1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,325 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:14,325 --> 00:00:16,885 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:22,885 Rugnetta, and we have a lullzy episode for you this week. Jason 4 00:00:22,885 --> 00:00:26,405 chats with doctor Jess Rosberg, assistant professor in the 5 00:00:26,405 --> 00:00:29,740 department of communication, media, and the arts at Seton 6 00:00:29,740 --> 00:00:35,020 Hall University about so called lull cows, about digital 7 00:00:35,020 --> 00:00:39,820 freakery, and how social media platforms repeat and recreate 8 00:00:39,820 --> 00:00:44,380 strains of ableism present in society since the middle ages. 9 00:00:45,535 --> 00:00:48,255 But first, we're gonna take a quick break. You're gonna listen 10 00:00:48,255 --> 00:00:50,575 to some ads unless you're on the member feed. 11 00:00:50,575 --> 00:00:54,495 And when we return, Jason and doctor Roschberg. 12 00:01:08,330 --> 00:01:12,010 Jason Oberholtzer: For a while now, I've been looking for a way 13 00:01:12,010 --> 00:01:18,785 to cover the phenomenon known as Lolcows, that's l o l cows on 14 00:01:18,785 --> 00:01:24,865 Never Post. I find it to be a particularly complicated corner 15 00:01:24,865 --> 00:01:29,585 of the internet that illustrates a lot of complicated parts of 16 00:01:29,585 --> 00:01:33,200 human behavior. We will shortly get into a more nuanced 17 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,800 description of what a Lolcow is, but in short, it's a streamer 18 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,560 whose audience is there largely to gawk at their behavior and 19 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,765 interact with them in ways that might be spurring the streamer 20 00:01:46,765 --> 00:01:51,645 on to increasingly bizarre or dangerous behavior. Towards the 21 00:01:51,645 --> 00:01:55,805 end of last year, there was some news from the world of Lolcows 22 00:01:55,805 --> 00:02:00,770 vaguely speaking that got some traction in outlets that 23 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:03,810 normally wouldn't cover such things. Unfortunately, the event 24 00:02:03,810 --> 00:02:09,090 that precipitated that news was the death at the young age of 34 25 00:02:09,090 --> 00:02:13,490 of Joshua Saunders, also known as Gothic King Cobra. 26 00:02:14,175 --> 00:02:17,135 Now I was most familiar with King Cobra through clips that 27 00:02:17,135 --> 00:02:20,095 would find their way occasionally to my feed. He was 28 00:02:20,095 --> 00:02:24,575 a self proclaimed goth, like you might imagine. He sort of had an 29 00:02:24,575 --> 00:02:28,850 Ozzy Osbourne affect to him. He would wear this black crumpled 30 00:02:28,850 --> 00:02:33,730 up cowboy hat, and he liked black leather, and studs and 31 00:02:33,730 --> 00:02:38,370 spikes, and wearing eye makeup, and had a long beard, and 32 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:42,530 shredded on the guitar, and he would spend his time on stream 33 00:02:42,815 --> 00:02:48,255 seemingly mostly drinking and smoking and chatting with his 34 00:02:48,255 --> 00:02:52,815 audience, and occasionally cooking truly bizarre meals 35 00:02:52,815 --> 00:02:56,350 often involving Doritos. And one feature that seemed to be 36 00:02:56,350 --> 00:03:00,030 present across all of these videos was this ambivalent 37 00:03:00,030 --> 00:03:04,670 relationship that his audience seems to have with him, where 38 00:03:04,670 --> 00:03:11,065 they were both pushing him in the way typical of Lolcows to do 39 00:03:11,065 --> 00:03:14,985 more outrageous and extreme things, drink more, smoke more, 40 00:03:14,985 --> 00:03:16,425 cook weirder things. 41 00:03:17,065 --> 00:03:20,425 But also this affection that they seem to have for him, 42 00:03:20,425 --> 00:03:24,830 because he would say truly phenomenal one liners. He would 43 00:03:24,830 --> 00:03:29,390 have really astute observations about himself in the world. I 44 00:03:29,390 --> 00:03:33,070 found myself drawn to a lot of the clips I would see of him. 45 00:03:33,230 --> 00:03:36,190 But there was also a darkness to these interactions. People would 46 00:03:36,190 --> 00:03:40,525 send him prank gifts, like the can that you open up and the 47 00:03:40,525 --> 00:03:43,885 little snake like things fly out at you, and would try to 48 00:03:43,885 --> 00:03:47,725 convince him on stream that this time in fact, like Lucy putting 49 00:03:47,725 --> 00:03:52,070 the football down, it was actually Pringles, and he would 50 00:03:52,070 --> 00:03:54,870 let himself be talked into opening it and then be 51 00:03:55,510 --> 00:03:58,470 disappointed and surprised that once again he was tricked. 52 00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:02,070 They would swat him sending police to his house. And these 53 00:04:02,070 --> 00:04:06,055 are all typical interactions between Lolcows and their fandom 54 00:04:06,055 --> 00:04:09,415 or whatever you can call it. But I always found there to be a bit 55 00:04:09,415 --> 00:04:13,575 of warmth and protectiveness in his fan base as well. And I 56 00:04:13,575 --> 00:04:16,215 certainly found a lot of moments where I was empathizing with 57 00:04:16,215 --> 00:04:19,600 him. Now this isn't to say he's without his controversies. 58 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,160 I don't know exactly what they are, but I know they're there. 59 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,280 This is a complicated figure with a complicated relationship 60 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:28,800 to the Internet. But I genuinely liked when his clips would show 61 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,365 up, and found myself liking him in many ways. So I was pretty 62 00:04:33,365 --> 00:04:39,045 sad when I heard the news. And I thought about if then was a good 63 00:04:39,045 --> 00:04:42,645 time to do a story on Lolcows, but I didn't really know what I 64 00:04:42,645 --> 00:04:45,685 wanted to do, and I didn't really know if I wanted to do 65 00:04:45,685 --> 00:04:46,005 anything. 66 00:04:46,550 --> 00:04:50,390 Especially because the next thought that would come to me 67 00:04:50,870 --> 00:04:55,430 was usually along the lines of, I wonder who is gonna die next. 68 00:04:56,150 --> 00:04:59,755 And the first name that often would come to me was Joshua 69 00:04:59,755 --> 00:05:03,995 Block or World of T shirts as he's known on TikTok where he 70 00:05:03,995 --> 00:05:08,235 first established his notoriety. And then a couple months ago, I 71 00:05:08,235 --> 00:05:12,315 came across a paper, Lolcows and the Mediation of Digital 72 00:05:12,315 --> 00:05:16,680 Freakshow by Jess Rosberg, an assistant professor at Seton 73 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,920 Hall University. And the paper was covering not only Lolcows, 74 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,640 but specifically Joshua Block, World of T shirts. And so I'm 75 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,680 particularly grateful to Jess for wading into this territory 76 00:05:29,265 --> 00:05:33,185 and for agreeing to come on the show and talk to me a bit about 77 00:05:33,185 --> 00:05:33,905 her paper. 78 00:05:33,905 --> 00:05:36,865 So Jess, thank you so much for joining us. 79 00:05:37,105 --> 00:05:38,865 Jess Rauchberg: Thank you so much for having me, Jason. 80 00:05:39,025 --> 00:05:41,825 Jason Oberholtzer: So first off, I am interested. Let's help set 81 00:05:41,825 --> 00:05:45,850 some stakes here in what exactly a Lolcow is, and how that term 82 00:05:45,850 --> 00:05:48,810 has evolved over the years. But first, would you be able to 83 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:52,650 describe the quintessential Lolcow video? 84 00:05:53,370 --> 00:05:56,010 Jess Rauchberg: So first and foremost, a Lolcow is an 85 00:05:56,010 --> 00:05:59,210 Internet persona who is perceived to be highly 86 00:05:58,605 --> 00:06:04,205 exploitable and someone who can be instigated or antagonized for 87 00:06:04,205 --> 00:06:07,085 another Internet user's entertainment. And so this is a 88 00:06:07,085 --> 00:06:11,085 portmanteau of the phrase lols and cows. So you're milking them 89 00:06:11,085 --> 00:06:14,285 for your entertainment. I think for me, and I've most closely 90 00:06:14,285 --> 00:06:18,580 looked at the live streamer and content creator, Josh Bloch, 91 00:06:18,580 --> 00:06:23,460 also known as World of T shirts, is a moment where he's on a live 92 00:06:23,460 --> 00:06:28,180 stream sitting at a cafe in New York City and somebody passerby 93 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:32,185 screams, put the fries in the bag. And that's a phrase that's 94 00:06:32,185 --> 00:06:36,185 often used to insinuate that he's not capable of doing 95 00:06:36,345 --> 00:06:40,825 anything more than minimum wage labor and Josh is shown on the 96 00:06:40,825 --> 00:06:44,930 livestream biting himself, hitting himself, and threatening 97 00:06:44,930 --> 00:06:48,850 to attack this this young woman who's who has yelled at him. 98 00:06:48,850 --> 00:06:52,850 And at the same time, she's said that because she knows it'll get 99 00:06:52,850 --> 00:06:54,370 a rise and maybe even a viral moment. 100 00:06:55,965 --> 00:06:58,445 Jason Oberholtzer: Let's go, Josh. Let's How dare you? And 101 00:06:58,445 --> 00:07:00,925 clearly, what is terrifying at this moment is that it has 102 00:07:00,925 --> 00:07:05,165 escaped the containment of The Forum, and this is now affecting 103 00:07:05,165 --> 00:07:08,285 his real life. And one assumes the viewers of this stream are 104 00:07:08,285 --> 00:07:09,085 having a great time. 105 00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:11,750 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. I think the form is a great analogy. 106 00:07:11,750 --> 00:07:17,990 It's more like an an arena, and we are all at in the front row 107 00:07:17,990 --> 00:07:18,390 seat. 108 00:07:18,550 --> 00:07:19,990 Jason Oberholtzer: And what is the general response to this 109 00:07:19,990 --> 00:07:21,590 interaction? What do the comments look like? 110 00:07:21,815 --> 00:07:24,695 Jess Rauchberg: This is a very common interaction with this 111 00:07:24,695 --> 00:07:28,935 particular creator. The comments repeat, put the fries in the 112 00:07:28,935 --> 00:07:33,335 bag, bro. Maybe they'll make comments on what they speculate 113 00:07:33,335 --> 00:07:37,840 Josh's mental capacity or his mental abilities to be or not 114 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,520 be. And in these types of videos, because they've happened 115 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:46,480 so often, we'll see a smirk from the fry buyer who's who's 116 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,075 screamed at Josh. Sometimes if he's hit them, there's another 117 00:07:51,075 --> 00:07:55,315 video where a woman at a club says that to him, she fry bites 118 00:07:55,315 --> 00:07:57,555 him and he smacks her on the head and she's stunned. 119 00:07:57,555 --> 00:08:01,395 And it's almost this belief that, oh, Josh has agency. He 120 00:08:01,395 --> 00:08:04,675 can do things back. Not things that are nice and things that 121 00:08:04,675 --> 00:08:09,020 are pleasant, but he can create a reaction and yet people still 122 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:12,780 do it because there's that promise of entertainment and 123 00:08:12,780 --> 00:08:13,500 amusement. 124 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,300 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. So let's take a moment to do a bit 125 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:19,835 of the biography of Josh Block here, who is someone we've 126 00:08:19,835 --> 00:08:22,155 referenced a bunch already and probably will reference more. 127 00:08:22,155 --> 00:08:23,835 You reference a lot in your paper. 128 00:08:24,315 --> 00:08:27,915 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. So Josh is a pretty young creator. He's in 129 00:08:27,915 --> 00:08:32,510 his mid twenties now, and he gained notoriety on TikTok as a 130 00:08:32,510 --> 00:08:36,670 teenager. And so Josh has a socially awkward affect, but, 131 00:08:36,990 --> 00:08:39,950 really use the platform to try to connect with other people. So 132 00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:43,230 he would create dancing videos, he would go out into public and 133 00:08:43,425 --> 00:08:44,465 shout things. 134 00:08:44,705 --> 00:08:47,425 He was living in Long Island with his grandparents at the 135 00:08:47,425 --> 00:08:51,025 time, and so he would take the train into Manhattan and record 136 00:08:51,025 --> 00:08:52,945 himself singing in Times Square. 137 00:08:56,980 --> 00:08:59,860 Jason Oberholtzer: Jungle wet dreams are made of 138 00:09:00,100 --> 00:09:03,300 Jess Rauchberg: Some of those mentalities that his audience 139 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:07,860 has now that he's reached full Lolcows status, they were there, 140 00:09:07,860 --> 00:09:10,180 but it was a little bit more endearing. Like, oh, Josh, he's 141 00:09:10,180 --> 00:09:13,675 so cute and innocent and awkward. It is perceived that 142 00:09:13,675 --> 00:09:17,035 Josh is autistic or has some kind of developmental 143 00:09:17,035 --> 00:09:22,235 disability. It is not clarified. He has never come out and said 144 00:09:22,235 --> 00:09:26,600 that, but his following sees him as a disabled person. 145 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,920 And so in my research, I use the language of apparency that he 146 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,040 appears to be or he's perceived to be because that's something 147 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,040 that shapes how people interact with him. 148 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:36,280 Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. 149 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,095 Jess Rauchberg: When Josh turned 21, he started drinking 150 00:09:39,095 --> 00:09:43,095 excessively and during this time, he began working with his 151 00:09:43,095 --> 00:09:47,255 first handler and these when by handlers, I'm referring to a 152 00:09:47,255 --> 00:09:52,220 term that's used in Josh's fandom or community or anti 153 00:09:52,220 --> 00:09:55,820 fandom if we can call it that. Usually older men and now 154 00:09:55,820 --> 00:10:00,060 usually streamers who act as a manager for Josh, but it's a 155 00:10:00,060 --> 00:10:03,685 little bit more because Josh becomes really much attached to 156 00:10:03,685 --> 00:10:07,125 this person. And I think the term handler is used to almost 157 00:10:07,125 --> 00:10:10,885 dehumanize him, that he could not do these things on his own. 158 00:10:10,885 --> 00:10:13,685 And it's not the same as, you know, a neurotypical creator 159 00:10:13,685 --> 00:10:19,205 having a manager or an agent, but rather this is someone who 160 00:10:17,930 --> 00:10:20,250 provides not only a professional, but an emotional 161 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:24,970 and personal caretaker role for Josh. Josh has had a very 162 00:10:24,970 --> 00:10:31,370 interesting climb to notoriety and the ways that he uses 163 00:10:31,370 --> 00:10:34,675 digital platforms has changed, especially as he moved away from 164 00:10:34,675 --> 00:10:36,515 short form content to live streaming. 165 00:10:36,595 --> 00:10:41,075 But I think what has become more pronounced is his fans, whether 166 00:10:41,075 --> 00:10:45,875 on a live stream or in person, try to instigate him or even so 167 00:10:45,875 --> 00:10:49,680 his handlers try to instigate him, especially when he is most 168 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:53,040 of the time very heavily under the influence of alcohol. 169 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Jason Oberholtzer: And so you in your paper sort of liken this to 170 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,480 a legacy of behavior that this is maybe made more accessible 171 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,035 now because we can follow this person on their livestream as 172 00:11:04,035 --> 00:11:07,235 they walk around New York City, but that in fact, this is core 173 00:11:07,235 --> 00:11:10,195 human nature behavior and has been for a very long time. 174 00:11:10,435 --> 00:11:13,715 Jess Rauchberg: Yes. I've been conducting some research on the 175 00:11:13,715 --> 00:11:18,090 history of freakery and freakery as a form of entertainment. And 176 00:11:18,090 --> 00:11:21,450 so to understand the contemporary locale, we have to 177 00:11:21,450 --> 00:11:24,970 go all the way back to medieval Europe and thinking about the 178 00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:29,475 image of the the natural fool, Somebody who's what we would now 179 00:11:29,475 --> 00:11:32,595 call disability or neurodivergence in medieval 180 00:11:32,595 --> 00:11:37,395 Europe, their purpose divinely ordained is to entertain what we 181 00:11:37,395 --> 00:11:40,750 would now call probably neurotypical people. And this 182 00:11:40,750 --> 00:11:44,430 was a way to be part of communities. They were often, 183 00:11:44,430 --> 00:11:47,390 you know, accepted by patrons, nobles, kings, kind of like 184 00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:48,030 pets. 185 00:11:48,030 --> 00:11:51,870 And they were taken care of, but are they on the same page, or 186 00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:54,815 are they in on it? And oftentimes, I think that depends 187 00:11:54,815 --> 00:11:57,935 on each individual locale creator in a contemporary sense, 188 00:11:57,935 --> 00:12:00,895 but oftentimes, no. They are not. And sometimes that is 189 00:12:00,895 --> 00:12:04,095 interpersonal, and many times that's structural. You are kept 190 00:12:04,095 --> 00:12:06,095 out of being part of the social structure. 191 00:12:06,095 --> 00:12:09,850 You don't really have a say in how you're exploited even if 192 00:12:09,850 --> 00:12:13,610 that's what it appears to be. And so a thousand years later or 193 00:12:13,610 --> 00:12:17,690 so, we still have these same issues where these creators are 194 00:12:17,690 --> 00:12:21,130 gaining notoriety. Some of them have millions of followers. 195 00:12:21,130 --> 00:12:25,475 Josh, for example, has 4,000,000 over 4,000,000 TikTok followers. 196 00:12:25,635 --> 00:12:30,355 He had a exclusive contract with Party, which is a web three 197 00:12:30,355 --> 00:12:33,955 point o streaming platform that aims to be a competitor with 198 00:12:33,955 --> 00:12:34,515 Twitch. 199 00:12:34,755 --> 00:12:38,780 But it's uncertain about how much power he actually has in 200 00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:43,180 his role as a digital worker and as a creator that has a pretty 201 00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:47,260 prominent following. And really, what is speculated is that his 202 00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:50,620 handlers or the streamers that kind of steer him around the 203 00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:53,340 country from event to event are the ones that have the power. 204 00:12:53,645 --> 00:12:56,045 Jason Oberholtzer: It seems like the image that is emerging here 205 00:12:56,045 --> 00:13:01,085 is of, like, an infrastructure needed to both, like, support 206 00:13:01,085 --> 00:13:05,165 the popularity of and the logistics of being a content 207 00:13:05,165 --> 00:13:09,290 creator at the scale of a Josh Block, as well as I think 208 00:13:09,290 --> 00:13:16,410 murkier areas of guiding and possibly enabling and I think 209 00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:19,850 even taking your original analogy here of the medieval 210 00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:23,455 court. The characters that have to appear to assemble that court 211 00:13:23,455 --> 00:13:27,535 and fill it and give it the resources it needs to support 212 00:13:27,535 --> 00:13:31,695 merriment, I suppose. I suspect this is sort of contested 213 00:13:31,695 --> 00:13:36,175 territory or at the very least unclear, but what is the general 214 00:13:36,175 --> 00:13:41,860 sense about the network of handlers and hangers on in the 215 00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:45,780 life of, I suppose, Josh Bloch most specifically, but also in 216 00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:49,380 this ecosystem? Are they helping? Are they enabling? 217 00:13:49,380 --> 00:13:51,620 Are they mooching? What what what is it? 218 00:13:51,875 --> 00:13:54,515 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. This is a common discourse. There's some 219 00:13:54,515 --> 00:13:56,995 really interesting conversations about what purpose do they 220 00:13:56,995 --> 00:13:59,875 serve. What I can speak to is his relationships with them. As 221 00:13:59,875 --> 00:14:00,355 I mentioned, 222 00:14:00,355 --> 00:14:00,755 you know, a couple 223 00:14:00,755 --> 00:14:06,370 moments ago, he is working with these people very closely in 224 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:09,570 ways that I think are very distinct from a traditional 225 00:14:10,290 --> 00:14:15,410 celebrity or or influencer who has an agent or has a management 226 00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:19,265 team. Mhmm. These people step in for Josh in in so many other 227 00:14:19,265 --> 00:14:23,185 capacities. And I think we use the term handler be almost like 228 00:14:23,185 --> 00:14:26,385 Josh is an animal, that he cannot handle himself when he 229 00:14:26,385 --> 00:14:30,385 does not have intervention from Tony or, he was previously 230 00:14:30,385 --> 00:14:34,630 recording a lot of his content with Jason Itzler. People may 231 00:14:34,630 --> 00:14:38,710 know him as mister Baste who has a very notorious background. 232 00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:43,110 And they would put Josh in hotels or take him to the 233 00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:46,230 doctor. I know when he was making content with mister 234 00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:49,055 Baste, Josh had a monkeypox scare, so they made a lot of 235 00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:52,415 content of him going to the doctor and testing out some 236 00:14:52,415 --> 00:14:57,535 growths on his body. Other than that, if they these handlers are 237 00:14:57,535 --> 00:15:02,100 not around, Josh is often seen, you know, sleeping on a public 238 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:05,220 transit system or just roaming around the city. Some of his 239 00:15:05,220 --> 00:15:10,020 fans claim to really miss those days and others have have 240 00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:12,260 different speculations on the handlers. Mhmm. 241 00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:14,820 I think also what's important here is that the handlers act as 242 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:19,545 liaisons to his followers. So for example, Josh was just in 243 00:15:19,545 --> 00:15:23,385 ten days of court ordered rehab, and so even some of his former 244 00:15:23,385 --> 00:15:26,745 handlers continued to talk with each other, and they helped 245 00:15:26,905 --> 00:15:31,420 shape some of the speculation that might emerge platforms 246 00:15:31,420 --> 00:15:36,540 where people talk and write about Josh, and they help create 247 00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:40,860 again the lore, the myth about about who Josh is and how he 248 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:43,340 needs to be controlled. They will try to intervene. Some of 249 00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:48,345 those interventions do not work. So we can see in in Josh's 250 00:15:48,345 --> 00:15:52,825 current status, he's navigating a legal case after assaulting a 251 00:15:52,825 --> 00:15:57,145 woman in Newport Beach, California on July 4, where he 252 00:15:57,145 --> 00:15:59,945 was placed under arrest and he's, you know, navigating that 253 00:15:59,945 --> 00:16:00,345 court case. 254 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:03,580 He probably could not do that without Tony and the other 255 00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:08,780 handlers. While Josh does have a relationship, I I don't know how 256 00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:11,740 strained it is with his grandparents. His his parents 257 00:16:11,740 --> 00:16:15,515 are also not in the picture. His mom unfortunately passed away 258 00:16:15,515 --> 00:16:18,155 from ovarian cancer when he was a teenager. This is something 259 00:16:18,155 --> 00:16:21,355 that Josh has spoken about on his platforms and I think 260 00:16:21,355 --> 00:16:25,115 something that does elicit a lot of sympathy from his his 261 00:16:25,115 --> 00:16:28,315 followers and and watchers that an audience that they feel for 262 00:16:28,315 --> 00:16:32,210 this this person who has been very wounded by by the loss 263 00:16:32,290 --> 00:16:33,650 tragic loss of a parent. 264 00:16:33,730 --> 00:16:38,610 And I believe Josh's dad has had his own battles with substance 265 00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:41,650 abuse and is is not in the picture. So Josh doesn't really 266 00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:44,965 have a family life. The handlers act in as a family. And in some 267 00:16:44,965 --> 00:16:48,725 ways, some may see the handlers as a plus, whereas others 268 00:16:48,725 --> 00:16:54,245 believe he is being exploited. But at the same time, I I'm 269 00:16:54,245 --> 00:16:57,610 curious about what that means because are you frustrated that 270 00:16:57,610 --> 00:17:01,530 he's being exploited on the platform itself and that you're 271 00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:04,650 upset that he's a Lolcow or are you upset that you think he's 272 00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:07,930 boring now because of who he's who's handling him and so 273 00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:10,505 therefore, the content is less amusing. 274 00:17:10,505 --> 00:17:15,225 And so when people have approached Josh and his content 275 00:17:15,225 --> 00:17:18,185 or other locals as as these moral issues in Internet 276 00:17:18,185 --> 00:17:22,025 culture, I often think, you know, is this the issue with the 277 00:17:22,025 --> 00:17:25,140 locale or are you not being entertained enough? Which again, 278 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:28,660 goes back to this analogy of the court jesters or even the rise 279 00:17:28,660 --> 00:17:31,780 of asylums in, you know, enlightenment era Britain where 280 00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:35,060 you could go visit inmates on Sundays and pay, and they'd put 281 00:17:35,060 --> 00:17:38,185 on a show for you. Josh provides that for viewers, but you don't 282 00:17:38,185 --> 00:17:40,825 have to go physically to the asylum where there are set hours 283 00:17:40,825 --> 00:17:44,905 for when you could visit. Now in 2026, you log on party, you log 284 00:17:44,905 --> 00:17:48,585 on to the streaming platform of choice, and Josh is there for 285 00:17:48,585 --> 00:17:50,265 your exploitation and pleasures. 286 00:17:50,265 --> 00:17:51,790 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Let's talk about these platforms for a 287 00:17:51,790 --> 00:17:53,870 little bit. I guess Yeah. The court in which this is all 288 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:56,190 happening. There's a line from your paper I particularly liked 289 00:17:56,190 --> 00:17:56,750 here. 290 00:17:57,310 --> 00:18:00,110 Platform economies and affordances reconfigure the 291 00:18:00,110 --> 00:18:03,630 reach of freakery. Here, Lolcows are positioned as media objects 292 00:18:03,630 --> 00:18:06,495 that can now be mocked, belittled, antagonized, trolled, 293 00:18:06,495 --> 00:18:10,815 or stereotyped from anywhere, anytime. You say platform 294 00:18:10,815 --> 00:18:15,455 economies and affordances here. So it's not just that they are 295 00:18:15,455 --> 00:18:18,680 providing the arena in which this happens, but they are also 296 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,520 providing some of the tools that makes the behavior what it is. 297 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,480 What are those? 298 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,520 Jess Rauchberg: Before I go there, any media object is 299 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:31,425 designed to solve the time and space issues. So how do we share 300 00:18:31,425 --> 00:18:34,865 information or connect across time and space? And a digital 301 00:18:34,865 --> 00:18:37,665 platform does that very well. It accelerates that time space 302 00:18:37,665 --> 00:18:41,345 collapse. If we think of a platform as a digital public 303 00:18:41,345 --> 00:18:45,105 square or a digital environment, when we do things in our 304 00:18:45,105 --> 00:18:48,370 physical environments, there's some kind of reaction or some 305 00:18:48,370 --> 00:18:50,770 kind of change and then that impacts all of us. 306 00:18:50,930 --> 00:18:54,690 And I think that's something that we see a lot in in platform 307 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:58,050 economies and and live streaming, particularly in the 308 00:18:58,050 --> 00:19:02,325 Lolcows space. So one feature of of live streaming platforms that 309 00:19:02,325 --> 00:19:07,125 are often used to instigate what we would call the meltdowns, the 310 00:19:07,125 --> 00:19:11,365 crash outs if you will, are is a feature called text to speech or 311 00:19:11,365 --> 00:19:14,965 TTS. And so this is a freemium feature on most platforms, at 312 00:19:14,965 --> 00:19:18,060 least it is on party where there's a chat alongside the 313 00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:20,700 stream where different viewers can interact with each other and 314 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:23,900 interact with Josh. But if you pay a little bit more to the 315 00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:28,425 account yours or creator you're subscribing to, you can have 316 00:19:28,425 --> 00:19:31,625 your comment read aloud on the stream to everyone. Sometimes 317 00:19:31,625 --> 00:19:35,865 that's a couple thousand to 30,000 people depending on the 318 00:19:35,865 --> 00:19:36,265 stream. 319 00:19:36,265 --> 00:19:38,345 Jason Oberholtzer: You steal your phone, Josh. You will not 320 00:19:38,345 --> 00:19:40,665 be able to stop me or find me. Yes, I will. 321 00:19:40,665 --> 00:19:43,650 Jess Rauchberg: I'll beat your ass. I'll your I'll beat your 322 00:19:43,625 --> 00:19:47,570 ass. Ass. That's read aloud for him and everyone else. So that 323 00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:50,690 not only instigates other people to act that way, but it also 324 00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:53,890 means you get a rise out of Josh where he will appear to bite 325 00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:58,825 himself, hit himself, scream, start those crash outs that are 326 00:19:58,825 --> 00:20:00,585 really what people are watching. 327 00:20:00,905 --> 00:20:06,025 And so Mhmm. The platforms can really exacerbate things that 328 00:20:06,025 --> 00:20:09,785 we've always been doing, but they become intensified and and 329 00:20:09,785 --> 00:20:12,025 and how we can exploit these people. 330 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,960 Jason Oberholtzer: Is part of that intensification the direct 331 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:24,360 transactional relationship of the views, the emotions involved 332 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:28,535 in those directly tied to those views on these platforms? 333 00:20:28,535 --> 00:20:30,775 Jess Rauchberg: I think that's a that's a fair assessment. And 334 00:20:30,775 --> 00:20:34,055 particularly when he was working with Jason Itzler or mister 335 00:20:34,055 --> 00:20:37,575 Baste, we saw a lot more of those crashouts and they would 336 00:20:37,575 --> 00:20:41,490 make quite a bit of money per stream on Josh having reactions 337 00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:44,850 and having crash outs. And Josh was making a profit. So he would 338 00:20:44,850 --> 00:20:48,450 often say that he had this huge contract, he was making all this 339 00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:53,170 money with party and that is uncertain about, you know, how 340 00:20:53,170 --> 00:20:55,455 truthful that is, and it's a little bit difficult to 341 00:20:55,455 --> 00:20:59,935 empirically prove it. But what we can ascertain is that he is 342 00:20:59,935 --> 00:21:02,095 in some way benefiting from this exploitation. 343 00:21:02,095 --> 00:21:06,495 And more so, the handlers are also benefiting it too. Because 344 00:21:06,735 --> 00:21:09,455 he has some kind of again, we don't know the details of the 345 00:21:09,210 --> 00:21:11,770 contracts, but we know that they have a working relationship. 346 00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:14,170 Jason Oberholtzer: I think this certainly makes more complicated 347 00:21:14,250 --> 00:21:17,770 counter criticism you hear frequently when people are 348 00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:21,210 wringing their hands about Lolcows. That if they didn't 349 00:21:21,210 --> 00:21:24,005 like it, if they weren't benefiting from it, if this was 350 00:21:24,005 --> 00:21:27,285 indeed triggering them so hard, they could just log off. But it 351 00:21:27,285 --> 00:21:31,685 is certainly more complicated than that when there are 352 00:21:31,925 --> 00:21:35,650 presumably contracts on the line with this series of handlers or 353 00:21:35,650 --> 00:21:38,210 network of people, and they're making a living. 354 00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:41,250 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. This is something that is not just a 355 00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:44,530 criticism of locals, but and again, not every locale is 356 00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:47,605 disabled or neurodivergent, but I do study disability and 357 00:21:47,605 --> 00:21:50,565 content creation. And so when I'm looking at other facets of 358 00:21:50,565 --> 00:21:54,565 disability and creative work, this is a common reaction that I 359 00:21:54,565 --> 00:21:57,125 get to. Well, if disabled people are being harassed on the 360 00:21:57,125 --> 00:21:59,605 platform, if they are being suppressed, can't they just make 361 00:21:59,605 --> 00:22:02,085 their own platform? Can't they just log off? 362 00:22:02,085 --> 00:22:06,240 And I don't think that's fair because one, I think you're 363 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,280 right. Contracts are contracts. And if you wanna keep your 364 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,480 contract, you gotta keep making money and and vice versa. I also 365 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,745 think that physical working spaces, particularly during the 366 00:22:16,745 --> 00:22:20,665 COVID nineteen pandemic and onward, which are that's still a 367 00:22:20,665 --> 00:22:23,785 reality for for most disabled people. The pandemic never 368 00:22:23,785 --> 00:22:24,265 ended. 369 00:22:24,265 --> 00:22:26,825 It just, you know, most people forgot about it. Physical 370 00:22:26,825 --> 00:22:29,850 working environments are not always accessible. And the 371 00:22:29,850 --> 00:22:32,730 creator economy with its flexible hours, it's, you know, 372 00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:35,850 certainly with the advent of short form content and in app 373 00:22:35,850 --> 00:22:38,650 editing features that go on with it, it it becomes a lot more 374 00:22:38,650 --> 00:22:42,250 easy to enter. There's no huge gatekeeping that's happening 375 00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:45,125 anymore. Lookout creators who may or may not be 376 00:22:45,125 --> 00:22:48,245 neurodivergent, disabled, yes, they're being exploited, but at 377 00:22:48,245 --> 00:22:50,485 the same time, it may not be easy to leave. 378 00:22:50,565 --> 00:22:54,485 It's also, these are often individuals who may not have 379 00:22:54,485 --> 00:22:57,925 support systems outside of their handlers and their their 380 00:22:57,925 --> 00:23:02,860 community. And I think it's a lot more easy to to make that 381 00:23:02,860 --> 00:23:08,220 suggestion than to consider, well, this is imbued in a larger 382 00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:13,575 structure and it can be very difficult for particularly for 383 00:23:13,575 --> 00:23:17,815 disabled locale creators to find work outside of content creation 384 00:23:17,815 --> 00:23:20,855 because those working environments may not be 385 00:23:20,855 --> 00:23:24,935 accessible to them in in various ways, or they lose all sense of 386 00:23:24,935 --> 00:23:28,910 support and connection and community. And I think we also 387 00:23:28,910 --> 00:23:32,030 may not think of disabled creators as workers in that way 388 00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:37,790 too. Because if we are saying, well, can just log off, then how 389 00:23:37,790 --> 00:23:39,710 are they supposed to support themselves and how are they 390 00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:43,315 supposed to contribute to our world? I think about throughout 391 00:23:43,315 --> 00:23:46,435 the nineteenth and twentieth century, most US cities had 392 00:23:46,435 --> 00:23:49,315 these unsightly beggar ordinances, which are 393 00:23:49,395 --> 00:23:51,075 colloquially known as ugly laws. 394 00:23:51,475 --> 00:23:53,795 I'm being very facetious here, but it made it very difficult to 395 00:23:53,795 --> 00:23:57,090 be a visibly disabled person in public, whether you're 396 00:23:57,090 --> 00:23:59,810 physically disabled or you appear to be neurodivergent. And 397 00:23:59,810 --> 00:24:02,930 we don't have those laws anymore, but I think the the 398 00:24:02,930 --> 00:24:07,490 sentiments still stay and remain. And I often think of 399 00:24:07,490 --> 00:24:10,050 that when I hear that, that counter critique. So like, yes, 400 00:24:10,050 --> 00:24:14,835 it would be great if Josh and Daniel Larson and these other 401 00:24:14,835 --> 00:24:18,195 creators who, you know, appear to be disabled and occupy the 402 00:24:18,195 --> 00:24:20,035 Lolcows status. It would be great if they couldn't be 403 00:24:20,035 --> 00:24:23,795 exploited, but also, do we have other infrastructure for them? 404 00:24:23,795 --> 00:24:26,720 And the answer is no. Mhmm. Daniel Larson's incarcerated. So 405 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,560 that that was the infrastructure for him. 406 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,000 Jason Oberholtzer: I think it's really interesting that you 407 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,280 bring up the shift in accessibility here around COVID 408 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,200 nineteen and after that. Because in many ways, I'm thinking that 409 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,815 this mirrors other sorts of online behavior and indeed like 410 00:24:44,815 --> 00:24:50,175 online mindsets and politics that mainstream themselves after 411 00:24:50,175 --> 00:24:53,295 COVID. In particular, I'm thinking of another quote from 412 00:24:53,615 --> 00:24:56,870 your paper here. It says, Bloch's popularity is not 413 00:24:56,870 --> 00:25:01,030 related to inclusion, diversity, or agency. His disability is a 414 00:25:01,030 --> 00:25:04,230 resource which platforms and other creators can extract from 415 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:07,910 in a political moment where disabled people are openly 416 00:25:07,910 --> 00:25:08,790 dehumanized. 417 00:25:09,325 --> 00:25:12,365 Engaging both theoretical analysis and close readings of 418 00:25:12,365 --> 00:25:15,565 sample livestream recordings and other social media artifacts, I 419 00:25:15,565 --> 00:25:18,445 suggest that authoritarian politics and eugenics shape 420 00:25:18,445 --> 00:25:22,605 platform economies, ultimately rendering Lolcows creators into 421 00:25:22,605 --> 00:25:28,310 digital freak shows. I would love to know more of the detail 422 00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:32,070 you found on some of those close readings, and and in particular, 423 00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:37,910 where you think this political energy comes from in the 424 00:25:37,910 --> 00:25:39,190 discourse around these creators. 425 00:25:39,915 --> 00:25:42,715 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. Absolutely. So this is this 426 00:25:42,715 --> 00:25:45,835 research is part of a book I'm working on about algorithmic 427 00:25:45,835 --> 00:25:49,915 ableism and creator culture. And so I to understand algorithmic 428 00:25:49,915 --> 00:25:54,060 ableism as ableist attitudes, values, and politics that shape 429 00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:58,140 our on offline working culture and public life and cultural 430 00:25:58,140 --> 00:26:01,260 life. And what happens when they those ideas now begin to shape 431 00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:02,540 how we work on platforms? 432 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:02,860 Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. 433 00:26:02,860 --> 00:26:05,260 Jess Rauchberg: And it's not just disabled creators are 434 00:26:05,260 --> 00:26:09,340 censored, but also how do we treat each other? And I think 435 00:26:09,995 --> 00:26:14,075 about some of our reactions to COVID nineteen that that 436 00:26:14,075 --> 00:26:20,475 centered anti mask politics or also thinking about some of the 437 00:26:20,475 --> 00:26:24,450 intersections between the Black Lives Matter resurgence in 2020 438 00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:26,530 in The United States and elsewhere alongside COVID 439 00:26:26,530 --> 00:26:29,330 nineteen, we had this moment where it seemed like, wow, we're 440 00:26:29,330 --> 00:26:32,690 having a cultural shift. We are starting to think about race and 441 00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:37,035 structural violences or or or political oppression in way 442 00:26:37,035 --> 00:26:40,075 where maybe we can change something, where maybe the world 443 00:26:40,075 --> 00:26:43,115 can be more accessible across, you know, political 444 00:26:43,115 --> 00:26:46,235 demographics. And I I don't mean necessarily how you vote, but 445 00:26:46,235 --> 00:26:48,795 how you move through the role Sure. Race, gender, sexuality, 446 00:26:48,795 --> 00:26:50,075 class, disability, etcetera. 447 00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:55,220 And then that did not happen. And I I think about TikTok, for 448 00:26:55,220 --> 00:27:00,660 example, which was accused of in in 2019 and 2020 of of asking 449 00:27:00,660 --> 00:27:04,020 their content moderators to train the For You recommendation 450 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:09,185 infrastructure to censor disabled creators and their 451 00:27:09,185 --> 00:27:11,665 response was, well, we're trying to prevent cyber bullying, we 452 00:27:11,665 --> 00:27:14,945 don't do that. And then they had all these events to support 453 00:27:14,945 --> 00:27:17,985 diversity, equity, and inclusion. But then, that's not 454 00:27:17,985 --> 00:27:21,260 really what's reflected on the platform. And, you know, we see 455 00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:24,620 this this rhetoric, this mouthpiece of, well, we look at 456 00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:26,540 all these things that we're doing, but then it doesn't 457 00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:27,500 actually change. 458 00:27:27,980 --> 00:27:32,860 In terms of of disability, that has has become, I think, more 459 00:27:32,860 --> 00:27:37,075 and more pronounced. And it's also platforms reflect and and 460 00:27:37,075 --> 00:27:40,195 are shaped by, and media more generally is shaped by the 461 00:27:40,195 --> 00:27:42,915 political environment we're in. Mhmm. And I promise I'm I'm 462 00:27:42,915 --> 00:27:46,515 coming full circle here. I also think the ways that we not 463 00:27:46,515 --> 00:27:50,675 having in person communities and relying on the digital for so 464 00:27:50,675 --> 00:27:54,460 long during lockdowns and and during the majority of the COVID 465 00:27:54,460 --> 00:27:57,100 nineteen pandemic, I think that changed how we interacted with 466 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:01,340 each other where we think of our interactions as more 467 00:28:01,340 --> 00:28:04,220 transactional, more exploitable. 468 00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:10,335 And my argument in in this book project is not that it's just 469 00:28:10,335 --> 00:28:12,895 disabled creators. The way we treat disabled creators can 470 00:28:12,895 --> 00:28:15,855 actually teach us a lot about how we're treating each other 471 00:28:15,855 --> 00:28:18,815 online. And Mhmm. I think in environments where there's 472 00:28:18,815 --> 00:28:22,340 little room for context or nuance, it becomes really easy 473 00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:28,740 to respond with hate or to respond with animosity or to 474 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:32,420 think of people as I think of this idea that now we all 475 00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:33,700 consider each other NPCs. 476 00:28:34,025 --> 00:28:34,425 Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. 477 00:28:34,425 --> 00:28:36,665 Jess Rauchberg: And that's not a good thing if we are not 478 00:28:36,665 --> 00:28:40,185 thinking about that's a human on the other side. So we the the 479 00:28:40,185 --> 00:28:43,705 TLDR of algorithmic ableism and this idea about how does 480 00:28:43,705 --> 00:28:47,470 disability shape the creator economy, it shows us how ableism 481 00:28:47,470 --> 00:28:51,070 is pretty pervasive in creator culture because now we don't see 482 00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:52,910 people on the other side of the screen as human. 483 00:29:14,055 --> 00:29:16,300 Jason Oberholtzer: You know, speaking from my own experience, 484 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:21,100 I find these videos difficult to engage with. I have never really 485 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:25,660 gone to the livestream itself and taken it in raw. They feel 486 00:29:25,660 --> 00:29:29,235 cruel to me, but also it's it feels more complicated than 487 00:29:29,235 --> 00:29:32,995 that. Like, can't just sit on, oh, this is cruel and bad. It is 488 00:29:32,995 --> 00:29:38,995 like interactive and human, and to me at least complicated in 489 00:29:38,995 --> 00:29:41,235 who is gaining what, where, and why this is happening. 490 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,440 And so perhaps, like, it's not, to me, at least, simple enough 491 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,280 to just say, this is an exhibition of cruelty. 492 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,480 Jess Rauchberg: For sure. There's an inhumanity to it, and 493 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,815 I think it begs us to ask, do we see and again, not every locale 494 00:29:56,815 --> 00:30:00,975 is disabled, but many of them are perceived to be or are. Do 495 00:30:00,975 --> 00:30:02,815 we see disabled people as humans? 496 00:30:02,815 --> 00:30:04,335 Jason Oberholtzer: It's striking me that maybe that 497 00:30:04,335 --> 00:30:07,535 dehumanization cuts both ways though. Don't these people have 498 00:30:07,535 --> 00:30:12,150 the agency to engage in the marketplace of content creation 499 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:16,310 and be subjugated to an audience's reaction? And it 500 00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:19,510 would be cruel to, like, assume that they don't have the agency 501 00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:22,310 or sufficient agency to participate like that? 502 00:30:22,715 --> 00:30:24,955 Jess Rauchberg: This is why I'm a little bit reticent to say, 503 00:30:24,955 --> 00:30:28,475 it's just cool. And, yes, there are many ways that we interact 504 00:30:28,475 --> 00:30:31,035 with Lolcows creators that are really cruel and really 505 00:30:31,035 --> 00:30:35,755 horrible. But at the same time, as shitty as that might be, it 506 00:30:35,755 --> 00:30:40,550 also is wrong to deny that these creators have agency. That even 507 00:30:40,550 --> 00:30:43,190 if that agency might be different than a, you know, a 508 00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:46,470 different type of creator or maybe more neurotypical or less 509 00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:50,070 exploitable creator, we're still all getting exploited by the 510 00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:51,910 creator economy and the platforms where 511 00:30:51,910 --> 00:30:52,310 Jason Oberholtzer: we work. 512 00:30:52,525 --> 00:30:54,845 Jess Rauchberg: The platforms encourage us to post a certain 513 00:30:54,845 --> 00:30:57,565 way, behave a certain way with how we interact with other 514 00:30:57,565 --> 00:31:01,805 people. And and I see this all the time, not just with disabled 515 00:31:01,805 --> 00:31:06,685 content creators or locale creators. And so I think to say 516 00:31:06,685 --> 00:31:13,060 that it's okay to treat locals like this is cruel, but it's 517 00:31:13,060 --> 00:31:17,380 also another type of cruelty to then believe that they don't 518 00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:19,860 have any agency or they're not making choices Right. Because 519 00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:24,260 they are. They just may not be choices we ourselves would make. 520 00:31:24,555 --> 00:31:26,155 Jason Oberholtzer: And the cruelty is within the machine 521 00:31:26,155 --> 00:31:30,315 somewhat. This is not like, you know, an a non cruel platform 522 00:31:30,315 --> 00:31:33,675 wielded or weaponized in a very specific way towards somebody. 523 00:31:33,675 --> 00:31:37,835 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. It becomes part of what we would call in 524 00:31:37,835 --> 00:31:41,360 social media research platforms, logics, meaning that, you know, 525 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,720 when we post on Instagram, we're gonna post a certain way. And 526 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,800 sometimes that's at our own expense. And to do that is to 527 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,040 also be part of this community and to connect with other 528 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,635 people. But that means we're gonna style ourselves in a way 529 00:31:53,635 --> 00:31:55,955 that might not feel right or might feel icky. 530 00:31:55,955 --> 00:31:59,315 It might feel wrong. And yet, if we don't do it, are we really 531 00:31:59,315 --> 00:32:03,395 part of something? So it is beyond these particular 532 00:32:03,395 --> 00:32:05,075 interactions. It impacts all of us. 533 00:32:05,550 --> 00:32:06,910 Jason Oberholtzer: Do you think that there's things that the 534 00:32:06,910 --> 00:32:09,790 platforms could be doing, or does this ultimately boil down 535 00:32:09,790 --> 00:32:13,550 to human nature apparently, you know, millennia of human nature, 536 00:32:13,790 --> 00:32:16,350 where just this is an impulse that a lot of people have? 537 00:32:16,590 --> 00:32:19,470 Jess Rauchberg: Yeah. I I think this is a great question, Jason. 538 00:32:19,470 --> 00:32:23,445 I think this is a larger issue with the creator economy. Mhmm. 539 00:32:23,445 --> 00:32:26,805 You know, we have about a 162,000,000 Americans who 540 00:32:26,805 --> 00:32:30,005 identify as creators working in some capacity, whether they're 541 00:32:30,005 --> 00:32:33,285 streamers, bloggers, influencers, or or making other 542 00:32:33,285 --> 00:32:36,740 kinds of of digitally shared content. 543 00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:40,020 This is a late type of labor and work where there's no union. 544 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:45,060 There's no protections. And thinking as well of the 1996 545 00:32:45,060 --> 00:32:47,700 Telecommunications Act in section, I think it's section 546 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:50,715 two thirty, which, you know, the 30 something words that change 547 00:32:50,715 --> 00:32:52,875 the Internet, where basically the platform is just hosting 548 00:32:52,875 --> 00:32:55,435 your content. They're not responsible for you. So they can 549 00:32:55,435 --> 00:32:56,555 wipe their hands. 550 00:32:56,955 --> 00:33:00,795 I don't know if that needs to change because if we do sunset 551 00:33:00,795 --> 00:33:04,700 this section of the law, that can create some pretty dangerous 552 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:08,700 things for creators. But I do think that having ways to 553 00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:12,140 protect and ways to regulate content creators is helpful 554 00:33:12,140 --> 00:33:15,340 because it's not just these local creators that are getting 555 00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:18,875 exploited or even visibly marginalized creators who are 556 00:33:18,875 --> 00:33:20,875 getting exploited. We all get exploited by the creator 557 00:33:20,875 --> 00:33:24,235 economy, even those who are at the top. And creative labor is 558 00:33:24,235 --> 00:33:27,675 interesting because it is sold to you with the promise of 559 00:33:27,675 --> 00:33:30,955 optimization and advancement and aspirational labor. If I work 560 00:33:30,955 --> 00:33:33,420 really hard now to do this, I can go viral. 561 00:33:33,420 --> 00:33:35,660 I can make it big and I can make a living out of this. And you 562 00:33:35,660 --> 00:33:38,620 know, some people do make a lot of money and they're able to 563 00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:46,540 segue that into more substantial forms of work. But many of 564 00:33:44,395 --> 00:33:46,955 specifically Josh's audience, speculate that in a couple 565 00:33:46,955 --> 00:33:50,795 years, he might be homeless and on the street Mhmm. When when 566 00:33:50,795 --> 00:33:53,515 all of this dries up. I don't think the creator economy is 567 00:33:53,515 --> 00:33:54,235 going away. 568 00:33:54,235 --> 00:33:57,435 It's such a powerful media industry at this point that it 569 00:33:57,435 --> 00:34:00,570 it will change and it will go through shifts. But I do think 570 00:34:00,570 --> 00:34:05,770 that that it's here to stay and in order for it to be successful 571 00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:10,810 and for people to thrive as much as they can in it, they are 572 00:34:10,810 --> 00:34:14,570 going to need protections. We're gonna need unions. We're going 573 00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:18,295 to need a creator bill of rights. And I wonder if we had 574 00:34:18,295 --> 00:34:21,495 those kinds of infrastructures in place, Josh and other 575 00:34:21,495 --> 00:34:23,815 creators like him might have a really different experience. 576 00:34:24,055 --> 00:34:26,855 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I would speculate that a fair amount of 577 00:34:26,855 --> 00:34:31,890 the intrigue, the draw of the Lolcows as a set of streamers is 578 00:34:31,890 --> 00:34:35,650 a certain sense of there but for the grace of God go I. And I 579 00:34:35,650 --> 00:34:39,650 think that is especially true when you narrow it down to the 580 00:34:39,650 --> 00:34:44,735 creator economy. With all these stresses, all the reward 581 00:34:44,735 --> 00:34:49,215 structures put in place, all the enabling features of the creator 582 00:34:49,215 --> 00:34:53,855 economy, truly, this is an outcome that seems like 583 00:34:54,015 --> 00:34:58,175 predictable and almost undeniable if you get too close 584 00:34:58,175 --> 00:34:59,375 to the center of that economy. 585 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,280 Jess Rauchberg: I I think that's spot on and at the end of the 586 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,240 day, platform these platform companies, because again, their 587 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:09,080 domains are are legally, at least in The United States, only 588 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,440 really entitled to host our work and they profit off of our 589 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,695 attention. So the more time we spend looking at Josh or looking 590 00:35:16,695 --> 00:35:20,455 at any creator, at the end of yes, we might be lining those 591 00:35:20,455 --> 00:35:23,015 creators pockets, but we're really lining that that 592 00:35:23,015 --> 00:35:26,455 platform's pockets because they profit off of our attention. 593 00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:38,510 Jason Oberholtzer: Let's endeavor to have you, Jess 594 00:35:38,510 --> 00:35:41,805 Rosberg, profit off of some attention as well. Where can 595 00:35:41,805 --> 00:35:46,125 people find you assuming you wanna be found on the Internet? 596 00:35:47,005 --> 00:35:49,725 Jess Rauchberg: I am very much on the Internet. I am on 597 00:35:49,725 --> 00:35:53,965 Instagram and blue sky under Jess Rauschberg, full name, all 598 00:35:53,965 --> 00:35:58,210 one word, and always happy to connect with listeners and and 599 00:35:58,210 --> 00:36:01,330 those who are interested in these things that occupy our 600 00:36:01,330 --> 00:36:02,370 minds on the Internet. 601 00:36:02,370 --> 00:36:04,130 Jason Oberholtzer: Well, thank you so much for coming in, Jess. 602 00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:05,410 Jess Rauchberg: Thank you so much for having me. 603 00:36:21,805 --> 00:36:24,445 Mike Rugnetta: That is the show we have for you this week. We 604 00:36:24,445 --> 00:36:28,470 are gonna be back here on the main feed on or around Thursday, 605 00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:40,905 April 2. Hey, can I borrow $4 every month indefinitely? Head 606 00:36:40,905 --> 00:36:45,945 to neverpo.st to become a member. Never Post's producers 607 00:36:45,945 --> 00:36:49,065 are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious 608 00:36:49,065 --> 00:36:50,585 doctor first name, last name. 609 00:36:50,585 --> 00:36:54,240 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is 610 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:57,760 Jason Oberholzer and the show's host, that's me, is Mike 611 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:05,520 Rugnetta. The world is between tips. We say so to know. We go 612 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,935 look over or out to its pivot, to its wobble and drift. 613 00:37:12,775 --> 00:37:20,455 Terrible. We are leaving. Excerpt of 39, The Polar Circle 614 00:37:20,455 --> 00:37:24,200 by Lynn Hajianian. Never Post is a production of Charts and 615 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,480 Leisure and is distributed by Radiotopia.