 547 00:28:06,295 --> 00:28:09,815 can be like a fulfilling challenge. Like if I think, you 548 00:28:09,815 --> 00:28:13,760 know, there are some people who I've met in my life online who 549 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,160 are really good at just figuring out, like, having an intuitive 550 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,080 sense of like what to put up when and where and with what 551 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,600 metadata around it. 552 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:23,760 Mike Rugnetta: But 553 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,445 Mike Rugnetta: like, that's what they do. You know what I mean? 554 00:28:26,445 --> 00:28:32,285 Like, they really really invest a lot of time into building that 555 00:28:32,285 --> 00:28:36,125 skill and staying up on, like you say, all of the algorithm 556 00:28:36,125 --> 00:28:40,490 changes. And I think that's not for everyone. I think it's not 557 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:43,530 for the vast majority of people. 558 00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:47,370 I think the other secret to this is that it's like, you I don't 559 00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:52,065 necessarily think that making and posting things that the 560 00:28:52,065 --> 00:28:57,185 algorithm likes, wherever that is, is going to be the thing 561 00:28:57,185 --> 00:29:04,305 that makes a particular poster or account popular. It is 562 00:29:04,305 --> 00:29:11,350 something that can assist in reach on a platform and thus 563 00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:14,710 help you become more popular, but it's not like the make or 564 00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:19,030 break thing. And in that way, it really is just so much more 565 00:29:19,405 --> 00:29:22,925 fulfilling and less crazy making to just focus on the thing 566 00:29:22,925 --> 00:29:25,965 itself. And then, you know, let all that other stuff just sort 567 00:29:25,965 --> 00:29:28,765 of like, if you can't think about it, sure, why not? But 568 00:29:28,765 --> 00:29:30,445 like, don't force yourself to do it. 569 00:29:30,445 --> 00:29:35,310 You're just gonna you're just gonna go nuts. We also got a 570 00:29:35,550 --> 00:29:37,950 voicemail from user friendly sounds. 571 00:29:37,950 --> 00:29:40,590 User Friendly: Before I start, I would just like to sort of make 572 00:29:40,590 --> 00:29:44,190 it clear that I generally agree with what Mike is saying in the 573 00:29:44,190 --> 00:29:47,605 piece and overall think social media is bad. With that out of 574 00:29:47,605 --> 00:29:52,085 the way, being somewhat of a semi pro content creator, I 575 00:29:52,085 --> 00:29:55,765 suppose, and more from an artistic standpoint, I just 576 00:29:55,765 --> 00:30:00,245 wanted to mention a couple of things. In regards to the few 577 00:30:00,245 --> 00:30:05,970 times that it seems like there's a suggestion that maybe posting 578 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:11,090 is just a slot machine like as scrolling. I think I kind of 579 00:30:11,090 --> 00:30:16,205 agree with the idea in some ways, but to other creators out 580 00:30:16,205 --> 00:30:20,205 there, I just sort of wanted to to at least defend it a little 581 00:30:20,205 --> 00:30:27,485 bit. And the main point is that it is fairly low effort to 582 00:30:27,485 --> 00:30:27,965 scroll. 583 00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:33,060 It's really high effort in a lot of cases, obviously not all 584 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:38,100 cases. In a lot of cases, it's high effort to post. And 585 00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:43,380 regardless of how many views or clicks or likes or whatever the 586 00:30:43,380 --> 00:30:46,875 thing is that you get, you still made the thing and that's 587 00:30:46,875 --> 00:30:52,955 valuable. And if you continue to make the thing, it's gonna 588 00:30:52,955 --> 00:30:58,760 improve over time just by default. But I think, this sort 589 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,240 of idea of a writer or a painter or a musician practice your 590 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,080 craft every day, write something every day, make a beat every 591 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,920 day, whatever the thing is, that is a really good technique. 592 00:31:11,225 --> 00:31:15,385 But I think it can actually be improved if you make a thing 593 00:31:15,385 --> 00:31:19,145 every day and then show it to people. Because you're gonna 594 00:31:19,145 --> 00:31:22,825 create a little bit differently when you know that you're gonna 595 00:31:22,825 --> 00:31:26,630 be putting in front of somebody, whether that's 50 people or a 596 00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:30,230 million people, it doesn't matter. It's for a lot of us, 597 00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:33,510 it's gonna we're gonna think a little bit differently about how 598 00:31:33,510 --> 00:31:37,110 we're making what we're making if we're planning on sharing it. 599 00:31:37,925 --> 00:31:41,605 Mike Rugnetta: So first things first. If you don't know, User 600 00:31:41,605 --> 00:31:46,725 Friendly's work, he's on Instagram, I think mostly, and 601 00:31:46,725 --> 00:31:50,405 his work rules. User Friendly Sounds is great. He's like a 602 00:31:50,405 --> 00:31:54,760 great glitchy sound designer, like music maker, makes great 603 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,600 visuals. So one, highly recommend User Friendly's work. 604 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,800 Second, like I agree broadly with all of these things. I 605 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,735 think we were generally in agreement. I know that it 606 00:32:06,735 --> 00:32:10,415 doesn't seem this way, but I don't want the point of that 607 00:32:10,415 --> 00:32:13,615 segment at least to fully come across as like social media is 608 00:32:13,615 --> 00:32:16,735 bad. I think the thing that I'm trying to figure out how to say 609 00:32:16,735 --> 00:32:20,350 is that it's like, social media is bad when you surrender too 610 00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:24,430 much of your agency to it. It's really really easy to forget 611 00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:27,230 that like, we have agency in these relationships that we have 612 00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:29,470 with technology, and like that's the thing that's bad. 613 00:32:29,710 --> 00:32:33,310 And it's bad that the software is designed on purpose to like 614 00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:36,595 siphon that to siphon that agency away from you or to give 615 00:32:36,595 --> 00:32:41,155 you excuses to give it up and to reward you with these paltry 616 00:32:41,155 --> 00:32:45,795 things to do so. I can understand the idea that, like, 617 00:32:45,795 --> 00:32:49,790 posting is high effort and scrolling is low effort, But I 618 00:32:49,790 --> 00:32:52,510 think the moment we're in now, we have a lot of people who talk 619 00:32:52,510 --> 00:32:56,190 about just like getting trapped in social media. You know, this 620 00:32:56,190 --> 00:32:58,910 started as like, oh, I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole, right, 621 00:32:58,910 --> 00:33:02,510 like a decade or two ago. And you like lost a bunch of hours 622 00:33:02,510 --> 00:33:04,990 reading interesting things. Now, it's like, well, I'm, you know, 623 00:33:05,765 --> 00:33:11,765 really just deleted two hours scrolling through TikTok, which 624 00:33:12,325 --> 00:33:15,925 is itself, I think, a kind of high effort activity. 625 00:33:16,965 --> 00:33:22,430 It it's a it's a lot of energy being spent, But, yeah, it 626 00:33:22,430 --> 00:33:24,830 doesn't have the outcome of like, well, then at least you 627 00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:27,230 made something. I think sometimes we like dilute 628 00:33:27,230 --> 00:33:28,910 ourselves a little bit and thinking like, well, now I know 629 00:33:28,910 --> 00:33:31,150 more about what's happening on the Internet or like, I've 630 00:33:31,150 --> 00:33:34,510 experienced the sort of media or information environment for a 631 00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:37,535 little bit, and that's good for me for reasons. But, yeah, for 632 00:33:37,535 --> 00:33:40,975 the most part, you don't come out with anything, but you do, I 633 00:33:40,975 --> 00:33:42,735 think, expend a lot of effort. 634 00:33:43,055 --> 00:33:45,615 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. I mean, we've talked 635 00:33:45,615 --> 00:33:48,650 about this before specifically with TikTok. And I know I've 636 00:33:48,650 --> 00:33:51,690 said the thing that I experience all the time with TikTok where 637 00:33:51,690 --> 00:33:55,530 I'll just be sort of sucked into it and then kind of zap myself 638 00:33:55,530 --> 00:33:57,530 out and be like, what am I looking for right now? 639 00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:01,370 Yeah. Because I've realized that over however long that I've been 640 00:34:01,370 --> 00:34:07,715 on TikTok, I feel this, like, growing frenzy, within me of, 641 00:34:07,715 --> 00:34:12,515 like, where is it? Where is it? Like and, like, I'm not looking 642 00:34:12,515 --> 00:34:16,355 for anything, but there is yeah. This sort of boiling a frog 643 00:34:16,355 --> 00:34:19,750 situation where maybe at first, scrolling through TikTok 644 00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:23,190 especially seems low effort, kind of relaxing, just like I 645 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:25,670 wanna kind of go down the lazy river of my mind. 646 00:34:26,150 --> 00:34:28,950 And then it it changes. It never stays like that. 647 00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:30,790 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. The yeah. The feeling I get is like, I'll 648 00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:33,990 be like, where am I going? Where do I Yeah. Think I'm headed? 649 00:34:34,495 --> 00:34:37,295 And Yes. Have I have I arrived there? 650 00:34:37,935 --> 00:34:41,215 Georgia Hampton: Is there a destination at all, in fact? 651 00:34:41,615 --> 00:34:42,095 Mhmm. 652 00:34:42,095 --> 00:34:46,175 Jason Oberholtzer: I also think that his point about repetition 653 00:34:46,175 --> 00:34:50,660 of showing creativity to people, or in this case, a defensive 654 00:34:50,660 --> 00:34:55,940 posting, which I'll allow. Showing it to people in the form 655 00:34:55,940 --> 00:34:59,700 of a post is well taken. That is true. You do create differently 656 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,475 when a perceived audience stops being imagined and starts 657 00:35:02,475 --> 00:35:03,435 becoming real. 658 00:35:03,435 --> 00:35:03,915 Mike Rugnetta: 100%. 659 00:35:03,915 --> 00:35:06,875 Jason Oberholtzer: And I think it's probably beneficial whether 660 00:35:06,875 --> 00:35:10,395 or not your endgame involves showing things to people as 661 00:35:10,395 --> 00:35:14,860 posts for remuneration. I think it's probably valuable even if 662 00:35:14,860 --> 00:35:18,060 it's just to make better paintings or whatnot. So I think 663 00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:22,940 it's about taking point. There's one more email in here about the 664 00:35:22,940 --> 00:35:27,015 gambling segment from Gustav. He says he's been thinking about 665 00:35:27,015 --> 00:35:29,655 the old expression, the house always wins. 666 00:35:29,815 --> 00:35:33,255 Gustav says, the reason why casinos design their spaces and 667 00:35:33,255 --> 00:35:36,135 games to keep people playing is because they, over the long run, 668 00:35:36,135 --> 00:35:38,860 get more out of you than you get out of them. I think it holds 669 00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:42,940 true for online platforms though as astute media savvy folks, e g 670 00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:46,220 listeners have never post, $4 a month if you don't remember. We 671 00:35:46,220 --> 00:35:49,900 might believe we're gaming that system in some way. Like because 672 00:35:50,235 --> 00:35:53,995 we maybe use ad blockers or VPNs and curate our feeds well, we 673 00:35:53,995 --> 00:35:57,755 can get more out of the platform than it can extract from us. On 674 00:35:57,755 --> 00:35:59,435 an individual level, it might be true. 675 00:35:59,435 --> 00:36:02,475 Even casinos will have customers who get in when a small amount 676 00:36:02,475 --> 00:36:06,040 get out in time. But on a societal level, the level of 677 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,680 these massive platforms, those cases are probably 678 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:14,280 insignificant. The question then is, what does winning look like 679 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,015 for the owners of these platforms? If Google decided to 680 00:36:18,015 --> 00:36:20,735 weigh their algorithms to favor anti regulation messaging, or 681 00:36:20,735 --> 00:36:24,495 Meta decided to subtly back right wing reactionaries, would 682 00:36:24,495 --> 00:36:28,255 we have any way of stemming the tide of public opinion? Would we 683 00:36:28,255 --> 00:36:31,375 even know what was going on, and could we prove them culpable? 684 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,480 I think what's happening with Elon's takeover Twitter might 685 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,360 just be a more visible and incompetent version of a process 686 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,600 that is shaping world politics already in less obvious ways. 687 00:36:44,135 --> 00:36:46,935 Gustav, I think the question of what does winning look like for 688 00:36:46,935 --> 00:36:51,735 a particular platform is a very good question. The extent to 689 00:36:51,735 --> 00:36:55,255 which we can guess about what is already happening, I will leave 690 00:36:55,255 --> 00:36:58,990 to any individual mind. But I think it's very instructive to 691 00:36:58,990 --> 00:37:02,430 think about, whereas a casino has a very obvious definition of 692 00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:05,150 what winning is, extracting money from people who walk in 693 00:37:05,150 --> 00:37:08,990 their doors. Platforms, I think have a more complicated version 694 00:37:08,990 --> 00:37:10,670 of what winning ends up looking like. 695 00:37:10,785 --> 00:37:15,025 Ultimately, course, separating us from our money, but there are 696 00:37:15,025 --> 00:37:19,025 a lot of other games they are playing, especially as their 697 00:37:19,025 --> 00:37:22,385 vestigial tendencies from their ZERB funded beginnings still 698 00:37:22,385 --> 00:37:23,265 play themselves out. 699 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:26,100 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I mean, to it's I think the comparison to 700 00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:29,140 the house holds and I think yeah, Jason, your point about 701 00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:31,220 like, really they separate people from their time and their 702 00:37:31,220 --> 00:37:34,420 money, separate them from their their time to get their money 703 00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:38,420 Mhmm. Is true. But like the big difference is that a casino, 704 00:37:38,775 --> 00:37:42,375 it's not like gray goo. You know, like it doesn't the casino 705 00:37:42,375 --> 00:37:43,815 doesn't grow. 706 00:37:43,815 --> 00:37:45,015 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Casinos rule. 707 00:37:45,015 --> 00:37:46,055 Mike Rugnetta: That's the difference. 708 00:37:47,415 --> 00:37:48,775 Georgia Hampton: You can smoke cigarettes in there. 709 00:37:48,775 --> 00:37:51,095 Mike Rugnetta: In defensive casinos. Yeah. 710 00:37:51,255 --> 00:37:53,175 Jason Oberholtzer: I never smoked a cigarette in my phone. 711 00:37:54,650 --> 00:37:57,050 Mike Rugnetta: Just, you know, imagine if, like, Caesar's 712 00:37:57,050 --> 00:38:01,370 Palace just grew one inch every minute and just swallowed 713 00:38:02,330 --> 00:38:04,970 swallowed the entirety of The United States and then the 714 00:38:04,970 --> 00:38:05,530 world. 715 00:38:05,530 --> 00:38:07,865 Georgia Hampton: I mean, that's kind of what it is. Right? Like, 716 00:38:07,865 --> 00:38:09,945 thinking about this when, Jason, you were reading it, it feels 717 00:38:09,945 --> 00:38:12,905 very much like, yeah, that the notion of winning when it comes 718 00:38:12,905 --> 00:38:17,305 to online platforms is exists in my mind as the way that universe 719 00:38:17,305 --> 00:38:21,160 is endlessly expanding. There is kind of no end point. It's 720 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,600 always growing in the same way our individual experience on 721 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,840 platforms is this feeling of kind of chasing something or 722 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,120 following something. 723 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,195 There's no satisfying, I've reached the end of the stack of 724 00:38:35,195 --> 00:38:38,635 stuff, like, that's never going to happen. I think the same is 725 00:38:38,635 --> 00:38:39,755 true for platforms, 726 00:38:39,755 --> 00:38:40,075 Mike Rugnetta: but in 727 00:38:40,075 --> 00:38:43,195 Georgia Hampton: a more evil way. 728 00:38:43,835 --> 00:38:46,075 Jason Oberholtzer: Well, you know one thing that does have a 729 00:38:46,075 --> 00:38:51,000 clear ending? The first half of this podcast episode. 730 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,600 Mike Rugnetta: We're gonna go to a break 731 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,200 Jason Oberholtzer: and come back with more emails and voice 732 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:18,925 messages. Welcome back, gamblers. We have an email from 733 00:39:18,180 --> 00:39:23,460 Crow in response to the leaving social media roundtable. Crow 734 00:39:23,460 --> 00:39:26,740 says, whenever I feel the urge to check Instagram and Twitter, 735 00:39:26,820 --> 00:39:30,420 I have to do it through my phone's browser app, because 736 00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:33,875 Crow has deleted the applications themselves. The 737 00:39:33,875 --> 00:39:36,995 browser app, which is a terrible experience just because of how 738 00:39:36,995 --> 00:39:38,115 bizarre it feels. 739 00:39:38,195 --> 00:39:40,915 And I think it really works for me because I'm just so much more 740 00:39:40,915 --> 00:39:44,275 aware of how awful social social media is when the act of 741 00:39:44,275 --> 00:39:48,940 browsing is also awful. Twitter is already a terrible website, 742 00:39:48,940 --> 00:39:52,220 but intentionally making my own user experience worse is 743 00:39:52,220 --> 00:39:55,580 actually kind of liberating. I know y'all have talked about the 744 00:39:55,580 --> 00:39:58,140 tactic of using your phone screen time function to limit 745 00:39:58,140 --> 00:40:01,825 social media use, but that's still a product of design. I 746 00:40:01,825 --> 00:40:05,505 think maybe we should be using anti design tactics. Yeah. 747 00:40:06,145 --> 00:40:08,225 Georgia Hampton: This is like using hostile architecture on 748 00:40:08,225 --> 00:40:09,905 yourself. Yeah. Exactly. 749 00:40:09,905 --> 00:40:12,545 Mike Rugnetta: I used to do this and it works really well. 750 00:40:12,545 --> 00:40:12,945 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. 751 00:40:12,945 --> 00:40:16,490 Mike Rugnetta: I use Firefox Focus, which is the mobile 752 00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:20,570 browser that only has one tab. You can't open more than one tab 753 00:40:20,570 --> 00:40:23,850 in it. And when you quit What? It's and it's a permanent 754 00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:26,810 private mode. So it doesn't save any cookies. 755 00:40:26,810 --> 00:40:30,515 It doesn't keep you logged into things. It deletes your history. 756 00:40:30,835 --> 00:40:35,155 When you quit the app, it loses the page, and when you reopen 757 00:40:35,155 --> 00:40:37,235 it, it's just blank. There's nothing there. 758 00:40:37,395 --> 00:40:40,115 Hans Buetow: It roots out the page code, deletes the page 759 00:40:40,115 --> 00:40:41,555 itself. It comes to 760 00:40:41,555 --> 00:40:42,515 Mike Rugnetta: your house and smacks 761 00:40:42,515 --> 00:40:43,635 Mike Rugnetta: you around a little. 762 00:40:44,115 --> 00:40:45,470 Hans Buetow: It goes back in time. 763 00:40:45,470 --> 00:40:46,510 Georgia Hampton: Cheese your car. 764 00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:47,310 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. It 765 00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:53,870 Mike Rugnetta: rules. I it is like, you know, I worry about 766 00:40:53,870 --> 00:40:57,945 the day that it is no longer maintained because it is the 767 00:40:57,945 --> 00:41:02,825 fact that it has no features is its best feature, and it does 768 00:41:02,825 --> 00:41:05,945 really help me, like, deal with, you know, this kind of thing, 769 00:41:05,945 --> 00:41:07,145 like staying off of stuff. 770 00:41:07,225 --> 00:41:10,585 Hans Buetow: So like you open something up into this delicate 771 00:41:10,665 --> 00:41:14,060 ecosystem that you know will fail. Like, does that change how 772 00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:15,900 you interact with it? You can't be like, oh, I'll come back to 773 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:19,020 this later, or oh, saving this, and like letting it like, do you 774 00:41:19,020 --> 00:41:21,260 have to resolve everything as you're doing it? What does it 775 00:41:21,260 --> 00:41:21,980 change for you? 776 00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:24,620 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I don't well, like, means that I'm not, 777 00:41:24,620 --> 00:41:29,775 let's say, like, logged into Bandcamp constantly. Right? So I 778 00:41:29,775 --> 00:41:33,055 can't if I wanna buy a record, right, I have to log in to 779 00:41:33,055 --> 00:41:36,895 Bandcamp and add it to cart and then what what you know, I can't 780 00:41:36,895 --> 00:41:40,175 just go to the tab where I have Bandcamp open already logged in. 781 00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:41,030 Yeah. 782 00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:44,070 So like that's just a recent example of like, you know, 783 00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:47,990 putting putting roadblocks in my way so that I don't like spend 784 00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:51,350 too much money, so that I don't spend too much time online. 785 00:41:51,590 --> 00:41:53,110 Georgia Hampton: I feel like what we're kinda talking about 786 00:41:53,110 --> 00:41:56,865 here is just removing convenience. 787 00:41:57,185 --> 00:41:58,385 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I think so. 788 00:41:58,385 --> 00:42:03,665 Georgia Hampton: It turns things into this featureless, smooth, 789 00:42:04,225 --> 00:42:09,025 frictionless experience. And I I really like this idea of of 790 00:42:09,025 --> 00:42:10,145 adding friction. 791 00:42:10,305 --> 00:42:11,970 Mike Rugnetta: You gotta get yourself a browser that stands 792 00:42:11,970 --> 00:42:13,730 in your doorway and goes, uh-uh. 793 00:42:14,130 --> 00:42:15,650 Georgia Hampton: No. No. No. 794 00:42:15,810 --> 00:42:18,610 Jason Oberholtzer: Gotta get you a bone conducting earphone. It 795 00:42:18,610 --> 00:42:20,130 has its own memory. 796 00:42:21,650 --> 00:42:24,130 Hans Buetow: This conversation actually ties into the next 797 00:42:25,245 --> 00:42:28,365 comment that we got, which is from our friend, best friend, we 798 00:42:28,365 --> 00:42:30,525 love you, Tom Lum. 799 00:42:30,525 --> 00:42:32,285 Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. We love you. 800 00:42:32,285 --> 00:42:33,325 Mike Rugnetta: Love Tom. Tom. 801 00:42:33,325 --> 00:42:35,725 Hans Buetow: Tom. Tom. Tom. Tom sent us something saying, quote, 802 00:42:35,725 --> 00:42:39,805 I wanted to share these two TikToks that I leave the app on 803 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,680 whenever I need to focus to stop myself from mindlessly opening 804 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,120 the app and scrolling. And Georgia, you are the resident. 805 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,200 Mike Rugnetta: TikTok I'm already there, baby. 806 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:49,600 Hans Buetow: Can you 807 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,200 Hans Buetow: tell us tell us what I haven't even opened these 808 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,400 yet. Tell us what's going on. 809 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,665 Georgia Hampton: Okay. The first link. It's person on a couch. 810 00:42:57,625 --> 00:43:00,345 The text above them says, that moment when you're done rotting 811 00:43:00,345 --> 00:43:03,465 and ready to be a human. It's exactly what I've described. 812 00:43:03,465 --> 00:43:07,305 Basically, what they're doing is sitting there and then they 813 00:43:07,305 --> 00:43:12,790 kinda go like, and throw their phone like onto the floor or 814 00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:15,110 just stand up and are like, alright. Alright. Alright. 815 00:43:15,110 --> 00:43:16,310 Alright. That's enough. 816 00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:21,510 And yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what it feels like. And then the 817 00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:24,665 second one interesting. Okay. 818 00:43:24,665 --> 00:43:26,425 Mike Rugnetta: This is good. I like this. 819 00:43:29,145 --> 00:43:32,345 Georgia Hampton: Single image of a big old block of what looks 820 00:43:32,345 --> 00:43:35,785 like cheddar cheese with text over it that reads, if you're 821 00:43:35,785 --> 00:43:38,425 looking at this block of cheese, you have scrolled to the bottom 822 00:43:38,425 --> 00:43:42,160 of your FYP, and it's time for you to get off TikTok and go to 823 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,120 sleep. Your eyes are getting heavy, and you need to go to 824 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,000 sleep and get some rest for whatever you're doing tomorrow. 825 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,840 You have been on TikTok way too long. I hope you sleep well and 826 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,040 have sweet dreams. Good night. 827 00:43:54,855 --> 00:43:56,775 Jason Oberholtzer: Perfect. Perfect. There's typos, which 828 00:43:56,775 --> 00:43:57,415 make it even better. 829 00:43:57,415 --> 00:43:58,935 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. They're sure. It's even better. 830 00:43:58,935 --> 00:44:03,815 Hans Buetow: Yep. Thanks, Tom. In our next set of questions, we 831 00:44:03,815 --> 00:44:09,880 got some questions slash stories from some folks asking about how 832 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,320 many cameras are there. From the segment, how many cameras are 833 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,520 there, where I ask the question, how many 834 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:17,160 Jason Oberholtzer: How many 835 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:18,520 Hans Buetow: cameras are there? 836 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:19,720 Jason Oberholtzer: Keep it going. One more time. 837 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,600 Mike Rugnetta: Just how many cameras are there? 838 00:44:24,395 --> 00:44:27,915 Hans Buetow: The first one was anonymous, and they said, I 839 00:44:27,915 --> 00:44:30,715 worked at a small location with a very small number of 840 00:44:30,715 --> 00:44:35,915 employees, about three to five, and an overbearing micromanaging 841 00:44:35,915 --> 00:44:40,130 boss who was there almost every day. About a year into working 842 00:44:40,130 --> 00:44:43,970 there, he installed cameras in the store, ones that he could 843 00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:48,290 view the feed from his phone. Shrugging it off as security, we 844 00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:51,890 went about our workdays just like normal. He would come into 845 00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:54,925 the store less, and when he was away, we would talk shit as 846 00:44:54,925 --> 00:44:58,925 coworkers often do. Somehow the tension and horrible vibes in 847 00:44:58,925 --> 00:45:01,725 the store became increasingly worse than usual whenever the 848 00:45:01,725 --> 00:45:03,485 boss was in. 849 00:45:04,125 --> 00:45:06,685 One day, I was complaining about him when one of my coworkers 850 00:45:06,685 --> 00:45:10,720 pulled me aside and showed me a sheet of paper that said, quote, 851 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:16,400 I think he's listening to us. The immediate shock I felt, 852 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,600 exclamation point. I felt embarrassed too because, of 853 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,035 course, I had said things that I wouldn't say to his face. I then 854 00:45:24,035 --> 00:45:27,075 looked at the laws in my state regarding surveilling employees 855 00:45:27,075 --> 00:45:32,355 and found out that, yeah, it was in fact okay to listen in on 856 00:45:32,355 --> 00:45:33,235 employees. 857 00:45:33,395 --> 00:45:34,035 Hans Buetow: Oui. 858 00:45:34,595 --> 00:45:37,235 Hans Buetow: The idea of him watching and listening to us on 859 00:45:37,235 --> 00:45:40,590 his phone, found upsetting. It was a real invasion of privacy 860 00:45:40,590 --> 00:45:43,310 in my opinion. What I wear, whether or not I can use my 861 00:45:43,310 --> 00:45:45,870 phone at all, and the time I have to be at work and confined 862 00:45:45,870 --> 00:45:49,390 to a specific building are already controlled by my 863 00:45:49,390 --> 00:45:53,485 employer. My speech being controlled as well felt like an 864 00:45:53,485 --> 00:45:57,245 insult to injury. I think a time before security systems like 865 00:45:57,245 --> 00:46:00,845 that was a time where you could be more human, slack off a 866 00:46:00,845 --> 00:46:02,765 little, joke around with coworkers. 867 00:46:03,565 --> 00:46:06,340 I don't want to be forced to be a robot just because I know 868 00:46:06,340 --> 00:46:13,300 someone is watching. I think this is harrowing. Like, that's 869 00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:16,740 just really, really hard to realize how much you're being 870 00:46:16,740 --> 00:46:20,785 surveilled, And there's a lot in this. There is, however, one 871 00:46:20,785 --> 00:46:25,105 thing in here that I wanna point out that I think is important 872 00:46:25,105 --> 00:46:29,265 for people to think about that people probably know, but I 873 00:46:29,265 --> 00:46:32,470 think people know but don't know, which is what is a 874 00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:35,750 reasonable expectation of privacy? I think we get really 875 00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:37,910 it's it's a thread that I think goes through some of the things 876 00:46:37,910 --> 00:46:39,590 we've already talked about in this episode. 877 00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:44,070 But when anonymous tells us that it was they looked up state laws 878 00:46:44,070 --> 00:46:47,685 regarding surveilling employees that, yeah, it is okay, in fact, 879 00:46:47,685 --> 00:46:50,645 okay to listen in on employees. That's true. If you're in a 880 00:46:50,645 --> 00:46:54,005 public space or if you're in a privately owned space with rules 881 00:46:54,005 --> 00:46:57,365 to that says it is possible, if there's a sign at the door, it 882 00:46:57,365 --> 00:47:00,720 depends on where you are. These things are completely legal and 883 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:06,880 allowed to happen. What is your expectation of privacy is quite 884 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,440 low, actually. 885 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,600 And places that we haven't really figured out is what if 886 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,525 you bring a device in or is giving away a bunch of data an a 887 00:47:15,525 --> 00:47:21,525 breach in privacy in other ways. I can for example, Minnesota, 888 00:47:21,525 --> 00:47:27,060 where I live, is a one party consent state. Not all are, 889 00:47:27,060 --> 00:47:30,260 which means if I do an interview, I can legally record 890 00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:34,340 it as long as I know I'm recording it. One party in the 891 00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:36,660 conversation has to know it's being recorded, and that party 892 00:47:36,660 --> 00:47:41,075 can be me doing the recording. Please note I would never do 893 00:47:41,075 --> 00:47:41,395 this. 894 00:47:41,395 --> 00:47:45,395 This is not a tactic that I use, but it is legally allowed. And 895 00:47:45,395 --> 00:47:49,795 that's just one example of many of how the right to privacy is 896 00:47:49,875 --> 00:47:53,155 pretty sticky, and actually when you confront where we are 897 00:47:53,155 --> 00:47:57,110 allowed to be surveilled is is pretty gross and doesn't feel 898 00:47:57,110 --> 00:47:57,590 good. 899 00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:59,990 Mike Rugnetta: It should be a law that you can talk shit about 900 00:47:59,990 --> 00:48:03,830 your boss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just put it right in the 901 00:48:03,830 --> 00:48:05,030 constitution. 902 00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:08,485 We're we're working. That thing's a work in progress right 903 00:48:08,485 --> 00:48:09,925 now anyways. Let's just put it in there. 904 00:48:09,925 --> 00:48:10,485 Georgia Hampton: For real. 905 00:48:10,485 --> 00:48:10,725 Mike Rugnetta: I feel 906 00:48:10,725 --> 00:48:12,005 Hans Buetow: like it's I feel like it's open. 907 00:48:12,005 --> 00:48:12,245 Hans Buetow: We could 908 00:48:12,325 --> 00:48:13,445 Hans Buetow: somebody opened the door. 909 00:48:13,445 --> 00:48:15,125 Mike Rugnetta: Maybe it's a requirement, actually. Article 910 00:48:15,125 --> 00:48:18,725 one. You are legally required to talk shit about your boss. 911 00:48:18,725 --> 00:48:20,885 Jason Oberholtzer: Article one. Your boss is a herb. 912 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,120 Mike Rugnetta: Fuck that guy. 913 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,480 Hans Buetow: Anonymous also pointed us to a website, 914 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:34,280 instacam.org, which is insecam, instacam.org, on which anyone 915 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,705 can access any video feed of any unsecured surveillance camera 916 00:48:37,705 --> 00:48:40,025 that has a connection to the Internet, which I have not 917 00:48:40,025 --> 00:48:43,625 looked at and cannot verify, but woah. Click Let's all go check 918 00:48:43,625 --> 00:48:45,065 that out. Yep. Yeah. 919 00:48:45,305 --> 00:48:47,865 Jason Oberholtzer: Everyone click until you can see Georgia. 920 00:48:51,870 --> 00:48:56,110 Hans Buetow: We also got a comment from Stevie, who said in 921 00:48:56,110 --> 00:49:00,910 response to a comment that Carl made in the in the two mailbags 922 00:49:00,910 --> 00:49:05,070 ago about counting 11 cameras in a famous vegetarian restaurant 923 00:49:05,070 --> 00:49:09,975 and musing about what do they need all of that surveillance 924 00:49:09,975 --> 00:49:10,535 for. 925 00:49:11,175 --> 00:49:15,655 Stevie: So I used to work in fine dining, and we used to have 926 00:49:15,655 --> 00:49:22,450 cameras essentially over every table in the dining room so 927 00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:27,410 that, we could see the rate at which people were eating. We 928 00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:31,410 served, like, tasting menus. We served, like, prefix menus. So 929 00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:35,085 we wanted to know as soon as people were done, so we could 930 00:49:35,085 --> 00:49:37,885 clear their tables and drop the new dishes. 931 00:49:39,005 --> 00:49:41,165 Hans Buetow: There you go, folks. Reasonable expectation of 932 00:49:41,165 --> 00:49:42,365 privacy. Woah. 933 00:49:42,365 --> 00:49:44,685 Mike Rugnetta: God. Woah. Fuck 934 00:49:45,005 --> 00:49:48,450 Mike Rugnetta: that. Yeah. Oh my god. 935 00:49:49,810 --> 00:49:52,050 Jason Oberholtzer: This sucks, dude. Yeah. 936 00:49:52,770 --> 00:49:55,490 Mike Rugnetta: Talk about a seafood dinner. Hey. 937 00:49:55,490 --> 00:49:56,210 Hans Buetow: Oh my god. 938 00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:59,570 Mike Rugnetta: It's good now. I like it now. 939 00:50:01,285 --> 00:50:04,485 Hans Buetow: The last one we got on this was from Dean, who sent 940 00:50:04,485 --> 00:50:07,685 us a, something about phone cameras. 941 00:50:08,085 --> 00:50:13,045 Dean: The phone camera has obviously become ubiquitous, and 942 00:50:13,045 --> 00:50:16,310 I think a angle that I can't remember if it was in the 943 00:50:16,310 --> 00:50:21,750 original story or not, is this fear that comes with the phone 944 00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:27,030 camera of, at least for me, ending up viral without 945 00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:31,515 noticing. The idea that has, like, escalated since, like, 946 00:50:31,515 --> 00:50:35,035 twenty ten's prank videos of anybody could be filming you for 947 00:50:35,035 --> 00:50:41,370 their funny TikTok or making fun of you or something. And yikes. 948 00:50:42,250 --> 00:50:43,850 Georgia Hampton: Well, dude. Oh, 949 00:50:44,170 --> 00:50:46,730 Hans Buetow: You great minds. Georgia, why don't you take 950 00:50:46,730 --> 00:50:47,290 this? 951 00:50:47,530 --> 00:50:49,850 Georgia Hampton: You got a big storm coming. 952 00:50:50,490 --> 00:50:53,055 Mike Rugnetta: I think just as a quick aside, I think about every 953 00:50:53,055 --> 00:50:57,135 time I'm walking around the city carrying something weird. Yes. 954 00:50:57,135 --> 00:50:59,855 Where I'm like, am I gonna be am I gonna be a what is New York? 955 00:50:59,855 --> 00:51:02,735 Is this the time that someone from their window is taking a is 956 00:51:02,735 --> 00:51:03,855 taking a video of me? Yep. 957 00:51:03,855 --> 00:51:07,290 Georgia Hampton: This is the perfect transition to the 958 00:51:07,290 --> 00:51:11,770 submissions that we got about my segment, about why nobody dances 959 00:51:11,770 --> 00:51:16,410 at the club anymore. And the answer, obviously, is because of 960 00:51:16,410 --> 00:51:19,690 this exact thing of people either being on their phones and 961 00:51:19,690 --> 00:51:22,855 just scrolling through Instagram or TikTok or whatever, texting. 962 00:51:23,495 --> 00:51:28,295 But also that people are on the dance floor recording things, 963 00:51:28,295 --> 00:51:30,535 recording each other, recording the DJ, recording someone 964 00:51:30,535 --> 00:51:34,935 dancing, perhaps, a little too extravagantly for their taste. 965 00:51:34,935 --> 00:51:38,670 And before we get into it, I will tell you guys, I literally 966 00:51:38,670 --> 00:51:40,190 lived this this weekend. 967 00:51:40,190 --> 00:51:40,910 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. 968 00:51:41,150 --> 00:51:43,870 Georgia Hampton: I went out dancing with my friend. It was 969 00:51:43,870 --> 00:51:46,910 early in the night. The dance floor was, you know, pockmarked 970 00:51:46,910 --> 00:51:49,790 with people. It wasn't super busy yet and there was this 971 00:51:49,790 --> 00:51:53,635 couple that had come together and we're standing on the 972 00:51:53,635 --> 00:51:57,795 outskirt of the dance floor, just recording the dance floor. 973 00:51:58,115 --> 00:51:59,555 People dancing. 974 00:51:59,555 --> 00:52:03,315 And my friend and I both noticed it and we're like, this makes me 975 00:52:03,315 --> 00:52:05,795 super uncomfortable. What are you doing? Why are you doing 976 00:52:05,795 --> 00:52:06,195 this? 977 00:52:06,195 --> 00:52:07,235 Hans Buetow: You said this to them? 978 00:52:07,590 --> 00:52:08,550 Georgia Hampton: No. No. No. No. No. 979 00:52:08,550 --> 00:52:10,470 Hans Buetow: Oh, you just said this to the to the air. 980 00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:14,390 Georgia Hampton: No. I'm not trying to get got. But it was 981 00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:16,950 no. Was my friend and I were basically just commenting on 982 00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:22,035 that to each other of how instantly uncomfortable it is to 983 00:52:22,035 --> 00:52:24,275 actually witness this. And it was kind of the first time I'd 984 00:52:24,275 --> 00:52:25,555 really seen it myself. 985 00:52:25,555 --> 00:52:29,315 I knew this was a thing, but it was it's incredibly unsettling. 986 00:52:29,555 --> 00:52:30,835 Jason Oberholtzer: God, that sucks. 987 00:52:30,835 --> 00:52:35,395 Georgia Hampton: Anyway, I wanna start us with a voicemail we got 988 00:52:35,395 --> 00:52:41,930 from Travis at about a potential form of dance that might be a 989 00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:43,370 nice balm for this. 990 00:52:44,170 --> 00:52:47,370 Dean: My spouse, Ruby, and I go to contra dancing, which is like 991 00:52:47,370 --> 00:52:51,225 a country style dance. It's like line dancing and square dancing 992 00:52:51,225 --> 00:52:54,665 kinda combined. It's very nerdy and queer, but there's a lot of 993 00:52:54,665 --> 00:52:58,185 diversity in age. It's one of the things I like about it. And 994 00:52:58,185 --> 00:53:01,225 it's something where, like, it's partnered dancing, but you're 995 00:53:01,225 --> 00:53:04,105 actually encouraged not to dance with the person you came with. 996 00:53:04,530 --> 00:53:07,490 You absolutely can. But you're encouraged to do new partners 997 00:53:07,490 --> 00:53:11,010 every song. But one of the things that we've really liked 998 00:53:11,010 --> 00:53:14,290 about this is that it's, like, two and a half hours that we 999 00:53:14,290 --> 00:53:16,985 just don't think about our phones. We put it in a bag and 1000 00:53:16,985 --> 00:53:21,705 just forget it. And even when people take breaks in between 1001 00:53:21,705 --> 00:53:24,745 dance like, you know, if they're skipping a dance, they don't 1002 00:53:24,745 --> 00:53:25,465 look at their phones. 1003 00:53:25,465 --> 00:53:27,945 Like, people just, like, engage with each other. It is, like, so 1004 00:53:27,945 --> 00:53:29,465 fantastic the way that that works. 1005 00:53:29,890 --> 00:53:32,450 Jason Oberholtzer: Love it. Line dancing is the solution for 1006 00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:36,850 everything. Every problem we've outlined in this mailbag so far. 1007 00:53:36,850 --> 00:53:38,850 Hans Buetow: Yeah. I can't think of one that won't be solved that 1008 00:53:38,850 --> 00:53:40,050 way. Yeah. Good call. 1009 00:53:40,930 --> 00:53:44,345 Georgia Hampton: We also got a message from Kay who writes, as 1010 00:53:44,345 --> 00:53:48,265 a DJ, phones are a double edged sword. I want people to feel 1011 00:53:48,265 --> 00:53:51,225 connected to the music I'm playing, but I also do need 1012 00:53:51,225 --> 00:53:54,345 videos of people capturing the tracks I'm blending together. 1013 00:53:54,665 --> 00:53:57,960 It's important so that I can, a, hear how it sounded on the sound 1014 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,720 system if I'm not recording the set with other means, and b, use 1015 00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:05,960 it to advertise myself for gigs. Performative, for sure. However, 1016 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,600 here's my experience as someone in the Chicago scene. 1017 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,725 Oh my god. Hi, first of all. Hello. They continue saying, 1018 00:54:14,045 --> 00:54:16,925 dance floors of people from diverse backgrounds with house 1019 00:54:16,925 --> 00:54:20,365 and techno playing have little issue with the lack of dancing. 1020 00:54:20,685 --> 00:54:23,645 While the lack of dancing generally is due to phones to 1021 00:54:23,645 --> 00:54:26,780 some degree, in my view, any lack of dancing or communal 1022 00:54:26,780 --> 00:54:29,500 engagement with the DJ is a straight people problem. 1023 00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:32,060 Or wait, is it a straight people problem? 1024 00:54:33,100 --> 00:54:33,580 Jason Oberholtzer: Got them. 1025 00:54:36,715 --> 00:54:39,035 Georgia Hampton: There's a feeling of collective joy with 1026 00:54:39,035 --> 00:54:43,115 the DJ as the leader, but it's a much more relational experience 1027 00:54:43,115 --> 00:54:47,195 than simply being analogous to an audience viewing a band on 1028 00:54:47,195 --> 00:54:50,635 stage. The DJ is selecting tracks and responding to the 1029 00:54:50,635 --> 00:54:54,770 dancers, But it's a relational bond that I and many other DJs 1030 00:54:54,770 --> 00:54:57,810 view as sacred. The biggest difference I've noticed is that 1031 00:54:57,810 --> 00:55:01,730 as electronic music becomes more mainstream, beyond dubstep, you 1032 00:55:01,730 --> 00:55:04,850 find at EDM festivals, some bastardization of house, techno, 1033 00:55:04,850 --> 00:55:08,355 and rave music, I've heard DJs call it corporate techno, has 1034 00:55:08,355 --> 00:55:12,515 emerged that you can find young, white, straight, West Loop types 1035 00:55:12,515 --> 00:55:20,290 playing. It is a straight people problem. Those are the 1036 00:55:20,290 --> 00:55:22,930 environments where people don't dance out of fear of being 1037 00:55:22,930 --> 00:55:24,850 watched or captured on video. 1038 00:55:25,170 --> 00:55:29,330 Or they really want to be seen on video, as Tim articulated, 1039 00:55:29,330 --> 00:55:33,250 for influencing purposes. I think there's something here 1040 00:55:33,810 --> 00:55:41,225 about performance and wanting to signal to people online that you 1041 00:55:41,225 --> 00:55:46,505 have done something interesting. There's this currency that 1042 00:55:46,505 --> 00:55:52,880 starts getting generated when you see online a way of 1043 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,400 performing as cool. And it's being the person in an 1044 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,920 interesting outfit next to the DJ booth who is live streaming 1045 00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:04,080 their set. And that is so much more about the performance of 1046 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:08,215 being at this event, of looking interesting at this event, of 1047 00:56:08,215 --> 00:56:11,815 acting in a way that suggests that you're the kind of person 1048 00:56:11,815 --> 00:56:14,215 who would know about this, but blah blah blah. 1049 00:56:14,215 --> 00:56:18,535 Like, it's it's this play acting. It's not actually 1050 00:56:19,415 --> 00:56:20,215 participating. 1051 00:56:21,590 --> 00:56:25,510 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Which seems to actually be a 1052 00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:29,510 particular loss because there are things that as I'm learning 1053 00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:31,990 from like the beautiful responses some folks are sending 1054 00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:34,435 us, as well as what you articulate in your piece. Like, 1055 00:56:34,435 --> 00:56:37,635 there are some things about these clubs that are, to some 1056 00:56:37,635 --> 00:56:39,795 people, sacred. I don't think that's like, you know, an overly 1057 00:56:39,795 --> 00:56:42,755 ambitious word they're throwing around. But also like, these 1058 00:56:42,755 --> 00:56:46,755 spaces like have jobs to do outside of just being the 1059 00:56:46,755 --> 00:56:48,755 backdrop for people's social lives. 1060 00:56:49,130 --> 00:56:49,850 Georgia Hampton: Definitely. 1061 00:56:49,850 --> 00:56:51,850 Jason Oberholtzer: One one email that we got that stuck out to 1062 00:56:51,850 --> 00:56:53,930 me, that sort of helped me understand this about these 1063 00:56:53,930 --> 00:56:57,930 dance faces was from Philip, who grew up in a small town in 1064 00:56:57,930 --> 00:57:02,490 Germany. And it was actually a very nice accounting of what it 1065 00:57:02,490 --> 00:57:05,025 was like going to clubs when you were growing up in a small town 1066 00:57:05,025 --> 00:57:08,785 in Germany, and the ways we would do photo dumps, usually on 1067 00:57:08,785 --> 00:57:11,345 the Facebook at the end of every night out with our shitty little 1068 00:57:11,345 --> 00:57:14,145 digital cameras, which is certainly something that I 1069 00:57:14,145 --> 00:57:17,910 remember. He says, because of that, the first time I went to a 1070 00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:21,590 club with a no photo policy, it felt strangely serious. No 1071 00:57:21,590 --> 00:57:25,030 foolery, no innocent fun. This is a place for grown ups, I 1072 00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:25,430 thought. 1073 00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:28,070 You're allowed to be whoever you wanna be, but there are rules. 1074 00:57:28,585 --> 00:57:31,385 Rules I had to abide by, rules everyone else seemed to already 1075 00:57:31,385 --> 00:57:34,905 know and silently agree to follow. I was 25 years old and 1076 00:57:34,905 --> 00:57:38,105 still doubted whether I was even old enough to be here. I was 1077 00:57:38,105 --> 00:57:40,185 nervous and afraid of doing something wrong, but once I was 1078 00:57:40,185 --> 00:57:44,240 on the dance floor, I had one of the best nights of my life. He 1079 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:50,480 then goes on to describe how in contemporary German culture, the 1080 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,640 club scene has started shifting a little bit to his read of it. 1081 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,885 He says that beyond substance only, the no photo policy helps 1082 00:57:59,885 --> 00:58:02,285 reinforce club culture as a safe space for marginalized 1083 00:58:02,285 --> 00:58:05,965 communities, especially the LGBTQIA plus community. I've 1084 00:58:05,965 --> 00:58:08,525 noticed that the standard German club experience tends to be 1085 00:58:08,525 --> 00:58:12,040 catered primarily to a gay male able-bodied audience. Because of 1086 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,600 that, more and more events are working to include all people, 1087 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,240 establishing broader guidelines to improve well-being and safety 1088 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,120 for everyone. It's common for clubs to have accessible 1089 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,685 entrances, gender neutral, and flinta toilets, awareness teams 1090 00:58:24,685 --> 00:58:27,565 patrolling the premises, dedicated rest areas, free water 1091 00:58:27,565 --> 00:58:31,565 stations, and medical staff on-site. Does it all work? 1092 00:58:31,725 --> 00:58:34,605 Possibly not. It only takes one bad actor and things can go to 1093 00:58:34,605 --> 00:58:37,325 shit, but it helps to know there's someone you can turn to 1094 00:58:37,325 --> 00:58:40,370 for help. All of this exists to create a space where people can 1095 00:58:40,370 --> 00:58:43,810 be who they are and do what they love with no shame or guilt 1096 00:58:43,810 --> 00:58:47,330 attached. That's only possible when no cameras are allowed. No 1097 00:58:47,330 --> 00:58:51,410 pictures are taken and there's no social media aftermath to be 1098 00:58:51,410 --> 00:58:51,810 dealt with. 1099 00:58:52,195 --> 00:58:55,235 Disregarding these rules, especially by taking and posting 1100 00:58:55,235 --> 00:58:58,435 photos online feels almost sacrilegious. There it is again, 1101 00:58:58,435 --> 00:59:02,755 the sacred. So for me, the no photo policy has become not just 1102 00:59:02,755 --> 00:59:06,035 a rule, but a seal of approval for a proper night out. 1103 00:59:07,530 --> 00:59:09,850 Georgia Hampton: I'm so glad someone wrote in from Germany, 1104 00:59:09,850 --> 00:59:11,930 specifically. Yes. Because 1105 00:59:12,250 --> 00:59:14,010 Jason Oberholtzer: The subject matter experts. 1106 00:59:14,010 --> 00:59:17,930 Georgia Hampton: In general, it's just it's an incredibly 1107 00:59:17,930 --> 00:59:21,770 powerful and efficient practice in terms of self expression in 1108 00:59:21,770 --> 00:59:25,805 general, especially for marginalized communities. To be 1109 00:59:25,805 --> 00:59:28,685 able to be like, yeah, you can come here and dress how you 1110 00:59:28,685 --> 00:59:32,125 want. You can engage in certain kinds of sexual activities if 1111 00:59:32,125 --> 00:59:35,645 you want to. You can come here and do drugs with your friends. 1112 00:59:35,645 --> 00:59:39,510 Like, you can act out things you'd like to act out and behave 1113 00:59:39,510 --> 00:59:43,190 how you wanna behave, dress how you want, and there's no 1114 00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:45,430 documentation of it. 1115 00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:48,630 That agreement is crucial for this kind of self expression. 1116 00:59:49,110 --> 00:59:50,630 Mike Rugnetta: There's some interesting thing here about, 1117 00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:54,565 like, how in a location where all of those things happen, you 1118 00:59:54,565 --> 00:59:59,445 know, the engagement in so many different vices, the thing that 1119 00:59:59,445 --> 01:00:05,580 is truly profane ends up just being a document. Yeah. Like, 1120 01:00:05,580 --> 01:00:07,820 wonder if that's like, you know, there's there's maybe an 1121 01:00:07,820 --> 01:00:11,340 interesting line of thought there about the sacred being 1122 01:00:11,340 --> 01:00:15,500 sort of necessarily ephemeral. And that as soon as it becomes 1123 01:00:16,235 --> 01:00:20,555 fixed in a way, it's you've you've ruined it or dirtied it. 1124 01:00:20,555 --> 01:00:25,755 Jason Oberholtzer: Alright, kids. There is one last thing to 1125 01:00:25,755 --> 01:00:29,195 do. You know it. You love it. You were waiting for it even 1126 01:00:29,195 --> 01:00:30,475 though you can't remember the rules. 1127 01:00:31,060 --> 01:00:34,180 It is one word graffiti. 1128 01:00:34,340 --> 01:00:35,380 Mike Rugnetta: Wow. Chase and 1129 01:00:35,540 --> 01:00:36,260 Mike Rugnetta: Come on. 1130 01:00:36,740 --> 01:00:39,220 Jason Oberholtzer: I gotta be fair. Were you appropriately 1131 01:00:39,220 --> 01:00:42,980 chastised after the last mailbag because you all did a much 1132 01:00:42,980 --> 01:00:46,745 better job sticking relatively close to the prompt of one word 1133 01:00:46,745 --> 01:00:50,905 graffiti that is funny. Starting with Taylor from Oklahoma City 1134 01:00:50,905 --> 01:00:52,185 who sent in two. 1135 01:00:52,505 --> 01:00:54,985 Georgia Hampton: Okay. First one, we got your standard 1136 01:00:55,225 --> 01:00:58,830 residential sign that has a picture of a bicycle, and then 1137 01:00:58,830 --> 01:01:02,350 underneath it, it says, may use full lane. So bicycles may use 1138 01:01:02,350 --> 01:01:07,710 full lane. But someone has taken it upon themselves to cross off 1139 01:01:08,270 --> 01:01:12,795 the picture of the bicycle and just write the word punks under 1140 01:01:12,795 --> 01:01:16,555 it. So it says punks may use full lane. 1141 01:01:16,555 --> 01:01:19,835 Mike Rugnetta: Do we think this is celebratory of punks or 1142 01:01:19,835 --> 01:01:21,835 trying to dunk on cyclists? 1143 01:01:21,835 --> 01:01:24,890 Jason Oberholtzer: Oh. I never even considered it. And you know 1144 01:01:24,890 --> 01:01:26,490 what? I support it either way. 1145 01:01:27,290 --> 01:01:28,010 Mike Rugnetta: Why does he have to 1146 01:01:28,010 --> 01:01:28,810 Hans Buetow: do only one? 1147 01:01:28,890 --> 01:01:30,170 Jason Oberholtzer: He's gonna drill once. Alright. 1148 01:01:31,050 --> 01:01:32,890 Georgia Hampton: And we're down to the second submission. 1149 01:01:33,530 --> 01:01:38,410 Personally, my favorite of the two, in which we see a little 1150 01:01:39,345 --> 01:01:45,345 pyramid guy with some shoes and two little stick arms, both 1151 01:01:45,345 --> 01:01:50,865 reaching upwards, one closed eyelid and a bit of a a jagged 1152 01:01:50,865 --> 01:01:56,120 smile. And right next to it, it just says, forget about it. 1153 01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,320 Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. As one word, they slammed those letters 1154 01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:03,080 together to make one word out of it, which makes this admissible. 1155 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:04,920 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. 1156 01:02:05,335 --> 01:02:05,735 Jason Oberholtzer: I love it. 1157 01:02:05,735 --> 01:02:07,735 Mike Rugnetta: You know, I never would have expected when I woke 1158 01:02:07,735 --> 01:02:10,295 up this morning, I would see a happy pyramid doing the two 1159 01:02:10,295 --> 01:02:11,575 step. But here we are. 1160 01:02:11,575 --> 01:02:14,935 Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. Next, we got one in from Lily. Mike, what 1161 01:02:14,935 --> 01:02:15,975 do we got going on here? 1162 01:02:16,135 --> 01:02:19,170 Mike Rugnetta: So this is it looks like we're looking in the 1163 01:02:19,170 --> 01:02:25,410 window of maybe a ceramics shop and underneath that window on a 1164 01:02:25,410 --> 01:02:30,290 piece of stone has been scribbled a picture, a side view 1165 01:02:30,290 --> 01:02:37,245 of a rat inside the body of the rat. It says, rat with the 1166 01:02:37,245 --> 01:02:38,125 Anarchist There 1167 01:02:38,765 --> 01:02:40,125 Mike Rugnetta: you go. Yeah. 1168 01:02:40,125 --> 01:02:42,205 Jason Oberholtzer: And I've got a suspicion that this might be 1169 01:02:42,205 --> 01:02:45,085 one of those Anarchist listeners that we have. Because they also 1170 01:02:45,085 --> 01:02:49,280 included this little snippet of text under the image. Mike? 1171 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,480 Mike Rugnetta: Kind gut, kind stat, kind patriarch cat, 1172 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:55,840 patriarch chat. 1173 01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:57,280 Jason Oberholtzer: That's better than I could do. 1174 01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,320 Mike Rugnetta: Kind, kind, kinda, kinda means none. No. 1175 01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,505 Right? No god, no state. Yeah. 1176 01:03:02,505 --> 01:03:07,545 It can mean no, not not any, none, nobody, no one. So no god, 1177 01:03:07,545 --> 01:03:11,785 no state, no patriarchy. Alright. It's a good rat. It's a 1178 01:03:11,785 --> 01:03:12,265 very 1179 01:03:12,105 --> 01:03:12,425 Mike Rugnetta: It's a 1180 01:03:12,425 --> 01:03:12,825 Jason Oberholtzer: great rat. 1181 01:03:12,825 --> 01:03:15,305 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. It's a really, you know, approachable 1182 01:03:15,305 --> 01:03:15,945 rat. 1183 01:03:16,105 --> 01:03:20,460 Jason Oberholtzer: Next up, friend of the show, Talia, who 1184 01:03:20,460 --> 01:03:26,140 always follows the rules, sends in w e r m s worms. 1185 01:03:26,140 --> 01:03:29,180 Mike Rugnetta: Worms. Worms. Worms. 1186 01:03:29,180 --> 01:03:29,740 Georgia Hampton: Worms. 1187 01:03:29,740 --> 01:03:30,300 Stevie: Worms. 1188 01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:31,260 Jason Oberholtzer: Hans, what's next? 1189 01:03:32,055 --> 01:03:36,135 Hans Buetow: Next, we have on a salmon dirty salmon colored 1190 01:03:36,135 --> 01:03:39,015 wall. This does not qualify, Jason. I'm so sorry. 1191 01:03:39,015 --> 01:03:39,255 Matt Storm: Hang on. 1192 01:03:39,255 --> 01:03:41,575 Mike Rugnetta: You gotta say it the way it's written too. 1193 01:03:41,575 --> 01:03:53,780 Hans Buetow: Yes, please. It is no. La Polizia. No. La Polizia. 1194 01:03:53,860 --> 01:03:56,660 No. No. No. 1195 01:03:56,660 --> 01:04:00,100 Jason Oberholtzer: And then, like, sort of half a raised 1196 01:04:00,100 --> 01:04:00,500 penis. 1197 01:04:00,745 --> 01:04:03,625 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta 1198 01:04:03,625 --> 01:04:05,145 Mike Rugnetta: get one in every show, you know. 1199 01:04:06,265 --> 01:04:09,385 Jason Oberholtzer: Delightful. Technically, words. Technically. 1200 01:04:09,385 --> 01:04:16,710 This is balanced out by Tedder who sent the purest of all 1201 01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:17,350 submissions. 1202 01:04:17,350 --> 01:04:18,150 Mike Rugnetta: This is pretty good. 1203 01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:22,150 Jason Oberholtzer: One letter. This is good. Yes. Apparently, 1204 01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:24,390 there's a lot of streets. I believe these to be around 1205 01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:25,110 Portland. 1206 01:04:25,110 --> 01:04:27,110 Hans Buetow: Laurelhurst is what I'm reading. 1207 01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:31,195 Jason Oberholtzer: Northeast Flanders Street. Northeast, N E 1208 01:04:31,195 --> 01:04:34,875 Space Flanders Street. Into which space you can drop a 1209 01:04:34,875 --> 01:04:41,755 single letter d. Ned Flanders Street. One letter graffiti. 1210 01:04:41,995 --> 01:04:42,555 Tedder's the 1211 01:04:42,555 --> 01:04:42,955 Dean: winner right now. 1212 01:04:42,955 --> 01:04:44,635 Mike Rugnetta: It's good. It's funny. 1213 01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,040 Jason Oberholtzer: The final two we have here, I think our first 1214 01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,760 for us, two people decided to send in their graffiti in the 1215 01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:53,280 form of a video. The first one I don't think really needs it, but 1216 01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,800 there's something kind of nice about the ambiance of the slow 1217 01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,655 crawl of this across the screen and the scoring of what I assume 1218 01:05:00,655 --> 01:05:04,735 they were listening to in the car. Georgia, what's going on 1219 01:05:04,735 --> 01:05:05,215 here? 1220 01:05:05,215 --> 01:05:09,135 Georgia Hampton: First of all, I am attacked by the sound of Fade 1221 01:05:09,135 --> 01:05:16,175 Into by Mazi Star. And then, yes, we're we're seeing sort 1222 01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:15,510 Mike Rugnetta: of a 1223 01:05:15,510 --> 01:05:22,310 Georgia Hampton: skyline, a billboard upon which someone has 1224 01:05:22,310 --> 01:05:24,630 written what does that say? 1225 01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:26,630 Mike Rugnetta: I think it says Oprah. 1226 01:05:26,710 --> 01:05:27,190 Mike Rugnetta: I think it 1227 01:05:27,190 --> 01:05:29,270 Georgia Hampton: says Oprah. Oh my god. Of course, it says 1228 01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:31,815 Oprah. Oh my god. Says Oprah. 1229 01:05:31,815 --> 01:05:34,535 Sorry. Sorry, guys. Fonts aren't 1230 01:05:34,535 --> 01:05:35,415 Mike Rugnetta: my It's 1231 01:05:35,415 --> 01:05:37,895 Mike Rugnetta: a it's a whole billboard. 1232 01:05:37,895 --> 01:05:39,895 Mike Rugnetta: Oprah's huge. It's huge. 1233 01:05:40,215 --> 01:05:42,855 Georgia Hampton: Would have been done with, like, like, a rolling 1234 01:05:43,095 --> 01:05:44,135 like a paint roller. 1235 01:05:44,135 --> 01:05:44,295 Mike Rugnetta: It's 1236 01:05:44,295 --> 01:05:47,610 Georgia Hampton: like, this is enormous. Takes up the entire 1237 01:05:48,250 --> 01:05:52,810 rectangle of the billboard. Oprah. I find 1238 01:05:52,810 --> 01:05:55,050 Jason Oberholtzer: it deeply satisfying. I just keep looping 1239 01:05:55,050 --> 01:05:56,570 this. I find this very nice. 1240 01:05:56,890 --> 01:05:57,610 Mike Rugnetta: I don't know. Some of 1241 01:05:57,610 --> 01:06:00,335 Georgia Hampton: us aren't ready to receive as it turns out. 1242 01:06:02,095 --> 01:06:05,935 Jason Oberholtzer: And then the final one here is three words, 1243 01:06:06,655 --> 01:06:08,975 which made me not want to include it because that makes me 1244 01:06:08,975 --> 01:06:11,455 mad. But what made me happy is 1245 01:06:11,695 --> 01:06:13,775 Mike Rugnetta: It's the same two words twice in a row. 1246 01:06:14,130 --> 01:06:15,970 Jason Oberholtzer: You know, no matter how you slice it, I hate 1247 01:06:15,970 --> 01:06:19,970 it. But you went to the effort and this can only really be seen 1248 01:06:19,970 --> 01:06:25,170 by taking a video of it. Jordan sent in this video. Mike, what's 1249 01:06:25,170 --> 01:06:25,810 going on? 1250 01:06:26,210 --> 01:06:29,090 Mike Rugnetta: We're in a car and the car is on the highway 1251 01:06:29,090 --> 01:06:33,375 and we see a sign that says Nikolai Street and a building in 1252 01:06:33,375 --> 01:06:37,135 the background, in front of a hill that says Montgomery Park. 1253 01:06:37,135 --> 01:06:40,975 We're approaching, we are in the left hand lane with the Jersey 1254 01:06:40,975 --> 01:06:45,215 barriers right next to us. We approach a bunch of green 1255 01:06:44,940 --> 01:06:48,860 bollards that are on top of the Jersey barrier and on the first 1256 01:06:48,860 --> 01:06:57,020 four are spelled out one letter per bollard f u c k bollard 1257 01:06:57,020 --> 01:07:03,955 bollard y o u. Three more bollards, another fuck. Two more 1258 01:07:03,955 --> 01:07:05,635 bollards, another u. 1259 01:07:06,115 --> 01:07:11,155 Looking almost like they were painted while in motion. Yeah. 1260 01:07:11,955 --> 01:07:15,210 Georgia Hampton: Is like scary serial killer font also. 1261 01:07:15,290 --> 01:07:18,570 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. It's like white paint. It's all drippy. 1262 01:07:18,570 --> 01:07:19,770 It's a very Yeah. 1263 01:07:19,770 --> 01:07:20,570 Georgia Hampton: It's all lowercase. 1264 01:07:20,650 --> 01:07:23,450 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. So, yeah, driving by six miles an hour or 1265 01:07:23,450 --> 01:07:24,730 whatever it is. Fuck you. Fuck you. 1266 01:07:25,255 --> 01:07:27,175 Jason Oberholtzer: Fuck you. Very dangerous. Four words. Hate 1267 01:07:27,175 --> 01:07:29,575 everything about it. But gotta give it up to you for putting in 1268 01:07:29,575 --> 01:07:30,055 the effort. 1269 01:07:30,055 --> 01:07:31,255 So thank you, Jordan. 1270 01:07:31,415 --> 01:07:33,335 Georgia Hampton: Now, who's the Polizia? 1271 01:07:33,895 --> 01:07:34,375 Mike Rugnetta: No. 1272 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,000 Jason Oberholtzer: Alright. Before we sign off, there is one 1273 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,960 more very important thing we have possibly learned. You know, 1274 01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,200 we all know the thing that we all say at the end of every 1275 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,720 episode. Right? Do their claws find my flesh? 1276 01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:52,760 May they drown in my blood? 1277 01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:53,720 Georgia Hampton: Oh, yes. Of course. 1278 01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:57,455 Jason Oberholtzer: Well, Daniel t says the only place that they 1279 01:07:57,455 --> 01:08:01,775 can find this online is at techteesusa.com. 1280 01:08:01,775 --> 01:08:03,455 Mike Rugnetta: This website is horrible. 1281 01:08:03,455 --> 01:08:05,855 Georgia Hampton: Very American. Sounds legit. 1282 01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,680 Jason Oberholtzer: Most American of websites were in the 1283 01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:14,960 description for a t shirt that says exactly that. It says, the 1284 01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,760 should their claws find my flesh, may they drown in my 1285 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,960 blood shirt is a powerful and evocative statement of defiance. 1286 01:08:21,315 --> 01:08:24,595 This bold declaration adorns a shirt that serves as a wearable 1287 01:08:24,595 --> 01:08:27,635 symbol of courage and resistance. The words attributed 1288 01:08:27,635 --> 01:08:31,475 to legendary warrior, queen Budoka, reflect a fierce 1289 01:08:31,475 --> 01:08:34,035 determination to fight back against those who would seek to 1290 01:08:34,035 --> 01:08:38,190 harm or oppress. We have a potential candidate here for who 1291 01:08:38,190 --> 01:08:40,590 has said this phrase which we were not able to find. 1292 01:08:41,310 --> 01:08:43,950 I have looked no further than this website considering it the 1293 01:08:43,950 --> 01:08:45,790 universal source source of truth. 1294 01:08:46,430 --> 01:08:49,230 Hans Buetow: If you can find better, let us know. 1295 01:08:49,550 --> 01:08:52,725 Jason Oberholtzer: Please do. And until that time comes, all 1296 01:08:52,725 --> 01:08:53,925 together now kids. 1297 01:08:54,325 --> 01:08:58,805 Mike Rugnetta: Should claws find my flesh. May they 1298 01:08:58,965 --> 01:09:01,125 Georgia Hampton: drown in 1299 01:09:01,125 --> 01:09:06,030 Mike Rugnetta: my blood. Bye, everybody. Bye.