1 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,165 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a 2 00:00:15,165 --> 00:00:17,005 podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike 3 00:00:17,005 --> 00:00:21,565 Ragnetta. This intro was written on Tuesday, 10/21/2025 at 4 00:00:21,565 --> 00:00:27,565 09:32AM eastern, and we have a bubbling, swirling show for you 5 00:00:27,565 --> 00:00:31,330 this week. Georgia, and I mean, could it have been anyone else, 6 00:00:31,330 --> 00:00:35,330 talks to practitioner of the magical arts, Mahegan St. 7 00:00:35,330 --> 00:00:40,210 Pierre, about the rise and sudden spotlight on Etsy witches 8 00:00:40,210 --> 00:00:44,565 and how their approach compares to witchcraft as practiced for 9 00:00:44,565 --> 00:00:45,445 millennia. 10 00:00:45,445 --> 00:00:48,725 Georgia speaks as well to PhD candidate in forensic 11 00:00:48,725 --> 00:00:54,085 psychology, Alex Frampton, about the role witchcraft may play for 12 00:00:54,085 --> 00:01:00,810 witches as a community. And also video game menu music Halloween 13 00:01:01,290 --> 00:01:04,810 edition. But right now, we're going to take a quick break, 14 00:01:04,810 --> 00:01:07,130 you're going to listen to some ads unless you're on the member 15 00:01:07,130 --> 00:01:09,930 feed, and when we return, we're going to talk about a few of the 16 00:01:09,930 --> 00:01:12,865 things that have happened since the last time you heard from us. 17 00:01:16,945 --> 00:01:20,865 From my laboratory in the Castle East to the master bedroom where 18 00:01:20,865 --> 00:01:24,305 the vampires feast, the ghouls all came from their humble 19 00:01:24,305 --> 00:01:30,440 abodes to get a jolt from my five stories this week. An 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,120 endless summer for you inside your phone. 21 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,080 Product designer, Laurent Delray, of Meta's Super 22 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,715 Intelligence Lab, launched an iPhone app that shares a name 23 00:01:40,715 --> 00:01:44,475 with the 1966 surfing documentary, which will generate 24 00:01:44,475 --> 00:01:49,995 pictures of you on the vacations you didn't or couldn't take. The 25 00:01:49,995 --> 00:01:53,915 app is powered by Google's Gemini Nano Banana image model. 26 00:01:53,915 --> 00:01:57,230 I love writing sentences twenty twenty five. Here you are 27 00:01:57,230 --> 00:02:01,070 exploring a beach town, writes TechCrunch, or overlooking a 28 00:02:01,070 --> 00:02:04,910 European city from your balcony. There you are out shopping, 29 00:02:04,910 --> 00:02:07,950 having dinner with friends, or at a social gathering, end 30 00:02:07,950 --> 00:02:08,510 quote. 31 00:02:08,670 --> 00:02:12,785 Endless Summer will charge you $3.99 for 30 images past the 32 00:02:12,785 --> 00:02:18,385 trial, $17.99 for a 150, and $34.99 for 300, which is 33 00:02:18,385 --> 00:02:20,865 significantly cheaper than the all inclusive resort that's been 34 00:02:20,865 --> 00:02:24,700 advertising to you on Instagram. In a sense, Jean Baudrillard 35 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:28,140 writes, the photographic image materially translates the 36 00:02:28,140 --> 00:02:32,540 absence of reality, which, quoting Borges, is so obvious 37 00:02:32,620 --> 00:02:36,780 and so easily accepted because we have already the feeling that 38 00:02:36,780 --> 00:02:40,805 nothing is real. Such a phenomenology of reality's 39 00:02:40,805 --> 00:02:47,285 absence is usually impossible to achieve. Endless Summer is free 40 00:02:47,285 --> 00:02:54,450 to download on the Apple App Store. X has reported that it 41 00:02:54,450 --> 00:02:57,490 will begin redistributing disused and inactive usernames 42 00:02:57,490 --> 00:03:01,170 via what the company is calling the handles marketplace 43 00:03:01,170 --> 00:03:03,970 available only to paid X subscribers. 44 00:03:04,385 --> 00:03:08,065 Longer and alphanumeric handles will be reassigned for no 45 00:03:08,065 --> 00:03:12,225 additional cost, while shorter and more recognizable handles, 46 00:03:12,305 --> 00:03:16,305 those with higher demand for redistribution, will be sold 47 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,040 with prices starting at $2,500 according to Mashable. What the 48 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,880 x trust and safety team or whatever is left of it at this 49 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,080 point will do to combat impersonation, fraud, and other 50 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:34,025 chicanery as a result of this process is anyone's guess. The 51 00:03:40,345 --> 00:03:44,480 Cambridge University Library archives are home to countless 52 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,280 letters, notebooks, photographs, scrolls, and now floppy disks. 53 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,240 In 2021, the library received the Hawking archive donated by 54 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,840 the family of the renowned theoretical physicist. In the 55 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,015 113 boxes of material, there were included a number of 56 00:04:02,015 --> 00:04:05,375 diskettes of various sizes and formats. 57 00:04:05,535 --> 00:04:08,335 To preserve these records and others like them, the BBC 58 00:04:08,335 --> 00:04:12,655 reports that archivists have had to turn to eBay, for example, to 59 00:04:12,655 --> 00:04:15,810 acquire the appropriate technology. For archivists 60 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:19,330 today, the BBC writes, that means dozens of separate 61 00:04:19,330 --> 00:04:23,250 machines are needed to read discs of various sizes from 62 00:04:23,250 --> 00:04:26,690 different systems, and it often takes significant searching to 63 00:04:26,690 --> 00:04:31,170 track down these ancient devices everywhere from house clearance 64 00:04:30,795 --> 00:04:34,555 auctions to collector marketplaces. This has created 65 00:04:34,555 --> 00:04:38,075 concerns among archivists, historians, and archaeologists, 66 00:04:38,075 --> 00:04:41,035 they write, that future generations may face a sort of 67 00:04:41,035 --> 00:04:45,115 digital dark age when they look back for material from the past 68 00:04:45,115 --> 00:04:53,250 fifty years or so. Meta removed a Facebook group used by nearly 69 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:57,650 80,000 people to track the presence of ICE, US immigration 70 00:04:57,650 --> 00:05:02,095 and customs enforcement, across Chicago during its now weeks 71 00:05:02,095 --> 00:05:05,775 long deportation blitz across the city. ICE, citing a 72 00:05:05,775 --> 00:05:09,615 Chicagoland, was used to, quote, warn neighbors that federal 73 00:05:09,615 --> 00:05:12,990 agents are near schools, grocery stores, and other community 74 00:05:12,990 --> 00:05:16,990 locations so they can take steps to protect themselves according 75 00:05:16,990 --> 00:05:18,590 to the Chicago Sun Times. 76 00:05:18,910 --> 00:05:21,550 The US Department of Justice requested the page's removal 77 00:05:21,550 --> 00:05:24,830 days after its existence was noted by dog food connoisseur 78 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:28,145 Laura Loomer. A Meta spokesperson said, this group 79 00:05:28,145 --> 00:05:31,425 was removed for violating our policies against coordinated 80 00:05:31,425 --> 00:05:35,425 harm. It is unclear what harm is being referenced here. At the 81 00:05:35,425 --> 00:05:38,545 time of recording, the official Facebook pages for both ICE and 82 00:05:38,545 --> 00:05:43,220 DHS responsible for at least twenty one deaths in 2025, 83 00:05:43,220 --> 00:05:50,180 according to notice.org, remain accessible. And finally, in 84 00:05:50,180 --> 00:05:54,980 further Chicagoland news, the rat hole was likely no rat at 85 00:05:54,980 --> 00:05:55,220 all. 86 00:05:55,555 --> 00:05:59,555 Nearly two years after the Chicago rat hole became a viral 87 00:05:59,555 --> 00:06:03,155 sensation, the Sun Times writes on Instagram, scientists have 88 00:06:03,155 --> 00:06:06,675 weighed in on the debate over what type of critter made the 89 00:06:06,675 --> 00:06:10,360 splat. The zoological mystery was solved by researchers at 90 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,640 University of Tennessee, Knoxville, who wrote there is a 91 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:19,480 98.67% likelihood that the Chicago rat hole was a squirrel. 92 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,280 We'll put a link to the story in the show notes. You gotta go 93 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:26,465 look for the diagrams alone. It is pure gold. 94 00:06:27,905 --> 00:06:30,945 In show news this week, we're gonna do these real quick. We 95 00:06:30,945 --> 00:06:35,745 won silver in the signal awards technology category. That's 96 00:06:35,745 --> 00:06:39,520 nice. That's very fun. When you tell your friends to listen to 97 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,520 the show, please be sure to mention that we are multi award 98 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,160 winning. 99 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,400 Congrats also to our pals Close All Tabs, who were also silver 100 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,080 medalists, and to Killswitch, who got the gold. Nice work. 101 00:06:55,585 --> 00:07:00,465 Never post T shirts are printed, and they look good as hell. 102 00:07:01,265 --> 00:07:04,305 Everyone did an amazing job, and they're gonna begin shipping 103 00:07:04,305 --> 00:07:08,240 early November. We'll have more news once they're out about what 104 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,280 shirts we'll have in stock for you to buy if you missed the 105 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,400 preorder, but it will be a very few. 106 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:21,635 A limited drop as the kids say. The Radiotopia fundraiser is 107 00:07:21,635 --> 00:07:24,675 starting in a week or so. We're gonna make a special upload just 108 00:07:24,675 --> 00:07:27,715 to explain what that is, how it works, and how it's different 109 00:07:27,715 --> 00:07:30,995 from the never post fundraiser that we just finished, but the 110 00:07:30,995 --> 00:07:34,275 long and short is it's a way to support every Radiotopia show 111 00:07:34,275 --> 00:07:38,330 all at once. Of it like a public media pledge Drive, but Avery 112 00:07:38,330 --> 00:07:40,410 Truffelman is there. Coming soon. 113 00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:43,450 We have some upcoming livestreams on Monday, October 114 00:07:43,450 --> 00:07:47,370 27 at 11:30AM eastern. Some of the staff are gonna take to 115 00:07:47,370 --> 00:07:53,365 Twitch to carve pumpkins. How festive. Grab a gourd to carve 116 00:07:53,365 --> 00:07:57,045 along if you are so inclined, or simply sit back and marvel at 117 00:07:57,045 --> 00:08:01,125 Georgia's claimed remarkable skill at this very specific 118 00:08:01,125 --> 00:08:03,445 task. Is anyone surprised? 119 00:08:03,685 --> 00:08:07,480 Not at all. And then on Monday, November 10 at 11:30AM eastern, 120 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,280 we're gonna be streaming an editorial meeting and carving up 121 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,040 ideas. I want you to know that Hans added that line to the 122 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:18,375 script. Come to hear pitches and help shape upcoming segments 123 00:08:18,375 --> 00:08:21,255 that you're gonna hear on Never Post. It's gonna be a lark. 124 00:08:21,255 --> 00:08:25,815 Both will happen at twitch.tv forward /theneverpost. Follow us 125 00:08:25,815 --> 00:08:29,255 to get notified when we go live. And finally, hells bells 126 00:08:29,255 --> 00:08:35,280 pitches. We got so many. If you submitted a pitch for a segment, 127 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:35,920 we got it. 128 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,640 We promise. We're working on getting back to everybody that 129 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,280 we're interested in working with. If we don't get back to 130 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,695 you, sorry, but please do not be discouraged. Please please 131 00:08:45,695 --> 00:08:49,135 please please please pitch us again the next time you come 132 00:08:49,135 --> 00:08:56,980 across a story and you think, oh, sounds like Neverpost. Okay. 133 00:08:56,980 --> 00:08:59,220 That's the news I have for you this week. In this episode, 134 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:02,900 Georgia talks with Mahegan Saint Pierre and Alex Frampton about 135 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:06,020 witches online, offline, and the nature of the gulf between the 136 00:09:06,020 --> 00:09:09,860 two. But first, in our interstitials this week, dredged 137 00:09:09,860 --> 00:09:16,265 from the depths of archive.org, spooky video game menu music. 138 00:09:16,425 --> 00:09:21,225 Selections include Elvira, Castlevania, of course, Shaken, 139 00:09:21,225 --> 00:09:26,185 and Gauntlet. You can find a full list in the show notes. 140 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,560 Georgia Hampton: What do you think people who are going to 141 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,560 Etsy for curses are looking for? 142 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,605 Mahigan St. Pierre: God knows. God knows. Petty resolution 143 00:11:38,605 --> 00:11:43,005 maybe or desperation. I doubt it's desperation because usually 144 00:11:43,005 --> 00:11:47,165 desperation drives you to, like, dark alleys, not etsy.com. 145 00:11:48,205 --> 00:11:50,900 Georgia Hampton: That's Mehegan St. Pierre, a practicing witch 146 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:54,020 who offers services online through their business Kitchen 147 00:11:54,020 --> 00:12:00,580 Toad. Not on Etsy, mind you. Astandardissue.com and a Patreon 148 00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:02,180 and a podcast. 149 00:12:02,180 --> 00:12:04,815 Mahigan St. Pierre: For me specifically, the witch is 150 00:12:04,815 --> 00:12:08,895 someone who situates themselves within the world, within the 151 00:12:08,895 --> 00:12:13,775 cosmos as a person of agency who, you know, traffics with the 152 00:12:13,775 --> 00:12:18,720 living, the dead, and nature spirits all around us in any 153 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,560 way, shape, form that might show up. The witch is someone who is 154 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,520 an intercessor between the world of the living as well as the 155 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,720 world of spirit. Right? The witch often takes on a role that 156 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:37,485 is part priest, part community therapist, part healer, you 157 00:12:37,485 --> 00:12:38,845 know, part sorcerer. 158 00:12:41,325 --> 00:12:44,765 Georgia Hampton: What does that mean? Well, in simplified terms, 159 00:12:45,140 --> 00:12:49,060 the witch community exists to replace the social hierarchy 160 00:12:49,060 --> 00:12:52,980 that would otherwise reject them. A witch defines themselves 161 00:12:53,060 --> 00:12:56,740 for themselves. They have a spiritual practice that is 162 00:12:56,740 --> 00:13:00,485 grounded in the physical natural world. But what that practice 163 00:13:00,485 --> 00:13:04,485 looks like is also determined by each individual witch. 164 00:13:04,805 --> 00:13:08,725 It can mean reading tarot or doing someone's birth chart. It 165 00:13:08,725 --> 00:13:11,605 can also mean calling upon spirits to protect yourself or 166 00:13:11,605 --> 00:13:15,290 others. And even if a witch's practice just focuses on 167 00:13:15,290 --> 00:13:19,210 themself, witches are an extremely community focused 168 00:13:19,210 --> 00:13:24,810 group. Historically, to be a witch is to be an other. To be 169 00:13:24,810 --> 00:13:25,610 othered. 170 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:29,935 The term implies ostracization, isolation from the broader 171 00:13:29,935 --> 00:13:33,215 community, and the promise of violence by that broader 172 00:13:33,215 --> 00:13:36,975 community. But like many terms meant to do harm, the label 173 00:13:36,975 --> 00:13:40,495 witch and the practice of witchcraft have also been co 174 00:13:40,495 --> 00:13:44,230 opted to be signals of empowerment. These terms have 175 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:47,670 been redefined to suit a multitude of individual 176 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:52,710 interests. This process has played out in witchcraft online 177 00:13:52,870 --> 00:14:03,695 over the last decade or so. I wanted to talk to McKeegan about 178 00:14:03,695 --> 00:14:08,095 witches generally, online witches specifically, and Etsy 179 00:14:08,095 --> 00:14:13,215 witches even more specifically after the whole Charlie Kirk 180 00:14:13,215 --> 00:14:13,535 thing. 181 00:14:16,630 --> 00:14:20,310 Three days before Charlie Kirk was assassinated, Jezebel posted 182 00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:24,390 an article with the headline, quote, we paid some Etsy witches 183 00:14:24,390 --> 00:14:28,230 to curse Charlie Kirk. The article has since been removed, 184 00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:32,555 but in it, the author described how easy it was to pick out a 185 00:14:32,555 --> 00:14:35,995 curse. She compared it to being as difficult as buying a phone 186 00:14:35,995 --> 00:14:40,555 charger. The curse was supposed to be a low level inconvenience, 187 00:14:40,715 --> 00:14:46,110 like getting a bad haircut. But, obviously, things turned out 188 00:14:46,110 --> 00:14:46,910 differently. 189 00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:53,870 The witch responsible for the curse, named Priestess Lillian, 190 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:57,390 denied her workings had anything to do with Charlie Kirk's death. 191 00:14:57,790 --> 00:15:02,245 Then she kind of took it back and said how her workings are 192 00:15:02,245 --> 00:15:06,245 effective and that curses can have unintended consequences. 193 00:15:06,725 --> 00:15:09,605 But it doesn't really matter what she said. People wanted to 194 00:15:09,605 --> 00:15:14,010 congratulate her and to hire her to go after more politicians. It 195 00:15:14,010 --> 00:15:17,690 also inspired, I mean, quite literally a witch hunt. 196 00:15:17,770 --> 00:15:21,850 Priestess Leland received a barrage of death threats. Etsy 197 00:15:21,850 --> 00:15:26,810 banned her. In the denouement of all of this, I wanted to know 198 00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:31,225 what is it like being a witch? What is it like being a witch 199 00:15:31,305 --> 00:15:35,465 online? And maybe most intensely, I needed to know how 200 00:15:35,465 --> 00:15:40,745 does Internet witchcraft work in comparison to the non Internet 201 00:15:40,745 --> 00:15:41,145 kind? 202 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:52,340 If you read the newsletter or listened to our Halloween 203 00:15:52,340 --> 00:15:56,020 special last year, it should come as no surprise that I, 204 00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:59,620 producer Georgia, have a personal connection to this 205 00:15:59,620 --> 00:16:03,665 topic. I've practiced some kind of occult spirituality my whole 206 00:16:03,665 --> 00:16:07,265 life. I started reading my birth chart and collecting crystals in 207 00:16:07,265 --> 00:16:11,185 elementary school. I read my cards regularly and will do 208 00:16:11,185 --> 00:16:15,080 anyone's tarot if they ask me. If someone I know had a baby, 209 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,040 I'll make the baby's birth chart for the parents. 210 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,040 I don't really do any kind of spell work apart from cleansing 211 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,080 my apartment when it's called for, or maybe doing some full 212 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:30,035 moon rituals. My practice is pretty private. But there's an 213 00:16:30,035 --> 00:16:34,275 entire world of witchcraft that is very much a business. If 214 00:16:34,275 --> 00:16:36,755 you're down on your luck and looking for a metaphysical 215 00:16:36,755 --> 00:16:41,155 solution to your woes, there are witches ready and able to help. 216 00:16:41,475 --> 00:16:45,340 Historically, the purchasing of sorceress services is something 217 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:47,420 you had to go seek out. 218 00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:51,580 By virtue of witchcraft being the work of the other, anyone 219 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:54,940 who might be interested in purchasing spell work had to 220 00:16:54,940 --> 00:16:58,925 leave the comfort of more quote unquote polite society and go 221 00:16:58,925 --> 00:17:04,205 find it. Centuries ago, that might have meant going into the 222 00:17:04,205 --> 00:17:07,565 woods or walking down a dark alley that leads to another dark 223 00:17:07,565 --> 00:17:11,210 alley that leads to an unmarked door behind a brothel. Witches 224 00:17:11,210 --> 00:17:15,530 were harder to find, and that was often by design. But now, 225 00:17:15,930 --> 00:17:18,970 finding a witch is as easy as knowing the right search terms. 226 00:17:19,690 --> 00:17:23,965 If you go to etsy.com and look up the word curse, you get 227 00:17:23,965 --> 00:17:26,925 exactly 1,280 results. 228 00:17:27,165 --> 00:17:31,245 Search the word spell, and you get the same number. I don't 229 00:17:31,245 --> 00:17:34,045 think this is some cosmic coincidence either. I think it's 230 00:17:34,045 --> 00:17:36,125 just the maximum number of searchable products that Etsy 231 00:17:36,125 --> 00:17:40,320 allows. There's hexes to financially ruin someone. 232 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,600 There's love spells and spells to block love spells. 233 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,440 Etsy witches get around the intangibility of their services 234 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,640 by listing spell work under the category of entertainment. 235 00:17:51,225 --> 00:17:56,665 Product names are outrageously long. Things like bring back 236 00:17:56,665 --> 00:18:00,425 stubborn x, return to me, come back casting, love obsession 237 00:18:00,425 --> 00:18:04,310 spell, love ritual for your stubborn target, bring him back 238 00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:10,070 love spell. Or 5 k to 10 k fast money spell casting, instant 239 00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:13,350 cash spell for quick results, powerful wealth ritual, 240 00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:17,705 immediate financial success, same hour or day. Etsy is the 241 00:18:17,705 --> 00:18:19,145 Timu of sorcery. 242 00:18:20,105 --> 00:18:23,625 The prices are also pretty comparable to Timu. That 243 00:18:23,625 --> 00:18:29,065 stubborn ex spell would put you back $35. At Mahegan's shop, a 244 00:18:29,065 --> 00:18:34,610 sweetening ritual costs twice that amount. Where does Etsy 245 00:18:34,610 --> 00:18:39,490 exist as a platform for magic in the community? Is it reputable? 246 00:18:39,890 --> 00:18:40,370 I don't 247 00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:43,970 Mahigan St. Pierre: think so. I don't know that it is. I don't 248 00:18:43,970 --> 00:18:49,305 know anyone in my circles and who I consider peers, who I 249 00:18:49,305 --> 00:18:53,545 consider to be like leading voices in this community, you 250 00:18:53,545 --> 00:18:58,490 know, this broader community that does Etsy. To me, I've 251 00:18:58,490 --> 00:19:02,170 always conceptualized Etsy as this place where you buy like 252 00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:04,970 packed with the 49 legions of hell. 253 00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:07,450 Georgia Hampton: Basically, something that sounds scary, but 254 00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:09,210 doesn't necessarily mean anything. 255 00:19:09,450 --> 00:19:11,370 Mahigan St. Pierre: That kind of thing rather than actually 256 00:19:11,370 --> 00:19:14,885 working with a practitioner directly. I think that the model 257 00:19:14,885 --> 00:19:18,245 of purchasing something through Etsy, getting like an automated 258 00:19:18,245 --> 00:19:23,045 email, and then like maybe a reading, maybe a picture. Who 259 00:19:23,045 --> 00:19:24,885 knows if it's the same if it's the same picture sent to 260 00:19:24,885 --> 00:19:27,830 everyone, you know what I mean? But it's extremely impersonal. 261 00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:31,350 And I think that by removing the person from the actual process 262 00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:34,550 of, you know, working services, you're no longer doing client 263 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:37,110 work, you are churning out some bullshit. 264 00:19:37,910 --> 00:19:41,135 Georgia Hampton: Their shop, Kitchen Toad, offers a wide 265 00:19:41,135 --> 00:19:45,215 range of services. Things like cleansing rituals, handmade 266 00:19:45,215 --> 00:19:49,535 charms, and the option to book a reading or a consultation. All 267 00:19:49,535 --> 00:19:53,375 available online for any client who crosses the digital 268 00:19:53,375 --> 00:19:57,640 threshold. And this isn't just an add to cart hit purchase 269 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,920 situation. It's very involved. 270 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,320 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's an intake form. You know, you give 271 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,040 me your full name, your date of birth, a picture of yourself, 272 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,715 what you need out of this. And then once I have that money's 273 00:20:09,715 --> 00:20:12,995 transferred, everything like that, then, you know, I usually 274 00:20:12,995 --> 00:20:15,235 get in touch with people, let them know when it's gonna be 275 00:20:15,235 --> 00:20:17,795 performed. And then depending on if they want divination 276 00:20:17,795 --> 00:20:20,355 performed afterwards or they wanted a recap, which is 277 00:20:20,355 --> 00:20:23,610 essentially a candle burning reading. Then at that point, 278 00:20:23,610 --> 00:20:26,890 once the working is performed, there's pictures sent to you 279 00:20:26,890 --> 00:20:30,330 and, you know, a description of what happened, what I did, any 280 00:20:30,330 --> 00:20:32,890 omens that came through, any sort of visions, anything like 281 00:20:32,890 --> 00:20:35,130 that, as well as the results of divination. 282 00:20:35,785 --> 00:20:37,785 Georgia Hampton: The relationship between Mahegan and 283 00:20:37,785 --> 00:20:41,385 their client is extremely intimate, and it's completely 284 00:20:41,385 --> 00:20:45,225 unique depending on the person. If the situation is more 285 00:20:45,225 --> 00:20:48,745 complicated, say, if you want a curse to be lifted off of you 286 00:20:48,745 --> 00:20:52,230 and there are lots of energies at play, then this process is 287 00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:57,270 also more nuanced. Maheegan caters to each person's needs. 288 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:01,110 One client might need a talisman to help protect them. Others 289 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:01,830 might not. 290 00:21:02,550 --> 00:21:05,565 Sometimes during these consultations, Maheegan decides 291 00:21:05,565 --> 00:21:09,245 that spell work isn't even what a person needs at all. 292 00:21:09,325 --> 00:21:10,925 Mahigan St. Pierre: After the holidays, there's usually an 293 00:21:10,925 --> 00:21:13,965 uptick in, like, cleansing work and then removal work and those 294 00:21:13,965 --> 00:21:16,285 kinds of things because people come away from the holidays 295 00:21:16,285 --> 00:21:19,405 feeling icky and feeling, like, spiritually drained and such. 296 00:21:19,850 --> 00:21:22,730 And so a lot of people will come and inquire whether or not they 297 00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:25,770 were cursed. And most of the time, it's just like, no, your 298 00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:30,410 relatives just suck. I'm gonna be so real with you. Mima Mima 299 00:21:30,410 --> 00:21:31,770 is not a great influence on you. 300 00:21:33,345 --> 00:21:36,065 Georgia Hampton: Through their online business, Mohegan is able 301 00:21:36,065 --> 00:21:39,585 to foster a community of clients, many of whom have been 302 00:21:39,585 --> 00:21:43,985 coming to them for years. And Mohegan's work is very 303 00:21:43,985 --> 00:21:47,550 emotionally taxing. In order to know what any given person 304 00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:53,070 needs, they need to know a lot about that person. Fears, 305 00:21:53,150 --> 00:21:59,425 traumas, resentments, insecurities. On Etsy, that 306 00:21:59,425 --> 00:22:03,105 client practitioner relationship is replaced with the promise of, 307 00:22:03,105 --> 00:22:04,625 as Mihigan said I 308 00:22:04,625 --> 00:22:06,705 Mike Rugnetta: fought my legions in hell. 309 00:22:07,505 --> 00:22:10,065 Georgia Hampton: Galloping to take vengeance on your behalf. 310 00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:18,850 All fluff. Demonic fluff, sure, but no substance. But that kind 311 00:22:18,850 --> 00:22:24,205 of fluff sells online. It's outrageously popular, and it's 312 00:22:24,205 --> 00:22:27,245 the most common flavor of witchcraft that shows up on my 313 00:22:27,245 --> 00:22:28,925 feeds unsummoned. 314 00:22:29,085 --> 00:22:31,885 I regularly see people posting videos about how they quote 315 00:22:31,885 --> 00:22:36,765 unquote hired an Etsy witch to, I don't know, make their ex 316 00:22:36,765 --> 00:22:41,210 boyfriend go bald. This mainstreamification of 317 00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:45,210 witchcraft is mostly about what kind of post you can make about 318 00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:50,410 it. The term Etsy witch has become kind of a meme, like the 319 00:22:50,410 --> 00:22:52,985 Charlie Kirk thing, like a lot of things. 320 00:22:53,705 --> 00:22:55,945 TikTokker: I paid three Etsy witches to draw my soul mate, 321 00:22:55,945 --> 00:22:57,785 tonight, we're gonna find out if they actually drew the same 322 00:22:57,785 --> 00:22:58,185 person. 323 00:22:58,185 --> 00:23:00,265 TikTokker: I paid, well, technically speaking, two Etsy 324 00:23:00,265 --> 00:23:03,720 witches. One for good luck, and then one for another thing that 325 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,400 we're keeping off the Internet, and that's fine. 326 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,840 TikTokker: Yesterday morning at 8AM, I paid an Etsy witch. She 327 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,440 casted four spells for me. Shout out to my Etsy witch. I wanna 328 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,640 tell you guys about this until I thought it actually worked, but, 329 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:16,360 bitch, it worked. 330 00:23:17,955 --> 00:23:20,275 Georgia Hampton: It's not entirely clear if the people who 331 00:23:20,275 --> 00:23:24,435 book workings from Etsy witches actually believe that curses and 332 00:23:24,435 --> 00:23:29,555 spells are real. Frankly, it might not really matter. The 333 00:23:29,555 --> 00:23:34,220 point is the post. The sharing of the fact that you did it. A 334 00:23:34,220 --> 00:23:35,820 kind of wink and a nod. 335 00:23:35,820 --> 00:23:40,060 Like, we all know this is a joke. And as Maheegan explained 336 00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:43,580 to me, sharing this work is usually a pretty big no no. 337 00:23:43,985 --> 00:23:46,785 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's this sort of like, this is hush-hush, 338 00:23:46,785 --> 00:23:49,665 you know? Yes, we are online doing things. It's a very 339 00:23:49,665 --> 00:23:52,465 strange thing to kind of compute. Because it's like 340 00:23:52,465 --> 00:23:55,025 you're public and you're saying, yes, hire me for these things. 341 00:23:55,185 --> 00:23:57,825 But at the same time, there's a level of respect that needs to 342 00:23:57,825 --> 00:24:01,050 be understood that it's like, but this isn't for other people 343 00:24:01,050 --> 00:24:02,330 to see necessarily. 344 00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:06,890 Georgia Hampton: Through Etsy, spell work isn't treated as a 345 00:24:06,890 --> 00:24:10,090 communal interpersonal exchange of energy that is best handled 346 00:24:10,090 --> 00:24:14,250 privately. You're buying a spell from the same place that you buy 347 00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:19,205 a cheap red sash that says, Huzzah, 'tis my birthday in old 348 00:24:19,205 --> 00:24:24,805 English typeface. Which like, that's fine. It's just something 349 00:24:24,805 --> 00:24:25,365 different. 350 00:24:25,365 --> 00:24:26,645 Mahigan St. Pierre: They're going through something or 351 00:24:26,645 --> 00:24:28,645 they're hanging out with their friends or what have you. And 352 00:24:28,645 --> 00:24:30,485 like, you know, they're having fun and they're like, oh my god, 353 00:24:30,485 --> 00:24:31,810 what if we book a spell? 354 00:24:31,810 --> 00:24:34,850 Georgia Hampton: And that's exciting. Right? A little white 355 00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:40,370 wine, a little hex, just another night with the girls. On Etsy, 356 00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:43,490 witchcraft is presented in the way a sideshow at a carnival 357 00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:47,955 might present it. With skulls and big capital letters and the 358 00:24:47,955 --> 00:24:51,635 promise that this curse will drive someone to the brink of 359 00:24:51,635 --> 00:24:52,515 madness. 360 00:24:56,435 --> 00:25:01,200 The product images are often AI imagery of the kind of stuff 361 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,520 you'd expect. Women with glowing eyes and jet black hair staring 362 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,255 intensely from behind a cauldron. If the listing 363 00:25:10,255 --> 00:25:14,095 mentions anything about demons, you'll be treated to the AI 364 00:25:14,095 --> 00:25:18,495 generated image of a dozen Snarling, frogging nast of 365 00:25:18,495 --> 00:25:22,015 terror. As if these very same creatures are waiting at the 366 00:25:22,015 --> 00:25:32,800 ready to torment your cheating ex. That is thrilling, but 367 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,840 impersonal. 368 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,225 It's the contentification of witchcraft, making it a product 369 00:25:38,225 --> 00:25:42,305 you can pay for in four interest free installments with Klarna. 370 00:25:42,705 --> 00:25:47,185 Not something which encourages deeper spiritual inquiry, which, 371 00:25:47,185 --> 00:25:50,385 you know, if you're out here wishing baldness upon your ex, 372 00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:52,550 maybe that would be good for you. 373 00:25:52,550 --> 00:25:55,430 Mahigan St. Pierre: The fact that it's impersonal also means 374 00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:57,510 that it's easy. And the fact that it's usually cheaper is 375 00:25:57,510 --> 00:26:01,670 also easy. Right? The fact that you don't have to actually 376 00:26:01,670 --> 00:26:05,110 confront your desire for why you're booking this work by 377 00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:09,205 talking to a professional about it, means that you can book it, 378 00:26:09,205 --> 00:26:12,325 set it, forget it, hope for the best, or even set it out of your 379 00:26:12,325 --> 00:26:12,565 mind. 380 00:26:12,565 --> 00:26:14,245 Because it was $15. Who the fuck cares? 381 00:26:14,565 --> 00:26:17,125 Georgia Hampton: From this perspective, Etsy witches serve 382 00:26:17,125 --> 00:26:20,510 the same purpose as a Zoltar machine. One of those 383 00:26:20,510 --> 00:26:24,430 animatronic fortune tellers you see at arcades. Sure, you know 384 00:26:24,430 --> 00:26:27,390 that the fortune you're getting is one of a finite number of 385 00:26:27,390 --> 00:26:31,710 options randomly handed to you. But you still pay for it 386 00:26:31,710 --> 00:26:36,385 because, well, it's fun. And people love fun, which for 387 00:26:36,385 --> 00:26:40,625 witches is sort of a blessing and a curse. 388 00:26:44,145 --> 00:26:47,185 Mahegan explained to me that being a witch online means 389 00:26:47,185 --> 00:26:49,585 maintaining a kind of public performance. 390 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,720 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's always a component when you're 391 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,520 doing public spiritual and magical work of performance, of 392 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,080 pageantry, of, selling a story, selling an experience, selling a 393 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,560 feeling. In the same way that there's branding for, you know, 394 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,565 skincare and perfume companies, it's the same thing. The 395 00:27:04,565 --> 00:27:08,565 pageantry is a necessary aspect of this to a certain extent 396 00:27:08,645 --> 00:27:14,325 because that is what draws people in. And the showing off 397 00:27:14,325 --> 00:27:17,525 is also a way to communicate competence. 398 00:27:18,410 --> 00:27:21,290 Georgia Hampton: Witchcraft has a long history of showmanship, 399 00:27:21,290 --> 00:27:24,650 and showing off your skills is a way to attract would be clients. 400 00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:29,130 And the Internet lends itself beautifully to pageantry. When 401 00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:31,770 your posts are shared more readily by an algorithm that 402 00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:35,795 favors bright colors, human faces, and striking visuals, 403 00:27:36,035 --> 00:27:39,635 then social media could be the perfect place to perform your 404 00:27:39,635 --> 00:27:42,995 spell work in front of a potentially endless crowd of 405 00:27:42,995 --> 00:27:48,720 would be clients. But as Mihigan told me, the kind of things that 406 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,000 tend to attract the most people to a witch's online storefront 407 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,840 aren't things like spell work or public displays of spiritual 408 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,680 ability. It has nothing to do with skill at all. 409 00:28:00,595 --> 00:28:05,315 It's whether or not you, quote, unquote, look or act like a 410 00:28:05,315 --> 00:29:54,855 witch. After the break, we learn more about what that means. When 411 00:29:54,855 --> 00:29:58,615 it comes to doing witchcraft online, being a skilled sorcerer 412 00:29:58,615 --> 00:30:03,415 matters less than looking like a witch. And Maheegan told me that 413 00:30:03,415 --> 00:30:07,015 this game of aesthetic telephone is a common thing for the more 414 00:30:07,015 --> 00:30:08,295 popular witchy influencers. 415 00:30:08,540 --> 00:30:09,980 Mahigan St. Pierre: They remodeled their kitchen to look 416 00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:14,620 like practical magic. And, you know, they talked about folklore 417 00:30:14,620 --> 00:30:18,780 that they read in a book twenty years ago once or twice. And 418 00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:21,500 then they just created this aesthetic around themselves, and 419 00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:24,375 that's what that's what it is. Right? And they have hundreds of 420 00:30:24,375 --> 00:30:25,335 thousands of followers. 421 00:30:25,655 --> 00:30:28,295 Georgia Hampton: Hundreds of thousands of followers is 422 00:30:28,295 --> 00:30:32,375 achieved by mirroring the aesthetic of the expected, the 423 00:30:32,375 --> 00:30:37,335 inoffensive, the friendly, the ooky spooky, but not scary. 424 00:30:37,655 --> 00:30:39,710 Frankly, the caricature. 425 00:30:41,710 --> 00:30:44,030 Alex Frampton: So we're talking about the pointed hat. We're 426 00:30:44,030 --> 00:30:46,910 talking about potentially the green face, depending on kind of 427 00:30:46,910 --> 00:30:50,190 how far back into Disney we're going. You know, the the grown 428 00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:53,465 laugh, the black hats, the frogs, the broomsticks, the big 429 00:30:53,465 --> 00:30:54,105 cauldron. 430 00:30:54,105 --> 00:30:57,785 Georgia Hampton: That's Alex Frampton, a PhD candidate of 431 00:30:57,785 --> 00:31:02,265 forensic psychology who co wrote a study in 2022 called In the 432 00:31:02,265 --> 00:31:06,000 Broom Closet, exploring the role of online communities in shaping 433 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,400 the identities of contemporary witchcraft practitioners. In her 434 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,080 study, she spoke to a group of 16 witches who found community 435 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,760 through online groups. And as she explained to me, these 436 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,235 groups can each have their own relationship to stereotypes of 437 00:31:21,235 --> 00:31:23,715 what witches are and what they look like. 438 00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:26,435 Alex Frampton: So, you know, all of these things are very 439 00:31:26,995 --> 00:31:29,635 cartoonish. It's very cartoonish depictions. 440 00:31:30,195 --> 00:31:32,675 Georgia Hampton: Some of the witches that Alex spoke to did 441 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:36,460 find community sometimes through these stereotypes. By either 442 00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:40,220 subverting them, joking about them, or even reflecting them in 443 00:31:40,220 --> 00:31:45,340 their own way. And to her point, the stereotypes are really for 444 00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:49,715 the witch to use or reject as they see fit. If you want to 445 00:31:49,715 --> 00:31:52,755 turn your kitchen into the practical magic house, there's 446 00:31:52,755 --> 00:31:57,235 nothing inherently wrong with that. If anything, it might do 447 00:31:57,235 --> 00:32:00,595 work to invite more witch curious people into the fold. 448 00:32:01,930 --> 00:32:05,770 As the concept of the occult becomes more cartoonish, unless 449 00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:11,290 actually frightening, it becomes safe. And by being safe, for 450 00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:14,890 some, it can serve as an easier way into that world. 451 00:32:15,165 --> 00:32:17,405 Alex Frampton: Sometimes it can be a gateway. You might be into 452 00:32:17,405 --> 00:32:20,365 the aesthetic and actually gain some real insights into your 453 00:32:20,365 --> 00:32:22,525 values and actually do develop a practice. 454 00:32:23,005 --> 00:32:26,365 Georgia Hampton: And one of the most potent examples of this is, 455 00:32:26,605 --> 00:32:31,530 well, practical magic. The green faced crone is transmogrified 456 00:32:31,530 --> 00:32:35,530 into Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, who are young and hot 457 00:32:35,530 --> 00:32:39,930 and cool and make it seem like we too could be a little witchy 458 00:32:39,930 --> 00:32:44,055 if we wanted to be. It's a deliciously inviting world of 459 00:32:44,055 --> 00:32:48,535 witchcraft to operate within. I wanna live in that world. And if 460 00:32:48,535 --> 00:32:52,135 I saw a witch online who was offering her services surrounded 461 00:32:52,135 --> 00:32:56,860 by the aesthetic signifiers of practical magic, I mean, it 462 00:32:56,860 --> 00:32:58,140 might work on me. 463 00:32:59,660 --> 00:33:04,540 And again, that isn't necessarily bad. But there is 464 00:33:04,780 --> 00:33:05,900 tension here. 465 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,260 Alex Frampton: And that's because just looking the part 466 00:33:09,885 --> 00:33:13,325 isn't always the same as embodying it. What you do lose 467 00:33:13,325 --> 00:33:16,925 kind of if you kind of only went as far as the aesthetic is you 468 00:33:16,925 --> 00:33:19,885 do lose that connection to history and you do lose that 469 00:33:19,885 --> 00:33:22,605 connection to, okay, why do people practice witchcraft in 470 00:33:22,605 --> 00:33:23,165 the first place? 471 00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:27,820 Georgia Hampton: Witchcraft looks different for everyone who 472 00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:32,700 practices it. There's no bible, no unified spiritual leader. You 473 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:36,060 get to define how your practice looks and who you choose to 474 00:33:36,060 --> 00:33:40,065 invite into it, if anyone at all. There's huge variations 475 00:33:40,065 --> 00:33:43,745 between practitioners of witchcraft. But Alex explained 476 00:33:43,745 --> 00:33:47,345 to me that from the people she spoke to in her study, there was 477 00:33:47,345 --> 00:33:49,425 one big overlapping factor. 478 00:33:49,425 --> 00:33:51,760 Alex Frampton: They'd experienced some sort of 479 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,120 exclusion in some capacity, some kind of social exclusion. So 480 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,280 whether it was, you know, the the more kind of wider female 481 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,505 experience of misogyny or it could be something like to do 482 00:34:03,505 --> 00:34:06,065 with their health, whether it was their mental health or their 483 00:34:06,065 --> 00:34:09,265 physical health. But in some way, they felt that society had 484 00:34:09,265 --> 00:34:13,745 been quite exclusionary. Any any kind of social exclusion, kind 485 00:34:13,745 --> 00:34:17,440 of finding witchcraft, it provided, you know, a place for 486 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,280 them to to find their tribe, so to speak, or to be able to 487 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,240 express parts of their identities that maybe would not 488 00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:26,480 be so accepted in mainstream society. 489 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,065 Georgia Hampton: And for the intrepid witch who wants to find 490 00:34:30,065 --> 00:34:32,945 a community of like minded people who share in the same 491 00:34:32,945 --> 00:34:37,185 experiences, the Internet is great for that. But it's also 492 00:34:37,185 --> 00:34:41,665 great for, like I said, showmanship. And that's where 493 00:34:41,665 --> 00:34:47,820 the tension lies. Performance is part of the craft, especially if 494 00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:51,740 you're offering services online. But there does seem to be a 495 00:34:51,740 --> 00:34:56,265 limit to how much one should rely on that performance at the 496 00:34:56,265 --> 00:34:59,945 sake of ignoring that shared experience of marginalization. 497 00:35:00,425 --> 00:35:02,025 Mahigan St. Pierre: Throughout history and traditionally 498 00:35:02,025 --> 00:35:04,745 speaking, where you're gonna find your conjurers, your 499 00:35:04,745 --> 00:35:08,505 witches, etcetera, is gonna be within the context of community. 500 00:35:08,585 --> 00:35:12,290 The act of sorcery, the act of enacting change through magic or 501 00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:16,290 through traffic with spirits is something that is really 502 00:35:16,290 --> 00:35:20,370 difficult to do outside of the context of community simply for 503 00:35:20,370 --> 00:35:24,255 the fact that if, you know, you're not engaging with 504 00:35:24,255 --> 00:35:26,815 community, engaging with people around you and you're not, you 505 00:35:26,815 --> 00:35:30,415 know, taking on other people's problems, there's only so much 506 00:35:30,415 --> 00:35:33,935 that you can really do for yourself. Right? And so you then 507 00:35:33,935 --> 00:35:37,850 steer away from sorcery to then just spirituality. Right? 508 00:35:37,850 --> 00:35:42,410 And that's where the line kind of draws itself between devotion 509 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:46,330 or worship versus actually working spirits. 510 00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:50,490 Georgia Hampton: It feels like online, the process breaks down 511 00:35:50,490 --> 00:35:54,935 like this. Showmanship gets attention. That attention might, 512 00:35:54,935 --> 00:35:58,935 at first, form a kind of community. But after a while, if 513 00:35:58,935 --> 00:36:03,015 you're not careful, that desire for showmanship can easily eat 514 00:36:03,015 --> 00:36:07,420 away at any real creation of interpersonal relationships. The 515 00:36:07,420 --> 00:36:11,100 old razzle dazzle does work at getting more people through the 516 00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:11,660 door. 517 00:36:12,060 --> 00:36:15,980 But if that's the only thing you offer, then whatever community 518 00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:22,745 that once existed kind of falls away. And to a degree, I think 519 00:36:22,745 --> 00:36:25,705 that's kind of the tried and true story of the Internet as a 520 00:36:25,705 --> 00:36:29,785 marketplace for business. In a visually dominant digital world, 521 00:36:30,025 --> 00:36:34,900 attention is an undeniable currency. And if you're willing 522 00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:38,340 to sacrifice community for the sake of getting more attention 523 00:36:38,580 --> 00:36:42,340 and therefore more money in the bank, then the Internet is a 524 00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:49,205 flawless place for business. Witchcraft is not the only group 525 00:36:49,205 --> 00:36:51,365 that has had this kind of flattening happen to them 526 00:36:51,365 --> 00:36:52,085 online. 527 00:36:52,325 --> 00:36:56,245 But it's a very good example of this perfect formula. The 528 00:36:56,245 --> 00:37:00,405 overvaluing of the aesthetic of a niche group, plus the use of 529 00:37:00,405 --> 00:37:06,840 that aesthetic to make money. But it's not really money that's 530 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,920 the problem here. Witchcraft has always been a business. The 531 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,840 trouble here is commercialization. 532 00:37:13,505 --> 00:37:17,025 It's taking a centuries old practice of empowerment through 533 00:37:17,025 --> 00:37:22,065 agency and turning it into an AI image of a black haired witch 534 00:37:22,065 --> 00:37:31,710 glowering in front of The Internet should be a great place 535 00:37:31,710 --> 00:37:36,510 for witchcraft as an industry. And for Mehegan, it is. But it's 536 00:37:36,510 --> 00:37:39,070 also just a piece of the puzzle. 537 00:37:39,230 --> 00:37:41,630 Mahigan St. Pierre: In terms of offering services, it's not for 538 00:37:41,630 --> 00:37:45,685 everyone. Right? Offering the services part is kind of a thing 539 00:37:45,685 --> 00:37:47,845 you might be drawn to or that you might not be drawn to 540 00:37:47,845 --> 00:37:51,365 depending on your own practice. But for me, there always needs 541 00:37:51,365 --> 00:37:54,485 to be a component whether or not you're charging for services of 542 00:37:54,485 --> 00:37:58,325 acting on behalf of the living towards the world of spirits and 543 00:37:58,325 --> 00:38:00,485 then on behalf of spirits towards the world of the living. 544 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,920 So you're really like an agent of change and agent of 545 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:04,800 relationship. 546 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,840 Georgia Hampton: They're able to work with people who live all 547 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,320 over the world towards these goals. And that's powerful. The 548 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,600 Internet also gets their name out there to more people more 549 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,685 quickly. But taking your business online and having it be 550 00:38:19,685 --> 00:38:23,845 successful is a multi headed beast. Building a community 551 00:38:23,845 --> 00:38:27,125 online is one of the heads of the Hydra. 552 00:38:27,365 --> 00:38:32,620 But there's a second more troublesome one too. You said 553 00:38:32,620 --> 00:38:36,700 that doing this work online is kind of a pain in the ass. 554 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:37,260 Mike Rugnetta: Mhmm. 555 00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:38,220 Georgia Hampton: How? 556 00:38:38,220 --> 00:38:40,140 Mahigan St. Pierre: I signed up to be a witch, not a social 557 00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:44,635 media manager. You know, spiritual people and witchcraft 558 00:38:44,635 --> 00:38:49,275 people and people with active magical practices often do not 559 00:38:49,515 --> 00:38:54,555 have the interest to delve into what it means to be an online 560 00:38:54,555 --> 00:38:58,580 personality. Right? That's not that's not what people signed up 561 00:38:58,580 --> 00:39:00,980 for. But unfortunately, it's the reality of things nowadays. 562 00:39:01,460 --> 00:39:03,860 Georgia Hampton: For someone like Maheegan, that might mean 563 00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:08,035 posting on Instagram on a schedule or fielding DMs. The 564 00:39:08,035 --> 00:39:11,795 net they're casting is ostensibly broad. Their website 565 00:39:11,795 --> 00:39:16,195 or podcast could, in theory, reach anyone. But they are not 566 00:39:16,195 --> 00:39:19,875 sacrificing their relationship to community for the sake of 567 00:39:19,875 --> 00:39:23,170 attracting the most amount of attention. But the internet 568 00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:27,970 makes it extremely easy to overvalue performance at the 569 00:39:27,970 --> 00:39:30,530 cost of building a real community. 570 00:39:30,850 --> 00:39:35,010 Sacrificing that interpersonal connection at the altar of SEO. 571 00:39:35,625 --> 00:39:38,905 There's a fine line between marketing yourself and 572 00:39:38,905 --> 00:39:42,905 sanitizing the subculture you represent, of turning witchcraft 573 00:39:42,905 --> 00:39:47,865 into a carnival game. Something flashy, fun, and forgettable. 574 00:39:49,330 --> 00:39:52,930 And if you really wanted to lean into the Zoltar machine method 575 00:39:52,930 --> 00:39:58,210 of things, there is no better platform to do it than Etsy. 576 00:39:58,770 --> 00:40:01,890 You're not going to Etsy in search of curses to find a 577 00:40:01,890 --> 00:40:02,770 semblance of community. 578 00:40:03,255 --> 00:40:08,455 You're going there to spend $12.74 on a hex removal spell. 579 00:40:08,695 --> 00:40:11,255 There's a reason that so many of the thumbnails I saw on that 580 00:40:11,255 --> 00:40:15,975 site were using AI imagery. It makes sense. It's honestly a 581 00:40:15,975 --> 00:40:20,090 perfect choice for what's being sold there. AI imagery has no 582 00:40:20,090 --> 00:40:23,850 soul, no human touch, no personality. 583 00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:27,450 And while I am sure that there are some witches on the platform 584 00:40:27,450 --> 00:40:32,695 who use it very sincerely, Etsy lends itself to a kind of 585 00:40:32,695 --> 00:40:38,935 anonymous impersonal exchange. Etsy is, in many ways, the 586 00:40:38,935 --> 00:40:43,015 perfect example of how any niche community can be sanitized 587 00:40:43,015 --> 00:40:45,800 online through commercialization. There's no 588 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,240 community. There's no interpersonal relations beyond 589 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:53,080 clicking purchase. It trivializes witchcraft into its 590 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,920 most mimetic form. 591 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,255 But the truth is no one is safe from the way that witchcraft has 592 00:40:59,255 --> 00:41:03,255 been defined historically. It makes me think of what Alex said 593 00:41:03,255 --> 00:41:07,095 earlier, how it can be dangerous to only think of the aesthetics 594 00:41:07,095 --> 00:41:11,495 of witchcraft and ignore the reasons why people turn to it in 595 00:41:11,495 --> 00:41:16,030 the first place. I think Etsy shows the consequences of that 596 00:41:16,030 --> 00:41:19,870 exact kind of thinking. Regardless of the intentions of 597 00:41:19,870 --> 00:41:24,110 any given practitioner on the site, the meme of the Etsy witch 598 00:41:24,270 --> 00:41:27,550 does turn the craft into something cheap and easy. 599 00:41:28,365 --> 00:41:31,885 Offering services like spell work becomes a funny way to 600 00:41:31,885 --> 00:41:33,885 spend $12.74. 601 00:41:34,605 --> 00:41:39,165 Until it's not funny anymore. For the people buying these 602 00:41:39,165 --> 00:41:42,205 services, something like the Charlie Kirk debacle could be 603 00:41:42,205 --> 00:41:46,600 just another joke, another meme. Hell, it could drive more 604 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,600 traffic to Etsy. But for the practitioners selling these 605 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,160 services, it's very real. If you hex the wrong person in the 606 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,285 wrong way, like Charlie Kirk, for example, you could get the 607 00:41:59,285 --> 00:42:02,085 wrong kind of attention from the wrong kind of people. 608 00:42:04,165 --> 00:42:09,045 Community is what acts as a protector for witches. And Etsy 609 00:42:09,045 --> 00:42:13,250 just doesn't enable the kind of personal, intimate exchange of 610 00:42:13,250 --> 00:42:17,410 energy that is so foundational to witchcraft. It will not 611 00:42:17,410 --> 00:42:21,090 encourage the community that has uplifted witchcraft as a 612 00:42:21,090 --> 00:42:25,805 practice for centuries. That's just not the business model. On 613 00:42:25,805 --> 00:42:29,325 Etsy, if you come back from the holidays thinking that Meemaw 614 00:42:29,325 --> 00:42:33,005 cast a curse on you and you wanna buy a hex removal spell, 615 00:42:33,165 --> 00:42:34,445 it takes two seconds. 616 00:42:35,085 --> 00:42:39,565 Nobody's going to tell you no. But the craft is a little more 617 00:42:39,565 --> 00:42:43,600 complicated than just clicking add to cart, and that's sort of 618 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:44,320 the point. 619 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,760 Mahigan St. Pierre: There's something to be said about, you 620 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,520 know, this work very much being part of the demi monde. 621 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:52,480 Georgia Hampton: What do you mean by that? 622 00:42:52,865 --> 00:42:55,985 Mahigan St. Pierre: Without without getting too too rated 623 00:42:55,985 --> 00:43:00,945 rated 18, you know, sex workers and pimps and drug dealers and 624 00:43:00,945 --> 00:43:03,825 those kinds of things. All of the like sketchy business that 625 00:43:03,825 --> 00:43:07,400 goes on at night, magical work is kind of a part of. Right? 626 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,120 Just because of the nature of the work that we do. I mean, 627 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,680 you're breaking into cemeteries in the middle of the night, 628 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,400 burying shit, you know, etcetera etcetera. 629 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,320 You might be hired to, you know, curse people or to, you know, do 630 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,955 a bunch of different things like that. And so the moral compass 631 00:43:21,955 --> 00:43:27,795 needs to be developed and finely attuned for sure. Who do you go 632 00:43:27,795 --> 00:43:31,235 to when, you know, you need to get an edge on the competition 633 00:43:31,235 --> 00:43:33,955 even though you're in a high ranking position? You go to the 634 00:43:33,955 --> 00:43:36,150 people who are a little sketchy and who will do whatever needs 635 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:39,990 to get done. And, you know, who do you go to when you're really 636 00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:42,470 down on your luck and you're at the bottom of the barrel? 637 00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:43,350 Same story. You know? 638 00:43:59,915 --> 00:44:03,995 Georgia Hampton: A huge thank you to Alex Frampton and Mehegan 639 00:44:03,995 --> 00:44:08,030 St. Pierre who both offered such interesting and insightful 640 00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:11,390 perspectives on this topic. I'll include links to Alex's study 641 00:44:11,390 --> 00:44:14,830 and Mahegan's website in the show notes. If you're a witch or 642 00:44:14,830 --> 00:44:18,030 someone who is spiritually connected to witchy things, I'm 643 00:44:18,030 --> 00:44:20,750 curious how you've interacted with the craft as it exists 644 00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:25,005 online. And if you bought a curse or a spell on Etsy, I 645 00:44:25,005 --> 00:44:26,525 wanna hear from you too. 646 00:44:26,925 --> 00:44:31,085 Why did you do it? What did you expect? The links for how to 647 00:44:31,085 --> 00:44:32,765 contact us in the show notes. 648 00:47:11,435 --> 00:47:14,075 Mike Rugnetta: That is the show we have for you this week. We 649 00:47:14,075 --> 00:47:16,715 are gonna be back here in the main feed on Wednesday, November 650 00:47:16,715 --> 00:47:22,795 5. Each episode of Never Post represents a couple 100 person 651 00:47:22,795 --> 00:47:27,400 hours of work by a team of six people, hand researched, 652 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,440 handwritten, hand scored, hand sound design, hand spoken into a 653 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,840 microphone, and then hand edited with a mouse on a computer. At 654 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,960 two episodes a month, that means that our $4 a month membership 655 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,095 gets you bespoke, ad free, human made, agonized over podcast 656 00:47:45,095 --> 00:47:52,695 episodes for $2 a pop. Was this episode that you just listened 657 00:47:52,695 --> 00:47:56,360 to $2 worth of entertainment to you? 658 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,680 If it was, please head on over to neverpo.st and become a 659 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,040 member today. Support your favorite local indie internet 660 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,705 pod so that we can keep telling you about which witch is a 661 00:48:09,705 --> 00:48:14,185 witch's witch. Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, 662 00:48:14,185 --> 00:48:16,745 Georgia Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name, 663 00:48:16,745 --> 00:48:20,105 last name. Our senior producer is Hans Buto. Our executive 664 00:48:20,105 --> 00:48:21,970 producer is Jason Oberholzer. 665 00:48:21,970 --> 00:48:27,330 The show's host, that's me, is Mike Krugnetta. We asked, what 666 00:48:27,330 --> 00:48:32,290 is this? It rustled. We dug a hole. What is this? 667 00:48:32,290 --> 00:48:36,735 We asked. Anocturama? No. We agreed. The thing was not 668 00:48:36,735 --> 00:48:37,695 anocturama. 669 00:48:37,695 --> 00:48:41,935 Anocturama is when you cannot catch their breath. We nodded. 670 00:48:42,015 --> 00:48:46,095 We dug a hole. Our white hair warmed around the thing. We 671 00:48:46,095 --> 00:48:48,015 asked, is this a genesis? 672 00:48:49,295 --> 00:48:53,750 No. We agreed. The thing was not a genesis. A genesis is when he 673 00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:56,950 sweeps across the water. We nodded. 674 00:48:56,950 --> 00:49:00,950 It rustled. We stood closer to each other. We asked, what is 675 00:49:00,950 --> 00:49:08,965 this? A stillness? Excerpt of the experiments lasted through 676 00:49:08,965 --> 00:49:11,765 the winter by Sabrina Ora Mark. 677 00:49:12,805 --> 00:49:15,685 Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and 678 00:49:15,685 --> 00:49:17,925 distributed by Radiotopia.