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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello,
and welcome to Never Post, a

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podcast for and about the
Internet. I'm your host, Mike

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Rugnetta, and this intro was
written on Tuesday, 07/29/2025

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at 09:34AM eastern. We have a
fresh episode for you today. I

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talk with media and
communications researcher Emily

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Owens and Ryan Broderick of
Garbage Day and Panic World

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about brain rot. Then Hans talks
with four librarians about their

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work rescuing and preserving
datasets that are under threat

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by the United States government.

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And also on ask an expert, we
talk with on the media's own,

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Micah Loeinger. But right now,
we're gonna take a quick break.

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You'll listen to some ads unless
you're on the member feed. And

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when we return, we're gonna talk
about a few of the things that

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have happened since the last
time you heard from us. Man,

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it's a hot one, like five
stories this week from the

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midday sun.

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The Internet Archive is now a
federal depository library. What

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does this mean? It means it's a
library that will house federal

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documents. Writing for KQED,
Morgan Sung, who you'll remember

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from our hantai segment, writes
that the Internet Archive,

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quote, will join a network of
more than a thousand libraries

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around the country tasked with
archiving government documents

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for public view. The status is
particularly notable, some

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continues, as the Trump
administration has

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systematically removed
information from federal

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websites under new anti woke
executive orders.

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Archive visitors will now have
access to primary government

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sources in addition to materials
uploaded by users or saved

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through accessible websites, end
quote. You're gonna hear Hans

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talk more about this sort of
thing this episode. You stopped

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clicking things when you Google.
Pew Research finds that only 8%

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of people are likely to click on
search results if they are shown

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an AI summary of those results
compared to 15% who are not

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shown an AI summary.
Furthermore, folks shown AI

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summaries are more likely to
simply close the browser window

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after their search versus those
who are not.

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Pew says about one in five
searches in their study produced

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an AI summary.

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Clip: Oh, man.

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Mike Rugnetta: Hackers leaked
data they stole from Tee, the

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women only dating safety app,
twice at the time of writing.

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Four zero four media reports it
was able to access millions of

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messages containing sensitive
data drawn from what is

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nominally an anonymous platform.
Highly personal details

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including names, addresses,
phone numbers, social media

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handles, and as one might
expect, hellishly hot gossip are

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all included. It's unclear who
else may have discovered the

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security issue and downloaded
any data from the more recent

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database, four zero four media
rights, continuing members of

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4chan found the first exposed
database last week and made tens

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of thousands of images of t
users available for download. T

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told four zero four media it has
contacted law enforcement, end

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quote.

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Okay. Deep breath before this
next one. Itch, the indie games

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publisher, last week search
banned its sizable offering of

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not safe for work and otherwise
explicit games. Also removing

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them from browse functionality
and restricting the sale of many

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with almost no warning to game
makers and publishers. This

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because of pressure from payment
processors like PayPal and

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Stripe following pressure they
received from a very small group

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of Australian based activists
calling themselves collective

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shout, which self describes as a
grassroots campaigns movement

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against the objectification of
women and the sexualization of

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girls.

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IGN reports that users estimate
nearly 20,000 adult games may be

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affected by this de indexing. On
July 24, Itch released a

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statement reading in part, our
ability to process payments is

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critical for every creator on
our platform. To ensure that we

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can continue to operate and
provide a marketplace for all

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developers, we must prioritize
our relationship with our

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payment partners and take
immediate step towards

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compliance. An update posted on
the twenty eighth further

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elaborates saying that to retain
the ability to pay anyone, Itch

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will be working on stronger age
gating, more specific terms of

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service, and will begin a search
for more lenient payment

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processors. There's a grassroots
counter campaign underway

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seeking to exert equal force in
the opposite direction on

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payment processors.

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We're gonna put a link to more
information about that in the

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show notes if you're curious.
And finally, polling by YouGov

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shows a majority of respondents
and 60% of those aged 18 to 24

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in Europe would prefer locally
based social media platforms

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over current US based options. I
wonder why. Recently, a number

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of developers have launched
EuroSky, a European alternative

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to BlueSky. Its website reads,
built in Europe, run on our

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cloud, ruled by our laws.

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Users choose the content,
businesses control their brand

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environment, people control the
algorithms. Social media is

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crucial infrastructure and a
vital piece of the European tech

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sovereignty agenda. We need to
regain structural control over

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our information ecosystems, end
quote. Developers include Sherif

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El Sayed Ali, the executive
director of the Future of

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Technology Institute, a self
described think and do tank, as

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well as Sebastian Voglesong,
developer of the AT Proto

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compatible photo sharing app
Flashes. In show news this week,

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we released a funding
announcement one upload ago.

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If you missed it, please go back
and give it a listen. But the

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long and short is we're about to
do some fundraising to assure

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that we will be able to continue
making this show past the 2025.

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What does that mean? It means
that you should keep an eye out

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for T shirts and a live streamed
membership drive, which is

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happening the week of August 18,
so please put that in your

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calendars. We're gonna release a
more detailed schedule in the

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coming weeks, that's what I can
tell you so far.

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Week of August 18, we're gonna
be doing a bunch of stuff. I

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think that Thursday is gonna be
particularly busy. Hey. Also,

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just as an aside here, the
response to the funding

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announcement has been sort of
unbelievable, honestly. Welcome

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to a bunch of new members
listening to the show in the ad

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free feed.

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We are extremely happy and
excited to have you. And to

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everyone who sent us along a
tip, it is so so, so appreciated

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and extremely helpful. I can't
even be begin to say how much. I

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think we're you know, it's a
tough time to be an indie show

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doing the weird sorts of things
that we do, and so far, your

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response to us asking for help
is just it's incredibly

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encouraging. So thank you,
really.

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Thank you. Thank you. Alright.
That's the news I have for

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you this week. In this week's
episode, Hans, Jenny, Kate,

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Molly,

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and Linda on tactical archiving.
Then me, Emily, and Ryan on

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Brain Rot. But first, in our
interstitials this week, we're

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gonna talk with Micah Loeinger
of On the Media and get his

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expert opinion on what happens
now that the US government has

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drastically cut funding to the
Corporation for Public

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Broadcasting. Michael Lowinger,
thank you so much for joining us

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on Ask An Expert. You are truly
an expert.

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You are the cohost of WNYC's On
the Media, a nationally

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syndicated public radio show
that can be heard on over 400

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stations across the country. You
worked as a producer and then as

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On the Media's first staff
reporter, and your investigative

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and human interest stories have
focused on political extremism,

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Internet culture, and the
evolution of the news industry.

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You have won the John m Higgins
Award for best in-depth slash

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enterprise reporting. You were a
finalist for Third Coast's best

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news feature, a finalist for a
Livingston award, and a finalist

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for a Mirror award for best
commentary. In 2019, the New

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York Times wrote about your
experiment on the use of

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restorative justice in
moderating the Internet's

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largest Christian forum.

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Your radio and written work has
appeared in The Washington Post,

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The Guardian, NPR, Death, Sex,
and Money, and Gothamist. You

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have worked in public media,
reported on public media, and

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are now the host of a public
media show about media. On July

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18, Congress passed house
resolution four, which took back

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1,100,000,000 that had already
been allocated via legislation

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to fund the Corporation for
Public Broadcasting. This money

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was slated to go from the CPB to
local public media radio and TV

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stations in all 50 states. And
despite two thirds of Americans

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supporting the use of that money
in that way, Congress has now

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eliminated federal funding for
public media.

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Is this defunding going to
change the American media

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landscape?

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Micah Loewinger: Yes.

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Hans Buetow: Alright. Here we
go. Wilson Lever, U of M. As the

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clock tolls noon. Isn't that
exciting?

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Okay. Here go. Here we go. Here
we go. A recent, gorgeous July

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afternoon, I was very on time,
no big deal, for an appointment

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to meet a trio of librarians.

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Hello. Hello. Hello. Hi.

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Jenny McBurney: Jenny. Jenny.
Yeah. Welcome.

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Hans Buetow: Thank you.

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Jenny McBurney: Go find our
room.

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Hans Buetow: Thank you. Thank
you. Thank you. I love a

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library. I love a library.

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There's just this feeling when
you walk in like, I'm smarter

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with all of this collected info
around me. Like, these resources

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and ideas are available to me.
Could just grab them, take them

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in, and synthesize them all for
free.

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Jenny McBurney: So this is what
we were thinking. Yeah. It

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sounds weird in here. It's so
quiet.

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Hans Buetow: Good. Perfect.
Change anything.

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Jenny McBurney: I can

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Hans Buetow: Love it.

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Jenny McBurney: Want tables or
chairs or

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Hans Buetow: whatever they want.
This is great. We got plenty of

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chairs. I'm gonna have us all
sit awkwardly close to each

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other That's fine. Because
that's just

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Jenny McBurney: I'll sit way
back.

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Hans Buetow: How we do. Yeah.
And even though it's the middle

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of summer and this university
library is basically empty, it

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feels very cool. I mean, maybe
even more cool to be hanging out

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with three librarians.

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Jenny McBurney: I'm Jenny
McBurney. I am the government

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publications librarian here at
the University of Minnesota Twin

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Cities. Mainly, my job is to
steward our collection and make

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sure that the public has access
to government information.

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Kate Sheridan: I'm Kate
Sheridan. I'm the publishing

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librarian at the University of
Minnesota Twin Cities, and I run

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the library's scholarly
publishing program.

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Molly Blake: I'm Molly Blake.
I'm a social sciences librarian

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at the University of Minnesota.
And along with Jenny and some

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other fabulous people, I helped
launch the Tracking Gov Info

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Project.

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Hans Buetow: The Tracking
Government Information Project?

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That's why I'm here. Jenny,
Kate, and Molly, they'll help

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run it along with Sangah Sung of
University of Illinois Urbana

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Champaign and Ben Amada from
California State University in

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Sacramento. So these five
librarians and their project,

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which tracks what changes are
being made to the public

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information online, is a
volunteer effort that is just

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one of a group of volunteer
efforts that are currently on

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the front lines of data and
information rescue and

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preservation. There have been
data rescue efforts in play for

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literally thousands of years,
from the burning of the library

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of Zimri Lim in ancient
Mesopotamia, the destruction of

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the Maya codices by Diego de
Landa in 1532.

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You've got the deliberate arson
of US Library of Congress in

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1812. You got lots of libraries
destroyed in World War two.

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Information has always and is
always at risk of being lost,

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and part of the work of
librarians is to make sure that

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it isn't.

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Jenny McBurney: So there's
always been librarians and

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members of the public who want
to help to preserve government

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information, and there's super
long standing efforts to make

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that happen.

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Hans Buetow: But this year feels
different. This year, The US has

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entered what for it is a new era
of information threat. Alright.

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So I'm gonna start. I'm gonna
read you all a headline, and

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then I'm gonna ask you what this
headline makes you think of, how

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it makes you feel.

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This is from 03/20/2025,
04:48PM, from Politico. Trump

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signs executive order to
dismantle education department.

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You all work in information
sciences in the library. And so

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when you read that, you open up
your paper. What people don't do

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that anymore.

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You open up your browser. And
you read that. What like, what

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do you think from your
perspective as librarians, as

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data information folks?

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Jenny McBurney: I mean, my first
thought is, is that legal? My

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second thought then is, uh-oh.
Where is all of the stuff that

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those people are working on
gonna go? Is it gonna disappear?

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Are we not gonna have access to
that those reports, that data,

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any of that stuff anymore?

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Molly Blake: And the Department
of Education produces just an

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amazing amount of data that is
used by grant writers, that's

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used by researchers. I think
right away of the Institute for

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Educational Sciences, which is
in charge of ERIC, which is

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probably the most popular
educational database of

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scholarly articles and gray
literature, conference papers,

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things that are extremely useful
for educational researchers.

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Hans Buetow: ERIC, the Education
Resources Information Center,

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00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:25,975
ERIC, is a searchable online
database of about 2,000,000

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00:15:25,975 --> 00:15:29,575
pieces of education research.
Molly and her social sciences

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colleagues rely on ERIC.

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Molly Blake: I work with a lot
of researchers that do

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systematic reviews and evidence
synthesis. So they have a topic

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and their goal is maybe their
topic is reading in third grade,

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for example. And they then want
to figure out what is everything

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that has been published over the
years on this topic. Because of

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the cuts of the Department of
Education, ERIC is likely not

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going to be indexing the same
number of journals. It's gonna

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be cut by almost half in years
to come.

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Hans Buetow: Which means the
researchers that are relying on

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00:16:01,045 --> 00:16:05,600
it can't go back and replicate
their searches, and you lose not

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00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,760
just the materials, but the
metadata, the indexing of

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00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,240
information, where the
information is stored, how it's

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discovered. There's just gonna
be less to find. But it also

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means that there's gonna be
downstream effects. Here's Kate

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Sheridan.

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Kate Sheridan: Eric feeds into
so many other things. Right?

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Eric records get pulled into
commercial databases. Eric

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00:16:24,615 --> 00:16:28,455
records get pulled into Google
Scholar. If Eric is affected,

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many other things are affected
as well.

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If the researchers who come to
Mali are gonna have their

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systematic reviews impacted by
this, that's literally going to

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reshape the knowledge we're able
to have moving forward. That's

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going to reshape our ability to
make new discoveries, to make

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progress, to innovate. Like, you
have to look at what's been

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00:16:49,695 --> 00:16:53,375
previously done, design a new
experiment, test it, report back

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00:16:53,375 --> 00:16:56,015
on it, and other people will
read it and design new

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00:16:56,015 --> 00:16:58,015
experiments. We're gonna be
missing part of that.

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00:17:00,110 --> 00:17:02,750
Molly Blake: Once we lose that
information, we lose the ability

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to understand things about
issues such as school

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segregation, issues such as
equity. It's taking away data

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that people can use to make
education better for everyone.

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00:17:21,365 --> 00:17:23,925
Jenny McBurney: So what was
happening in the early days of

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00:17:23,925 --> 00:17:27,820
the Trump administration is that
librarians started getting

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00:17:27,820 --> 00:17:31,020
questions from researchers
saying, my article's gone. Why

280
00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:33,900
is it gone? Help. Other people
were saying, wait, this dataset

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00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:36,540
that I was using is gone. What
do I do?

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How do I find it? How do I
complete my research project?

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00:17:39,325 --> 00:17:41,805
And there was a super
interesting article, which I

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brought along today just in
case, from The Lancet that was

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00:17:45,245 --> 00:17:50,525
talking about how an important
part of this data is

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00:17:50,525 --> 00:17:53,900
transparency. In normal
practices, if you make a change

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00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:57,660
to something, you document it.
You say, this was changed to

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00:17:57,660 --> 00:17:58,220
this.

289
00:17:58,540 --> 00:18:01,580
But that's not what's happening
here. Changes are just happening

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00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:04,620
without anyone knowing, without
any documentation, without any

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00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:08,355
recording. How do we even know
what's an accurate dataset

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00:18:08,355 --> 00:18:09,155
anymore?

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00:18:14,675 --> 00:18:18,275
Hans Buetow: So Jenny, Kate,
Molly, and their colleagues

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00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:22,390
started the tracking government
information project, which is a

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00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:26,390
crowdsourced spreadsheet that
helps everyone be able to track

296
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:29,990
what's being changed on any
federal websites and where you

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00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:33,110
can go to find what it used to
say before the changes.

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00:18:33,625 --> 00:18:35,465
Jenny McBurney: Say, okay. I'm
looking for everything relating

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00:18:35,465 --> 00:18:38,505
to COVID. You can find
everything that has to do with

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00:18:38,505 --> 00:18:41,225
it. You can see which websites,
which documents have been

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00:18:41,225 --> 00:18:45,785
removed, and find where it is
pointing you to. So where is the

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00:18:45,785 --> 00:18:49,170
preserved copy of the covid.gov
website, for example.

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00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:53,810
Molly Blake: And part of what
we're doing in addition to

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00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:56,130
pointing people to preserved
copies, which is super

305
00:18:56,130 --> 00:19:00,225
important, is we want to raise
awareness about the scope of

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00:19:00,225 --> 00:19:03,505
this problem. Like, what does it
mean that the Department of

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00:19:03,505 --> 00:19:07,345
Education may be dismantled?
What information is being

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00:19:07,345 --> 00:19:10,465
collected? What is their
expertise? What types of work do

309
00:19:10,465 --> 00:19:11,185
they do?

310
00:19:11,585 --> 00:19:14,520
Because even if we can preserve
information that goes away, what

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00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,560
we can't do is we can't write a
report that's not going to get

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00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:18,600
written this year.

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00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:22,440
Jenny McBurney: That's one of

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00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,520
Kate Sheridan: the things that
stresses me out the most. I

315
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,160
think there was, like, two weeks
when the mortality weekly report

316
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,655
didn't come out. It's the
morbidity and mortality weekly

317
00:19:32,655 --> 00:19:37,055
report. The MMWR is intended to
publish information that is

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00:19:37,055 --> 00:19:40,175
timely and related to public
health. So if there was, like,

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00:19:40,175 --> 00:19:40,495
an E.

320
00:19:40,495 --> 00:19:43,695
Coli outbreak happening and they
had some new information about

321
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,200
the outbreak source or about
something to do with the actual,

322
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,760
like, B. Coli bacterium,
something to do with that, you

323
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,600
could find that in the MMWR. And
so we don't know what was lost

324
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,115
necessarily, not just because
the articles weren't published,

325
00:19:59,115 --> 00:20:01,675
but because we don't necessarily
know what they were about.

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00:20:01,755 --> 00:20:04,235
Jenny McBurney: We will never
get those two weeks back. We

327
00:20:04,235 --> 00:20:07,355
will never get those reports
back. That is a seventy year old

328
00:20:07,355 --> 00:20:12,060
dataset that has a gap for the
rest of eternity. Even if

329
00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:15,180
everything was snap fixed
tomorrow moving forward, that's

330
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:17,580
never gonna come back. That's
gone forever.

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00:20:17,660 --> 00:20:21,100
It it was never created because
people weren't able to create

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00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:21,260
it.

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00:20:25,705 --> 00:20:28,425
Hans Buetow: This was a big
revelation for me in

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00:20:28,425 --> 00:20:32,265
understanding all of the layers
to what's happening. It's not

335
00:20:32,345 --> 00:20:35,385
just that we need to be
concerned with the data being

336
00:20:35,545 --> 00:20:39,660
actively taken out of the public
view, but also the impact of the

337
00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:44,460
government efficiencies in heavy
scare quotes that have all

338
00:20:44,460 --> 00:20:47,660
eliminated data gathering by
shutting down research. They've

339
00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:51,260
canceled server contracts to
host and store the data, and

340
00:20:51,260 --> 00:20:56,295
they've fired the people with
the expertise that's needed to

341
00:20:56,295 --> 00:20:57,415
contextualize it.

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00:20:57,415 --> 00:21:00,695
Lynda Kellum: If I can't, like,
be assured that I'm gonna be

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00:21:00,695 --> 00:21:03,975
able to access this website
because those people aren't

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00:21:03,975 --> 00:21:07,895
there or the, you know, there
there's link issues or the API's

345
00:21:07,895 --> 00:21:11,530
down or the contract's been
ended, I wanna be able to access

346
00:21:11,530 --> 00:21:14,570
that data, and there's no reason
why people shouldn't be able to

347
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:15,690
access that data.

348
00:21:16,010 --> 00:21:19,290
Hans Buetow: This is Linda
Kellum. Linda is a data

349
00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:22,730
librarian with expertise in
qualitative data research and

350
00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:27,225
software. And Linda is a leader
in the field of data rescue, so

351
00:21:27,225 --> 00:21:31,545
much so that just the mention of
her name Tamale prompted She's a

352
00:21:31,545 --> 00:21:33,545
big deal. She's a big deal.
She's a big deal.

353
00:21:33,545 --> 00:21:39,000
Yeah. I wanted to talk with
Linda in her capacity as

354
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,280
founding organizer of the Data
Rescue Project, which is a

355
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,600
volunteer group that works on
emergency archiving of datasets.

356
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,685
And I have to say I was a little
surprised. Maybe I shouldn't

357
00:21:51,685 --> 00:21:54,725
have been, but I was a little
surprised by Linda's reaction

358
00:21:54,725 --> 00:21:58,325
when I read her that March
headline, Trump signs executive

359
00:21:58,325 --> 00:22:00,805
order to dismantle education
department.

360
00:22:00,885 --> 00:22:03,685
Lynda Kellum: First thing I
thought about was I was happy

361
00:22:03,685 --> 00:22:06,860
that we had actually done
something. So in a lot of ways,

362
00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:10,940
I felt satisfaction at least we
had tried to do something. Wow.

363
00:22:10,940 --> 00:22:14,060
But you're you're right. I mean,
I it was it was it's also

364
00:22:14,060 --> 00:22:18,380
disheartening and it's really
dismaying to see, you know, that

365
00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:19,420
considered as something that

366
00:22:19,420 --> 00:22:20,715
Hans Buetow: could be thrown
away, You know, not

367
00:22:20,955 --> 00:22:24,635
Lynda Kellum: it's something
that's not worth preserving for

368
00:22:24,635 --> 00:22:25,515
the long term.

369
00:22:26,635 --> 00:22:31,195
Hans Buetow: That's a very
surprising answer to me. Not the

370
00:22:31,195 --> 00:22:34,570
second part. The second part is
kind of what I expected. Yeah.

371
00:22:35,370 --> 00:22:35,770
You know.

372
00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:38,410
It's made in things. Let's talk
about the first part of that

373
00:22:38,410 --> 00:22:42,010
answer, though, where you said
you felt satisfied that you had

374
00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:45,050
done work. When you say that as
a data librarian, when you say

375
00:22:45,050 --> 00:22:49,315
that as someone who works with a
data rescue project, what does

376
00:22:49,315 --> 00:22:52,515
that mean? What what work have
you done already when you read

377
00:22:52,515 --> 00:22:54,115
that announcement in in March?

378
00:22:54,195 --> 00:22:57,155
Lynda Kellum: For us, we were
just this was rapid response, so

379
00:22:57,155 --> 00:23:00,810
it was really just get what we
can. We knew that the Department

380
00:23:00,810 --> 00:23:04,410
of Education had a target on its
back and wanted to go ahead and

381
00:23:04,410 --> 00:23:06,010
do as much as we could at that
time.

382
00:23:06,010 --> 00:23:09,130
Hans Buetow: Was there anything
specific that that led you to

383
00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:11,450
see that target? Like, how did
you know that target was there?

384
00:23:11,845 --> 00:23:13,365
Lynda Kellum: Project twenty
twenty five.

385
00:23:13,365 --> 00:23:13,925
Hans Buetow: Oh, that was

386
00:23:14,085 --> 00:23:15,045
Lynda Kellum: that's the road
map.

387
00:23:15,045 --> 00:23:16,645
Hans Buetow: Oh, you mean they
told you?

388
00:23:16,645 --> 00:23:18,885
Lynda Kellum: Yeah. Yeah. They
told all of us what they were

389
00:23:18,885 --> 00:23:24,485
gonna do. So we were looking to
see where they had explicitly

390
00:23:24,885 --> 00:23:29,200
said it would target agencies.
We started with the Department

391
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:29,920
of Education.

392
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,200
That was the very first
department we even looked at,

393
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,920
just to figure out what data
sets would be publicly

394
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720
accessible for us to download
and preserve.

395
00:23:40,685 --> 00:23:43,725
Hans Buetow: The first step was
to understand what information

396
00:23:43,725 --> 00:23:45,245
they're even looking for.

397
00:23:45,565 --> 00:23:47,725
Lynda Kellum: And that's what we
did. We went, you know, with a

398
00:23:47,725 --> 00:23:52,445
spreadsheet and started
documenting inventorying, if you

399
00:23:52,445 --> 00:23:55,660
will, the different datasets and
surveys that were available on

400
00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:59,740
that website. What's there?
What's the size? What do we can

401
00:23:59,740 --> 00:24:00,220
we get it?

402
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:03,420
Are there alternative sources
that are not government based?

403
00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:07,165
Hans Buetow: As full a catalog
as possible was made of what

404
00:24:07,165 --> 00:24:11,085
needed rescuing, adding metadata
and documentation to everything.

405
00:24:11,085 --> 00:24:13,885
Lynda Kellum: We want everything
that's associated with that.

406
00:24:14,125 --> 00:24:19,085
Once we felt we had everything
we could find, we asked others,

407
00:24:19,085 --> 00:24:21,460
people who had expertise in
those areas to add additional

408
00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:25,780
datasets, and then we could
start the process of a rescue.

409
00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:29,780
Hans Buetow: Getting the actual
data can be either simple or

410
00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:33,940
complex. Some datasets, you can
just click and download. Easy

411
00:24:33,940 --> 00:24:38,695
peasy. Other datasets, not so
easy. Some are so big that they

412
00:24:38,695 --> 00:24:41,495
need to be scraped, and there
are others that are just

413
00:24:41,495 --> 00:24:42,455
idiosyncratic.

414
00:24:42,535 --> 00:24:45,015
Lynda Kellum: Department of
Education has this thing called

415
00:24:45,015 --> 00:24:49,560
the Data Lab, which has
wonderful data sets, but they're

416
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,760
all in tables and there are
about 900 tables for each data

417
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,840
set. And there's no way to
download the entire we just

418
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:04,115
can't get it out of the system.
There's no API access for it. So

419
00:25:04,595 --> 00:25:04,915
Right.

420
00:25:04,995 --> 00:25:05,475
Kate Sheridan: We've been
working

421
00:25:05,475 --> 00:25:07,315
Lynda Kellum: on projects where
we just go through and download

422
00:25:07,315 --> 00:25:09,235
each individual table.

423
00:25:09,635 --> 00:25:12,835
Hans Buetow: What? That's like
archaeology. That's like dusting

424
00:25:12,835 --> 00:25:15,555
dusting grains of sand in the
middle of a desert.

425
00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:19,940
Lynda Kellum: Yeah. It's it's
definitely tedious work, and I

426
00:25:19,940 --> 00:25:22,340
thank all of the volunteers
who've worked on it.

427
00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:26,740
Hans Buetow: Once data is
downloaded or scraped, it has to

428
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:30,165
go somewhere as quickly as
possible. Somewhere that has the

429
00:25:30,165 --> 00:25:33,685
space to store it, isn't
controlled by corporations in

430
00:25:33,685 --> 00:25:37,125
terms of service, and is
publicly accessible.

431
00:25:37,205 --> 00:25:40,245
Lynda Kellum: When we take the
dataset, we don't keep it. We

432
00:25:40,245 --> 00:25:45,070
put it into ICPSR's DataLumos,
which is a crowdsourced

433
00:25:45,070 --> 00:25:51,550
repository for public data. It
was in 2017 in response to

434
00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:55,550
concerns about the loss of
public data. And from there, it

435
00:25:55,550 --> 00:25:59,215
becomes publicly accessible
quite quickly and it has all the

436
00:25:59,215 --> 00:26:03,455
fields that are needed for
datasets to include the metadata

437
00:26:03,455 --> 00:26:06,815
in the documentation. The role
of ICPSR is long term

438
00:26:06,815 --> 00:26:11,935
preservation so that they can,
you know, help make ensure that

439
00:26:11,935 --> 00:26:15,520
that dataset, that package will
be accessible in the long term,

440
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,040
which is a very different thing
from just web crawling and, you

441
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,480
know, in mass amounts.

442
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,840
So it's a supplement to what
Internet Archive and others do,

443
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,160
but geared around data.

444
00:26:31,205 --> 00:26:33,925
Hans Buetow: So that's the
process that Data Rescue Project

445
00:26:33,925 --> 00:26:37,045
has been doing with the
Department of Education since

446
00:26:37,045 --> 00:26:42,530
February. But the Department of
Education are not the only ones

447
00:26:42,530 --> 00:26:46,130
who have been targeted across
the government. We have seen

448
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:49,490
huge changes to government
agencies like Health and Human

449
00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:53,650
Services, CDC, NOAA, Department
of the Interior, and some

450
00:26:53,650 --> 00:26:58,665
nongovernmental like USAID and
lots, lots more. This same

451
00:26:58,665 --> 00:27:03,785
crisis is happening all over the
government all at once, and all

452
00:27:03,785 --> 00:27:11,990
of it is in need of the same
levels of response. How how wide

453
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:13,270
is the aperture for this?

454
00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:15,590
Lynda Kellum: Yeah. I think
that's a great question and

455
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:18,390
something we're still figuring
out, certainly. Interesting.

456
00:27:18,390 --> 00:27:20,150
Hans Buetow: So, yeah, we don't
really have a sense?

457
00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:22,150
Lynda Kellum: Yeah. Because we
don't know like, somebody's

458
00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:26,775
asked us how much data have you
captured, and we don't have a

459
00:27:26,775 --> 00:27:29,495
way of knowing because there was
no one inventory for all the

460
00:27:29,495 --> 00:27:32,695
federal government data. Even
data.gov is not an inventory for

461
00:27:32,855 --> 00:27:37,210
and and data.gov has its own
issues. I think agency by

462
00:27:37,210 --> 00:27:41,050
agency, we have a sense of what
has happened. And, you know, in

463
00:27:41,050 --> 00:27:44,090
the coming months, this would be
a project we could do is look at

464
00:27:44,090 --> 00:27:48,650
the agency by agency and kind of
detail what has occurred.

465
00:27:48,650 --> 00:27:52,505
And but even then, it's it's it
may be office to office within

466
00:27:52,505 --> 00:27:56,265
an agency. So it's really
challenging to have a sense of

467
00:27:56,265 --> 00:27:58,985
kind of that whole picture at
this particular point in time.

468
00:28:00,185 --> 00:28:02,825
But in terms of scale, like, I
don't know at this point. I

469
00:28:02,825 --> 00:28:03,545
can't even say.

470
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:21,185
Hans Buetow: I find all of this
upsetting, not the efforts of

471
00:28:21,185 --> 00:28:24,385
all these wonderful people. That
is the only thing that's keeping

472
00:28:24,385 --> 00:28:27,985
me from just laying down on the
floor, letting the fates take

473
00:28:27,985 --> 00:28:32,945
me. What I find upsetting is
that all this work, all this

474
00:28:32,945 --> 00:28:37,540
data that we're scrambling to
save, it already belongs to us.

475
00:28:37,780 --> 00:28:42,260
Jenny McBurney: Yes. This is our
data. We are all it's it's for

476
00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:44,660
the people, by the people, of
the people. Right? Like, that's

477
00:28:44,660 --> 00:28:45,860
the whole point of our
government.

478
00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:49,685
And so the government creates
things for us and we have a

479
00:28:49,685 --> 00:28:51,285
right to access it. The role

480
00:28:51,285 --> 00:28:54,245
Lynda Kellum: of the federal
government really is to help us

481
00:28:54,245 --> 00:28:59,285
understand ourselves. That's I
believe. Right? It's it's the

482
00:28:59,285 --> 00:29:02,800
federal government is the only
real entity that can has the

483
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,560
mission to collect public data
and make it accessible to the

484
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,520
public. It's built into our
constitution that we take a

485
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,240
census.

486
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,800
Collecting data is is part of
our who we are.

487
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,120
Molly Blake: Certainly, a
democratic ideal is that we

488
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,605
should all have unfettered
access to information that then

489
00:29:17,605 --> 00:29:21,285
we're able to get and interpret
both as private citizens and in

490
00:29:21,285 --> 00:29:23,605
the work we do in any way that
we see fit.

491
00:29:24,325 --> 00:29:26,485
Lynda Kellum: It's how we hold
the government accountable. It's

492
00:29:26,485 --> 00:29:28,965
how we inform ourselves about
our communities. It's how we

493
00:29:28,965 --> 00:29:33,420
understand who we are as a
people. Yeah. Yes.

494
00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:37,660
That's an informed electorate is
a fundamental part of democracy.

495
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:45,340
One institution, my institution,
my my library can't replace that

496
00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:48,815
mission on the scale that the
government can do it. A private

497
00:29:48,815 --> 00:29:54,015
company can try, but their role
isn't to do that. Their role is

498
00:29:54,015 --> 00:29:59,055
to to make money. And so when it
comes to losing access to any of

499
00:29:59,055 --> 00:30:03,380
the public data that we've had,
it's a shame not just from a

500
00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:06,740
from a topic level in the sense
of this is what this Department

501
00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:10,980
of Education dataset is for, but
in a sense of of this is what

502
00:30:10,980 --> 00:30:12,340
the government should do.

503
00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:15,060
It is gather information about
us, help us understand

504
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:18,735
ourselves, help us be able to
project into the future about

505
00:30:18,735 --> 00:30:22,575
ourselves, help us build
services for our people. That's

506
00:30:22,575 --> 00:30:24,415
the role of the government in my
opinion.

507
00:30:26,895 --> 00:30:29,775
Hans Buetow: One of the hard
parts about this moment is that

508
00:30:29,775 --> 00:30:34,100
these ideals, which represent an
idea of how the country has been

509
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:39,940
run, maybe since it became a
country, these ideals are not at

510
00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:44,340
all being met by the actions of
the people who currently run it.

511
00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:49,015
And that means that, like Linda,
Kate, Molly, Jenny, the

512
00:30:49,015 --> 00:30:51,735
volunteers they work with, and
the teams building and running

513
00:30:52,055 --> 00:30:56,935
theirs and other data rescue
projects, these are the people

514
00:30:56,935 --> 00:31:00,970
working to build systems that
hold up our ideals and keep our

515
00:31:00,970 --> 00:31:06,490
information free and available.
As I was listening to Linda talk

516
00:31:06,490 --> 00:31:10,330
about all this, I started
actually to see a picture

517
00:31:10,330 --> 00:31:14,465
forming in my head. And this was
a picture of, like, pipes being

518
00:31:14,465 --> 00:31:17,745
laid. It was a picture of
structures being designed and

519
00:31:17,745 --> 00:31:20,225
pathways being paved.

520
00:31:20,465 --> 00:31:25,985
And it suddenly occurred to me
that even though this hurts to

521
00:31:25,985 --> 00:31:31,990
feel such a letdown, We might be
laying some kind of groundwork

522
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:40,230
for something new. Are we
creating new infrastructure with

523
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:43,350
this project that we haven't
seen and that might undergird

524
00:31:43,765 --> 00:31:46,085
longer than just to the next
administration?

525
00:31:46,485 --> 00:31:48,725
Lynda Kellum: Yeah. I oh, I
think there's there's a building

526
00:31:48,725 --> 00:31:52,325
awareness of the existing
infrastructure. Certainly,

527
00:31:52,325 --> 00:31:56,405
people now know about DataLumos
beyond just a few data

528
00:31:56,405 --> 00:32:00,840
librarians. And I give you an
example of that. There were only

529
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,560
a 100 data sets in DataLumos
from 2017 to 2025.

530
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:12,275
Since 2025, we have put 700 in.
So Wow. Yeah. It gets doesn't

531
00:32:12,275 --> 00:32:14,835
seem like a lot, but each one of
those takes a lot of time and

532
00:32:14,835 --> 00:32:18,835
and effort. And it is the
creation of maybe a new way of

533
00:32:18,835 --> 00:32:21,235
thinking about what we're doing.

534
00:32:21,235 --> 00:32:24,710
And we're still figuring this
out. Certainly with Data Rescue

535
00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:28,070
Project, one of the things we
would like to do is create a

536
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:32,070
infrastructure for rapid
response for digital objects.

537
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:36,725
Right? So it's not just that
every time something happens, we

538
00:32:36,725 --> 00:32:39,845
have to spin up this thing, but
we actually have an ongoing

539
00:32:39,845 --> 00:32:43,525
documented, understood way or
best practices and as well as

540
00:32:43,525 --> 00:32:46,165
well as technical infrastructure
for people who who need to do

541
00:32:46,165 --> 00:32:46,405
this.

542
00:32:54,770 --> 00:32:57,410
Hans Buetow: Even if we have an
eye toward the long term, there

543
00:32:57,410 --> 00:33:01,650
is a lot of information being
threatened and a lot of need to

544
00:33:01,650 --> 00:33:06,785
fulfill right now. Luckily,
there are people working on it,

545
00:33:06,865 --> 00:33:10,705
and there are plenty of ways
that we can all get involved in

546
00:33:10,705 --> 00:33:11,585
helping them.

547
00:33:11,825 --> 00:33:14,065
Jenny McBurney: So for example,
we've talked a lot about the

548
00:33:14,065 --> 00:33:17,185
Internet Archive and the Wayback
Machine. Those started, like, in

549
00:33:17,185 --> 00:33:21,000
the nineties, early two
thousands. Those are essential

550
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,280
tools. They're doing such a
great service. And I would

551
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,520
encourage anybody anywhere to
add the Wayback Machine browser

552
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,040
extension to your browser.

553
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,120
And if you see something, save
something.

554
00:33:32,665 --> 00:33:34,745
Molly Blake: Could be on a
government website or could be

555
00:33:34,745 --> 00:33:36,825
anywhere that you're just
worried about what would happen

556
00:33:36,825 --> 00:33:39,545
if this information goes away.
It just takes a second to click

557
00:33:39,545 --> 00:33:40,505
and to save it.

558
00:33:41,385 --> 00:33:43,225
Hans Buetow: This sort of
flagging and identifying, this

559
00:33:43,225 --> 00:33:47,020
is exactly the work that they're
hoping everyone can do. Like

560
00:33:47,020 --> 00:33:49,900
contributing, for example, to
their tracking government

561
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:50,940
information project.

562
00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:53,100
Molly Blake: We have a really
simple form where you can just

563
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:57,020
report this is the link I wanna,
share. This is what I know

564
00:33:57,020 --> 00:34:00,185
hasn't been removed or modified.
And, again, we know everybody

565
00:34:00,185 --> 00:34:02,985
uses these websites in different
ways, and so we need everyone's

566
00:34:02,985 --> 00:34:05,305
expertise. Like, need to hear
from teachers that are using

567
00:34:05,305 --> 00:34:09,545
lessons plans on these websites,
anyone who's using reports on

568
00:34:09,545 --> 00:34:12,440
this website. If there's
something that you've used and

569
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,320
you you notice it's gone or
changed or even if you're not

570
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,920
sure if it's changed, go ahead

571
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:17,720
Hans Buetow: and submit it, and
we

572
00:34:17,720 --> 00:34:19,880
Molly Blake: can kind of,
investigate on our end.

573
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:21,720
Hans Buetow: And if you're
really curious and you wanna go

574
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:25,645
see what data has already been
rescued, you can go to the data

575
00:34:25,645 --> 00:34:31,325
rescue project's tracker to see
all 1,200 data sets and

576
00:34:31,325 --> 00:34:34,765
counting. And that doesn't just
include their rescues, but

577
00:34:34,765 --> 00:34:35,645
everyone's.

578
00:34:35,645 --> 00:34:37,885
Lynda Kellum: One of our the
main things that we wanted to do

579
00:34:37,885 --> 00:34:40,090
is make sure that we were
amplifying what other people

580
00:34:40,090 --> 00:34:43,770
were doing. Mhmm. So it's not
just about us. We we want people

581
00:34:43,770 --> 00:34:47,370
to know about University of
Chicago's data mirror or the

582
00:34:47,370 --> 00:34:51,365
Federal Data Forum or America's
Essential Data. Right?

583
00:34:51,365 --> 00:34:54,005
All of those are great things
that are doing similar but

584
00:34:54,005 --> 00:34:55,445
different work. And so we wanna
make

585
00:34:55,445 --> 00:34:55,925
Hans Buetow: sure Yeah.

586
00:34:55,925 --> 00:34:58,325
Lynda Kellum: To amplify those.
And that's what's great about

587
00:34:58,325 --> 00:35:01,685
this community is we're not It's
not about territoriality. We're

588
00:35:01,685 --> 00:35:05,110
trying to amplify each other and
work together because I don't

589
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:07,350
want people doing what you
described to going and just

590
00:35:07,350 --> 00:35:11,270
hoarding things and putting it
in their servers. That's not

591
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:15,270
useful. And so we wanna make
sure that everybody knows where

592
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:18,630
they can go for the things that
they are working on.

593
00:35:21,265 --> 00:35:25,505
Hans Buetow: Everyone I talked
to, Molly, Kate, Jenny, Linda,

594
00:35:25,905 --> 00:35:32,065
everyone assured me that you do
not need to be a data person or

595
00:35:32,065 --> 00:35:37,320
a programming expert or a
background in library sciences

596
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,560
to do this work to be able to
support and pitch in. You just

597
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,880
need to be willing to join in.

598
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,680
Molly Blake: Speaking for
myself, I was like, is somebody

599
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,160
a little more experienced than
me starting this project

600
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,895
already? And I kept kind of
waiting. And eventually, I think

601
00:35:52,895 --> 00:35:55,135
we kinda decided, well, we have
to be the ones that start this

602
00:35:55,135 --> 00:35:57,535
project. And we're gonna learn
as we go, and we're gonna get

603
00:35:57,535 --> 00:36:00,415
other people involved, but
somebody has to be doing this,

604
00:36:01,135 --> 00:36:02,415
and it might as well be us.

605
00:36:16,410 --> 00:36:19,795
Hans Buetow: Thank you. Thank
you. Thank you. Thank you to

606
00:36:19,795 --> 00:36:23,475
Jenny McBurney, Molly Blake,
Kate Sheridan, and Linda Kellum.

607
00:36:23,475 --> 00:36:27,635
I had long conversations with
all these folks, and they were

608
00:36:27,635 --> 00:36:28,275
incredible.

609
00:36:28,275 --> 00:36:35,150
Y'all, librarians are the best.
Full stop. Unqualified. I will

610
00:36:35,150 --> 00:36:39,630
be publishing, those longer
conversations to our members,

611
00:36:39,790 --> 00:36:42,270
later in August. If you are not
a member, but you wanna hear

612
00:36:42,270 --> 00:36:45,550
those conversations, you can
always sign up for just $4 a

613
00:36:45,550 --> 00:36:49,095
month and get access to all of
the extended interviews, not

614
00:36:49,095 --> 00:36:52,855
just from this episode, which
will be there, but also previous

615
00:36:52,855 --> 00:36:53,335
episodes.

616
00:36:53,335 --> 00:37:00,055
You can go deep on a lot. You
can also go deep by looking in

617
00:37:00,055 --> 00:37:03,370
the show notes for this episode.
I'm gonna link to all of the

618
00:37:03,370 --> 00:37:06,650
projects that were mentioned in
this piece, to the Wayback

619
00:37:06,650 --> 00:37:10,090
Machine if you wanna start
archiving websites, to the Data

620
00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:13,450
Rescue Project, to the Tracking
Government Information Project,

621
00:37:13,450 --> 00:37:16,785
and lots, lots, lots more. If
you think you might be

622
00:37:16,785 --> 00:37:21,585
interested in learning more or
possibly joining the cause and

623
00:37:21,585 --> 00:37:24,865
volunteering some of your time
to help, you can find a great

624
00:37:24,865 --> 00:37:30,305
starter in the show notes or
head on over to neverpoe.st.

625
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,195
Mike Rugnetta: Michael Lowinger,
this removal of funding for the

626
00:38:17,195 --> 00:38:20,315
Corporation for Public
Broadcasting is the latest and

627
00:38:20,315 --> 00:38:23,595
most concrete escalation of a
battle that has been waging

628
00:38:23,595 --> 00:38:28,250
about public media since it
started in 1967. When this

629
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:31,290
amendment passed, Republican
house speaker Mike Johnson said,

630
00:38:31,370 --> 00:38:36,650
this is, in our view, a misuse
of taxpayer dollars. They're

631
00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:40,730
biased reporting. They're not
objective. They pretend to be

632
00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:43,955
so, and the people don't need to
fund that.

633
00:38:44,915 --> 00:38:48,675
In your expert opinion as a
media reporter reporting on

634
00:38:48,675 --> 00:38:55,940
media, is public media any more
biased than CNN, NBC, Fox News,

635
00:38:55,940 --> 00:38:59,060
or any other nationally
broadcast news outlet?

636
00:38:59,940 --> 00:39:00,260
Micah Loewinger: No.

637
00:39:17,505 --> 00:39:21,345
Ryan Broderick: I've seen it
used a lot now in tandem with,

638
00:39:21,345 --> 00:39:23,665
like, AI content, like,
particularly, like, that weird

639
00:39:23,665 --> 00:39:27,140
Italian crocodile that's popular
on TikTok. That's Ryan

640
00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:28,420
Broderick. You might

641
00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:31,060
Mike Rugnetta: know him from
well, here. I'll just let him

642
00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:31,620
tell you.

643
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:34,580
Ryan Broderick: Hi. My name is
Ryan Broderick. I am the author

644
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:37,460
of the Garbage Day newsletter
and the host of the Panic World

645
00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:42,655
podcast. And if you like this
show, you'll like those slightly

646
00:39:42,655 --> 00:39:44,895
less, but like them probably.

647
00:39:45,215 --> 00:39:47,695
Mike Rugnetta: Ryan's being
glib. You would love his work if

648
00:39:47,695 --> 00:39:50,255
you don't already know it, but
you probably do. We are huge

649
00:39:50,255 --> 00:39:54,095
fans at Neverpost at least. And
the crocodile that he's talking

650
00:39:54,095 --> 00:39:58,390
about is called Bombardero
crocodillo and it's maybe the

651
00:39:58,390 --> 00:40:05,110
most well known character, I
guess, in a lineup of characters

652
00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:09,125
featured in a series of now
slightly passe TikToks

653
00:40:09,205 --> 00:40:27,330
collectively called Italian
brain rot. He brought it up

654
00:40:27,330 --> 00:40:33,330
because I asked him to tell me
what exactly brain rot is.

655
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:36,325
Ryan Broderick: It's ugly. Like,
it's it's it's almost always

656
00:40:36,325 --> 00:40:42,325
ugly. It feels lazy and it feels
unfulfilling beyond just sort of

657
00:40:42,325 --> 00:40:45,445
understanding the references.
This feeling of like you're just

658
00:40:45,445 --> 00:40:47,445
consuming this stuff, but it
doesn't really add up. It

659
00:40:47,445 --> 00:40:48,805
doesn't really stay in your
mind.

660
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,120
It sort of pleases you in a
sensory way, but it's not great,

661
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,720
and you know that deep down. And
people really like watching the

662
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:01,040
videos, but they know that
they're bad and and and

663
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,405
unfulfilling. The way I see
people use it seems to be

664
00:41:05,405 --> 00:41:07,885
similar to the way you would
talk about, like, eating a lot

665
00:41:07,885 --> 00:41:11,565
of junk food. Like, there's a
pride to it, but the pride is

666
00:41:11,565 --> 00:41:14,205
kind of making fun of the
compulsive aspect to it.

667
00:41:17,230 --> 00:41:20,030
Mike Rugnetta: I wanted to ask
Ryan about brain rot because it

668
00:41:20,030 --> 00:41:24,190
seems to be front of mind for a
lot of people at the moment,

669
00:41:24,190 --> 00:41:28,590
even if that mind is diminishing
in its faculties. And it also

670
00:41:28,590 --> 00:41:33,695
seems to be like three different
things. It's a verb, which is

671
00:41:33,695 --> 00:41:37,375
what happens to your brain
looking at, as Ryan calls it,

672
00:41:37,375 --> 00:41:42,095
unfulfilling content. It's also
an adjective, the label given

673
00:41:42,095 --> 00:41:46,340
generally to unfulfilling
content. Celebrity gossip, weird

674
00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:49,860
food challenges, those
livestreams where they try to

675
00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:54,500
very carefully remove the shell
from a raw egg while keeping the

676
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:59,540
shell membrane intact, you might
reasonably call all of that

677
00:41:58,715 --> 00:42:04,875
brain rot, which is also a noun,
a genre label for Tralolero

678
00:42:04,875 --> 00:42:08,875
Tralolot, Skibbitty Toilet, Le
Poisson Steve, and others.

679
00:42:09,195 --> 00:42:14,890
All media with this shared and
specific kind of irreverence or

680
00:42:14,890 --> 00:42:20,490
inanity almost. All of that also
is brain rot, maybe with a

681
00:42:20,490 --> 00:42:24,955
capital b. To put this as
succinctly and confusingly as

682
00:42:24,955 --> 00:42:29,835
possible, not all brain rot is
brain rot, but it may all rot

683
00:42:29,835 --> 00:42:38,760
your brain all the same. So how
do we get these three different

684
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,400
but related senses of brain rot?
And what sort of anxieties or

685
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:48,120
compulsions does brain rot as a
concept confront?

686
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,075
Why was this term coined and why
is it useful is what I'm curious

687
00:42:53,075 --> 00:42:57,155
about in this segment. The
contemporary Internet usage of

688
00:42:57,155 --> 00:43:00,435
brain rot, of course, echoes a
phrase I grew up hearing

689
00:43:00,435 --> 00:43:04,890
sometimes in earnest, but mostly
ironically as a throwback to a

690
00:43:04,890 --> 00:43:09,130
very similar set of anxieties
also related to technology. TV

691
00:43:09,130 --> 00:43:10,490
rots your brains.

692
00:43:10,490 --> 00:43:10,810
Clip: But you

693
00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:13,370
should know that watching TV
rots your brain. Rot your

694
00:43:13,370 --> 00:43:14,090
brains.

695
00:43:14,090 --> 00:43:18,315
Mike Rugnetta: This is a very
well worn worry that some new

696
00:43:18,315 --> 00:43:22,475
type of media is somehow
destroying the minds of its

697
00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:26,475
audience, especially if that
audience is young.

698
00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:35,620
Emilie Owens: We have evidence
to show that when the novel was

699
00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:40,660
introduced as a format for the
every person to read in Denmark,

700
00:43:40,740 --> 00:43:43,780
the newspapers or and and public
commenters at the time were

701
00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:47,195
like, kids can't be reading
books. They will essentially rot

702
00:43:47,195 --> 00:43:47,995
their brains.

703
00:43:47,995 --> 00:43:49,515
Mike Rugnetta: This is Emily
Owens.

704
00:43:49,595 --> 00:43:51,915
Emilie Owens: Like, this is a
very old tradition of young

705
00:43:51,915 --> 00:43:55,195
people doing something, adults
finding it abhorrent, it making

706
00:43:55,195 --> 00:43:59,490
its way into the mainstream and
becoming our culture in whether

707
00:43:59,490 --> 00:44:02,050
we like it or not, and often in
ways which are really cringe.

708
00:44:02,050 --> 00:44:04,530
Mike Rugnetta: Emily is a
doctoral research fellow at the

709
00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:07,650
University of Oslo working in
the Department of Media

710
00:44:07,650 --> 00:44:08,610
Communications.

711
00:44:08,850 --> 00:44:12,290
Emilie Owens: Broadly, I am
interested in teenagers' lives,

712
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:16,015
meaning their social experiences
and their identity development,

713
00:44:16,255 --> 00:44:19,775
and how, if at all, those are
shaped by digital media broadly

714
00:44:19,775 --> 00:44:23,455
and in the case of my research,
TikTok specifically.

715
00:44:23,615 --> 00:44:26,630
Mike Rugnetta: In June, Emily
published an article in the

716
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:31,910
journal New Media and Society
titled, It Speaks to Me in Brain

717
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:37,110
Rot, theorizing brain rot as a
genre of participation among

718
00:44:37,110 --> 00:44:41,795
teenagers. In it, she points out
that when brain rot was named

719
00:44:41,795 --> 00:44:44,995
word of the year by Oxford
University Press in late twenty

720
00:44:44,995 --> 00:44:49,155
twenty four, a parade of hand
wringing followed with headlines

721
00:44:49,155 --> 00:44:53,010
like, I'm a neuroscientist.
Here's the surprising truth

722
00:44:53,010 --> 00:44:57,810
about TikTok brain rot from BBC
News. Smartphone addiction is

723
00:44:57,810 --> 00:45:03,010
leading to brain rot, doctors
say from CBS. Pope warns of

724
00:45:03,010 --> 00:45:06,535
brain rot from phone scrolling
from Catholic news website

725
00:45:06,535 --> 00:45:07,415
Alethea.

726
00:45:07,415 --> 00:45:12,375
Brain rot, the new generation's
epidemic from the cub. And, of

727
00:45:12,375 --> 00:45:13,495
course, more.

728
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,200
Emilie Owens: People were
freaked out about it. They

729
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,520
thought it was a a genuine
mental health condition

730
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,400
affecting young people who use
the Internet too much, but also

731
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,080
older people who use the
Internet too much or the type of

732
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,045
content that causes that mental
health condition. So that it was

733
00:45:34,045 --> 00:45:38,045
overwhelmingly, like, negative,
very little sort of tongue in

734
00:45:38,045 --> 00:45:41,885
cheek. That's maybe emerged more
now as we get more comfortable

735
00:45:41,885 --> 00:45:44,525
with the term, but certainly at
the beginning, it was real,

736
00:45:44,525 --> 00:45:46,445
like, panicky vibes.

737
00:45:47,210 --> 00:45:49,930
Mike Rugnetta: In the midst of
all this, Emily is conducting

738
00:45:49,930 --> 00:45:53,450
research with, quote, a small
group of teenagers at an

739
00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:56,970
international school in Oslo, as
she writes, and something

740
00:45:56,970 --> 00:45:57,530
happens.

741
00:45:57,850 --> 00:46:00,615
Emilie Owens: And in, workshop
three, since the third time I'd

742
00:46:00,615 --> 00:46:01,975
seen them all, they were
starting to get a bit more

743
00:46:01,975 --> 00:46:04,535
comfortable. And that was the
first time that Brain Rot

744
00:46:04,535 --> 00:46:08,855
actually came up, and it was
brought up by a a young woman

745
00:46:08,855 --> 00:46:13,510
named Yari, 16 years old. And
she is the self proclaimed

746
00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:15,110
TikTok expert of the group.

747
00:46:15,110 --> 00:46:17,510
Hans Buetow: And I say self
proclaimed, but others often

748
00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:20,710
also referred to her as the
TikTok expert in the group.

749
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:23,590
Emilie Owens: And so we were in
the middle of a discussion about

750
00:46:23,590 --> 00:46:27,405
why TikTok is valuable to her,
why she likes it so much. And

751
00:46:27,405 --> 00:46:30,205
she she started saying to me,
like, well, there's

752
00:46:30,205 --> 00:46:32,205
controversies going on in the
world, and there's always

753
00:46:32,205 --> 00:46:34,685
someone explaining it on TikTok.
And I went, yeah. And she said,

754
00:46:34,685 --> 00:46:37,085
or I've seen, like, Russian
ladies describe math to me, and

755
00:46:37,085 --> 00:46:39,325
Hans Buetow: I understand it.
And then another boy, Adrian,

756
00:46:39,325 --> 00:46:40,205
checked in and said, oh, yeah.

757
00:46:40,205 --> 00:46:42,930
Emilie Owens: I've seen that. I
know her. And that's when Yari

758
00:46:42,930 --> 00:46:47,810
said, yeah. It's like it speaks
in, like, brain rot to me. I

759
00:46:47,810 --> 00:46:48,850
understand it.

760
00:46:49,010 --> 00:46:53,570
And I embarrassingly responded
just by repeating slowly, it

761
00:46:53,570 --> 00:46:57,675
speaks in brain rot. But I think
you you can see that in that

762
00:46:57,675 --> 00:47:03,195
excerpt, I was I was sort of
computing this concept. Like, I

763
00:47:03,195 --> 00:47:06,155
couldn't even take it in. I just
had to say it back to her. And

764
00:47:06,155 --> 00:47:08,075
that's where it essentially
started.

765
00:47:08,075 --> 00:47:11,020
And I went on to ask, if you
come across a video on TikTok

766
00:47:11,020 --> 00:47:14,140
explaining something, would you
find it easier to understand in

767
00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:17,340
school? And every single one of
them nodded or said, yeah. And

768
00:47:17,340 --> 00:47:21,180
then a 16 year old boy, Lennox,
said exponentially. And when I

769
00:47:21,180 --> 00:47:24,335
said, really? Yari went on to
say, yeah, and everybody is on

770
00:47:24,335 --> 00:47:24,815
it.

771
00:47:31,775 --> 00:47:34,735
Mike Rugnetta: Emily asked the
kids in the next session what

772
00:47:34,735 --> 00:47:38,890
they mean when they say brain
rot. They say that it's stuff

773
00:47:38,890 --> 00:47:42,490
for younger kids, stuff that
maybe isn't, quote, cognitively

774
00:47:42,490 --> 00:47:47,450
beneficial, but they also say
that's kinda the point. She

775
00:47:47,450 --> 00:47:51,475
boils down their stew of
responses in the paper like

776
00:47:51,475 --> 00:47:56,755
this. Brain Rot can perhaps be
defined as a piece of slang

777
00:47:56,755 --> 00:48:01,315
referring to a way of engaging
with childish memes and general

778
00:48:01,315 --> 00:48:06,100
TikTok content which is
nonproductive or time wasting by

779
00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:10,980
nature and is humorously
understood to rot the brain of

780
00:48:10,980 --> 00:48:14,340
the user. From this definition
emerge some of the key

781
00:48:14,340 --> 00:48:18,065
characteristics which make up
brain rot as a genre for

782
00:48:18,065 --> 00:48:21,825
engaging meaningfully with
TikTok, following its mention by

783
00:48:21,825 --> 00:48:23,985
Yari in the previous example.

784
00:48:24,385 --> 00:48:29,105
One, brain rot is childish or
unserious. Two, brain rot

785
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,480
provides no cognitive or
developmental benefit. And

786
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:38,080
three, brain rot is deliberately
nonproductive. Brain rot is

787
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,160
therefore a conscious rejection
of self development and

788
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:48,725
productive activity in favor of
a childish enjoyment, end quote.

789
00:48:49,205 --> 00:48:53,365
So it turns out teens, like
everyone else, live in the world

790
00:48:53,445 --> 00:48:58,805
and are under a lot of pressure
from school, home, friends,

791
00:48:59,045 --> 00:49:03,180
stuff they see on the Internet
ironically, more on that in a

792
00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:03,660
minute.

793
00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:08,380
And so they, like you, like me,
get some scrolling in as a way

794
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:11,820
to release some of that
pressure. But crucially, they,

795
00:49:11,980 --> 00:49:19,235
we still wanna be engaged. We
don't want nothing. We just

796
00:49:19,235 --> 00:49:25,315
don't want anything asked or
expected of us in contrast to

797
00:49:25,315 --> 00:49:29,555
every other part of life and
there is only a particular

798
00:49:29,555 --> 00:49:39,720
stripe of media that can really
walk that line. In an attempt to

799
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:44,200
capture all this, Emily calls
Brain Rot a decompression driven

800
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,200
genre of participation.

801
00:49:47,165 --> 00:49:50,925
I asked her to take me through
what that means exactly.

802
00:49:50,925 --> 00:49:52,845
Emilie Owens: To start, I wanna
say that that term actually came

803
00:49:52,845 --> 00:49:56,445
from my childhood best friend's
mom, Kathleen Moore. I was like,

804
00:49:56,445 --> 00:49:58,445
I don't know what to call this
thing. I don't have the right

805
00:49:58,445 --> 00:50:01,790
term. And she was like, sounds
like this is a a like, you're

806
00:50:01,870 --> 00:50:04,590
these kids are trying to
decompress. It's not necessarily

807
00:50:04,590 --> 00:50:06,030
about relaxing.

808
00:50:06,030 --> 00:50:10,110
That's not the right word. It's
not about, like, switching off

809
00:50:10,110 --> 00:50:15,230
entirely. It's more to do with
sort of not not trying to

810
00:50:16,315 --> 00:50:21,195
improve in any way or not trying
to produce anything. Not you're

811
00:50:21,195 --> 00:50:23,275
not seeking out a new
friendship, and you're not

812
00:50:23,275 --> 00:50:26,155
seeking out an interest. You
just wanna you just wanna

813
00:50:26,155 --> 00:50:26,715
decompress.

814
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:30,020
Mike Rugnetta: Emily explained
to me that genre of

815
00:50:30,020 --> 00:50:32,980
participation is based on the
work of cultural anthropologist,

816
00:50:32,980 --> 00:50:37,220
Mizuki Ito, and is a way of
centering the idea that people

817
00:50:37,220 --> 00:50:41,220
do things with media. They look
for it to play a role in their

818
00:50:41,220 --> 00:50:45,335
lives to solve problems, and it
exists in a complex aggregate

819
00:50:45,335 --> 00:50:49,015
with the rest of their
experiences versus how media is

820
00:50:49,015 --> 00:50:52,935
often framed and talked about,
especially on the news, as being

821
00:50:52,935 --> 00:50:58,650
this monolithic thing that flies
in and changes an audience, that

822
00:50:58,650 --> 00:51:02,170
it has some effect on them after
they've experienced it, and then

823
00:51:02,170 --> 00:51:06,490
both they and the media move on.
To sit down, scroll through

824
00:51:06,490 --> 00:51:11,370
TikTok, and let one's brain rot
isn't the comatose welcoming of

825
00:51:11,370 --> 00:51:15,365
cognitive decline the headlines
would have you believe, but a

826
00:51:15,365 --> 00:51:19,765
purposeful activity which fits
in alongside others that make up

827
00:51:19,765 --> 00:51:23,445
a highly social aggregate. As
Emily says

828
00:51:23,845 --> 00:51:25,685
Emilie Owens: It's more like
this is something they kind of

829
00:51:25,685 --> 00:51:29,450
want or need to do anyway, and
now it has this digital

830
00:51:29,450 --> 00:51:30,330
component.

831
00:51:34,570 --> 00:51:37,610
Ryan Broderick: Yeah. Like, I I
I we we love to believe that the

832
00:51:37,610 --> 00:51:40,970
Internet is this really
addicting, dangerous force, and

833
00:51:40,970 --> 00:51:43,605
there's this really, like,
intense wave of millennial

834
00:51:43,605 --> 00:51:46,005
Ludditeism right now that's,
like, I find very

835
00:51:46,085 --> 00:51:49,285
counterproductive. And so
there's this feeling of, well,

836
00:51:49,285 --> 00:51:52,565
you know, the Internet is this
dangerous thing. And, I mean, we

837
00:51:53,045 --> 00:51:56,640
we've been talking about that in
regards to every media type

838
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,040
throughout history, like, you
know, go watch David

839
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,840
Cronenberg's Videodrome, like,
if you wanna see how VCRs could

840
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,000
be evil. Like, this is just this
isn't new.

841
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,200
But right now, we're really
interested in this idea of the

842
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,295
Internet changing our behavior,
changing the way we think. So

843
00:52:10,295 --> 00:52:10,935
brain rot,

844
00:52:10,935 --> 00:52:12,615
Mike Rugnetta: I think, has
become popular as an expression

845
00:52:12,615 --> 00:52:18,455
of that. A tale of two rots,
basically. To butcher an old

846
00:52:18,455 --> 00:52:24,790
rhetorical classification, not
if by whiskey, but if by rot. If

847
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:28,310
by rot, you mean the cognitive
decline of a generation of young

848
00:52:28,310 --> 00:52:32,390
people whose attention spans and
appetite for involved tasks or

849
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:36,285
consuming long texts has been
diminished by short form video

850
00:52:36,285 --> 00:52:40,365
and a bottomless feed of clips
expecting nothing from them,

851
00:52:40,365 --> 00:52:45,725
then of course, I am against it.
But if by rot, you mean the

852
00:52:45,725 --> 00:52:48,000
ability to manage one's
emotional state through the

853
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,920
selective viewing of low stakes
feel good media available at all

854
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,040
times in which has the
possibility of forming or

855
00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:01,435
reinforcing social bonds amongst
peers, then of course, I am for

856
00:53:01,435 --> 00:53:01,995
it.

857
00:53:06,795 --> 00:53:11,435
I wondered aloud to both Ryan
and Emily, does this mean Brain

858
00:53:11,435 --> 00:53:16,230
Rot is more of a lens? A
framework one brings to media

859
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:20,950
over and above it being a type
of media that one sits down and

860
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:26,870
is able to make or find on
purpose? Ryan and Emily both

861
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:32,105
kind of agreed. It's found, and
being able to find it may be

862
00:53:32,265 --> 00:53:36,425
circumstantial. Ryan's response
was dialogical.

863
00:53:36,425 --> 00:53:36,905
I I

864
00:53:36,905 --> 00:53:38,905
Ryan Broderick: think in many
ways, it's like brain rot is

865
00:53:38,905 --> 00:53:43,470
always being defined by someone
else in a way. Like, it's it's

866
00:53:43,470 --> 00:53:46,750
it's it's it's a label you put
on something, or it's like a

867
00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:49,070
label you put on what you're
looking at as a way to kind of,

868
00:53:49,070 --> 00:53:52,190
like, digest what you've just
spent twelve hours looking at

869
00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:56,125
online. I would be surprised if
someone could sit down and

870
00:53:56,125 --> 00:53:59,805
effectively make brain rot to
make brain rot. Like, I I feel

871
00:53:59,805 --> 00:54:02,445
like it it's it's almost like
outsider art in that way. It has

872
00:54:02,445 --> 00:54:05,085
to kind of be discovered and
labeled rather than I'm gonna

873
00:54:05,085 --> 00:54:07,005
sit down and make something
really insane, and people are

874
00:54:07,005 --> 00:54:08,685
gonna, like, watch hours and
hours of it.

875
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:12,980
Mike Rugnetta: For Emily, this
question became one about if

876
00:54:12,980 --> 00:54:16,420
there is a need for teens to
decompress, what's the reason

877
00:54:16,420 --> 00:54:21,695
they're going to content, to
social media to do that? Why is

878
00:54:21,695 --> 00:54:26,175
the activity they're engaging in
scrolling or searching or

879
00:54:26,175 --> 00:54:31,535
watching and not anything else?
What does it mean that

880
00:54:31,535 --> 00:54:35,810
decompression, as important as
it may be, happens in

881
00:54:35,810 --> 00:54:40,850
environments like social media
platforms, which adhere to a

882
00:54:40,850 --> 00:54:43,810
very strict hyper capitalist
logic?

883
00:54:44,450 --> 00:54:48,115
Emilie Owens: One of the themes
that emerges in my data a lot, I

884
00:54:47,730 --> 00:54:50,995
which am finding hard to write
about because I don't know how

885
00:54:50,995 --> 00:54:55,875
best to do it, is that these
kids feel like grown ups do not

886
00:54:55,875 --> 00:55:00,115
give a shit at all, and that
they are they are left to their

887
00:55:00,115 --> 00:55:03,075
own devices in terms of
everything that they are warned

888
00:55:03,075 --> 00:55:06,750
about. So they you know, I
brought up, you know, data and

889
00:55:06,750 --> 00:55:09,630
digitalization. And the first
thing they said was, oh, no.

890
00:55:09,630 --> 00:55:12,030
Companies are taking our data.
We know, but there's nothing we

891
00:55:12,030 --> 00:55:12,430
can do.

892
00:55:12,430 --> 00:55:19,195
So, like I wrote this article
because I was annoyed at how the

893
00:55:19,195 --> 00:55:22,635
grown ups were understanding
Brain Rock. I was like, you got

894
00:55:22,635 --> 00:55:26,475
it wrong, and you're replicating
this media panic that we've seen

895
00:55:26,475 --> 00:55:30,480
over and over and over and over
again. There are problems to do

896
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,560
with TikTok and BrainRot, but
they are not BrainRot. It's not

897
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,360
that young people are going to
BrainRot to turn their brains

898
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,240
off. It's that young people
don't have other places to go to

899
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:40,800
switch off.

900
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,345
They don't have the tools to do
that. There's not a lot of

901
00:55:44,345 --> 00:55:48,345
public spaces to go enjoy. It's
not like you can go out to a

902
00:55:48,345 --> 00:55:53,625
park and just switch off and do
dumb stuff and be a kid in that

903
00:55:53,625 --> 00:55:57,705
way. To be trapped in a phone
when you're trying to decompress

904
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,800
because someone makes money from
the fact that your eyes are on

905
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,440
that phone, I think that's
really grim. And I think that

906
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,880
these kids, these teenagers that
I was working with, they don't

907
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,355
say it explicitly because maybe
they haven't cognitively

908
00:56:11,355 --> 00:56:14,715
recognized it as such, but I
think they feel that that's not

909
00:56:14,715 --> 00:56:15,275
good.

910
00:56:15,435 --> 00:56:17,675
There are loads of things you
could do to decompress.

911
00:56:17,675 --> 00:56:21,115
Sometimes it is use your phone,
but oftentimes it's go for a

912
00:56:21,115 --> 00:56:26,890
walk, like go for a swim, take
your bicycle out, paint a

913
00:56:26,890 --> 00:56:30,810
painting, write a little story.
And we're, I think,

914
00:56:30,810 --> 00:56:34,410
systematically discouraged from
doing those things because those

915
00:56:34,410 --> 00:56:38,730
things don't make anybody any
money. And that's yeah. That's

916
00:56:38,730 --> 00:56:40,810
my that's my beef with Brain
Rot.

917
00:56:40,810 --> 00:56:44,145
It's not that it exists or that
young people are doing it. I

918
00:56:44,145 --> 00:56:45,985
think that's fine. We should let
kids do what they want. If

919
00:56:45,985 --> 00:56:50,385
they're enjoying it, who cares?
It's more that there's this

920
00:56:50,385 --> 00:56:53,345
bigger systematic problem that
all of our time is being

921
00:56:53,345 --> 00:56:56,660
capitalized on, and that's not
nice.

922
00:56:57,380 --> 00:56:59,460
Such a lame button to on.

923
00:57:00,340 --> 00:57:00,820
Hans Buetow: Not nice.

924
00:57:00,820 --> 00:57:21,505
Mike Rugnetta: But that's a
great button to end on. Thanks a

925
00:57:21,505 --> 00:57:26,210
million times over to both Ryan
Broderick and Emily Owens for

926
00:57:26,210 --> 00:57:28,530
chatting with me. You can find
Ryan's newsletter at

927
00:57:28,530 --> 00:57:32,690
garbageday.email and his podcast
Panic World wherever you listen

928
00:57:32,690 --> 00:57:37,035
to pods. You can find Emily's
work at emily owens, that's e m

929
00:57:37,035 --> 00:57:48,395
I l I e o w e n s, dot c a and
at h f dot u I o dot n o. We'll

930
00:57:48,395 --> 00:57:50,235
put links to all these things in
the show notes.

931
00:57:52,970 --> 00:57:57,450
What happens to your brain when
it rots? Is there something

932
00:57:57,450 --> 00:58:02,410
that's particularly effective at
rotting your brain? How do you

933
00:58:02,890 --> 00:58:07,145
feel about that? Would you admit
it to us? Send us an email, a

934
00:58:07,145 --> 00:58:10,825
voice mail, leave us a voice
memo about your rotting brain

935
00:58:10,825 --> 00:58:13,945
and we may include it in an
upcoming Mailbag episode.

936
00:58:56,430 --> 00:59:00,430
Micah, what does the change in
funding for the CPB mean for

937
00:59:00,430 --> 00:59:03,845
media over the next few years in
The United States?

938
00:59:03,845 --> 00:59:06,005
Micah Loewinger: Well, we don't
know for sure what's going to

939
00:59:06,005 --> 00:59:09,685
happen. We can only guess. But
it helps to have some

940
00:59:09,685 --> 00:59:13,765
understanding of how this
ecosystem works. Essentially,

941
00:59:13,765 --> 00:59:16,560
we're talking about money that
has been taken away from the

942
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,680
Corporation for Public
Broadcasting. Federal funds

943
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,840
appropriated by Congress, given
to an agency that, in this case,

944
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,600
doles out money to public radio
stations and public television

945
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:28,640
stations around the country.

946
00:59:29,175 --> 00:59:33,095
Some 300 plus TV stations, over
a thousand public radio

947
00:59:33,095 --> 00:59:37,735
stations. Now that that money is
gone, those stations will have

948
00:59:37,735 --> 00:59:41,975
to ask themselves, what do we
really value? Do we value these

949
00:59:41,975 --> 00:59:44,930
national programs that our
audience really likes that helps

950
00:59:44,930 --> 00:59:49,490
us fundraise? Do we value local
news? Do we value keeping an

951
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:50,850
environmental reporter?

952
00:59:51,170 --> 00:59:54,210
Somebody going to the
courthouse? Somebody hanging out

953
00:59:54,210 --> 00:59:58,635
in the State house all day? What
do we value? Because we are

954
00:59:58,635 --> 01:00:02,235
seeing that there are gonna be
heterogeneous effects. Some

955
01:00:02,235 --> 01:00:05,035
urban radio stations, for
instance, they only rely on,

956
01:00:05,035 --> 01:00:09,515
say, you know, less than 5% of
their overall revenue coming

957
01:00:09,515 --> 01:00:11,595
from the Corporation for Public
Broadcasting.

958
01:00:11,595 --> 01:00:14,990
Really rural radio stations,
some of them rely on it like

959
01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:19,550
99%, 90%, 80%. I saw one
estimate from this guy named

960
01:00:19,550 --> 01:00:22,270
Alex Kerley, who's a former
product manager who worked at

961
01:00:22,270 --> 01:00:26,190
NPR. He created a tool called
adoptastation.org to help

962
01:00:26,190 --> 01:00:29,035
people, like, figure out how
much their local radio station

963
01:00:29,035 --> 01:00:33,115
is at risk of losing because of
these cuts. He estimates that

964
01:00:33,115 --> 01:00:36,875
15% of public radio stations
might shut down in the next

965
01:00:36,875 --> 01:00:41,180
year, because 15% of public
radio stations rely on more than

966
01:00:41,180 --> 01:00:43,820
50% of their revenue
traditionally coming from the

967
01:00:43,820 --> 01:00:46,220
Corporation for Public
Broadcasting. That would be

968
01:00:46,220 --> 01:00:47,020
disastrous.

969
01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:51,340
I do think in the short term,
we're already seeing this, lots

970
01:00:51,340 --> 01:00:56,355
of huge surges in funding for
radio stations and public media

971
01:00:56,355 --> 01:01:00,275
organizations, particularly ones
in urban areas. But you know how

972
01:01:00,275 --> 01:01:03,235
it is, like, when there's a
crisis, people show up and open

973
01:01:03,235 --> 01:01:06,755
up their wallets, but then life
goes on and it gets harder to

974
01:01:06,755 --> 01:01:07,715
get people to care.

975
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:10,230
Mike Rugnetta: With all this in
mind, Micah, do you feel like

976
01:01:10,230 --> 01:01:12,710
we're seeing the end of public
media?

977
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:14,870
Micah Loewinger: No.

978
01:01:39,690 --> 01:01:42,730
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. That is the
show we have for you this week.

979
01:01:42,730 --> 01:01:45,330
We're gonna be back here in the
main feed on Wednesday, August

980
01:01:45,330 --> 01:01:51,205
13. Friends, listeners, now is
the time. If you've been waiting

981
01:01:51,205 --> 01:01:54,805
for a moment to support
Neverpost with a membership, we

982
01:01:54,805 --> 01:01:58,325
could use your help right now
more than ever.

983
01:01:58,565 --> 01:02:01,365
Our runway is quickly ending. We
need to find a way to make the

984
01:02:01,365 --> 01:02:04,380
show financially sustainable by
the end of the year to keep

985
01:02:04,380 --> 01:02:12,780
doing whatever it is we do here.
Media criticism? Tech theory?

986
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:14,380
Synth solos?

987
01:02:15,420 --> 01:02:21,915
Become a member at neverpo.st at
$4.07, or $12 a month for which

988
01:02:21,915 --> 01:02:25,195
you will get access to a bunch
of bonus content, but mostly

989
01:02:25,515 --> 01:02:28,235
knowledge that you're helping an
indie podcast to do weird,

990
01:02:28,235 --> 01:02:32,795
wonderful work so off the beaten
path, even we are not exactly

991
01:02:32,795 --> 01:02:36,240
sure what to call it.
Neverpost's producers are Audrey

992
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,800
Evans, Georgia Hampton, the
mysterious. Doctor first name,

993
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,320
last name. Our senior producer
is Hans Buto. Our executive

994
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,760
producer is Jason Oberholzer,
and the show's host, that's me,

995
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:46,640
is Mike Rugneva.

996
01:02:50,985 --> 01:02:57,225
The green color of the Cheshaco
smells of fresh recollections of

997
01:02:57,225 --> 01:03:04,570
what once has been in the
distant, remote past. Cha No Yu

998
01:03:04,810 --> 01:03:09,370
by Katherine Christer Annex.
Neverpost is a production of

999
01:03:09,370 --> 01:03:13,210
charts and leisure and is
distributed by Radiotopia.