1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,805 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13,805 --> 00:00:15,965 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:15,965 --> 00:00:20,845 Ragnetta, and we have a lovely show for you this week. In this 4 00:00:20,845 --> 00:00:28,190 episode, Georgia returns both to and from the dating scene to 5 00:00:28,190 --> 00:00:33,390 confront a question plaguing millions of people. Is having a 6 00:00:33,390 --> 00:00:37,870 boyfriend embarrassing? She talks with Carolina Bandinelli, 7 00:00:37,870 --> 00:00:40,555 associate professor at the University of Warwick, whose 8 00:00:40,555 --> 00:00:44,235 work investigates digital technologies of love and how 9 00:00:44,235 --> 00:00:48,795 they shape cultural tropes around romance, sexuality, and 10 00:00:48,795 --> 00:00:49,675 intimacy. 11 00:00:50,315 --> 00:00:52,715 But right now, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna 12 00:00:52,715 --> 00:00:55,790 listen to some ads unless you are on the member feed. And when 13 00:00:55,790 --> 00:01:00,510 we return, Georgia finally returned from war. 14 00:01:12,855 --> 00:01:17,255 Georgia Hampton: On October 25, Vogue came out with an article 15 00:01:17,415 --> 00:01:22,055 that has become the bane of my existence. It asks a simple, 16 00:01:22,295 --> 00:01:25,690 provocative provocative question. Is having a boyfriend 17 00:01:25,690 --> 00:01:29,850 embarrassing now? And writer Shante Joseph's answer to that 18 00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:35,290 question was basically yes. The reason for this doesn't really 19 00:01:35,290 --> 00:01:38,730 have to do with being a woman with a boyfriend in the physical 20 00:01:38,385 --> 00:01:39,105 physical world. 21 00:01:39,505 --> 00:01:42,385 You can be visibly in a relationship in your offline 22 00:01:42,385 --> 00:01:47,425 life, holding hands, even kissing, and do so without the 23 00:01:47,425 --> 00:01:51,390 fear of judgment of your peers. But once you cross the digital 24 00:01:51,390 --> 00:01:55,310 threshold onto the social Internet, that's where your 25 00:01:55,310 --> 00:01:59,390 problems start. Your greatest sin comes in the form of 26 00:01:59,390 --> 00:02:03,870 posting. Gone are the days of the hard launch, where you post 27 00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:07,715 a photo of your boyfriend, his face fully visible for all to 28 00:02:07,715 --> 00:02:12,595 see. Now instead, women are softening their approach, 29 00:02:12,755 --> 00:02:16,435 posting a picture of their boyfriend's hand or his leg. 30 00:02:16,835 --> 00:02:20,755 And the soft launch comes as a result, according to this 31 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:26,470 article, of shame. A shame that is directed at you by others and 32 00:02:26,470 --> 00:02:31,350 internalized in the way you choose to post. Other women 33 00:02:31,350 --> 00:02:36,095 don't want to see the boyfriend on their feeds at all, or so 34 00:02:36,095 --> 00:02:40,575 Joseph claims. She writes, quote, there is nothing I hate 35 00:02:40,575 --> 00:02:44,895 more than following someone for fun only for their content to 36 00:02:44,895 --> 00:02:49,930 become my boyfriend ified suddenly. When a woman is too 37 00:02:49,930 --> 00:02:53,610 effusive about her partner online, it launches this 38 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:57,770 avalanche of questions and assumptions and judgments that 39 00:02:57,770 --> 00:02:59,290 all affirm each other. 40 00:02:59,850 --> 00:03:03,465 Is the boyfriend posting pictures of her on his feed? 41 00:03:03,865 --> 00:03:08,505 Probably not. Right? What does that mean? Well, it probably 42 00:03:08,505 --> 00:03:09,945 means he kind of sucks. 43 00:03:10,505 --> 00:03:15,200 And if he sucks, he's just gonna end up breaking up with her. So 44 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,560 why is she wasting her time celebrating some schmuck who's 45 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,760 just gonna ruin her life? It doesn't really matter how true 46 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,075 any of these assumptions are. What matters is the feeling 47 00:03:28,075 --> 00:03:33,195 behind them, a mix of weariness, judgment, and predestined 48 00:03:33,195 --> 00:03:38,315 failure. And if I'm being very generous, I could understand 49 00:03:38,475 --> 00:03:41,180 some part of where this thought spiral comes from. 50 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:46,780 Telling anyone, let alone everyone, about a new romance is 51 00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:52,220 very, very vulnerable. And I guess there is a world where 52 00:03:52,220 --> 00:03:56,325 this presumption of inevitable disaster is a kind of protective 53 00:03:56,325 --> 00:04:01,045 device. If you don't post, you will avoid an element of the 54 00:04:01,045 --> 00:04:05,045 misery that comes with a post breakup digital cleanse. And the 55 00:04:05,045 --> 00:04:08,790 last thing anyone wants to do after they get dumped is to have 56 00:04:08,790 --> 00:04:12,310 to scrub through and remove a bunch of posts of themselves 57 00:04:12,310 --> 00:04:16,710 with their ex, smiling at the camera with the caption, so glad 58 00:04:16,710 --> 00:04:23,915 I found my person. Posting about a partner does feel like a very 59 00:04:23,915 --> 00:04:27,755 public show of trust in the relationship, of turning back to 60 00:04:27,755 --> 00:04:30,475 them and going, you're not gonna embarrass me. 61 00:04:30,475 --> 00:04:34,635 Right? But in the perspective of a lot of the people interviewed 62 00:04:34,635 --> 00:04:39,290 for this piece, the die has already been cast. A posted 63 00:04:39,290 --> 00:04:44,650 boyfriend is just a future ex waiting to happen. This article 64 00:04:44,650 --> 00:04:49,530 was extremely popular on my side of the Internet. People seem to 65 00:04:49,530 --> 00:04:50,570 really like it. 66 00:04:51,130 --> 00:04:55,005 And maybe for some folks, the idea of just naming the disaster 67 00:04:55,005 --> 00:04:59,405 of dating men brought a kind of comfort. To throw up one's hands 68 00:04:59,405 --> 00:05:05,500 and be like, we're all screwed. But when I read, is having a 69 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:10,220 boyfriend embarrassing now, I didn't leave feeling good or 70 00:05:10,220 --> 00:05:15,260 freed or seen. I found no comfort in this article at all. 71 00:05:15,980 --> 00:05:19,205 The digital landscape that this article explored didn't seem 72 00:05:19,205 --> 00:05:22,725 like a commiserative place to approach the perils of dating. 73 00:05:23,365 --> 00:05:34,970 It felt punitive and mean and familiar. The dating scene has 74 00:05:34,970 --> 00:05:38,810 been especially bad for years, and the Internet is bursting 75 00:05:38,810 --> 00:05:43,690 with proof of it. Bad date videos, breakup videos, why, 76 00:05:43,690 --> 00:05:48,045 god, why am I still single videos. For the women who post 77 00:05:48,045 --> 00:05:53,885 and countless others who don't, dating is a miserable slog. But 78 00:05:53,885 --> 00:05:57,805 now, even if you do claw your way out of the existential 79 00:05:57,805 --> 00:06:01,660 minefield of being single, you just find yourself in another 80 00:06:01,660 --> 00:06:02,700 circle of hell. 81 00:06:03,420 --> 00:06:06,860 Relationships are the next ticking time bomb waiting to 82 00:06:06,860 --> 00:06:12,300 destroy your life. Romance is cast as a closed loop of misery, 83 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:16,875 never to be escaped from. And if you choose to do it anyway, the 84 00:06:16,875 --> 00:06:20,955 inevitable heartbreak you feel is nobody's fault but your own. 85 00:06:21,195 --> 00:06:23,995 Speaker 3: The reason why having a boyfriend is embarrassing is 86 00:06:23,995 --> 00:06:26,715 because y'all came on social media and showed us that it was. 87 00:06:26,715 --> 00:06:29,040 Georgia Hampton: If you have a man, tell him I said shut up. 88 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 4: Having a boyfriend as a girl is embarrassing because 89 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,880 the girl is embarrassing. 90 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: If everyone would have kept their low standards to 91 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,280 themselves, people wouldn't think it was embarrassing. Here, 92 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Georgia Hampton: love is a shameful act that is better 93 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:47,495 dealt with offline or not at all. But when did we get so 94 00:06:47,495 --> 00:06:52,215 embarrassed by the idea of love? Where did this mindset come 95 00:06:52,215 --> 00:06:55,255 from? Is it a new thing? 96 00:06:55,815 --> 00:06:59,570 Carolina Bandinelli: The sense of impossibility or then or the 97 00:06:59,570 --> 00:07:05,250 experience of impossibility has always been part of love, at the 98 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:13,815 center of love. But what has changed is the specific 99 00:07:14,775 --> 00:07:18,695 impossibility that is involved and that we perceive. 100 00:07:18,855 --> 00:07:20,855 Georgia Hampton: Carolina Bandinelli is an associate 101 00:07:20,855 --> 00:07:24,455 professor at the University of Warwick. Her research is 102 00:07:24,455 --> 00:07:28,360 concerned with love and sexuality in the digital age. If 103 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,880 you listen to my dating apps episode from 2024, you've heard 104 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,800 me mention her work about this exact topic. And she explained 105 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,160 to me that to better understand the modern cynicism around 106 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,855 dating and how it plays out online, we have to trace the 107 00:07:42,855 --> 00:07:47,095 history of our relationship to the idea of love and what stood 108 00:07:47,095 --> 00:07:47,975 in the way of it. 109 00:07:47,975 --> 00:07:50,775 Carolina Bandinelli: In western tradition, western canon, love 110 00:07:51,415 --> 00:07:59,520 was invented by poets, by male poets chasing fictional female 111 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,200 characters. So the first loving characters that we have are 112 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:11,120 knights fighting to save their princess or something like that. 113 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:18,235 Or poets that suffer because they are not loved back. So love 114 00:08:18,235 --> 00:08:22,635 is if not impossible, is definitely very painful and very 115 00:08:22,635 --> 00:08:27,610 difficult. Romantic love was transgressive vis a vis the 116 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:28,810 social order. 117 00:08:29,130 --> 00:08:33,690 And there is there are always obstacles. Well you can think 118 00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:37,370 about Shakespeare, right? So there is an impossibility there. 119 00:08:37,695 --> 00:08:42,415 Romeo and Juliet, they cannot love each other freely. Society 120 00:08:42,415 --> 00:08:43,855 makes it impossible. 121 00:08:44,015 --> 00:08:50,095 If it is if it is not God, then it becomes society. If it is not 122 00:08:50,095 --> 00:08:55,190 the devil, then our evil parents. For centuries really 123 00:08:55,190 --> 00:08:59,270 love was romantic love was supposed to be impossible. Then 124 00:08:59,270 --> 00:09:03,430 what was possible was marriage and reproduction and kinship 125 00:09:03,430 --> 00:09:06,310 perhaps. But definitely not romantic love. 126 00:09:06,975 --> 00:09:10,895 Georgia Hampton: You as a person could not readily expect to 127 00:09:10,895 --> 00:09:16,655 experience love. Real, passionate, romantic love unless 128 00:09:16,655 --> 00:09:21,350 you got very lucky. And that's how things stayed for centuries 129 00:09:21,830 --> 00:09:24,550 until around the nineteen sixties. 130 00:09:24,950 --> 00:09:26,710 Carolina Bandinelli: In the aftermath of the sexual 131 00:09:26,710 --> 00:09:34,285 revolution, we are left with a series of very important legal, 132 00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:40,925 social and cultural innovation that liberate individuals and 133 00:09:40,925 --> 00:09:46,330 liberate individuals desires and make possible make legally, 134 00:09:46,330 --> 00:09:51,130 practically possible to pursue one's romantic and sexual 135 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:58,890 pleasures with a diminished risk of being marginalized, 136 00:09:59,445 --> 00:10:00,645 persecuted, 137 00:10:01,045 --> 00:10:04,645 Georgia Hampton: arrested, and so on. Specifically for 138 00:10:04,645 --> 00:10:08,245 heterosexual people's romantic and sexual pleasures, it's worth 139 00:10:08,245 --> 00:10:12,245 saying. But following the sexual revolution, a shift took place 140 00:10:12,245 --> 00:10:16,900 that made the notion of agency in seeking out romance and sex 141 00:10:16,980 --> 00:10:21,300 less taboo. Roe v Wade happened. Birth control became more 142 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:22,340 readily available. 143 00:10:22,740 --> 00:10:26,180 The 1974 law that made it possible for women to have their 144 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:30,785 own credit cards, independent of their husband's permission. All 145 00:10:30,785 --> 00:10:34,545 of this and countless other events compiled to make it more 146 00:10:34,545 --> 00:10:38,785 possible than ever before to consider what you, as an 147 00:10:38,785 --> 00:10:43,060 individual, desired in your love life and to go out looking for 148 00:10:43,060 --> 00:10:43,460 it. 149 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:46,660 Carolina Bandinelli: So say as a woman, you can hook up with as 150 00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:51,220 many men as you want and, you know, without being as 151 00:10:51,220 --> 00:10:55,805 stigmatized as your mother would have been. Like, I could have 152 00:10:55,805 --> 00:10:59,085 many more men than my grandmother. And of course, they 153 00:10:59,085 --> 00:11:03,485 would call me a slut, but also kind of who cared. The freedom 154 00:11:03,485 --> 00:11:04,125 that came out of 155 00:11:04,125 --> 00:11:06,445 Georgia Hampton: the sexual revolution was a freedom of 156 00:11:06,445 --> 00:11:11,740 choice, of having infinite avenues to explore, pursue, 157 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:16,220 exit, and return to. But out of that freedom emerged a 158 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:20,105 responsibility to take advantage of all these options that are 159 00:11:20,105 --> 00:11:23,945 now available to you in, as Carolina describes it, the 160 00:11:23,945 --> 00:11:46,800 marketplace of love. I probably don't need to explain the series 161 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,045 of events that got us from this idea to dating apps. They 162 00:11:51,045 --> 00:11:54,885 basically follow the same steps as everything else that has been 163 00:11:54,885 --> 00:11:59,605 coerced, for better or worse, into a marketplace. Efficiency 164 00:11:59,605 --> 00:12:02,165 and volume become the name of the game. 165 00:12:02,565 --> 00:12:07,690 More dates, more sex, and more opportunities to do both. Dating 166 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:12,650 apps, if nothing else, are great at compiling an endless number 167 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:15,850 of people for you to choose from. It is a simple, 168 00:12:16,305 --> 00:12:21,265 streamlined way to participate in the marketplace. And here, 169 00:12:21,425 --> 00:12:25,585 your relationship to sex and romance becomes entrepreneurial. 170 00:12:26,225 --> 00:12:30,705 Romance becomes as much of a self driven imperative as going 171 00:12:30,705 --> 00:12:31,585 to the grocery store. 172 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,000 You gotta eat. You gotta date. And in order to do so, you have 173 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,400 to post to make the hinge profile and present yourself as 174 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,795 a worthy partner in whatever it is you wanna do. And in this 175 00:12:45,795 --> 00:12:50,595 framework, your romantic or sexual experiences become a 176 00:12:50,595 --> 00:12:53,235 social capital to accumulate. 177 00:12:53,395 --> 00:12:56,195 Carolina Bandinelli: Because there is an internalized sense 178 00:12:56,195 --> 00:13:02,280 of a hierarchy of value in which the access to romantic sexual 179 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:08,040 experiences depends on your sexiness, which means your 180 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,240 sexual capital. So there is a sense that you have to 181 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,335 accumulate your sexual capital, which means dressing in a 182 00:13:16,335 --> 00:13:20,175 certain way, which means, I don't know, having a haircut in 183 00:13:20,175 --> 00:13:24,495 a certain way, purchasing some accessories, behaving in a 184 00:13:24,495 --> 00:13:28,655 certain way. The implicit belief is that the more experience I 185 00:13:28,655 --> 00:13:35,820 make, I have, the more my sexual capital increase, the more the 186 00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:41,660 options I have, the better I can choose the person with whom I 187 00:13:41,660 --> 00:13:43,260 can finally spend my life with. 188 00:13:43,755 --> 00:13:47,035 Georgia Hampton: In the past, the impossibility of love was 189 00:13:47,035 --> 00:13:51,915 something you could easily tack on to external forces. Society, 190 00:13:52,155 --> 00:13:56,875 your family, even God. But from the sixties well into the twenty 191 00:13:56,875 --> 00:14:00,560 first century, the marketplace of love told a very different 192 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,680 story. Here, any difficulties around your experiences have 193 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:10,720 been placed squarely on your individual shoulders. If your 194 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,195 dating life is bad, that's your fault and your job to change it. 195 00:14:15,995 --> 00:14:21,835 And maybe that idea can feel exciting, even fun. You're in 196 00:14:21,835 --> 00:14:25,835 charge of your sexual and romantic happiness. You can do 197 00:14:25,835 --> 00:14:30,240 everything, but eventually, the shine starts to wear off the 198 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:37,120 proverbial apple. With each failed date, with each Tinder 199 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,520 message left hanging with no reply, that imperative to 200 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,625 participate starts to weigh heavier and heavier. Wasn't this 201 00:14:46,625 --> 00:14:48,225 supposed to be liberating? 202 00:14:48,945 --> 00:14:52,145 Why do I feel kind of bad? 203 00:14:52,385 --> 00:14:55,185 Carolina Bandinelli: It's the syndrome of New Year's Eve. It's 204 00:14:55,185 --> 00:14:58,680 very difficult to have fun in New Year's Eve because you are 205 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,760 supposed to have fun because if you don't have fun, maybe 206 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,960 there's something wrong with you or your friends. And the same 207 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,480 applies to sex and love. The imperative to enjoy applies to 208 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,920 the dimension of sex and love. If you don't have a good sex, if 209 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,485 you don't love well enough, maybe there's something wrong 210 00:15:14,485 --> 00:15:15,125 with you. 211 00:15:15,125 --> 00:15:19,445 So the sense of impossibility is no more related to the tragedy 212 00:15:19,765 --> 00:15:25,330 of the hero. The pain is no more the pain of the hero or the 213 00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:29,890 heroine who experienced the resistance of the world, but 214 00:15:29,890 --> 00:15:37,570 rather it is the pain of the one who's frustrated and angry and 215 00:15:37,715 --> 00:15:41,795 and sad because they haven't been good enough. 216 00:15:42,275 --> 00:15:45,315 Georgia Hampton: The shame starts to creep in. If I'm the 217 00:15:45,315 --> 00:15:48,355 sole person responsible for the success of my sexual and 218 00:15:48,355 --> 00:15:52,510 romantic experiences, then I have no one else to blame but 219 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:58,030 myself for their failures. And on my feeds, that's the 220 00:15:58,030 --> 00:16:02,590 sentiment I've been seeing everywhere. The online component 221 00:16:02,590 --> 00:16:07,025 of modern dating really lends itself to posting through your 222 00:16:07,025 --> 00:16:11,105 experiences. And not only can you share with others, but you 223 00:16:11,105 --> 00:16:14,545 can broadcast your feelings through the loudest, most far 224 00:16:14,545 --> 00:16:16,705 reaching loudspeaker possible. 225 00:16:17,185 --> 00:16:20,545 And people are miserable. 226 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 6: I've been single my entire life. My entire life. I'm 227 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,720 gonna be turning 42 in August, and I've never had anybody love 228 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,440 me or desire me or want to be with me. 229 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,765 Speaker 4: I did not think that I was gonna be alone at this 230 00:16:35,765 --> 00:16:36,165 age. 231 00:16:36,165 --> 00:16:39,525 Speaker 6: I have so much love that I feel like that is inside 232 00:16:39,525 --> 00:16:42,085 of me with nowhere to go. 233 00:16:42,085 --> 00:16:46,725 Speaker 4: I am fine, but some days I'm just, like, hyper aware 234 00:16:46,725 --> 00:16:49,760 that not that no one cares about me, but I'm, like, no one's 235 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,080 number one priority, and sometimes I just wanna feel 236 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,040 cared for. 237 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,920 Georgia Hampton: A lot of women complain about the apps, but the 238 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,160 apps aren't really the problem. The real problem that virtually 239 00:16:59,685 --> 00:17:03,205 every heterosexual woman lands on has nothing to do with 240 00:17:03,205 --> 00:17:07,845 technology. It's men. They lie. They cheat. 241 00:17:07,845 --> 00:17:13,045 They ghost. All things that are made easier by the apps. But 242 00:17:13,045 --> 00:17:16,590 something like Tinder is just a tool. And the more that women 243 00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:20,030 talk about this on social media, the more that this marketplace 244 00:17:20,030 --> 00:17:23,390 of dating, this hookup culture that we are all expected to 245 00:17:23,390 --> 00:17:29,075 participate in, starts to be shown in stark relief. Online, 246 00:17:29,075 --> 00:17:31,555 heterosexual women aren't just sad. 247 00:17:32,035 --> 00:17:37,315 They are furious about their experiences dating men, being 248 00:17:37,315 --> 00:17:40,835 disappointed by men, and by feeling like they have to prove 249 00:17:40,835 --> 00:17:44,990 their desirability to men who will just ghost them in the end 250 00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:50,110 anyway. And, of course, all this fury doesn't begin and end with 251 00:17:50,110 --> 00:17:55,870 dating. Carolina explained to me that all of this is bolstered by 252 00:17:55,870 --> 00:17:59,605 larger cultural conversations happening around men and their 253 00:17:59,605 --> 00:18:02,245 abuses toward women. Specifically, 254 00:18:02,805 --> 00:18:06,325 Carolina Bandinelli: the Me Too movement. The Me Too offered 255 00:18:06,645 --> 00:18:13,925 some tools to critic and question the heterosexual codes 256 00:18:13,925 --> 00:18:19,850 of intimacy, you know, that that in a way, they weren't really 257 00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:22,970 questioned in the mainstream. If you think about the sexual 258 00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:25,210 revolution and the feminist movement and the sexual 259 00:18:25,210 --> 00:18:31,395 revolution, they were demanding big general changes. And I think 260 00:18:31,395 --> 00:18:37,795 that the Me Too was more micro in its gaze. And so I think that 261 00:18:37,795 --> 00:18:42,995 it had the power to say, well, maybe that sense of failure, 262 00:18:42,995 --> 00:18:49,010 that sense of frustration is not entirely your fault. 263 00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:53,890 That guy that didn't call you back, that sense of abandonment, 264 00:18:53,890 --> 00:18:57,810 that sense of vulnerability that you experienced while you were 265 00:18:57,810 --> 00:19:02,935 waiting the call was not love, it was patriarchy. You know 266 00:19:02,935 --> 00:19:09,575 what? It's the actual romantic myth to be rotten and to be 267 00:19:09,655 --> 00:19:13,495 toxic and a myth indeed. 268 00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:18,210 Georgia Hampton: So now, the thing that stands in the way of 269 00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:21,970 love isn't God or your own ability to prove your 270 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:26,690 desirability. It's the patriarchy. But once we 271 00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:31,515 determine that the modern dating scene is patriarchal, what next? 272 00:19:32,075 --> 00:19:35,755 How do women date in a landscape that is working against them? 273 00:19:36,075 --> 00:19:40,395 The most popular answer to this question that I see is to opt 274 00:19:40,395 --> 00:19:42,155 out of dating men completely. 275 00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:45,850 Unpopular dating advice. Accept that you may be single for the 276 00:19:45,850 --> 00:19:46,090 rest 277 00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:48,010 Speaker 3: of your life. I've been single my whole life and 278 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:50,650 I'm slowly coming to terms with the fact that I might just be 279 00:19:50,650 --> 00:19:53,530 single for forever. And that is something I truly am okay with, 280 00:19:53,530 --> 00:19:54,010 I think. 281 00:19:54,010 --> 00:19:58,395 Speaker 7: Don't date any men, and you will have no problems, 282 00:19:58,635 --> 00:20:01,115 and you will be happier person. 283 00:20:01,515 --> 00:20:04,475 Georgia Hampton: There's a cheery fatalism here. If the 284 00:20:04,475 --> 00:20:08,155 marketplace of love offered you a freedom of endless choices, 285 00:20:09,030 --> 00:20:12,710 then this new mindset offered freedom from choosing it all. 286 00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:17,190 And Carolina explained to me that this ushered in a new kind 287 00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:22,550 of dating landscape. Some refer to it as heterofatalism or 288 00:20:22,550 --> 00:20:27,525 heteropessimism. But in our conversation, Carolina called it 289 00:20:27,525 --> 00:20:29,125 post romanticism. 290 00:20:32,405 --> 00:20:36,645 After the break, we'll explore more about what exactly post 291 00:20:36,645 --> 00:20:37,765 romanticism is. 292 00:20:59,535 --> 00:21:03,695 Carolina Bandinelli: This post romantic vibe or mood is 293 00:21:03,695 --> 00:21:10,450 characterized by sort of a loss of faith in romanticism, of a 294 00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:16,530 disbelief in romanticism or at least a performative disbelief 295 00:21:16,530 --> 00:21:22,355 in the romantic plot, which is seen not only as a myth, but 296 00:21:22,355 --> 00:21:24,675 also as a potentially danger of 297 00:21:24,675 --> 00:21:29,075 Georgia Hampton: oppressive one. Post romanticism trades the 298 00:21:29,075 --> 00:21:34,115 emotionally ruinous experience of situationships and ghosting 299 00:21:34,115 --> 00:21:39,380 and gaslighting for a completely sanitized view of dating that 300 00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:44,740 does not allow for any risk of getting hurt at all. The 301 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:48,980 simplest solution would be to never date men ever. But under 302 00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:53,135 post romanticism, you can date. You can have sex. 303 00:21:53,455 --> 00:21:57,535 You can have fun if you want to. But you do so with a kind of 304 00:21:57,535 --> 00:22:02,255 intense vigilance that borders on the hypochondriac. 305 00:22:04,255 --> 00:22:06,735 Carolina Bandinelli: And so the most important thing becomes 306 00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:12,060 mistakes. And so not to make mistakes, you have to understand 307 00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:16,860 in advance whether something can be a mistake and then hence, the 308 00:22:16,860 --> 00:22:20,460 whole red flag thing. What is the red flag? The red flag is a 309 00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:24,115 symptom that you should be able to see before. 310 00:22:24,835 --> 00:22:28,435 Georgia Hampton: So what happens if you miss a red flag and 311 00:22:28,435 --> 00:22:33,315 things don't work out? Well, it's your fault for missing it. 312 00:22:33,715 --> 00:22:38,200 You should have seen the signs. You had all the clues. And 313 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,080 shame. 314 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:48,280 Shame on you for not catching it. But the shame isn't just an 315 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,480 internalized one. Not when you're posting your boyfriend on 316 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,465 Instagram. Now with the rise and fall of your relationship on 317 00:22:55,465 --> 00:22:59,945 full display, anyone can see that you made the wrong call. 318 00:23:00,425 --> 00:23:04,665 You spent your social capital on a loser who doesn't know how to 319 00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:04,825 act. 320 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,480 You hard launched him for the world to see, only to later 321 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,560 reveal in a close friend story all the red flags that should 322 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,720 have been obvious to you from the start. And we all saw it 323 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:24,135 happen. And sure, he sucks, but he's just a man. He's expected 324 00:23:24,135 --> 00:23:29,415 to fail. You, however, you should have known better. 325 00:23:30,295 --> 00:23:33,255 Not that anyone would necessarily say that to you, 326 00:23:33,255 --> 00:23:38,790 however. The judgment here is implied, and that is because of 327 00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:43,270 articles like the Vogue piece and an abundance of content 328 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:47,905 online where strangers laugh and jeer and make fun of people you 329 00:23:47,905 --> 00:23:52,465 will never meet. In the video you're about to hear, two women 330 00:23:52,465 --> 00:23:56,145 are sitting on a couch and one is reading from her phone, while 331 00:23:56,145 --> 00:24:00,065 text on the screen explains, quote, how we are reading all 332 00:24:00,065 --> 00:24:02,065 your v day posts, by the way. 333 00:24:02,065 --> 00:24:14,810 Speaker 3: Four years of never giving up on our love. Through 334 00:24:14,810 --> 00:24:19,995 thick and thick, through the highs and lows. God knows we're 335 00:24:19,995 --> 00:24:32,740 worth it. Horrible. I would cry if my spouse said that about me. 336 00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:36,740 On Instagram too. 337 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,580 Georgia Hampton: Breakups aren't the only place where the shame 338 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:50,075 ritual resides. Active, current relationships are cannon fodder 339 00:24:50,075 --> 00:24:54,555 for the judgment of anyone with an Instagram profile. The post 340 00:24:54,555 --> 00:24:58,970 isn't just embarrassing. The boyfriend is embarrassing. From 341 00:24:58,970 --> 00:25:02,570 the perspective of the women in this video, this guy is 342 00:25:02,570 --> 00:25:06,570 embarrassing his girlfriend without even realizing it. 343 00:25:06,810 --> 00:25:11,865 He's telling on himself with the post he wrote about her. But who 344 00:25:11,865 --> 00:25:16,745 will receive the brunt of the blame for all of this? She will. 345 00:25:17,225 --> 00:25:20,345 In this digital arena of romantic shame where having a 346 00:25:20,345 --> 00:25:23,945 boyfriend is embarrassing and posting about him is even worse, 347 00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:28,700 you'd be forgiven if you decided that it would be better to just 348 00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:34,380 keep your love life completely offline. But what are we left 349 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:35,180 with then? 350 00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:39,575 A world where the sheer concept of falling in love is something 351 00:25:39,575 --> 00:25:40,775 to be ashamed of? 352 00:25:41,015 --> 00:25:43,575 Carolina Bandinelli: I think what is at stake, it's a 353 00:25:43,575 --> 00:25:48,455 reversal of the romantic idea of love. Roland Barthes in the 354 00:25:48,455 --> 00:25:53,810 fragments of a lover's discourse says that the lover, the one who 355 00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:59,890 love wants to be loved back so that to become perfect. It is 356 00:25:59,890 --> 00:26:05,675 the love I receive that makes me perfect. Whereas in the post 357 00:26:05,675 --> 00:26:11,515 romantic discourse, you have to be perfect in order to deserve 358 00:26:11,515 --> 00:26:15,595 to be loved. In fact, what does it measure against? 359 00:26:15,595 --> 00:26:19,070 And I think what it measures against, okay, it doesn't 360 00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:23,230 measure against against the fake myth of romantic love, fine, 361 00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:28,190 good. But also I think it does measure against another fake 362 00:26:28,270 --> 00:26:36,645 myth of the perfectly healthy or healed self. And it is as 363 00:26:36,645 --> 00:26:41,445 unattainable as the Romeo and Juliet kind of love. But this is 364 00:26:41,445 --> 00:26:42,645 the problem. Right? 365 00:26:47,365 --> 00:26:51,500 Georgia Hampton: I don't think there is ever a world where you 366 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,500 will dine at the table of post romanticism and leave with your 367 00:26:55,500 --> 00:27:01,260 belly full. It's a crash diet of avoidance to vulnerability, a 368 00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:05,845 commitment to your own misery and the expected misery of 369 00:27:05,845 --> 00:27:10,405 others as if it's an intellectual win. But all it 370 00:27:10,405 --> 00:27:18,410 really does is make everything so much harder for everyone. So 371 00:27:18,410 --> 00:27:22,330 no. I don't think having a boyfriend is embarrassing. 372 00:27:22,890 --> 00:27:27,690 I don't think posting about your boyfriend is embarrassing, even 373 00:27:27,690 --> 00:27:32,575 if it doesn't work out. Having a boyfriend or a partner of any 374 00:27:32,575 --> 00:27:38,735 kind who doesn't respect you or who hurts you is very painful. 375 00:27:39,695 --> 00:27:43,775 Posting can be a way to try to convince yourself those things 376 00:27:43,775 --> 00:27:48,500 aren't true. And going back and deleting those posts is its own 377 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:54,180 kind of heartbreak. But I really believe that trying to find love 378 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:59,705 and even sharing that online isn't something to be ashamed of 379 00:27:59,705 --> 00:28:03,225 because searching for companionship is a human thing 380 00:28:03,225 --> 00:28:05,305 that we all do. 381 00:28:08,505 --> 00:28:13,550 For years, I have felt like I've had to beat back post 382 00:28:13,550 --> 00:28:19,870 romanticism with a baseball bat because dating is really hard. 383 00:28:20,430 --> 00:28:25,545 Breakups are really, really hard. There are photos that used 384 00:28:25,545 --> 00:28:31,065 to be on my Instagram that you will never ever see again. I 385 00:28:31,065 --> 00:28:36,745 have enough bad stories to fill countless TikTok story times. I 386 00:28:36,745 --> 00:28:38,265 even posted through some of it. 387 00:28:38,745 --> 00:28:42,240 And you know what I learned when I did? That a lot of people I 388 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,400 knew were out there going through the same thing, trying 389 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,320 against the odds, maybe even against their better judgment, 390 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,995 to prove their inner cynic wrong. And I think about those 391 00:28:54,995 --> 00:29:00,115 posts where I was heartbroken, where I was scared, where I was 392 00:29:00,115 --> 00:29:05,955 happy with the wrong person, and I don't regret them at all. It 393 00:29:05,955 --> 00:29:13,360 wasn't a waste of my time, and I am so, so sick of so many people 394 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:41,730 pretending that it is. The conversation I had with Carolina 395 00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:47,515 Bandinelli was truly incredible and there was so much more I 396 00:29:47,515 --> 00:29:50,475 wanted to include in this piece that just didn't make the cut. 397 00:29:50,715 --> 00:29:58,075 So thank you so much to Carolina for expanding, complicating, and 398 00:29:58,075 --> 00:30:02,520 frankly validating so much of what I've seen and experienced 399 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,800 firsthand in this digital world of dating. I will include some 400 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,000 links to her work and ways to reach her down in the show 401 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,320 notes. 402 00:30:45,965 --> 00:30:48,525 Mike Rugnetta: That is the show we have for you this week. We're 403 00:30:48,525 --> 00:30:52,045 gonna be back here in the main feed on or around Thursday, 404 00:30:52,285 --> 00:30:58,300 April 30. Never Post exists only because of the generous support 405 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,020 of our members. If you would like to help support the show so 406 00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:05,500 we can keep making it now is a great time to head on over to 407 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:11,180 neverpo.st to toss us a paltry $4 a month. The first quarter of 408 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:15,795 every year, gonna be totally honest, is a bloodbath as far as 409 00:31:15,795 --> 00:31:17,395 member attrition is concerned. 410 00:31:17,395 --> 00:31:21,155 This is true not just for us, but basically all crowdfunded 411 00:31:21,155 --> 00:31:24,515 projects. But you are not currently listening to all 412 00:31:24,515 --> 00:31:27,890 crowdfunded projects. You are currently listening to your 413 00:31:27,890 --> 00:31:31,650 favorite Internet podcast, Never Post, which maybe, hopefully, 414 00:31:31,970 --> 00:31:36,290 you would like to give $4 a month. Neverpo.s t to become a 415 00:31:36,290 --> 00:31:41,455 member today. Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, 416 00:31:41,455 --> 00:31:43,935 Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name 417 00:31:43,935 --> 00:31:44,495 last name. 418 00:31:44,495 --> 00:31:47,935 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is 419 00:31:47,935 --> 00:31:51,535 Jason Oberholzer, and the show's host, that's me, is Mike 420 00:31:51,535 --> 00:31:57,740 Rugnetta. One night, we walked across town under the blown 421 00:31:57,740 --> 00:32:01,340 stars with all the damage at our backs. It does not come well 422 00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:04,220 arranged. Dark houses piled up. 423 00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:09,385 Try lust, pride, and covetousness. Try closing the 424 00:32:09,385 --> 00:32:12,985 door on that lot, domestic gardens alive with those 425 00:32:12,985 --> 00:32:18,265 animals. We saw the fox eyeing cars, staring into the moment of 426 00:32:18,265 --> 00:32:22,120 impact and then sauntering off the road to leave a fox shaped 427 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,160 hole in the air for all the traffic in the world to drive 428 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:33,895 through. Excerpt of Earth at Night by Kelvin Corcoran. Never 429 00:32:33,895 --> 00:32:37,175 Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and it's distributed 430 00:32:37,335 --> 00:32:38,535 by Radiotopia.