Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to Neverpost, a
podcast for and about the Internet. I'm your host, Mike
Rugnetta, and this is the first ever archival pull on the
Neverpost feed. Over this next year, we're gonna be dipping
back into the archive to surface some segments you may have
missed. Maybe you joined us more recently and haven't made your
way through the back catalog. Maybe the other segment it was
paired with caught your ear, you listened and then you stopped
listening because you had to sit quietly thinking deeply about
what you just heard.
Don't worry, either way, we are here to trawl through our own
past and bring to the surface only the finest pieces from the
back catalog. Our first in this process seemed like an obvious
choice, both because it was a segment in our first episode and
also because it's a line of thought that's bracketed so much
of what we've done in the show since we started. You're about
to hear me and my good friend Bijan Steven talk about posting
disease or posters madness. An affliction of those too online
who become unable to loose themselves from the internet's
grasp and among other symptoms are unable to appreciate the
wider world through any lens other than that of the online.
In a way, the segment presents a fundamental question that we
grapple with in every episode of Never How do you exist online?
How do you use, enjoy, and maybe even advocate for the internet
without going mad? Sometimes the internet makes me feel a little
crazy as I'm sure it does you too. Social media especially. My
friend Tim once used this phrase, diabolic merriment,
which I think about often as the sort of like tizzy one can get
in, caught in the swirling tides of online. For instance, you
know, like sometimes I stay up a little late.
I think I don't have work tomorrow, I'll have a little
scroll and we all know how this goes. Diabolic merriment. Then
I'm up till the wee dark and the next morning I have scrollers
remorse. A different kind of social hangover but I just I
couldn't tear myself away. I'm lucky though, maybe, in that
while I often spend too much time looking, I almost never
spend that time posting, not anymore at least.
Perhaps you're getting a little insight into why the show is
named what it is. I don't really desire to contribute most of the
time in posts because I know what it can lead to. I've lived
it and I've learned that kind of thing is not for me, especially
on social media sites like Twitter or X and Blue Sky,
etcetera. But some people, they live for it. They need the
attention or some byproduct of it.
They just can't stop themselves. Another friend of mine, Bijan
Steven, said something to me once that I also think about
often. A turn of phrase that is perhaps the other side of the
diabolic merriment coin. And that turn of phrase is what this
segment is about. Joining me now is Bijan Steven.
Bijan is a writer and narrative designer. He's written and
reported for Vice, vox.com, and The Verge. He worked as a senior
editor at campsite media where he hosted, reported, and
produced the narrative history podcast eclipsed and the true
crime series chameleon. He's currently a music critic at the
nation and a contract writer at valve. Bijan and I also spend a
lot of time together playing the actual play podcast Fun City,
where Bijan is the mysterious retired boxer, TK.
Bijan, welcome. It is very strange and fun to talk to you
in a podcast setting where there are no dice involved.
Bijan Stephen: Yeah. I it's a little weird, but I'm I'm liking
the lack of a dice roller. I'm gonna be honest. They're not
terribly nice to me. But thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be here.
Mike Rugnetta: I have like a a big real question for you
Bijan Stephen: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Mike Rugnetta: With some background. So a while ago, you
and I were hanging out and we were talking about the Internet,
as we are want to do, and you said something to me that has
just stuck like a quill in my brain ever since. It is a turn
of phrase that I found so immediately resonant that, like,
I cannot stop thinking about it. You described someone as having
posting disease, the disease of posters of people who post
things on the Internet, but crucially, it seems like it's
not everyone who posts has posting disease, only certain
people. So I was wondering, just to get us started, if right off
the bat, you could just describe what is posting disease?
Bijan Stephen: Yeah. Of course. Posting disease, also known as
posters madness, is, what happens to your brain, when
you've been online too long and you start seeing the world and
experiencing reality in terms of the post you're going to make
about it. When you've spent so much time online that everything
looks like a post to you or a potential post,
Mike Rugnetta: I mean. Okay. This is interesting because I
think of posting disease as when someone posts on the Internet
and either just the action of posting or the very content of
the post is going to be directly harmful to them.
Bijan Stephen: So to be clear, like, act of posting is bad for
them and they know it and they do it anyway?
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah.
Bijan Stephen: Yeah. I think that's related. Because I think
I think I think one is the early symptoms and one is the far more
advanced disease.
Mike Rugnetta: Which one is the advanced side?
Bijan Stephen: I think I really like that when you when everyone
in your life is like, I hate what you're doing. I hate your
posts and I hate you because of them. And, you know, you can't
stop doing that or seeing the world in those terms. Like, if
you're, for example, like, Graham Lineham, the guy who
created the IT Crowd.
Mike Rugnetta: Hey, Mike here. I just wanna break in really
quickly to say, in case you don't know, Graham Linehan is a
British TV producer who worked on Father Ted, Black Books, and
the IT crowd. He has spent the last several years waging an
unceasingly cruel crusade against the trans community
online. By his own account, this has made his life much harder.
Or as Bijan goes on to say.
Bijan Stephen: Like, you just you lose your mind, you lose
your wife, then you lose your job, and then you lose your
agents, and you descend into a hell of your own making, which
is just populated by your thoughts about the world. And
there's a bunch of people you can see agreeing with you, but
nobody else in your real life appears to. And I think it takes
months of posts like that before you sort of get to you really
have full blown Poster's disease.
Mike Rugnetta: Do you think that posting disease is a kind of
addiction to social media that clouds otherwise open and
receptive parts of your personality? Or do you think it
like it's bigger than that or or less?
Bijan Stephen: I think it's I I I feel like it's an unfortunate
consequence of living on an Internet that people have
decided needs to make a ton of money. Like, the the reasons
that posting disease develops into posters madness, etcetera,
are specifically because of the incentives. Right? Like,
algorithmically sorted feeds reward certain kinds of posts
and don't reward other kinds of posts. And once you've learned
how to get the algorithm to notice your posts, that's where
the disease sort of begins to develop.
And I think because all of these algorithms to a larger or lesser
extent prioritize engagement, which means like engagement from
all of the other users seeing your post, Any post with like
sufficiently inflammatory or out there or just weird ideas can
get picked up because other people are either dunking on it,
is another signal to the algorithm. This is more
engagement. Like because like the other thing, engagement is
neutral. It's like to an algorithm, a dunk is the same
as, like, not a dunk. It's the same kind of engagement.
The more people hate it, the more it gets shared, the more it
gets dunked on, the more engagement you get. I mean and
all of these, like, behaviors are positively reinforced by,
like, the numbers. Right? The metrics go up when you do these
things. This is a very seductive illness.
It's like something that truly, like, it it takes hold very
subtly. And then when you realize maybe what's happening,
you're kind of in too deep to stop. Those decisions, those
behind the scenes technical decisions of what to weight more
heavily and what to promote and what not to promote, I think,
are the things that actually induce posting disease in
people. Because the human brain is not designed to produce this
much dopamine kind of, like, every notification gives you a
little hit of a good feeling. And I think that specifically,
the act of being able to receive positive reinforcement at a at a
distance.
Mike Rugnetta: And to, like, summon it. You can, like, you
can Yeah. You can really, like, cast a spell and have it brought
to you.
Bijan Stephen: And it's it's really powerful, especially if
you're feeling lonely or isolated or somewhere where you
can't really get that affirmation in real life. I
think it's it's really powerful, but it's a double edged sword.
Right? Like, it's it can be really good for you or really
bad for you. And it can both be good and bad at the same time,
which I think is the confusing part about all of this.
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So now that we have, like, a sort of
theoretical backbone and a definition, I wonder if we can
get practical and just talk about what are some things out
in the world that are the biggest examples of posting
disease or even, like, people who exhibit it almost, like,
paradigmatically?
Bijan Stephen: Yeah. I think, the most obvious answer, is Elon
Musk. I think Graham Lineham, who I mentioned earlier, another
guy who suffers from posting disease. I think any turf in The
UK, all the Mumsnet posters, those those people are fucking
nuts.
Mike Rugnetta: What do they all share that makes that puts them
in this group?
Bijan Stephen: They share they share a desire to be victimized,
to be the victim of whatever situation they're in. I think
they also seem to share, like, this this basic sense of
aggrievedness. Like, they are they are perpetually crotchety
about something in society. Like, they want to convince
people that their views are correct about things, and that
the way they see the world is the right way to see it.
Mike Rugnetta: That's a big thing, I think, for this group
of people specifically like Elon Musk, Graham, JK Rowling.
Bijan Stephen: Exactly.
Mike Rugnetta: It's like they all seem like they really they
want a very specific group of people to like them.
Bijan Stephen: Yes.
Mike Rugnetta: And for some reason, they view posting as the
main way to do that. Yes. And in it seems like instead what is
happening is that for each of them, it is just ruining them.
Bijan Stephen: Posters madness in in its most full blown forms
is like it's like drinking seawater. Like, yeah, maybe
you'll feel a little less thirsty, and then you'll feel
much more thirsty. It's never going to accomplish a thing you
want it to.
Mike Rugnetta: But I think we should say also or we should
recognize that this is a very particular stripe of posting
madness. And that to me, there is there is another stripe of
it, which is like Chrissy Teigen, who has Yeah. Publicly
admitted. She's like, I have like, I gotta step away. I am
doing this too much, and then couldn't.
And like, k you know?
Bijan Stephen: She also has not seemed to have posted on Twitter
since May 8, so there is hope.
Mike Rugnetta: Or like, does Alyssa Milano belong in this
grouping at all?
Bijan Stephen: Yes. Absolutely.
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So what what why? You're looking at the
post right now. Can you
Bijan Stephen: tell us why? Resistance posters are also like
they they fall into this category because they do think
post online are equivalent to taking actions in the real
world, like with your physical hands and legs and stuff. And
the idea that you have to weigh in on everything that happens in
your specific domain is is is a sign. It's like that's another
symptom.
Mike Rugnetta: I think of Alyssa Milano as belonging to a group
of people who have a posting madness that also includes,
like, say, Brooklyn dad defiant.
Bijan Stephen: Yeah. Who is resistance grifter. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. Another sort of like, yeah,
resistance grifter or, you know, depending upon who you talk to,
like, party operative, liberal shit poster Yeah. Is something
I've seen people describe him as. People who are doing this
kind of, fight picking, you know.
It's like every post is arguing against some imagined
interlocutor who might never actually exist or interact with
them.
Bijan Stephen: Right. You make up a guy and get fucking mad at
them. That's a classic classic way
Mike Rugnetta: of us a guy. The classic move. Make up a guy.
Bijan Stephen: I think, the most enduring discourses are, like,
the low stakes cultural friction ones. Like, it's like washing
your legs. White people don't wash their legs. That was a
discourse. The dress, another kind of it wasn't really a
discourse, but it was like the kind of thing that is extremely
low stakes that everyone can have an opinion on and everyone
can do a riff on because, you know, it's that's the whole
thing is where you can do you see it, or do you not see it, or
what are you seeing?
You know?
Mike Rugnetta: And it's something you can have a
perspective about what's right on.
Bijan Stephen: Exactly. And it's so low stakes that it does not
matter.
Mike Rugnetta: Maybe the the sort of hierarchy that we're
developing here as far as what meaningful vectors of posting
disease are is that all trends are low level vectors of posting
disease. It is possible that they will trigger its
development, but that any amount of discourse is a stronger
vector. And the more one can reasonably say that they are
correct about their take on that discourse, the stronger the
vector for posting disease it is. So something like the dress
is like, I think probably very low likelihood that someone
could be insistent that their perspective on it is absolutely
factually right. Whereas Right.
Washing your legs is something that I feel like is maybe a
middle of the road. You can more vociferously defend your
position as being correct, especially I think if your
position is wash the legs because that feels like moral
high ground.
Bijan Stephen: Yes. I think the Internet is is flattening in the
way that it does not seem to allow people to have two
thoughts about the world at the same time. Nuance is not
incentivized, and I think that's why posting in the gray area
about gray area subjects is always going to lead to, like,
stronger, worse opinions, because other people could be
right. You know? Yeah.
If you're recognizing yourself in some of these examples, maybe
it's time to take a second and think because I do think this is
not untreatable. It's not like something it's not like death
sentence. It's not like an a social death sentence, should
say. You just have to, like, sit down and rethink what's going
on. Like, you you just need to to make sure that your
engagement with these social platforms and the Internet at
large is something that is positive and healthy and
generative and not something that's, you know, making you
feel terrible all the time.
Like, if you're wondering why people are just yelling at you
all day and your mentions, the problem is you.
Mike Rugnetta: To follow our epidemiological metaphor that we
have with posting disease at least, less so posting madness.
I wonder if we could get prescriptive and to say Sure.
You, the poster, the imagined poster, here are the things that
you can do, the preventative measures that you can take to
prevent yourself from contracting this illness. What
is the pre post safety checklist, that that we can put
together?
Bijan Stephen: Yeah. That's a good idea. I I think, knowing
what your post is about and what your real intentions with it
are. Are you trying to promote something? Are you trying to
start some Discourse?
Are you trying to respond to some Discourse? Are you
subtweeting? Like, are you what are what are you doing? Second
thing is thinking about the potential impact of your post on
your life. Is this going to make your life marginally worse in
the next twenty minutes to two days?
And if so, like, just don't don't do it if you can't handle
it. You know? Like, if if you can't handle the heat
Mike Rugnetta: Stay out of the posting kitchen.
Bijan Stephen: Stay out of the posting kitchen because you're
not ready to cook. If you are going to post and you've decided
to make the post and you're you have your heart set on it, just
think about, like, whether or not you actually want to handle
the kind of criticism that you might invite from the worst bad
faith readers online who can't tell between not liking
something and thinking it's morally bad. You know? Like
like, what will you do when your post if your post escapes
containment? You know?
That's I think that's another good question to ask yourself. I
will also say the one thing that you should really do is just
never assume the thing you're doing is normal because there
are so many people and so many different kinds of experiences.
And it's the the funniest low stakes dunks are people being
like, what? You don't wash your legs? That was like a week of
discourse on Twitter.
And it's just like, Why did we do that?
Mike Rugnetta: Do I absolutely need to contribute to this
conversation is I think a very important question to ask
oneself. That's
Bijan Stephen: that is really the question. That's the the
guiding thing. It's like, what am I actually doing here?
Mike Rugnetta: Can I just turn to someone or text a friend
about this instead?
Bijan Stephen: I think one thing to remember is that there's
almost no way to win an argument online because people will never
say that they were wrong. If you're actually sure about what
you're doing and you realize people just don't understand it,
that's one thing.
Mike Rugnetta: But then you gotta be able to walk away.
Bijan Stephen: You gotta be able to walk away. You also gotta be
able to distinguish when you've actually been wrong. So if
you're going to post, admit to yourself the possibility that
you might be wrong about what you're posting. If somebody's
like, hey. Rethink this.
I have to be able to distinguish from whether they're being
assholes or not and trying to just teach me something. Because
it is your responsibility if you're going to post. You you
can't miss an opportunity for learning, I think. Like, because
posting is obviously a two way street. Like, you you are
reaching out to a bunch of other people to try and connect with
them.
And it is I think the base your base responsibility to have the
humility to think that you might be wrong and somebody hit and
other people have things to teach you, you know?
Mike Rugnetta: I think that's extremely meaningful and great
advice.
Bijan Stephen: I've this is the the advice that I'm always
trying to take myself, but I hope somebody finds it useful.
Mike Rugnetta: Bijan, thank you so much for joining us. I really
appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule to have a
chat with us about posting disease and how to avoid it.
Bijan Stephen: Of course. Anytime. I love talking about
posting, unfortunately, which is it's in itself, you know, that's
a slippery slope.
Mike Rugnetta: Where can people find you and your work online?
Bijan Stephen: The place I'm posting the most these days is
Blue Sky. But, yeah, you know, I I do I have a blog. I have a
website. It's bichonsteven.blog. That's right.
Let's go.
Mike Rugnetta: That is the archival episode we have for you
today. If you'd like to listen to the original upload with news
and interstitials, you can find the link in the show notes.
Neverpost is primarily listener funded. So if you enjoyed this
segment, please consider becoming a member at neverpo.st.
You can gain access to an ad free member feed while helping
us keep the show going.
Never posts producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the
mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior producer
is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholzer,
and the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. I like a
wreckage I can manage myself. The chance it offers for that
particular version of power that comes from winnowing cleanly the
lost from the still salvageable.
Not erasing disorder exactly, but returning order to a fair
footing at least beside a wilderness I wouldn't live
without. Excerpt of If You Will, I Will by Carl Phillips. Never
Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and is distributed
by Radiotopia.