1 00:00:25,175 --> 00:00:27,575 Georgia Hampton: Did you have a computer room in your house? 2 00:00:28,350 --> 00:00:34,030 Katherine Dee: Yes. The one I remember most fondly was I think 3 00:00:34,030 --> 00:00:37,950 it was intended to be a sunroom. And there is a floor to ceiling 4 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:45,165 mirrors. And then in the center was a desktop computer, tile 5 00:00:45,165 --> 00:00:49,405 floor. The walls were like a terracotta color. 6 00:00:49,645 --> 00:00:51,965 You know, there's really, like, nothing in this room but the 7 00:00:51,965 --> 00:00:54,445 computer and then, like, piles of paper and, 8 00:00:54,330 --> 00:00:58,410 Georgia Hampton: and, like, books and stuff. That's 9 00:00:58,410 --> 00:01:01,770 Catherine D. She's an Internet culture writer who's written for 10 00:01:01,770 --> 00:01:05,690 GQ, The New York Times, and The Spectator to name a few. She's 11 00:01:05,690 --> 00:01:09,545 also written a lot about the placeness of the Internet, and 12 00:01:09,545 --> 00:01:13,625 I've been really interested in that. How the Internet exists as 13 00:01:13,625 --> 00:01:15,465 a place we go to. 14 00:01:16,105 --> 00:01:20,105 And I figured there's no better place to start than here in the 15 00:01:20,105 --> 00:01:24,360 computer room. The computer room is almost a misleading name 16 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,120 because the space itself was kind of this hodgepodge of a few 17 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,600 rooms baked into one, part office, part storage, part 18 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:33,320 closet. 19 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,935 Katherine Dee: And it was like repurposed office usually. 20 00:01:38,015 --> 00:01:41,295 People would keep, like, weird ephemera there, stuff they were 21 00:01:41,295 --> 00:01:45,855 embarrassed of. So I'm thinking here more like action figures or 22 00:01:45,855 --> 00:01:50,070 like anime VHS, you know, like books that you don't want people 23 00:01:50,070 --> 00:01:53,110 to know you're like, any sort of manner of, like, toilet book. 24 00:01:53,110 --> 00:01:55,510 Right? Like, a book that you would ordinarily place on your 25 00:01:55,510 --> 00:01:59,510 toilet, things we used to do before the smartphone, might be 26 00:01:59,510 --> 00:02:00,390 in the computer room. 27 00:02:02,115 --> 00:02:04,915 Georgia Hampton: The computer room in my house was a converted 28 00:02:04,915 --> 00:02:09,635 laundry room. It had a desk with a swivel chair, a long counter 29 00:02:09,635 --> 00:02:13,715 against the wall, and this huge slop sink that we never used for 30 00:02:13,715 --> 00:02:17,270 anything. It's also where my family would store stuff like 31 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:21,830 winter coats and sleeping bags. Every flat surface was covered 32 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:25,670 in papers and boxes of safety pins and multiple rolls of 33 00:02:25,670 --> 00:02:28,950 Scotch tape. Every drawer was a junk drawer. 34 00:02:29,605 --> 00:02:34,645 And it's also where the computer lived. This huge hulking mass of 35 00:02:34,645 --> 00:02:39,685 gray plastic that had to exist in this one specific place 36 00:02:39,765 --> 00:02:45,605 indefinitely. In order for the computer to be used at all, it 37 00:02:44,940 --> 00:02:49,100 had to be plugged into an outlet, specifically into a 38 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:54,220 phone jack. There were wires to contend with, to shove down the 39 00:02:54,220 --> 00:02:58,380 space between the desk and the wall or bundle up behind the 40 00:02:58,380 --> 00:03:02,465 monitor itself. And you didn't always get to choose where the 41 00:03:02,465 --> 00:03:03,665 computer was. 42 00:03:04,305 --> 00:03:08,465 If the one available phone jack was in the dining room, well, 43 00:03:08,705 --> 00:03:12,465 that's where the computer had to be. But the ideal, at least in 44 00:03:12,465 --> 00:03:17,730 my home, was to put the computer and its many unseemly wires into 45 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:23,250 its own room. A room that was out of the way, out of sight, 46 00:03:23,330 --> 00:03:27,090 and already full of other things that didn't have anywhere else 47 00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:32,415 to go. This all meant that if I wanted to go online, I had to 48 00:03:32,415 --> 00:03:36,335 visit the one designated place in the house where I could do 49 00:03:36,335 --> 00:03:40,255 that. Fast forward twenty five years. 50 00:03:40,975 --> 00:03:48,490 I'm online all the time, everywhere. At some point, I 51 00:03:48,490 --> 00:03:52,570 logged on and never really logged off 52 00:03:52,890 --> 00:03:57,605 Katherine Dee: ever again. There's a sense of you're always 53 00:03:57,605 --> 00:04:01,205 sort of tapped in. You're always sort of ambiently online now. 54 00:04:01,525 --> 00:04:05,605 Georgia Hampton: I can tap into the Internet anytime on any 55 00:04:05,605 --> 00:04:09,380 number of devices, but especially on my phone. And I 56 00:04:09,380 --> 00:04:13,060 cross over onto the Internet in a way that almost feels 57 00:04:13,780 --> 00:04:16,980 narcoleptic, a change of consciousness that I don't 58 00:04:16,980 --> 00:04:21,780 always do on purpose. When I used the computer room at my 59 00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:27,485 house, I'd lose time, like big chunks of it. But I always did 60 00:04:27,485 --> 00:04:32,605 it in the same place. Now the ambient nature of my time online 61 00:04:32,605 --> 00:04:36,525 blurs the difference between when I'm online and when I'm 62 00:04:36,525 --> 00:04:36,685 not. 63 00:04:37,370 --> 00:04:44,090 But I do still feel like I'm going somewhere. So where am I 64 00:04:44,090 --> 00:04:51,930 going? What kind of place is that? When I first started 65 00:04:51,930 --> 00:04:55,365 researching this topic, a deceptively simple answer jumped 66 00:04:55,365 --> 00:04:59,205 out at me. Maybe the Internet is a third place. 67 00:04:59,925 --> 00:05:02,965 I'm sure you've heard some variation of this concept coined 68 00:05:02,965 --> 00:05:07,125 by the sociologist Ray Oldenburg in his 1989 book, The Great Good 69 00:05:07,125 --> 00:05:11,290 Place. But as a refresher, a third place is somewhere that 70 00:05:11,290 --> 00:05:15,770 isn't your home and isn't work, but is quite literally a secret 71 00:05:15,770 --> 00:05:20,170 third thing. And its function is predominantly one of community 72 00:05:20,170 --> 00:05:24,425 building. Third places are spots like your local bar or your 73 00:05:24,425 --> 00:05:28,025 local coffee shop. They can be other institutions like churches 74 00:05:28,025 --> 00:05:29,465 or meeting spaces. 75 00:05:29,865 --> 00:05:33,625 They might involve some kind of commerce. But crucially, that's 76 00:05:33,625 --> 00:05:36,620 not the only thing you can do there. And it's not necessarily 77 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:40,460 why you'd go there in the first place. The true benefit of a 78 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:44,380 third place is in the socialization it provides. It's 79 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:47,420 the kind of spot where you'd meet strangers, neighbors, 80 00:05:47,925 --> 00:05:50,885 people in your vicinity who might be completely different 81 00:05:50,885 --> 00:05:54,325 from you and who you could interact with for the sake of 82 00:05:54,325 --> 00:05:56,565 creating person to person bonds. 83 00:05:57,285 --> 00:06:00,725 And Oldenburg had specific criteria for what qualities a 84 00:06:00,725 --> 00:06:05,700 third place had to have in order to be the real deal. It had to 85 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:09,540 be accessible, inspire conversation, have a community 86 00:06:09,540 --> 00:06:14,100 of dedicated regulars, and serve as a kind of the home away from 87 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:14,420 home. 88 00:06:17,085 --> 00:06:19,885 Charles Soukop: And so it's often referred to as the cheers 89 00:06:19,885 --> 00:06:22,765 phenomenon. Right? A place where everybody knows your name 90 00:06:22,765 --> 00:06:25,645 because you walk in and you immediately feel that sense of 91 00:06:25,645 --> 00:06:26,525 familiarity. 92 00:06:26,605 --> 00:06:29,245 Georgia Hampton: That's Charles Sokup. He's a professor of 93 00:06:29,245 --> 00:06:31,805 communication and journalism at the University of Northern 94 00:06:31,805 --> 00:06:36,020 Colorado. Charles has written a lot about third places, and he 95 00:06:36,020 --> 00:06:39,220 explained to me that Ray Oldenburg created this concept 96 00:06:39,220 --> 00:06:42,900 of the third place out of a concern that these spaces were 97 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:43,700 disappearing. 98 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:46,100 Charles Soukop: What happened, especially as suburbanization 99 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:51,975 occurred, is that we developed these long interstate highways, 100 00:06:51,975 --> 00:06:56,615 freeways, etcetera. People drove from home to work, and they 101 00:06:56,615 --> 00:06:58,935 didn't spend a lot of time outside of home and work most 102 00:06:58,935 --> 00:07:02,230 importantly. But then when they did, it was going to a fast food 103 00:07:02,230 --> 00:07:05,590 restaurant. It was going to places like Applebee's or TGI 104 00:07:05,590 --> 00:07:06,390 Fridays. 105 00:07:06,550 --> 00:07:09,030 Georgia Hampton: But none of these things really fit the bill 106 00:07:09,030 --> 00:07:10,070 of a third place. 107 00:07:10,070 --> 00:07:12,310 Charles Soukop: These are places that are designed first and 108 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:14,790 foremost to get people in and out very quickly because they're 109 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:17,575 about productivity and they're about making as much money as 110 00:07:17,575 --> 00:07:21,015 possible, and they're not designed architecturally for 111 00:07:21,015 --> 00:07:23,175 people to interact with each other. Right? You're there to 112 00:07:23,175 --> 00:07:26,055 sit in your own little booth, and you're not there to talk to 113 00:07:26,055 --> 00:07:28,455 anybody else. And that's what people do in those spaces. 114 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:31,130 Georgia Hampton: With little in the way of physical third places 115 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:34,490 available to people searching for community, there was a big 116 00:07:34,490 --> 00:07:38,170 space left open. And I could see how the development of the 117 00:07:38,170 --> 00:07:44,075 Internet might provide a virtual third place. In 2006, Charles 118 00:07:44,075 --> 00:07:47,035 wrote one of the earliest studies about how the concept of 119 00:07:47,035 --> 00:07:51,435 third places could apply to the social Internet. In the study, 120 00:07:51,595 --> 00:07:55,540 Charles commented on how certain places online, like forums and 121 00:07:55,540 --> 00:08:00,420 chat rooms, could offer a space for community that carries some 122 00:08:00,420 --> 00:08:05,220 qualities of a third place, but also a lot of differences. 123 00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:08,980 There's the fact that the Internet, at least in 2006, 124 00:08:09,140 --> 00:08:10,340 wasn't all that accessible. 125 00:08:10,955 --> 00:08:15,035 You had to own a computer or have access to an Internet cafe 126 00:08:15,035 --> 00:08:18,875 and be able to pay to use it. Chat rooms weren't usually 127 00:08:18,955 --> 00:08:22,235 local. They couldn't really replace the coffee shop down the 128 00:08:22,235 --> 00:08:25,530 street. They were more like clubs for people who all like 129 00:08:25,530 --> 00:08:29,290 the same stuff. And if that club was welcoming, then great. 130 00:08:29,610 --> 00:08:34,410 But that wasn't always the case. Like, if you just started 131 00:08:34,410 --> 00:08:37,785 getting into Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it might be hard to fit 132 00:08:37,785 --> 00:08:40,505 in when you join a forum full of a bunch of people who have 133 00:08:40,505 --> 00:08:43,705 already watched the show multiple times. And in those 134 00:08:43,705 --> 00:08:48,025 cases, there is no cheers effect. No one knows your name, 135 00:08:48,185 --> 00:08:53,750 and often they were Internet doesn't fit neatly into 136 00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:58,150 Oldenburg's Great Good Place. But Charles wrote that virtual 137 00:08:58,150 --> 00:09:02,470 third places do exist and have their own qualities. 138 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:06,895 Quote, virtual third places should be designed to fit into 139 00:09:06,895 --> 00:09:11,135 the participants' mundane and ordinary lived experiences. The 140 00:09:11,135 --> 00:09:14,015 virtual third place should feel like a place for the here and 141 00:09:14,015 --> 00:09:17,935 now, a place that is integrated seamlessly into the existing 142 00:09:17,935 --> 00:09:21,535 textures and details of our lived communal experiences. 143 00:09:22,390 --> 00:09:25,910 Twenty years has passed since that study was first published, 144 00:09:26,310 --> 00:09:30,150 and a lot of what Charles wrote about has come to fruition. We 145 00:09:30,150 --> 00:09:33,270 do integrate our use of the Internet into our daily lives. 146 00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:37,145 The Internet does feel like a place full of, as he wrote, 147 00:09:37,145 --> 00:09:39,465 localized informal interactions. 148 00:09:39,545 --> 00:09:46,425 But do all of these factors a third place make? Well, I just 149 00:09:46,425 --> 00:09:56,290 flat out asked him the question. Is the Internet a third place? 150 00:09:57,970 --> 00:10:04,775 Charles Soukop: Maybe. Sometimes. Not usually. That 151 00:10:05,655 --> 00:10:09,175 Georgia Hampton: has everything to do with the emergence and 152 00:10:09,175 --> 00:10:12,855 dominance of large scale social media platforms in the last 153 00:10:12,855 --> 00:10:23,440 twenty years. Third places are small. Platforms, not so much. 154 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,000 Charles Soukop: You're in a cafe. There's, like, 25, thirty, 155 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,960 forty people there, that kind of thing. That's sort of an ideal 156 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,945 number, think, for that sort of interaction. Obviously, when 157 00:10:31,945 --> 00:10:35,145 you're into thousands or millions of people, you can't 158 00:10:35,145 --> 00:10:37,945 have those sorts of interactions. It's it's not the 159 00:10:37,945 --> 00:10:38,825 sort of experience. 160 00:10:38,825 --> 00:10:41,545 It's a totally different phenomenon. It's a it's about 161 00:10:41,545 --> 00:10:44,025 attention, and it's about all kinds of other things rather 162 00:10:44,025 --> 00:10:46,650 than about actually understanding one another, 163 00:10:46,650 --> 00:10:50,170 experiencing just informal connection with others. 164 00:10:51,530 --> 00:10:55,130 Georgia Hampton: But scale is only part of the issue here. The 165 00:10:55,130 --> 00:10:59,050 most stark limitation to any social platform's ability to be 166 00:10:59,050 --> 00:11:03,495 a true third place lies in the way we are encouraged to use 167 00:11:03,495 --> 00:11:08,135 them. Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter may present themselves 168 00:11:08,135 --> 00:11:11,815 as catalysts for social interaction in theory, but 169 00:11:11,815 --> 00:11:15,310 things shake out very differently in practice. 170 00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:17,470 Charles Soukop: There's not a lot of profit and people just 171 00:11:17,470 --> 00:11:20,910 hanging around building community. Right? You can't sell 172 00:11:20,910 --> 00:11:23,870 stuff in that context particularly well. You can sell 173 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:26,435 the idea of that, but you don't like the practice of it because 174 00:11:26,435 --> 00:11:29,795 it it part of it, it just gives too much autonomy to those 175 00:11:29,795 --> 00:11:30,755 individuals. Right? 176 00:11:30,755 --> 00:11:34,115 They can create their own space for their own purposes, which 177 00:11:34,115 --> 00:11:36,355 might have nothing to do with what your goals are as a 178 00:11:36,355 --> 00:11:42,050 company. So why would you give them that independence? There's 179 00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:46,130 something so unpredictable about community building. It can 180 00:11:46,130 --> 00:11:49,570 become almost anything, and they want predictability. They wanna 181 00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:53,735 keep people in a very pattern set of behaviors and habits, and 182 00:11:53,735 --> 00:11:57,255 they don't want people to have that independent, unpredictable 183 00:11:57,255 --> 00:11:59,815 kind of, you know, encounter with others. 184 00:12:08,670 --> 00:12:11,230 Georgia Hampton: Community building is only useful to a 185 00:12:11,230 --> 00:12:14,430 corporation like Meta insofar as you do it while staying on the 186 00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:18,750 app. And what tool keeps us scrolling and engaging with any 187 00:12:18,750 --> 00:12:23,055 given platform for hours and hours? Say it with me, If the 188 00:12:24,655 --> 00:12:29,295 the Internet is a place, then the algorithm is a room. Your 189 00:12:29,295 --> 00:12:34,335 room, decorated with all the stuff you like, or at least what 190 00:12:34,335 --> 00:12:38,770 it thinks you like. Maybe you can hear voices through the 191 00:12:38,770 --> 00:12:43,010 walls, but you can't leave the room that was made for you. 192 00:12:43,410 --> 00:12:47,410 There isn't even a door. And under these conditions, it's 193 00:12:47,410 --> 00:12:51,155 extremely hard to cultivate the dynamic persistent kind of 194 00:12:51,155 --> 00:12:56,995 community that is essential to third places. So instead of 195 00:12:56,995 --> 00:13:01,475 serving as a third place, the Internet becomes the not work, 196 00:13:01,555 --> 00:13:04,890 not home space where increasingly, it feels like all 197 00:13:04,890 --> 00:13:07,290 you're supposed to do is spend money. We're back at the mall 198 00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:11,130 again, moving from store to store, or as the case may be, 199 00:13:11,370 --> 00:13:16,805 from IG ad to IG ad. In a place like this, you might interact 200 00:13:16,805 --> 00:13:19,765 with a salesperson or someone else who's in line to buy 201 00:13:19,765 --> 00:13:24,645 something, but the goal is always consumption in the most 202 00:13:24,645 --> 00:13:26,005 efficient way possible. 203 00:13:27,205 --> 00:13:31,860 So what kind of place is that? The non place. 204 00:13:35,780 --> 00:13:38,180 Charles Soukop: These are spaces that don't have any sort of 205 00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:43,780 context or history to them. They have no sense of uniqueness, so 206 00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:47,765 they're very standardized and formulaic. So things that are 207 00:13:47,765 --> 00:13:50,565 franchises are the clearest example of that. But anything 208 00:13:50,565 --> 00:13:54,325 that lacks it in, in particular, the one that always comes up in 209 00:13:54,325 --> 00:13:57,765 their research is the airport as the, like, the archetypal 210 00:13:57,765 --> 00:13:58,485 nonplace. 211 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,400 Georgia Hampton: A Starbucks in Denver looks virtually identical 212 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,800 to a Starbucks in Dubai. The menu is basically the same. The 213 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,800 physical space of a Starbucks, wherever it is, is only useful 214 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,085 in its ability to make it possible for me to get a caramel 215 00:14:14,085 --> 00:14:17,685 frappuccino with three pumps of vanilla. And I know that it will 216 00:14:17,685 --> 00:14:21,685 always taste exactly the same. The aprons will still be the 217 00:14:21,685 --> 00:14:23,445 same shade of Kelly green. 218 00:14:23,685 --> 00:14:27,110 The familiar benevolent smile of the brand's dual tailed mermaid 219 00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:31,670 will gaze down upon me in every time zone. Whatever country I'm 220 00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:34,950 in ceases to matter the second I step through the tinted glass 221 00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:38,550 door because now I'm in the sovereign territory of 222 00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:41,485 Starbucks, a nation all its own. 223 00:14:41,725 --> 00:14:45,325 Charles Soukop: And that is very disorienting. It can be and you 224 00:14:45,325 --> 00:14:49,165 can kinda lose sense of what the expectations and norms are for 225 00:14:49,165 --> 00:14:51,245 spaces like that. So I think that's why people act kinda 226 00:14:51,245 --> 00:14:53,805 weird in airports because they don't really know what you're 227 00:14:53,805 --> 00:14:57,080 supposed to be doing. It doesn't have any connection. 228 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,480 Georgia Hampton: Tucked away in a hotel room of a large scale 229 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:09,480 chain, I become the hedonistic god of my own lawless land. I 230 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,415 watch TV shows I would never consider watching in my normal 231 00:15:13,415 --> 00:15:19,255 life. I bury myself under a pile of white terry cloth robes. I 232 00:15:19,255 --> 00:15:22,375 leave my open suitcase spatchcocked on the floor, 233 00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:26,860 barely containing the mountain of clothing I rifle through and 234 00:15:26,860 --> 00:15:30,940 never fold. It's only when I have to check out that the spell 235 00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:33,580 is broken and I become myself again. 236 00:15:36,505 --> 00:15:38,665 Charles Soukop: I would say most of the social media platforms, 237 00:15:38,665 --> 00:15:41,785 you could probably make a pretty good case for being a non place, 238 00:15:41,785 --> 00:15:45,305 particularly because of the way that they lack history and 239 00:15:45,305 --> 00:15:51,710 location and context. If you were to, like, put a target on 240 00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:54,510 the Internet, it would look like Facebook. Does that make sense 241 00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:57,230 for it? You know what I mean? It's like, it just feels 242 00:15:58,030 --> 00:16:03,310 monochromatic and uniform, and there's something kind of boring 243 00:16:03,310 --> 00:16:05,790 about how everything is in its unique place. 244 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,110 Georgia Hampton: But I don't think it's just that it's 245 00:16:07,365 --> 00:16:14,005 boring. It's also uncanny in its frictionlessness. I used to know 246 00:16:14,005 --> 00:16:20,165 exactly where the Internet was. It was in the computer room. The 247 00:16:20,165 --> 00:16:26,200 name itself was so place y, the room where the computer lived. 248 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,640 And now the computer is in every place. It's everywhere. All 249 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,120 Internet enabled devices joined together and made a new kind of 250 00:16:35,865 --> 00:16:41,225 place that exists like a veil on top of the whole world. And at 251 00:16:41,225 --> 00:16:46,105 first, maybe it seemed possible for that kind of tandem space to 252 00:16:46,105 --> 00:16:50,040 feel just as place like as the computer room did. But with the 253 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,040 emergence of platforms, with the ubiquity of Internet access, 254 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,400 with a million shifts and changes over the years, that 255 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,240 feeling started to slip away. 256 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,400 The boundaries of the place that held the Internet started to 257 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:09,405 blur. Now I don't go to the Internet in the way I go to a 258 00:17:09,405 --> 00:17:12,685 chain restaurant like Olive Garden. It's more like I can 259 00:17:12,685 --> 00:17:16,205 blink and suddenly already be inside an Olive Garden whenever 260 00:17:16,205 --> 00:17:21,050 I want. Like, the Olive Garden is grafted over my life where I 261 00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:24,490 can tap into the Olive Garden state of consciousness with a 262 00:17:24,490 --> 00:17:29,610 single swipe of my finger. We're obsessed that you're so 263 00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:30,010 obsessed. 264 00:17:30,815 --> 00:17:35,935 So Olive Garden's fan favorites are back. When we come back, I'm 265 00:17:35,935 --> 00:17:41,295 gonna bring back Catherine D to discuss a more metaphysical look 266 00:17:41,295 --> 00:18:01,355 at the placeness of the Internet. Catherine D. And I 267 00:18:01,355 --> 00:18:05,035 talked a lot about the hypnotic nature of logging on. The 268 00:18:05,035 --> 00:18:08,875 computer room and the computer that dwelled inside it served as 269 00:18:08,875 --> 00:18:10,475 a portal to the Internet. 270 00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:15,910 All I had to do was turn it on, log in, and let myself be taken 271 00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:20,630 away. And being taken away is really how it felt. Sure. My 272 00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:23,815 physical self was glued to the swivel chair sitting with my 273 00:18:23,815 --> 00:18:28,135 legs all pretzel together. But my emotional self had crossed a 274 00:18:28,135 --> 00:18:32,695 threshold into this other intangible place where Myspace 275 00:18:32,695 --> 00:18:37,180 existed, an AOL Instant Messenger, where the giant 276 00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:39,260 omelet in Neopets existed. 277 00:18:39,980 --> 00:18:43,020 Katherine Dee: We've all done it. Right? Just totally slipping 278 00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:46,540 into this other place, this like trance like state. And the 279 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:51,980 computer room was like the dedicated space where you would 280 00:18:52,755 --> 00:18:56,755 slip into this other world. All I I mean, I really did feel like 281 00:18:56,755 --> 00:18:59,555 I was going somewhere else. 282 00:19:00,115 --> 00:19:03,715 And I was like blocking out the world around me. 283 00:19:03,875 --> 00:19:06,650 Georgia Hampton: But it helped that my physical body never 284 00:19:06,650 --> 00:19:10,650 moved from that swivel chair. It made the hypnotic nature of me 285 00:19:10,650 --> 00:19:16,170 logging on feel more akin to meditation or falling asleep. An 286 00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:19,515 experience that felt comfortable in part because I knew exactly 287 00:19:19,515 --> 00:19:23,195 where I'd be when I decided to return to consciousness. When I 288 00:19:23,195 --> 00:19:27,995 logged off, I knew exactly where I was because I never left. 289 00:19:29,355 --> 00:19:32,075 Katherine Dee: Something that was good about a a computer room 290 00:19:32,075 --> 00:19:34,650 is even though you maybe you would get swept away 291 00:19:34,650 --> 00:19:37,930 temporarily, something about like logging on and logging off, 292 00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:40,170 having to, you know, you have to go to the bathroom. So you type 293 00:19:40,170 --> 00:19:46,075 AFK. Things like that are I mean, keep us keep us connected 294 00:19:46,075 --> 00:19:49,675 to the physical world. There's a physical reminder. Now, you 295 00:19:49,675 --> 00:19:52,635 know, like, theoretically, like, you you know, you take your 296 00:19:52,635 --> 00:19:55,035 phone into the bathroom or eating dinner. 297 00:19:55,035 --> 00:19:57,115 Right? Like, there's no there's no break. 298 00:19:57,915 --> 00:20:00,420 Georgia Hampton: With the ability to pass through portal 299 00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:04,100 of the internet whenever we want, we fade in and out of that 300 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:10,260 trance like state as we please. Or even without realizing it. I 301 00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:13,940 have certainly been guilty of absentmindedly opening Instagram 302 00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:17,195 when I didn't even notice I was doing it. And by the time I 303 00:20:17,195 --> 00:20:21,435 recognize what I did, I've already started scrolling. In a 304 00:20:21,435 --> 00:20:25,275 New York Times opinion piece from October, Katherine wrote 305 00:20:25,275 --> 00:20:28,875 about how the internet as it exists now, ubiquitous, 306 00:20:28,955 --> 00:20:34,170 hypnotic, and enticing, is something called an other world. 307 00:20:36,330 --> 00:20:40,410 Katherine Dee: An other world, the way I use it at least, is a 308 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:45,210 world that exists simultaneous to our own and that you you go 309 00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:50,005 you go into it. It's like layered over the physical world, 310 00:20:50,645 --> 00:20:52,725 but it's a it's a separate space. 311 00:20:54,005 --> 00:20:57,045 Georgia Hampton: Historically, entering an other world could 312 00:20:57,045 --> 00:21:00,965 involve finding some kind of portal or path that would take 313 00:21:00,965 --> 00:21:04,440 you there. Like the River Styx, which led your soul to the 314 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,960 underworld of Greek mythology. And that passage across the 315 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,440 water served as a kind of existential transition into the 316 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,265 world you were about to enter. Crossing the River Styx would 317 00:21:16,265 --> 00:21:20,025 erase your memories that you accumulated in the world of the 318 00:21:20,025 --> 00:21:24,265 living. Passage into an other world could be a physical 319 00:21:24,265 --> 00:21:26,825 endeavor, but it didn't have to be. 320 00:21:27,305 --> 00:21:30,580 Traveling to the fairy land of Celtic lore was something you 321 00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:34,260 could do spiritually while leaving your body behind. The 322 00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:38,020 idiom of being quote unquote away with the fairies comes from 323 00:21:38,020 --> 00:21:43,515 this idea that your mind is in this other place. So like with 324 00:21:43,515 --> 00:21:44,715 with the internet, I mean, 325 00:21:44,715 --> 00:21:49,115 Katherine Dee: I think it's it's such a close analogy because 326 00:21:49,275 --> 00:21:53,355 you're staring into the screen, you know, you're staring into 327 00:21:53,355 --> 00:21:58,000 the the black mirror, you're scrying, right? And your 328 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,800 internal self is gone, is not here. And but your physical self 329 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,960 remains. And so it's like you're away with the fairies or astral 330 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,680 projecting or you're having an out of body experience. 331 00:22:10,845 --> 00:22:13,405 Georgia Hampton: It's entering a plane of existence that has a 332 00:22:13,405 --> 00:22:16,925 very different structure and an entirely different mode of 333 00:22:16,925 --> 00:22:22,205 operating. And just like a non place, the rules aren't always 334 00:22:22,285 --> 00:22:22,605 clear. 335 00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:26,530 Katherine Dee: You know, I think people wonder a lot, like, why 336 00:22:26,530 --> 00:22:29,730 do we behave differently online? Why are the social rules 337 00:22:29,730 --> 00:22:33,250 different on the Internet than they are in the physical world? 338 00:22:33,410 --> 00:22:36,845 And the answer, I think, is really simple. We don't have our 339 00:22:36,845 --> 00:22:41,885 physical bodies. So, of course, the rules are going to be 340 00:22:41,885 --> 00:22:46,445 different because not having the body changes things, not having 341 00:22:46,445 --> 00:22:47,565 the physical body. 342 00:22:49,165 --> 00:22:51,470 Georgia Hampton: Dis Disembodiment is a defining 343 00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:55,710 quality of the Internet as a place. Our disconnection to our 344 00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:59,870 bodies is a huge reason why the space of the Internet feels odd 345 00:22:59,870 --> 00:23:04,750 and ill defined. In the context of a non place, this physical 346 00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:08,745 abstraction is a tool that keeps us consuming. In other worlds, 347 00:23:09,065 --> 00:23:12,505 it's just another quality that needs to be handled with care so 348 00:23:12,505 --> 00:23:13,865 that we don't get lost. 349 00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:28,550 Katherine Dee: With fairy mythology, there's a lot about, 350 00:23:28,550 --> 00:23:33,030 you know, accidentally binding yourself to fairyland and not 351 00:23:33,030 --> 00:23:36,555 realizing it. And I think that happens a lot online because you 352 00:23:36,555 --> 00:23:39,995 get lost in the in the moment, or you don't feel the 353 00:23:39,995 --> 00:23:43,675 consequences, or the consequences sort of like arrive 354 00:23:43,675 --> 00:23:46,555 differently on the internet as they will in the physical world. 355 00:23:46,555 --> 00:23:51,080 Some people say, you know, say to imagine a a red string tied 356 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,120 to your wrist. The theosophists in particular spoke about a 357 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:58,120 silver cord that connects your physical body to your etheric 358 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:02,425 body, to the body that is out in the astral plane. So you don't 359 00:24:02,425 --> 00:24:02,985 get lost. 360 00:24:02,985 --> 00:24:05,865 So it doesn't get disconnected. I think a lot of people get lost 361 00:24:06,345 --> 00:24:08,665 because they don't they don't reground. 362 00:24:08,985 --> 00:24:11,305 Georgia Hampton: The computer room represented an 363 00:24:11,305 --> 00:24:15,750 architectural, emotional, and technological anchor and 364 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:19,910 permitted transition to the internet. It was the circle of 365 00:24:19,910 --> 00:24:23,910 mushrooms in the grass, the fairy ring. And traveling into 366 00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:27,590 another world is the work of intention, of seeking out the 367 00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:31,725 doorway and deciding to open it. But so much of how we use the 368 00:24:31,725 --> 00:24:36,285 Internet now is without intention entirely. We cross 369 00:24:36,285 --> 00:24:39,885 that threshold countless times every day, sometimes without 370 00:24:39,885 --> 00:24:43,245 consciously realizing what we're doing as we're doing it. 371 00:24:43,645 --> 00:24:48,980 The threshold blurs into nothing. We never leave. We 372 00:24:48,980 --> 00:24:54,340 never arrive. Non places are abstracted. They're 373 00:24:54,340 --> 00:25:00,125 architectural gestures that are defined by transition and only 374 00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:01,005 transition. 375 00:25:01,325 --> 00:25:05,725 They have no specificity, no grounding, no conclusion to 376 00:25:05,725 --> 00:25:10,845 offer us. We can scroll forever without fear that we will reach 377 00:25:10,845 --> 00:25:19,030 the end. It's the infinite moving sidewalk. And I wonder 378 00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:23,670 what that state of constant transition means about where the 379 00:25:23,670 --> 00:25:28,605 Internet is. If the Internet is anywhere I am, does that make 380 00:25:28,605 --> 00:25:32,925 the Internet a place or infinite places? 381 00:25:33,805 --> 00:25:38,605 Katherine Dee: I think it's one big other world that we can't we 382 00:25:38,605 --> 00:25:43,670 can't see it. There's no map to it. And it I mean, it it it 383 00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:49,510 holds it holds the full the full range of expression. It's not an 384 00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:52,310 evil place. Evil exists there. 385 00:25:52,550 --> 00:25:54,870 It's not a place that you should never travel to, but you should 386 00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:57,110 travel to you should travel to it with awareness. 387 00:25:57,655 --> 00:26:01,415 Georgia Hampton: This idea feels really, really comforting to me 388 00:26:01,575 --> 00:26:05,655 because I want the Internet to still feel like a single 389 00:26:05,975 --> 00:26:12,160 recognizable place I go to, spend time in, and leave. I kind 390 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,680 of still need the computer room to exist, even if it's just in 391 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,880 my mind. But why? Why do I need that? 392 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,160 Katherine Dee: I think it's just the way we we process as humans, 393 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,235 we process reality. Like, how could you not be in a place? You 394 00:26:28,235 --> 00:26:30,795 know, if you're spending so much time there, there's so much, 395 00:26:30,795 --> 00:26:35,435 like, spiritual and, you know, paranormal, like, stories that 396 00:26:35,435 --> 00:26:38,955 come out of these things. Right? Like, spiritualism was, you 397 00:26:38,955 --> 00:26:40,875 know, partially created because of the telegraph. 398 00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:45,990 There's this idea of this is something beyond the veil. How 399 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:50,710 could information be moving across the ocean? How are we 400 00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:53,990 talking to people that are far away? And so we imagine that 401 00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:57,175 there's something there, like we're we're going somewhere. 402 00:26:58,535 --> 00:27:01,495 Just thinking of it, literally, I think kind of breaks our 403 00:27:01,495 --> 00:27:03,015 brains a little bit. 404 00:27:03,015 --> 00:27:06,455 So we create this we create the story around it. Like, it must 405 00:27:06,455 --> 00:27:09,930 be the spirit world. Right? There must be it's a nonmaterial 406 00:27:09,930 --> 00:27:12,730 world. It's not just technology to it. 407 00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:16,570 It's a the technology is allowing us to act to to pierce 408 00:27:16,570 --> 00:27:17,770 the thing we cannot see. 409 00:27:35,550 --> 00:27:38,510 Georgia Hampton: Thank you so much to Charles Sokop and 410 00:27:38,510 --> 00:27:42,590 Katherine Dee for taking me in and through and out of the place 411 00:27:42,590 --> 00:27:46,190 of the Internet. Charles told me that for the most part, you can 412 00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:49,950 find him in obscure journals, so it's best to Google him. And 413 00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:56,225 that's Charles, s o u k o p. Katherine Dee can be found at 414 00:27:56,225 --> 00:28:00,225 default.blog, where you can read about other worlds and the 415 00:28:00,225 --> 00:28:05,630 Internet and so much more. To find me or any of us on 416 00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:08,190 Neverpost, you already know where to go. 417 00:28:08,670 --> 00:28:12,430 Every possible way of reaching us is down in the show notes. 418 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:35,450 Mike Rugnetta: Post producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia 419 00:28:35,450 --> 00:28:38,250 Hampton, and the mysterious doctor first name, last name. 420 00:28:38,250 --> 00:28:41,610 Our senior producer is Hans Buetow. Our executive producer 421 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:45,130 is Jason Oberholtzer. The show's host, that's me, is Mike 422 00:28:45,130 --> 00:28:54,225 Rugnetta. Never Post is a production of Charts and 423 00:28:54,225 --> 00:28:57,425 Leisure, and it's distributed by Radiotopia.