1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,120 Jason Oberholtzer: Friends, hello and welcome to Never Post, 2 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:13,200 a podcast for and about the Internet. I am your executive 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:19,095 producer, Jason Oberholzer, here with a poll from the archives. 4 00:00:19,255 --> 00:00:27,575 The year, 2024. The month, April. The day, the tenth. 5 00:00:28,055 --> 00:00:31,740 We released into the unsuspecting world an episode of 6 00:00:31,740 --> 00:00:35,740 devastating import, including our first contributing producer 7 00:00:35,740 --> 00:00:40,885 piece by Marie Kolaru and Georgia reading for any choice 8 00:00:40,885 --> 00:00:46,165 unrequited love song for the Panopticon. And yet, none of 9 00:00:46,165 --> 00:00:48,405 those things is what I'm bringing you today. I am 10 00:00:48,405 --> 00:00:51,285 bringing you something fun because if there's one thing you 11 00:00:51,285 --> 00:00:58,670 know about me, I love fun. And on that fateful day in 2024, I 12 00:00:58,670 --> 00:01:02,830 had fun with our pal, Charlie Harding. You know him, you love 13 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:03,230 him. 14 00:01:03,230 --> 00:01:06,590 He switched on pop. Music journalist professor all around 15 00:01:06,590 --> 00:01:11,435 great hang. Charlie and I talked about what sounds like the 16 00:01:11,435 --> 00:01:17,195 Internet. Like, what music sounds like the Internet. 17 00:01:17,275 --> 00:01:20,155 Historically speaking, the kinds of sounds that when you hear 18 00:01:20,155 --> 00:01:24,110 them, you say, ah, that That's the Internet. 19 00:01:24,510 --> 00:01:28,990 And why am I bringing this to you now? Well, I think it's 20 00:01:28,990 --> 00:01:32,590 nothing more than the perhaps misguided hope that you too 21 00:01:33,150 --> 00:01:37,255 might like fun. And that in this month of all months, it might 22 00:01:37,255 --> 00:01:41,895 feel good to have some fun. So without further ado, on the 23 00:01:41,895 --> 00:01:45,015 other side of these commercials which I suppose is a do you will 24 00:01:45,015 --> 00:01:49,370 have to deal with if you are not on the member feed, I bring you 25 00:01:49,370 --> 00:02:26,420 back in time to Charlie Harding and I talking noise. So a couple 26 00:02:26,420 --> 00:02:30,020 weeks ago, the Never Post editorial crew was trying to 27 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:32,875 answer for ourselves a question. 28 00:02:33,195 --> 00:02:39,595 What does the internet sound like? And the first band that 29 00:02:39,595 --> 00:02:43,115 came to mind was one hundred Gex. I think in some part 30 00:02:43,115 --> 00:02:46,920 because of a conversation that we remembered our guest having 31 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:58,120 on his podcast, Switched On Pop. Charlie Harding is a singer 32 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,520 songwriter music producer, co author of the book Switched On 33 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,445 Pop, How Popular Music Works and Why It Matters, and a co host of 34 00:03:04,445 --> 00:03:07,725 the podcast already named Switched on Pop. Charlie, 35 00:03:07,725 --> 00:03:08,285 welcome. 36 00:03:08,285 --> 00:03:09,325 Charlie Harding: Thanks for having me. 37 00:03:09,325 --> 00:03:13,005 Jason Oberholtzer: So a year ago, and change, you said in 38 00:03:13,005 --> 00:03:17,645 talking about 100 that they were the sound of the Internet. Yeah. 39 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:22,740 It seems to be immediately, obviously, spinal cord level 40 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:26,180 true, and I wonder why. 41 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:28,980 Charlie Harding: My reaction to a hundred Gex sounding like the 42 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:31,915 Internet was a off the cuff honest reaction. It was not a 43 00:03:31,915 --> 00:03:36,075 particularly thought out one. It just is sounds like the accurate 44 00:03:36,075 --> 00:03:41,195 word to describe it. You have the bad cheap samples of guitars 45 00:03:41,195 --> 00:03:45,390 on a song like Money Machine. Weird fomented, shifted vocals 46 00:03:45,390 --> 00:03:50,910 that feel like they've gone through some bad kazaw and 47 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:53,390 compression and lossiness. 48 00:03:53,790 --> 00:03:56,830 There's this capitalist obsession with wealth and their 49 00:03:56,830 --> 00:04:00,195 music feels like a mash up of everything. Country, dubstep, 50 00:04:00,195 --> 00:04:03,955 trap, nu metal, SoundCloud rap, beeps and bloops everywhere in 51 00:04:03,955 --> 00:04:04,595 the background. 52 00:04:04,835 --> 00:04:08,915 Jason Oberholtzer: Completely unprocessed sine waves. Things 53 00:04:08,915 --> 00:04:09,075 that 54 00:04:09,075 --> 00:04:12,515 Charlie Harding: are distorted and and and pushed beyond the 55 00:04:12,515 --> 00:04:15,600 clipping stage of limiters Yeah. Just to like grate you and be 56 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,200 abrasive. I mean, the abrasiveness of it feels like 57 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,600 it's the sound of the Internet. Like it sounds like it's the 58 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,320 sound of QAnon. It's interwoven, it's messy, it's complex, it's 59 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:26,720 stupid. 60 00:04:27,065 --> 00:04:30,185 Yeah. Like they they are good at taking things that are 61 00:04:30,185 --> 00:04:34,745 aesthetically low culture and making it high culture in much 62 00:04:34,745 --> 00:04:37,385 the way that the Internet functions. Yeah. That is just 63 00:04:37,465 --> 00:04:41,060 that's the sound. I think that though we've heard the sounds of 64 00:04:41,060 --> 00:04:45,700 the Internet since really the dawn of at least the consumer 65 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:46,420 Internet. 66 00:04:46,420 --> 00:04:48,340 Jason Oberholtzer: And so where do we wanna peg that? The World 67 00:04:48,340 --> 00:04:52,980 Wide Web of the nineties or like DARPA? Or where do we think 68 00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:53,985 there was a sound? 69 00:04:53,985 --> 00:04:55,265 Charlie Harding: You You know, I'm sure there was a DARPA 70 00:04:55,265 --> 00:04:59,265 sound, like some like humming, like server room running the 71 00:04:59,265 --> 00:04:59,825 Internet. 72 00:04:59,825 --> 00:05:00,225 Jason Oberholtzer: Sure. 73 00:05:00,225 --> 00:05:02,305 Charlie Harding: Some very clacky keys on some old 74 00:05:02,305 --> 00:05:08,520 machines. But I honestly think that you could say that the AOL 75 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,840 dial up tone isn't just the sound of the Internet. It is the 76 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:18,600 sound that inspires glitch music, hyper pop. I think it is 77 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:25,155 the or text of the sound of the Internet. You have harsh, 78 00:05:25,235 --> 00:05:27,555 unpleasant, unexpected sounds. 79 00:05:27,555 --> 00:05:31,955 They are brash. They happen in an unexpected order. There are 80 00:05:32,755 --> 00:05:36,130 insertions of all kinds of different colors of noise, all 81 00:05:36,130 --> 00:05:38,930 controlled by monopolistic telecommunications company. 82 00:05:38,930 --> 00:05:41,730 Like, the sound of AOL metaphorizes the entire 83 00:05:41,730 --> 00:05:43,890 experience of being on the Internet. 84 00:05:44,610 --> 00:05:46,130 Jason Oberholtzer: So what's really interesting to me about 85 00:05:46,130 --> 00:05:50,515 that is when I try to envision what the earliest sounds are 86 00:05:50,515 --> 00:05:53,155 that we could all agree, yes, that sounds like the Internet. 87 00:05:53,155 --> 00:05:56,595 It is technology focused. So Yeah. I think you could make 88 00:05:56,595 --> 00:06:00,435 arguments for going back as far as like the nineteen sixties and 89 00:06:00,435 --> 00:06:04,995 like Morton Subotnick and music made by computers that clacked 90 00:06:04,995 --> 00:06:08,850 and glitched and was kind of almost an AOL dial up 91 00:06:08,850 --> 00:06:17,330 experience. After that, I think the technology of computers 92 00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:20,530 meshes with the technology of like synthesized music in a way. 93 00:06:21,195 --> 00:06:23,835 And the weirdest part of that timeline, whenever I try to 94 00:06:23,835 --> 00:06:28,155 think about it, is where do you put craft work? And does craft 95 00:06:28,155 --> 00:06:29,595 work sound like the Internet? 96 00:06:29,835 --> 00:06:31,035 Charlie Harding: Definitely. I mean, I feel like they're 97 00:06:31,035 --> 00:06:39,060 evoking all this idea of robotics and post humanism. The 98 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:44,740 old synthesizers that people would have to patch together 99 00:06:44,740 --> 00:06:47,875 used various patch cables that might have been used in like a 100 00:06:47,875 --> 00:06:50,435 telephone operating set. In fact, Sure. Know, the images of 101 00:06:50,435 --> 00:06:54,515 like Wendy Carlos operating her early modular synthesizer Yeah. 102 00:06:54,595 --> 00:06:57,155 Feels like it could be a telephone operator. So there is 103 00:06:57,155 --> 00:07:00,195 this interwovenness between the sounds of those machines, how 104 00:07:00,195 --> 00:07:03,360 they're how they're actually patched together, what they even 105 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,000 look like. And the fact that I mean, if we wanna go way way way 106 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,600 way way way way back to the nineteenth century, the 107 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,400 Tellaharmonium was one of the first synthesizers ever created. 108 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:17,675 It was this like giant multi 100 ton machine, and its goal was to 109 00:07:18,395 --> 00:07:21,675 generate, I think like sine waves that would make music that 110 00:07:21,675 --> 00:07:24,075 would be played over telecommunication networks, 111 00:07:24,075 --> 00:07:25,995 really early phone networks. Yeah. 112 00:07:25,995 --> 00:07:28,330 So there's there's an interwoven history between I think all 113 00:07:28,330 --> 00:07:32,010 synthesized music and things that make bleep bloops and our 114 00:07:32,010 --> 00:07:34,410 our relationship to digital technology and communications. 115 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:36,890 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. Totally. And other synthesized 116 00:07:36,890 --> 00:07:39,365 elements like the eight zero eight. The eight zero eight is 117 00:07:39,365 --> 00:07:42,405 like the most important thing in modern music probably Yeah. 118 00:07:42,405 --> 00:07:45,045 Developed in the eighties alongside synthesizers. 119 00:07:45,205 --> 00:07:48,885 And you think planet rock, which is actually referencing craft 120 00:07:48,885 --> 00:07:49,125 work 121 00:07:49,285 --> 00:07:49,525 Charlie Harding: Yeah. 122 00:07:49,525 --> 00:07:51,205 Jason Oberholtzer: Early example of using an eight zero eight. 123 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:00,720 And in some ways, influences the sound of like the future. Yeah. 124 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,240 I think it's very hard to parse what is supposed to sound like 125 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,000 quote, the future Mhmm. And what is supposed to sound like the 126 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:08,400 Internet. 127 00:08:08,535 --> 00:08:11,415 Because for a while, they were kind of the same vision. 128 00:08:11,575 --> 00:08:15,335 Charlie Harding: So many of the essential sounds of contemporary 129 00:08:15,335 --> 00:08:19,015 popular music were failed hardware devices that were made 130 00:08:19,015 --> 00:08:21,895 by the Roland Corporation in Japan. And the height of Japan 131 00:08:21,895 --> 00:08:24,000 and sort of all the vision of technology in the future that 132 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,240 Japan represented. And they would make these devices like 133 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,520 the eight zero eight or the three zero three base machine. 134 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,560 These devices were failures when they came out and were later 135 00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:36,560 rediscovered in pawn shops by hip hop producers and other, you 136 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:41,075 know, trans and house producers and repurposed and made in very 137 00:08:41,075 --> 00:08:44,355 sort of DIY environments, there is something also about the 138 00:08:44,355 --> 00:08:48,995 sound of the Internet, which is that DIY piece it together kind 139 00:08:48,995 --> 00:08:49,875 of aesthetic. 140 00:08:49,875 --> 00:08:53,130 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Okay. So, you know, we start with sine 141 00:08:53,130 --> 00:08:56,010 wave experiments at the turn of the century. Apparently, we have 142 00:08:56,010 --> 00:09:00,090 computers in the nineteen fifties and sixties and craft 143 00:09:00,090 --> 00:09:01,530 work in the seventies. 144 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:01,850 Charlie Harding: Mhmm. 145 00:09:01,850 --> 00:09:03,930 Jason Oberholtzer: We have in the eighties, a new wave of 146 00:09:03,930 --> 00:09:08,005 synthesizers and drum machines and Mhmm. We emerge into the 147 00:09:08,005 --> 00:09:09,765 nineties, which is kind of where we started this conversation 148 00:09:09,765 --> 00:09:13,205 with Yeah. The world wide web as a place where a lot of the 149 00:09:13,205 --> 00:09:18,565 aesthetic was DIY, repurpose. I think the other thing was like 150 00:09:18,565 --> 00:09:21,250 academia and colleges. Certainly, the people who would 151 00:09:21,250 --> 00:09:23,730 be listening to a Morton Subotnick and like having ideas 152 00:09:23,730 --> 00:09:27,410 about it, meets like people who would be sharing files on Usenet 153 00:09:27,410 --> 00:09:29,250 and the kinds of things they would be interested in. 154 00:09:29,250 --> 00:09:29,970 Charlie Harding: Right. Right. 155 00:09:29,970 --> 00:09:32,610 Jason Oberholtzer: And to me, that all wraps up into what I 156 00:09:32,610 --> 00:09:36,565 call like the snow crash era of how we think about what the 157 00:09:36,565 --> 00:09:37,845 Internet should sound like. 158 00:09:37,845 --> 00:09:38,245 Charlie Harding: Right. 159 00:09:38,245 --> 00:09:40,805 Jason Oberholtzer: Virtual reality ninjas doing weird 160 00:09:40,805 --> 00:09:41,845 hacker stuff. 161 00:09:42,885 --> 00:09:45,125 Charlie Harding: The music that we start to download at that 162 00:09:45,125 --> 00:09:49,270 time also I think influences the sound of the Internet. As the m 163 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:55,110 p three is developed, those really bad quality, lossy sounds 164 00:09:55,190 --> 00:09:58,230 I feel like a lot of trance music was being distributed to 165 00:09:58,230 --> 00:10:01,575 be listened to on Winamp. Like, I think of bad quality versions 166 00:10:01,575 --> 00:10:05,735 of De Rude's Sandstorm. But it sounds even like grainier and 167 00:10:05,735 --> 00:10:09,815 more more sandy because the quality is so bad, such that now 168 00:10:09,815 --> 00:10:12,375 we're in a time where we're actually nostalgic for that 169 00:10:12,570 --> 00:10:15,450 lossy sound. And there are now plug ins that emulate that 170 00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:19,130 lossiness that helped famously make the entire Phoebe Bridgers 171 00:10:19,130 --> 00:10:21,370 record sound so kind of nostalgic. 172 00:10:21,370 --> 00:10:24,410 Yeah. So the actual sounds that we're hearing also, I think, 173 00:10:24,410 --> 00:10:26,570 contribute to the feeling of the aesthetic of the Internet at 174 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:26,730 that time. 175 00:10:27,065 --> 00:10:28,985 Jason Oberholtzer: That makes sense to me a lot. I mean, so m 176 00:10:28,985 --> 00:10:33,545 p three arrived in 1991. Yeah. So that certainly lines up. At 177 00:10:33,545 --> 00:10:35,945 this point, it becomes interesting that the tech 178 00:10:35,945 --> 00:10:40,730 component of the sound converts from more hardware based Mhmm. 179 00:10:40,730 --> 00:10:44,970 To sort of more software or platform based. Limewire Right. 180 00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:45,850 Napster. 181 00:10:45,850 --> 00:10:47,290 Charlie Harding: Right. I think it's also worth pointing out 182 00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:50,010 that some of the music that's being distributed in more into 183 00:10:50,010 --> 00:10:56,035 the late nineties is often reflecting the anxieties about 184 00:10:56,035 --> 00:10:59,075 the Internet. I think about especially Radiohead's Okay 185 00:10:59,075 --> 00:11:02,675 Computer and probably I think of all songs that best represent 186 00:11:02,675 --> 00:11:07,960 that that work would be like fitter happier. Productive. 187 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:08,920 Okay. 188 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,320 And I can't on antibiotics. But probably I think like the sound 189 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,000 that captures it at that time for me is is Aphex Twin. 190 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:17,400 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. 191 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,520 Charlie Harding: Like a song like Peak eight two four five 192 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,975 four two zero one. The way that he's using these titles that 193 00:11:25,975 --> 00:11:29,735 might actually sound like usernames and a user forum, the 194 00:11:29,735 --> 00:11:33,895 images behind his albums look like cheap digital art. Like 195 00:11:33,895 --> 00:11:38,430 it's it's all in the digital culture of that time. And the 196 00:11:38,430 --> 00:11:41,710 sounds are I mean, they sound kinda like the AOL dial up 197 00:11:41,710 --> 00:11:42,270 tones. Right? 198 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:45,390 It's just like Yeah. Glitch, scratch, noise, unexpected, 199 00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:46,590 constantly changing. 200 00:11:46,830 --> 00:11:49,885 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I think even of I had Ottecra on my list 201 00:11:49,885 --> 00:11:55,165 for this period. Mhmm. So something like garbage m x. I 202 00:11:55,165 --> 00:11:57,565 think you play anyone Ottecra and they're like, yeah, that's 203 00:11:57,565 --> 00:11:59,165 computers or something. 204 00:11:59,485 --> 00:12:03,200 But there was also this thing around like The Prodigy. Yeah. 205 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,920 And like Right. European synth kind of dangerous music like 206 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,680 Firestarter that you would put behind people when they're 207 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:14,320 hacking in the movies and they're the cool dangerous ones 208 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,600 and that is the Internet. 209 00:12:15,695 --> 00:12:18,095 Charlie Harding: Yeah. This is like the movie, The Net, or 210 00:12:18,095 --> 00:12:20,815 better would be the soundtrack to The Matrix. The Matrix is 211 00:12:20,815 --> 00:12:25,375 basically soundtracked by Prodigy like tones. It's acid 212 00:12:25,375 --> 00:12:30,990 house, it's trance, it's the sound of a dark Berlin club with 213 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:32,670 green strobe lights. 214 00:12:36,990 --> 00:12:38,830 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I I think this is probably the last 215 00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:42,510 time where the Internet felt like a subculture enough. Yes. 216 00:12:42,715 --> 00:12:45,675 Something dangerous and foreign and subculture y could be a 217 00:12:45,675 --> 00:12:47,755 shorthand for what are they doing out there? 218 00:12:47,915 --> 00:12:50,875 Charlie Harding: Yeah. I mean, to your point, that sound of the 219 00:12:50,875 --> 00:12:55,035 Internet evolves from hardware to software because the Internet 220 00:12:55,035 --> 00:12:58,610 moves from being something technical to something seamless. 221 00:12:58,610 --> 00:13:02,610 Like, we are talking over the Internet now and it doesn't feel 222 00:13:02,610 --> 00:13:06,050 like a digital experience. It tries to be more human, more 223 00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:08,530 frictionless, doesn't require you to have any programming 224 00:13:08,530 --> 00:13:10,770 skills. You don't have to log into the net. 225 00:13:10,770 --> 00:13:12,690 Yeah. It's just seamless now. 226 00:13:12,850 --> 00:13:15,295 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Okay. Well, I think this takes us sort 227 00:13:15,295 --> 00:13:19,375 of elegantly into the social web of the arts. Mhmm. 228 00:13:19,375 --> 00:13:19,775 Charlie Harding: I think 229 00:13:19,775 --> 00:13:21,375 Jason Oberholtzer: it's sort of the next very definite Right. 230 00:13:21,375 --> 00:13:24,815 Period here. And this is when our mash up DIY culture starts 231 00:13:24,815 --> 00:13:28,060 to bloom. Right. People are making things on YouTube. 232 00:13:28,060 --> 00:13:31,820 People are accustomed enough to pulling things off of Limewire 233 00:13:31,820 --> 00:13:34,780 Napster and Kazaa to get all of their references in one place 234 00:13:34,780 --> 00:13:35,100 and 235 00:13:35,180 --> 00:13:35,500 Charlie Harding: Sure. 236 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:37,660 Jason Oberholtzer: The quality has improved somewhat on what 237 00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:41,205 you can find and so I think about Girl Talk. 238 00:13:47,765 --> 00:13:51,605 Charlie Harding: This is the time as even before Google as a 239 00:13:51,605 --> 00:13:55,310 motto was talking about the open web. They're like, we are an 240 00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:57,390 open company while other companies are closed. Like, 241 00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:00,270 there's still very much this open source culture that exists 242 00:14:00,270 --> 00:14:01,870 on the Internet, which does not exist. 243 00:14:01,870 --> 00:14:04,750 Jason Oberholtzer: And that also covers like mix tapes. Like, is 244 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:09,015 the middle Lil Wayne's famous run becoming the best alive on 245 00:14:09,015 --> 00:14:12,615 the back of easy sampling and mix tapes and a general sense in 246 00:14:12,615 --> 00:14:16,135 culture that you no longer had to show up with your own studio 247 00:14:16,135 --> 00:14:19,575 album of your own beats in order to be a participant. You could 248 00:14:19,575 --> 00:14:21,975 just use other people's beats better. Mhmm. 249 00:14:22,055 --> 00:14:24,090 Charlie Harding: And you brought up the social web. I think this 250 00:14:24,090 --> 00:14:27,930 is a time when the sound of the Internet actually becomes more 251 00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:31,130 community niche and platform based. Charlie x c x comes from 252 00:14:31,130 --> 00:14:32,890 MySpace. Yeah. SoundCloud rap. 253 00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:35,770 Carly Rae Jepsen is in many ways owes her career to Justin Bieber 254 00:14:35,770 --> 00:14:38,345 tweeting about her. Yeah. Justin Bieber himself was made on 255 00:14:38,345 --> 00:14:41,065 YouTube. And contemporary artists like Rina Sallayama or 256 00:14:41,065 --> 00:14:44,505 Jacob Collier are YouTube first. And so these these platforms 257 00:14:44,505 --> 00:14:48,025 sort of start developing their own subcultures that make their 258 00:14:48,025 --> 00:14:50,025 own sounds and communities. 259 00:14:50,345 --> 00:14:53,500 I think there's less of a monoculture sound of the 260 00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,060 Internet as different platforms develop. 261 00:14:56,140 --> 00:14:57,500 Jason Oberholtzer: One of the people I had in my list here 262 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:02,220 that I think is very interesting is Sonny John Moore. He was 263 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:05,695 originally first to last, which I think is the sound of the 264 00:15:05,695 --> 00:15:08,095 MySpace emo Internet of this era. 265 00:15:08,175 --> 00:15:08,895 Charlie Harding: And 266 00:15:10,575 --> 00:15:13,055 Jason Oberholtzer: then was Skrillex. Even the name 267 00:15:13,055 --> 00:15:16,495 Charlie Harding: Skrillex sounds like the sound of AOL dial up 268 00:15:16,495 --> 00:15:24,670 against Skrillex. And the song like Bangarang. Not only did it 269 00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:29,230 help propel dubstep to become the predominant genre for a few 270 00:15:29,230 --> 00:15:34,395 years, it was the most jarring Internet y sounding Yeah. 271 00:15:34,395 --> 00:15:40,955 Timbres. The tones are so unpleasant and so unexpected and 272 00:15:40,955 --> 00:15:41,995 over the top. 273 00:15:41,995 --> 00:15:45,515 Like, those sounds feel like the experience of being on the 274 00:15:45,515 --> 00:15:48,990 Internet. Like, the Internet is this jarring unpleasant place. 275 00:15:48,990 --> 00:15:51,470 And by the way, it's also fun and exhilarating and you can't 276 00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:52,190 get off of it. 277 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:54,590 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it has so many of 278 00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:58,110 the signifiers of, Tamberly, what you described. It's an 279 00:15:58,110 --> 00:16:01,695 abrasive technology. It's courting of unpleasantness and 280 00:16:01,695 --> 00:16:03,055 joy at the same time. 281 00:16:03,615 --> 00:16:06,095 And like humorous sampling. It's it's kind 282 00:16:06,095 --> 00:16:08,655 Charlie Harding: of Right. Right. Just a perfect Oh my god. 283 00:16:08,735 --> 00:16:09,295 Yeah. Right. 284 00:16:09,295 --> 00:16:11,855 That silly YouTube clip which turns into this like horror 285 00:16:11,855 --> 00:16:14,280 moment, but it's actually some girl stacking cups that she's 286 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,400 just done faster than any other person in the history. Yes. Oh 287 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,440 my god. 288 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,200 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Somewhere in the middle of this 289 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,880 run, Kanye started sampling YouTube clips. And that feels to 290 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,680 me like a wildly important moment for what it means to 291 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:29,720 sound like the Internet. 292 00:16:30,095 --> 00:16:32,495 Charlie Harding: That there's a way of claiming authority by 293 00:16:32,575 --> 00:16:35,215 referencing user generated content. 294 00:16:35,215 --> 00:16:35,535 Jason Oberholtzer: Right. 295 00:16:35,535 --> 00:16:37,375 Charlie Harding: What a shift of power dynamics. 296 00:16:37,455 --> 00:16:39,455 Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. Absolutely. The other thing that 297 00:16:39,455 --> 00:16:42,620 jumped out to me when you were talking there is humor. There's 298 00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:45,340 humor and frivolity, which we haven't kind of like got into 299 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:47,580 Charlie Harding: that much. Paranoid Android was not funny. 300 00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:49,900 Yeah. Apex Twin No. Is not that funny. 301 00:16:49,980 --> 00:16:53,020 Jason Oberholtzer: Is there funny music that's just funny 302 00:16:53,340 --> 00:16:57,425 that sounds like the Internet? So like early Lonely Island 303 00:16:57,425 --> 00:17:00,785 before they were SNL was 100%. An Internet viral phenomenon. 304 00:17:00,785 --> 00:17:04,225 But if you heard like dick in a box, out of context, would you 305 00:17:04,225 --> 00:17:07,745 be like, that sounds like the Internet. It's my dick in a box. 306 00:17:07,905 --> 00:17:10,465 The jokes are kinda Internet y, like where does that fall? 307 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:12,820 Charlie Harding: This is the thing of the Internet becoming 308 00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:15,220 more software. Actually, the Internet just becomes culture. 309 00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:18,580 And so Yeah. I think as the Internet becomes a more seamless 310 00:17:18,580 --> 00:17:22,340 consumer experience, it has less of its own distinct sound that 311 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:26,605 is tied to technology. We're no longer making films about the 312 00:17:26,605 --> 00:17:27,085 net. 313 00:17:27,085 --> 00:17:29,085 What's it gonna be? We gotta hack into these systems. Now 314 00:17:29,085 --> 00:17:33,325 we're making films about the future of AI and the 315 00:17:33,325 --> 00:17:36,205 interconnection between technology and and human spaces 316 00:17:36,285 --> 00:17:39,245 and cognition, things that we're fearing far off into the future. 317 00:17:39,245 --> 00:17:40,925 The Internet's kind of this, like, tame background thing 318 00:17:40,925 --> 00:17:44,240 that, like, maybe China stealing all of our data on TikTok. But 319 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,360 yeah, we'll just live with it. 320 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:48,640 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I think the final player here before we 321 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:54,000 get back to the contemporary moment is Twee ness. The thing 322 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,695 that always jumps to my mind is Zoe Deschanel 323 00:17:56,855 --> 00:17:57,095 Charlie Harding: Sure. 324 00:17:57,095 --> 00:17:59,335 Jason Oberholtzer: And Joseph Gordon Levitt in the early 325 00:17:59,335 --> 00:18:14,250 twenty tens. And something about that is YouTube based, is user 326 00:18:14,250 --> 00:18:18,970 generated, is vulnerable, is self produced, optimism of an 327 00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:20,010 Obama era, which is 328 00:18:20,010 --> 00:18:20,170 Charlie Harding: sort of 329 00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:23,850 Jason Oberholtzer: that sound feels like it came from the 330 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:26,010 Internet. Does it sound like the Internet? 331 00:18:26,725 --> 00:18:29,925 Charlie Harding: Not anymore because Tweet at one point looks 332 00:18:29,925 --> 00:18:33,925 DIY. It looks like the signs that everybody hung in their 333 00:18:33,925 --> 00:18:37,365 homes from Etsy for a while before they became mass market 334 00:18:37,365 --> 00:18:41,030 in every Airbnb. The problem is that sound becomes the sound of 335 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:43,990 corporate America. Basically, these sounds become safe. The 336 00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:48,550 sort of Twi ukulele music is akin to like Canva taking over 337 00:18:48,550 --> 00:18:52,475 Instagram, where all of a sudden everybody has access to these 338 00:18:52,475 --> 00:18:56,235 like kind of good design crafty tools and can make social 339 00:18:56,235 --> 00:18:58,795 movements into slide decks. 340 00:18:58,795 --> 00:19:02,075 And I I think I think that the corporatization of that sound 341 00:19:02,075 --> 00:19:04,395 really sort of neutered it of any power. 342 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,400 Jason Oberholtzer: I wanna take you to hyperpop now. I wanna go 343 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,575 by way of Vine and I wanna talk about Bill Wertz. And I wanna 344 00:19:17,575 --> 00:19:19,175 get us to hyperpop from there. 345 00:19:19,175 --> 00:19:20,855 Charlie Harding: I'm very curious because I my brain 346 00:19:20,855 --> 00:19:21,975 didn't go that direction. 347 00:19:21,975 --> 00:19:23,655 Jason Oberholtzer: The thing that I think is important about 348 00:19:23,655 --> 00:19:29,255 Vine is that it proved that you could make a community formed 349 00:19:29,255 --> 00:19:33,140 around snippets of primarily sound. And there's something 350 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:37,780 important about developing a sonic shorthand that was very 351 00:19:37,780 --> 00:19:41,540 self referential and directly talking about Internet culture. 352 00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:45,940 Yeah. And especially, think Bill Wertz is like the apotheosis of 353 00:19:45,940 --> 00:19:51,185 self referential Internet music that is also pointing towards 354 00:19:51,185 --> 00:19:55,185 the harmonic intricacies that hyperpop is about to pick up and 355 00:19:55,185 --> 00:19:56,465 mainstream. Hello. 356 00:19:56,465 --> 00:20:00,385 I'm a piece of garbage. You know, if harmonies change every 357 00:20:00,385 --> 00:20:03,330 six seconds, like a vine changes every six seconds, can we keep 358 00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:06,210 your attention on the form of this song? To me, that's kind of 359 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:09,570 like the hyper pop endeavor. What is love? Fruit. 360 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:10,370 Charlie Harding: No. Bread. No. 361 00:20:10,370 --> 00:20:11,970 Jason Oberholtzer: Fruit and bread. Probably not. Is it a 362 00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:12,850 conversation? 363 00:20:17,365 --> 00:20:20,085 Charlie Harding: Yeah. I I I did not know this lineage. Thank you 364 00:20:20,085 --> 00:20:23,845 for educating me. But the sound is spot on. It's also got those 365 00:20:23,845 --> 00:20:27,605 sort of cheap, like, MIDI sampler tones. 366 00:20:27,605 --> 00:20:31,320 It's not trying to do the recreate the sounds of the 367 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,320 perfect 1980 studio in the home. This is like acknowledging the 368 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:36,920 limitations of the tools at hand. 369 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,040 Jason Oberholtzer: And this is where I start to feel like video 370 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:45,275 game culture matters and Yeah. Of course. Inserts itself as one 371 00:20:45,275 --> 00:20:47,835 of the languages you have to know to say that you know the 372 00:20:47,835 --> 00:20:48,395 Internet. 373 00:20:48,555 --> 00:20:51,995 Charlie Harding: That's because the development of video game 374 00:20:51,995 --> 00:20:54,635 music is intertwined with the development of digital 375 00:20:54,635 --> 00:20:59,920 synthesis. Right? Each system as they developed from Atari to NES 376 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:05,360 to the Sega Genesis, you have these new chips that are able to 377 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,360 go from like making like really ugly only square waves to maybe 378 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:10,880 they can make like three different tones and eventually 379 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,935 get FM synthesis. And so the music program for those games 380 00:21:15,175 --> 00:21:17,815 really sort of mimic the experience of the synthesis 381 00:21:17,815 --> 00:21:20,535 techniques that your Apex twins are are playing with. 382 00:21:25,975 --> 00:21:28,615 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. So I passed us through Vine because 383 00:21:28,830 --> 00:21:31,230 I'm obsessed with Vine. But you you said, Charlie, that your 384 00:21:31,230 --> 00:21:34,830 brain took a different path to get to the present now. There's 385 00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:37,950 something you wanted to step back to. What path was that? 386 00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:40,830 Charlie Harding: For me, it all begins ten years ago in the 387 00:21:40,830 --> 00:21:46,035 creation of hyperpop, and specifically the label PC Music 388 00:21:46,035 --> 00:21:49,395 built by AG Cook and his larger community. With this really 389 00:21:49,395 --> 00:21:53,395 cheap looking digital artwork that could have been made as a 390 00:21:53,395 --> 00:21:58,910 MS Paint artwork. Yeah. And not solely the works of the sort of 391 00:21:58,910 --> 00:22:03,470 larger PC music label and community, but, you know, other 392 00:22:03,470 --> 00:22:12,270 extended artists like Arca, Sophie who's associated with 393 00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:17,845 this crew, start making music that is a nostalgic examining 394 00:22:18,165 --> 00:22:21,605 what the Internet has sounded like. And then not going to 395 00:22:21,605 --> 00:22:23,765 eleven, but going to like 11,000 Yeah. 396 00:22:23,765 --> 00:22:28,020 To be at the speed of the the Internet today. And so the video 397 00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:31,860 game sounds, the AOL dial up tones, all that Vine stuff 398 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:35,060 you're just talking about. Unpleasant clangorous Yeah. 399 00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:35,860 Confusing. 400 00:22:36,180 --> 00:22:39,060 Jason Oberholtzer: So I think that about circles where we are. 401 00:22:40,105 --> 00:22:44,425 Who is the sound? What is the sound of the Internet next? 402 00:22:45,065 --> 00:22:47,625 Charlie Harding: I feel concerned about the future sound 403 00:22:47,625 --> 00:22:48,585 of the Internet. 404 00:22:48,585 --> 00:22:49,065 Jason Oberholtzer: Okay. 405 00:22:49,065 --> 00:22:51,705 Charlie Harding: Like, we we have been so distorted and 406 00:22:51,705 --> 00:22:56,030 disoriented. Can we go any further down that route? I don't 407 00:22:56,030 --> 00:22:57,790 know. I don't think so. I hope not. 408 00:22:58,110 --> 00:23:00,270 Jason Oberholtzer: I mean, what normally happens after these 409 00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:03,470 moments of excess? Isn't Pendulums. Order reestablished? 410 00:23:03,470 --> 00:23:05,790 Charlie Harding: Isn't that traditionalism? Like, and aren't 411 00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:08,190 we already hearing that? Like, the rise of country music that's 412 00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:11,195 happening right now? That's gonna be the next vibe. Just 413 00:23:11,195 --> 00:23:12,635 return to traditionalism. 414 00:23:12,635 --> 00:23:14,795 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I'm struck with some irony. As I try 415 00:23:14,795 --> 00:23:17,275 to think about the extent to which I care about bringing AI 416 00:23:17,275 --> 00:23:20,075 music into this conversation, I'm struck by an irony that it 417 00:23:20,075 --> 00:23:23,595 seems like our progress in music that sounds like the Internet 418 00:23:23,595 --> 00:23:28,690 has been the human concern with making computerized music sound 419 00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:31,890 more and more like a computerized space, and continue 420 00:23:31,890 --> 00:23:36,210 to exceed the capabilities of an individual human's ability to 421 00:23:36,210 --> 00:23:39,730 achieve something, and to more and more fractured, and fractal, 422 00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:43,705 and wild, and painful dynamics. And then we are now introducing 423 00:23:43,705 --> 00:23:44,585 AI music 424 00:23:44,825 --> 00:23:45,145 Charlie Harding: Mhmm. 425 00:23:45,225 --> 00:23:47,705 Jason Oberholtzer: That is attempting to do the absolute 426 00:23:47,945 --> 00:23:52,185 opposite. Mhmm. Trying to simulate a traditional human 427 00:23:52,185 --> 00:23:53,705 output if possible. 428 00:23:53,785 --> 00:23:57,020 Charlie Harding: We've entered a moment where I just did a four 429 00:23:57,020 --> 00:24:00,460 part miniseries about Daft Punk on Switched on Pop. And I 430 00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:03,580 realized, of course, Daft Punk had to blow themselves up 431 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:07,900 because the whole image of the robot and their vocoder voice 432 00:24:08,105 --> 00:24:11,465 was about the fears and anxieties of technology from the 433 00:24:11,465 --> 00:24:14,585 nineteen seventies. And our fears of anxieties about music 434 00:24:14,585 --> 00:24:20,585 and art and our place in this world have so transformed that 435 00:24:20,585 --> 00:24:23,545 the image of these two robots kind of just turns into a joke. 436 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,120 Now, it's like, does this AI become sentient and make better 437 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,000 music than any human ever has? Does it become our overlord at 438 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:30,800 the same time? 439 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,920 It's a whole new set of fears and worries and how are we going 440 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,440 to respond to that? Yeah. Once it starts really playing in 441 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,615 commerce and messing with cultural expectations much more 442 00:24:40,615 --> 00:24:43,655 significantly on scale, then I think we'll see some very 443 00:24:43,655 --> 00:24:45,415 interesting art being created as a response. 444 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,160 Jason Oberholtzer: Charlie, thank you so much. This was an 445 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,200 absolute blast. 446 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,720 Charlie Harding: It was a joy. Thank you for inviting me. 447 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:57,440 Goodbye. 448 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: That is the archival episode we have for you today. 449 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,355 If you'd like to listen to the original upload with news and 450 00:25:09,355 --> 00:25:13,115 interstitials, you can find the link in the show notes. Never 451 00:25:13,115 --> 00:25:17,435 Post is primarily listener funded. So if you enjoyed this 452 00:25:17,435 --> 00:25:20,555 segment, please consider becoming a member at neverpo.st. 453 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,280 You can gain access to an ad free member feed while helping 454 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,120 us keep the show going. 455 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,800 Never Post's producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton, 456 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,600 and the mysterious doctor first name last name. Our senior 457 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,625 producer is Hans Buto. Our executive producer is Jason 458 00:25:35,625 --> 00:25:39,465 Oberholzer, and the show's host, that's me, is Mike Rugnetta. 459 00:25:39,945 --> 00:25:42,905 Never Post is a production of Charts and Leisure and is 460 00:25:42,905 --> 00:25:45,065 distributed by Radiotopia.