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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello,
and welcome to Never Post's

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state of the podcast 2026. This
is an episode for and about

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Never Post itself and in which
we celebrate our two year

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birthday.

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Hans Buetow: Hell, yeah. We

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Georgia Hampton: did it. Cakes
and candles.

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Hans Buetow: Kicks and

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Mike Rugnetta: candles.
Nevertheless, the pod persisted.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Now I feel
bad.

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Georgia Hampton: Oh, man.

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Mike Rugnetta: We did one of
these last year, and we're gonna

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do another one this year in
which we're gonna let you know

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the chances that we will be
around to make a third one next

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year.

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Georgia Hampton: And what you

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Mike Rugnetta: are about to hear
is a chat between the principal

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producers of the show about how
we are doing as a show. We're

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gonna talk about how many people
listen to Neverpost, how many

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members we have, how much money
we make, and what we spend that

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money on. We're gonna talk about
the challenges of making a

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podcast. We're gonna talk about
what we need to keep doing the

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show. We're gonna talk about all
the things that we're looking

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forward to in our third year,
including some changes to the

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show's format, which I think
secretly all of you that listen

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to the show, you're all a bunch
of freaks or things that you

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want anyways.

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So I don't think any of it's
gonna be a really big deal.

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Before we get too far, we're
gonna do introductions. In order

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of how large I assumed their cup
of coffee was this morning,

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descending. So biggest cup
first.

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Hans Buetow: Single cup. Biggest
single cup.

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Mike Rugnetta: Single cup. Jason
Oberholzer, Never Post executive

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producer.

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Jason Oberholtzer: It's me, your
biggest boy with the biggest

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cup. A

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Mike Rugnetta: gallon. He's got
one of

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Jason Oberholtzer: those gallon.

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Hans Buetow: The things that
truckers have.

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Jason Oberholtzer: I have not
successfully gotten any coffee

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in my hands today. I am the
worst for wear because of it.

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Georgia Hampton: Oh, no. But

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Jason Oberholtzer: you could not
be more incorrect.

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Mike Rugnetta: Could not be more
incorrect.

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Jason Oberholtzer: This is the
host we're here to trust.

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. This is
also an episode in which I

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announce my retirement. Like to
apologize to the audience. I've

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said some things that I regret.

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Georgia Hampton: I'm listening.
I'm learning.

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Mike Rugnetta: No. I'd like to
make it clear. I'm not learning.

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I'm just I'm just leaning. Hans
Buto, never post senior

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producer.

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Hans Buetow: This is I'm holding
it up. The mug that I drank

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coffee out of. So

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Mike Rugnetta: 10:12. Ten head.
Okay. Georgia Hampton, never

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post producer. Not applicable
tea.

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Georgia Hampton: Oh. You could
not be more wrong. You could not

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be more wrong. Not only do I
drink coffee, I only drink black

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coffee.

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Mike Rugnetta: Okay.

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Georgia Hampton: I'd say a safe,
like, eight ounces. But, oh, I

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drink coffee.

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Mike Rugnetta: Oh, that's right,
folks.

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Georgia Hampton: Oh, that's
yeah. I don't mean to brag.

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Jason Oberholtzer: And finally,
Mike Rickenetta, host of the

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podcast who apparently knows
nothing about any of us.

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Georgia Hampton: Yes. It's been
now We're in the third year.

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Mike Rugnetta: Years. I pretty
much always drink iced coffee in

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the morning, and I think that I
probably had about 16 ounces of

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iced coffee this morning.

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Hans Buetow: I think you're the
winner.

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Mike Rugnetta: So yeah. And I'm
your host, Mike Rugnetta. The

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four of us here make up the
secret cabal that own and run

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the show. We build this pod with
our bare hands from shiny

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trinkets that we find on the
sidewalk. And you may be saying

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at this point, hold on.

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Georgia Hampton: Wait a second.

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Mike Rugnetta: Eagle eared
listeners may know this.

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Georgia Hampton: Who the hell
was that?

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Mike Rugnetta: You did one of
these last year, and only three

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Jason Oberholtzer: of you were
here.

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Mike Rugnetta: And now there's
four of you.

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Jason Oberholtzer: And we hate
change.

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Hans Buetow: So prepare for an
episode full of change. Yes.

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Mike Rugnetta: Everybody strap
in. Get get your favorite stuffy

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and Yeah. Hunk it down under
that blanket.

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Hans Buetow: Get your own mug.

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Mike Rugnetta: The big update
that we have to share right up

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top is that Producer Georgia has
been made a full partner of the

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show. So welcome, Producer
Georgia.

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Hans Buetow: Woo hoo.

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Georgia Hampton: Speech. Speech.
Speech. The haters tried to

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sabotage me.

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Jason Oberholtzer: They did.

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Georgia Hampton: They said a
girl like me could never be a

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partner of a podcast.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Name them.

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Georgia Hampton: I unveil a long
scroll. And now I'm in. And I'm

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changing all the passwords.

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Mike Rugnetta: Actually, what
what Georgia says is is

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relatively true. There is an
amount of truth to that. Some of

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you may wonder, wait. Wasn't
Georgia already a partner? What

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is the difference between then
and now and so on and so forth?

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To which our most humble reply
is, this upload is already going

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to be boring enough. Yeah. The
most honest answer that we can

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give is that this means Georgia
will be able to log in to

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slightly more That's so true.

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Georgia Hampton: As a little
girl, I was dreaming of logging

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in to more websites.

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Mike Rugnetta: Of pushing the
transcribe button Yes. And then

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waiting a few seconds.

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Hans Buetow: Alright. That's
enough celebrating. Happy

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birthday to us. Let's be jolly.
We made another year.

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We made in this year. Let's
appreciate ourselves for a

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moment. It's just the four of
us. Jason's gonna have the

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hardest time with this. Let's
let's account for what we did

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this past year.

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In 2025, we made forty one and a
half hours of livestream

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content. Wow. We published 27
newsletters. We published 26

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full episodes. We published nine
sideshow episodes of three

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different shows, eight bonus and
mailbag episodes, three

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collaborations with other shows,
two T shirts, one distribution

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deal with Radiotopia, and zero,
count them, zero social media

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posts.

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Yeah.

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Mike Rugnetta: There are I go
and I check the never post blue

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sky every once in

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Georgia Hampton: a while. Once
in a while. And our most recent

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reply is from someone being
like, I love that you've

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committed to this bit, and you

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Mike Rugnetta: haven't posted
it. You haven't posted anything

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since before the show
technically existed.

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Georgia Hampton: And that's real
dedication. Yeah. It's in the

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name. It's in

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Hans Buetow: the name. So how
does it feel, everybody? How

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let's talk our feelings about
this. How does that you know,

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like, broad sense, how do you
feel about what we did in 2025?

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Mike Rugnetta: Good. I mean, the
show is an incredible amount of

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work. So like, I look at '26
episodes and I'm like, really?

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Only 26? And then I'm like, if I
made if I made more than that, I

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would have died.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. Yeah.
When you really string it out, I

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guess we made a lot of things.

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Georgia Hampton: Did we do

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Hans Buetow: we do folks feel
like we were able to tell the

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kinds of stories that we wanted
to and cover this type of stuff

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that we were looking to and that
we had goals to do?

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Mike Rugnetta: Can I give like
the my most earnest answer to

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this?

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Georgia Hampton: We're talking
about our feelings, Mike.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah.

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Mike Rugnetta: No. But, like,
that's okay. Yeah. You know,

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like, I think I I just I feel
like I can imagine all of the

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things that I wanted to do, and
I got to maybe a small

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percentage of them. Yeah.

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Yeah. I can imagine, like, you
know, even things that we did

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release, like, what more we
could have done with some of

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those things and what what else
sort of like we had to leave on

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the table just because of how
much time we have to make the

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show, the resources that we
have. And, like, the stuff that

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we put out is great, but I just
can't not also think about,

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like,

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Georgia Hampton: oh, if only we
could've if only we could've

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Yeah.

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Mike Rugnetta: Which is just
like the nature of making

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something, but it's it's good
because it's motivating. Right?

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Georgia Hampton: Totally.

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Mike Rugnetta: Like, we know I
know we can do it. You just take

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that lesson forward to the next
thing and hopefully hit all of

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those marks for future stuff.

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Hans Buetow: Yeah.

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Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I totally
agree.

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Hans Buetow: But did we have
fun?

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Mike Rugnetta: Oh, god. Yeah.
Absolutely.

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Hans Buetow: Yeah.
Unquestionable. Yes.

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Georgia Hampton: I would never
allow us.

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Mike Rugnetta: Georgia's putting
on the clown makeup. Oh, she's

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putting on the clown makeup
right now.

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Georgia Hampton: Clown makeup
has been on.

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Jason Oberholtzer: This is fun.
I

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Georgia Hampton: love fun as we
all know. We had fun.

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Jason Oberholtzer: There are
segments in the pile for each of

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us that have been on the pile
for the entire year that I wish

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we had been able to do that we
still will do at some point, but

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that is also the nature of it.
Like prioritization becomes such

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a task. There are so many good
things that I know how they're

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going to be made when they are
able to be made, and I look

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forward to them.

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Hans Buetow: I had a lot of fun
making content and making

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stories and hanging out with you
as a crew. I think the thing

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that was the biggest addition
this year was developing and

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getting closer to the audience.
I felt so good getting to do our

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streams, getting to know the
chat a little bit more, getting

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to field more questions in
mailbags. It's one of the

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reasons that I was excited to do
this show is to be a little bit

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closer to you all, and that
feels like it's happening more

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and more, and that to me is a
lot of fun. So that's been

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really gratifying, and I

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Georgia Hampton: hope to do more
of that.

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Mike Rugnetta: This raises a a
question that we did not discuss

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before beforehand. So I'm sorry
if this is ambushing everybody.

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Do we think we're gonna do
another survey?

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Hans Buetow: Let's do a survey
of the audience. Do you want us

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to know more about you and do a
survey?

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Georgia Hampton: Do you do

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Mike Rugnetta: you want us to
want to know more about you?

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Fill out fill out this survey to
determine if we'll do a survey.

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Georgia Hampton: It'll be in the
newsletter. Don't worry about

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it.

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Hans Buetow: Well, I think it's
a good teaser forward, Mike, to

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what we're gonna announce
because there are some changes

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coming that we're gonna talk
about later in the in the

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episode, and I think I would
like some feedback. I would like

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to know more about what people
think of them. And, yeah, I

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think it's appropriate for us
maybe sometime this year to do

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another survey to get feedback
from folks in a more specific

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way. Yeah. So one of our goals
in 2025 was definitely to do

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more of the show, as we call it,
on purpose.

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Doing the show on purpose. It's
a thing we talked about at this

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episode last year was how we
sometimes were successful at

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doing it on purpose, but not as
often as we think we should be

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or want to be. And so my
question for you is, you three,

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is did we do the show more on
purpose in 2025, which was our

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goal?

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Mike Rugnetta: Yes. I think so.
Indeed. I think that we could

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still do it even more on
purpose. Mhmm.

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But I think we did a better job
this year than we did last year.

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Yeah. Yeah. So just for the
audience, like, let's talk a

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little bit about maybe what that
feels like. Like, when we're not

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doing the show on purpose, what
that means is that we're, like,

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just trying to get things in as
quickly as possible so that

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they're in so that we can
publish a show.

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And that's not to say that those
things don't have we don't have

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standards for those things or
that we don't want them to be

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good. It just means that we get
to be slightly less intentional

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about those things because we
don't have the time or

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resources. And doing the show on
purpose means, like, we are able

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to work with intention, and we
are able to put something out

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and be like, this might not have
everything we wanted in it, but

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it's got everything in it that
we knew we could fit in the time

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frame we had to work on it.
Yeah. And so when it's when it's

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when you were when we're not
working on purpose, things go

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out and we may really like those
things, but we might like them

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kind of like in spite of how
they came together.

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Mhmm. Or we might sort of be
relying on luck a little bit

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00:11:25,785 --> 00:11:27,305
more than we would like to.

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Georgia Hampton: Big time.

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. And so the
idea is that we are we are

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always, even when we are
strapped for time or resources,

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trying to work with as much
intention as we can.

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Georgia Hampton: And I think we
did a good job of that this

251
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year. I think there's always
room for improvement, but I

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definitely think it was an
improvement.

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Hans Buetow: Yeah.

254
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:44,230
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I do
honestly think a part of that is

255
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:47,750
that the show was put into an
existential crisis because of

256
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the loss of our client work, but
the loss of our client work does

257
00:11:50,655 --> 00:11:53,855
allow us to work with more
intention because we are not

258
00:11:53,935 --> 00:11:57,055
saddled with tons of client
work.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. I

260
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Hans Buetow: think that's a
really good transition for us,

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00:12:00,415 --> 00:12:04,840
Mike, because let's talk a
little bit about the details of

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what all this means. Feelings
are great, but what's the what's

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the brass tacks here? So let's
talk those dirty details and

264
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what those details mean for the
future of the show. And spoiler

265
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,405
on this, There's changes that
come in.

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Georgia Hampton: Mhmm. But
first, there's ads that come in.

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00:12:26,605 --> 00:12:31,085
Jason Oberholtzer: Welcome back.
Thank you for participating in

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00:12:31,085 --> 00:12:35,480
the very numbers I'm about to
talk about. We don't

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Mike Rugnetta: wanna say that
our audience is nothing but a

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number to us, but you are
definitely at least part, in

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00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,480
part, a number We, to

272
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,640
Jason Oberholtzer: by the
numbers, I think had a good year

273
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last year, and I can prove it
because that's what you use

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numbers to do. First off, how
many people listen to this show?

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Great question. We believe that
we had 226,000 total listens

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last year. Now why do I say we
believe?

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Because this is podcast metrics
and literally anything is

278
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,200
possible. You have to know this
about podcasting. Every number

279
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:14,185
is a lie. Yep. And yet, this is
the number we're going with.

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Hans Buetow: There's also the
added caveat this year that

281
00:13:16,905 --> 00:13:20,505
because we switched to
Radiotopia in March, we had to

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switch platforms that we publish
on, which means our numbers

283
00:13:25,710 --> 00:13:28,830
metrics change because everybody
measures just slightly

284
00:13:28,830 --> 00:13:32,910
differently, and we're not sure,
like, during that period of

285
00:13:32,910 --> 00:13:36,110
transition, how many are
duplicated or not duplicated. So

286
00:13:36,110 --> 00:13:38,990
we did some really what we think
is the best math to get this,

287
00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:41,645
but, you know, it's it's always
a question mark for us. We take

288
00:13:41,645 --> 00:13:47,165
it roughly. Know that this is
about 226,000 listens in 2025.

289
00:13:47,325 --> 00:13:50,285
Jason Oberholtzer: So how does
226,000 listeners stack up to

290
00:13:50,285 --> 00:13:57,620
our first year, 2,024? Well,
that is 9,000 more listeners

291
00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:58,980
than the preceding year.

292
00:13:59,060 --> 00:14:02,180
Mike Rugnetta: So like nine nine
thousand more individual

293
00:14:02,180 --> 00:14:02,980
downloads.

294
00:14:02,980 --> 00:14:06,975
Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. Yes. And
I think that that number is a

295
00:14:06,975 --> 00:14:10,815
lot better than it initially
looks and I will tell you why

296
00:14:11,375 --> 00:14:12,255
later.

297
00:14:12,415 --> 00:14:13,375
Georgia Hampton: Okay. Alright.
Yeah.

298
00:14:13,375 --> 00:14:14,255
Mike Rugnetta: So tell me why.

299
00:14:14,255 --> 00:14:16,575
Jason Oberholtzer: But for now,
know that we had more listens

300
00:14:16,575 --> 00:14:18,095
this year. We grew a little bit.

301
00:14:18,095 --> 00:14:20,015
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I wanna
have grown more but I'm excited

302
00:14:20,015 --> 00:14:22,310
to hear why I should shut my
mouth. Yeah.

303
00:14:24,070 --> 00:14:26,230
Jason Oberholtzer: Shut your
mouth and get me that coffee.

304
00:14:27,510 --> 00:14:30,070
One other thing that people who
listened to this state of the

305
00:14:30,070 --> 00:14:33,430
podcast last year might recall
is that we have an incredibly

306
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:37,315
large amount of international
listeners. And this year, that

307
00:14:37,315 --> 00:14:43,635
only became more true. 35% of
the IP addresses we can track as

308
00:14:43,635 --> 00:14:48,675
listeners are international,
which is 5% more than last year.

309
00:14:48,675 --> 00:14:49,620
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. That's
okay,

310
00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:50,580
Jason Oberholtzer: that seems
crazy.

311
00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:52,340
Georgia Hampton: Right? Been
wild to me.

312
00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:54,100
Jason Oberholtzer: I love this
especially because one of our

313
00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:57,380
initial concerns going into this
is that we'd not be too American

314
00:14:57,380 --> 00:15:01,060
centric when we talk about the
Internet and try to acknowledge

315
00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:05,225
that it is a global service. And
I think this hopefully points to

316
00:15:05,225 --> 00:15:07,545
some success in that regard.

317
00:15:07,625 --> 00:15:10,025
Hans Buetow: Yeah. And we have
some cool episodes coming up

318
00:15:10,025 --> 00:15:12,825
that are from international
spaces talking about the

319
00:15:12,825 --> 00:15:15,145
Internet in a couple of
different places that are really

320
00:15:15,145 --> 00:15:19,710
exciting. So Yeah. You know, we
hope that this makes everybody,

321
00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:22,110
that 35% of you who are not in
The United States, feel very

322
00:15:22,110 --> 00:15:24,030
included. I mean, apparently you
are because you're listening,

323
00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:24,990
and we really appreciate that.

324
00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:25,950
It's very exciting.

325
00:15:26,030 --> 00:15:29,550
Jason Oberholtzer: We really do.
Hans, do you have the list of

326
00:15:29,870 --> 00:15:32,190
countries that listen to us the
most handy?

327
00:15:32,575 --> 00:15:36,175
Mike Rugnetta: One imagines it's
the it's the top four, like,

328
00:15:36,175 --> 00:15:40,015
English speaking. So it's gonna
be Us, Canada, The UK, and

329
00:15:40,015 --> 00:15:43,855
Australia followed, I would
guess, maybe a Brazil or a

330
00:15:43,855 --> 00:15:44,335
Germany.

331
00:15:44,335 --> 00:15:47,840
Hans Buetow: You're you're very,
very close. But there's a couple

332
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,080
of those that are out of order.
So, of course, United States is

333
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,600
first by 65%.

334
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,640
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Fair
margin. Yeah.

335
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,760
Hans Buetow: Yes. Then Canada,
yes, our dear neighbors to the

336
00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,595
north. United Kingdom, nailed
it, then Germany. That's right.

337
00:16:00,595 --> 00:16:02,435
Mike Rugnetta: So that was the
thing that we discussed most

338
00:16:02,435 --> 00:16:02,835
recently.

339
00:16:02,835 --> 00:16:06,035
Hans Buetow: Yep. More Germans
by almost double from

340
00:16:06,035 --> 00:16:08,035
Australians who were the next
one after that.

341
00:16:08,115 --> 00:16:08,675
Jason Oberholtzer: Who are

342
00:16:08,675 --> 00:16:11,955
Hans Buetow: then double again
from The Netherlands. And you

343
00:16:11,955 --> 00:16:12,835
know who beat Brazil?

344
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,160
Jason Oberholtzer: Xi Jinping.

345
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,160
Hans Buetow: Jinping
specifically. Just himself

346
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:19,280
listened to our

347
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,080
Jason Oberholtzer: show Okay.

348
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,280
Georgia Hampton: Thousands and
thousands of times. Huge fan.

349
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:24,160
No.

350
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:30,445
Hans Buetow: Jason's favorite
fan country. What? Wait. France.

351
00:16:30,925 --> 00:16:31,965
Jason Oberholtzer: No way.

352
00:16:31,965 --> 00:16:34,205
Mike Rugnetta: Beat Brazil? Beat
Brazil.

353
00:16:34,205 --> 00:16:36,205
Jason Oberholtzer: I've been
wrong this whole time, France.

354
00:16:36,525 --> 00:16:40,205
Soccer blue. My favorite country
in the world, France. You did

355
00:16:40,205 --> 00:16:41,200
it. You're back.

356
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,000
I just had to give you a little
bit of tough love for the whole

357
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,040
calendar year because last year
you weren't listening and this

358
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,480
is what this is what they like.
They like a little bit of the

359
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,440
harshness.

360
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,455
Georgia Hampton: Through reverse
psychology, by next year, we

361
00:16:54,455 --> 00:16:56,935
will be the number one podcast
in France.

362
00:16:56,935 --> 00:16:59,575
Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. That's
right. Should double down.

363
00:16:59,575 --> 00:17:02,935
Words. France, I'm still
disappointed.

364
00:17:02,935 --> 00:17:06,215
Well, that's all very exciting.
Now let's break this number down

365
00:17:06,215 --> 00:17:11,060
a little bit more. So by our
best estimates, what our

366
00:17:11,060 --> 00:17:13,860
listenership number means is
that per episode, we get about

367
00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:18,580
four to 8,000 listeners on any
given normal drop, averaging out

368
00:17:18,580 --> 00:17:25,305
to, like, 6,600 listeners per
episode, which is a bit more

369
00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:28,345
than we were averaging out to
last year, certainly.

370
00:17:28,665 --> 00:17:31,385
Mike Rugnetta: I would say that
the if my memory serves, the

371
00:17:31,385 --> 00:17:37,785
increase in that number seems to
outpace the overall total

372
00:17:37,785 --> 00:17:39,625
listens, which seems strange.

373
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,040
Hans Buetow: Yeah. I think we
did more bonus episodes this

374
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,520
year.

375
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,640
Jason Oberholtzer: Oh. Yeah.
Okay. And this is still not why

376
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:52,080
I think that that 9,000 listener
gain we got over last year is a

377
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,425
better number than you think it
is. Okay.

378
00:17:54,425 --> 00:17:56,345
And I still refuse to tell you.
Okay.

379
00:17:56,345 --> 00:17:57,945
Georgia Hampton: Exciting.
Exciting.

380
00:17:57,945 --> 00:17:59,865
Mike Rugnetta: Next up. Suspense
is increasing.

381
00:17:59,865 --> 00:18:02,825
Jason Oberholtzer: Our biggest
episodes for the year. In March,

382
00:18:03,225 --> 00:18:05,785
we released an episode called
the hardest thing to do is

383
00:18:05,785 --> 00:18:08,960
nothing, which was our biggest
downloaded episode because that

384
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,560
is the first one we released
after announcing that we were

385
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,160
partnering with Radiotopia.

386
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,240
Mike Rugnetta: Hardest thing to
do is nothing was an episode

387
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,360
where Georgia did the no buy
challenge.

388
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:20,160
Georgia Hampton: I sure did.

389
00:18:20,695 --> 00:18:23,015
Mike Rugnetta: And I talked to
Mike Masnik about section two

390
00:18:23,015 --> 00:18:23,575
thirty.

391
00:18:23,575 --> 00:18:26,535
Hans Buetow: Yeah. Which is a
very always worth returning to.

392
00:18:26,535 --> 00:18:28,855
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Our
second most listened to episode

393
00:18:29,015 --> 00:18:33,495
was Any Rigid Idea About
Yourself Is A Prison featuring

394
00:18:33,495 --> 00:18:36,930
friend of the show, host of the
unraveling podcast from the

395
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:38,930
Brattleboro Retreat, Kurt White.

396
00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:41,170
Mike Rugnetta: And we had a
segment from a contributing

397
00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:44,690
producer that episode as well,
Young Naparc, about why LinkedIn

398
00:18:44,690 --> 00:18:50,050
is that way. Yeah. So yeah.
Sorry. Listen, we're trying to

399
00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:50,530
turn it off.

400
00:18:50,505 --> 00:18:52,025
We're trying to turn it off.

401
00:18:52,025 --> 00:18:54,745
Jason Oberholtzer: Our most
recent episode to have done

402
00:18:54,745 --> 00:18:59,305
bigger numbers than usually
expected is AI and new American

403
00:18:59,305 --> 00:19:02,505
fascism. Mhmm. So those are sort
of the bigger numbers about how

404
00:19:02,505 --> 00:19:05,145
our audience has grown over the
last year. I feel pretty great

405
00:19:05,145 --> 00:19:07,600
about all of this, honestly.
Here are some of the reasons

406
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,640
that I feel extra good about
last year.

407
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,080
The growth in our membership,
the people directly supporting

408
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,600
us both as free members who are
getting our newsletters and

409
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,160
staying abreast of all the
things we do and as paid members

410
00:19:22,285 --> 00:19:25,485
who are the reason we can make a
show at all, those numbers have

411
00:19:25,485 --> 00:19:33,405
gone up a lot this year. We have
an increase of a 135% year over

412
00:19:33,405 --> 00:19:38,860
year in membership and we now
have 889 members.

413
00:19:38,940 --> 00:19:41,580
Hans Buetow: Yeah. Unbelievable.
Oh my goodness.

414
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:42,780
Jason Oberholtzer: Now if you
think about this, like, big

415
00:19:42,780 --> 00:19:46,380
number that we started with,
like, four to 8,000 listeners

416
00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:50,615
per episode about, and do the
math on what percentage of that

417
00:19:50,615 --> 00:19:55,655
889 people is, it's a big.

418
00:19:55,655 --> 00:19:57,095
Mike Rugnetta: It's big. Yeah.

419
00:19:57,095 --> 00:19:59,975
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah.
In fact, it is so big that we

420
00:19:59,975 --> 00:20:03,660
have been told we are over
indexing on loyalty, which is a

421
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:08,300
cool business way to say that
you guys fucking rule. Yeah.

422
00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:11,660
Mike Rugnetta: We're in meetings
where people are like, people

423
00:20:12,460 --> 00:20:14,140
really like your show?

424
00:20:16,475 --> 00:20:18,715
Jason Oberholtzer: And to that
end, our membership increased by

425
00:20:18,715 --> 00:20:24,235
a 135, but our paying members
increased by 303%.

426
00:20:24,315 --> 00:20:24,875
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. They

427
00:20:24,875 --> 00:20:27,755
Hans Buetow: have 613

428
00:20:27,755 --> 00:20:31,410
Jason Oberholtzer: paying
members. Thank you. Incredible.

429
00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:32,130
Hans Buetow: Thank you.

430
00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:34,850
Mike Rugnetta: Literally, the
the reason the show exists.

431
00:20:34,850 --> 00:20:35,010
Yeah.

432
00:20:35,010 --> 00:20:35,570
Georgia Hampton: It's true.

433
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:36,770
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. So what
did that all amount to

434
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:40,450
financially? This is where take
out your calculators here. This

435
00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:45,625
is where we get down to hard
maths. Last year, we made

436
00:20:46,185 --> 00:20:49,465
$40,000 from members.

437
00:20:49,465 --> 00:20:56,830
To be exact, $40,111.52 from our
members. In addition, we made

438
00:20:56,830 --> 00:21:01,150
almost $4,000 from making t
shirts. Yay. And let me tell

439
00:21:01,150 --> 00:21:04,750
you, this is just gross revenue.
So when I say we made that much

440
00:21:04,750 --> 00:21:08,350
money on t shirts, we made $0 on
t Yeah.

441
00:21:10,115 --> 00:21:11,075
Mike Rugnetta: If we also, like,

442
00:21:11,075 --> 00:21:13,075
Georgia Hampton: if we include
Jason's time in fulfillment, I

443
00:21:13,075 --> 00:21:15,395
think we probably lost money.
Yeah. Yeah.

444
00:21:15,875 --> 00:21:18,355
Jason Oberholtzer: Well as
paying two designers to make the

445
00:21:18,355 --> 00:21:21,315
t shirts, paying an amazing
printer to print them out.

446
00:21:21,315 --> 00:21:23,330
Hans Buetow: We look so good.

447
00:21:23,570 --> 00:21:24,050
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah.

448
00:21:24,050 --> 00:21:26,210
Mike Rugnetta: So I mean, they
are the best. They are some of

449
00:21:26,210 --> 00:21:28,450
the best shirts that I own.
They're so Yeah.

450
00:21:28,450 --> 00:21:30,610
Jason Oberholtzer: They're
amazing. And it's worth it. It's

451
00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:34,210
it was fun as hell and now we
get to wear these t shirts. So

452
00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:36,965
are we gonna do more t shirts in
the future even though they

453
00:21:36,965 --> 00:21:38,725
amounts to $0 at the end?

454
00:21:38,885 --> 00:21:40,805
Georgia Hampton: Absolutely.
Yeah. Definitely. For sure.

455
00:21:40,805 --> 00:21:44,165
Mike Rugnetta: Can I just
sidebar that my mom bought the

456
00:21:44,165 --> 00:21:47,685
punk design and she, like, wears
it out when she goes to, like,

457
00:21:47,685 --> 00:21:48,485
her pottery studio?

458
00:21:50,380 --> 00:21:50,940
Georgia Hampton: Yes.

459
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:53,340
Hans Buetow: I love it.

460
00:21:53,340 --> 00:21:55,500
Georgia Hampton: Does your mom
need a shirt for the pottery

461
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:59,260
studio? Come to never post.

462
00:21:59,260 --> 00:22:00,780
Jason Oberholtzer: And one last
note on the t shirts.

463
00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:05,895
International t shirt desirers,
they're on their way. We had to

464
00:22:05,895 --> 00:22:06,855
figure it out.

465
00:22:06,935 --> 00:22:09,255
Mike Rugnetta: I think yeah. We
basically just don't want them

466
00:22:09,255 --> 00:22:11,895
to show up and then to also have
them show up with someone

467
00:22:11,895 --> 00:22:13,815
requesting lots of money from
you.

468
00:22:13,815 --> 00:22:17,600
Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. So are
on their way. I promise. And

469
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:24,880
then the final piece of the pie
here, $7,500 in ad revenue. So

470
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,800
altogether, that means that we
made for this year, gross

471
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:35,755
revenue, $51,594.79.

472
00:22:35,915 --> 00:22:36,315
Oh.

473
00:22:36,315 --> 00:22:37,515
Mike Rugnetta: That's pretty
good. That's not nothing.

474
00:22:37,515 --> 00:22:39,675
Hans Buetow: That's not nothing.
It's a big improvement. Big

475
00:22:39,675 --> 00:22:41,115
improvement on 2024.

476
00:22:41,115 --> 00:22:43,035
Jason Oberholtzer: Right. It is
a big improvement over 2024

477
00:22:43,035 --> 00:22:48,190
because in 2024, the only money
we made was from our dear

478
00:22:48,190 --> 00:22:51,630
founding members who showed up
for the first year for us. And

479
00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:56,190
across the whole membership
base, made $14,000 and some

480
00:22:56,190 --> 00:22:58,270
change there. So we have added

481
00:23:01,945 --> 00:23:04,025
Mike Rugnetta: Go ahead and just
do that in your head right now.

482
00:23:07,465 --> 00:23:09,785
Jason Oberholtzer: 37 ish
thousand dollars.

483
00:23:10,425 --> 00:23:11,800
Mike Rugnetta: Thought we're
gonna have to turn you off and

484
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:12,200
on again.

485
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,200
Georgia Hampton: Hans, you're
gonna cut the, like, twenty

486
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,760
minutes that that took for Jason
to do the math. Right?

487
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:17,240
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah.

488
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,200
Hans Buetow: Yeah. I'll I'll
drastically re breathe the

489
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,160
entire time.

490
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,735
Georgia Hampton: It was really
intense. He was crying. It was

491
00:23:23,735 --> 00:23:25,255
pretty rough. Wow.

492
00:23:26,135 --> 00:23:29,335
Jason Oberholtzer: We're all
doing our best. So where did

493
00:23:29,335 --> 00:23:32,455
that money go to? That money
went to contributing producers

494
00:23:32,455 --> 00:23:35,175
like it always does. We had some
great contributing producers

495
00:23:35,175 --> 00:23:38,430
this year. Tori Dominguez Peak,
of course, delivering more

496
00:23:38,430 --> 00:23:39,230
amazing segments.

497
00:23:39,230 --> 00:23:42,430
Yagna Park in the
aforementioned, why is LinkedIn

498
00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:46,190
like that segment? Melissa
Locker who talked about Oasis

499
00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:50,430
fan clubs with us and friend of
the show, Meagal Jenardin

500
00:23:50,430 --> 00:23:54,345
talking about her own struggles
with attention. So we had

501
00:23:54,345 --> 00:23:58,425
brilliant contributor pieces, we
made t shirts,

502
00:23:59,305 --> 00:24:00,105
Georgia Hampton: and

503
00:24:02,105 --> 00:24:05,305
Jason Oberholtzer: we maintained
all of the softwares as a

504
00:24:05,305 --> 00:24:08,345
service that we know and love so
much. All of our hosting and

505
00:24:08,345 --> 00:24:11,600
production tools, everything we
have to subscribe to.

506
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,080
Hans Buetow: We need to make
sure we have lots of logins for

507
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:14,720
Georgia.

508
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:15,360
Mike Rugnetta: Yes. It's

509
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,200
Georgia Hampton: true. I need to
be able to log in.

510
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,520
Jason Oberholtzer: And then
finally what we did is we

511
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,680
basically refilled the coffers
off of the ad dollars we had

512
00:24:25,445 --> 00:24:28,165
spent in 2024.

513
00:24:28,245 --> 00:24:30,245
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. That's what
I was gonna ask, Jason. My

514
00:24:30,245 --> 00:24:32,805
impression is that also a fair
amount of this went towards

515
00:24:32,805 --> 00:24:37,205
recouping charts and leisure's
costs over the first year, which

516
00:24:37,205 --> 00:24:40,165
were, let's say, not
insignificant.

517
00:24:40,165 --> 00:24:40,325
Hans Buetow: Yeah.

518
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,480
Jason Oberholtzer: So the first
year, we spent, I think, around

519
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,800
$20,000 on ads. And we spent
probably as much on PR and other

520
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:58,145
functions to launch the show.
Now think about this. This is

521
00:24:58,145 --> 00:25:01,985
where I reveal the prestige. Oh.

522
00:25:01,985 --> 00:25:08,225
If in 2024, we spent, let's call
it $40,000 of marketing budget

523
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:19,120
to get 217,000 listens. And in
2025, we spent $0 to get 226,000

524
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:25,095
listens. Does that 9,000
listener increase feel like a

525
00:25:25,095 --> 00:25:28,375
$40,000 worth of investment
increase?

526
00:25:29,735 --> 00:25:30,695
Mike Rugnetta: The prestige.

527
00:25:31,175 --> 00:25:32,135
Georgia Hampton: I see what
you're saying.

528
00:25:32,135 --> 00:25:34,055
Jason Oberholtzer: This is
really good because this is the

529
00:25:34,055 --> 00:25:38,150
year we did not market. We
established a relationship with

530
00:25:38,150 --> 00:25:39,110
Radiotopia.

531
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:39,350
Georgia Hampton: They have

532
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:41,350
Jason Oberholtzer: helped us
immeasurably on this. We have

533
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:45,750
engaged our own listeners and
fans and supporters to help us

534
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:49,670
get the word out. We have sent
out newsletters. We have

535
00:25:49,670 --> 00:25:53,025
collaborated with other
programs, but we have not spent

536
00:25:53,025 --> 00:25:56,785
any of this money in direct
marketing like we did last year

537
00:25:56,785 --> 00:26:01,105
on Pocket Cast and Overcast and
all the other casts that you

538
00:26:01,105 --> 00:26:04,145
could do this on, and yet we
have more listeners than last

539
00:26:04,145 --> 00:26:07,810
year. Entirely owned by the
things we made, not the money we

540
00:26:07,810 --> 00:26:08,610
sent out.

541
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:12,050
So I think that is actually
incredible.

542
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:14,530
Mike Rugnetta: That's organic
growth as you call it in the

543
00:26:14,530 --> 00:26:15,410
business. Yeah. Mhmm.

544
00:26:15,410 --> 00:26:18,290
Jason Oberholtzer: And that's
like a huge part of the runway

545
00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:22,185
of this show is can it persist
organically without that

546
00:26:22,185 --> 00:26:25,065
marketing budget engine pushing
on it? And this was the year we

547
00:26:25,065 --> 00:26:28,265
wanted to find out, and this is
the year I believe we found out

548
00:26:28,265 --> 00:26:30,585
that, yes, that this is where we
are.

549
00:26:30,585 --> 00:26:33,465
Hans Buetow: So Jason, to
summarize, 300% growth in

550
00:26:33,465 --> 00:26:33,785
members

551
00:26:34,025 --> 00:26:34,265
Jason Oberholtzer: Yes.

552
00:26:34,580 --> 00:26:37,060
Hans Buetow: Two big membership
drives, distribution deal. We

553
00:26:37,060 --> 00:26:41,460
didn't spend money on the things
on the marketing. We, you know,

554
00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:44,900
brought in more gross, all that
sort of stuff. Did we do it? Did

555
00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:45,700
we hit our big goal?

556
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:49,620
Our financial goals that we had
set for 2025, which is to become

557
00:26:49,905 --> 00:26:50,945
self sustaining.

558
00:26:51,185 --> 00:26:55,505
Jason Oberholtzer: Everyone all
at once. One, two, three. No.

559
00:26:59,425 --> 00:27:01,905
Mike Rugnetta: I I will be the
outside voice. But hold on. You

560
00:27:02,065 --> 00:27:04,305
we made $50,000.

561
00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:05,530
Hans Buetow: Fantastic.

562
00:27:05,610 --> 00:27:07,290
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Another
way to think about this is I

563
00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:12,890
think we have organically grown
to a size that is a fairly

564
00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:18,335
standard hobby podcast size for
a person or two. And for if you

565
00:27:18,335 --> 00:27:20,255
were making a podcast as a
person or two and you got to

566
00:27:20,255 --> 00:27:23,935
this size, in two years, you
would be thrilled and you would

567
00:27:23,935 --> 00:27:26,975
probably be able to devote
around half of your time to this

568
00:27:27,055 --> 00:27:30,760
and feel sufficiently
remunerated for that time. But

569
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,640
our aspiration is to be
something larger and to be that

570
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,160
we need to be the size of team
that we are. And we need to use

571
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,400
the budget that we have to have
contributors come in and work

572
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,120
with other producers and
maintain the relationships that

573
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:44,440
we have.

574
00:27:44,565 --> 00:27:47,125
And so there's more we need to
do with this. Yeah. And so we

575
00:27:47,125 --> 00:27:51,045
need to figure out ways that our
listener base can also grow

576
00:27:51,045 --> 00:27:54,325
alongside us and support the
rest of the growth that we need

577
00:27:54,325 --> 00:27:57,445
to do. And yet, I think we
should acknowledge this is like

578
00:27:57,445 --> 00:28:01,800
a pretty incredible achievement
for a show no matter how many

579
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,400
people go into the making of it,
that we have achieved a sense of

580
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,440
stability at a reasonable size
for a audio program in a couple

581
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,480
of the weirdest years to be an
independent audio program Yeah.

582
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:14,200
There have ever been.

583
00:28:15,215 --> 00:28:18,575
Mike Rugnetta: So I think the
upshot in a lot of this is that

584
00:28:18,575 --> 00:28:21,855
while the show is growing and
we're feeling good about its

585
00:28:21,855 --> 00:28:25,215
growth, we're still not making
something that, like, barring

586
00:28:25,215 --> 00:28:29,775
various circumstances, we'll
definitely continue to be around

587
00:28:29,775 --> 00:28:33,780
for, you know, the next two to
five years. Like, we are

588
00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:36,020
constantly I mean, we have these
meetings. Like, we've had them

589
00:28:36,020 --> 00:28:39,140
as recently as a couple weeks
ago where it's like, are we

590
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:42,980
going to keep making the show?
And we all continually agree,

591
00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:46,975
like, yes. It's hard, but we
will continue to make the show.

592
00:28:47,295 --> 00:28:51,935
And so, you know, in looking
forward to the next year, we're

593
00:28:51,935 --> 00:28:56,975
looking at 2026 to 2027. Like,
what do we need? And, like, in

594
00:28:56,975 --> 00:28:59,810
one sense, the answer is really
simple. We just need more money,

595
00:28:59,810 --> 00:29:02,130
more supporters, more members,
more listeners, like, more of

596
00:29:02,130 --> 00:29:05,410
everything. And, like, if we
don't get those things, like,

597
00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:06,850
does the show still exist?

598
00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:11,490
And that's just as much a
question now as it has been for

599
00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:16,505
all of the show's existence.
There's nothing in our rate of

600
00:29:16,505 --> 00:29:19,385
growth or our circumstances at
the moment that let us say,

601
00:29:19,385 --> 00:29:22,505
like, yeah, we're definitely
like, we're crushing it. We're

602
00:29:22,505 --> 00:29:26,585
not going anywhere. This is easy
to do. And, like, we are

603
00:29:26,585 --> 00:29:28,585
definitely gonna be able to keep
doing it indefinitely.

604
00:29:30,090 --> 00:29:33,690
You know? I think in a lot of
ways, that puts us in a similar

605
00:29:33,690 --> 00:29:37,450
boat to probably a lot of things
online that you like and listen

606
00:29:37,450 --> 00:29:41,930
to and watch and enjoy. It's a
time that's really, especially

607
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:45,405
in media, defined by precarity.

608
00:29:45,405 --> 00:29:49,085
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Mhmm.
Yeah. It is wild how net how

609
00:29:49,085 --> 00:29:53,965
many of the imprimatures of
success we have walked through

610
00:29:53,965 --> 00:29:58,410
and then the the material
returns on them.

611
00:29:58,410 --> 00:30:00,330
Mike Rugnetta: I have friends I
have friends who are like, oh my

612
00:30:00,330 --> 00:30:03,210
god. How's the show going? It
seems like it's doing really

613
00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:07,130
well. And and I get to be like,
well, we've won a bunch of

614
00:30:07,130 --> 00:30:07,610
awards.

615
00:30:09,525 --> 00:30:10,805
Hans Buetow: We have a good
time.

616
00:30:10,805 --> 00:30:13,125
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Which,

617
00:30:13,125 --> 00:30:14,885
Mike Rugnetta: like, I don't
wanna seem ingrateful

618
00:30:15,045 --> 00:30:15,205
Hans Buetow: Yeah.

619
00:30:15,285 --> 00:30:19,125
Mike Rugnetta: For the awards. I
love the awards. Love the

620
00:30:19,125 --> 00:30:19,845
recognition.

621
00:30:19,845 --> 00:30:21,285
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah.
This is the environment right

622
00:30:21,285 --> 00:30:24,085
now where, like, you can win a
lot of awards. You can have a

623
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,720
wonderful dedicated audience.
You can make a show that you

624
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,600
love and that people respond to,
and it is still not enough.

625
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Georgia Hampton: And A Webby
doesn't pay your rent.

626
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,200
Mike Rugnetta: As a matter of
fact, a Webby costs you money.

627
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:38,360
Yeah.

628
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,395
Georgia Hampton: It actually
super does.

629
00:30:40,555 --> 00:30:44,875
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. And so
we we should, and I am grateful

630
00:30:44,875 --> 00:30:48,235
for all of the the luck and the
good breaks and everything else

631
00:30:48,235 --> 00:30:51,995
that we have had so far. And,
like, if anything at Omi

632
00:30:51,995 --> 00:30:57,540
furthers my sense of, like,
solidarity and despair at how

633
00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:59,780
difficult it is to be making
anything right now for

634
00:30:59,780 --> 00:31:01,220
everybody. For real. Yeah.

635
00:31:01,220 --> 00:31:03,300
If we had done all of these
things ten years ago, we would

636
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:08,660
not be worried. And I'm sorry
everyone's worried out there,

637
00:31:09,405 --> 00:31:11,165
but I am too. So

638
00:31:11,965 --> 00:31:14,445
Mike Rugnetta: speaking of,
like, the people who listen to

639
00:31:14,445 --> 00:31:18,445
their show and their habits and
what they're interested in, you

640
00:31:18,445 --> 00:31:22,520
two, Jason and Hans, were in a
really interesting meeting with

641
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,560
the, like, audience and
analytics people at Radiotopia

642
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,480
where they talked they, like,
really did some divining of the

643
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,960
analytics and the numbers and
said some really interesting

644
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,920
things. So I would like can you
guys share some of that with the

645
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:35,240
audience?

646
00:31:35,705 --> 00:31:36,265
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. They

647
00:31:37,145 --> 00:31:40,585
Hans Buetow: with our need to
grow, helped us understand that

648
00:31:40,585 --> 00:31:44,905
we are not really growing at a
rate that we're talking about.

649
00:31:45,065 --> 00:31:49,465
And they said, like Jason said
earlier, we over index on loyal.

650
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:56,200
So we have super duper
consistent numbers. You freaks

651
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,040
love to download an episode when
it comes out.

652
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,320
Mike Rugnetta: And we download
downloads. Oh, they would love

653
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,000
to download those shit

654
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,105
Hans Buetow: goes for
downloading.

655
00:32:06,105 --> 00:32:06,345
Georgia Hampton: The show

656
00:32:06,345 --> 00:32:08,505
Hans Buetow: is called never
post, not never download.

657
00:32:08,505 --> 00:32:12,345
Georgia Hampton: Always
download. And we love you for

658
00:32:12,505 --> 00:32:12,905
like, it

659
00:32:12,905 --> 00:32:15,625
Hans Buetow: is it's the reason
that we can have the membership

660
00:32:15,625 --> 00:32:17,785
numbers that we do is because
there's no No. Guild team in

661
00:32:18,745 --> 00:32:19,625
Georgia Hampton: It's the best.

662
00:32:20,830 --> 00:32:24,430
Hans Buetow: But we need that,
plus we need a bunch of other

663
00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:26,590
stuff that they told us we don't
have. One of the things that

664
00:32:26,590 --> 00:32:28,830
they said that we don't really
get, which really, really

665
00:32:28,830 --> 00:32:32,510
surprised them was any
meaningful back catalog

666
00:32:32,510 --> 00:32:36,045
listening. Mhmm. Which means no
one is going back and listening

667
00:32:36,045 --> 00:32:40,125
to stuff we have already done.
They're really just consuming

668
00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:44,525
the the right now of things, the
most recent episodes, despite us

669
00:32:44,765 --> 00:32:48,440
doing mostly evergreen content
that could be consumed kind of

670
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,000
at any time.

671
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,360
People are not going back to it.

672
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,040
Mike Rugnetta: My impression
after you guys left that meeting

673
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,680
and you described it to us was
that as weird as it is, the the

674
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,800
degree to which it is weird that
people will seemingly the bulk

675
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:08,095
of our audience will download
every episode when it's dropped.

676
00:33:08,575 --> 00:33:13,615
It is weird how little movement
there is in older episodes once

677
00:33:13,615 --> 00:33:14,495
they've dropped.

678
00:33:14,495 --> 00:33:14,735
Hans Buetow: Yeah.

679
00:33:15,140 --> 00:33:16,980
Jason Oberholtzer: I have a
theory about this behavior that

680
00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:21,700
I've been calling the New Yorker
theory of content consumption.

681
00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:25,460
Georgia Hampton: TM. TM.

682
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:28,815
Jason Oberholtzer: Picture this.
A fresh New Yorker comes in the

683
00:33:28,815 --> 00:33:30,255
mail. Oh, boy.

684
00:33:32,175 --> 00:33:34,095
Georgia Hampton: Could you
squeal with glee?

685
00:33:34,175 --> 00:33:37,535
Jason Oberholtzer: I'm gonna
open that bad boy up, and I sure

686
00:33:37,535 --> 00:33:41,310
do. And I sit down at my couch,
and I open up my coffee table,

687
00:33:41,310 --> 00:33:43,070
and I start reading to that New
Yorker.

688
00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:45,150
Georgia Hampton: Open up coffee
table.

689
00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:49,070
Hans Buetow: Jason. This

690
00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:49,630
Jason Oberholtzer: is why you

691
00:33:49,630 --> 00:33:49,950
Georgia Hampton: have trouble.

692
00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:52,750
Jason Oberholtzer: Where I keep
my readers, and I take my

693
00:33:52,750 --> 00:33:55,795
reading glasses out of the
coffee table, put them on my

694
00:33:55,795 --> 00:34:01,875
face, and then I open up New
Yorker the magazine. And I start

695
00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:04,355
reading and boy, I'm having a
good time. And then I get up

696
00:34:04,355 --> 00:34:06,835
there, oh, the first big story
is about to start. I get a

697
00:34:06,835 --> 00:34:10,330
couple pages in and then, oh,
someone's calling me on my

698
00:34:10,330 --> 00:34:12,090
phone. I gotta talk to somebody.

699
00:34:12,890 --> 00:34:15,770
It's Mike and he wants to talk
about esoteric noise music.

700
00:34:15,770 --> 00:34:20,970
Well, there it goes the day. And
the New Yorker sits there on my

701
00:34:20,970 --> 00:34:23,290
coffee table, which I haven't
even shut.

702
00:34:26,105 --> 00:34:28,105
Hans Buetow: You've got the best
of intentions, you wanna return.

703
00:34:28,105 --> 00:34:30,905
Jason Oberholtzer: I want you so
badly. But then it's almost

704
00:34:30,905 --> 00:34:33,145
dinner time, I gotta make
dinner. So next thing I

705
00:34:33,145 --> 00:34:35,385
Georgia Hampton: know I'm
calling again to talk

706
00:34:35,385 --> 00:34:36,025
Mike Rugnetta: about s

707
00:34:35,865 --> 00:34:37,990
Georgia Hampton: It's always
something. The music is only

708
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:40,985
getting noisier and less
diatonic. More esoteric. S

709
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:47,830
Chasing missed call list is just
me. It's just Mike every day.

710
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:50,870
Jason Oberholtzer: Next thing
you know, a whole dang week has

711
00:34:50,870 --> 00:34:53,575
passed, and I'm finally getting
ready to sit down and finish

712
00:34:53,575 --> 00:34:57,255
that beautiful New Yorker
article and what's this? A knock

713
00:34:57,255 --> 00:35:03,335
at the door? It's my mailman. He
says, Jason, great news. And I

714
00:35:03,335 --> 00:35:04,455
say, yes, Paul.

715
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,080
And he said, you're new New
Yorker. The magazine is here.

716
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,320
And I said, goddamn it. I'm so
excited. And I rested out of his

717
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,800
grubby little hands and slammed
the door on him.

718
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,680
And I go back to my coffee
table, which I have to reopen.

719
00:35:19,735 --> 00:35:22,615
Put my readers on, and start
digging into my new New Yorker

720
00:35:22,615 --> 00:35:26,455
sitting right on top of the old
one, which I never even had the

721
00:35:26,455 --> 00:35:27,655
time to finish.

722
00:35:27,975 --> 00:35:29,895
Hans Buetow: So that was the
analogy that Jason came up with

723
00:35:29,895 --> 00:35:32,775
in this meeting, which I think
is actually pretty apt, but it

724
00:35:32,775 --> 00:35:36,540
was a really eye opening meeting
for us. They put a thank you,

725
00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:39,260
Radiotopia, for putting that
much work into really helping us

726
00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:43,180
understand the numbers that are
happening. But it got it start

727
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:46,540
it kicked off this months long
conversation for us about we

728
00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:49,820
need to grow the show. We need
more folks. We need more money.

729
00:35:50,265 --> 00:35:54,745
We're having these specific
behaviors. How can we add to

730
00:35:54,745 --> 00:35:57,465
those specific behaviors with
the growth that we need?

731
00:35:57,465 --> 00:35:59,145
Mike Rugnetta: And actually, I
don't know that we mentioned it,

732
00:35:59,145 --> 00:36:03,010
but this is a very important
part of the puzzle. Audience, we

733
00:36:03,010 --> 00:36:06,210
love you. Yeah. We really,
really love you. We love that

734
00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:08,290
you listen to every episode.

735
00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:12,130
We love that you write in, that
you call us. You send us emails.

736
00:36:12,130 --> 00:36:15,250
You send us voicemails. Not a
one of you is finishing an

737
00:36:15,250 --> 00:36:15,570
episode.

738
00:36:17,145 --> 00:36:17,785
Hans Buetow: Did you how

739
00:36:17,785 --> 00:36:20,265
Mike Rugnetta: many of you know
that there's a poem at the end

740
00:36:20,265 --> 00:36:21,385
of every episode?

741
00:36:21,625 --> 00:36:24,265
Georgia Hampton: And there yeah.
There has been every time.

742
00:36:25,945 --> 00:36:28,505
Mike Rugnetta: So and we say
that that is not again, like,

743
00:36:28,505 --> 00:36:32,630
that's not a judgment. That's a
note for us. Yep. Right? And I'd

744
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:34,870
say this sort of half joking,
like, yes, there are a bunch of

745
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:37,110
you that actually do listen to a
100% of every episode.

746
00:36:37,110 --> 00:36:39,910
But percentage wise, of the
number of people who start an

747
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:44,165
episode, who download it, which
is huge, the number of people

748
00:36:44,165 --> 00:36:47,365
who are listening through to the
end of, let's say, the second

749
00:36:47,365 --> 00:36:51,925
segment, if we do a set if we do
two segments, is relatively low.

750
00:36:51,925 --> 00:36:54,805
And so that's a problem that we
need to solve. That is a problem

751
00:36:54,805 --> 00:36:58,085
with, as far as we see it, the
design of the format of the

752
00:36:58,085 --> 00:36:58,245
show.

753
00:36:58,870 --> 00:37:01,750
Hans Buetow: So we made some
decisions.

754
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:02,710
Georgia Hampton: Mhmm.

755
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:05,430
Hans Buetow: We are gonna change
things.

756
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:07,590
Jason Oberholtzer: We're buying
the New Yorker.

757
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:11,910
Georgia Hampton: Is that New
Yorker the magazine, Jason?

758
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:15,735
Jason Oberholtzer: I just need
40,000 more dollars, and I think

759
00:37:15,735 --> 00:37:17,015
they're gonna say yes.

760
00:37:17,415 --> 00:37:20,855
Georgia Hampton: How much could
New Yorker cost the entire

761
00:37:20,855 --> 00:37:23,415
company? So when we come back,

762
00:37:23,415 --> 00:37:26,055
Hans Buetow: let's talk about
it. Our plan for 2026, the stuff

763
00:37:26,055 --> 00:37:28,215
that you can expect to shift,
the stuff you can expect to stay

764
00:37:28,215 --> 00:37:30,590
the same, and how it all
relates.

765
00:37:36,350 --> 00:37:39,310
Mike Rugnetta: Alright. We're
back. So I think the headline

766
00:37:39,310 --> 00:37:44,085
here is that I think we're just
gonna be doing more of what the

767
00:37:44,085 --> 00:37:48,085
show already has been doing over
the last couple months. More.

768
00:37:48,085 --> 00:37:48,405
More.

769
00:37:48,405 --> 00:37:53,125
More. The Like, we're not we're
not actually going to change too

770
00:37:53,125 --> 00:37:57,190
much. We are just going to
acknowledge in a more official

771
00:37:57,190 --> 00:38:01,190
capacity what it seems like has
been working over the last

772
00:38:01,190 --> 00:38:06,390
quarter of a year. And that
means essentially uploading more

773
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:10,575
things that are just a segment
and sometimes even just a

774
00:38:10,575 --> 00:38:16,335
segment with no news. And so
we're just gonna do more of that

775
00:38:16,335 --> 00:38:19,535
because based upon our analytics
and based upon the feedback that

776
00:38:19,535 --> 00:38:22,175
we've been getting, it feels
like that's what people want.

777
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:25,830
People get excited when there's
a new Neverpost upload that

778
00:38:25,830 --> 00:38:29,910
shows up in their feed. They we
we get, like, all kinds of

779
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:32,950
emails and notes from people
being like, I love the show. If

780
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:36,710
a new Neverpost shows up, I will
stop a podcast that I'm

781
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:40,325
currently listening to in order
to listen to it, which is just

782
00:38:40,325 --> 00:38:43,765
like I mean, that's a massive
compliment. And so we just are

783
00:38:43,765 --> 00:38:47,605
gonna increase the frequency
with which that's done. That

784
00:38:47,605 --> 00:38:52,570
means overall that uploads will
be shorter, but there's gonna be

785
00:38:52,570 --> 00:38:53,450
more of them.

786
00:38:53,770 --> 00:38:57,690
Does that mean news is going
away? No. News I mean, we'll

787
00:38:57,690 --> 00:39:00,330
see. We're gonna be testing this
out over the next couple months

788
00:39:00,410 --> 00:39:03,050
to see, like, what works, but
the plan right now is that there

789
00:39:03,050 --> 00:39:09,605
will be one news episode per
month at least, possibly two,

790
00:39:09,925 --> 00:39:13,445
and that between those, you're
gonna get other uploads that are

791
00:39:13,445 --> 00:39:15,125
just classic segments.

792
00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:18,500
Hans Buetow: And I think this is
gonna be really good for folks

793
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:21,380
because it addresses another
problem that we had, which we

794
00:39:21,380 --> 00:39:24,180
actually demonstrated earlier in
this episode. When Jason was

795
00:39:24,180 --> 00:39:27,780
listing off the most popular
episodes of the year, all four

796
00:39:27,780 --> 00:39:31,675
of us had to go to the feed to
figure out what was on each of

797
00:39:31,675 --> 00:39:34,635
those episodes because we can't
even remember what we've

798
00:39:34,635 --> 00:39:37,195
published in any individual
episode, which means the

799
00:39:37,195 --> 00:39:39,595
discoverability is not high. We
think this is gonna make it much

800
00:39:39,595 --> 00:39:44,360
easier for you to find, share,
and remember where your favorite

801
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,280
episodes are so that you can get
back to them more easily, and

802
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,880
they become more useful in the
back catalog. But but Hans

803
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,445
Mike Rugnetta: Yes. Yes, Mike.
That's only true for episodes

804
00:39:55,445 --> 00:40:01,045
going forward. Right? What about
what about episodes from the

805
00:40:01,045 --> 00:40:04,405
back catalog that our audience
may have missed?

806
00:40:04,485 --> 00:40:05,685
What a good question.

807
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:10,390
Jason Oberholtzer: Wait a
second. What's that? Is there a

808
00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:13,590
knock at my door? Let me go get
it.

809
00:40:13,590 --> 00:40:14,310
Georgia Hampton: Paul's gotta

810
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:18,710
Jason Oberholtzer: go. Paul's
demanding to know what you're

811
00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:19,350
gonna say next.

812
00:40:20,075 --> 00:40:22,075
Hans Buetow: Boy, Jason, if only
we had an answer to that

813
00:40:22,075 --> 00:40:22,875
question. What do think?

814
00:40:22,875 --> 00:40:24,795
Georgia Hampton: Paul, calm
down. I'm I'm I'm getting right

815
00:40:24,795 --> 00:40:26,555
to it. He's waving the gun
around.

816
00:40:26,555 --> 00:40:30,955
Jason Oberholtzer: Baby, please
listen to me, Paul. So what

817
00:40:30,955 --> 00:40:34,990
we're gonna do, Paul, calm down,
is we are going to release old

818
00:40:34,990 --> 00:40:38,910
segments from the past two years
that have heretofore lived in

819
00:40:38,910 --> 00:40:41,470
the middle of a full never post
episode behind a bunch of

820
00:40:41,470 --> 00:40:44,510
minutes of news between
interstitials next to another

821
00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:48,190
segment, between that poem no
one bothers to stick around and

822
00:40:48,190 --> 00:40:53,705
listen to. Paul, calm down.
We're gonna bring them back in a

823
00:40:53,705 --> 00:40:56,505
timely fashion as they make
sense to the events of the day

824
00:40:56,505 --> 00:40:58,425
and as they feel good to bring
back. But we're gonna bring them

825
00:40:58,425 --> 00:41:02,185
back on their own, so they are
discoverable and shareable and

826
00:41:02,185 --> 00:41:04,600
you can actually instead of
saying like, oh, yeah.

827
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,240
I heard that in this great Never
Post episode a couple months

828
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:11,640
ago, that is some oblique title,
and I'm not sure exactly where

829
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,960
it is in that. You can just say,
oh, yeah. It's about this, and

830
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:14,840
it's called this, and

831
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:15,720
Hans Buetow: Here's a link.

832
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:16,040
Mike Rugnetta: A link.

833
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:16,360
Georgia Hampton: Yep.

834
00:41:16,455 --> 00:41:19,095
Mike Rugnetta: Right. There is
no reason for any of you to

835
00:41:19,095 --> 00:41:22,535
remember that Yungna Park's
segment about Yep. LinkedIn is

836
00:41:22,535 --> 00:41:26,375
in the episode that is titled
Any Rigid Idea About Yourself Is

837
00:41:26,375 --> 00:41:29,990
A Prison. Yep. Titled so for
Kurt's segment.

838
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:33,030
Yep. I and since we've been
thinking about making this

839
00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:37,350
change, I've talked to a number
of friends who make podcasts

840
00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:40,950
that are in segments. Like,
there's a sort of thing that

841
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:43,750
they do, and they do multiple of
that thing per show. And I'm

842
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:47,205
like, how do you solve the
titling and the metadata problem

843
00:41:47,205 --> 00:41:50,885
of, like, you know, you've got
something buried in the middle

844
00:41:50,885 --> 00:41:52,965
of an episode. You can only do
one title.

845
00:41:52,965 --> 00:41:55,285
How do you make it clear to
people who are looking for it

846
00:41:55,285 --> 00:41:57,870
later where it is? And every
single one of them was like, I

847
00:41:57,870 --> 00:41:59,710
don't we don't know. We have no
we have

848
00:42:00,830 --> 00:42:01,950
Georgia Hampton: no clue. Yeah.

849
00:42:01,950 --> 00:42:04,430
Mike Rugnetta: So it turns out
it turns out the right answer is

850
00:42:04,430 --> 00:42:07,310
maybe the simplest answer, which
is everything should just be

851
00:42:07,310 --> 00:42:13,315
uploaded by itself. Yeah. Yeah.
However so we all really love

852
00:42:13,395 --> 00:42:18,275
the Neverpost format of, like,
the magazine show. Mhmm.

853
00:42:18,275 --> 00:42:21,555
You've got the intro, the news,
a segment, the interstitials,

854
00:42:21,555 --> 00:42:23,795
like, this sort of, like,
packaged up thing.

855
00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:26,380
Hans Buetow: And clearly, the
people who listen also love it.

856
00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:27,180
Also love So,

857
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:31,100
Mike Rugnetta: Jason, is that
going to go away completely?

858
00:42:31,340 --> 00:42:34,700
Jason Oberholtzer: No. It is not
gonna go away completely. Here's

859
00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:37,855
another thing we learned from
the analytics. You love the

860
00:42:37,855 --> 00:42:41,215
news. You get falloffs every
time we transition to a new

861
00:42:41,215 --> 00:42:43,455
segment because that's just
natural listening behavior.

862
00:42:43,455 --> 00:42:44,495
We give you an opportunity

863
00:42:44,495 --> 00:42:45,535
Georgia Hampton: to put your
phone down and take

864
00:42:45,535 --> 00:42:47,535
Jason Oberholtzer: a break and
you do. But everyone likes the

865
00:42:47,535 --> 00:42:50,430
news. Everyone listens to it and
you download and listen to the

866
00:42:50,430 --> 00:42:53,070
show within moments of it coming
out. So there's something about

867
00:42:53,070 --> 00:42:56,590
the timeliness and the newsiness
of it is helpful. And we wanna

868
00:42:56,590 --> 00:42:59,870
preserve that and still give you
news episodes, not just

869
00:42:59,870 --> 00:43:01,710
disembodied segments all the
time.

870
00:43:02,430 --> 00:43:06,315
And those are the moments where
I think we are going to push

871
00:43:06,315 --> 00:43:10,875
into exploring more of the
classic Never format and some so

872
00:43:10,875 --> 00:43:13,675
if you think about, like, an
episode coming out at the end of

873
00:43:13,675 --> 00:43:16,155
a month that's going to dive
into what has happened to that

874
00:43:16,155 --> 00:43:20,430
month, I think that's largely
going to feel like Neverpost has

875
00:43:20,430 --> 00:43:23,150
always felt. We are going to try
to stretch and explore and

876
00:43:23,150 --> 00:43:25,950
figure out the most interesting
way to provide something that is

877
00:43:25,950 --> 00:43:29,630
newsy and relevant and
encapsulates the feeling of what

878
00:43:29,630 --> 00:43:34,235
a month has felt like for all of
us, and it's going to give you

879
00:43:34,235 --> 00:43:38,155
all of the magazine feel that we
also love about this format and

880
00:43:38,155 --> 00:43:41,195
we don't want to give up just
because we're releasing segments

881
00:43:41,195 --> 00:43:44,635
on their own so you can also
find them. We're gonna try to

882
00:43:44,635 --> 00:43:47,780
have our cake and eat it too.
Oh, Paul is losing his mind.

883
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:48,740
He's so happy about this.

884
00:43:48,740 --> 00:43:51,860
Paul, stop crying. I know,
buddy. We had a plan the whole

885
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:52,260
time.

886
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,700
Georgia Hampton: So some

887
00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:56,020
Mike Rugnetta: of that original
never post flavor will persist.

888
00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:59,220
And I think that this is, like I
think if you think about what

889
00:43:59,220 --> 00:44:03,755
we've been doing over the last
few months, like Hans's

890
00:44:03,755 --> 00:44:08,555
Minneapolis episode, Meigle's
attention episode, which, like,

891
00:44:08,555 --> 00:44:12,795
really was just like a double
wide single Yeah. Exploring a

892
00:44:12,795 --> 00:44:15,995
single thought. Yeah. Like,
we've been uploading more things

893
00:44:16,830 --> 00:44:18,990
that are just themselves.

894
00:44:19,230 --> 00:44:19,470
Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm.

895
00:44:19,470 --> 00:44:22,750
Mike Rugnetta: Uploads have a
single identity as opposed to

896
00:44:23,070 --> 00:44:27,870
being this kind of multivalent,
multipart thing where where a

897
00:44:27,870 --> 00:44:32,145
theme might be oblique or not
clear or even nonexistent. And

898
00:44:32,145 --> 00:44:36,625
the response has been either
positive or nonexistent, which

899
00:44:36,625 --> 00:44:39,825
is another way to say positive.
Right? Like, when you change

900
00:44:39,825 --> 00:44:41,745
something and no one in the
audience is like, wait. What the

901
00:44:41,745 --> 00:44:42,465
fuck are you doing?

902
00:44:42,465 --> 00:44:45,425
Stop it. That's good. Right?
That means that it seems like a

903
00:44:45,425 --> 00:44:48,170
natural evolution of the show.
So think we're just gonna lean

904
00:44:48,170 --> 00:44:50,890
into what we've been doing so
far.

905
00:44:50,970 --> 00:44:54,330
Just try to do it as we talked
about earlier, more on purpose.

906
00:44:54,330 --> 00:44:56,250
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. And I
think another thing that's going

907
00:44:56,250 --> 00:44:59,945
to help with intentionality
there is that in conversations,

908
00:44:59,945 --> 00:45:02,505
we're starting to treat the
whole feed as if the whole feed

909
00:45:02,505 --> 00:45:05,465
were the magazine rather than
every episode being the magazine

910
00:45:05,465 --> 00:45:08,825
we're releasing. Yep. In some
ways, like, the flexibility of

911
00:45:08,825 --> 00:45:11,785
any given release in the format
that we've created for this is,

912
00:45:11,785 --> 00:45:14,105
like, really freeing and allows
us to do everything, but it's

913
00:45:14,105 --> 00:45:18,160
also constricting and that you
need to pack all of your ideas

914
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,600
into the same container every
time we release. And the further

915
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,560
we're stretching through that,
the more I'm starting to see,

916
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,920
like, a lot of open space in how
we can fill the feed in new and

917
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:28,720
surprising ways

918
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:29,120
Mike Rugnetta: Yep.

919
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,285
Jason Oberholtzer: And continue
to make the feed feel more like

920
00:45:31,285 --> 00:45:34,885
every single episode drop. And
that's getting me really excited

921
00:45:34,885 --> 00:45:36,645
to figure out how to program
next year.

922
00:45:36,645 --> 00:45:40,085
Hans Buetow: Yeah. Surprise
episodes, strangely sized

923
00:45:40,085 --> 00:45:45,010
episodes, oddly comprised
episodes. Just prepare. It's

924
00:45:45,010 --> 00:45:46,930
gonna we're gonna have a fun
time this year.

925
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:49,810
Mike Rugnetta: And speaking of
which, Georgia, do you wanna

926
00:45:49,810 --> 00:45:52,130
talk to us a little bit about
streaming?

927
00:45:53,170 --> 00:45:58,925
Georgia Hampton: Why, yes. So we
did do, as we previously said,

928
00:45:58,925 --> 00:46:03,165
over what was it? Forty hours
Yeah. Of livestreaming.

929
00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:07,005
Mike Rugnetta: Which I think if
if memory serves, we are gonna

930
00:46:07,005 --> 00:46:10,925
do a numb another stream week
later this year.

931
00:46:10,925 --> 00:46:11,245
Georgia Hampton: That is

932
00:46:11,245 --> 00:46:12,285
Mike Rugnetta: on the books.
Okay.

933
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,040
Georgia Hampton: Far as we know,
that is happening again.

934
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,040
Hans Buetow: Yeah. Was more than
half of that forty hours. Yeah.

935
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:17,280
Yeah.

936
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,440
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Oh, big
oh, I I'm sure it was.

937
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:20,720
Mike Rugnetta: But between now
and then.

938
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:22,480
Georgia Hampton: But between now
and then, we're going to be

939
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,135
doing quite a lot more streaming
on our Twitch channel,

940
00:46:27,135 --> 00:46:35,135
twitch.tv/theneverpost. We are
also going to lean a lot harder

941
00:46:35,375 --> 00:46:39,535
on making streaming content for
you and make a lot more of

942
00:46:39,535 --> 00:46:39,695
Hans Buetow: it,

943
00:46:40,410 --> 00:46:44,570
Georgia Hampton: which includes
a monthly stream of our

944
00:46:44,570 --> 00:46:48,090
editorial meeting that we have
every Monday, where we pitch

945
00:46:48,090 --> 00:46:51,850
ideas, we bring in ideas from
other people, and we are going

946
00:46:51,850 --> 00:46:56,085
to do that live for you, where
you can be in the audience and

947
00:46:56,085 --> 00:47:01,685
see how the Never Post Sausage
is made and also contribute to

948
00:47:02,325 --> 00:47:06,645
how segments get put together in
a lot of different ways. That

949
00:47:06,645 --> 00:47:09,810
was extremely instrumental when
I was making that episode about

950
00:47:09,810 --> 00:47:11,730
witchcraft and anti witches.

951
00:47:11,730 --> 00:47:13,650
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Like,
we have already done this and it

952
00:47:13,650 --> 00:47:16,370
has ruled. Like, we get great
sources and ideas from people

953
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:18,850
and it validates the things
we're trying to see if they're

954
00:47:18,850 --> 00:47:23,315
sticky or not. These are so fun
and so valuable to do.

955
00:47:23,475 --> 00:47:25,955
Hans Buetow: But aren't there
four Mondays in a month? Maybe

956
00:47:25,955 --> 00:47:26,595
five?

957
00:47:26,675 --> 00:47:30,995
Georgia Hampton: Why, yes, there
are, Hans. But I have wonderful

958
00:47:30,995 --> 00:47:36,460
news for you about the remaining
Mondays where Wait, Paul's here

959
00:47:36,460 --> 00:47:41,420
now. Paul, how did he get to
Minneapolis? Oh, god. He's on

960
00:47:41,420 --> 00:47:42,300
the way to me.

961
00:47:43,980 --> 00:47:49,105
But, yes. So on other Mondays
throughout the month, we will

962
00:47:49,105 --> 00:47:53,345
also be live streaming other
things like teen chats, maybe

963
00:47:53,345 --> 00:47:56,705
some gaming. Definitely some
gaming.

964
00:47:56,785 --> 00:47:59,425
Mike Rugnetta: Georgia,
certified professional gamer

965
00:47:59,425 --> 00:47:59,985
girl.

966
00:47:59,985 --> 00:48:03,800
Georgia Hampton: Yes. It's
finally happening to me. Yeah. I

967
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,120
got the call once in a
generation.

968
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:11,640
Jason Oberholtzer: So Mondays is
gonna be the big day. 11:30

969
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,520
eastern on Mondays. That's when
the editorial call will be once

970
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,480
a month. And other Mondays, we
will have other programming for

971
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,855
you there. Sometimes the gaming
will probably be in the

972
00:48:19,855 --> 00:48:21,215
evenings, but we'll let you
know.

973
00:48:21,215 --> 00:48:24,095
Just hang out. We'll figure it
out together. And once again,

974
00:48:24,095 --> 00:48:29,455
that is twitch.tv/theneverpost.
Hang out with us there. So one

975
00:48:29,455 --> 00:48:34,110
of the things I know we're gonna
be doing on Mondays at 11:30 on

976
00:48:34,110 --> 00:48:37,950
some Monday on 11:30 is we are
going to be having live

977
00:48:37,950 --> 00:48:42,750
recordings of the team chats,
little monthly yap fests which

978
00:48:42,750 --> 00:48:45,470
we are going to release for the
members.

979
00:48:46,135 --> 00:48:49,815
As part of our membership
benefits, we are gonna be doing

980
00:48:49,815 --> 00:48:52,695
a monthly team chat. And if you
wanna watch us record that live,

981
00:48:52,695 --> 00:48:55,895
you can come to twitch.tv/ then
ever post and watch us, or you

982
00:48:55,895 --> 00:48:59,430
can become a member and listen
to the edited output of that

983
00:48:59,430 --> 00:49:03,350
coming out once a month and
starring friend of the show and

984
00:49:03,350 --> 00:49:05,430
yapping extraordinaire, Meaghel
Janardin.

985
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:07,750
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. This gets
us, I think, into the last thing

986
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:09,910
that we wanted to talk about,
which is maybe one of the more

987
00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:12,870
important things, which is, is
anything gonna change for

988
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:16,185
members? And the answer is yes.
I mean, you know, things are

989
00:49:16,185 --> 00:49:20,025
gonna change insofar as the show
itself is changing. Your feed

990
00:49:20,025 --> 00:49:26,825
will change in ways that I think
are will be easy to understand.

991
00:49:26,825 --> 00:49:30,820
Like, you're gonna get the same
parceled out uploads that

992
00:49:30,820 --> 00:49:34,180
everybody else gets. But you're
also going to get, as Jason

993
00:49:34,180 --> 00:49:37,620
said, these members only
Yapfests. There's essentially,

994
00:49:37,620 --> 00:49:41,060
like, an extra chat show now
that's gonna come out every once

995
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:45,645
in a while that's just for
members. But Hans, do you wanna

996
00:49:45,645 --> 00:49:49,245
talk about the other member feed
changes that are gonna occur?

997
00:49:49,405 --> 00:49:52,205
Hans Buetow: Absolutely. Because
what we're gonna do is condense

998
00:49:52,205 --> 00:49:55,965
things down into one feed. Right
now, it says on every episode in

999
00:49:55,965 --> 00:49:58,310
the show notes, subscribe,
become a member, and you get

1000
00:49:58,310 --> 00:50:00,310
access to all of our different
feeds. Well, those feeds are

1001
00:50:00,310 --> 00:50:02,950
gonna become one feed, so it's
easier for you. You don't have

1002
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:05,830
to remember which ones you're
subscribed to, figure out, am I

1003
00:50:05,830 --> 00:50:07,830
do I have never watched or not
never watched, whatever?

1004
00:50:07,830 --> 00:50:11,205
Everything's just gonna go down
one feed, and frankly, we're not

1005
00:50:11,205 --> 00:50:14,965
gonna be feeding a whole lot
more down that feed. We are

1006
00:50:14,965 --> 00:50:18,325
gonna not be doing extended
interviews anymore. We just

1007
00:50:18,325 --> 00:50:21,045
don't get big numbers on them,
and we struggle to be able to

1008
00:50:21,045 --> 00:50:24,670
take the time to go produce them
considering all of the other

1009
00:50:24,670 --> 00:50:26,830
things for doing the regular
show. So we're just gonna let

1010
00:50:26,830 --> 00:50:30,590
those go. If this is a huge deal
breaker for you, let us know.

1011
00:50:31,070 --> 00:50:33,150
Mike Rugnetta: I have a feeling
it's not because the best

1012
00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:35,805
versions of those interviews
always just end up in the

1013
00:50:35,805 --> 00:50:36,685
segment. The puzzle

1014
00:50:36,685 --> 00:50:39,405
Georgia Hampton: is kind of like
punishing the members. Like,

1015
00:50:39,405 --> 00:50:42,525
here's the version that isn't as
good.

1016
00:50:42,525 --> 00:50:42,765
Jason Oberholtzer: Do you

1017
00:50:42,765 --> 00:50:43,965
Georgia Hampton: wanna pay us to
listen to

1018
00:50:43,965 --> 00:50:46,525
Mike Rugnetta: something that's,
like, maybe, like, 10% worse?

1019
00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:50,110
Hans Buetow: If yes, and you'll
cancel your membership because

1020
00:50:50,110 --> 00:50:52,590
Mike Rugnetta: of that, please
let us And we

1021
00:50:52,590 --> 00:50:55,070
Hans Buetow: can we can we'll
talk about that. But you're

1022
00:50:55,070 --> 00:50:57,630
gonna get a bunch of stuff. It's
gonna be much easier to access,

1023
00:50:57,950 --> 00:51:00,750
and it's gonna all funnel
through one feed. So you'll get

1024
00:51:00,750 --> 00:51:03,705
more details about that if
you're a member as we figure out

1025
00:51:03,705 --> 00:51:06,425
exactly the mechanics of how
that's gonna work.

1026
00:51:06,665 --> 00:51:10,505
Jason Oberholtzer: One feed, a
monthly Yapfest roundtable with

1027
00:51:10,505 --> 00:51:15,145
the crew, assorted oddities when
we make them, and ad free

1028
00:51:15,145 --> 00:51:18,600
episodes of everything we put
out. That's a pretty good feed.

1029
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,040
That's a pretty good feed.

1030
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:20,600
Hans Buetow: Alright. Great.

1031
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,800
Mike Rugnetta: So Can I can I
put a what should be a survey

1032
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,560
question to our audience? Sure.
I would love to know if there

1033
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:32,120
are podcasts out there that have
member feeds that you love. I

1034
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,160
would love to know what they
are.

1035
00:51:33,535 --> 00:51:36,015
Georgia Hampton: Yes. Yeah. That
would be so helpful.

1036
00:51:36,015 --> 00:51:37,935
Mike Rugnetta: Like, what
podcasts have something that is

1037
00:51:37,935 --> 00:51:41,615
forward facing where the member
content is something that you

1038
00:51:41,615 --> 00:51:45,055
think slaps and, like, is really
great, and it's all in one feed?

1039
00:51:45,055 --> 00:51:45,775
I would love to know.

1040
00:51:46,220 --> 00:51:49,500
Hans Buetow: So that's our plan.
2026. It's coming. It's here,

1041
00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:52,460
and we're gonna lean into all
the stuff that we learned from

1042
00:51:52,460 --> 00:51:57,500
2025 and continue to try to grow
the audience. We wanna spend

1043
00:51:57,500 --> 00:51:59,500
more time with you, our
audience.

1044
00:51:59,820 --> 00:52:02,565
We wanna grow the revenue,
obviously, because we need to

1045
00:52:02,565 --> 00:52:06,165
make this sustainable for all of
us to be able to spend the time,

1046
00:52:06,165 --> 00:52:10,005
which we love, doing this for
you, whom we love. We hope to

1047
00:52:10,005 --> 00:52:12,725
work with more contributors. We
hope to have more partnerships

1048
00:52:12,725 --> 00:52:18,040
externally. And crucially, we
hope to do even better this year

1049
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,440
at making Neverpost on purpose.
Well said, Hans.

1050
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:22,920
Jason Oberholtzer: Well said.

1051
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,600
Hans Buetow: So this is all
gonna start in February. So

1052
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:31,265
February 2, which is a Monday.
Tune yourselves in 11:30 eastern

1053
00:52:31,265 --> 00:52:34,545
time and come to watch us stream
our editorial meeting. And from

1054
00:52:34,545 --> 00:52:37,745
that point on, you will start to
notice differences in all of the

1055
00:52:37,745 --> 00:52:41,505
feeds. We may have a couple of
super secret fun tantalizing

1056
00:52:41,505 --> 00:52:46,040
things coming at you between now
and then, but that should be the

1057
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,280
next thing you should expect
after this.

1058
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,160
Jason Oberholtzer: And I do
wanna say again, thank you to

1059
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,600
everybody for making this a
successful year, a year on the

1060
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,120
path to sustainable growth. We
are still not there yet. I know

1061
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,695
we say this so many times. Like,
every six months or so, we have

1062
00:53:01,695 --> 00:53:03,935
to say it again, but we are
still not there. This is a

1063
00:53:03,935 --> 00:53:04,815
meaningful step.

1064
00:53:04,815 --> 00:53:09,375
We have, gained some support
without having to spam marketing

1065
00:53:09,375 --> 00:53:11,375
dollars out there so that you
know we exist. Like, enough of

1066
00:53:11,375 --> 00:53:14,730
you know we exist. We are a real
show. And people can find us,

1067
00:53:14,730 --> 00:53:17,050
and we're trying to help more
people find us and help us grow

1068
00:53:17,050 --> 00:53:21,210
more. We still need to grow a
lot to be sustainable enough to

1069
00:53:21,210 --> 00:53:24,970
make this the amount of our jobs
that it is the amount of our

1070
00:53:24,970 --> 00:53:25,290
lives.

1071
00:53:25,905 --> 00:53:31,425
We all spend about 50% of our
work week on this show. And thus

1072
00:53:31,425 --> 00:53:34,385
far, we have not made money for
doing that. And this year, with

1073
00:53:34,385 --> 00:53:36,785
your contributions, we will be
able to split up some of that

1074
00:53:36,785 --> 00:53:39,780
money after it goes to hosting
and contributors and all the

1075
00:53:39,780 --> 00:53:42,180
other budgets it goes to to pay
ourselves a little to do this

1076
00:53:42,180 --> 00:53:44,020
and that is incredible. Thank

1077
00:53:44,020 --> 00:53:44,740
Mike Rugnetta: you. That's
really great.

1078
00:53:44,740 --> 00:53:47,940
Jason Oberholtzer: Like, this
huge step. It's not a lot for

1079
00:53:47,940 --> 00:53:50,900
us, but it is something. And
like coming from nothing to

1080
00:53:50,900 --> 00:53:54,020
something is like an
unbelievable step. So thank you

1081
00:53:54,020 --> 00:53:55,715
so much for that. Yeah.

1082
00:53:56,195 --> 00:53:59,315
And please continue to tell
people who you think would like

1083
00:53:59,315 --> 00:54:04,115
what we do that we exist because
we need to be at a new growth

1084
00:54:04,115 --> 00:54:07,395
stage when we do this same
report to you next year. We need

1085
00:54:07,395 --> 00:54:11,170
to be bigger. We need to be able
to take up more of our time with

1086
00:54:11,170 --> 00:54:14,770
this show and, I think that we
have a chance of getting there.

1087
00:54:14,770 --> 00:54:17,250
We're certainly closer than we
were last year. It's a long

1088
00:54:17,250 --> 00:54:17,810
process.

1089
00:54:17,810 --> 00:54:20,690
I know we all kind of thought
when we got into this, oh, shows

1090
00:54:20,690 --> 00:54:23,665
take about four years to
establish. It's one thing to

1091
00:54:23,665 --> 00:54:26,705
know that. It's another thing to
feel it and To live it. Do it

1092
00:54:26,705 --> 00:54:30,865
every day. But if we're about
halfway to getting this show to

1093
00:54:30,865 --> 00:54:33,585
where it's maybe sustainable,
that's amazing.

1094
00:54:33,585 --> 00:54:37,345
It feels possible, but there's a
lot more work to do. But But

1095
00:54:37,290 --> 00:54:40,810
it's been very satisfying work
thus far, and I have to thank

1096
00:54:40,810 --> 00:54:45,370
all of you for helping us make
this a reality and making this a

1097
00:54:45,370 --> 00:54:47,930
satisfying place to spend half
of our work weeks.

1098
00:54:48,170 --> 00:54:49,850
Mike Rugnetta: I think that's
really well said, Jason. And I

1099
00:54:49,850 --> 00:54:51,770
think the other thing that we
think about a lot when we do

1100
00:54:51,770 --> 00:54:54,585
these kinds of updates is that,
like, you know, Never Post is a

1101
00:54:54,585 --> 00:54:58,345
show foreign about the Internet,
and the show is is a part of the

1102
00:54:58,345 --> 00:55:02,265
Internet. And so this is also us
trying to take a look at what

1103
00:55:02,265 --> 00:55:06,390
it's like to make something now
and to try to do it in such a

1104
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:09,350
way that isn't unhealthy and
doesn't drive the people who

1105
00:55:09,350 --> 00:55:14,310
make it insane and isn't
irresponsible to do. And that's

1106
00:55:14,310 --> 00:55:16,630
a real balancing act. It's hard.

1107
00:55:17,350 --> 00:55:19,270
We, like, have to make
sacrifices. We have to have,

1108
00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:22,365
like, tough conversations about,
like, what work we can shoulder

1109
00:55:22,365 --> 00:55:26,445
and not shoulder and what we can
do with the show over the next

1110
00:55:26,445 --> 00:55:30,445
year as it relates to, like, all
of our other work and, like, it

1111
00:55:30,445 --> 00:55:35,725
feels good and necessary for us
to share that with the audience.

1112
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,800
And so I guess, you know, just
to echo what we've been saying

1113
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,200
over and over again in this,
like, thank you everybody for

1114
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:46,120
listening. Thank you for your
support. I know that these

1115
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,360
uploads are maybe a little like
in the weeds and navel gazey,

1116
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,345
but like, it's also like this is
what it's like.

1117
00:55:53,425 --> 00:55:58,465
Yeah. This is, you know, which I
hope also is just interesting. I

1118
00:55:58,465 --> 00:56:01,185
hope that you enjoy this for the
reasons that you enjoy the other

1119
00:56:01,185 --> 00:56:03,105
parts of the show because we
think of these things as being

1120
00:56:03,105 --> 00:56:06,560
very related. Definitely.
Alright.

1121
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:11,840
We'll see you with an episode, a
much more normal Neverpost.

1122
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,040
Well, you know, a Neverpost that
is like the Neverpost that

1123
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:20,255
you've come to expect. Yes. In a
couple weeks. Okay.

1124
00:56:20,255 --> 00:56:20,655
Bye.

1125
00:56:20,655 --> 00:56:22,015
Georgia Hampton: Bye. Tell

1126
00:56:22,335 --> 00:56:23,055
Mike Rugnetta: your friends
about the show.