1 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,765 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13,765 --> 00:00:16,325 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host Mike 3 00:00:16,325 --> 00:00:21,365 Rugnetta. This intro was written on Wednesday, 01/28/2026 at 4 00:00:21,365 --> 00:00:28,540 09:47AM eastern, and we have a considered show for you today. 5 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:33,340 This episode marks the first in a change to the way that we are 6 00:00:33,340 --> 00:00:37,020 producing and releasing Neverpost, which you can hear 7 00:00:37,020 --> 00:00:42,015 more about in detail in our state of the pod upload from a 8 00:00:42,015 --> 00:00:46,495 few weeks ago. But the long and short is in this news episode, 9 00:00:46,655 --> 00:00:51,135 me, Hans, and Georgia take a look at the saga of the sale of 10 00:00:51,135 --> 00:00:52,095 TikTok. 11 00:00:52,255 --> 00:00:56,380 How over the last six years and two presidents we got to where 12 00:00:56,380 --> 00:01:03,340 we are today. And then we ask, is this really where we want to 13 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:06,620 be? But right now, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna 14 00:01:06,620 --> 00:01:09,655 listen to some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we 15 00:01:09,655 --> 00:01:11,975 return, we're gonna talk about a few of the things that have 16 00:01:11,975 --> 00:01:14,535 happened since the last time you heard from us. 17 00:01:15,015 --> 00:01:17,335 Also, you might notice that I sound a little bit different 18 00:01:17,335 --> 00:01:22,450 this episode. It's because the power in the studio is out, 19 00:01:22,610 --> 00:01:25,970 which is a fun thing to have happen when it's eight degrees 20 00:01:25,970 --> 00:01:30,690 outside. So I am recording on my mobile setup. Back to my normal 21 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:36,115 microphone and setup hopefully in the next upload. Fly me to 22 00:01:36,115 --> 00:01:38,435 the moon and let me play among the stars. 23 00:01:38,435 --> 00:01:44,915 Let me see seven stories on Jupiter and Mars. Kalshi, a New 24 00:01:44,915 --> 00:01:48,850 York based prediction market web service comparable to Polymarket 25 00:01:48,850 --> 00:01:53,570 was sued last September by Massachusetts AG Andrea Joy 26 00:01:53,570 --> 00:01:56,850 Campbell, who said the company allowed people to place bets on 27 00:01:56,850 --> 00:02:02,130 the outcomes of sporting events without being licensed to do so 28 00:02:02,370 --> 00:02:07,845 in the state. On the January 20, Campbell got a court order to 29 00:02:07,845 --> 00:02:11,365 prevent Kalshi from operating within the state, saying in a 30 00:02:11,365 --> 00:02:14,405 statement that the move is part of her, quote, ongoing efforts 31 00:02:14,405 --> 00:02:18,200 to combat the public health harms associated with sports 32 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:23,000 betting and gambling, especially among young people, end quote. 33 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,320 That court order is now on hold. Calshey claims it is 34 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,240 appropriately regulated federally and that Massachusetts 35 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:32,200 should butt out. 36 00:02:32,795 --> 00:02:36,715 Suffolk County judge Barry Smith disagrees and says the temporary 37 00:02:36,715 --> 00:02:40,355 injunction will hold but is giving both sides until February 38 00:02:40,355 --> 00:02:44,315 4 to confirm. The Boston Globe reports that if the injunction 39 00:02:44,315 --> 00:02:47,490 holds, which it seems like it will, Kulsi might be unavailable 40 00:02:47,490 --> 00:02:52,530 in Massachusetts for months or years while litigation unfolds. 41 00:02:52,690 --> 00:02:56,130 It's unclear what this means for other prediction markets like 42 00:02:56,130 --> 00:03:03,505 Polymarket. Hackers are fighting back against ICE, the 43 00:03:03,505 --> 00:03:06,785 militarized federal police force currently occupying several 44 00:03:06,785 --> 00:03:09,585 American cities, kidnapping innocent people including 45 00:03:09,585 --> 00:03:12,860 toddlers and children, and who People Magazine reports are 46 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:16,860 responsible for quote at least thirty two deaths in the last 47 00:03:16,860 --> 00:03:19,980 year. Tech Dirt reports that hackers have started to chip 48 00:03:19,980 --> 00:03:22,620 away at the extensive surveillance dragnet employed by 49 00:03:22,620 --> 00:03:26,865 ICE and the CBP to inform and manage their campaigns of state 50 00:03:26,865 --> 00:03:27,985 sponsored violence. 51 00:03:28,385 --> 00:03:31,585 The projects range from the fairly straightforward like ICE 52 00:03:31,585 --> 00:03:34,945 list wiki, which aggregates publicly available information 53 00:03:34,945 --> 00:03:38,030 about ICE and its operations, to the more technologically 54 00:03:38,030 --> 00:03:41,790 involved like apps and gadgets which allow people to track the 55 00:03:41,790 --> 00:03:44,510 presence of surveillance equipment like flock cameras, 56 00:03:44,590 --> 00:03:48,350 drones, and Ray Ban meta sunglasses. Tech Dirt is also 57 00:03:48,350 --> 00:03:53,485 currently suing the US DOJ over the removal of ice tracking apps 58 00:03:53,485 --> 00:03:56,765 from the Apple App Store, citing the possibility that the 59 00:03:56,765 --> 00:04:00,765 government engaged in, quote, unconstitutional coercion to 60 00:04:00,765 --> 00:04:03,965 restrict constitutionally protected speech documenting 61 00:04:03,965 --> 00:04:14,630 public information. France has officially banned Zoom and Teams 62 00:04:14,630 --> 00:04:17,750 for its federal workers. As part of the growing digital 63 00:04:17,750 --> 00:04:20,230 divestiture movement whereby governments and other 64 00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:24,755 institutions are seeking to move away from US based technologies, 65 00:04:24,755 --> 00:04:28,595 France has announced its plans to restrict the use of Zoom, 66 00:04:28,675 --> 00:04:32,595 Teams, Google Meet, and other American platforms for video 67 00:04:32,595 --> 00:04:35,715 conferencing, opting instead for the domestically developed 68 00:04:35,715 --> 00:04:39,450 Vizio. This comes on the heels of a previous requirement that 69 00:04:39,450 --> 00:04:43,290 French officials discontinue the use of WhatsApp and Telegram. 70 00:04:43,530 --> 00:04:47,770 Now, if we can just make it illegal for anyone in The US to 71 00:04:47,770 --> 00:04:59,115 use Teams as well, we'd really be cooking. Shopify will let you 72 00:04:59,115 --> 00:05:05,755 hawk your wares in, chat GPT, and levy an additional 4% fee 73 00:05:05,755 --> 00:05:09,230 for the pleasure. Purchases via other artificial intelligence 74 00:05:09,230 --> 00:05:12,510 services like Google's Gemini will not trigger additional 75 00:05:12,510 --> 00:05:16,910 fees, reports payments.com. This is part of a new set of features 76 00:05:16,910 --> 00:05:20,765 Shopify is calling agentic storefronts where people can 77 00:05:20,765 --> 00:05:24,605 browse, compare, ask questions about, and ultimately purchase 78 00:05:24,605 --> 00:05:29,165 items via AI chat services. Over the last year or so, massive 79 00:05:29,165 --> 00:05:33,210 payment processors like Visa and Mastercard have spilled much ink 80 00:05:33,210 --> 00:05:36,570 and spent all kinds of money forwarding the idea that the 81 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:41,130 future of payments is so called agentic commerce, where 82 00:05:41,130 --> 00:05:45,050 consumers are accompanied and aided by all manner of AI 83 00:05:45,050 --> 00:05:45,610 agents. 84 00:05:45,955 --> 00:05:49,795 In October, on the topic, consulting giant McKinsey 85 00:05:49,795 --> 00:05:53,715 described it as quote, a rethinking of shopping itself in 86 00:05:53,715 --> 00:05:56,995 which the boundaries between platforms, services, and 87 00:05:56,995 --> 00:06:01,570 experiences give way to an integrated intent driven flow 88 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:05,490 through highly personalized consumer journeys that deliver a 89 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:12,985 fast, frictionless outcome. Craig of list fame isn't going 90 00:06:12,985 --> 00:06:18,185 to be funding as much journalism anymore. Newmark most famously 91 00:06:18,185 --> 00:06:22,745 lent his surname to the eponymous j school at CUNY, but 92 00:06:22,745 --> 00:06:25,385 says that his decades of giving to support journalistic 93 00:06:25,385 --> 00:06:29,680 endeavors haven't had the impact that he hoped. Talking to Neiman 94 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,800 Lab, he says quote, I really didn't understand that audience 95 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,640 development and related marketing needed to be a really 96 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,280 big deal for everyone in journalism and didn't understand 97 00:06:41,405 --> 00:06:45,485 that very few really good journalists were aware of that. 98 00:06:45,485 --> 00:06:50,125 But I've started discussing that in maybe every engagement, end 99 00:06:50,125 --> 00:06:50,685 quote. 100 00:06:51,165 --> 00:06:54,445 Newmark explains his big question for journalistic orgs 101 00:06:54,445 --> 00:06:58,100 going forward is whether they plan to attempt growing outside 102 00:06:58,180 --> 00:07:02,500 of their very narrow base and emphasizes that it is a massive 103 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:07,380 undertaking simply keeping journalists safe in today's 104 00:07:07,380 --> 00:07:11,325 climate. He plans going forward to focus his philanthropy more 105 00:07:11,325 --> 00:07:14,925 heavily on cyber security as well as veterans and their 106 00:07:14,925 --> 00:07:20,045 families. DuckDuckGo asked and you answered. The privacy 107 00:07:20,045 --> 00:07:24,470 focused search product asked its users a simple question to vote 108 00:07:24,470 --> 00:07:32,230 for one of two options, yes AI or no AI. And 90 of respondents 109 00:07:32,230 --> 00:07:35,030 chose no AI. 110 00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:38,425 The vote seems to be a way to announce the search site's 111 00:07:38,425 --> 00:07:43,225 bifurcated approach. Votes for yes or no led to two different 112 00:07:43,225 --> 00:07:46,585 versions of the site. According to a statement by CEO Gabriel 113 00:07:46,585 --> 00:07:52,820 Weinberg, no ai.duckduckgo.com turns off search assist buttons 114 00:07:52,820 --> 00:07:57,620 to duck.ai and automatically turns on the hide AI images 115 00:07:57,620 --> 00:08:02,980 filter. While yes ai.duckduckgo.com turns search 116 00:08:02,980 --> 00:08:07,695 assist too often, features duck AI on the homepage, and turns 117 00:08:07,695 --> 00:08:12,255 off the hide AI images filter. At the time of writing, duck 118 00:08:12,255 --> 00:08:16,335 duck go has just released its first public statement about the 119 00:08:16,335 --> 00:08:19,530 result emphasizing that their approach to AI going forward 120 00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:23,610 will always be one involving choice on the part of the end 121 00:08:23,610 --> 00:08:24,250 user. 122 00:08:24,250 --> 00:08:25,290 Georgia Hampton: Thank you. 123 00:08:25,690 --> 00:08:29,290 Mike Rugnetta: And finally, TikTok is now under majority 124 00:08:29,290 --> 00:08:34,105 control by US interests. On January 22, a deal was finalized 125 00:08:34,105 --> 00:08:37,465 bringing the app previously controlled by Chinese based tech 126 00:08:37,465 --> 00:08:41,545 company, ByteDance, to American data centers and under the 127 00:08:41,545 --> 00:08:47,020 control of American business interests and to some degree or 128 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:54,300 another, maybe, the American government. After a short break, 129 00:08:54,380 --> 00:09:25,545 Hans, Georgia, and I discuss. Joining me to discuss are Never 130 00:09:25,545 --> 00:09:27,465 Post senior producer Hans Buto 131 00:09:27,785 --> 00:09:28,665 Hans Buetow: TikTok. 132 00:09:29,065 --> 00:09:31,705 Mike Rugnetta: And Never Post producer Georgia Hampton. 133 00:09:31,785 --> 00:09:33,145 Georgia Hampton: I don't know what to do. 134 00:09:35,385 --> 00:09:39,770 Mike Rugnetta: Friends friends, hello. Okay. So before we really 135 00:09:39,770 --> 00:09:42,650 get into the discussion part of this, I wanna go over the 136 00:09:42,650 --> 00:09:47,370 history of this so far, which has been fast, because it's 137 00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:50,570 been, both multiple years and multiple presidents. 138 00:09:51,015 --> 00:09:52,695 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Where do you start? Right? 139 00:09:52,695 --> 00:09:54,775 Mike Rugnetta: Where do you It turns out you start in 2020. 140 00:09:54,775 --> 00:09:55,815 Hans Buetow: Okay. Okay. Okay. 141 00:09:55,815 --> 00:09:59,815 Mike Rugnetta: So in 2020, Trump says that TikTok should be 142 00:09:59,815 --> 00:10:03,015 banned, over national security concerns that the Chinese owned 143 00:10:03,015 --> 00:10:07,540 app is a threat to American national security. ByteDance, 144 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:12,820 then its parent company, sues and wins, and then Joe Biden 145 00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:17,300 gets in off us. Right. He reverses Trump's executive 146 00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:21,755 order, and sends the issue to lawmakers who say almost the 147 00:10:21,755 --> 00:10:26,555 same thing as Trump. So congress passes a law that Biden then 148 00:10:26,555 --> 00:10:30,635 signs, which says that TikTok has to be sold to US interests 149 00:10:30,635 --> 00:10:32,555 within a certain amount of time. 150 00:10:32,555 --> 00:10:36,060 Hans Buetow: Let me see if I got this straight. Biden said, Trump 151 00:10:36,060 --> 00:10:39,820 is wrong. You don't have to sell. Congress said, no. You do. 152 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:41,740 And then Biden was like, never mind. Yeah. You do. 153 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,700 Mike Rugnetta: Biden says, we shouldn't do this with an EO. We 154 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:46,380 should do this with law. 155 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:48,300 Hans Buetow: Like, we should proper channels. We should do 156 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:49,340 Mike Rugnetta: this based on evidence. 157 00:10:49,340 --> 00:10:49,660 Georgia Hampton: Got it. 158 00:10:49,945 --> 00:10:52,425 Mike Rugnetta: And we're gonna go, and I'm gonna ask for a 159 00:10:52,425 --> 00:10:55,945 commission to look at the national security's concerns 160 00:10:55,945 --> 00:10:58,985 that are possible with this Chinese owned app, and they're 161 00:10:58,985 --> 00:11:01,545 gonna advise me and blah blah blah blah blah. And what comes 162 00:11:01,545 --> 00:11:06,050 out at the end is basically the same thing that came out, you 163 00:11:06,050 --> 00:11:09,410 know, a couple years earlier or a year or two earlier, which was 164 00:11:09,410 --> 00:11:12,610 like, yeah, it seems like this could be a problem. We should 165 00:11:12,610 --> 00:11:15,970 figure out how to solve this from a national security 166 00:11:15,970 --> 00:11:16,610 perspective. 167 00:11:16,610 --> 00:11:18,690 Hans Buetow: But with the backing of congress at this time 168 00:11:18,690 --> 00:11:19,890 instead of just Correct. 169 00:11:20,025 --> 00:11:22,265 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. We should do this with laws instead of just 170 00:11:22,265 --> 00:11:25,465 with shouting, which really just is the the only difference there 171 00:11:25,465 --> 00:11:28,425 is that there is a ostensibly a piece of paper or at least 172 00:11:28,425 --> 00:11:31,705 Hans Buetow: piece of paper. Shouting in different registers 173 00:11:31,705 --> 00:11:34,985 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. And in a very carpeted room. Right. 174 00:11:34,985 --> 00:11:36,810 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. Really, that's what it is. That's the 175 00:11:36,810 --> 00:11:37,530 difference. The idea of 176 00:11:37,530 --> 00:11:41,130 Georgia Hampton: a carpet of a rug. Yes. A carpet, lacquered 177 00:11:41,130 --> 00:11:41,690 wood. 178 00:11:41,690 --> 00:11:44,970 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. So congress passes a law that Biden 179 00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:48,730 signs, which says that TikTok has to be sold to US interests 180 00:11:48,730 --> 00:11:52,915 within a certain amount of time. ByteDance then sues again. 181 00:11:53,395 --> 00:11:53,635 Right. 182 00:11:53,635 --> 00:11:58,515 Trump gets back in office with a changed tune. He's not so 183 00:11:58,515 --> 00:12:03,155 adamant now that it needs to go. Okay. So both ByteDance and 184 00:12:03,155 --> 00:12:08,950 Trump ask the Supreme Court to delay a ruling on whether the 185 00:12:08,950 --> 00:12:13,590 law banning TikTok if it doesn't get sold is constitutional. The 186 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:14,950 Supreme Court says, uh-uh. 187 00:12:14,950 --> 00:12:19,030 We're gonna rule. They say that it is constitutional, and so 188 00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:20,265 then, as we 189 00:12:20,265 --> 00:12:22,105 Hans Buetow: all remember constitutional, like, the the 190 00:12:22,105 --> 00:12:25,145 law saying no TikTok is constitutional. 191 00:12:25,145 --> 00:12:26,825 Mike Rugnetta: Is constitutional. Yes. And that is 192 00:12:26,825 --> 00:12:29,225 why TikTok is banned for, like, sixteen hours. 193 00:12:29,225 --> 00:12:30,265 Georgia Hampton: I was gonna say 194 00:12:30,105 --> 00:12:31,465 Hans Buetow: It goes away last January. 195 00:12:31,465 --> 00:12:33,065 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. We're getting to that moment. Can I 196 00:12:33,065 --> 00:12:34,585 Hans Buetow: ask a clarifying question really quick, Mike, 197 00:12:34,730 --> 00:12:39,930 about while all this is swirling, how how are we able to 198 00:12:39,930 --> 00:12:43,050 do this about a Chinese company? Do they have an American 199 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:44,250 contingent to them? 200 00:12:44,650 --> 00:12:47,290 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I mean, there are TikTok US offices here 201 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:48,170 in New York. 202 00:12:48,625 --> 00:12:50,865 Hans Buetow: And so because of that, they're subject to 203 00:12:51,105 --> 00:12:53,185 Mike Rugnetta: Absolutely. They operate in The United States. 204 00:12:53,185 --> 00:12:56,705 They have local offices. Yeah. Like every tech company, you 205 00:12:56,705 --> 00:13:00,225 know, they are, beholden to the jurisdiction of the markets in 206 00:13:00,225 --> 00:13:01,185 which they operate. 207 00:13:01,185 --> 00:13:01,345 Hans Buetow: Totally. 208 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,760 Mike Rugnetta: You know, there's there's all kinds of regulation 209 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,480 that they need to comply with. You know, famously, California 210 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,560 has really specific regulations that they need to abide by. And, 211 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,800 you know, we'll talk about this later, but there's all this 212 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,155 concern about American data being sent overseas to the 213 00:13:20,155 --> 00:13:23,275 Chinese parent company being held in Chinese data centers, 214 00:13:23,275 --> 00:13:26,635 and TikTok US, at least, maintained for quite a while 215 00:13:26,635 --> 00:13:30,635 that if that did happen, it didn't happen to the degree that 216 00:13:30,635 --> 00:13:33,830 it would be like a national security concern. That it would 217 00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:36,550 basically just be like anonymized data for compliance 218 00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:39,430 and, like, you know, business operations and stuff. And it's 219 00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:43,510 not like we're sending every video scanned Right. 220 00:13:43,510 --> 00:13:48,575 And AI monitored over to our Chinese counterparts. So the 221 00:13:48,655 --> 00:13:48,815 Zoom 222 00:13:48,815 --> 00:13:50,575 Hans Buetow: and enhance. Zoom and enhance on everything. 223 00:13:50,575 --> 00:13:53,215 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Exactly. It's not being stored in Chinese 224 00:13:53,215 --> 00:13:56,975 data centers, right, which is like the the idea that was 225 00:13:56,975 --> 00:13:58,495 forwarded by a lot of people at the time. 226 00:13:58,740 --> 00:14:01,620 Georgia Hampton: The feeling I remember from when TikTok was 227 00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:07,300 banned for, you know, less than a day was that somehow that 228 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:10,260 would happen. Like, the threat of that was real. 229 00:14:10,995 --> 00:14:12,675 Mike Rugnetta: I mean, I think in the minds of in my 230 00:14:12,675 --> 00:14:15,635 perspective, at least, it was in the minds of some people it was. 231 00:14:17,315 --> 00:14:20,275 Yep. They're they're gonna come and get your data, which I mean, 232 00:14:20,275 --> 00:14:22,755 you know, again, we can talk about this behind a little bit, 233 00:14:22,755 --> 00:14:24,755 but, like They're spoilers. Everybody's coming to get your 234 00:14:24,755 --> 00:14:25,395 data, honey. 235 00:14:25,395 --> 00:14:29,350 Georgia Hampton: I was gonna say, I Sweet child. Going to be. 236 00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:31,990 Mike Rugnetta: They're all coming for it. Everyone wants 237 00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:36,710 it. Yep. So, anyways, so TikTok is banned for a very short 238 00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:40,375 amount of time. Trump then signs another executive order saying 239 00:14:40,375 --> 00:14:45,335 that the law should not be enforced and the app returns. 240 00:14:45,975 --> 00:14:49,735 And at the time, I had posted something like, it will be funny 241 00:14:49,735 --> 00:14:54,500 to look back on this in four years and see how the total 242 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:59,540 dissolution of law in The United States began with an executive 243 00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:05,235 order unbanning a popular video app. Mhmm. And well Well 244 00:15:05,475 --> 00:15:06,755 Hans Buetow: and here we are. 245 00:15:06,755 --> 00:15:07,795 Georgia Hampton: Here we are. 246 00:15:07,795 --> 00:15:12,195 Mike Rugnetta: So after several extensions to the requirement 247 00:15:12,195 --> 00:15:16,435 for the sale, a sale is brokered between ByteDance, who will 248 00:15:16,435 --> 00:15:21,520 retain a 20% stake in the American offshoot of this 249 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:22,560 Chinese social media 250 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:23,280 Hans Buetow: app Okay. 251 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,400 Mike Rugnetta: With tech giant Oracle, who is helmed by the 252 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,880 Trump friendly CEO Larry Ellison, who is himself father 253 00:15:33,095 --> 00:15:37,655 to the Paramount Skydance and CBS owner David Ellison. 254 00:15:37,655 --> 00:15:39,335 Hans Buetow: Perfect. Cool. No notes. 255 00:15:39,335 --> 00:15:42,695 Mike Rugnetta: No notes. Private equity group Silver Lake, who 256 00:15:42,695 --> 00:15:46,615 have made investments in Mhmm. Get ready. Okay. Electronic 257 00:15:46,615 --> 00:15:46,935 Arts. 258 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:50,970 Yep. Airbnb. Yep. Oh. Waymo. 259 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:58,330 Dell. What? Skype. Woah. And Klarna. 260 00:15:58,730 --> 00:15:59,690 Hans Buetow: Am now laying on 261 00:15:59,690 --> 00:16:00,410 Mike Rugnetta: the ground. 262 00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:03,425 Georgia Hampton: Not Klarna. 263 00:16:04,945 --> 00:16:09,505 Mike Rugnetta: And Abu Dhabi based investment firm MGX who 264 00:16:09,505 --> 00:16:14,785 focuses entirely on artificial intelligence technologies. So, 265 00:16:14,785 --> 00:16:20,410 like, they are partnering with NVIDIA and OpenAI and, like, all 266 00:16:20,410 --> 00:16:22,170 of the people you would expect to be on that list. 267 00:16:22,170 --> 00:16:24,330 Georgia Hampton: Stream blunt rotation. Am I right? 268 00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:29,050 Hans Buetow: Dys dystopic cyberpunk blunt rotation. God. 269 00:16:30,585 --> 00:16:32,665 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. All that's missing is can we get Peter 270 00:16:32,665 --> 00:16:34,265 Thiel in here somehow? Literally. 271 00:16:34,265 --> 00:16:35,545 Hans Buetow: If only. 272 00:16:35,785 --> 00:16:38,585 Mike Rugnetta: Each firm is gonna hold a 15% stake in 273 00:16:38,585 --> 00:16:43,225 TikTok. The LLC, which has been formed to operate the platform, 274 00:16:43,225 --> 00:16:51,230 is called TikTok USDS Joint Ventures LLC. USDS standing for 275 00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:54,590 the United States Digital Service, which is the 276 00:16:54,590 --> 00:16:55,390 traditional name 277 00:16:55,550 --> 00:16:56,670 Hans Buetow: Oh, no. For what 278 00:16:56,670 --> 00:17:02,545 Mike Rugnetta: has more recently been known as Doge. Good lord. 279 00:17:02,625 --> 00:17:05,825 So all of those investors, anybody who is operating the 280 00:17:05,825 --> 00:17:08,945 platform, which is primarily gonna be Oracle and various 281 00:17:08,945 --> 00:17:12,465 other, you know, entities, they're all operating under this 282 00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:18,980 TikTok USDS joint ventures LLC. So I mean, my first question 283 00:17:18,980 --> 00:17:21,540 that I have written down here is one that I feel like we already 284 00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:25,540 know the answer to, which is, you know, how do we just feel 285 00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:31,025 generally about this about this outcome of things? How does this 286 00:17:31,025 --> 00:17:35,825 group of people make us feel in comparison to say, like, Mark 287 00:17:35,825 --> 00:17:40,865 Zuckerberg and Meta or, you know, Elon Musk and X? 288 00:17:42,330 --> 00:17:46,490 Just the the various other people who helm all of the 289 00:17:46,490 --> 00:17:50,410 social media networks that we use every single day. Like, do 290 00:17:50,410 --> 00:17:52,970 we feel like this group is better? Is this group worse? Is 291 00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:55,850 this group the same? How do we how do you feel? 292 00:17:56,595 --> 00:18:00,195 Hans Buetow: I feel like this group is more directly connected 293 00:18:00,755 --> 00:18:07,155 to existing media infrastructure in a way that makes me nervous. 294 00:18:07,475 --> 00:18:14,280 So the fact that they also that they are cousins with CBS News, 295 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,000 with Barry Weiss's Free Press, with, like, all the stuff that 296 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,375 we're watching happen there, we already know what their 297 00:18:22,375 --> 00:18:25,015 priorities are. We already know what their ethics are. We 298 00:18:25,015 --> 00:18:28,135 already know what their journalistic integrity is. We 299 00:18:28,135 --> 00:18:30,215 already know what their sense of privacy is. 300 00:18:30,455 --> 00:18:32,855 That all just becomes transferred in. Right? 301 00:18:32,855 --> 00:18:37,780 Georgia Hampton: Oh, yeah. It is a very terrifying thing to 302 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:41,860 behold in a very different way. Because with, Mike, the examples 303 00:18:41,860 --> 00:18:47,220 you gave of Mark Zuckerberg and Meta or Elon Musk and X, you 304 00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:51,725 have this sort of mad king situation. But there is 305 00:18:51,725 --> 00:18:56,605 something uniquely chilling about how structured and 306 00:18:56,605 --> 00:19:04,925 organizational this is, where there isn't some guy who's 307 00:19:04,540 --> 00:19:05,500 running amok. 308 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:09,740 Mike Rugnetta: Sure. Like, Elon Musk is like a piece of shit and 309 00:19:09,820 --> 00:19:13,580 not good at running a company very clearly. Still very, very, 310 00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:15,020 very, very, very dangerous 311 00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:15,660 Georgia Hampton: Yes. 312 00:19:15,660 --> 00:19:18,295 Mike Rugnetta: But is but is a bit of a clown. People like 313 00:19:18,295 --> 00:19:22,135 Larry and David Ellison appear to be very good and practiced at 314 00:19:22,135 --> 00:19:23,335 making the world worse. 315 00:19:23,415 --> 00:19:26,535 Hans Buetow: Mhmm. But are they better in this particular 316 00:19:26,535 --> 00:19:30,695 instance? Part of what made TikTok glorious was the careful 317 00:19:30,695 --> 00:19:35,620 refinement of the FYP and the algorithm and maintaining the 318 00:19:35,620 --> 00:19:40,260 algorithm in a certain way, which if there's pressure being 319 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:42,820 put by these people who, yes, know how to make the structural 320 00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:46,345 changes, they know like, oh, we wanna highlight this or de 321 00:19:46,345 --> 00:19:48,985 highlight that or de emphasize this or like if they wanna make 322 00:19:48,985 --> 00:19:52,425 changes, when you start putting those sort of external pressures 323 00:19:52,425 --> 00:19:57,880 into the tenderness of a delicate little algorithm, is 324 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,200 what they're able to be good at translatable into an algorithm 325 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,560 that makes it work. 326 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,600 Mike Rugnetta: So they have said I have seen two what feel to me 327 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,215 like conflicting reports, which is, hey, if you're a TikTok user 328 00:20:11,215 --> 00:20:14,255 and you like the algorithm, don't worry. The TikTok 329 00:20:14,255 --> 00:20:17,615 algorithm is is not going anywhere. It's Okay. It you're 330 00:20:17,615 --> 00:20:21,455 gonna get the same, like, service that you expect. You're 331 00:20:21,455 --> 00:20:25,210 gonna get a feed that's tailored to your interests, etcetera, 332 00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:26,010 etcetera, etcetera. 333 00:20:26,170 --> 00:20:29,050 But then I've also seen we're gonna be retraining the 334 00:20:29,050 --> 00:20:33,130 algorithm specifically for US audiences. It is our job now to 335 00:20:33,130 --> 00:20:36,250 maintain. Yeah. You know, it is a domestic operation, so we're 336 00:20:36,250 --> 00:20:39,825 not relying on Chinese artificial intelligence. You 337 00:20:39,825 --> 00:20:42,625 know, that was the security concern to begin with. 338 00:20:42,625 --> 00:20:45,665 So it's all domestic now, and we're gonna retrain everything 339 00:20:45,665 --> 00:20:50,210 and, like, here we go. Don't worry. I can see how those two 340 00:20:50,530 --> 00:20:54,450 if you're, like, inside it, those two things seem do not 341 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,650 seem like they contradict one another. Right. To me, they very 342 00:20:57,650 --> 00:20:59,250 much do contradict one another. 343 00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:00,290 Absolutely. Oh, 344 00:21:00,290 --> 00:21:03,810 Georgia Hampton: I mean, the word tailoring is doing a lot of 345 00:21:04,465 --> 00:21:08,065 smoothing over here of, cool. Yeah. No. For sure. For sure. 346 00:21:08,065 --> 00:21:09,105 What does that mean? 347 00:21:09,105 --> 00:21:11,265 Mike Rugnetta: You know, all those those, beautiful Chinese 348 00:21:11,265 --> 00:21:13,585 folk songs you've been seeing for the last year, people do 349 00:21:13,585 --> 00:21:16,065 covers of? Those are gone. Those are gonna go gone. Gone. I hope 350 00:21:16,065 --> 00:21:17,265 you don't like those because Yeah. 351 00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:21,900 I think to a certain degree, people want to imagine that 352 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:26,300 software is serving them. Or like software lives in two kind 353 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:29,660 of modes. Right? You have the mode where the software is 354 00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:32,065 serving you, and you go to it because it gives you things that 355 00:21:32,065 --> 00:21:34,385 you can't get elsewhere. I'm never leaving this app. 356 00:21:34,385 --> 00:21:38,065 I built this FYP brick by brick, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. Or 357 00:21:38,065 --> 00:21:41,745 it's working against you. Right? The adpocalypse, the algorithm 358 00:21:41,745 --> 00:21:45,105 can't, you know, nobody's seeing my videos, blah blah blah blah 359 00:21:45,105 --> 00:21:45,345 blah. 360 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,180 And I think the important thing that we didn't talk about just 361 00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:50,740 now as far as the group of people is the connection to 362 00:21:50,740 --> 00:21:55,140 USDS, which is huge. Right? That is an explicit connection to the 363 00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:56,420 United States government. 364 00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:57,060 Hans Buetow: Yeah. 365 00:21:57,060 --> 00:21:59,380 Mike Rugnetta: Right? Mhmm. Which is important because so on 366 00:21:59,380 --> 00:22:05,495 January 22, the TikTok USDS joint venture LLC releases a 367 00:22:05,495 --> 00:22:09,255 statement that says, amongst other things, this is their, 368 00:22:09,255 --> 00:22:11,095 hey. Get ready. Things are about to change. 369 00:22:11,255 --> 00:22:14,695 Okay. They say US data will be protected by USDS joint ventures 370 00:22:14,695 --> 00:22:18,170 in Oracle's secure US cloud environment. The joint venture 371 00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:20,970 will operate a comprehensive data privacy and cybersecurity 372 00:22:20,970 --> 00:22:24,010 program that is audited and certified by third party 373 00:22:24,010 --> 00:22:28,010 cybersecurity experts. The program will adhere to major 374 00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:30,465 industry standards, including the National Institute of 375 00:22:30,465 --> 00:22:33,665 Standards and Technology, blah blah blah, like all these ISOs, 376 00:22:33,905 --> 00:22:36,865 cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency security 377 00:22:36,865 --> 00:22:39,505 requirements for restricted transactions. The joint venture 378 00:22:39,505 --> 00:22:42,625 will retain, test, and update content recommendation algorithm 379 00:22:42,625 --> 00:22:43,905 on US user data. 380 00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:46,630 The content recommendation algorithm will be secured in 381 00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:51,030 Oracle's US cloud environment. The joint venture will secure US 382 00:22:51,030 --> 00:22:53,830 apps through software assurance protocols and review and 383 00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:56,790 validate source code on an ongoing basis, assisted by its 384 00:22:56,790 --> 00:23:01,545 trusted security partner, Oracle. Right? And then people 385 00:23:01,545 --> 00:23:05,545 start trying to upload videos about ICE, which, of course, 386 00:23:05,545 --> 00:23:08,665 they are because that's what's happening in the moment. Yeah. 387 00:23:08,665 --> 00:23:13,145 It the biggest story that is happening in The United States 388 00:23:13,145 --> 00:23:17,840 right now. And, I mean, you know, if it is to be believed, 389 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,400 based upon what I've read online, in other parts of the 390 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,840 world as well, that, like, people in Australia and Spain 391 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,800 and Germany are looking at what's happening in your 392 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,160 backyard, Hans. 393 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:28,400 Hans Buetow: Yep. 394 00:23:28,565 --> 00:23:29,605 Mike Rugnetta: Literally. It's like 395 00:23:29,685 --> 00:23:29,925 Hans Buetow: Yeah. 396 00:23:30,005 --> 00:23:32,245 Mike Rugnetta: They are like, it's what people are talking 397 00:23:32,245 --> 00:23:32,725 about. 398 00:23:32,885 --> 00:23:33,445 Hans Buetow: Yeah. 399 00:23:33,525 --> 00:23:36,965 Mike Rugnetta: And they can't upload those videos. Or they're 400 00:23:36,965 --> 00:23:40,005 uploading them and they're being held for review. 401 00:23:40,005 --> 00:23:40,485 Georgia Hampton: Yes. 402 00:23:40,485 --> 00:23:43,230 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Or they're uploading them. They're being 403 00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:46,750 published, but then they're getting zero views. Yes. Or 404 00:23:46,750 --> 00:23:49,630 they're getting zero views and people can't comment on them. 405 00:23:49,790 --> 00:23:57,465 Yeah. So, of course, people look at the new group of owners Yep. 406 00:23:57,545 --> 00:24:01,465 The TikTok USDS joint venture LLC 407 00:24:01,785 --> 00:24:02,185 Hans Buetow: Yep. 408 00:24:02,265 --> 00:24:05,625 Mike Rugnetta: And they think, here it is, the new TikTok. The 409 00:24:05,625 --> 00:24:08,700 United States government is censoring me. Georgia, I think 410 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:10,460 you are the most on TikTok 411 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:11,180 Georgia Hampton: of Yeah. 412 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:14,060 Mike Rugnetta: The three of us. Yes. I'm curious, like, what 413 00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:17,900 your sense of this is from being on the app. 414 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:22,795 Georgia Hampton: So there's real precedence for this concern. Say 415 00:24:22,795 --> 00:24:27,355 what you want about really sanitized terms like unalive and 416 00:24:27,835 --> 00:24:30,235 pew pew for gun and stuff like that. 417 00:24:30,235 --> 00:24:30,635 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. 418 00:24:30,635 --> 00:24:32,875 Georgia Hampton: A community around this sort of language 419 00:24:32,875 --> 00:24:41,010 developed on on TikTok because of very real issues with 420 00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:44,610 censorship that do genuinely exist on TikTok. Like, I have I 421 00:24:44,610 --> 00:24:48,850 have tested this where, like, I've tried typing out trans in a 422 00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:53,085 comment, and it would, like, publish my comment with, like, 423 00:24:53,085 --> 00:24:56,205 the trans flag. I would put the trans flag in a comment, and it 424 00:24:56,205 --> 00:24:59,565 would just publish it with, like, a question mark, which 425 00:24:59,725 --> 00:25:07,040 there is precedence for this concern of where is the app 426 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:11,920 controlling what I see? I think it all comes back to the 427 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,440 algorithm and how fine tuned it is, that it's so fine tuned that 428 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:21,085 there's this feeling that it's not just providing, it is 429 00:25:21,085 --> 00:25:21,885 controlling. 430 00:25:21,885 --> 00:25:24,765 Hans Buetow: Yeah. I think this is where these sorts of things 431 00:25:24,765 --> 00:25:27,165 always algorithms get us into trouble, like the black box 432 00:25:27,165 --> 00:25:29,565 algorithms get us into trouble every single time. Because we 433 00:25:29,565 --> 00:25:32,445 know so little about them, we have to 434 00:25:32,940 --> 00:25:34,300 Mike Rugnetta: all you can do is imagine it. 435 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:36,780 Hans Buetow: Yeah. You just suppose you can and then, like, 436 00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:39,580 supposing very quickly goes into conspiracy theories. When you 437 00:25:39,580 --> 00:25:41,740 start adding up things like like, was reading about the 438 00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:45,660 number of outages that have been reported and how many how how 439 00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:48,595 many people have had trouble actually even loading it in the 440 00:25:48,595 --> 00:25:52,275 first place. The way that they describe it is that there's 441 00:25:52,275 --> 00:25:55,235 problems with a data center power outage. 442 00:25:55,235 --> 00:25:56,435 Mike Rugnetta: This is what TikTok has said. 443 00:25:56,435 --> 00:25:58,275 Hans Buetow: Yeah. This is what TikTok has said. 444 00:25:58,275 --> 00:26:00,700 Mike Rugnetta: Yes. So, I mean, it's yeah. I've seen the same 445 00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:03,980 thing. Like, I see people on Blue Sky. I see people on 446 00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:04,540 Instagram. 447 00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:07,180 Right? People are taking to other social media networks to 448 00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:11,900 say, like, for the last four days at time of recording, I 449 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:16,095 have had all of these problems. And it really it feels like, the 450 00:26:16,095 --> 00:26:17,295 comedian Megan Stalter 451 00:26:17,295 --> 00:26:19,695 Georgia Hampton: is the one who I was about to suggest. Georgia, 452 00:26:19,695 --> 00:26:22,495 tell us about what it is that happened. Meg Stalter is a 453 00:26:22,495 --> 00:26:29,150 comedian, and she posted on Instagram this whole carousel of 454 00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:33,710 herself, basically saying, I have been trying to upload 455 00:26:33,710 --> 00:26:38,925 videos about ICE, and every single time they get taken down 456 00:26:38,925 --> 00:26:42,045 or nobody's able to see them or they're under review forever, 457 00:26:42,045 --> 00:26:45,565 there's some issue that makes it so that no one ever sees them, 458 00:26:45,885 --> 00:26:50,550 including, in her own words, when she's tried to mask them as 459 00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:53,270 like a comedy video or something. So not even showing, 460 00:26:53,270 --> 00:26:57,750 like, visuals of something, just talking, that it's always being 461 00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:59,670 flagged. It's always being taken down. 462 00:26:59,670 --> 00:27:01,350 It's never being published. 463 00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:03,590 Mike Rugnetta: The implication being that, like, someone is 464 00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:05,190 manually reviewing these. 465 00:27:05,695 --> 00:27:10,335 Georgia Hampton: Yes. Or that they have this software in place 466 00:27:10,575 --> 00:27:13,375 Yeah. That just can flag Some sort of 467 00:27:13,375 --> 00:27:16,255 Mike Rugnetta: volunteer level, like, we Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:27:16,335 --> 00:27:17,375 Hans Buetow: Exactly. Exactly. 469 00:27:17,375 --> 00:27:20,190 Georgia Hampton: So she basically said, you know, I am 470 00:27:20,190 --> 00:27:23,230 downloading all of my videos from TikTok. I'm gonna start 471 00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:27,150 sharing them on here, which is Instagram, urging all of her 472 00:27:27,150 --> 00:27:30,910 followers to delete the app, delete their account, because 473 00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:33,545 she that's what she's doing. She's removing herself 474 00:27:33,545 --> 00:27:37,785 completely, taking everything off, deleting her existence on 475 00:27:37,785 --> 00:27:40,665 TikTok because of this. And alongside this, people 476 00:27:40,665 --> 00:27:43,065 Mike Rugnetta: are also noting they're, like, going now to the 477 00:27:43,065 --> 00:27:47,650 terms of service and noting the, like, draconian, you know, like, 478 00:27:47,650 --> 00:27:49,730 data data sharing location 479 00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:51,890 Hans Buetow: not sharing. For me. It's auto popped up. Right? 480 00:27:51,890 --> 00:27:53,730 Mike Rugnetta: Well, it's an agreement with a new entity. 481 00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:55,410 Hans Buetow: With a new entity. Exactly right. 482 00:27:55,410 --> 00:27:58,370 Mike Rugnetta: And so people people are now reading it in 483 00:27:58,370 --> 00:28:01,925 this new context and and are getting scared by it or getting 484 00:28:01,925 --> 00:28:05,045 upset by it. I think even Gavin Newsom is like, we're gonna look 485 00:28:05,045 --> 00:28:06,965 at this. Like, who knows what's going on here? 486 00:28:07,205 --> 00:28:09,045 Hans Buetow: Which is wild thing for the governor of California 487 00:28:09,045 --> 00:28:09,605 to say. 488 00:28:09,605 --> 00:28:12,165 Mike Rugnetta: The truth of it being, it's what it was before 489 00:28:12,165 --> 00:28:13,900 as well. It's the same. It is. It's the same. 490 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,420 Hans Buetow: Words in there, but it's it's really basically the 491 00:28:17,420 --> 00:28:17,900 same. 492 00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:21,660 Mike Rugnetta: So I think for me, this is really the story. 493 00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:21,980 Hans Buetow: Yes. 494 00:28:21,980 --> 00:28:23,580 Mike Rugnetta: There was a massive technical changeover 495 00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:26,635 after which there were technical difficulties. Yep. We have a 496 00:28:26,635 --> 00:28:29,275 bunch of people who notice these things, a bunch of popular 497 00:28:29,275 --> 00:28:32,555 people who notice these things, and then draw, I think, a fair 498 00:28:32,555 --> 00:28:36,475 conclusion given the actors involved in the transfer. 499 00:28:36,635 --> 00:28:40,635 Completely. And then people who whose attention has been drawn 500 00:28:40,635 --> 00:28:44,980 now to a terms of service that has always been bad, but maybe 501 00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:48,900 now feels worse in that the actors are domestic and 502 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:53,780 associated with a fascistic invading force on Yes. 503 00:28:53,860 --> 00:29:00,315 United States soil, and they're newly suspicious of this app 504 00:29:00,315 --> 00:29:04,155 that has, you know, colonized a lot of their time over the last 505 00:29:04,155 --> 00:29:07,995 several years. You know, like, was looking at Rusty Foster, who 506 00:29:07,995 --> 00:29:11,435 writes Today in Tabs, said that he's seeing all of these things 507 00:29:11,435 --> 00:29:15,680 as well, while, in fact, TikTok is the only place that he's 508 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,400 seeing people openly call for violence against ICE and the 509 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,560 CBP. Yeah. He said, if anyone still believes the rumors that 510 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,375 TikTok is being censored, my whole FYP is anti ICE right now, 511 00:29:28,375 --> 00:29:32,295 almost without exception. People are performing panic for clout. 512 00:29:32,455 --> 00:29:34,855 At the moment, TikTok is the only social media where I'm 513 00:29:34,855 --> 00:29:38,215 seeing regular people openly and vigorously advocate for the 514 00:29:38,215 --> 00:29:42,120 assassination of federal agents, in fact. Yeah. True. And I think 515 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,600 I think that this is the story. This is there's like the 516 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,880 strength of this I don't know at this point if it's even 517 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,560 algorithmic imaginary. 518 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,560 It's almost like platform imaginary. The idea of what the 519 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,655 platform is for and what it does even outside of its content 520 00:29:58,655 --> 00:30:02,975 service algorithm that, like, people are now imagining it as 521 00:30:03,295 --> 00:30:05,295 an extension of the United States government. 522 00:30:05,775 --> 00:30:07,775 Georgia Hampton: I haven't gone on TikTok since this change 523 00:30:07,775 --> 00:30:10,415 happened. I wanted to give myself a break and also to kind 524 00:30:10,415 --> 00:30:14,310 of think about this and be like, do I wanna participate in this? 525 00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:21,110 I am not surprised to hear that there's a much more direct, very 526 00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:24,550 explicit conversation. Because in the midst of the unaliving 527 00:30:24,550 --> 00:30:29,235 language and things like that, there is also just very flat out 528 00:30:30,035 --> 00:30:34,515 face to face feeling addressing of current events and 529 00:30:34,515 --> 00:30:37,715 documentation of current events that I don't see on something 530 00:30:37,715 --> 00:30:40,035 like Instagram ever. Ever ever ever. 531 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,360 Hans Buetow: I think the timing of this is also wild. 532 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,320 Georgia Hampton: Yes. Yes. 533 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:50,640 Hans Buetow: I have never seen this level of widespread openly 534 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,935 voiced distrust of anything the government says. The New York 535 00:30:55,935 --> 00:30:58,015 Times is starting to call them liars. Like, the New 536 00:30:58,015 --> 00:30:59,855 Mike Rugnetta: York Times. That that is 537 00:30:59,855 --> 00:31:01,695 Georgia Hampton: nuts. It's nuts. 538 00:31:01,775 --> 00:31:04,735 Hans Buetow: It's nuts. You have, like, Laura Ingraham is 539 00:31:04,735 --> 00:31:10,900 turning on Kristi Noem. Like, over the past weekend, you have 540 00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:17,140 have seen maybe the limits of what it is that we're willing to 541 00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:22,955 put up with without calling it direct lies. And I think being 542 00:31:22,955 --> 00:31:26,475 here in Minnesota, you know, there was a I looked at my 543 00:31:26,475 --> 00:31:28,715 podcast feed. This is maybe a week or so ago. 544 00:31:28,715 --> 00:31:31,995 So after Renee Good was killed, but before Alex Preti was 545 00:31:31,995 --> 00:31:35,755 killed. And I think Fresh Air had the title of one of their 546 00:31:35,755 --> 00:31:39,480 episodes was, is what ICE is doing illegal? And I was like, 547 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:40,520 Mike Rugnetta: oh, bloody. 548 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,360 Hans Buetow: Girl. We're so past that. Who cares 549 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:45,800 Mike Rugnetta: at this point? Hey, guys. 550 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,800 Georgia Hampton: Who cares? You got other stuff going on. 551 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,640 Hans Buetow: That's not the point. Right? Like, these 552 00:31:51,845 --> 00:31:55,285 statements come out and, like, there's so much the government 553 00:31:55,285 --> 00:31:58,725 has so little credibility, I think, on the ground here, at 554 00:31:58,725 --> 00:32:03,365 least in Minnesota, that it's a wild time to launch something 555 00:32:03,365 --> 00:32:09,630 and put the former name of a government group into the name 556 00:32:09,630 --> 00:32:13,310 of the company that's organizing it and expect to have anything 557 00:32:13,310 --> 00:32:14,670 you say be believed. 558 00:32:14,670 --> 00:32:17,790 Georgia Hampton: Well, and also, a very understandable reaction 559 00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:23,205 to that is, okay. You're gonna be watching all of us. Yeah. So, 560 00:32:23,205 --> 00:32:28,885 of course, anyone who is on an app that then opens the app and 561 00:32:28,885 --> 00:32:31,205 there's a little dialogue box that's like, hey. You can't use 562 00:32:31,205 --> 00:32:33,605 this until you agree to our terms of service, which include 563 00:32:33,605 --> 00:32:34,885 that we are data tracking you. 564 00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,220 Mike Rugnetta: And also, the premise of our entire app is 565 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:41,020 that it's full of artificial intelligence and tracking what 566 00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:41,500 you do. 567 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,300 Hans Buetow: Yes. And that the US government is in the name of 568 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:45,900 the company that owns it? 569 00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:48,655 Georgia Hampton: And, yeah, the app that already has had people 570 00:32:48,655 --> 00:32:51,135 have to completely change the way they talk about things out 571 00:32:51,135 --> 00:32:55,295 of fear of I I've seen people on Instagram being, like, I don't 572 00:32:55,295 --> 00:32:58,175 wanna talk about this because the last time I've talked about 573 00:32:58,175 --> 00:33:00,895 this, I weirdly had a day where I was at the airport and they 574 00:33:00,895 --> 00:33:04,100 pulled me and, like, ripped apart my suitcase. And I don't 575 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,740 like those two things being together, and I don't know if 576 00:33:06,740 --> 00:33:09,460 that was real, but I don't know if it wasn't real. Like, there's 577 00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:14,180 just this fear that I think is very real. How could anyone see 578 00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:17,275 what's going on with TikTok and not be like, what the fuck is 579 00:33:17,275 --> 00:33:17,995 happening? 580 00:33:18,315 --> 00:33:21,835 Mike Rugnetta: I think that this these two things, the fact that, 581 00:33:21,835 --> 00:33:26,715 like, you know, NPR is asking, like, is what ICE is doing 582 00:33:26,715 --> 00:33:32,550 illegal? And Oh, god. And then people worrying that what before 583 00:33:32,550 --> 00:33:37,430 this point would have been maybe innocuous if somewhat 584 00:33:38,390 --> 00:33:43,785 politically afield actions taken online could get them in some 585 00:33:43,785 --> 00:33:47,785 sort of trouble. Both of those things are are two sides of an 586 00:33:47,785 --> 00:33:51,785 old anarchist saying, which is the only thing that makes 587 00:33:51,785 --> 00:33:53,545 criminals is laws. Yep. 588 00:33:53,545 --> 00:33:56,630 And that works both ways. If there's no law to stop you from 589 00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:58,870 what you're doing, you might be doing something that is morally 590 00:33:58,870 --> 00:34:00,630 reprehensible, but it's you're not 591 00:34:00,630 --> 00:34:02,070 Hans Buetow: a criminal. It's not a criminal. Mhmm. 592 00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:05,110 Mike Rugnetta: If you're doing something that is, morally just, 593 00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:08,855 that is pro social, that is communitarian, If there's a law 594 00:34:08,855 --> 00:34:11,575 that says that you can't do it, then you're a criminal. You have 595 00:34:11,575 --> 00:34:13,975 been already a criminal. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 596 00:34:13,975 --> 00:34:21,735 And this administration wants to put that idea to use in as many 597 00:34:21,735 --> 00:34:25,350 places as they can and in as many ways as it seems like they 598 00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:29,590 can. So this gets me to, I think, the, like, last and the 599 00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:34,470 big question that I wanna ask, which is maybe it's always been 600 00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:38,310 the time, but is now really the time to ditch TikTok? 601 00:34:39,145 --> 00:34:43,225 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I I don't I don't know. I mean, the easy 602 00:34:43,225 --> 00:34:45,785 answer, I think, is, yeah. Of course. Everyone get out of 603 00:34:45,785 --> 00:34:46,185 there. 604 00:34:46,185 --> 00:34:53,590 But, like, as a journalist, a part of me wants to be there and 605 00:34:53,590 --> 00:35:00,230 see what's happening. I use it constantly for the work I do on 606 00:35:00,230 --> 00:35:04,710 this show. Obviously, I am out of the three of us, the person 607 00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:11,525 who's been on the app the most and uses it the most. And I 608 00:35:11,525 --> 00:35:14,085 don't know how to feel, frankly, right now. 609 00:35:14,805 --> 00:35:18,085 Mike Rugnetta: Maybe what you're saying, Georgia, is like, keep 610 00:35:18,085 --> 00:35:21,205 using TikTok if you feel like you have to or if you really 611 00:35:21,205 --> 00:35:26,010 enjoy it, but do it knowing the context you're in and maybe with 612 00:35:26,010 --> 00:35:30,250 a little bit of a, like, personal data safety protocol. 613 00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:33,210 Georgia Hampton: A 100%. Oh, I think anyone who uses it has to 614 00:35:33,210 --> 00:35:33,930 pay attention to that. 615 00:35:34,675 --> 00:35:36,755 Mike Rugnetta: And Like, you know, do you do you have to get, 616 00:35:36,755 --> 00:35:42,435 like, a TikTok only device? Oh god. Just get an old Android 617 00:35:42,435 --> 00:35:45,635 phone from eBay and Wi Fi only and 618 00:35:46,355 --> 00:35:49,310 Hans Buetow: I was never on TikTok, so I have a very 619 00:35:49,310 --> 00:35:51,630 different perspective of having watched it for all of these 620 00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:54,110 years. And the thing that I feel like I've watched is so many 621 00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:58,510 people close the Venn diagram between Internet and TikTok Yes. 622 00:35:58,750 --> 00:36:02,045 To where I think there's a sizable number. I I can't say 623 00:36:02,045 --> 00:36:04,205 for sure how many, but think that TikTok is the Internet or 624 00:36:04,205 --> 00:36:07,805 the Internet is TikTok. I think that the question for me is 625 00:36:07,805 --> 00:36:09,245 where does everyone go? 626 00:36:09,565 --> 00:36:11,725 Yeah. And if they don't feel like they have anywhere to go, I 627 00:36:11,725 --> 00:36:13,725 think that's a lot of the bet that's being made right now. 628 00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:16,390 100%. Don't feel like they're easy because where are they 629 00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:17,750 gonna go? They go to Instagram? 630 00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:20,230 Mike Rugnetta: Barry Weiss of CBS. You go to Barry Weiss of c 631 00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:22,230 Georgia Hampton: b right. Where do you 632 00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:24,710 Hans Buetow: go is a really, really big question. So who's 633 00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:27,510 gonna activate? Just like the explosion of blue sky, is there 634 00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:33,055 gonna be explosion of new TikTok equivalent based on an open 635 00:36:33,055 --> 00:36:37,295 protocol, something that's gonna actually take people over? 636 00:36:43,055 --> 00:36:46,160 Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So obviously, I think, no easy 637 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,960 answers here. This has been a long saga. The saga will 638 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,160 continue. The feelings about these things complicated as they 639 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,080 always are, as they always will be. 640 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,435 Audience, listeners, we really wanna hear from you. What do you 641 00:36:57,435 --> 00:37:00,475 think? Are you staying on TikTok? Are you leaving TikTok? 642 00:37:00,475 --> 00:37:03,115 Do you need a replacement if you leave it? 643 00:37:03,435 --> 00:37:06,875 And if so, where do you go to fill it? And why isn't that 644 00:37:06,875 --> 00:37:12,635 place reels? Alright. Thanks everybody. Thank you, Hans. 645 00:37:12,770 --> 00:37:13,810 Thank you Georgia. 646 00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:15,570 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Thanks Mike. This was helpful. 647 00:37:26,625 --> 00:37:28,625 Mike Rugnetta: That is the news we have for you this week. We're 648 00:37:28,625 --> 00:37:32,065 gonna be back here on the main feed on or around Thursday, 649 00:37:32,065 --> 00:37:39,985 02/05/2026 with a segment about Pornhub's 2025 in review dataset 650 00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:43,030 and what we can learn about the skyrocketing growth in 651 00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:49,750 popularity of safe for work content on the traditionally not 652 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:55,865 safe for work platform. Neverpost is listener funded. 653 00:37:55,865 --> 00:37:58,425 That means, please imagine me pointing and wearing a really 654 00:37:58,425 --> 00:38:04,425 garish suit. We need you to keep this show going. 655 00:38:04,585 --> 00:38:09,030 Head on over to neverpo.st to give us 4 of your monthly 656 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:12,630 dollars, and in return, we will continue to give you thoughtful 657 00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:16,070 and expertly crafted audio about a little thing you may have 658 00:38:16,070 --> 00:38:20,790 heard about, contemporary existence suffused with 659 00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:25,815 technology. Neverpo.st. Become a member. It's just $4 a month. 660 00:38:30,695 --> 00:38:34,055 Neverpost's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the 661 00:38:34,055 --> 00:38:35,735 mysterious doctor first name last name. 662 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,560 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is 663 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,840 Jason Oberholzer. The show's host, that's me, is Mike 664 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:49,400 Grenada. There's no promise at the present, though the 665 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,265 present's not promise at all. The grifter flashes a glimmer 666 00:38:53,265 --> 00:38:54,785 like it was a sure thing. 667 00:38:55,265 --> 00:38:59,185 Clinging to these turns blind sides what's before the eye, a 668 00:38:59,185 --> 00:39:03,985 fist behind dice. I want distraction even more than you, 669 00:39:03,985 --> 00:39:08,150 but both of us lost the duel when our seconds went missing. 670 00:39:09,350 --> 00:39:14,550 Excerpt of Against Hope by Charles Bernstein. Never post is 671 00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:18,165 a production of charts and leisure and it's distributed by 672 00:39:18,165 --> 00:39:19,045 Radiotopia.