1 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,515 Hans Buetow: Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a show 2 00:00:14,515 --> 00:00:18,915 for and about the Internet. I am your senior producer and today's 3 00:00:18,915 --> 00:00:24,595 host of the show Hans Buto. I am also a resident of Minnesota, 4 00:00:24,595 --> 00:00:27,475 born and raised in the Twin Cities. I am sixth generation 5 00:00:27,475 --> 00:00:33,550 Saint Paul, and I'm coming to you now in your ears with a 6 00:00:33,550 --> 00:00:37,230 sudden unexpected off publish day episode because my state, 7 00:00:37,230 --> 00:00:40,830 Minnesota, is at the epicenter of a few things that are 8 00:00:40,830 --> 00:00:45,125 happening right now in politics. I'm realizing that I don't 9 00:00:45,125 --> 00:00:47,845 really fully understand all of it and I need some help. 10 00:00:47,925 --> 00:00:50,725 If I'm a local who's having trouble I can only imagine how 11 00:00:50,725 --> 00:00:54,325 confusing it is if you have questions about Minnesota and 12 00:00:54,325 --> 00:00:59,460 what on earth is happening but you don't live here. So today, I 13 00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:02,180 am hoping to get some perspective with the help of one 14 00:01:02,180 --> 00:01:06,660 of my favorite local reporters in the Twin Cities to help me 15 00:01:06,660 --> 00:01:09,940 understand because local reporting, if you don't know, 16 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:15,015 helps us understand ourselves. We're gonna understand a little 17 00:01:15,015 --> 00:01:17,175 bit about how this what this has to do with the Internet, which 18 00:01:17,175 --> 00:01:20,135 is spoiler alert quite a bit because of just, you know, how 19 00:01:20,135 --> 00:01:23,095 the world is, what the administration is. But I have 20 00:01:23,095 --> 00:01:27,110 with me to help me understand M Castle. Hello. 21 00:01:27,110 --> 00:01:32,150 Hello, M. I'm so happy I'm to see so happy to see you. You are 22 00:01:32,150 --> 00:01:36,390 the co owner and founder of the excellent local independent 23 00:01:36,390 --> 00:01:41,065 journalism powerhouse Racket, which covers arts, culture, 24 00:01:41,305 --> 00:01:45,225 restaurants, politics, kind of everything else relevant to 25 00:01:45,225 --> 00:01:47,785 living here in the Twin Cities. I redo every day, and I'm so 26 00:01:47,785 --> 00:01:49,145 happy to be talking to you. 27 00:01:49,385 --> 00:01:51,785 Em Cassel: It is such an honor to be here, Hans. Thank you so 28 00:01:51,785 --> 00:01:53,305 much. We have a lot of fun doing what we do. 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,640 Hans Buetow: Yeah. I can tell and I love having fun alongside 30 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,760 you and with you, and you helped me have more fun in the cities 31 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:00,560 by far. 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,560 Em Cassel: I hope that's true. Yeah. 33 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,715 Hans Buetow: So, Em, you have been out in the streets, in the 34 00:02:06,715 --> 00:02:10,875 courtrooms, in the press conferences for Racket, and just 35 00:02:10,875 --> 00:02:13,435 generally reporting on all things that are happening in 36 00:02:13,435 --> 00:02:17,115 Minnesota. Right now, that's a lot of fraud and a lot of ICE 37 00:02:17,355 --> 00:02:22,160 And in I bring both of these together side by side because 38 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,120 with the congressional hearings on fraud, all of the comments 39 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,320 that are happening about fraud all over the place, and now with 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,720 the surge that's happening in Minnesota with the killing of 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:36,015 Renee Goode earlier this week by ICE, I think there's reasons 42 00:02:36,015 --> 00:02:39,215 that everyone is looking at our state. 43 00:02:39,295 --> 00:02:42,335 Em Cassel: Yeah, Minnesota and the twin cities specifically 44 00:02:42,335 --> 00:02:44,975 like once again finds itself at kind of the epicenter of the 45 00:02:44,975 --> 00:02:49,610 national attention, which is unusual. It's another, just a 46 00:02:49,610 --> 00:02:51,530 weird thing from the last couple of years. 47 00:02:51,530 --> 00:02:53,530 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Once again, and I want to get to that 48 00:02:53,530 --> 00:02:56,490 because I have a lot of questions about why once again, 49 00:02:56,490 --> 00:02:58,650 but I want to walk up to it because I think that these 50 00:02:58,650 --> 00:03:03,305 stories of fraud, which some people may or may not have heard 51 00:03:03,305 --> 00:03:07,545 of, and the ICE surge and killing that most people 52 00:03:07,545 --> 00:03:10,665 probably have heard of, I think they're deeply related and 53 00:03:10,665 --> 00:03:13,625 connected to each other, and I think the through line to them 54 00:03:13,945 --> 00:03:18,710 is the internet. And I'm really curious to step through them all 55 00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:22,070 to better just have a sense of what they are so that I just 56 00:03:22,070 --> 00:03:25,510 know what they are, and then to map them against the Internet. 57 00:03:25,830 --> 00:03:28,950 And I want to do that by looking at three moments in recent 58 00:03:28,950 --> 00:03:30,070 history, if that works for you. 59 00:03:30,070 --> 00:03:30,550 Em Cassel: I love it. 60 00:03:30,925 --> 00:03:32,765 Hans Buetow: Great. So let's take a quick pause, and unless 61 00:03:32,765 --> 00:03:35,405 you're a member, you're gonna hear a quick break. And then 62 00:03:35,405 --> 00:03:53,650 let's start with fraud in Minnesota. Okay. Let's start 63 00:03:53,650 --> 00:03:57,010 ourselves off in Minnesota in June 2024. 64 00:03:57,010 --> 00:04:02,035 So two big things happen with fraud in June 2024. And the 65 00:04:02,035 --> 00:04:08,355 first of those is a 200 or so page report comes out from the 66 00:04:08,355 --> 00:04:11,795 Minnesota Department of Legislative Auditor, which is 67 00:04:11,955 --> 00:04:15,040 looking into the Minnesota Department of Education and 68 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,320 their oversight of the Minnesota nonprofit. That's a lot of 69 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,440 layers. So Department of Legislative Auditor reports on 70 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,920 the Department of Education who's been giving money to a 71 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,640 nonprofit called Feeding Our Future. So Em, can you walk us 72 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,000 through what is this report? 73 00:04:29,095 --> 00:04:31,655 Why is this being done about Feeding Our Future? 74 00:04:31,735 --> 00:04:35,575 Em Cassel: Certainly, yes. So the broadest strokes answer is 75 00:04:35,575 --> 00:04:38,055 that Feeding Our Future and the people associated with Feeding 76 00:04:38,055 --> 00:04:42,935 Our Future have been perpetrating massive fraud. They 77 00:04:42,935 --> 00:04:45,670 have referred to it you know, since looking back as sort of 78 00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:51,430 the the biggest pandemic program fraud in the country. Wow. In 79 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:54,630 the end, you're gonna have more than 50 people so far Yeah. 80 00:04:54,630 --> 00:04:58,870 Convicted of stealing so far, dollars 250,000,000 through this 81 00:04:58,870 --> 00:05:02,845 fraud, which is, I don't need to tell you, Hans, a tremendous 82 00:05:02,845 --> 00:05:07,325 amount of money. The start of the story is actually really 83 00:05:07,325 --> 00:05:11,565 back in 2020 when the pandemic hits, schools are closed, 84 00:05:11,565 --> 00:05:16,160 schools are not feeding lunches to children. And as a reaction 85 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,280 to that, the federal government kind of lowers the requirements 86 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:23,120 for states to access, what's called federal child nutrition 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,400 programs money. So this is what feeds underprivileged children, 88 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,405 and these funds are distributed by the Minnesota Department of 89 00:05:30,405 --> 00:05:33,045 Education. So that's kind of like the, like, just laying the 90 00:05:33,045 --> 00:05:36,645 very basic groundwork for, like, what will become this massive 91 00:05:36,645 --> 00:05:37,285 fraud. 92 00:05:37,605 --> 00:05:42,900 Feeding Our Future, in response, starts working with a ton of 93 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:45,860 other vendors. Like, they're kind of this this broader 94 00:05:45,860 --> 00:05:49,940 nonprofit that works with, vendors. They also call them 95 00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:54,625 food sites, I think, on the ground. And they start upping 96 00:05:54,625 --> 00:05:56,705 the number of vendors they're working with. I think it ends up 97 00:05:56,705 --> 00:05:58,545 being around 70 at one point. 98 00:05:59,105 --> 00:06:03,665 And the vendors who they're working with are saying that 99 00:06:03,665 --> 00:06:07,910 they're feeding a tremendous number of meals to local 100 00:06:07,910 --> 00:06:10,550 children. Like, there's one restaurant, it's a small 101 00:06:10,550 --> 00:06:14,150 restaurant that says it's feeding lunch to 6,000 kids a 102 00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:18,550 day. There's another site in Wilmar, Minnesota that says it's 103 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:21,990 feeding 2,000 kids a week, which would be like half of the school 104 00:06:21,555 --> 00:06:22,595 district's population. 105 00:06:22,675 --> 00:06:23,395 Hans Buetow: Oh my goodness. 106 00:06:23,395 --> 00:06:26,515 Em Cassel: The math does not math to use the nuance of our 107 00:06:26,515 --> 00:06:31,235 times. So and so, you know, fairly quickly, actually, people 108 00:06:31,235 --> 00:06:36,090 are raising alarm bells about these figures. As early as, I 109 00:06:36,090 --> 00:06:39,610 think, October 2020, people are are reaching out to the 110 00:06:39,610 --> 00:06:41,930 Department of Education and saying, like, this doesn't seem 111 00:06:42,170 --> 00:06:42,810 quite right. 112 00:06:42,810 --> 00:06:44,730 Hans Buetow: How can you actually feed? How are there 113 00:06:44,730 --> 00:06:47,610 that many kids in the first place? But how do you feed all 114 00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:50,250 of them? Can you feed 12,000 kids? Practically, 115 00:06:50,715 --> 00:06:53,675 Em Cassel: You cannot feed this many children this many meals. 116 00:06:53,675 --> 00:06:57,115 Like, it just it doesn't add up. The end result is that by May 117 00:06:57,115 --> 00:07:01,435 2021, the FBI is now involved. They are investigating the 118 00:07:01,435 --> 00:07:04,155 claims that Feeding Our Future and Feeding Our Future's vendors 119 00:07:04,155 --> 00:07:08,950 have been filing false claims. It all eventually snowballs. 120 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:15,270 By 2022, the FBI is raiding the the businesses and individuals 121 00:07:15,270 --> 00:07:20,555 who are, sort of associated with this fraud. And then finally, by 122 00:07:20,555 --> 00:07:25,435 September 2022, charges are brought against 48 total people, 123 00:07:25,435 --> 00:07:29,675 I think, as the first time for around $250,000,000 in this 124 00:07:29,675 --> 00:07:35,050 money, which has been spent on things like personal trips. Amy 125 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:38,250 Bach, who's kind of widely referred to as the ringleader in 126 00:07:38,250 --> 00:07:38,970 air Yeah. Quotes 127 00:07:39,130 --> 00:07:39,690 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Of this, 128 00:07:39,690 --> 00:07:44,010 Em Cassel: yes, of this fraud. She is accused of spending tens 129 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:48,345 of thousands of dollars on things like trips to Vegas. I 130 00:07:48,345 --> 00:07:51,305 think her boyfriend took, like, a huge trip to Vegas. And, like, 131 00:07:51,305 --> 00:07:54,425 spent a bunch of, like Cartier or whatever. Like, don't know. 132 00:07:54,425 --> 00:07:58,505 Yeah. It's, like, really, like, like, extravagant fraud. Like, 133 00:07:58,505 --> 00:08:02,790 not even this is not, like, super sneaky. It's, like, it's, 134 00:08:02,790 --> 00:08:04,710 like, pretty bold. Yeah. 135 00:08:04,950 --> 00:08:07,990 Brazen, I think, is a word that comes up a lot in media 136 00:08:07,990 --> 00:08:13,030 reportage around this fraud is, like, it was really brazen. 137 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:15,975 Hans Buetow: And I think that's kind of like, I it's weird to 138 00:08:15,975 --> 00:08:19,975 laugh at fraud and be like, these people stealing millions 139 00:08:19,975 --> 00:08:23,975 of dollars from us. Doesn't that suck? But I think when 140 00:08:23,975 --> 00:08:26,855 something's that brazen, that's You do kinda have to laugh. 141 00:08:26,855 --> 00:08:28,615 Yeah. There's like element of like, what? 142 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,720 Em Cassel: Yeah. Like, this is like cartoonish levels of fraud. 143 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,640 Like, you like, I guess how did they think they would get away 144 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,280 with it? And then, like, second, how did they get away with it 145 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:40,160 for as long as they did? 146 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,320 Hans Buetow: As long as they did. And we're under 147 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,935 investigation and still doing it and spending the money. And I 148 00:08:45,935 --> 00:08:48,335 remember one of the things that sticks in my mind about the 149 00:08:48,335 --> 00:08:51,135 whole process was there was one point where they were going on 150 00:08:51,135 --> 00:08:53,695 trials after the charges got brought, they were going on 151 00:08:53,695 --> 00:08:58,575 trial and they tried they gave one of the jurors a $150,000 or 152 00:08:58,575 --> 00:08:58,815 something. 153 00:08:59,790 --> 00:09:01,790 Em Cassel: Yeah. There was a really weird situation where 154 00:09:01,790 --> 00:09:04,670 they, like, dropped off a little, like, gift bag full of 155 00:09:04,670 --> 00:09:07,710 cash on one of the jurors' doorsteps. 156 00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:07,870 Hans Buetow: I 157 00:09:07,870 --> 00:09:12,510 Em Cassel: mean, really, like, there are weird layers to this, 158 00:09:12,510 --> 00:09:15,855 the way this fraud was perpetrated. And then and truly, 159 00:09:15,855 --> 00:09:18,335 like, the way that they still thought, like, maybe we can get 160 00:09:18,335 --> 00:09:22,175 away with this. Like, maybe we'll bribe a juror. Yeah. Let's 161 00:09:22,175 --> 00:09:22,735 do it. 162 00:09:23,055 --> 00:09:27,055 Hans Buetow: So so in 2024, this report comes out about the 163 00:09:27,055 --> 00:09:29,375 Department of Education and how they handled it. So what did 164 00:09:29,375 --> 00:09:33,140 this report in 2024 tell us about how all of this stuff over 165 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:34,500 those couple years was handled? 166 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:38,020 Em Cassel: Yeah. The report, I would say, is kind of damning. 167 00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:41,780 It it's long. It's like a 100 page report. But the upshot is 168 00:09:41,780 --> 00:09:44,795 that, like, the Minnesota Department of Education failed 169 00:09:44,795 --> 00:09:46,155 on several fronts. 170 00:09:46,155 --> 00:09:50,315 So for one, they failed to act on the warning signs, like, 171 00:09:50,315 --> 00:09:53,355 before the COVID nineteen pandemic had even set in that, 172 00:09:53,355 --> 00:09:55,690 like, there are not the right guardrails in place. Like, we 173 00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:58,330 don't have the right systems in place to begin identifying this 174 00:09:58,330 --> 00:10:01,930 kind of fraud. Then after that, that the department did not 175 00:10:01,930 --> 00:10:05,210 effectively exercise its authority, I think is the phrase 176 00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:07,795 that they used to basically, like, hold Feeding Our Future 177 00:10:07,795 --> 00:10:11,875 accountable. Like, they have ways that they could have 178 00:10:12,195 --> 00:10:14,355 stopped this fraud from happening, and they did not have 179 00:10:14,355 --> 00:10:17,395 it. You know, they had people contacting them and saying, hey, 180 00:10:17,555 --> 00:10:21,980 this fraud is happening and continued to pay out money to 181 00:10:21,980 --> 00:10:25,260 Feeding Our Future and and therefore to its, you know, 182 00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:26,140 vendor sites. 183 00:10:26,140 --> 00:10:30,220 And then thirdly, that the department was ill prepared to 184 00:10:30,220 --> 00:10:34,380 respond then. So, like, they were alerted to the fraud. They 185 00:10:34,380 --> 00:10:37,295 kind of knew that it was happening, and yet they're they 186 00:10:37,295 --> 00:10:40,975 did not respond in any kind of way. I mean, truly, until kind 187 00:10:40,975 --> 00:10:44,015 of the FBI gets involved, like Yeah. You are a government 188 00:10:44,015 --> 00:10:44,495 agency. 189 00:10:44,495 --> 00:10:45,375 Get it together. 190 00:10:45,455 --> 00:10:47,535 Hans Buetow: So and they're not the only government agency. So 191 00:10:47,535 --> 00:10:50,255 this is what the other thing that happens in June 2024, this 192 00:10:50,255 --> 00:10:55,930 report comes out, and at the same moment is the FBI starts 193 00:10:55,930 --> 00:11:01,050 investigating for Medicaid fraud in autism centers, because 194 00:11:01,050 --> 00:11:04,490 suddenly autism centers around the state have increased 195 00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:08,090 spending 700% in five years, and a whole bunch of other metrics 196 00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:11,425 are just suddenly there's all of this money going into these 197 00:11:11,425 --> 00:11:15,265 autism centers without any related rise in the need for 198 00:11:15,265 --> 00:11:19,345 them. Since then, seven people have been charged, some of those 199 00:11:19,345 --> 00:11:23,370 people with connections to Feeding Our Future. And then in 200 00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:26,970 2025, the next year, the Minnesota Department of Human 201 00:11:26,970 --> 00:11:32,410 Services suspended the housing stabilization benefit, which 202 00:11:32,410 --> 00:11:35,370 they did because they said there were credible allegations of 203 00:11:35,370 --> 00:11:41,095 fraud from 77 providers, and 13 people have been charged since 204 00:11:41,095 --> 00:11:46,375 then. All told, with all of these different avenues of fraud 205 00:11:46,615 --> 00:11:51,175 in Minnesota in these government situations, 98 people have been 206 00:11:51,175 --> 00:11:54,560 charged with various fraud schemes in various sectors since 207 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:00,880 2022, totaling, prosecutors say, a possible $9,000,000,000 of 208 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:01,920 stolen money. 209 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,560 Em Cassel: It's a huge amount of money. Billion with a b. 210 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,015 Hans Buetow: When we see these congressional meetings and we 211 00:12:09,015 --> 00:12:11,655 hear people talking about fraud, there is a legitimate thing to 212 00:12:11,655 --> 00:12:19,335 say. There was fraud committed. Yeah, and it was rampant. So I 213 00:12:19,335 --> 00:12:22,055 think it's important then for the rest of this story to say, 214 00:12:22,620 --> 00:12:27,340 who are those people of those 98 who was accused of perpetrating 215 00:12:27,340 --> 00:12:28,140 this fraud? 216 00:12:28,380 --> 00:12:30,780 Em Cassel: Yeah. So the kind of wild thing is, you know, 217 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:33,660 obviously there is Amy Bach, the sort of the CEO of Feeding Our 218 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:38,355 Future, the ringleader. She is a white woman, but all but eight, 219 00:12:38,355 --> 00:12:41,715 I think, is the total of the people who are accused in this 220 00:12:41,715 --> 00:12:45,955 fraud are Somali Americans, and the vast majority of them are 221 00:12:45,955 --> 00:12:47,155 American citizens. 222 00:12:47,795 --> 00:12:50,675 Hans Buetow: This is a big thing in the Twin Cities, especially 223 00:12:50,675 --> 00:12:55,320 because we are one of the largest populations of Somali 224 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,280 folks, most of them American citizens. There's big parts, 225 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,080 especially of Minneapolis, that are very Somali oriented to And 226 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:10,225 that so that's already a thing that there are certain members 227 00:13:10,225 --> 00:13:13,185 of the community and then especially of the wider 228 00:13:13,185 --> 00:13:16,305 community, especially of the administration who are already 229 00:13:16,305 --> 00:13:19,830 against African and East African people in the first place, much 230 00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:22,310 less people who have come here despite them being citizens or 231 00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:26,310 not. So when this starts to come out, who really gets the blame 232 00:13:26,630 --> 00:13:28,310 for all of this fraud? 233 00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:31,430 Em Cassel: I would say the blame kind of falls in two places. One 234 00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:34,945 is on Minnesota governor Tim Walls and his administration, 235 00:13:34,945 --> 00:13:39,025 like, basically, the the failure to do anything to stop the fraud 236 00:13:39,025 --> 00:13:42,705 and to just kind of let it proliferate, under under his 237 00:13:42,705 --> 00:13:45,425 watch and his administration's watch. But then, yeah, to your 238 00:13:45,425 --> 00:13:48,540 point, Hans, the other place that it falls is on the broader 239 00:13:48,540 --> 00:13:52,060 Somali community, you know, people who I think maybe already 240 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:56,060 have preexisting prejudices definitely use this as a way to 241 00:13:56,060 --> 00:13:59,100 say, look at this community, like, look at this community of 242 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:03,075 immigrants and and and how they are acting basically, which is 243 00:14:03,075 --> 00:14:07,955 just not I mean, it's it's still a very small fraction of the, as 244 00:14:07,955 --> 00:14:11,395 you mentioned, very large Somali American population here in the 245 00:14:11,395 --> 00:14:12,275 Twin Cities. 246 00:14:12,275 --> 00:14:15,530 Hans Buetow: Absolute. But it's such an easy thing, I think, to 247 00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:20,730 target now when you say, look all of this massive, we can call 248 00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:24,250 it massive fraud, and look at how disproportionate it was 249 00:14:24,250 --> 00:14:27,545 coming from this one particular community. You can imagine the 250 00:14:27,545 --> 00:14:31,865 therefore that start to emerge. And I think this moves us into 251 00:14:31,865 --> 00:14:35,225 our second moment that I want to talk about, which is jumping us 252 00:14:35,225 --> 00:14:39,545 ahead to Thanksgiving of this past year, which involves the 253 00:14:39,545 --> 00:14:43,670 escalation of rhetoric that leads to the deployment of ice 254 00:14:44,070 --> 00:14:50,390 in the Twin Cities. So I want to move us to 11/19/2025, just a 255 00:14:50,390 --> 00:14:51,350 month and a half ago. 256 00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:53,815 There was an article that was published, I'm not sure if 257 00:14:53,815 --> 00:14:59,895 you've read this article, it's a wild article. Woah. It's by this 258 00:14:59,895 --> 00:15:04,455 group called City Journal, which is not in Minnesota, it's not 259 00:15:04,455 --> 00:15:08,100 really affiliated, Independent Journalism, which I say that in 260 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:10,660 quote Marks, even though both of us are independent journalism. 261 00:15:10,660 --> 00:15:14,020 Em Cassel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not like those guys. We're 262 00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:14,900 not like we're not 263 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:17,700 Hans Buetow: because they go on, they claim in this article that 264 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:22,205 the Minnesota childcare program funds, so this is childcare now 265 00:15:22,205 --> 00:15:25,405 that we're moving into, the childcare program funds are 266 00:15:25,485 --> 00:15:30,605 being sent back to Somalia to Al Shabaab, which is the terrorist 267 00:15:30,605 --> 00:15:34,870 organization in Somalia, a lot of them responsible for the 268 00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:37,670 Somali civil war in the early nineties that led to the 269 00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:41,830 diaspora. So that they're taking government money, taxpayer 270 00:15:41,830 --> 00:15:45,605 money, and shoveling it back to terrorist organizations in 271 00:15:45,605 --> 00:15:50,485 Somalia. The problem is the source for this, who they quote 272 00:15:50,485 --> 00:15:53,045 in it, comes out afterwards and it's like, woah, woah, woah, 273 00:15:53,045 --> 00:15:55,445 they took me out of context. I didn't say that. So that is not 274 00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:56,005 true. 275 00:15:56,245 --> 00:15:58,725 Yep. That's not what's happening. 276 00:15:58,725 --> 00:15:59,925 Em Cassel: But it's kind of like too late. 277 00:16:00,220 --> 00:16:04,700 Hans Buetow: It's too late. The posts are made. The cat is out 278 00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:07,420 of the bag and I think that this is a theme we're going to see a 279 00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:12,220 lot coming from this point because Trump elevates this 280 00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:16,685 claim almost immediately on Truth Social, he says, quote, 281 00:16:16,685 --> 00:16:19,565 Minnesota under governor Walls is a hub of fraudulent money 282 00:16:19,565 --> 00:16:24,765 laundering activity, end quote, which again, there is fraud. 283 00:16:24,765 --> 00:16:28,370 Like, let's not lose sight of there is fraud. But this is 284 00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:30,930 saying that it's laundering when there's no evidence for that, 285 00:16:31,090 --> 00:16:34,370 but he takes a real world step and he cancels temporary 286 00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:38,450 protected status for Somali folks in Minnesota. 287 00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:39,810 Em Cassel: Yeah. Do you have a 288 00:16:39,810 --> 00:16:41,490 Hans Buetow: sense, Em, of what that meant around here? 289 00:16:41,685 --> 00:16:43,845 Em Cassel: There were only a couple 100 immigrants, I think, 290 00:16:43,845 --> 00:16:46,325 who were immediately affected by that. I think it's like that 291 00:16:46,405 --> 00:16:49,925 that's just like the first, like, the opening volley in his 292 00:16:50,005 --> 00:16:50,885 escalation. 293 00:16:50,965 --> 00:16:53,205 Hans Buetow: Yeah. That's interesting because most of the 294 00:16:53,205 --> 00:16:56,005 Somali folks in Minnesota are citizens. They're not. 295 00:16:56,005 --> 00:16:57,950 Em Cassel: They are. Exactly. So, yeah, it was just kind of 296 00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:00,350 like a here's what I'm gonna do first, and then I'm gonna 297 00:17:00,670 --> 00:17:03,790 Hans Buetow: Yeah. So then very shortly after that, on 298 00:17:03,790 --> 00:17:09,305 Thanksgiving, the day after an Afghan asylee shoots two 299 00:17:09,305 --> 00:17:12,265 National Guard soldiers near the White House, killing one of 300 00:17:12,265 --> 00:17:16,585 them. Trump's in an interview, and he responds to reporters by 301 00:17:16,585 --> 00:17:19,545 saying that there is nothing linking, that's in quotes, 302 00:17:19,545 --> 00:17:23,540 nothing linking the shooting that happened with Somalia, and 303 00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:28,660 then immediately goes on truth social and posts, quote, 304 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:31,540 hundreds of thousands of refugees from Somalia are 305 00:17:31,540 --> 00:17:34,820 completely taking over the once great state of Minnesota. 306 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:38,985 Somalian gangs are roving the streets looking for prey as our 307 00:17:38,985 --> 00:17:41,705 wonderful people stay locked in their apartments and houses 308 00:17:41,705 --> 00:17:46,745 hoping against hope that they will be left alone. Did you feel 309 00:17:46,745 --> 00:17:47,465 that way, M? 310 00:17:51,945 --> 00:17:55,350 You hoping against hope clutching a picture of him. Oh, 311 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:56,790 please come help us. 312 00:17:57,190 --> 00:18:00,790 Em Cassel: Oh god. This is the most bizarre thing. Like, it 313 00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:04,310 truly is just like I mean, the way this administration will 314 00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:07,535 just say stuff. Right? Like, way that they will just say say 315 00:18:07,535 --> 00:18:10,015 anything in the way that Trump specifically will just, like, 316 00:18:10,015 --> 00:18:13,615 make something up, like, just to, like, state the obvious, 317 00:18:13,615 --> 00:18:16,575 there are not Somali gangs roving No. 318 00:18:16,575 --> 00:18:20,750 The streets looking for, quote, prey. Yeah. That has, like, 319 00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:23,950 never happened in my experience. I mean, it's like, again, it's 320 00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:26,590 not really funny, but, like, all you can do is laugh. Like, it is 321 00:18:26,590 --> 00:18:28,910 such an out outlandish claim. 322 00:18:28,910 --> 00:18:32,510 Like, truly just, like, beyond the pale in terms of just, like, 323 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:38,805 making up a a really, really, really crazy, like, set of 324 00:18:38,805 --> 00:18:40,645 facts, alternative facts. 325 00:18:41,205 --> 00:18:42,965 Hans Buetow: And this is really the indication that we get that 326 00:18:42,965 --> 00:18:48,325 he's seizing on Somalia and Somali Minnesotans as a way to 327 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,280 attack because then he immediately pivots, uses a super 328 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,040 gross epithet about governor Waltz saying that he and the 329 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,680 democrats are doing nothing. And then it's later that weekend 330 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,520 that the administration announces operation metro surge. 331 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,485 So what is Operation Metro Surge? 332 00:19:05,725 --> 00:19:10,205 Em Cassel: Operation Metro Surge is mirrors the previous actions 333 00:19:10,205 --> 00:19:13,725 in Portland or what we saw in Chicago, where the Trump 334 00:19:13,725 --> 00:19:17,450 administration deploys just a bunch of Department of Homeland 335 00:19:17,450 --> 00:19:21,290 Security agents to the Twin Cities, kind of using the Somali 336 00:19:21,290 --> 00:19:24,890 community, right, as a scapegoat of, like, we're gonna I mean, 337 00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:27,610 they basically say, like, this is gonna stop fraud somehow. 338 00:19:27,610 --> 00:19:30,730 Like, they this is gonna stop fraud, and also, we're gonna go 339 00:19:30,730 --> 00:19:34,385 after these these criminals who are running wild in the streets, 340 00:19:34,385 --> 00:19:37,745 again, in this, like, totally alternate universe that no one 341 00:19:37,745 --> 00:19:41,185 is living in where there's, like, just just rampant crime. 342 00:19:42,145 --> 00:19:45,900 So I think initially, the idea was like, we're going to send 343 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,220 all these agents and we're going to round up the bad guys. Think 344 00:19:48,220 --> 00:19:51,260 the worst of the worst or whatever is the language that 345 00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:54,220 the administration uses. Like, we're going to come get the 346 00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:56,460 baddies from the Twin Cities. 347 00:19:57,295 --> 00:19:59,535 Hans Buetow: Which they're using the fraud stuff in that case to 348 00:19:59,535 --> 00:20:02,175 be like, look at how many of these bad people. Look what 349 00:20:02,175 --> 00:20:04,495 they're doing. Look at the scale of things that they're doing, 350 00:20:04,575 --> 00:20:07,135 and look at how many of them there are. The the white folks 351 00:20:07,135 --> 00:20:10,015 in Minnesota aren't doing this fraud. It's all like, we gotta 352 00:20:10,015 --> 00:20:13,900 go in there because the Democrats aren't doing anything. 353 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:18,460 Now you did some reporting on the surge in what's happening. 354 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:20,700 So talk us through a little bit because did you go to Carmel 355 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:21,260 Mall? 356 00:20:21,260 --> 00:20:24,060 Em Cassel: I didn't report from Carmel Mall. The Minnesota 357 00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:28,140 reformer had a great story where basically they were like, it's 358 00:20:28,295 --> 00:20:30,935 empty here. Carmel Mall, for those who don't know, is kind of 359 00:20:30,935 --> 00:20:34,055 like a Somali hub here in the Twin Cities. It's on Lake 360 00:20:34,055 --> 00:20:37,335 Street. It's a big market and there are shops and there are 361 00:20:37,335 --> 00:20:38,215 restaurants. 362 00:20:38,935 --> 00:20:43,620 And within a few days really of the surge starting of this 363 00:20:43,620 --> 00:20:47,860 Operation Metro surge, like, the streets were kind of empty. And 364 00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:50,020 you could see that playing out on other businesses on Lake 365 00:20:50,020 --> 00:20:52,340 Street, which is a huge immigrant corridor here. There's 366 00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:54,820 a lot of Mexican owned businesses, a lot of businesses 367 00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:59,635 owned by people of color in general, and they were pretty 368 00:20:59,635 --> 00:21:05,235 quickly struggling. Yeah. Struggling to get their workers 369 00:21:05,235 --> 00:21:08,115 here safely to have the people who would generally patronize 370 00:21:08,115 --> 00:21:09,475 those businesses feeling safe. 371 00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:13,350 Lake Street in general really kind of cleared out and so did 372 00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:15,670 other immigrant hubs in the Twin Cities area. 373 00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:18,550 Hans Buetow: Mhmm. There were efforts to to get people to shop 374 00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:21,750 at immigrant shops because their regular clientele couldn't go 375 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:25,865 in, like spend the hubs, spend your money going to support some 376 00:21:25,865 --> 00:21:28,025 of these places with who haven't seen customers in days 377 00:21:28,025 --> 00:21:30,505 sometimes. Everybody's running scared. 378 00:21:30,505 --> 00:21:32,665 Em Cassel: Yeah. Yeah. People are locking their doors. I mean, 379 00:21:32,665 --> 00:21:34,665 there are restaurants that you'll go to on Lake Street now 380 00:21:34,665 --> 00:21:37,145 and the door will be locked. You'll have to knock to get in. 381 00:21:37,145 --> 00:21:39,830 They're still technically open, but they're they're trying to 382 00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:42,550 protect themselves and their their coworkers and their loved 383 00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:44,230 ones. For most of December, 384 00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:47,510 Hans Buetow: it felt like it wasn't it sucked and it was 385 00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:52,390 scary, but it wasn't any more remarkable than in other big 386 00:21:51,635 --> 00:21:55,315 blue cities where this was happening. Am I right on that? 387 00:21:55,315 --> 00:21:55,795 Yeah. I think 388 00:21:55,795 --> 00:21:58,115 Em Cassel: that's fair to say. I think if anything, you know, you 389 00:21:58,115 --> 00:22:01,075 could kind of look around and be like, well, it's actually not as 390 00:22:01,075 --> 00:22:04,510 bad, again, through December as it has been in Chicago and other 391 00:22:04,510 --> 00:22:07,710 cities. Not seeing Just these numbers wise. Simply in a 392 00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:12,590 numbers game, you know, it's bad and it's scary. But it was, you 393 00:22:12,590 --> 00:22:16,110 know, relatively small in scale to what we've seen here at the 394 00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:20,405 start of 2026, which is, I don't have to tell you, really bad. 395 00:22:20,405 --> 00:22:22,005 Really bad. Really bad. Yeah. 396 00:22:22,005 --> 00:22:25,685 Hans Buetow: So what was the local reaction that you felt 397 00:22:25,685 --> 00:22:28,405 happened when Operation Metro Search started? 398 00:22:28,645 --> 00:22:31,605 Em Cassel: It's been like actually very impressive to see 399 00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:34,730 the local reaction and see how the community has banded 400 00:22:34,730 --> 00:22:38,250 together to try to protect the the vulnerable members of the 401 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:42,010 community. People signing up to deliver groceries to people who 402 00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:43,210 don't feel safe leaving their homes. 403 00:22:43,530 --> 00:22:44,250 Hans Buetow: Their homes. That's right. 404 00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:47,450 Em Cassel: That's right. Or or escorting children from their 405 00:22:46,845 --> 00:22:50,605 bus stop to their house or from the bus into their schools. 406 00:22:50,765 --> 00:22:52,845 Hans Buetow: Going like putting on a bib and going to stand in 407 00:22:52,845 --> 00:22:55,645 front of a mosque. Yep. Like, know, just to be a presence. 408 00:22:55,645 --> 00:22:57,885 Em Cassel: Yeah. There has really been a tremendous 409 00:22:57,885 --> 00:23:02,130 outpouring of support, would say. And I I think going back 410 00:23:02,130 --> 00:23:06,450 even further, like, this almost ties into 2020 and in earlier 411 00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:10,290 where the Twin Cities kind of rallied together in the wake of 412 00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:12,610 George Floyd's murder. And, like, there are sort of these 413 00:23:12,610 --> 00:23:15,490 networks that already exist in the Twin Cities where people 414 00:23:16,075 --> 00:23:22,155 have have done this before, unfortunately. And and so a lot 415 00:23:22,155 --> 00:23:25,995 of those people have really stepped up to try to protect 416 00:23:25,995 --> 00:23:26,555 their neighbors. 417 00:23:26,555 --> 00:23:28,315 So of course, there's only so much you can do. 418 00:23:28,790 --> 00:23:30,950 Hans Buetow: Right. Because, you know, we have we have armed 419 00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:32,470 forces patrolling 420 00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:32,870 Em Cassel: Yeah. The 421 00:23:33,910 --> 00:23:37,430 Hans Buetow: And this reaction of at least a lot of folks 422 00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:41,270 around here was markedly different from the federal 423 00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:43,830 reaction and the reaction of the administration. So how did they 424 00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:44,390 talk about it? 425 00:23:45,805 --> 00:23:51,165 Em Cassel: I guess you could say they posted through it. Like 426 00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:56,205 like, truly truly, like, posting through it. Like, early 427 00:23:56,605 --> 00:24:02,040 December, you have that really bizarre video where Trump is 428 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:05,880 hurling horrific insults at Somali just like blatant racism 429 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,800 at Somali people calling them garbage. He's at a cabinet 430 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,000 meeting and, like, JD Vance is, like, banging on the table. You 431 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,965 hear that weird audio recording where he's banging his fists on 432 00:24:15,965 --> 00:24:16,605 the table. 433 00:24:17,245 --> 00:24:19,805 He, of course, targets Ilhan Omar. 434 00:24:19,805 --> 00:24:20,765 Hans Buetow: Who is Somali? 435 00:24:20,765 --> 00:24:25,645 Em Cassel: Who is Somali. Yes. Our representative. And I am not 436 00:24:25,645 --> 00:24:28,525 personally on Truth Social, but you would see, you know, people 437 00:24:28,525 --> 00:24:31,310 sharing screenshots of these posts where it's just like, 438 00:24:31,310 --> 00:24:33,630 again, it feels like an alternate reality from the one 439 00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:37,070 that we all live in where our Somali neighbors are wonderful. 440 00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:41,875 It feels insane to even have to say it, but like, it's just such 441 00:24:41,875 --> 00:24:46,195 a strange thing to watch an entire community be smeared like 442 00:24:46,195 --> 00:24:48,275 this by the president of The United States. 443 00:24:48,275 --> 00:24:48,675 Like 444 00:24:48,995 --> 00:24:51,315 Hans Buetow: And then when he does it, like, it wasn't just it 445 00:24:51,315 --> 00:24:56,195 was Vance, it was Cash Patel, it was the podcaster leader of the 446 00:24:56,195 --> 00:25:01,220 FBI, it was Kristi Noem, like everybody would would echo in 447 00:25:01,220 --> 00:25:05,940 posts a similar thing as they ramped up and escalated. 448 00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:09,700 Em Cassel: Yeah. You'd sort of see the groundwork being laid 449 00:25:10,180 --> 00:25:14,485 for, like, increased hatred, like, on Twitter, like, in 450 00:25:14,485 --> 00:25:17,445 tweets. Like Yeah. Like, I don't know how often Kirsty Noem was 451 00:25:17,445 --> 00:25:20,965 posting about Somali people before this December, but all of 452 00:25:20,965 --> 00:25:24,085 a sudden All of a sudden. She has a lot to say about them. 453 00:25:24,245 --> 00:25:27,490 Hans Buetow: Yeah. And so this pattern emerges of something 454 00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:31,010 being posted, officials immediately reacting in posts to 455 00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:36,610 each other, and then this severe disproportionate policy or real 456 00:25:36,610 --> 00:25:40,435 world action or something emerges or gets generated from 457 00:25:40,435 --> 00:25:45,475 that flurry of posts. So let's take a quick break, and when we 458 00:25:45,475 --> 00:25:49,795 come back I want to talk about how this pattern escalates into 459 00:25:49,795 --> 00:26:07,855 the death of Renee Goode earlier this week. So our final moment 460 00:26:07,855 --> 00:26:12,895 that we're gonna examine here is the Internet of it all. And this 461 00:26:12,975 --> 00:26:14,495 happens in late December. 462 00:26:14,495 --> 00:26:18,975 So we're almost a month at this point into Operation Metro 463 00:26:18,975 --> 00:26:23,610 Surge, and the day after Christmas, a video drops from a 464 00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:29,370 23 year old, very MAGA friendly influencer sort named Nick 465 00:26:29,370 --> 00:26:33,450 Shirley. Nick Shirley releases this forty three minute video 466 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:38,545 where he comes to Minnesota. They go to what he says is 11 467 00:26:38,545 --> 00:26:43,825 different Somali childcare centers, and he just starts 468 00:26:43,825 --> 00:26:47,505 demanding whoever opens the door show him the kids. Hello. We'd 469 00:26:47,505 --> 00:26:49,300 like to ask where the money's going. 470 00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:52,820 What do you guys think about the fraud that's taking place here 471 00:26:52,820 --> 00:26:53,540 in Minnesota? 472 00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:55,700 Em Cassel: Sorry. I don't think anybody is enabling that to 473 00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:55,940 happen. 474 00:26:56,020 --> 00:26:58,340 Hans Buetow: Hold governor Walls accountable for this. What was 475 00:26:58,340 --> 00:27:02,655 this money spent on? 1,260,000.00. What was that 476 00:27:02,655 --> 00:27:03,055 money 477 00:27:03,055 --> 00:27:04,735 Em Cassel: spent on? If there aren't any kids. 478 00:27:04,735 --> 00:27:06,495 Hans Buetow: Answer the question. Are there children? 479 00:27:06,495 --> 00:27:10,655 There's no children inside this building. I'm not sure why they 480 00:27:10,655 --> 00:27:13,935 didn't show him the kids when no random young person just starts 481 00:27:13,935 --> 00:27:17,090 aggressively demanding that, you bring the kids out to me or let 482 00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:21,330 me go in and see the kids. But he isn't shown any children in 483 00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:24,370 these 11, and so then he turns around in the video and claims 484 00:27:24,370 --> 00:27:29,570 this as evidence of a 110,000,000 more dollars in 485 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:32,585 widespread fraud by the Somali community. 486 00:27:32,585 --> 00:27:34,905 Did you watch this video by Nick Shirley? 487 00:27:34,905 --> 00:27:38,505 Em Cassel: I saw clips and I was kind of, like, again, talking 488 00:27:38,505 --> 00:27:42,345 about, like, brazenness. Like, this guy really, really just 489 00:27:42,345 --> 00:27:43,065 goes for it. 490 00:27:43,650 --> 00:27:46,130 Hans Buetow: Which like a forty three minute YouTube video of a 491 00:27:46,130 --> 00:27:50,290 guy doing kind of stunt journalism without research. 492 00:27:50,290 --> 00:27:53,730 Like, okay. Yeah. This sort of stuff happens. Like, it's not 493 00:27:53,810 --> 00:27:56,425 weird that you wouldn't have seen it, but there are some 494 00:27:56,425 --> 00:28:03,385 people who definitely saw it and had this wildly outsized huge 495 00:28:03,385 --> 00:28:04,345 reaction to it. 496 00:28:04,345 --> 00:28:07,385 So almost immediately, the vice president of The United States 497 00:28:07,385 --> 00:28:11,790 Of America, JD Vance, emphatically reposted on X 498 00:28:11,790 --> 00:28:14,350 saying this is some great better journalism than any of the 499 00:28:14,350 --> 00:28:17,550 people who want a Pulitzer this year. Elon Musk engages with it. 500 00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:22,030 Kash Patel, again, from the FBI. Kristi Noem, head of DHS, they 501 00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:25,625 all post. Kristi Noem says, oh, we're we're because of this, 502 00:28:25,625 --> 00:28:28,025 we're gonna start investigating this immediately. 503 00:28:28,505 --> 00:28:32,105 In a statement from the White House, Abigail Jackson, who's a 504 00:28:32,105 --> 00:28:35,870 spokeswoman for it, said that, and this is a quote, quote, the 505 00:28:35,870 --> 00:28:38,510 country should be deeply appreciative to Shirley for 506 00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:41,550 shining a light on this issue. The legacy media should take 507 00:28:41,550 --> 00:28:42,990 notes, end quote. 508 00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:44,990 Em Cassel: Yeah. I think what we need is actually for Star 509 00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:48,270 Tribune reporters to just start banging on day care centers. 510 00:28:48,270 --> 00:28:53,285 Hans Buetow: Just demanding. Like it's everybody in the 511 00:28:53,285 --> 00:28:56,885 cabinet seems to just immediately glom onto this, make 512 00:28:56,885 --> 00:29:00,965 their own series of posts about it. Within the week, the video 513 00:29:00,965 --> 00:29:04,165 has a 131,000,000 views on X, which who knows what that means. 514 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,760 2,500,000 views on YouTube. But it's also got Trump's attention 515 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,480 because Trump then does this thing after this flurry of posts 516 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,680 from everybody in the cabinet. 517 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:19,925 He orders the health department to freeze $185,000,000 in child 518 00:29:19,925 --> 00:29:22,885 care payments to the state of Minnesota day care centers 519 00:29:22,965 --> 00:29:27,365 directly in response to this video, which is the pattern that 520 00:29:27,365 --> 00:29:28,245 we've been outlining. 521 00:29:28,245 --> 00:29:33,180 Em Cassel: You manufacture a scenario and you post about it a 522 00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:34,620 lot, which makes it true. 523 00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:36,700 Hans Buetow: Yep. And then the posting begets posting. 524 00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:40,140 Em Cassel: Yep. There's a whole like weird web ecosystem of 525 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:43,660 posts and they all relate to each other. Yep. And then you 526 00:29:43,660 --> 00:29:47,395 use that web of posts to say like, this is fact now, and now 527 00:29:47,395 --> 00:29:51,315 we are going to, for example, withhold these funds as a 528 00:29:51,315 --> 00:29:55,075 reaction to the posts that we ourselves made. 529 00:29:55,555 --> 00:29:58,115 Hans Buetow: It's early January when the Minnesota Department of 530 00:29:58,115 --> 00:30:01,310 Children, Youth, and Families did compliance checks in all of 531 00:30:01,310 --> 00:30:05,790 those places on nine of the 11 from the Shirley video and they 532 00:30:05,790 --> 00:30:09,070 concluded definitively that no, they're operating exactly as 533 00:30:09,070 --> 00:30:14,605 expected. There's no issue here. But that's like, it's what, two 534 00:30:14,605 --> 00:30:16,125 weeks after? Well, right. 535 00:30:16,125 --> 00:30:19,165 Em Cassel: It's too late. It's almost like the the outrage has 536 00:30:19,165 --> 00:30:23,405 been created. We have our followers now, the people who 537 00:30:23,405 --> 00:30:27,510 are MAGA, Jason, like they all believe what we have said. And 538 00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:29,190 so actually, it kind of doesn't matter. 539 00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:30,630 Hans Buetow: There's It something really 540 00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:32,790 Em Cassel: doesn't. They're not gonna post again. Like, you're 541 00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:36,070 not gonna get a sign off from JD Vance that's like, oh, good. The 542 00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:38,390 Department of Children, Youth and Families said actually these 543 00:30:38,390 --> 00:30:39,670 daycare centers are great. 544 00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:42,070 Hans Buetow: You know, guys, I'm gonna delete those old posts. 545 00:30:42,385 --> 00:30:44,465 I'm gonna issue a correction. 546 00:30:44,625 --> 00:30:46,865 Em Cassel: Like, no, that's not gonna fucking happen. So 547 00:30:48,705 --> 00:30:54,305 Hans Buetow: And instead, in the meantime, they used that as a 548 00:30:54,305 --> 00:30:58,110 catapult, as a jumping off point, as a springboard to 549 00:30:58,110 --> 00:31:01,070 launch, I don't even know if it's got a name, but the latest 550 00:31:01,070 --> 00:31:05,950 assault, sending the largest force of DHS personnel into 551 00:31:05,950 --> 00:31:08,910 Minnesota that I think has ever been assembled. I think those 552 00:31:08,910 --> 00:31:14,475 are the latest. 2,000 DHS agents showed up in Minnesota in that 553 00:31:14,475 --> 00:31:17,115 gap before they came in. Were like, no, no, this video isn't 554 00:31:17,115 --> 00:31:18,795 accurate. This is not what's happening. 555 00:31:18,795 --> 00:31:20,875 They came there like there's widespread fraud. Again, this 556 00:31:20,875 --> 00:31:23,515 fraud. Let's go. We gotta go do something because the Democrats 557 00:31:23,515 --> 00:31:28,370 aren't doing anything. So then 2,000 DHS agents show up, And, 558 00:31:28,370 --> 00:31:30,610 of course, end this week. 559 00:31:30,610 --> 00:31:35,010 Em Cassel: Yeah. I mean, it's been hell out there. December 560 00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:37,570 pales in comparison. It feels like they're the city is 561 00:31:37,570 --> 00:31:41,810 crawling with federal agents, ICE agents, DHS agents, border 562 00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:43,365 patrol agents. Yep. 563 00:31:43,365 --> 00:31:47,445 They are kidnapping people, leaving school. They are 564 00:31:47,445 --> 00:31:52,325 flooding into local businesses. They are tackling workers at 565 00:31:52,325 --> 00:31:56,500 Target. I mean, it's just like a really you definitely get the 566 00:31:56,500 --> 00:31:58,660 sense that, like, maybe what they wanted the first time 567 00:31:58,660 --> 00:32:01,860 around was a shock and awe that they didn't get. And now there 568 00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:05,060 are these 2,000 additional agents and they are they are 569 00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:06,340 doing the shock and awe. 570 00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:10,685 They are getting the visuals that they want of grown men 571 00:32:10,685 --> 00:32:17,245 tackling people to the ground and arresting bystanders and 572 00:32:17,245 --> 00:32:20,125 arresting legal observers, detaining people. 573 00:32:20,365 --> 00:32:23,490 Hans Buetow: And as of Wednesday, killing somebody who 574 00:32:23,490 --> 00:32:27,570 was at one of the sites where they were without warrants, 575 00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:30,610 without a reason to be there, without anything, as JD Venn 576 00:32:30,610 --> 00:32:33,570 says, just going door to door, which is fundamentally 577 00:32:33,570 --> 00:32:36,050 unconstitutional. You need a warrant to go door. You don't 578 00:32:36,050 --> 00:32:39,755 just go door to door looking for crimes. It's awful. It's been an 579 00:32:39,755 --> 00:32:46,155 awful few days since Renee Goode has been killed by an ICE agent 580 00:32:46,395 --> 00:32:48,075 in her car on Wednesday. 581 00:32:48,795 --> 00:32:50,635 We're not going to get too deep into that because I think that 582 00:32:50,635 --> 00:32:52,635 part has been pretty well covered and folks should look it 583 00:32:52,635 --> 00:32:55,530 up because it's heartbreaking and devastating. But I want to 584 00:32:55,530 --> 00:32:59,850 focus in on another thing that happened earlier this week when 585 00:32:59,850 --> 00:33:03,210 some really interesting writing came out from some really 586 00:33:03,210 --> 00:33:06,330 interesting internet thinkers. So earlier this week Charlie 587 00:33:06,330 --> 00:33:10,035 Warzel in the Atlantic, Don Moynihan and Cooper Lund, who 588 00:33:10,035 --> 00:33:13,715 each have their own blogs, and Ryan Broderick in garbage day, 589 00:33:14,035 --> 00:33:16,915 all of them thinkers about the internet independently of each 590 00:33:16,915 --> 00:33:22,850 other came to and simultaneously came to roughly the same theory 591 00:33:22,850 --> 00:33:27,650 and conclusion. That is that the people in the highest leadership 592 00:33:27,650 --> 00:33:33,890 positions in government think about their primary job as 593 00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:38,995 creating content. So power, as it exists now in that group, has 594 00:33:38,995 --> 00:33:42,435 changed to be centered around and wielded by people who get 595 00:33:42,435 --> 00:33:43,875 attention online. 596 00:33:44,355 --> 00:33:47,795 So for a portion of the political ruling class right 597 00:33:47,795 --> 00:33:51,040 now, it's the only thing they literally know how to do or 598 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,480 respect. I mean, we've got these podcasters. The head of the DOD 599 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,000 is a news presenter. That's his qualification. It's how they got 600 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,640 their jobs. 601 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,745 It's how their successors are gonna get their jobs. Creating 602 00:34:02,745 --> 00:34:07,865 content is the currency of power that's happening right now. And 603 00:34:07,865 --> 00:34:10,665 all four of these writers identified this in reaction to 604 00:34:10,665 --> 00:34:14,345 Venezuela and the invasion that we did of them watching the 605 00:34:14,345 --> 00:34:19,600 Twitter reaction in the quote unquote situation room at Mar A 606 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,680 Lago. But I think this applies to everything that's been 607 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,840 happening in Minnesota right now. Don Moynihan, one of these 608 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,880 thinkers on his blog, and we'll link to all of these in the show 609 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,525 notes, used the term click tatorship to define this. 610 00:34:36,485 --> 00:34:41,125 He said that this behavior, that this thing leads to really big 611 00:34:41,125 --> 00:34:45,285 changes in behavior. He outlines that it incentivizes conflict 612 00:34:45,285 --> 00:34:49,120 between professional and online identities, which also leads to 613 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,880 degrading professional norms and work practices. Recruiting 614 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,560 others high on the meme supply to working government, you can 615 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,520 see a way where Shirley, who posted this video, is job 616 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,295 interviewing by posting this. Critically, think Don Moynihan 617 00:35:06,295 --> 00:35:10,215 says that it alters decision making to be responsive to 618 00:35:10,215 --> 00:35:14,935 social media. Charlie Warzel, one of the other writers, talks 619 00:35:14,935 --> 00:35:17,255 about it in this way that I think is helpful, which is as a 620 00:35:17,255 --> 00:35:18,695 culture of reaction videos. 621 00:35:19,310 --> 00:35:23,230 So the memes and the reactions that happen to any piece of news 622 00:35:23,230 --> 00:35:28,750 event happen now simultaneously with the news event. There is no 623 00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:32,665 before and after anymore. So when respond to something, 624 00:35:32,665 --> 00:35:35,545 you're not just responding to facts, you're not just 625 00:35:35,545 --> 00:35:39,065 responding to news, you're responding to memes, in memes, 626 00:35:39,065 --> 00:35:43,945 with memes, about memes. It's already too far down that line. 627 00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:49,510 And this content mix of content fueling content, it creates 628 00:35:49,510 --> 00:35:53,270 opportunities for itself, which is in itself a way to kind of 629 00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:56,070 distance the audience from taking any sort of direct action 630 00:35:56,070 --> 00:35:57,270 because it abstracts things. 631 00:35:57,270 --> 00:36:00,415 So Charla Warzel says, quote, this process is nihilistic, and 632 00:36:00,415 --> 00:36:04,015 it has a dehumanizing effect. Stories about people or 633 00:36:04,015 --> 00:36:07,775 countries in conflict become abstract, buried under a pile of 634 00:36:07,775 --> 00:36:11,535 memes and recursive references that exist for little more than 635 00:36:11,535 --> 00:36:16,620 scroll by entertainment. So I read all of this and I was like, 636 00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:20,060 wait a second, and then started mapping it against everything 637 00:36:20,060 --> 00:36:22,780 that we've just talked about. All the fraud and all the 638 00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:25,420 accusations of fraud and all the realities of fraud, and then 639 00:36:25,420 --> 00:36:29,020 what the fraud then means and how the fraud led to this 640 00:36:29,315 --> 00:36:32,755 invasion from ICE. And I'm just wondering, like, when you hear 641 00:36:32,755 --> 00:36:37,075 all of this now, how does a clicktatorship map onto that for 642 00:36:37,075 --> 00:36:37,635 you? 643 00:36:38,835 --> 00:36:42,680 Em Cassel: Well, it does feel like the nothing happens anymore 644 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,280 without the sort of right wing blogger poster ecosystem, like, 645 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,960 descending on that either physically or or online only. 646 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,345 But we're seeing it this week in Minnesota, like, are right wing 647 00:36:56,345 --> 00:37:00,585 content creators who have sort of flown into town for this 648 00:37:00,585 --> 00:37:05,465 surge, for this, you know, increased number of troops that 649 00:37:05,465 --> 00:37:08,265 are here. Ryan Broderick, who's very excellent, Newsletter 650 00:37:08,265 --> 00:37:10,985 Garbage Day, you mentioned, like, is also in town right now. 651 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,080 And he has a video from the Whipple Building this morning, 652 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,200 which is the Federal building where sort of the ICE operations 653 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:17,840 are, like, centered 654 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,720 Hans Buetow: and where they're the corridors. 655 00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:21,600 Em Cassel: Yeah. Where they're taking people who are detained 656 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,240 and everything else. 657 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:23,600 Hans Buetow: And they're doing daily protests, morning 658 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,000 protests. 659 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,275 Em Cassel: Yes. Yes. So people people have been protesting 660 00:37:26,275 --> 00:37:29,315 outside the Whipple Building most mornings and and all day 661 00:37:29,315 --> 00:37:34,835 long. Ryan has a a video of an ICE agent sort of fist bumping 662 00:37:34,835 --> 00:37:40,200 with a right wing pro Trump content creator. And then, like, 663 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,360 that content creator is allowed to cross the line that the ICE 664 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,640 agents have formed while everyone else protesting or even 665 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:48,760 covering the event. 666 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,305 Like, other journalists are pushed back. So you can really 667 00:37:52,305 --> 00:37:55,825 see the way that these right wing creator like, you can 668 00:37:55,825 --> 00:37:58,545 visually see with your eyes the way that these right wing 669 00:37:58,545 --> 00:38:01,185 creators have been given this sort of privileged place in the 670 00:38:01,185 --> 00:38:04,705 administration while everyone else is kind of left on the 671 00:38:04,705 --> 00:38:10,030 outside. It's like really worrying. It's really worrying. 672 00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:12,430 Hans Buetow: I know. I think that it is really worrying, and 673 00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:15,230 it it's I think it's a little clarifying to have this theory 674 00:38:15,230 --> 00:38:18,190 kind of coalesce in the minds of a few different people who are 675 00:38:18,190 --> 00:38:20,535 really watching closely. And as soon as I read it, I was like, 676 00:38:20,535 --> 00:38:23,335 of course, that's what's happening. That makes it's one 677 00:38:23,335 --> 00:38:24,775 of those things that you're like, why didn't we see this 678 00:38:24,775 --> 00:38:26,935 before? I think we did see this before. 679 00:38:26,935 --> 00:38:29,975 We saw how much they're addicted to Twitter and addiction is a 680 00:38:29,975 --> 00:38:34,750 big part of this. We saw how much they are addicted to the 681 00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:37,550 audience that they perceive, and this is a thing we come back to 682 00:38:37,550 --> 00:38:40,030 in the show a lot, especially in our editorial meetings, is the 683 00:38:40,510 --> 00:38:43,870 imaginary internet points that you think that you get from any 684 00:38:43,870 --> 00:38:47,565 action that you take online. They have created an ecosystem 685 00:38:47,565 --> 00:38:51,165 where those imaginary internet points actually have a orange 686 00:38:51,165 --> 00:38:59,085 face and actually like a bad haircut. This is an ecosystem 687 00:38:59,325 --> 00:39:06,520 that feels scary because it's so untethered from the realities 688 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,240 that it creates, because that's what we're seeing. This is the 689 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,240 pattern we're seeing over and over again, is it creates these 690 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:15,665 real actions where people die, their lives are ruined, where 691 00:39:15,665 --> 00:39:18,145 people are deported, where people are harassed, where who 692 00:39:18,145 --> 00:39:19,585 knows what's happening. 693 00:39:19,665 --> 00:39:22,465 People are losing funding, people are not able to feed 694 00:39:22,465 --> 00:39:26,385 themselves. That's real, but that's not considered or 695 00:39:26,385 --> 00:39:30,170 important in this. And it feels like sometimes posts are the 696 00:39:30,170 --> 00:39:34,730 only thing that matters. Like this group's only way to engage 697 00:39:34,730 --> 00:39:38,890 with the world is a post and using everything as an 698 00:39:38,890 --> 00:39:42,595 opportunity to generate more content. The ice surge as a 699 00:39:42,595 --> 00:39:46,915 content generating mechanism is such a depressing thing to say. 700 00:39:47,075 --> 00:39:47,795 Em Cassel: I know. 701 00:39:48,195 --> 00:39:52,675 Hans Buetow: And yet And yet here we are mourning Renee Goode 702 00:39:52,675 --> 00:39:56,610 and trying to protest and trying to like have a voice in it. And 703 00:39:56,610 --> 00:40:01,650 it feels like that's a shocking thing to have to reconcile. 704 00:40:01,970 --> 00:40:05,250 Em Cassel: And to your point about Renee Goode, I mean, the 705 00:40:05,570 --> 00:40:09,045 folks in the presidential administration were were posting 706 00:40:09,045 --> 00:40:14,005 about her death before we had basically any information. You 707 00:40:14,005 --> 00:40:17,525 know, like, I think, like, the the sort of post first ask 708 00:40:17,525 --> 00:40:21,285 questions later of it all is really, really damaging. 709 00:40:21,285 --> 00:40:21,765 Hans Buetow: Like Yeah. 710 00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:24,140 Em Cassel: Calling her, you know, whatever they call her a 711 00:40:24,140 --> 00:40:26,460 professional agitator or the language they use, domestic 712 00:40:26,460 --> 00:40:31,180 terrorist, When, I like, we had basically no information about 713 00:40:31,180 --> 00:40:34,460 who this woman was, why she was there. We have a lot greater 714 00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:37,635 clarity now, but she had only been dead for a few hours when 715 00:40:37,795 --> 00:40:40,435 Yeah. When people in the administration were posting 716 00:40:40,435 --> 00:40:43,795 about her as a person and her character and what she was doing 717 00:40:43,795 --> 00:40:48,115 there and everything else. Just creating the narrative that, you 718 00:40:48,115 --> 00:40:51,480 know, that we would have to then go on to debunk. It, like, puts 719 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,520 you as someone who wants to tell the truth on your back foot 720 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,720 because now you're in a position of having to react to the lies 721 00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,440 that have already started to proliferate throughout these 722 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:01,640 online spaces. 723 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,200 Hans Buetow: That's right. 724 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:03,480 Em Cassel: It's it's really damaging. 725 00:41:04,535 --> 00:41:07,815 Hans Buetow: I've been thinking a lot about the raid that 726 00:41:07,815 --> 00:41:15,415 happened at Roosevelt High School on Wednesday. So just 727 00:41:15,415 --> 00:41:21,810 literally hours after the killing of Renee Goode, ICE 728 00:41:21,810 --> 00:41:26,210 agents stormed the grounds of Roosevelt High School, which is 729 00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:31,855 fairly nearby to that, and started tackling people. They 730 00:41:31,855 --> 00:41:35,615 punched out windows, they were shooting chemical weapons at 731 00:41:35,615 --> 00:41:39,295 people, they arrested two faculty members. And there's 732 00:41:39,295 --> 00:41:42,095 these videos that these students, these high schoolers 733 00:41:42,095 --> 00:41:47,270 are taking of this where they're just screaming and like it's 734 00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:51,670 just whistles everywhere. It's just this chaotic horrible thing 735 00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:55,510 and you're watching them body slam students into the ground on 736 00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:59,635 school property, which has been outlawed by the city of 737 00:41:59,635 --> 00:42:01,315 Minneapolis and the city of Saint Paul. 738 00:42:01,315 --> 00:42:05,235 They are not allowed to legally do that sort of thing. And it's 739 00:42:06,675 --> 00:42:09,475 shocking in the way that you would expect a post like that. 740 00:42:09,475 --> 00:42:12,595 Like it feels like it's made for the gram in a way, like it's 741 00:42:12,595 --> 00:42:17,530 made to be posted about. And the casualness of it being mere 742 00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:24,010 hours after they shot and killed Renee Goode is really sticking 743 00:42:24,010 --> 00:42:28,490 with me as being an indication of like, okay, yep, we got that 744 00:42:28,490 --> 00:42:32,155 one. Immediately, what's our next viral clip gonna be? 745 00:42:32,155 --> 00:42:33,515 Let's tackle some kids. 746 00:42:34,155 --> 00:42:39,835 Em Cassel: Yeah. It does make you wonder like, is there a 747 00:42:39,835 --> 00:42:44,840 bottom? Is there a depth that we can yet reach? Like, I have 748 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,120 thought about those those videos and those photos from Roosevelt 749 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,160 so much over the last few days because it really is like, you 750 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:58,225 know, if I if my agency had killed a person in the street, 751 00:42:58,225 --> 00:43:02,785 I'd pack it up and call it a day. And I guess that's just, 752 00:43:02,865 --> 00:43:04,865 you know, they just keep right on going. 753 00:43:04,945 --> 00:43:07,985 Hans Buetow: Yeah. You pause for a moment just to be like, hey, 754 00:43:07,985 --> 00:43:12,610 let's slow down. Yeah. No, that was an escalation, right? And so 755 00:43:12,610 --> 00:43:17,250 speaking of escalations like Philando Castile, Ja'Marr Clark, 756 00:43:17,650 --> 00:43:19,970 George Floyd, now Renee Goode. 757 00:43:21,090 --> 00:43:23,745 Are we really about to do all this again? Like it's still 758 00:43:23,745 --> 00:43:26,865 tense here in the cities. There's protests happening in 759 00:43:27,505 --> 00:43:31,425 other cities around the country. The governor's getting mad. The 760 00:43:31,905 --> 00:43:33,665 National Guard has been activated. 761 00:43:33,745 --> 00:43:38,225 Like this, it feels like 2020 all of a sudden. Like, we doing 762 00:43:38,225 --> 00:43:38,705 this again? 763 00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:43,670 Em Cassel: Yeah. It really feels strikingly similar. I on a 764 00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:47,590 personal level, I live basically equidistant between George Floyd 765 00:43:47,590 --> 00:43:50,630 Square and the intersection where Renee Goode was killed. 766 00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:54,095 And just the reaction from community members feels very 767 00:43:54,095 --> 00:43:58,495 much the same. The constantly circling helicopters overhead, 768 00:43:58,495 --> 00:43:59,535 that feels the same. 769 00:43:59,535 --> 00:44:02,815 Yeah. This feeling from the community of being 770 00:44:02,815 --> 00:44:07,120 simultaneously activated and wanting to help, but also 771 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,320 feeling like, what do I do with this energy? How do I be 772 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,040 productive? And also this kind of feeling of helplessness, like 773 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,465 Philando, Jamar, George, Renee, they are dead. They have been 774 00:44:19,465 --> 00:44:23,865 taken from us by, you know, agents of the state. 775 00:44:24,585 --> 00:44:27,705 Yeah. This sort of feeling of like, does it ever stop? What 776 00:44:27,705 --> 00:44:31,145 would stop it? I don't know. 777 00:44:31,465 --> 00:44:34,890 Hans Buetow: Yeah. Why do you think Minnesota, so many of 778 00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:37,770 these things have happened? Why what is it about Minnesota that 779 00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:41,930 makes it a hotspot for these sorts of videos and then the 780 00:44:41,930 --> 00:44:43,370 reactions they generate? 781 00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:46,250 Em Cassel: I've thought about this a lot and I have seen other 782 00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:49,075 people sort of working through this a lot online over the last 783 00:44:49,075 --> 00:44:53,635 few days. I think it's kind of twofold. I think one is that 784 00:44:54,435 --> 00:44:57,235 Minnesotans and people in the Twin Cities specifically really 785 00:44:57,235 --> 00:45:01,235 do show up for their communities in a way that I I'm not trying 786 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,080 to be like a Minnesota exceptionalism about this. Other 787 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:03,720 people don't. Yeah. 788 00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:07,000 Not really. Yeah. I but I really do think that, like, people here 789 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,520 show up for their neighbors and and get involved. And when there 790 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,840 is a chance to protest, they protest. And when there is a 791 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:13,800 vigil, they go. 792 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,165 And when, you know, so so it kind of creates these scenes 793 00:45:18,165 --> 00:45:23,925 that are very striking. At the same time, I think we talked a 794 00:45:23,925 --> 00:45:26,965 little bit about the media ecosystem component of this. And 795 00:45:26,965 --> 00:45:30,060 actually, unlike some other major American cities, the Twin 796 00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:33,500 Cities does still have a pretty robust media ecosystem. We have 797 00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:36,460 phenomenal journalists and photojournalists over at NPR, 798 00:45:36,460 --> 00:45:40,860 Minnesota Public Radio. We have a phenomenal daily newspaper in 799 00:45:40,860 --> 00:45:41,660 the Star Tribune. 800 00:45:42,035 --> 00:45:45,395 We have lots of other, you know, the Minnesota Reformer, Hunt 801 00:45:45,395 --> 00:45:50,595 Journal. So we have like, are a tremendous number of local 802 00:45:50,595 --> 00:45:51,395 journalists There's 803 00:45:51,395 --> 00:45:52,515 Hans Buetow: one called Racket? 804 00:45:52,595 --> 00:45:54,675 Em Cassel: Have you heard of it? Have you heard? Yeah. 805 00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:57,100 Hans Buetow: But it's true. Like, you're a part of this 806 00:45:57,100 --> 00:45:58,380 ecosystem. Absolutely. 807 00:45:58,620 --> 00:46:02,700 Em Cassel: Yeah. So I think the kind of like getting the story 808 00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:07,100 out to the broader news media starts with that really robust 809 00:46:07,100 --> 00:46:11,075 media ecosystem that we have in the Twin Cities, where when 810 00:46:11,075 --> 00:46:13,555 something happens, when a woman is killed by ICE you know, a man 811 00:46:13,555 --> 00:46:17,395 was killed by ICE in Chicago, not not too long ago. 812 00:46:17,395 --> 00:46:18,755 Hans Buetow: Like week or something ago? 813 00:46:18,755 --> 00:46:22,355 Em Cassel: Yes. And it just didn't feel like that kind of 814 00:46:22,355 --> 00:46:25,520 like got out beyond its immediate bubble unless you were 815 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,480 really paying attention to this stuff. And with Renee Goode, I 816 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,960 think several things that are different about it are there 817 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,320 were multiple other observers, everyday citizens, who were 818 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,040 there filming the incident at the time, and that sort of falls 819 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,795 into the first point of, like, people show up here. Yeah. And 820 00:46:39,795 --> 00:46:43,795 then the second part of it being the local media ecosystem sprang 821 00:46:43,795 --> 00:46:46,435 into action immediately following that. 822 00:46:46,435 --> 00:46:50,115 And I think that helps then get the story out and then it 823 00:46:50,115 --> 00:46:52,890 spreads online and it, you know, it becomes then a national and 824 00:46:52,890 --> 00:46:55,850 an international story in a way that it might not in other 825 00:46:55,850 --> 00:46:56,650 cities. 826 00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:06,890 Hans Buetow: Well, Em, I don't really know what's gonna happen 827 00:47:07,515 --> 00:47:08,315 Me either. 828 00:47:08,395 --> 00:47:09,595 Em Cassel: Over the weekend. 829 00:47:11,755 --> 00:47:13,435 Hans Buetow: A lot of people have been asking me. I go into 830 00:47:13,435 --> 00:47:15,355 meetings and stuff and a lot of people are asking me like, how's 831 00:47:15,355 --> 00:47:17,995 it feel there? How's it feel there? And I'd say it feels 832 00:47:17,995 --> 00:47:20,155 scary right now. And I think it's going to be a tough 833 00:47:20,155 --> 00:47:20,715 weekend. 834 00:47:20,715 --> 00:47:24,600 There's a big protest planned for Saturday afternoon. We're 835 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,960 going see what happens there over in Powderhorn Park. And 836 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,120 they're not stopping. They're not pulling back. In fact, 837 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,555 they've just sent more agents in to add to the 2,000 plus that 838 00:47:36,555 --> 00:47:37,515 are already here. 839 00:47:38,475 --> 00:47:40,075 Are you going back out in the field? 840 00:47:40,395 --> 00:47:43,915 Em Cassel: Yeah. I'll be out again today. I've been returning 841 00:47:43,915 --> 00:47:46,875 to thirty fourth in Portland a few times over the last couple 842 00:47:46,875 --> 00:47:50,320 of days. I will be at the protest this weekend and, yeah, 843 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:50,640 plan to 844 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,080 Hans Buetow: keep showing up. Thanks for showing up, both in a 845 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,400 wider sense and then in a direct sense of like, thanks for 846 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,440 showing up on my screen and like hanging out with me and helping 847 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,240 me understand all this stuff. It's been really helpful to talk 848 00:48:02,955 --> 00:48:05,755 through the full ecology of these things or a little bit 849 00:48:05,755 --> 00:48:07,355 more of the full ecology of these things. 850 00:48:07,355 --> 00:48:09,195 Em Cassel: So thanks for taking the time today. Yeah. I hope 851 00:48:09,195 --> 00:48:11,755 that it was helpful. I know it's it's difficult even here in the 852 00:48:11,755 --> 00:48:13,675 Twin Cities to kind of keep track of everything that's 853 00:48:13,675 --> 00:48:15,915 happening. So if you're trying to keep track of it from beyond, 854 00:48:15,915 --> 00:48:16,875 I can't even imagine. 855 00:48:17,340 --> 00:48:19,980 Hans Buetow: So, Em, where can people follow you if they want 856 00:48:19,980 --> 00:48:22,140 to follow more of this coverage and the stuff that you're doing? 857 00:48:22,140 --> 00:48:23,180 How can people find you? 858 00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:28,220 Em Cassel: Absolutely. You can find Racket at racketmn.com. And 859 00:48:28,220 --> 00:48:30,300 if you're interested in following along with me, my 860 00:48:30,300 --> 00:48:33,755 social handle is bike trouble on most platforms. 861 00:48:33,755 --> 00:48:39,835 Hans Buetow: Yeah, it is. M Castle from Racket. Thank you so 862 00:48:39,835 --> 00:48:40,235 much. 863 00:48:40,235 --> 00:48:41,035 Em Cassel: Thanks, Hans. 864 00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:53,080 Hans Buetow: So that is the show we have for you this week. We 865 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,560 will be back here next Wednesday once more in your feed, and we 866 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,240 have an update for you on what's happening with the show, some 867 00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:05,075 big big moves, and some fun moves. So make sure to tune in. 868 00:49:05,635 --> 00:49:10,595 Please go follow m Castle and Racket. And if you wanna follow 869 00:49:10,595 --> 00:49:14,515 more independent news in Minnesota, the Sahan Journal, S 870 00:49:14,515 --> 00:49:18,620 A H a n, or the Minnesota reformer are always worth 871 00:49:18,620 --> 00:49:19,580 checking out. 872 00:49:19,660 --> 00:49:23,020 Citycast Twin Cities is another one that both m and I are 873 00:49:23,020 --> 00:49:26,060 contributors for. And, of course, if you have independent 874 00:49:26,060 --> 00:49:30,220 media in your town who covers your local space, please find 875 00:49:30,220 --> 00:49:34,935 them, read, and listen. And if you can, give them a little bit 876 00:49:34,935 --> 00:49:39,095 of cash. Never post producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia 877 00:49:39,095 --> 00:49:42,855 Hampton, and the mysterious doctor. First name, last name. 878 00:49:42,855 --> 00:49:46,135 Our senior producer is Hans Buto. That's me. Our executive 879 00:49:46,135 --> 00:49:51,150 producer is Jason Oberholzer. The show's host most weeks is 880 00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:55,150 Mike Rignan. Neverpost is a production of Charts and Leisure 881 00:49:55,150 --> 00:49:57,470 and distributed by Radiotopia.