1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,955 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:13,955 --> 00:00:16,275 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:16,275 --> 00:00:20,835 Grigneta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 04/28/2026 at 4 00:00:20,835 --> 00:00:27,555 09:01PM eastern, and we have an independent show for you this 5 00:00:27,555 --> 00:00:32,680 week. In this episode, I chat with Alexander Smolianitsky, the 6 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,400 head of open source product and delivery at Germany's Federal 7 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:42,785 Center for Digital Sovereignty, aka Zendis, an organization 8 00:00:42,785 --> 00:00:47,345 focused on divesting the German state from technology products 9 00:00:47,345 --> 00:00:53,185 they cannot control, which means many American technology 10 00:00:53,185 --> 00:00:56,650 products. Zandise and its aims are part of a larger movement 11 00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:00,010 we've mentioned on the show before that's called digital 12 00:01:00,170 --> 00:01:01,130 sovereignty. 13 00:01:01,450 --> 00:01:03,930 But first, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna listen 14 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:07,265 to some ads unless you're on the member feed. And when we return, 15 00:01:07,265 --> 00:01:09,265 we're gonna talk about a few of the things that have happened 16 00:01:09,265 --> 00:01:13,985 since the last time you heard from us. Look at all these movie 17 00:01:13,985 --> 00:01:16,625 stars. They're so beautiful and clean. 18 00:01:16,705 --> 00:01:19,825 When the housemaids scrubbed the floors, they get the spaces in 19 00:01:19,825 --> 00:01:27,340 between seven stories this week. Brazil has banned almost 30 20 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:30,860 prediction market platforms from operating within the country. 21 00:01:30,860 --> 00:01:34,300 This includes such standouts as Kalshi, Polymarket, and 22 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:37,615 Robinhood's prediction market feature. The ban goes into 23 00:01:37,615 --> 00:01:41,215 effect May 1 and fully prohibits the use of such markets tied to 24 00:01:41,215 --> 00:01:45,935 quote, non economic events such as elections, sports, and 25 00:01:45,935 --> 00:01:49,615 cultural outcomes according to crypto news website 26 00:01:48,930 --> 00:01:52,930 Cryptopolitan. The Lula da Silva administration has characterized 27 00:01:52,930 --> 00:01:56,290 the move as one aligned with an overall goal of reducing 28 00:01:56,290 --> 00:01:59,810 indebtedness in the country, saying unregulated prediction 29 00:01:59,810 --> 00:02:03,570 markets are indistinguishable from gambling and present too 30 00:02:03,570 --> 00:02:05,905 great a risk to financial stability. 31 00:02:06,225 --> 00:02:09,585 Dario Durrigan, the executive secretary of Brazil's finance 32 00:02:09,585 --> 00:02:13,505 ministry, has said the move puts an end to the regulatory, quote, 33 00:02:13,585 --> 00:02:18,850 anarchy of 2018 to 2022, roughly the period during which hospital 34 00:02:18,850 --> 00:02:25,810 lover Jair Bolsonaro served as president. Meanwhile, Gannon Ken 35 00:02:25,810 --> 00:02:29,265 Van Dyke, a US special forces soldier involved in the capture 36 00:02:29,265 --> 00:02:32,945 of Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro was charged with using 37 00:02:32,945 --> 00:02:38,785 classified information to win $400,000 from polymarket bets 38 00:02:38,785 --> 00:02:42,785 related to the capture of Venezuelan president Nicolas 39 00:02:42,785 --> 00:02:46,500 Maduro. In doing so, Van Dyke has breached a number of non 40 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,180 disclosure agreements, prosecutors say. For their part, 41 00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:52,260 the prediction market service that has been struggling with 42 00:02:52,260 --> 00:02:55,300 rampant insider trading issues over the last year, especially 43 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:58,340 as it relates to the operations of the American government 44 00:02:57,855 --> 00:03:01,135 released a statement saying, insider trading has no place on 45 00:03:01,135 --> 00:03:03,215 polymarket. Okay. 46 00:03:04,255 --> 00:03:07,215 Rednote, the Chinese social platform is looking to break 47 00:03:07,215 --> 00:03:10,255 into The US. The service saw a surge in international 48 00:03:10,255 --> 00:03:14,330 popularity during the so called TikTok ban of 2025 and has 49 00:03:14,330 --> 00:03:17,130 started making moves to more earnestly expand into The 50 00:03:17,130 --> 00:03:20,410 States, hiring domestic staff and staging events at colleges 51 00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:24,090 throughout the country. RedNote has 300,000,000 monthly users in 52 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:27,865 China, and third quarter projections put its 2025 profits 53 00:03:27,865 --> 00:03:31,945 at around $3,000,000,000. Analysts speaking to rest of 54 00:03:31,945 --> 00:03:34,425 world say the platform will have trouble breaking into the 55 00:03:34,425 --> 00:03:38,425 crowded calcified US market, and that a meaningful entree will 56 00:03:38,425 --> 00:03:41,920 cost the company hundreds of millions, if not billions in 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,200 advertising. Maybe they should consider starting a prediction 58 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:45,680 market. 59 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,840 Okay. Apple violated the first amendment rights of Mark Hodges 60 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,440 when it illegally removed his ice tracking app, Eyes Up, from 61 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,445 the app store following a pressure from former US attorney 62 00:03:56,445 --> 00:04:00,285 general and haunted Barbie doll, Pam Bondi, as was ruled by a 63 00:04:00,285 --> 00:04:04,365 federal judge in Illinois. Court documents reviewed by Indiana CW 64 00:04:04,365 --> 00:04:07,565 affiliate, Wish TV, revealed that Apple cleared the app for 65 00:04:07,565 --> 00:04:10,810 review in August only to then pull it down for violating 66 00:04:10,810 --> 00:04:14,810 guidelines against defamatory, discriminatory, or mean spirited 67 00:04:14,810 --> 00:04:18,410 content after Bondi's public wails, moans, and chain 68 00:04:18,410 --> 00:04:21,865 rattlings. Court documents read that Apple quote, had knowledge 69 00:04:21,865 --> 00:04:25,225 of the purpose of Eyes Up of actual videos available on it 70 00:04:25,225 --> 00:04:29,145 and how it worked before government intervention, yet no 71 00:04:29,145 --> 00:04:32,505 violations were found. At time of writing, Eyes Up remains 72 00:04:32,505 --> 00:04:34,105 unavailable on the App Store. 73 00:04:34,105 --> 00:04:39,370 Oh, yeah. Okay. Autocomplete changes how you write according 74 00:04:39,370 --> 00:04:42,730 to new research presented at the twenty twenty six conference on 75 00:04:42,730 --> 00:04:46,490 human factors in computing systems. Researchers describe 76 00:04:46,490 --> 00:04:49,765 how while writing, if the computer places a phrase after 77 00:04:49,765 --> 00:04:52,485 the one you are currently writing in an attempt to 78 00:04:52,485 --> 00:04:55,125 complete your thought, your mental mode changes from 79 00:04:55,125 --> 00:04:59,525 generating to responding. Instead of thinking, Morneiman 80 00:04:59,525 --> 00:05:04,885 writes on Blue Sky, you react to what AI is suggesting using it 81 00:05:03,870 --> 00:05:05,950 as a starting point, end quote. 82 00:05:06,110 --> 00:05:09,950 The research characterizes this as a shift to reactive writing. 83 00:05:10,030 --> 00:05:12,830 Though writers may adapt suggestions, quote, the 84 00:05:12,830 --> 00:05:16,990 underlying framing and concepts from the AI survived into the 85 00:05:16,990 --> 00:05:20,735 final text. Researcher Ad Vaid Bhatt writes on Blue Sky, 86 00:05:20,815 --> 00:05:24,815 continuing, even in passages writers composed themselves. 87 00:05:24,815 --> 00:05:25,855 Alex Smolianitski: Okay. 88 00:05:26,095 --> 00:05:29,935 Mike Rugnetta: Archive.org hosts the steadily growing Adam Jacobs 89 00:05:29,935 --> 00:05:33,460 collection. Jacobs began attending and taping live 90 00:05:33,460 --> 00:05:38,500 concerts in the Chicago area in 1984, and in the following years 91 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:44,020 recorded over 10,000 shows. Volunteers are digitizing the 92 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:47,585 archive including various ephemera and uploading it for 93 00:05:47,585 --> 00:05:52,305 your listening pleasure. And this collection is incredible. 94 00:05:52,305 --> 00:05:57,505 Matmos in 2006, Faith No More in 1987, Nico Case in 2001, 95 00:05:57,585 --> 00:06:01,745 Minutemen and New Order in 1985, Kim Deal in 2012. 96 00:06:01,745 --> 00:06:06,460 It is wild. I cannot recommend highly enough giving it a look 97 00:06:06,460 --> 00:06:09,580 and a listen. It is an unbelievable cultural document 98 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:13,180 and what the internet is for. Link in the show notes. 99 00:06:13,180 --> 00:06:13,580 Alex Smolianitski: Okay. 100 00:06:15,175 --> 00:06:18,615 Mike Rugnetta: And finally, Europeans want digital 101 00:06:18,615 --> 00:06:23,815 sovereignty. ZDNet reports that at this year's SUSECON, 98% of 102 00:06:23,815 --> 00:06:26,855 people surveyed want to move away from centralized, 103 00:06:26,935 --> 00:06:31,710 proprietary, and US based technology solutions. SUSE is a 104 00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:35,310 Luxembourg based provider of enterprise IT solutions based in 105 00:06:35,310 --> 00:06:38,350 Linux, and at their annual trade show, they learned the vast 106 00:06:38,350 --> 00:06:43,310 majority of, quote, IT leaders worldwide are looking to divest 107 00:06:43,310 --> 00:06:46,990 from hyperscalers and hyperclouds, and that over half 108 00:06:47,205 --> 00:06:50,165 have already started the process. This is at a time when 109 00:06:50,165 --> 00:06:53,845 the American government has ordered diplomats to combat 110 00:06:54,165 --> 00:06:57,205 various digital sovereignty initiatives around the world, 111 00:06:57,285 --> 00:07:00,090 claiming that the shift will disrupt global data flows and 112 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:02,490 act counter to the goals of product development in 113 00:07:02,490 --> 00:07:05,610 artificial intelligence, an industry currently propping up 114 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:09,370 the national economy. We've mentioned digital sovereignty a 115 00:07:09,370 --> 00:07:12,250 few times on Never Post, but what does doing that work 116 00:07:12,445 --> 00:07:13,485 actually look like? 117 00:07:13,485 --> 00:07:17,245 What are governments and other enterprise IT consumers really 118 00:07:17,245 --> 00:07:20,765 worried about if they engage in an ongoing relationship with 119 00:07:20,765 --> 00:07:26,210 proprietary US technology? Given the American technological 120 00:07:26,210 --> 00:07:31,570 hegemony, is it really even possible to fully divest? After 121 00:07:31,570 --> 00:07:34,370 a short break, I discussed this and more with Alexander 122 00:07:34,370 --> 00:07:37,595 Smolianitsky of Germany's Federal Center for Digital 123 00:07:37,595 --> 00:07:57,860 Sovereignty. In the last couple years, for reasons which will be 124 00:07:57,860 --> 00:08:01,860 obvious if you listen to this show, many groups and European 125 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:05,780 governments chief amongst them have began to despair of their 126 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:10,565 overreliance on US tech products. Not just Slack and 127 00:08:10,565 --> 00:08:16,485 Zoom and Microsoft Office, but Google Cloud, AWS, and other 128 00:08:16,485 --> 00:08:19,925 offerings which represent more deeply embedded digital and 129 00:08:19,925 --> 00:08:21,045 network infrastructure. 130 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:28,700 This concern has only grown under the shadow of AI, the 131 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:32,060 fundamental premise of which contravenes many of the EU's 132 00:08:32,060 --> 00:08:36,060 strict regulations around moderation, data sharing, and 133 00:08:36,060 --> 00:08:40,725 deletion. As such, a growing coalition of politicians, policy 134 00:08:40,725 --> 00:08:44,085 groups, organizations, and governments are seeking to 135 00:08:44,085 --> 00:08:48,485 diminish or outright remove their reliance on foreign, 136 00:08:48,485 --> 00:08:53,250 meaning American, technology. They seek what's called digital 137 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:57,010 sovereignty or sometimes technological sovereignty. 138 00:08:57,010 --> 00:09:01,250 French president Emmanuel Macron famously said in 2020, if we 139 00:09:01,250 --> 00:09:06,605 don't build our own champions in all areas, digital, artificial 140 00:09:06,605 --> 00:09:11,725 intelligence, our choices will be dictated by others. These 141 00:09:11,725 --> 00:09:16,045 efforts appear increasingly essential given an increasingly 142 00:09:16,045 --> 00:09:19,645 erratic American administration and its trade policy. 143 00:09:20,030 --> 00:09:23,230 Critics of the various efforts to divest from foreign tech 144 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:28,190 products may point, say, to China or Russia, both of whom 145 00:09:28,190 --> 00:09:32,430 famously practice a strict form of technological sovereignty, 146 00:09:32,835 --> 00:09:36,995 exercising authoritarian control over their citizens' access. Is 147 00:09:36,995 --> 00:09:40,995 this what Europe wants? A restrictive draconian tech 148 00:09:40,995 --> 00:09:45,490 policy? And furthermore, aren't American tech products simply 149 00:09:45,490 --> 00:09:49,090 the best in the world? Why settle for anything less in the 150 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:52,850 operation of something as significant as a government? 151 00:09:53,650 --> 00:09:58,450 And I mean, how does one even stop using AWS? Is that even 152 00:09:58,450 --> 00:10:02,345 possible? To find out the answers to these questions, I 153 00:10:02,345 --> 00:10:06,105 reached out to Germany's Federal Center for Digital Sovereignty, 154 00:10:06,185 --> 00:10:09,785 who put me in touch with their head of open source product and 155 00:10:09,785 --> 00:10:18,970 delivery. Joining me is Alex Smolianitski, a digital 156 00:10:18,970 --> 00:10:21,610 strategist currently serving as the head of open 157 00:10:21,610 --> 00:10:25,130 source product and delivery at the Federal Center for Digital 158 00:10:25,130 --> 00:10:28,650 Sovereignty. Could you tell me a little bit about what Zendesk 159 00:10:28,650 --> 00:10:28,970 is? 160 00:10:29,375 --> 00:10:31,935 Alex Smolianitski: So we are some sort of a unicorn in 161 00:10:31,935 --> 00:10:35,615 Germany, but also maybe globally. We are a private 162 00:10:35,615 --> 00:10:39,135 company which is owned by the federal government of Germany, 163 00:10:39,135 --> 00:10:44,110 and we are basically the ones who are responsible for 164 00:10:44,350 --> 00:10:48,030 analyzing and figuring out solutions whenever it comes to 165 00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:51,710 critical digital dependencies. There was a study a few years 166 00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:54,830 ago in which the public administration, the federal one, 167 00:10:55,585 --> 00:10:59,585 analyzed and and figured out that there is actually a lot of 168 00:10:59,585 --> 00:11:02,945 that within the software ecosystem, which we are using on 169 00:11:02,945 --> 00:11:07,105 a day to day basis. And, basically, legislation as well 170 00:11:07,185 --> 00:11:11,230 figured out that we should have some sort of an answer on that 171 00:11:11,230 --> 00:11:15,310 regard on a German, but also on a European level, and that's 172 00:11:15,310 --> 00:11:19,550 what we are doing every day. We we try to provide solutions or 173 00:11:19,550 --> 00:11:23,790 platforms for these solutions to get rid of critical 174 00:11:23,790 --> 00:11:24,270 dependencies. 175 00:11:25,205 --> 00:11:29,045 Mike Rugnetta: And so what do those look like? Like, what is a 176 00:11:29,045 --> 00:11:32,485 critical technological dependency that needs to be 177 00:11:32,805 --> 00:11:34,485 ameliorated or addressed? 178 00:11:34,485 --> 00:11:37,125 Alex Smolianitski: One of them is, for example, or or the way 179 00:11:37,125 --> 00:11:41,060 that you can analyze or or feel that you have a dependency is 180 00:11:41,060 --> 00:11:44,580 whenever you wanna switch to a different product, but you feel 181 00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:48,340 that you are super accustomed with whatever you have and you 182 00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:53,615 have some sort of inner or an outer sign that you don't wanna 183 00:11:53,615 --> 00:11:56,255 switch. And and this is where you feel that you have a 184 00:11:56,255 --> 00:11:59,855 dependency. In in the German administration, it's, for 185 00:11:59,855 --> 00:12:02,655 example, whenever it comes to workspaces or the operating 186 00:12:02,655 --> 00:12:09,130 systems, we do use a lot of Microsoft products, for example, 187 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:15,530 or databases which are based on on other big providers. And 188 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:20,170 Sure. People understood that it's not really useful to rely 189 00:12:20,170 --> 00:12:24,325 on just one provider for for these types of solutions. 190 00:12:24,725 --> 00:12:27,205 Mike Rugnetta: And is that just because you get you get locked 191 00:12:27,205 --> 00:12:30,725 in, and then you you can't change, and there's, you know or 192 00:12:30,725 --> 00:12:33,365 the change is extremely difficult or expensive? 193 00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:36,470 Alex Smolianitski: It's many things. One of them is that you 194 00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:40,310 cannot really rely on having some sort of a dependent or or 195 00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:44,390 independence in regards to the financial models. Everything 196 00:12:44,390 --> 00:12:48,525 right now is moving into the cloud, and you have, like, some 197 00:12:48,525 --> 00:12:52,365 sort of a cost explosion which everybody is feeling. That's one 198 00:12:52,365 --> 00:12:56,205 part. The other one is obviously that whenever you are using 199 00:12:56,205 --> 00:12:59,485 software, and that's where the the change from offline 200 00:12:59,485 --> 00:13:03,110 bureaucracy to online bureaucracy comes into hand 201 00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:07,990 maybe, is that you have to have the ability to change the 202 00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:10,310 processes and maybe change software. 203 00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:15,125 And it's really difficult if you have a big player to actually 204 00:13:15,125 --> 00:13:17,765 ask them for some sort of a change request within their 205 00:13:17,765 --> 00:13:23,445 software. And so what comes out is that very often, the process 206 00:13:23,445 --> 00:13:27,860 is being adapted according to the tool and not the tool 207 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:29,220 according to the process. 208 00:13:29,220 --> 00:13:34,100 Mike Rugnetta: Sure. Yeah. So I wanna just read something that 209 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:38,340 is stated on the Zendesk website, and then maybe go, 210 00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:41,735 like, just like section by section a little bit to try to 211 00:13:41,735 --> 00:13:46,215 understand some of these things. Mhmm. So on the Zendesk website 212 00:13:46,215 --> 00:13:50,055 it says, our state is highly dependent on a few large tech 213 00:13:50,055 --> 00:13:53,575 companies, resulting in a serious loss of control over 214 00:13:53,575 --> 00:13:58,390 state IT, With a comprehensive sovereignty package consisting 215 00:13:58,390 --> 00:14:02,710 of a platform, products, and consulting, the Center for 216 00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:06,150 Digital Sovereignty and Public Administration supports federal, 217 00:14:06,150 --> 00:14:08,870 state, and local authorities in freeing themselves from critical 218 00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:12,245 dependencies and securing their ability to act. 219 00:14:12,645 --> 00:14:16,485 So who are the large tech companies upon which the state 220 00:14:16,485 --> 00:14:19,605 is highly dependent? You mentioned Microsoft. So is it 221 00:14:19,605 --> 00:14:23,510 sort of like all of the usual suspects that you might think 222 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:27,030 are at a similar level as Microsoft? 223 00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:30,710 Alex Smolianitski: Yeah. It's it's everybody who who runs IT 224 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:34,550 knows that there are a few providers which are, on 225 00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:37,925 everybody's mind. It's obviously Microsoft. It's, whenever you 226 00:14:37,925 --> 00:14:43,445 come to databases, it's, something like Oracle. And if 227 00:14:43,445 --> 00:14:48,405 you go on a more infrastructural level, it's, VMware. 228 00:14:48,405 --> 00:14:48,965 Mike Rugnetta: Mhmm. 229 00:14:48,965 --> 00:14:51,870 Alex Smolianitski: And these are just a few. These are the the 230 00:14:51,870 --> 00:14:55,950 really big ones who are super deep within the infrastructure 231 00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:56,670 right now. 232 00:14:56,670 --> 00:14:59,550 Mike Rugnetta: And so are you talking about trying to remove 233 00:14:59,550 --> 00:15:05,765 dependency on, like, a few large pervasive providers, or is it 234 00:15:05,765 --> 00:15:08,005 many companies, big and small? 235 00:15:08,245 --> 00:15:11,045 Alex Smolianitski: It's less targeting a company and trying 236 00:15:11,045 --> 00:15:15,045 to replace it, but more providing an alternative to the 237 00:15:15,045 --> 00:15:17,925 processes which which are being used on a day to day basis. 238 00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:19,650 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. That actually gets to my next 239 00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:23,330 question, which is what is state IT? Like, what sorts of products 240 00:15:23,330 --> 00:15:25,410 and services are we talking about? 241 00:15:25,490 --> 00:15:27,890 Alex Smolianitski: So everybody has some sort of a digital 242 00:15:27,890 --> 00:15:31,570 workspace right now. Email, you do need to edit some texts, 243 00:15:32,275 --> 00:15:35,715 phone calls, video calls, need to chat. But then there's 244 00:15:35,715 --> 00:15:39,315 obviously also some sort of a software when it comes to, for 245 00:15:39,315 --> 00:15:44,275 example, storing files, doing some sort of a service for for 246 00:15:44,275 --> 00:15:48,710 citizens when it comes to forms, databases, and and, like, 247 00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:49,750 workflow tools. 248 00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:51,910 Mike Rugnetta: So, I mean, is this at every level of 249 00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:55,510 government? Like, we talking about taxes and population and 250 00:15:55,510 --> 00:15:59,510 demographics checking and transit, and it's just a totally 251 00:15:59,510 --> 00:16:01,030 pervasive problem? 252 00:16:01,655 --> 00:16:03,735 Alex Smolianitski: It is a totally pervasive problem. It 253 00:16:03,735 --> 00:16:06,375 was actually a decision which was based, and there was a 254 00:16:06,375 --> 00:16:09,895 unanimous vote on that regard by all the states and also the 255 00:16:09,895 --> 00:16:14,295 federal government to start getting this sort of technical 256 00:16:14,295 --> 00:16:18,190 independence on all levels of government. There are different 257 00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:21,630 decision makers and also different types of IT 258 00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:24,590 infrastructures and also people who are responsible for that. 259 00:16:24,750 --> 00:16:28,350 Zendesk is something that is primarily focused on the federal 260 00:16:28,350 --> 00:16:30,990 government, but we do work a lot with the different states 261 00:16:31,675 --> 00:16:35,835 Because people understood that we should not focus on some sort 262 00:16:35,835 --> 00:16:40,395 of a random tool which is being used by parts of the 263 00:16:40,395 --> 00:16:44,555 administration, but we should focus on basically the heart of 264 00:16:44,555 --> 00:16:48,030 of the everyday workspace, and that's the main application that 265 00:16:48,030 --> 00:16:49,070 people are using. 266 00:16:49,390 --> 00:16:52,030 Mike Rugnetta: It just feels like such a it feels like such a 267 00:16:52,030 --> 00:16:53,310 massive undertaking. 268 00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:55,310 Alex Smolianitski: It is super massive, and it's really 269 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:58,590 interesting because, obviously, this is also the the most 270 00:16:58,590 --> 00:17:03,045 emotional part of an of a public servant or so if you you 271 00:17:03,045 --> 00:17:07,285 basically touch what they are they've been using, I guess, 272 00:17:07,285 --> 00:17:10,485 since school or or for some people of of the younger 273 00:17:10,485 --> 00:17:15,525 generation or or since they joined the workforce. We all do 274 00:17:15,525 --> 00:17:20,680 that. We do know where where a button is located. Sure. And we 275 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,360 do know what kinda I don't know, where there is a buggy situation 276 00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:27,560 or something like that, and suddenly you just come strip 277 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,520 everything that they knew and replace it with a new piece of 278 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:30,840 software. 279 00:17:31,265 --> 00:17:33,345 Mike Rugnetta: How much of the work that you're doing is, like, 280 00:17:33,345 --> 00:17:37,505 software development versus, say, procurement versus, say, 281 00:17:37,985 --> 00:17:40,465 you know, purchasing? Is it all of the above? 282 00:17:40,945 --> 00:17:43,025 Alex Smolianitski: I would love to say that we are focusing on 283 00:17:43,025 --> 00:17:46,130 one of them, but it's actually all of the above. We do need 284 00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:49,010 development. We do need procurement. We do need, 285 00:17:49,330 --> 00:17:53,010 basically, also some sort of convincing people to join the 286 00:17:53,010 --> 00:17:56,130 the movement. And I think it's really important to understand 287 00:17:56,130 --> 00:17:59,170 that we are not just some sort of a young fresh start up within 288 00:17:59,170 --> 00:18:03,835 the government which which tries to rebuild out their existing 289 00:18:03,835 --> 00:18:08,155 software components, but we are working with the market and with 290 00:18:08,155 --> 00:18:12,155 different tool providers either in Germany or somewhere within 291 00:18:12,155 --> 00:18:16,740 Europe who are building software for years or sometimes even 292 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:20,340 decades and are some sort of a market leader in their niche in 293 00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:22,260 regards to what product they are building. 294 00:18:22,340 --> 00:18:25,815 The Tendus part or the Tendus magic which we are integrating 295 00:18:25,815 --> 00:18:30,455 into these products is, getting all these different partners to 296 00:18:30,455 --> 00:18:33,415 actually work together and to provide some sort of a suite 297 00:18:33,415 --> 00:18:37,895 which feels like it's one tool rather than you have a, like, a 298 00:18:37,895 --> 00:18:41,510 list of eight or 10 different companies, who are providing you 299 00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:45,270 tools. So you do log in through one window, and everything 300 00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:48,790 within the suite, looks the similar. It's the same colors. 301 00:18:48,790 --> 00:18:52,230 It's the same navigation. It's the same place where the data is 302 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:52,710 being stored. 303 00:18:53,135 --> 00:18:56,175 Mike Rugnetta: I noticed in the suite of tools that is listed on 304 00:18:56,175 --> 00:18:58,655 the website, and in, you know, some of the other things that 305 00:18:58,655 --> 00:19:02,415 I've read that it's it's all open source. And is that because 306 00:19:03,055 --> 00:19:07,640 you're able to, make these changes? Is that a sort of 307 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,920 philosophical standpoint that inspires that relationship? 308 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,680 Alex Smolianitski: I wouldn't call it philosophy. I would call 309 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,320 it, pragmatism. First of all, if you work with open source, you 310 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:22,785 are able to read all the lines which which are being produced. 311 00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:25,665 So it's really interesting for us out of a security aspect 312 00:19:25,985 --> 00:19:30,065 Mhmm. Because we we are able to harden the software. 313 00:19:30,065 --> 00:19:33,265 We are able to find out if there is some sort of a security 314 00:19:33,265 --> 00:19:37,550 breach, and and we can fix it much faster than just rely on 315 00:19:37,550 --> 00:19:42,110 some report which we cannot verify. That's one thing. The 316 00:19:42,110 --> 00:19:46,045 other one is that you can adapt. That's what you also said. And 317 00:19:46,045 --> 00:19:49,565 we are able to customize basically according to our 318 00:19:49,565 --> 00:19:50,125 needs. 319 00:19:50,925 --> 00:19:55,565 Whenever we are investing into these products, we do have some 320 00:19:55,565 --> 00:19:58,445 sort of a commitment that if we are building something, it's 321 00:19:58,445 --> 00:20:03,050 actually sustainable because it can be reused either by other 322 00:20:03,050 --> 00:20:07,610 users or by completely strangers who are also using these tools. 323 00:20:07,610 --> 00:20:11,930 So it's actually, if the state is investing into this product, 324 00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:15,525 it's not license fees, which which we are losing but not 325 00:20:15,525 --> 00:20:18,085 owning anything, but but actually it's some sort of an 326 00:20:18,085 --> 00:20:20,245 investment into a product to make it better. 327 00:20:20,805 --> 00:20:22,485 Mike Rugnetta: And, like, you're through this, you're able to 328 00:20:22,485 --> 00:20:26,165 ameliorate the threat of future dependency. 329 00:20:26,165 --> 00:20:28,790 Alex Smolianitski: Yes. Even with open source software, you 330 00:20:28,790 --> 00:20:32,630 are able to be in some sort of a dependency. And and that's 331 00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:36,870 where, actually, the community and the the aspect that you have 332 00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:41,670 to have some sort of a a vital open source market or an IT 333 00:20:41,670 --> 00:20:46,095 market out there is super crucial because, we all know 334 00:20:46,095 --> 00:20:50,655 that, companies can change their minds or stuff like that. And 335 00:20:50,655 --> 00:20:54,015 with open source software, we do know that if we invest into 336 00:20:54,015 --> 00:20:57,500 these tools and they are out there and we do have the source 337 00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:03,340 code, either we or someone else, can pick it up if we lose a 338 00:21:03,340 --> 00:21:06,780 partner along the way and continue working on that. It's 339 00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:10,300 super cool to know that you are not just investing into a tool 340 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:15,105 for the usage, but actually for, like, some sort of a wider range 341 00:21:15,105 --> 00:21:19,665 of benefits which you can can have by having that code 342 00:21:19,665 --> 00:21:23,985 actually readable and installable or pluggable into 343 00:21:23,985 --> 00:21:24,865 different environments. 344 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:27,710 Mike Rugnetta: Open source plagued by maybe a slightly 345 00:21:27,710 --> 00:21:30,430 different problem of, like, you know, the individual person who 346 00:21:30,430 --> 00:21:33,870 maintains some tool changing their mind or abandoning it, but 347 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:37,470 there's a much there's a safety net there in that, it's all 348 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:42,125 available. I'm curious, how hard has this been? 349 00:21:42,605 --> 00:21:45,485 Alex Smolianitski: We are still laughing. I think convincing 350 00:21:45,485 --> 00:21:51,085 that it's a reasonable solution is easy, but then it's just as a 351 00:21:51,085 --> 00:21:53,965 writer like some sort of a writer's blockade whenever you 352 00:21:53,965 --> 00:21:57,040 have an empty page and you need to start writing. I think the 353 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,640 same applies to change processes. So, actually, during 354 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,480 the launch keynote, we did receive the first few 100 and 355 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,720 then the next thousands of inquiries from from different 356 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,545 public bodies who are eager to try it out, and I think it's 357 00:22:12,545 --> 00:22:16,065 really important. And the first step is actually to convince 358 00:22:16,065 --> 00:22:21,105 them, and then them getting them on the track of moving. 359 00:22:21,505 --> 00:22:25,505 You do not just switch a software, but you have to 360 00:22:25,690 --> 00:22:30,250 explain, you have to convince people actually to start rolling 361 00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:33,690 it out within their different public agencies, and that's 362 00:22:33,690 --> 00:22:36,730 something that that is out there. And I think even the 363 00:22:36,730 --> 00:22:41,175 feedback that we receive is, giving us enough energy to to 364 00:22:41,175 --> 00:22:44,615 continue moving. And we do see that there is some sort of 365 00:22:44,615 --> 00:22:47,895 energy which is out there in the public, sector, but there is 366 00:22:47,895 --> 00:22:52,935 also the same sort of energy or or, the same topics which are 367 00:22:52,935 --> 00:22:56,220 out there not only for the public administration, but also 368 00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:59,180 obviously for the private sector. You just have different 369 00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:03,980 names for the same thoughts or worries which they have. They 370 00:23:03,980 --> 00:23:06,860 they don't say it's maybe digital sovereignty or so, but 371 00:23:06,860 --> 00:23:10,845 they talk about espionage of their products or something like 372 00:23:10,845 --> 00:23:14,445 that or or obviously all sorts of regulations which which are 373 00:23:14,445 --> 00:23:18,045 out there, for example, on the financial sector, which keep 374 00:23:18,045 --> 00:23:23,405 them somewhere within close proximity to the conversations 375 00:23:23,405 --> 00:23:25,140 and the topics which we have. 376 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:28,820 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. And like the idea of any bureaucracy, 377 00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:32,660 really, looking at fundamentally the way some things are run, and 378 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:35,700 then saying, like, oh, we should change this. It feels like such 379 00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:39,105 a remote possibility, but I guess the willingness speaks to 380 00:23:39,105 --> 00:23:42,465 just the risks and the frustration with being locked 381 00:23:42,465 --> 00:23:46,145 into a bunch of these tools Yeah. Or, you know, locked into 382 00:23:46,145 --> 00:23:47,105 their feature sets. 383 00:23:47,105 --> 00:23:49,585 Alex Smolianitski: Yeah. And it's super important also out of 384 00:23:49,585 --> 00:23:54,860 the perspective of a state or of a government. You do need to 385 00:23:54,860 --> 00:23:58,940 have a functioning state Sure. All the time. You cannot say 386 00:23:58,940 --> 00:24:02,380 that there is some sort of an outage, and you cannot, you 387 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:04,860 know, provide social welfare or something like that. 388 00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:08,355 Mhmm. So it's really interesting to change or or to have this 389 00:24:08,355 --> 00:24:12,995 sort of mindset, but also technical change within a fully 390 00:24:12,995 --> 00:24:14,515 functioning and working body. 391 00:24:14,515 --> 00:24:16,515 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. And to know that the risks if it doesn't 392 00:24:16,515 --> 00:24:17,795 work are quite high. 393 00:24:18,035 --> 00:24:20,195 Alex Smolianitski: Yes. Yes. That's something that I learned 394 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,800 during the time when I was CDO at in the city that I used to 395 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,760 live in. It was always I think it was actually like the the 396 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,805 social welfare department which explained to me that I do have 397 00:24:33,805 --> 00:24:38,205 one shot, and if it's not working, you you are you are 398 00:24:38,205 --> 00:24:41,485 going to be responsible for child support or so not being 399 00:24:41,485 --> 00:24:42,525 able to be paid. 400 00:24:43,085 --> 00:24:43,885 Mike Rugnetta: No pressure. 401 00:24:43,885 --> 00:24:45,805 Alex Smolianitski: Or if there's the fire department, they need 402 00:24:45,805 --> 00:24:48,370 to pick up the phone within, like, I don't know, like, three 403 00:24:48,370 --> 00:24:52,610 seconds or so, and you cannot provide a tool which might be 404 00:24:52,610 --> 00:24:56,210 ideologically better but but not working. 405 00:24:56,530 --> 00:25:00,530 Mike Rugnetta: Mhmm. What does the next five years look like 406 00:25:00,065 --> 00:25:00,625 for you? 407 00:25:00,625 --> 00:25:02,305 Alex Smolianitski: Sometimes I do not know what the next week 408 00:25:02,305 --> 00:25:03,345 is going to look like. 409 00:25:03,985 --> 00:25:06,065 Mike Rugnetta: We can start at the next week or month if that's 410 00:25:06,065 --> 00:25:06,705 easier. 411 00:25:06,705 --> 00:25:08,625 Alex Smolianitski: I do not know what the next week is going to 412 00:25:08,625 --> 00:25:13,505 look like. I think I think it's really interesting to see. I do 413 00:25:13,505 --> 00:25:18,070 not know about the numbers within the US public 414 00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:21,830 administration, but in Germany, we do have a big chunk of 415 00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:27,830 workforce which is going to go into their retirement. And we 416 00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:32,005 need to pick up the work that they are doing maybe in 417 00:25:32,005 --> 00:25:35,685 different ways. And I think it's something that, obviously, in 418 00:25:35,685 --> 00:25:39,285 regards to AI and what we are seeing right now on a day to day 419 00:25:39,285 --> 00:25:42,805 basis where AI is changing the way that we are working, is 420 00:25:42,805 --> 00:25:48,940 going to take also over certain typical processes of of 421 00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:52,380 governments and most certainly of the workspace that we are 422 00:25:52,380 --> 00:25:53,180 working in. 423 00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:53,580 Mike Rugnetta: Mhmm. 424 00:25:53,580 --> 00:25:56,220 Alex Smolianitski: That maybe is even not the five year plan, but 425 00:25:56,220 --> 00:26:00,620 maybe really something between the week and the five years 426 00:25:59,975 --> 00:26:04,295 because the speed is amazing. I feel like that. And I and I 427 00:26:04,295 --> 00:26:07,895 really hope that we continue to grow and to scale. And we see 428 00:26:07,895 --> 00:26:12,775 that also. We do have also this platform on which public 429 00:26:12,775 --> 00:26:14,375 administration is able to develop. 430 00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:20,010 And we see that since we took that platform over, there is a 431 00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:23,610 larger amount of actually new projects which are being started 432 00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:27,210 there and being deployed from there. And that makes me at 433 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:32,355 least some sort of hopeful that we are not the only crazy ones 434 00:26:32,355 --> 00:26:34,675 out there, but actually many others are also going to 435 00:26:34,675 --> 00:26:39,475 continue on this journey in regards to, open source tools. 436 00:26:39,795 --> 00:26:41,875 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I'm curious what you know, when you think 437 00:26:41,875 --> 00:26:44,820 about the challenges that you're about to face and, you know, 438 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:48,580 having had interactions with folks doing similar work in 439 00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:52,660 France and maybe other parts of Europe, like, is this how many 440 00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:55,620 of these problems and their solutions are distributed 441 00:26:55,620 --> 00:27:00,155 across, say, like, the European Union or the world? Like, how do 442 00:27:00,155 --> 00:27:02,875 you see this playing out in other places? Or is this problem 443 00:27:02,875 --> 00:27:05,195 the same across the board, or is it different? 444 00:27:05,275 --> 00:27:08,315 Alex Smolianitski: If you call digital dependency a problem, 445 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,780 then I guess it's something that is out there basically 446 00:27:12,780 --> 00:27:16,460 throughout the entire world. I would say the question is how 447 00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:19,980 you are, whether it's bothering you and how you are working 448 00:27:19,980 --> 00:27:23,385 against that feeling, not against the dependency itself. I 449 00:27:23,385 --> 00:27:26,985 am we see that, that that serenity is something that is, 450 00:27:27,305 --> 00:27:31,465 not ending at the state's borders, but it's a common issue 451 00:27:31,545 --> 00:27:35,225 that some countries face more than others. We did pick up 452 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,240 slack, obviously, within the European Union with with all the 453 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,760 neighboring countries right now because out of all the, 454 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,440 criticism which you can always hear about Germany and their 455 00:27:47,845 --> 00:27:52,405 maybe, speed in regards to digitalizing, like, everyday 456 00:27:52,405 --> 00:27:57,445 life. Actually, the idea to found, some sort of a center for 457 00:27:57,445 --> 00:28:00,980 digital sovereignty is something very progressive, And that's 458 00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:06,020 something that many countries are looking into or are 459 00:28:06,020 --> 00:28:08,180 fantasizing of having something like that. 460 00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:11,380 Usually, whenever we have colleagues also in other 461 00:28:11,380 --> 00:28:15,435 countries, it's some sort of maybe, like, a team within a 462 00:28:15,435 --> 00:28:19,755 department, which is working on that. And here, we we have an 463 00:28:19,755 --> 00:28:24,475 entire institution for that. So that's really cool. We started 464 00:28:24,475 --> 00:28:28,220 first with France, and then we also had the colleagues from 465 00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:32,380 Netherlands joining us. And then throughout, I think, or or over 466 00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:36,940 the course of six months, each public administration had to 467 00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:40,105 face reelection, some of them multiple times. 468 00:28:40,105 --> 00:28:40,425 Mike Rugnetta: Oh, 469 00:28:40,425 --> 00:28:43,625 Alex Smolianitski: wow. And and we had to keep it all going, and 470 00:28:43,625 --> 00:28:46,185 it was really interesting because we always thought that 471 00:28:46,425 --> 00:28:49,545 we do need to have some sort of an international partner to have 472 00:28:49,545 --> 00:28:52,930 some sort of continuity and stability, But we all kept 473 00:28:52,930 --> 00:28:57,650 going, we all, survived and got sometimes even stronger, out of, 474 00:28:58,130 --> 00:29:02,610 out of these elections, with with more political backing, I 475 00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:05,105 guess, because this is not only just some sort of a 476 00:29:05,105 --> 00:29:07,825 hallucination, but it's actually some sort of a dependency which 477 00:29:07,825 --> 00:29:10,145 is being taken very seriously. 478 00:29:10,145 --> 00:29:11,905 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. It's incredible. It really speaks to, 479 00:29:11,905 --> 00:29:14,945 I think, the commitment that Yep. Everybody feels to the 480 00:29:14,945 --> 00:29:20,240 process. Do you foresee Zentis being an sort of increasing hub 481 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,680 for this kind of work in Europe? 482 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,560 Alex Smolianitski: First of all, obviously, our main client is 483 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,120 the German 484 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,080 Mike Rugnetta: Germany. Yeah. 485 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,640 Alex Smolianitski: German administration, but we do work 486 00:29:30,105 --> 00:29:33,225 with other countries, together. And actually, one of the 487 00:29:33,225 --> 00:29:37,465 outcomes of this cooperation, which we started with France and 488 00:29:37,465 --> 00:29:40,745 Netherlands and then many other countries within Europe, was 489 00:29:40,745 --> 00:29:44,610 some sort of a consortium, which is also backed by the European 490 00:29:44,610 --> 00:29:49,250 Union in which there is a public body which cares about digital 491 00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:54,050 commons and is able to connect, these sorts of initiatives 492 00:29:54,050 --> 00:29:58,015 between, or among different European states, but also with 493 00:29:58,015 --> 00:29:59,135 the private sector. 494 00:29:59,455 --> 00:30:02,575 Mike Rugnetta: I'm curious what what you have to say to folks 495 00:30:02,575 --> 00:30:06,335 who might hear about this work and hear about, you know, 496 00:30:06,335 --> 00:30:10,890 digital sovereignty generally, and say that this is like, this 497 00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:12,730 is the opposite of what we should be doing. You know, 498 00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:15,690 people should be we should be sharing more technology. We 499 00:30:15,690 --> 00:30:20,570 should be pushing the bigger companies to be more open, and 500 00:30:20,570 --> 00:30:23,210 more transparent as opposed to just switching to different 501 00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:28,445 tools. And like, you know, maybe the state is, the best to be 502 00:30:28,445 --> 00:30:31,245 able to push those companies to do that, and that what you're 503 00:30:31,245 --> 00:30:36,970 doing by going open source and going, you know, like trying to 504 00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:41,770 move things closer to closer to home or within the border, that 505 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:44,650 this is like, you know, isolationist or protectionist, 506 00:30:44,650 --> 00:30:47,290 or you're just sort of like retreating from a larger 507 00:30:47,290 --> 00:30:50,570 problem, and just focusing on your own thing. Okay. 508 00:30:51,195 --> 00:30:53,995 Alex Smolianitski: I think it's super important to understand 509 00:30:53,995 --> 00:30:57,435 that digital sovereignty doesn't mean that you are building a 510 00:30:57,435 --> 00:31:02,475 wall, but actually are providing maybe some sort of a I always 511 00:31:02,475 --> 00:31:05,195 try to explain that it's some sort of a market stand or so 512 00:31:05,195 --> 00:31:07,640 where you have different products which are out there. 513 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,400 And by that, you do not try to get isolated from the world, but 514 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,520 actually just try to have some sort of stable and sovereign 515 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,085 standing among partners. At the same time, everybody is still 516 00:31:23,085 --> 00:31:26,045 super sovereign and has their own opinion and actually the 517 00:31:26,045 --> 00:31:30,125 abilities to change the products. So even though that 518 00:31:30,125 --> 00:31:33,965 the product might be used also in a different country, it could 519 00:31:33,965 --> 00:31:37,325 look completely different, and that's, I think, the benefits 520 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:38,370 which are out there. 521 00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:42,690 Mike Rugnetta: Alex, this has been fascinating. I really 522 00:31:42,690 --> 00:31:44,850 appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. Thanks for 523 00:31:44,850 --> 00:31:45,490 coming on. 524 00:31:45,490 --> 00:31:47,890 Alex Smolianitski: Thank you, Mike, and thanks to the team for 525 00:31:47,890 --> 00:31:48,450 having me. 526 00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:51,745 Mike Rugnetta: If our listeners want to learn more about Zendesk 527 00:31:51,745 --> 00:31:54,145 or Digital Sovereignty or any of these things, where are the 528 00:31:54,145 --> 00:31:56,225 places that you would send them online? 529 00:31:56,225 --> 00:31:58,305 Alex Smolianitski: Go to our websites. They are all also 530 00:31:58,305 --> 00:32:02,785 available in English. So Zendesk DE and OpenDesk EU, actually. 531 00:32:02,785 --> 00:32:04,465 Check out our websites. 532 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Mike Rugnetta: Great. Perfect. I'll put those links in the show 533 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,920 notes too. Thanks. Thanks again to Alex and to Lutz Nehemiah at 534 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:13,640 Zendis. 535 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,520 You can find out more about the organization and the work they 536 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:32,525 do in the show notes. That is the show we have for you this 537 00:32:32,525 --> 00:32:34,845 week. We're gonna be back here in the main feed on or around 538 00:32:34,845 --> 00:32:40,400 Thursday, May 7. As of this week, at the April 2026, we are 539 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,120 currently offering a deal, a promo as they call it. We have 540 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,645 teamed up with three of our favorite indie outlets, Rascal, 541 00:32:49,645 --> 00:32:55,165 Rogue, and Aftermath to offer you, our listeners, a discount 542 00:32:55,165 --> 00:32:56,445 subscription bundle. 543 00:32:56,445 --> 00:33:02,090 That's right. You can subscribe to all four outlets at once for 544 00:33:02,090 --> 00:33:06,490 half price for thirty days. If you're already a member of one 545 00:33:06,490 --> 00:33:09,210 or more, it's even cheaper. You can find a link in the show 546 00:33:09,210 --> 00:33:13,450 notes to the worker owned collective subscription bundle 547 00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:16,505 and get thirty day discount membership. And when that's 548 00:33:16,505 --> 00:33:18,825 over, you can renew whatever you like. 549 00:33:18,825 --> 00:33:22,745 There's no commitment to stay subscribed to all four outlets. 550 00:33:23,385 --> 00:33:25,785 This is just the first of a bunch of collaborative efforts 551 00:33:25,785 --> 00:33:29,480 that we're getting underway with these folks and others, and I'm 552 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,800 just I'm really excited about it. We've been working on a lot 553 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,920 of stuff, kinda like behind the scenes trying to figure out, you 554 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,280 know, as a collective of websites, what can we even 555 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,485 actually do together? I And feel like this is a really fun, 556 00:33:42,605 --> 00:33:45,485 exciting first step. So get in on this while it's still 557 00:33:45,485 --> 00:33:49,085 available and see what all of these sites have to offer their 558 00:33:49,085 --> 00:33:49,485 members. 559 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,460 Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, 560 00:33:57,460 --> 00:34:00,580 and the mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior 561 00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:03,060 producer is Hans Buto, our executive producer is Jason 562 00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:10,295 Oberholzer, and the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rignetta. The 563 00:34:10,295 --> 00:34:13,815 body falls from the eastern sky into history and breaks apart. 564 00:34:13,815 --> 00:34:17,575 Lost on earth headless teeth biting toes and doesn't stop 565 00:34:17,575 --> 00:34:21,335 falling, falls through. In hell, a pile of limbs waiting to be 566 00:34:21,335 --> 00:34:21,575 fed. 567 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,960 Here, the furnace set that points the passage through tents 568 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,400 the only place it ever meant and makes a descant of the eyes 569 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,600 turning on the boundary of speech. A round thing on the 570 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,475 poverty of wish that cannot love to die and sets in fear behind 571 00:34:37,475 --> 00:34:42,995 the new factory. Excerpt of Excavations by Peter Reilly. 572 00:34:43,555 --> 00:34:46,355 Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and is 573 00:34:46,355 --> 00:34:48,595 distributed by Radiotopia.