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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello,
and welcome to Neverpost, a

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podcast for and about the
Internet. I'm your host, Mike

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Rugnetta, and this is the first
ever archival pull on the

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Neverpost feed. Over this next
year, we're gonna be dipping

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back into the archive to surface
some segments you may have

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missed. Maybe you joined us more
recently and haven't made your

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way through the back catalog.
Maybe the other segment it was

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paired with caught your ear, you
listened and then you stopped

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listening because you had to sit
quietly thinking deeply about

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what you just heard.

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Don't worry, either way, we are
here to trawl through our own

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past and bring to the surface
only the finest pieces from the

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back catalog. Our first in this
process seemed like an obvious

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choice, both because it was a
segment in our first episode and

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also because it's a line of
thought that's bracketed so much

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of what we've done in the show
since we started. You're about

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to hear me and my good friend
Bijan Steven talk about posting

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disease or posters madness. An
affliction of those too online

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who become unable to loose
themselves from the internet's

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grasp and among other symptoms
are unable to appreciate the

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wider world through any lens
other than that of the online.

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In a way, the segment presents a
fundamental question that we

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grapple with in every episode of
Never How do you exist online?

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How do you use, enjoy, and maybe
even advocate for the internet

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without going mad? Sometimes the
internet makes me feel a little

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crazy as I'm sure it does you
too. Social media especially. My

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friend Tim once used this
phrase, diabolic merriment,

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which I think about often as the
sort of like tizzy one can get

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in, caught in the swirling tides
of online. For instance, you

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know, like sometimes I stay up a
little late.

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I think I don't have work
tomorrow, I'll have a little

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scroll and we all know how this
goes. Diabolic merriment. Then

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I'm up till the wee dark and the
next morning I have scrollers

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remorse. A different kind of
social hangover but I just I

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couldn't tear myself away. I'm
lucky though, maybe, in that

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while I often spend too much
time looking, I almost never

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spend that time posting, not
anymore at least.

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Perhaps you're getting a little
insight into why the show is

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named what it is. I don't really
desire to contribute most of the

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time in posts because I know
what it can lead to. I've lived

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it and I've learned that kind of
thing is not for me, especially

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on social media sites like
Twitter or X and Blue Sky,

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etcetera. But some people, they
live for it. They need the

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attention or some byproduct of
it.

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They just can't stop themselves.
Another friend of mine, Bijan

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Steven, said something to me
once that I also think about

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often. A turn of phrase that is
perhaps the other side of the

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diabolic merriment coin. And
that turn of phrase is what this

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segment is about. Joining me now
is Bijan Steven.

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Bijan is a writer and narrative
designer. He's written and

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reported for Vice, vox.com, and
The Verge. He worked as a senior

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editor at campsite media where
he hosted, reported, and

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produced the narrative history
podcast eclipsed and the true

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crime series chameleon. He's
currently a music critic at the

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nation and a contract writer at
valve. Bijan and I also spend a

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lot of time together playing the
actual play podcast Fun City,

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where Bijan is the mysterious
retired boxer, TK.

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Bijan, welcome. It is very
strange and fun to talk to you

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in a podcast setting where there
are no dice involved.

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Bijan Stephen: Yeah. I it's a
little weird, but I'm I'm liking

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the lack of a dice roller. I'm
gonna be honest. They're not

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terribly nice to me. But thank
you for having me.

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I'm glad to be here.

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Mike Rugnetta: I have like a a
big real question for you

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Bijan Stephen: Mhmm. Mhmm.

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Mike Rugnetta: With some
background. So a while ago, you

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and I were hanging out and we
were talking about the Internet,

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as we are want to do, and you
said something to me that has

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just stuck like a quill in my
brain ever since. It is a turn

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of phrase that I found so
immediately resonant that, like,

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I cannot stop thinking about it.
You described someone as having

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posting disease, the disease of
posters of people who post

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things on the Internet, but
crucially, it seems like it's

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not everyone who posts has
posting disease, only certain

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people. So I was wondering, just
to get us started, if right off

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the bat, you could just describe
what is posting disease?

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Bijan Stephen: Yeah. Of course.
Posting disease, also known as

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posters madness, is, what
happens to your brain, when

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you've been online too long and
you start seeing the world and

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experiencing reality in terms of
the post you're going to make

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about it. When you've spent so
much time online that everything

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looks like a post to you or a
potential post,

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Mike Rugnetta: I mean. Okay.
This is interesting because I

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think of posting disease as when
someone posts on the Internet

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and either just the action of
posting or the very content of

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the post is going to be directly
harmful to them.

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Bijan Stephen: So to be clear,
like, act of posting is bad for

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them and they know it and they
do it anyway?

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah.

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Bijan Stephen: Yeah. I think
that's related. Because I think

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I think I think one is the early
symptoms and one is the far more

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advanced disease.

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Mike Rugnetta: Which one is the
advanced side?

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Bijan Stephen: I think I really
like that when you when everyone

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in your life is like, I hate
what you're doing. I hate your

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posts and I hate you because of
them. And, you know, you can't

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stop doing that or seeing the
world in those terms. Like, if

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you're, for example, like,
Graham Lineham, the guy who

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created the IT Crowd.

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Mike Rugnetta: Hey, Mike here. I
just wanna break in really

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quickly to say, in case you
don't know, Graham Linehan is a

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British TV producer who worked
on Father Ted, Black Books, and

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the IT crowd. He has spent the
last several years waging an

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unceasingly cruel crusade
against the trans community

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online. By his own account, this
has made his life much harder.

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Or as Bijan goes on to say.

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Bijan Stephen: Like, you just
you lose your mind, you lose

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your wife, then you lose your
job, and then you lose your

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agents, and you descend into a
hell of your own making, which

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is just populated by your
thoughts about the world. And

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there's a bunch of people you
can see agreeing with you, but

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nobody else in your real life
appears to. And I think it takes

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months of posts like that before
you sort of get to you really

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have full blown Poster's
disease.

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Mike Rugnetta: Do you think that
posting disease is a kind of

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addiction to social media that
clouds otherwise open and

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receptive parts of your
personality? Or do you think it

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like it's bigger than that or or
less?

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Bijan Stephen: I think it's I I
I feel like it's an unfortunate

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consequence of living on an
Internet that people have

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decided needs to make a ton of
money. Like, the the reasons

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that posting disease develops
into posters madness, etcetera,

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are specifically because of the
incentives. Right? Like,

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algorithmically sorted feeds
reward certain kinds of posts

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and don't reward other kinds of
posts. And once you've learned

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how to get the algorithm to
notice your posts, that's where

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the disease sort of begins to
develop.

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And I think because all of these
algorithms to a larger or lesser

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extent prioritize engagement,
which means like engagement from

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all of the other users seeing
your post, Any post with like

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sufficiently inflammatory or out
there or just weird ideas can

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get picked up because other
people are either dunking on it,

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is another signal to the
algorithm. This is more

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engagement. Like because like
the other thing, engagement is

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neutral. It's like to an
algorithm, a dunk is the same

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as, like, not a dunk. It's the
same kind of engagement.

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The more people hate it, the
more it gets shared, the more it

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gets dunked on, the more
engagement you get. I mean and

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all of these, like, behaviors
are positively reinforced by,

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like, the numbers. Right? The
metrics go up when you do these

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things. This is a very seductive
illness.

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It's like something that truly,
like, it it takes hold very

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subtly. And then when you
realize maybe what's happening,

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you're kind of in too deep to
stop. Those decisions, those

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behind the scenes technical
decisions of what to weight more

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heavily and what to promote and
what not to promote, I think,

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are the things that actually
induce posting disease in

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people. Because the human brain
is not designed to produce this

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much dopamine kind of, like,
every notification gives you a

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little hit of a good feeling.
And I think that specifically,

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the act of being able to receive
positive reinforcement at a at a

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distance.

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Mike Rugnetta: And to, like,
summon it. You can, like, you

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can Yeah. You can really, like,
cast a spell and have it brought

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to you.

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Bijan Stephen: And it's it's
really powerful, especially if

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you're feeling lonely or
isolated or somewhere where you

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can't really get that
affirmation in real life. I

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think it's it's really powerful,
but it's a double edged sword.

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Right? Like, it's it can be
really good for you or really

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bad for you. And it can both be
good and bad at the same time,

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which I think is the confusing
part about all of this.

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Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So now that
we have, like, a sort of

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theoretical backbone and a
definition, I wonder if we can

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get practical and just talk
about what are some things out

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in the world that are the
biggest examples of posting

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disease or even, like, people
who exhibit it almost, like,

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paradigmatically?

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Bijan Stephen: Yeah. I think,
the most obvious answer, is Elon

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Musk. I think Graham Lineham,
who I mentioned earlier, another

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guy who suffers from posting
disease. I think any turf in The

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UK, all the Mumsnet posters,
those those people are fucking

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nuts.

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Mike Rugnetta: What do they all
share that makes that puts them

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in this group?

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Bijan Stephen: They share they
share a desire to be victimized,

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to be the victim of whatever
situation they're in. I think

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they also seem to share, like,
this this basic sense of

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aggrievedness. Like, they are
they are perpetually crotchety

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about something in society.
Like, they want to convince

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people that their views are
correct about things, and that

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the way they see the world is
the right way to see it.

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Mike Rugnetta: That's a big
thing, I think, for this group

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of people specifically like Elon
Musk, Graham, JK Rowling.

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Bijan Stephen: Exactly.

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Mike Rugnetta: It's like they
all seem like they really they

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want a very specific group of
people to like them.

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Bijan Stephen: Yes.

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Mike Rugnetta: And for some
reason, they view posting as the

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main way to do that. Yes. And in
it seems like instead what is

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happening is that for each of
them, it is just ruining them.

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Bijan Stephen: Posters madness
in in its most full blown forms

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is like it's like drinking
seawater. Like, yeah, maybe

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you'll feel a little less
thirsty, and then you'll feel

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much more thirsty. It's never
going to accomplish a thing you

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want it to.

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Mike Rugnetta: But I think we
should say also or we should

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recognize that this is a very
particular stripe of posting

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madness. And that to me, there
is there is another stripe of

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it, which is like Chrissy
Teigen, who has Yeah. Publicly

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admitted. She's like, I have
like, I gotta step away. I am

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doing this too much, and then
couldn't.

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And like, k you know?

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Bijan Stephen: She also has not
seemed to have posted on Twitter

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since May 8, so there is hope.

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Mike Rugnetta: Or like, does
Alyssa Milano belong in this

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grouping at all?

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Bijan Stephen: Yes. Absolutely.

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Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So what
what why? You're looking at the

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post right now. Can you

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Bijan Stephen: tell us why?
Resistance posters are also like

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they they fall into this
category because they do think

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post online are equivalent to
taking actions in the real

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world, like with your physical
hands and legs and stuff. And

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the idea that you have to weigh
in on everything that happens in

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your specific domain is is is a
sign. It's like that's another

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symptom.

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Mike Rugnetta: I think of Alyssa
Milano as belonging to a group

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of people who have a posting
madness that also includes,

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like, say, Brooklyn dad defiant.

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Bijan Stephen: Yeah. Who is
resistance grifter. Yeah. Yeah.

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah.
Another sort of like, yeah,

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resistance grifter or, you know,
depending upon who you talk to,

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like, party operative, liberal
shit poster Yeah. Is something

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I've seen people describe him
as. People who are doing this

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kind of, fight picking, you
know.

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It's like every post is arguing
against some imagined

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interlocutor who might never
actually exist or interact with

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them.

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Bijan Stephen: Right. You make
up a guy and get fucking mad at

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them. That's a classic classic
way

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Mike Rugnetta: of us a guy. The
classic move. Make up a guy.

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Bijan Stephen: I think, the most
enduring discourses are, like,

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the low stakes cultural friction
ones. Like, it's like washing

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your legs. White people don't
wash their legs. That was a

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discourse. The dress, another
kind of it wasn't really a

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discourse, but it was like the
kind of thing that is extremely

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low stakes that everyone can
have an opinion on and everyone

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can do a riff on because, you
know, it's that's the whole

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thing is where you can do you
see it, or do you not see it, or

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what are you seeing?

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You know?

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Mike Rugnetta: And it's
something you can have a

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perspective about what's right
on.

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Bijan Stephen: Exactly. And it's
so low stakes that it does not

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matter.

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Mike Rugnetta: Maybe the the
sort of hierarchy that we're

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developing here as far as what
meaningful vectors of posting

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disease are is that all trends
are low level vectors of posting

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disease. It is possible that
they will trigger its

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development, but that any amount
of discourse is a stronger

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vector. And the more one can
reasonably say that they are

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correct about their take on that
discourse, the stronger the

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vector for posting disease it
is. So something like the dress

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is like, I think probably very
low likelihood that someone

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could be insistent that their
perspective on it is absolutely

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factually right. Whereas Right.

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Washing your legs is something
that I feel like is maybe a

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middle of the road. You can more
vociferously defend your

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position as being correct,
especially I think if your

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position is wash the legs
because that feels like moral

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high ground.

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Bijan Stephen: Yes. I think the
Internet is is flattening in the

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way that it does not seem to
allow people to have two

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thoughts about the world at the
same time. Nuance is not

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incentivized, and I think that's
why posting in the gray area

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about gray area subjects is
always going to lead to, like,

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stronger, worse opinions,
because other people could be

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right. You know? Yeah.

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If you're recognizing yourself
in some of these examples, maybe

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it's time to take a second and
think because I do think this is

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not untreatable. It's not like
something it's not like death

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sentence. It's not like an a
social death sentence, should

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say. You just have to, like, sit
down and rethink what's going

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on. Like, you you just need to
to make sure that your

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engagement with these social
platforms and the Internet at

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large is something that is
positive and healthy and

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generative and not something
that's, you know, making you

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feel terrible all the time.

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Like, if you're wondering why
people are just yelling at you

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all day and your mentions, the
problem is you.

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Mike Rugnetta: To follow our
epidemiological metaphor that we

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have with posting disease at
least, less so posting madness.

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I wonder if we could get
prescriptive and to say Sure.

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You, the poster, the imagined
poster, here are the things that

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you can do, the preventative
measures that you can take to

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prevent yourself from
contracting this illness. What

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is the pre post safety
checklist, that that we can put

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together?

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Bijan Stephen: Yeah. That's a
good idea. I I think, knowing

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what your post is about and what
your real intentions with it

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are. Are you trying to promote
something? Are you trying to

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start some Discourse?

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Are you trying to respond to
some Discourse? Are you

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subtweeting? Like, are you what
are what are you doing? Second

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thing is thinking about the
potential impact of your post on

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your life. Is this going to make
your life marginally worse in

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the next twenty minutes to two
days?

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And if so, like, just don't
don't do it if you can't handle

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00:17:04,055 --> 00:17:06,775
it. You know? Like, if if you
can't handle the heat

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Mike Rugnetta: Stay out of the
posting kitchen.

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Bijan Stephen: Stay out of the
posting kitchen because you're

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not ready to cook. If you are
going to post and you've decided

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to make the post and you're you
have your heart set on it, just

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00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:22,455
think about, like, whether or
not you actually want to handle

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00:17:22,455 --> 00:17:25,735
the kind of criticism that you
might invite from the worst bad

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00:17:25,735 --> 00:17:28,535
faith readers online who can't
tell between not liking

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something and thinking it's
morally bad. You know? Like

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like, what will you do when your
post if your post escapes

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00:17:33,815 --> 00:17:34,615
containment? You know?

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That's I think that's another
good question to ask yourself. I

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00:17:38,110 --> 00:17:41,230
will also say the one thing that
you should really do is just

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never assume the thing you're
doing is normal because there

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are so many people and so many
different kinds of experiences.

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And it's the the funniest low
stakes dunks are people being

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like, what? You don't wash your
legs? That was like a week of

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discourse on Twitter.

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And it's just like, Why did we
do that?

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Mike Rugnetta: Do I absolutely
need to contribute to this

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conversation is I think a very
important question to ask

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00:18:03,955 --> 00:18:04,435
oneself. That's

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00:18:04,915 --> 00:18:06,675
Bijan Stephen: that is really
the question. That's the the

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guiding thing. It's like, what
am I actually doing here?

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Mike Rugnetta: Can I just turn
to someone or text a friend

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00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,600
about this instead?

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Bijan Stephen: I think one thing
to remember is that there's

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almost no way to win an argument
online because people will never

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00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,035
say that they were wrong. If
you're actually sure about what

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you're doing and you realize
people just don't understand it,

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that's one thing.

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Mike Rugnetta: But then you
gotta be able to walk away.

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Bijan Stephen: You gotta be able
to walk away. You also gotta be

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able to distinguish when you've
actually been wrong. So if

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you're going to post, admit to
yourself the possibility that

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00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:37,510
you might be wrong about what
you're posting. If somebody's

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00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:38,710
like, hey. Rethink this.

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00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:41,350
I have to be able to distinguish
from whether they're being

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00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:45,165
assholes or not and trying to
just teach me something. Because

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it is your responsibility if
you're going to post. You you

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00:18:47,965 --> 00:18:51,165
can't miss an opportunity for
learning, I think. Like, because

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00:18:51,165 --> 00:18:54,445
posting is obviously a two way
street. Like, you you are

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00:18:54,445 --> 00:18:56,925
reaching out to a bunch of other
people to try and connect with

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00:18:56,925 --> 00:18:57,085
them.

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And it is I think the base your
base responsibility to have the

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00:19:02,190 --> 00:19:04,430
humility to think that you might
be wrong and somebody hit and

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00:19:04,430 --> 00:19:06,350
other people have things to
teach you, you know?

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Mike Rugnetta: I think that's
extremely meaningful and great

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advice.

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00:19:14,345 --> 00:19:16,105
Bijan Stephen: I've this is the
the advice that I'm always

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trying to take myself, but I
hope somebody finds it useful.

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Mike Rugnetta: Bijan, thank you
so much for joining us. I really

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00:19:23,945 --> 00:19:25,785
appreciate you taking some time
out of your schedule to have a

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00:19:25,785 --> 00:19:28,690
chat with us about posting
disease and how to avoid it.

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00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:30,930
Bijan Stephen: Of course.
Anytime. I love talking about

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00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:34,530
posting, unfortunately, which is
it's in itself, you know, that's

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00:19:34,530 --> 00:19:35,490
a slippery slope.

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00:19:35,570 --> 00:19:38,290
Mike Rugnetta: Where can people
find you and your work online?

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00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:40,165
Bijan Stephen: The place I'm
posting the most these days is

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Blue Sky. But, yeah, you know, I
I do I have a blog. I have a

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website. It's bichonsteven.blog.
That's right.

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Let's go.

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00:19:58,850 --> 00:20:01,330
Mike Rugnetta: That is the
archival episode we have for you

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00:20:01,330 --> 00:20:05,330
today. If you'd like to listen
to the original upload with news

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00:20:05,330 --> 00:20:08,610
and interstitials, you can find
the link in the show notes.

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00:20:08,965 --> 00:20:13,685
Neverpost is primarily listener
funded. So if you enjoyed this

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00:20:13,685 --> 00:20:17,125
segment, please consider
becoming a member at neverpo.st.

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00:20:17,125 --> 00:20:20,565
You can gain access to an ad
free member feed while helping

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us keep the show going.

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00:20:22,670 --> 00:20:26,270
Never posts producers are Audrey
Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the

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00:20:26,270 --> 00:20:29,150
mysterious doctor first name
last name. Our senior producer

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00:20:29,150 --> 00:20:32,750
is Hans Buto. Our executive
producer is Jason Oberholzer,

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00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:37,425
and the show's host, that's me,
is Mike Rugnetta. I like a

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00:20:37,425 --> 00:20:41,185
wreckage I can manage myself.
The chance it offers for that

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00:20:41,185 --> 00:20:45,505
particular version of power that
comes from winnowing cleanly the

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00:20:45,505 --> 00:20:48,065
lost from the still salvageable.

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00:20:48,305 --> 00:20:52,570
Not erasing disorder exactly,
but returning order to a fair

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00:20:52,570 --> 00:20:56,330
footing at least beside a
wilderness I wouldn't live

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00:20:56,330 --> 00:21:02,655
without. Excerpt of If You Will,
I Will by Carl Phillips. Never

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00:21:02,655 --> 00:21:05,935
Post is a production of Charts
and Leisure and is distributed

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00:21:06,175 --> 00:21:07,375
by Radiotopia.