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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello
and welcome to Never Post, a

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podcast for and about the
Internet. I'm your host Mike

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Rugnetta, and we have a
methodical show for you this

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week. In this episode, I chat
with geneticist and science

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communicator Alex Danis, Emmy
nominee and science communicator

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Trace Dominguez, and molecular
biologist and science

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communicator Joe Hanson about
what it's like right now in this

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environment trying to
communicate with people about

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science. What helps, what
hinders, and what keeps them

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from losing their minds. But
first, we're gonna take a quick

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break and you're gonna listen to
some ads unless you're on the

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member feed.

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On Wednesday, February 25, the
United States Senate Health

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Committee held a confirmation
hearing for Casey Means who has

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been nominated by Donald Trump
to be the next surgeon general.

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For the unfamiliar, The US
surgeon general is often

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referred to as the nation's
doctor. They are a commissioned

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officer and the operational head
of the United States Public

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Health Service Commissioned
Corps. They report to the

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assistant secretary for health
who themselves reports to the

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secretary of health and human
services who right now is Robert

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f Kennedy junior. The surgeon
general is one of the country's

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foremost communicators about
health and related topics,

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guiding the country in its
understanding of important

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public health issues.

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The health warnings on both
cigarettes and alcoholic

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beverages called surgeon
general's warnings are perhaps

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two of the more notable impacts
made by office holders past. The

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office was established in 1871
and since then every US surgeon

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general has been a licensed
physician who finished their

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residency. This may change with
Casey Means who attended the

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Stanford University School of
Medicine, but dropped out of her

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residency to pursue a career in
functional medicine, which

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Wikipedia describes as quote, a
form of alternative medicine

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that encompasses many unproven
and disproven methods and

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treatments. Citation. Citation.

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Citation. At its essence, it is
a rebranding of complementary

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and alternative medicine,
citation, and as such is

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pseudoscientific, citation, and
has been described as a form of

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quackery. Citation, citation,
citation, citation, citation.

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Casey founded a practice in
Portland, Oregon which has

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closed. She does not hold a
medical license and works now

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mostly as an influencer.

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Her Instagram profile includes
photos and clips of her with

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Andrew Huberman, Joe Rogan, Bill
Maher, Tucker Carlson, as well

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as longevity specialists. And I
think the founder, but I'm not

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sure, of at least one skin care
brand whose primary spokesperson

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appears at the moment to be trad
wife Vundefrau, Nara Aziza

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Smith. Memes posts take aim at
what she calls ultra processed

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foods. She cites sourceless
statistics about increases in

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the prevalence of various
diseases, upticks in childhood

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onset, this and that, and speaks
in an alarming and in this

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administration very familiar
tone about all the ways various

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establishment forces conspire to
diminish the health of Americans

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or keep them from knowledge
about what true health really

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looks like. Like RFK junior and
so many others associated with

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the current American
administration, there are

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kernels of truth in her
criticisms.

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The American health care
industry is mismanaged, profit

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driven, exploitative. Many
Americans do have trouble

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getting access to nutritional
foods, but her responses to

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these issues often lead to more
questions than answers. Here's

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one clip of Casey chatting with
Joe Rogan. It's a minute and a

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half long, and I'm not gonna
edit it down so that you get the

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full, well, experience, I guess.

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Casey Means: We know a lot. We
have the technology, the money,

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and the resources to fix all of
this, the planet and health, and

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we're not. And that's why I
think there's something darker

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happening on, like, the
consciousness level. I think

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it's gonna be hard to get our
way out of this if we stick to

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partisan politics and quibbling
about individual policy ideas. I

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think it has to start with, are
we committed to life and to awe

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and to connecting with source
and then listening and moving

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our way out of here, or are we
not?

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And if we choose not, which is
what I think we're doing I mean,

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I think there's huge light
happening. That's why a lot of

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people are interested in this
issue right now. But, like, if

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we don't, I do think we're on
the road to existential disaster

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because we're that powerful now.
Step one is us deciding, like,

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what choice do we wanna make in
this lifetime. Do we wanna

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believe that life is a miracle?

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This universe is a miracle. Our
bodies are miracles, and we want

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to connect with God in this
lifetime. We wanna build and

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respect these temples that are
interconnected with the earth to

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do that, or do we not? And,
like, that's the choice we have

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right now. And I think we have
to take that very seriously.

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And I think a lot of the
political stuff that's

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happening, MAHA, it's all just a
reflection of people wanting to

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find a way to fight for life and
not knowing how. That's what I

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think is kinda happening here.

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Speaker 2: And wanting life to
make more sense.

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Mike Rugnetta: Casey does not,
at the moment, appear to have

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the votes to be confirmed as
surgeon general of The United

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States. Former surgeon general
Jerome Adams called her

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nomination incomprehensible.
Senate health committee chair

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Bernie Sanders said

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Bernie Sanders: I have very
serious questions about the

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ability of doctor Means to be
the kind of surgeon general,

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this country needs. Thank you
very much.

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Mike Rugnetta: She faced round
after round of tough questioning

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in her hearing about the
abortion pill, mifepristone,

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about the safety and
availability of birth control

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generally, about the importance
of vaccinations, specifically

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regarding measles, the flu, and
so on. Here is an early exchange

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between her and senator Bill
Cassidy, a physician and senior

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United States senator from
Louisiana.

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Speaker 2: And some have been
scared to vaccinate their

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children because they've been
told incorrectly that vaccines

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cause autism. Do you believe
that vaccines, whether

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individually or collectively,
contribute to autism?

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Casey Means: Senator Cassidy,
you're a physician. I'm a

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physician. The reality is that
we have an autism crisis that's

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increasing, and this is
devastating to many families.

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And we do not know as a medical
community what causes autism.

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The administration has just
committed a huge amount of

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funding to look at the exposome
of all environmental factors

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that could be contributing to
autism.

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And until we have a clear
understanding of why kids are

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are developing this at higher
rates, I I think we should not

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leave any stones unturned.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of
evidence showing that they're

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not implicated. Do you not
accept that evidence?

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Casey Means: I do accept that
evidence. I also think that

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science has never settled and I
think there is I think that the

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effort to look at comprehensive
cumulative exposures, of our

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exposome into what is causing
autism is important. And I look

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forward to seeing those results
and sharing the best public

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health information with the
American people.

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Speaker 2: Well, I got through
five out of my seven. So thank

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you for cooperating. Senator
Sanders.

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Mike Rugnetta: The phrase
science is never settled, the

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way it's deployed feels like a
weaponization. This phrase

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normally means almost the
opposite of what it's doing

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here. Science is never settled
when spoken by scientists means

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we commit to our knowledge until
evidence leads us to different

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conclusions. When spoken here by
means, it smacks of doubt and of

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conspiracy. It may be that Casey
Means does not become the

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Surgeon General, but she's
gotten this far.

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Her three hour hearing aired on
cable news, on C Span, and so

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on. Her ideas find purchase on
the biggest podcasts, on some of

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the largest news networks. She's
got nearly 850,000 followers on

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Instagram and as such our
president feels that she may be

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suited as the nation's number
one health communicator. Alex,

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Trace, Joe, and I don't discuss
Casey Means at all in the

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following conversation, but we
do discuss at length and in

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detail the environment that
empowered her and sustains her

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relevance. I wanted to get them
on as communicators, science

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communicators specifically, to
find out what it's like for them

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operating in that same
environment trying every day to

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engage in truth seeking and
publicly committing to science

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that, no, may not be settled,
but that doesn't mean that we

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lack confidence in it.

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That doesn't mean that it's
wrong. So after a short break,

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me, Alex, Trace, Joe. I've been
wanting to make this episode for

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a really long time, so I really
hope you enjoy it. Joining me

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are Alex Danis, Trace Dominguez,
and Johansson. Alex is a science

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communicator specializing in
genetics, biology, and

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chemistry.

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She's the cohost of the American
Chemical Society's series

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reactions and has partnered with
the Museum of Science in Boston,

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the Camille and Henry Dreyfus
Foundation, and many others. She

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has a PhD in genetics from
Stanford. Alex, thanks for

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joining us.

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Alex Dainis: Thanks for having
me.

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Mike Rugnetta: Trace Dominguez
is an Emmy nominated host,

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writer, and producer of science
programming. He's the

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coproducer, writer, and
presenter of PBS South Florida's

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show Stargazers, and EP and
cohost of the podcast, That's

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Absurd. Please elaborate. He was
a longtime producer at Discovery

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Communications and later Seeker
Media. Trace has a master's in

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public communication from
American University.

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Trace, nice to have you here.

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Trace Dominguez: Thanks.

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Mike Rugnetta: And Joe Hanson is
a producer, host, and science

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communicator. He is the creator
of Be Smart, an award winning

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YouTube science program produced
by PBS Digital Studios, as well

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as the host of Overview, a PBS
Terra series about nature and

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earth science, and high school
quiz show produced by WGBH. Joe

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has a PhD in cell and molecular
biology from the University of

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Texas.

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Joe, nice to see you.

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Joe Hanson: Always a pleasure,
Mike.

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Mike Rugnetta: When was the last
time all of us hung out

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together? Was it at a YouTube
EDU conference or a VidCon

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perhaps?

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Trace Dominguez: I feel like it
was one of those.

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Joe Hanson: Safe bets. Yeah.

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Trace Dominguez: It wasn't a
metal show or something like

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that, unfortunately, but it
would I wouldn't be surprised to

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see any of us there.

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Mike Rugnetta: We could make it
happen. If you guys come to

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Brooklyn, I'll take you out. We
can go see some Horrible Noise.

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Alex Dainis: Delightful.

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Mike Rugnetta: And it would be a
great time.

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Trace Dominguez: Sounds
cathartic.

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Joe Hanson: Great band name.

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Trace Dominguez: I would go see
Horrible Noise. Yes. Excellent

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band name.

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Mike Rugnetta: So I would love
to start maybe frustratingly

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broad here with a question that
you all maybe thought you had

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gotten past having to answer,
which is what is a science

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communicator? What do you do?
What what does your job entail?

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Trace Dominguez: Well, Mike,
obviously, we communicate

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science.

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Mike Rugnetta: But duh. Thanks,
Trace.

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Joe Hanson: Well, that's what
snides communicators don't do.

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They say duh real loud to
people.

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Alex Dainis: They really
shouldn't, but sometimes they

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do.

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Joe Hanson: Look, it's certainly
a field that's a lot of

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different things and and that's
that's what makes it exciting

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and challenging. It's it's a bit
of a a job title that crosses

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into journalism at points where
we need to be critical and and

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and weigh evidence and have
ethical responsibility to our

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communities. It's it's
educational at times. It's where

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we want people to take
information and use it for their

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own purposes and and for the
future. It can inform policy.

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It can try to debunk and and
keep people safe, from from,

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information and then help them
make good decisions. It's it's a

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million different things with
with potential, depending on the

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use cases.

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Alex Dainis: Yeah. My fun answer
is often that I get to talk to

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scientists all day and then be
loud about it on the internet.

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But that comes from a place
where I want to try and give

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people the vocabulary and the
knowledge and the ability to

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sort of look at their world in a
new way. And the best way that I

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can do that is through science.

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Trace Dominguez: Did you know
the term science communicator

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before you became one? Because
that I did not know that that's

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what I was doing for maybe three
years that I was doing it.

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Alex Dainis: Oh, yeah. I would
say I didn't I did not hear that

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term until I had been doing it
for about five years. I truly

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did not know it was a thing
until I had just been I I

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started just by making YouTube
videos about science as a hobby

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and it really was not until
about four or five years in that

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I was like, a, other people do
this. And they've thought about

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better ways to do it than I
have. And b, like, this is a

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field that has research about
it, that has best practices,

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that has, like, all this other
stuff behind it.

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Yeah. That was when I learned
the term science communication.

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I did not know it was a thing.

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Joe Hanson: You look back, if
you take a historical

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perspective on this too, you
know, every science

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communication conversation must
invoke the name of Carl Sagan

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within the first five minutes.
So we'll go ahead check out.

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Mike Rugnetta: We did it. That's
a

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Joe Hanson: good If you look
back at the time that he was on

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The Tonight Show with Johnny
Carson and publishing the the

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first great Cosmos series, He
was a popularizer of science.

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That's what people called him.
And there's this sort of, like,

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inherent framing there that that
science is this sort of

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underdog, like like, hated, you
know, like, bullied nerdy thing

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that needs to be helped out of
its and and and get that

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makeover. Just take off those
glasses, and everybody would

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would would fall in love with
it. And then there were people

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who were science writers and
science journalists in this sort

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of very serious gray suit kind
of newspaper attitude of the

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thing.

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And then you had your sort of
like essayists and people that

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are focusing on the
beautification of nature and the

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Rachel Carsons of the world. And
I think that that has sort of

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converged into this term that is
kind of hard to put a finger on

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because it encompasses all of
those things and more.

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Alex Dainis: And I think it's
changed quite a bit over the

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past ten, fifteen years that
we've all been doing this as

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well. Because I remember hearing
Ed Young, who's an incredible,

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you know, science journalist and
writer, talk about this at one

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point in time where he made the
distinction about a decade ago

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that science journalists should
be and can be critical about

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science whereas he felt that
science communicators were sort

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of in that science popularizers
sphere. But I think that's

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changed. I think all of us as
science communicators do feel

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like we are critical of science
at times and do try and take

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that more skeptical lens. But I
I think that that was not

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considered part of it a decade
ago.

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Trace Dominguez: I totally
agree. I think Joe listed so

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many things right off the bat.
Right? And I think one of the

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things though that science
communicators also do is they're

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part of the organization of
science itself. There are

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science communicators who work
for industry, whether it's in

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commercial or maybe they work in
academia or maybe they work for

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a science organization like Alex
is working for American Chemical

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Society.

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So she's involved in the
sciences directly almost as like

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an outreach component. I do
think there is a line between,

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like, science journalists in in
at least the science

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journalists' minds and science
communicators. But I think the

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science communicator umbrella is
is, like, above them whether

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they acknowledge it or not.
Right? They are communicating

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about science.

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They're educating the public,
but they're doing it from kind

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of like like, they're trying to
do it from an island looking at

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it as opposed to being amongst
it. And I think science

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communicators weighed in there.
And some of them are hyper

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involved. Some of them are more
kind of out on the on the fringe

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looking in. It's such a broad
term that it kinda took

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everybody's kinda come to the
same place, but it doesn't have

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a very solid meaning.

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And maybe that's why we hadn't
even heard it when we when when

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I started making science videos,
I was like science enthusiast.

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Like, I've used the term
curiosity explorer. Like,

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because there was just I didn't
know. Yeah. I didn't know what

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word Mike, you're making a face.

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It's the right face.

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Mike Rugnetta: It's good audio
content for me to just be making

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faces back here again. I'm
curious if if the three of you

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individually, not like thinking
about science communication as a

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whole or as a monolithic
pursuit, but if the three of you

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as people have, like, specific
objectives that you feel like

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you are aiming for within your
own individual practice of

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communicating with audiences
about the sciences.

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Trace Dominguez: I've always
thought of myself as that first

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line, you know, the science
teacher that you had when you

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were in seventh grade or eighth
grade or ninth grade, you know.

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I wanna, like, hook you in so
that you wanna, like, relay to

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somebody who's gonna tell you
even more, go even deeper. And

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I've also made shows that do
that. But like, mostly what I'm

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trying to do is get people who
may be not science critical

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because it's hard to very hard
to reach those people, but

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science interested. Maybe they
were like, I liked science but I

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didn't really engage with it in
school as much.

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Those are the people that are my
people. Like, I wanna try and be

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like, how about this cool thing?
How about that way of looking at

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your world? Maybe you really
like this thing in your world.

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Let me tell you some science
about it and see if maybe that

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hooks you in to go learn more.

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Alex Dainis: Yeah. I got a
comment recently on a video

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where someone said, I'm so glad
I have a scientist I kinda know

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that I can ask about this. And I
was like, that encapsulates

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exactly who I wanna be. I wanna
be the scientist you kinda know

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that you can ask about
something. And I feel like

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that's sort of how I set the
tone of the work that I do and

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some of the goals.

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But I think also, I am
personally seeing that we are at

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what I feel like is kind of like
the atomic age part two where

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like there's all this science
bubbling into like disc ourse

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and into all these direct to
consumer products that are

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coming out. And some of it is
good and some of it is bad. And

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I just want people to be able to
look at things and have a gut

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check on, like,

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Bernie Sanders: should we be
gene editing embryos or should I

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be sending my DNA to this
company or should I be like, I

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Alex Dainis: want people to be
able to have that gut check for

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themselves. And if they don't
have it, I want them to be able

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to trust me that I can be like,
hey, I can't answer this for

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you, but like, here's my gut
check on that.

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Mike Rugnetta: Walking Geiger
counter.

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00:19:58,795 --> 00:20:00,875
Alex Dainis: Yay. Yeah. I'll
take it.

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Joe Hanson: The needle is is
clicking.

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Bernie Sanders: Yeah. Yeah.

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Mike Rugnetta: So I think
related to all of these answers,

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all of these ideas, what I'm
interested in specifically in

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this conversation is your
perspectives on the information

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environment as it exists right
now, which I mean, talk about

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radioactive in some ways. We
know it's not great. We all live

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in it every day, especially in
The United States. But I suspect

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that the three of you are, like
I don't know if you're exposed

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to the, like, weirder or more
intense portions of it, or if,

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like, there are difficulties
that you encounter on a day to

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day day to day basis based upon
the work that you're doing. But

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I imagine that the three of you,
the very least, are thinking

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about it more than a lot of
other people as folks who are

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sort of engaged in the pursuit
of getting getting people to

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understand the world at scale
and, you know, the difficulties

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of that pursuit and how to
ameliorate those difficulties.

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So I wanna focus our chat if we
can for, like, a little bit on

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the forces that you see working
with and against the work that

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you're currently doing as
science communicators.

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Joe Hanson: Let me offer an idea
here. Because I'm realizing we

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all kind of have been doing this
for about the same amount of

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time. Like, we've all been
professionally on the Internet

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for about the same amount of
time. We're peers. Right?

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I think do you guys remember
there was this great sort of

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utopian idea that the
democratization of information

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was supposed to make everything
better.

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. We're all
stifling laughter. Yeah. Yeah.

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That's a bad side.

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Trace Dominguez: Let me just
lead with it. The number of

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times I say the Internet was a
mistake is more than zero. Yes.

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Joe Hanson: And I think we can
all I I we can point to ways

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that that's certainly true.
Right? I mean, it it has led to

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incredible things. But and
that's it's like

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Bernie Sanders: the

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Joe Hanson: most bolded large
font underlined but in the

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universe there. We I don't think
what we accounted for was this

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this rise of individualized kind
of bespoke realities coming

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along with it. And it's sort of
science sort of assumed for its

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entire history of the past few
centuries that it's been, you

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know, kind of a real thing that
there was a shared universal

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reality. And it's kind of a
truth that all scientists still

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kind of underlies the philosophy
of their work, right? That we're

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all living in the same place
made of the same atoms,

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etcetera, etcetera.

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But the information environment
has moved very far away from

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that shared reality.

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Mike Rugnetta: Yeah.

397
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Alex Dainis: I I agree with
everything that Joe just said

398
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and I think one of the ways that
that manifests in my day to day

399
00:22:53,375 --> 00:22:57,135
that is maybe the lower level
frustration, but the more

400
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obvious and in my face
frustration is that I hate

401
00:23:00,255 --> 00:23:03,400
debunking. I hate making
debunking content. It is my

402
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,920
least favorite content to make.
I find it, like, soul draining.

403
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,960
But the number of times where I
get requests or people send me

404
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things or they're like, is this
real?

405
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,120
Is that real? What's going on?
Can you make a video about this?

406
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,475
What do I do? Has just
skyrocketed.

407
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And I cannot and do not take on
most of the things that come in

408
00:23:23,595 --> 00:23:28,155
about that. But the need I'm
seeing from the audience has

409
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changed where it used to be just
like, cool content. Thanks guys.

410
00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:33,510
Like, this is fun. Mhmm.

411
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And now there are so many people
who are just like really

412
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:38,950
actively searching for like, I
don't know what's right or

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somebody sent me this or
actually, you know, this other

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00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:44,550
person on the internet who also
is wearing a white coat said

415
00:23:44,550 --> 00:23:48,655
this. Sure. And that has just
yeah. Sometimes you got to do

416
00:23:48,655 --> 00:23:50,335
it, right? Sometimes I'm like,
you know what?

417
00:23:50,335 --> 00:23:54,815
I have a PhD in RNA biology. Let
me talk about the RNA. You know,

418
00:23:54,815 --> 00:23:58,580
sometimes I feel like I have to,
but I've just seen that increase

419
00:23:58,580 --> 00:24:01,060
in people trying to figure out
what those realities are that

420
00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:03,620
Joe was just talking about has
surged.

421
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Mike Rugnetta: Do you think
those requests come from a place

422
00:24:05,620 --> 00:24:09,700
of, like, there's just more
stuff out there that's wrong?

423
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The audience is just more unsure
of what they're being shown, or

424
00:24:16,415 --> 00:24:18,815
is it both or some third thing?
Like

425
00:24:19,215 --> 00:24:24,120
Alex Dainis: It's probably both,
but I do feel I have no data to

426
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,160
back this up, but my gut check
is that there's also just so

427
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,440
much more wrong stuff out there.
Yeah. Right? When we all started

428
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,640
on the internet, yes, it was
democratized but it was also

429
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,275
smaller, you know? And so it was
easier for good stuff to drown

430
00:24:38,275 --> 00:24:41,715
out bad stuff and now everyone
has the ability to broadcast

431
00:24:41,715 --> 00:24:44,355
their every thought and second
into the ether.

432
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And I just feel like the by by
the nature of there being more

433
00:24:48,755 --> 00:24:50,995
content, there's going to be
more wrong stuff too that's

434
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harder to drift through.

435
00:24:52,330 --> 00:24:55,610
Joe Hanson: Because within these
bespoke realities, if you choose

436
00:24:55,610 --> 00:24:58,730
to interact with certain
individuals, certain subjects,

437
00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:02,170
certain tones of content, I
mean, a million different little

438
00:25:02,170 --> 00:25:05,690
handles that are being pulled by
the automated machines that are

439
00:25:05,690 --> 00:25:09,315
feeding it to you, you're going
to be able to just continue to

440
00:25:09,315 --> 00:25:11,475
interact with that content.
They're never going to see the

441
00:25:11,475 --> 00:25:13,955
debunking. They're never going
to see the correction. They're

442
00:25:13,955 --> 00:25:16,915
never going to see the good
information that could pre bunk

443
00:25:16,915 --> 00:25:19,715
that, which is a nice technical
jargony science communication

444
00:25:19,715 --> 00:25:20,035
term.

445
00:25:20,035 --> 00:25:20,355
Trace Dominguez: I like that.

446
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,720
Joe Hanson: You know, getting
ahead of of of the of the

447
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,600
wrongness. And that's the
eternal challenge. If someone

448
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,600
sends you something like this, I
think because they're appealing

449
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,680
to our authority, they're
appealing to our reach as

450
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,640
science communicators, like help
me. I'm just, you know, this

451
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,680
little person over here. But if
you could talk about it, people

452
00:25:35,955 --> 00:25:40,675
could could understand and and
everyone would see the truth.

453
00:25:40,835 --> 00:25:45,235
And the fact is that everyone
won't see the truth because we

454
00:25:45,235 --> 00:25:50,530
cannot, in some cases, break
through these digital walls or

455
00:25:50,530 --> 00:25:53,730
or in some cases, psychological
walls too, which is this totally

456
00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:58,130
other level of challenge that we
have in reaching some of the

457
00:25:58,130 --> 00:26:00,845
people that most need to hear
this stuff through all the

458
00:26:00,845 --> 00:26:03,645
cognitive biases and and things
that we're that we've realized

459
00:26:03,645 --> 00:26:06,445
we haven't cured yet either.
Yeah. There's we learned a

460
00:26:06,445 --> 00:26:09,565
Trace Dominguez: lot about this
in in like calm theory. Right?

461
00:26:09,565 --> 00:26:12,605
There's like peripheral
processing, which hits our

462
00:26:12,910 --> 00:26:16,350
emotions and our feelings a lot
more than than central

463
00:26:16,350 --> 00:26:20,030
processing, which is like an ad
from the ad council where it's

464
00:26:20,030 --> 00:26:22,190
like, here's this very
complicated topic and I'm going

465
00:26:22,190 --> 00:26:24,670
to try and get you interested in
it. You know? You know?

466
00:26:24,670 --> 00:26:27,710
Do you have a plan? Let's go
find a plan to make a plan so

467
00:26:27,710 --> 00:26:31,205
that you save your self in a
buyer. And it's like or we could

468
00:26:31,205 --> 00:26:35,365
just be like, fire, you're gonna
die. You know, like, the the the

469
00:26:35,365 --> 00:26:37,845
latter one is gonna get the
eyeballs, but it doesn't tell

470
00:26:37,845 --> 00:26:38,725
you anything. Yeah.

471
00:26:38,725 --> 00:26:42,325
And that's that's the Internet
is filled with the latter and we

472
00:26:42,325 --> 00:26:46,250
are trying to do some of we're
trying to, like, get people from

473
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:50,090
from that to come over to be
like, okay. So there was a fire.

474
00:26:50,090 --> 00:26:54,170
You're right. How could we
either prevent the fire or what

475
00:26:54,170 --> 00:26:56,915
you should do when you get
involved in a fire. But

476
00:26:56,915 --> 00:26:58,995
Mike Rugnetta: but meanwhile,
you are you're competing with

477
00:26:58,995 --> 00:27:00,915
fire watch twenty twenty six.

478
00:27:00,915 --> 00:27:01,235
Trace Dominguez: Where's the

479
00:27:01,235 --> 00:27:02,915
Mike Rugnetta: fire now? It's 30
feet away.

480
00:27:02,915 --> 00:27:05,075
Trace Dominguez: They have, like
It's 25 feet away. Theme.

481
00:27:05,075 --> 00:27:07,955
Mike Rugnetta: Give to our
Patreon to stop the fire. And

482
00:27:08,595 --> 00:27:11,900
Trace Dominguez: then there's
also an AI generated fire on

483
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:14,540
something important, and
everybody's like, no. This is on

484
00:27:14,540 --> 00:27:17,900
fire too. And you're like, no.
Then then Alex has to debunk

485
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,780
that that's an AI video, and she
can't be talking about how to

486
00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:23,660
save yourself from a fire. And
so it's just this constant

487
00:27:24,140 --> 00:27:27,555
battle of of of all of the
content.

488
00:27:27,715 --> 00:27:32,275
Right? It used to be that people
making content really wanted to

489
00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:35,475
make content. Not that they not
that it was hard. Right? There

490
00:27:35,475 --> 00:27:39,090
was that point where there was a
crossover between you had to go

491
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:40,050
buy a camera.

492
00:27:40,050 --> 00:27:43,170
There just wasn't a great camera
in your pocket. So if you wanted

493
00:27:43,170 --> 00:27:45,650
to look a certain way, you had
to go at least try a little bit.

494
00:27:45,650 --> 00:27:49,730
The the the word of the year for
for for me is '20 in 2026 is

495
00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:53,425
friction. There was more
friction. Now there is almost no

496
00:27:53,425 --> 00:27:55,905
friction to creating a bit of
content.

497
00:27:55,985 --> 00:27:59,825
And that means that everybody's
thoughts per what Alex has said,

498
00:27:59,825 --> 00:28:05,210
like, can be broadcasted at any
time. And we are terrible as a

499
00:28:05,610 --> 00:28:09,610
as an animal, as a species of
distinguishing between two human

500
00:28:09,610 --> 00:28:14,250
beings opinions as to which is
better. Like, we're really bad

501
00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:16,945
at that. We see them as, oh,
they're both people. They're

502
00:28:16,945 --> 00:28:17,345
equal.

503
00:28:17,345 --> 00:28:21,105
And then we use heuristics like,
oh, that one is this type of

504
00:28:21,105 --> 00:28:23,905
person, so I won't believe it.
As opposed to the information

505
00:28:23,905 --> 00:28:26,705
they're saying. We're just like
trying to find all these

506
00:28:26,705 --> 00:28:29,990
heuristics. And it's so much
easier on the Internet for the

507
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:34,630
robots to do some of that for
us, which is never helpful.

508
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:37,590
Mike Rugnetta: Is that what
accounts for, like I never had

509
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:41,670
to deal with this in, like, my
earlier Internet days, but I

510
00:28:41,670 --> 00:28:45,315
think I saw each of you do it in
one way or another. Just like

511
00:28:45,315 --> 00:28:51,795
talk against, say, flat earth
theory or try to convince people

512
00:28:51,795 --> 00:28:56,915
about climate crisis stuff.
Right? Like or extinction events

513
00:28:56,915 --> 00:28:59,555
or, like, the importance of
biodiversity, things like this,

514
00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:04,140
which is like, these are topics
that would be considered

515
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:09,580
controversial for a narrow
stripe of an audience and which

516
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:12,140
you would have to speak
carefully around, but which

517
00:29:12,140 --> 00:29:15,985
generally were understood to be
ideas and theories and

518
00:29:15,985 --> 00:29:19,105
situations worth discussing and
that held water and that, again,

519
00:29:19,105 --> 00:29:22,305
like, reflected some aspect of
reality. And it feels like over

520
00:29:22,305 --> 00:29:28,690
the last half a decade or so,
like, more and more topics of

521
00:29:28,690 --> 00:29:33,330
increasing granularity have
taken on the political valence

522
00:29:33,330 --> 00:29:37,650
that these large topics at one
point held.

523
00:29:37,890 --> 00:29:41,705
And just hearing you talk,
Trace, about, like, being in

524
00:29:41,705 --> 00:29:44,505
this, you know, the infinite
amphitheater, basically,

525
00:29:44,585 --> 00:29:46,985
subjected to everybody's
thoughts and opinions at all

526
00:29:46,985 --> 00:29:50,345
times, trying to use our dumb
animal brain to sort through

527
00:29:50,345 --> 00:29:53,385
into, like, what's, you know,
what's important. I wonder if

528
00:29:53,385 --> 00:29:56,025
these two things are, like, can
explain one another a little

529
00:29:56,025 --> 00:29:56,185
bit.

530
00:29:56,790 --> 00:30:00,150
Joe Hanson: Sometimes I ask
myself why people want to know

531
00:30:00,310 --> 00:30:05,910
true things. And for it for
certain, who knows,

532
00:30:05,910 --> 00:30:09,525
psychological profiles,
upbringings, you know, it could

533
00:30:09,525 --> 00:30:12,485
be the way we're born, the way
we're educated. For some people,

534
00:30:12,885 --> 00:30:17,525
for whatever reason, we want to
know true things because it just

535
00:30:17,525 --> 00:30:21,045
gives us a better true picture
of the universe. We can make

536
00:30:21,045 --> 00:30:24,250
better decisions that that lead
us to better success. Maybe it's

537
00:30:24,250 --> 00:30:24,810
adaptive.

538
00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:25,530
Maybe it's evolutionary.

539
00:30:25,530 --> 00:30:27,930
Trace Dominguez: It's so
satisfying. It's just satisfying

540
00:30:27,930 --> 00:30:32,410
to like, no. It feels good to be
like, I'm on solid footing.

541
00:30:32,410 --> 00:30:36,250
Joe Hanson: But I think for
other people, they don't share

542
00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:41,685
that basic that basic
perspective. And what they want

543
00:30:41,685 --> 00:30:46,165
to believe become these sort of
little external signifiers. They

544
00:30:46,165 --> 00:30:49,445
become sort of like human bumper
stickers. And the Flat Earth

545
00:30:49,445 --> 00:30:53,420
example is just a perfect
example of this. I promised long

546
00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:57,900
ago I will never make a Flat
Earth debunking video.

547
00:30:57,980 --> 00:31:03,340
The world just does not need
this because the people who who

548
00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:06,565
find themselves at Flat Earth
conventions and who find

549
00:31:06,565 --> 00:31:09,365
themselves as part of these
online communities did not find

550
00:31:09,365 --> 00:31:13,605
their way there because they had
some genuine scientific process

551
00:31:13,605 --> 00:31:18,165
that led them to observations
that this is the only remaining

552
00:31:18,165 --> 00:31:23,260
truth. They turn out to be
people who are seeking community

553
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:25,820
because they were excluded from
other parts of society. People

554
00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:28,860
who have had very difficult
traumatic experiences. People

555
00:31:28,860 --> 00:31:31,260
with very challenging
psychological profiles. People

556
00:31:31,260 --> 00:31:36,805
with really difficult histories
with information and being and

557
00:31:36,805 --> 00:31:40,965
belonging and feeling like they
were seen to be valuable.

558
00:31:40,965 --> 00:31:44,805
And the community took them in
and they adopted an idea that is

559
00:31:44,805 --> 00:31:50,540
frankly beyond belief for many
of us in order to stay belonging

560
00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:53,900
in that community. And it's the
perfect example of those sort of

561
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:57,580
signifiers that that people will
choose to wear despite how

562
00:31:57,660 --> 00:31:59,660
irrational they may seem to the
rest of us.

563
00:31:59,875 --> 00:32:02,595
Mike Rugnetta: And like, I think
sure, like, changing of the mind

564
00:32:02,595 --> 00:32:06,835
as a exhibit of weakness too.
Right? Is a huge part of it.

565
00:32:06,835 --> 00:32:07,715
Right? Change is weak.

566
00:32:07,715 --> 00:32:09,795
Alex Dainis: Yes. And I think
that's something I think about

567
00:32:09,795 --> 00:32:13,890
this a lot that when I was, I
don't know, in middle school and

568
00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:16,530
I'm gonna get the politician
wrong. But like the biggest

569
00:32:16,530 --> 00:32:17,490
thing that everyone was like,
he's

570
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:18,930
Bernie Sanders: a flip flopper.
Right?

571
00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:20,930
Alex Dainis: And that was the
worst possible thing you could

572
00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:24,130
be was a flip flopper, was to
change your mind. Once you had

573
00:32:24,210 --> 00:32:27,495
an opinion, you had to stick by
it. And that really at like

574
00:32:27,495 --> 00:32:30,775
nine, 10, or whatever stuck with
me so hard that like, well, once

575
00:32:30,775 --> 00:32:33,255
you believe something, you have
to stay with it. And it wasn't

576
00:32:33,255 --> 00:32:36,215
until I became a scientist
really where I was like, oh, no

577
00:32:36,215 --> 00:32:39,655
no no. Like changing your mind
when you get new information is

578
00:32:39,655 --> 00:32:41,095
the best thing you can do.

579
00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:45,140
But there was so much social
pressure against that for so

580
00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:48,180
long. And I think people still
feel that pressure to remain

581
00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:52,420
within communities. And I agree
with you, Joe, that the world

582
00:32:52,420 --> 00:32:55,540
does not need Joe Hanson to make
a Flat Earth video.

583
00:32:55,540 --> 00:32:57,365
Mike Rugnetta: Right? Like, we
don't need that. Us,

584
00:32:59,285 --> 00:33:01,925
Alex Dainis: it would be great.
But what we do need and what I

585
00:33:01,925 --> 00:33:05,125
think is compelling and is
helpful is people who were in

586
00:33:05,125 --> 00:33:10,245
those communities and have left
talking about what changed their

587
00:33:09,690 --> 00:33:12,970
mind and why they left and how
they found new community and

588
00:33:12,970 --> 00:33:16,410
that kind of thing. So I think
about that a lot that like, you

589
00:33:16,410 --> 00:33:19,690
know, none of us have been to my
knowledge flatters. None of us

590
00:33:19,690 --> 00:33:21,450
have been anti vaxxers. Right?

591
00:33:21,450 --> 00:33:26,135
But like where are those spaces
where we can amplify voices or

592
00:33:26,135 --> 00:33:29,175
try and lend our own voice to
like, hey, I changed my mind and

593
00:33:29,175 --> 00:33:32,295
it was okay and it was a good
thing and like talk about that

594
00:33:32,295 --> 00:33:35,175
process more. Because I also
think that from outside of

595
00:33:35,175 --> 00:33:38,190
science, people don't see that.
Right? They look at science and

596
00:33:38,190 --> 00:33:40,670
all they see is, you know, the
headline that says scientists

597
00:33:40,670 --> 00:33:44,430
said x. And when they see
scientists change their mind in

598
00:33:44,430 --> 00:33:47,470
light of updated data, like at
the beginning of the pandemic

599
00:33:47,470 --> 00:33:50,830
where stuff was updating all the
time because we were learning

600
00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:54,275
more, I think people saw that
and thought, oh, you lied last

601
00:33:54,275 --> 00:33:54,595
week.

602
00:33:54,595 --> 00:33:56,755
Oh, you didn't know what you
were talking about because now

603
00:33:56,755 --> 00:33:59,715
you're saying a different thing.
And I think we just need to do a

604
00:33:59,715 --> 00:34:02,835
better job of modeling that as
scientists that, like, no, no.

605
00:34:02,835 --> 00:34:06,435
Like, Pluto was a planet. Now
Pluto's not a planet, and here's

606
00:34:06,435 --> 00:34:07,395
why, and it's okay.

607
00:34:08,330 --> 00:34:12,570
Trace Dominguez: Yeah. My dad
growing up, he's a very nerdy

608
00:34:12,570 --> 00:34:16,650
man, but he has, you know, he
had planted flags in certain

609
00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:20,170
ways like everybody on, like,
opinions. And one of those, you

610
00:34:20,170 --> 00:34:24,555
know, I think the pandemic is an
easy one to find those moments

611
00:34:24,555 --> 00:34:27,675
of, like, you say flip flopping.
But he was like, I don't know if

612
00:34:27,675 --> 00:34:30,795
I should eat eggs. I don't think
I trust whether or not any of

613
00:34:30,795 --> 00:34:32,875
the, science is right on eggs.

614
00:34:33,035 --> 00:34:35,830
Because throughout his life, he
had heard eggs were bad and were

615
00:34:35,830 --> 00:34:38,150
bad for your cholesterol, and
then eggs were good for you, and

616
00:34:38,150 --> 00:34:40,710
then eggs were bad for you
again. And it was a nuanced

617
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:44,550
discussion that scientists were
having. But to your initial

618
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:49,155
question about forces against, I
have a thing that I talk to

619
00:34:49,155 --> 00:34:51,795
people about when we talk about
science communication, and that

620
00:34:51,795 --> 00:34:56,195
is using science words, which
make somebody feel like they

621
00:34:56,195 --> 00:34:59,955
have more authority. But because
you are using terms that

622
00:34:59,955 --> 00:35:03,360
scientists might use, whether
they are real or fake, They

623
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,240
sound science y enough. And so,
like, pop science, the coverage

624
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:13,200
of science outside of science
communication in local news or

625
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,285
in blogs or in people who just,
again, have a camera and pointed

626
00:35:17,285 --> 00:35:20,725
at themselves because they saw a
study somewhere, and now they

627
00:35:20,725 --> 00:35:22,485
wanna talk about the headline
that they saw.

628
00:35:22,485 --> 00:35:24,965
And they're like, scientists say
this. And it's like, but you

629
00:35:24,965 --> 00:35:27,765
didn't but it's been a nuanced
discussion that scientists have

630
00:35:27,765 --> 00:35:31,730
been having for a while, and
you're just seeing one teeny

631
00:35:31,730 --> 00:35:35,170
tiny bit of it. And so my dad
has been victim of that and

632
00:35:35,170 --> 00:35:37,810
still doesn't know whether eggs
are healthy for him. He will eat

633
00:35:37,810 --> 00:35:42,290
them, but, like, doesn't know
and doesn't know who to trust on

634
00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:43,970
it. And he is a smart man.

635
00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:47,535
So it's like, you can fall for
this pretty easily if you only

636
00:35:47,535 --> 00:35:52,015
read a little bit. And it's hard
to ask people to read more.

637
00:35:52,015 --> 00:35:52,415
More.

638
00:35:52,415 --> 00:35:54,335
Joe Hanson: Yeah. There's a
comfort with certain feelings

639
00:35:54,335 --> 00:35:57,400
that that and and and mental
states that a person has to

640
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,400
develop. And these are like a
muscle, they're like an exercise

641
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,360
you have to do because they are
inherently uncomfortable. Like,

642
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,280
why do we watch to the end of a
movie? Because we don't like

643
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,400
unresolved tensions and
questions about the universe,

644
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:09,640
okay?

645
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,235
Like we want to wrap things up.
It's sort it's it's a it's a

646
00:36:12,235 --> 00:36:16,715
natural human instinct. Right?
And we don't like our our

647
00:36:16,715 --> 00:36:19,275
identities challenge. We we we
we love our families.

648
00:36:19,275 --> 00:36:21,915
We love our communities. We love
where where we're from. I have a

649
00:36:21,915 --> 00:36:25,260
completely irrational love for
several sports teams that I

650
00:36:25,260 --> 00:36:28,540
could never logically defend
during their worst seasons.

651
00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:33,740
Okay? But I continue to hate the
other guy because it feels right

652
00:36:33,740 --> 00:36:34,700
and human.

653
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:39,095
And these are all things that we
do. There's a necessary kind of

654
00:36:39,095 --> 00:36:44,695
humility that that must enter
the game in in in order to

655
00:36:44,695 --> 00:36:47,575
develop that comfort with
changing your mind. Everybody

656
00:36:47,575 --> 00:36:49,895
finds themselves in these
situations right now, right?

657
00:36:49,895 --> 00:36:52,970
Whether you're arguing online or
at Thanksgiving or whatever.

658
00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:53,210
Right?

659
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:55,770
You're everyone's having these
conversations about science and

660
00:36:55,770 --> 00:36:58,650
what's right and what's wrong.
And no. No. This is the truth.

661
00:36:58,650 --> 00:36:59,370
And your uncle's like,

662
00:36:59,370 --> 00:37:01,450
Bernie Sanders: oh, no. That's
gonna be I I saw it somewhere.

663
00:37:02,090 --> 00:37:06,345
Joe Hanson: Well, try this. And
it's so illustrative for, I

664
00:37:06,345 --> 00:37:10,265
think what it takes to start to
chip away at these hardening

665
00:37:10,265 --> 00:37:15,065
challenges is to ask, what would
it take for you to change your

666
00:37:15,065 --> 00:37:20,020
mind? And it's often very
effective because it involves it

667
00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:24,980
asks somebody to do this self
reflection of if there is

668
00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:28,260
reasoning involved, what is that
reasoning? And maybe inside of

669
00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:31,425
their head, they're realizing
there isn't as much reasoning as

670
00:37:31,425 --> 00:37:35,745
they thought to begin with. It
makes it a personal kind of

671
00:37:35,745 --> 00:37:38,785
effort and a proactive effort on
their part, rather than feeling

672
00:37:38,785 --> 00:37:42,465
like they're reacting to attack
and these things that can bring

673
00:37:42,465 --> 00:37:43,105
up defenses.

674
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:45,620
Trace Dominguez: Yeah. And to
your point from earlier, those

675
00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:48,420
attacks, as we all know as
science communicators, and maybe

676
00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:51,460
it doesn't need to be said in
our circles, but if you're not

677
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:54,180
in the world of science
communication, stating facts at

678
00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:57,780
people, telling them that
they're wrong, debunking things

679
00:37:57,095 --> 00:38:00,695
will not change anyone's mind.
It it does not work. There are

680
00:38:01,015 --> 00:38:05,095
reams of pages of studies. There
are more PDFs than you can fit

681
00:38:05,095 --> 00:38:07,175
in your computer on this
specific topic.

682
00:38:07,175 --> 00:38:09,660
Right? I don't know. I don't
have a barrels of ink. There's

683
00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:11,980
no barrels of ink anymore. So I
don't really like in the same so

684
00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:14,700
I don't really know how to say
we've had spilled barrels of ink

685
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:15,180
on this.

686
00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:19,580
But like, there's so much study
of of this will not work. But

687
00:38:19,580 --> 00:38:22,140
what does work is exactly what
Joe's talking about. Right? Is

688
00:38:22,140 --> 00:38:26,825
getting kind of going around the
logical argument that most

689
00:38:26,825 --> 00:38:29,225
science communicators are like,
well, I can make this. You know,

690
00:38:29,225 --> 00:38:32,185
I can tell you about you know,
Alex can talk about mRNA and how

691
00:38:32,185 --> 00:38:35,625
it works all day, but that's not
what the person listening might

692
00:38:35,625 --> 00:38:38,810
need in order to actually learn
about m m mRNA.

693
00:38:39,050 --> 00:38:41,530
And that good science
communicators, the best ones,

694
00:38:41,530 --> 00:38:45,450
you know, the Sagans, if you
will, and, like, they appeal to

695
00:38:45,450 --> 00:38:50,035
your emotion and they give you
some logical information. I made

696
00:38:50,035 --> 00:38:53,395
a medium good video about this
where it was just like, just ask

697
00:38:53,395 --> 00:38:57,235
questions. Don't even try and
talk to people about what you're

698
00:38:57,235 --> 00:39:00,675
thinking about and your logic.
Just ask them where they get

699
00:39:00,675 --> 00:39:02,610
their foundations of their
thoughts.

700
00:39:13,965 --> 00:39:17,725
Alex Dainis: One of the things
that has changed a lot about how

701
00:39:17,725 --> 00:39:19,645
I think about science
communication over the past few

702
00:39:19,645 --> 00:39:23,885
years is reading about deep
canvassing techniques, which

703
00:39:23,885 --> 00:39:28,445
were a whole bunch of techniques
developed by the LGBTQ center in

704
00:39:28,445 --> 00:39:31,770
Los Angeles when gay marriage
was on the ballot and instead of

705
00:39:31,770 --> 00:39:34,410
just sending people around to be
like, do you support this? Yes

706
00:39:34,410 --> 00:39:37,450
or no? They would send people
out and have them have the goal

707
00:39:37,450 --> 00:39:41,370
of having conversations that
required both parties to ask

708
00:39:41,370 --> 00:39:45,685
questions and both parties to
share personal anecdotes. And it

709
00:39:45,685 --> 00:39:50,645
massively changed people's minds
about these topics. And so I

710
00:39:50,645 --> 00:39:56,380
have not found a way to make
this sound less, like, VC tech

711
00:39:56,380 --> 00:39:58,460
deck, like, and I'm so sorry.

712
00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:01,580
But I have tried to start
thinking about it less as

713
00:40:01,580 --> 00:40:06,380
science communication and more
as science conversation. Wow.

714
00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:08,860
Wow. Which I know and I hate it.
I hate it so much.

715
00:40:08,860 --> 00:40:13,555
Wow. But, like, when can I
converse with someone? When can

716
00:40:13,555 --> 00:40:16,995
I have a conversation instead of
me just talking at them? And so

717
00:40:16,995 --> 00:40:19,715
I spend a lot of time now in the
comment sections.

718
00:40:19,715 --> 00:40:22,115
Mike Rugnetta: I was gonna say,
which is a challenge from a a

719
00:40:22,115 --> 00:40:26,240
broadcast medium like Yeah. Like
Instagram. Right? Or Yeah.

720
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,760
Alex Dainis: Yeah. It's it's
super hard. And so I've I've I

721
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,320
haven't figured out exactly the
right way to do it yet, but I

722
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,960
spend more time in the comment
sections. I try and have a lot

723
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,800
more conversations in person.
Like, I really would love to

724
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,615
shift more of the work that I do
away from the Internet and into

725
00:40:42,615 --> 00:40:44,855
in person so I can just be
talking with people.

726
00:40:45,175 --> 00:40:48,215
Joe Hanson: I had the most
charming experience a couple of

727
00:40:48,215 --> 00:40:51,895
weeks ago. I got kind of, you
know, the PTA at school finds

728
00:40:51,895 --> 00:40:55,290
out that you're a scientist with
with a YouTube channel. You get

729
00:40:55,290 --> 00:41:00,730
asked to do stuff. And I went to
the STEM night at school, we're

730
00:41:00,730 --> 00:41:03,770
promoting science, the science
fair exhibits are out, the book

731
00:41:03,770 --> 00:41:06,090
fair is going on. It's just a
celebration of learning.

732
00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:06,410
Mike Rugnetta: Like, can

733
00:41:06,410 --> 00:41:10,115
Joe Hanson: you do something?
Well, yeah. And what I decided

734
00:41:10,115 --> 00:41:13,955
to do mostly because I had no
time to prepare was set up this

735
00:41:13,955 --> 00:41:15,395
like Charlie Brown

736
00:41:15,555 --> 00:41:15,955
Trace Dominguez: Yes.

737
00:41:15,955 --> 00:41:18,275
Joe Hanson: Psychiatrist. He it.
Knew it.

738
00:41:18,275 --> 00:41:20,355
Mike Rugnetta: Did you do ask a
scientist? Yes. Said,

739
00:41:20,355 --> 00:41:20,835
Speaker 2: right there.

740
00:41:20,835 --> 00:41:25,210
Joe Hanson: Zero sense. And I
just sat there and had kids walk

741
00:41:25,210 --> 00:41:28,170
up and ask anything that they
wanted. There was nothing was

742
00:41:28,170 --> 00:41:30,410
off limits from like the
kindergartners all the way

743
00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:33,930
through their older siblings.
Even parents were jumping in and

744
00:41:33,930 --> 00:41:36,810
just became this incredible
little congregation of people

745
00:41:36,810 --> 00:41:39,735
hearing other people's
questions. And I could see these

746
00:41:39,735 --> 00:41:43,175
moments of people realizing
that, oh, I actually kinda

747
00:41:43,175 --> 00:41:45,735
wondered that, like, you know,
those eyebrows go up at this

748
00:41:46,855 --> 00:41:50,615
feel and realizing that their
curiosity wasn't just theirs and

749
00:41:50,615 --> 00:41:55,440
and kids getting over that
anxiety of thinking that it's

750
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,400
bad to ask a question.

751
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:57,520
Bernie Sanders: I'm not really
only person

752
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,080
Joe Hanson: who doesn't know
this stuff. And it really,

753
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,720
really charming and felt
positive. And there's just,

754
00:42:03,455 --> 00:42:05,935
there's no there's no website
for that.

755
00:42:07,215 --> 00:42:09,215
Mike Rugnetta: These all sound
like answers to the question

756
00:42:09,215 --> 00:42:13,055
that I was gonna ask next, which
is like, what do you do,

757
00:42:13,215 --> 00:42:18,270
especially, like, right now
where there is an administration

758
00:42:18,270 --> 00:42:24,590
that is doing a lot to erode as
much trust as they possibly can

759
00:42:24,590 --> 00:42:28,590
in the institutions that
practice and forward and fund

760
00:42:28,590 --> 00:42:32,005
and communicate science so that
you then get people being like,

761
00:42:32,005 --> 00:42:33,925
oh, this is sort of related to
what you were just saying,

762
00:42:33,925 --> 00:42:36,645
Trace. Like, people being like,
oh, scientists? You mean the

763
00:42:36,645 --> 00:42:40,485
people who study gay frogs or
whatever? You know, the old Alex

764
00:42:40,485 --> 00:42:45,125
Jones line or, like, what was
the most recent paper that they

765
00:42:43,830 --> 00:42:48,150
that they paraded around, like,
studying transgender mice, like

766
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:51,110
gender in mice? People like,
what are we why are we spending

767
00:42:51,110 --> 00:42:52,630
money on that sort of thing?

768
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:55,270
I guess if you're asking, like,
what do you do when someone

769
00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:58,625
starts to focus on those things,
you know, that their trust in

770
00:42:58,625 --> 00:43:01,745
these institutions has been so
eroded. You just ask them why,

771
00:43:01,745 --> 00:43:05,025
and you allow them space to be
curious and to ask questions and

772
00:43:05,025 --> 00:43:06,865
hope that they'll take the
opportunity.

773
00:43:07,345 --> 00:43:09,905
Trace Dominguez: Yeah. Well, you
can't make them take the

774
00:43:09,905 --> 00:43:13,570
opportunity. Right? Like, we we
Joe mentioned a couple of times.

775
00:43:13,570 --> 00:43:13,810
Right?

776
00:43:13,810 --> 00:43:17,090
Some people either don't have
the interest. They don't have

777
00:43:17,090 --> 00:43:19,890
the wherewithal to have the
conversation. They may not have

778
00:43:19,890 --> 00:43:23,410
the information, like, bench and
a deep enough informational

779
00:43:23,410 --> 00:43:25,810
bench to understand the
information that they are

780
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:29,065
presented with, but everybody
understands their own opinion.

781
00:43:29,385 --> 00:43:34,025
Whether they understand it well
is what I think asking people

782
00:43:34,025 --> 00:43:38,105
questions helps do. Are we gonna
put data centers in space?

783
00:43:38,105 --> 00:43:42,670
Do you want there to be? Like
because I they have an opinion

784
00:43:42,670 --> 00:43:43,790
whether they know it or not.

785
00:43:43,790 --> 00:43:44,350
Bernie Sanders: And Well, like,
what

786
00:43:44,350 --> 00:43:45,630
Trace Dominguez: about starts
the conversation.

787
00:43:45,630 --> 00:43:47,710
Mike Rugnetta: What about the
stuff that's like what about

788
00:43:47,710 --> 00:43:50,910
vaccines? Like, stuff that's
not, like, fun and neat, but

789
00:43:50,910 --> 00:43:53,710
stuff that's like, listen. This
is actually, like, kind of

790
00:43:53,710 --> 00:43:54,030
important.

791
00:43:54,395 --> 00:43:56,715
Trace Dominguez: I have a friend
who is science communicator, and

792
00:43:56,715 --> 00:43:59,115
I'll let her tell her own story
at some point. But we were

793
00:43:59,115 --> 00:44:01,195
having drinks, and we were
talking about this exact thing.

794
00:44:01,195 --> 00:44:06,235
And she had a family member who
was an anti vaxxer and had was

795
00:44:06,235 --> 00:44:10,870
having her first kid. And she
did exactly what I think she did

796
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:15,510
the exact right thing. She spent
years talking to her family

797
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:19,670
member about all of their
anxieties about vaccines and

798
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:21,990
their kids are vaccinated now.

799
00:44:22,070 --> 00:44:25,825
And so it's just like, you can
change minds. It takes a lot of

800
00:44:25,825 --> 00:44:29,265
effort and a lot of time. And
it's not always fun conversation

801
00:44:29,265 --> 00:44:33,185
because it was like, the person
doesn't always believe you or is

802
00:44:33,185 --> 00:44:35,665
like, well, you're just saying
that because you're being paid.

803
00:44:35,665 --> 00:44:37,505
And it's like, paid by whom?
What am I supposed to do?

804
00:44:37,505 --> 00:44:40,050
Show you a screenshot of my bank
account? Like, I can't like,

805
00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:42,450
what? Why do you think that? Who
told you that? Where did that

806
00:44:42,450 --> 00:44:42,850
Bernie Sanders: come from?

807
00:44:42,850 --> 00:44:44,050
Mike Rugnetta: You know? God, I
wish.

808
00:44:44,210 --> 00:44:46,370
Bernie Sanders: I yeah. That'd
be great. Except for it wouldn't

809
00:44:46,370 --> 00:44:48,130
Trace Dominguez: be because then
I wouldn't be talking about it

810
00:44:48,130 --> 00:44:48,370
because

811
00:44:48,370 --> 00:44:49,570
Bernie Sanders: I have ethics.
But like,

812
00:44:49,570 --> 00:44:52,555
Trace Dominguez: you know, just
it's tough. Because you have to

813
00:44:52,555 --> 00:44:55,675
get people interested in order
for them to even want to listen.

814
00:44:55,835 --> 00:44:59,115
Joe Hanson: And that example you
gave was was so perfect because

815
00:44:59,115 --> 00:45:01,995
it wasn't the American Academy
of Pediatrics that delivered

816
00:45:01,995 --> 00:45:06,410
that message. It was someone
with a different emotional

817
00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:10,810
personal resonance into that
individual that was able to

818
00:45:10,810 --> 00:45:14,890
break through. This issue of
institutional distrust and decay

819
00:45:15,210 --> 00:45:21,075
of trust in institutions is not
a passive process. Right? This

820
00:45:21,075 --> 00:45:25,315
is an this is actively being
encouraged in many ways by many

821
00:45:25,315 --> 00:45:27,955
powerful people and many
powerful organizations.

822
00:45:28,275 --> 00:45:31,795
But within that, I think those
people even work are

823
00:45:31,795 --> 00:45:36,070
capitalizing on something that
is is much broader than science

824
00:45:36,070 --> 00:45:40,310
and the challenges we face as
science communicators. We are

825
00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:46,150
coming out of a generation long
challenge to trust in

826
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:53,555
institutions from forever wars
to economic inequality being

827
00:45:53,555 --> 00:45:57,075
screwed by the system with
healthcare and education in so

828
00:45:57,075 --> 00:46:00,435
many ways and people seeing
promised opportunity not

829
00:46:00,435 --> 00:46:05,120
delivered. And there is this
undercurrent of cynicism and

830
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,680
distrust in society that people
are capitalizing on and science

831
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,080
is one of the victims. So it's
not unique to this field, this

832
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,435
challenge that we face. People
are just figuring out how to use

833
00:46:17,435 --> 00:46:22,315
that attitude against science in
many ways.

834
00:46:22,955 --> 00:46:25,995
I have a pet theory that is like
completely unproven at this

835
00:46:25,995 --> 00:46:30,520
point, but I think this totally
explains the Internet trope of

836
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,120
people holding little tiny mics
when they don't have to in

837
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,840
videos. Okay. Come on. Videos in
their car.

838
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,360
Trace Dominguez: Okay. I love
that. Okay?

839
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,600
Bernie Sanders: Yeah. You could
very

840
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,360
Joe Hanson: well compensated
influencers are choosing to

841
00:46:43,875 --> 00:46:47,395
record their videos in their car
and holding tiny microphones in

842
00:46:47,395 --> 00:46:49,955
front of their face. And I'm
just like, why? You don't have

843
00:46:49,955 --> 00:46:53,955
to do it that way. But what
these are, I think, are these

844
00:46:53,955 --> 00:46:59,460
external signals that I'm just
like you. I'm just on your

845
00:46:59,460 --> 00:46:59,860
level.

846
00:46:59,860 --> 00:47:02,740
I'm not one of those other
people up there that's got a big

847
00:47:02,740 --> 00:47:05,620
professional microphone and
studio that's recording

848
00:47:05,620 --> 00:47:09,060
something, you know, real fancy
and top down authority. I'm one

849
00:47:09,060 --> 00:47:12,100
of you and I've got access to
that secret information that's

850
00:47:12,100 --> 00:47:14,635
just between you and me. And
there are a million little

851
00:47:14,635 --> 00:47:17,195
things that we could pick out.
Some of these people might be

852
00:47:17,195 --> 00:47:21,195
doing these things and sending
these signals on purpose. Some

853
00:47:21,195 --> 00:47:23,915
of them might be doing it
without even realizing they are,

854
00:47:24,155 --> 00:47:26,795
just to try to make a thing that
looks right in their community.

855
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:34,220
But I think that it's moved
authority from being a place of,

856
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:37,980
you know, having sole access to
information or very specialized

857
00:47:37,980 --> 00:47:42,255
training or spurt and titles to
where authority is now, are you

858
00:47:42,255 --> 00:47:46,495
a part of my community? Is that
why and that is the greatest

859
00:47:46,495 --> 00:47:50,015
signal to some people about why
I should or can trust you.

860
00:47:50,015 --> 00:47:53,310
Alex Dainis: Yeah. I think
there's something interesting in

861
00:47:53,310 --> 00:47:57,710
there too. And I agree with what
both of you were just saying of

862
00:47:57,710 --> 00:48:04,910
we also, as strategic science
communicators, can and do use

863
00:48:04,910 --> 00:48:09,805
those things. Right? We also
have versions of the work that

864
00:48:09,805 --> 00:48:13,645
we do that are a little more
chill and we're just chatting

865
00:48:13,645 --> 00:48:15,805
and we're just using an informal
tone.

866
00:48:16,125 --> 00:48:21,330
And I think that it's so hard to
describe to people that like, no

867
00:48:21,330 --> 00:48:24,050
no, I'm doing it for good.
Right? I'm doing it because my

868
00:48:24,050 --> 00:48:28,530
motive is good and they're doing
it and it's wrong. But it's

869
00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:31,705
effective. And so, you know, I
think it goes back to like how

870
00:48:31,705 --> 00:48:33,225
do you how do you get around
that?

871
00:48:33,225 --> 00:48:35,545
How do you change people's
minds? I do think that there's

872
00:48:35,545 --> 00:48:39,225
part of it that the word
authenticity, right, like being

873
00:48:39,225 --> 00:48:43,065
a whole human. But I was talking
with a scientist who, you know,

874
00:48:43,065 --> 00:48:45,785
he runs a research lab. He's not
a science communicator. But his

875
00:48:45,785 --> 00:48:50,460
whole goal is to tell people
that his job is just a job.

876
00:48:50,540 --> 00:48:54,060
Right? And like he goes to work,
he does science, he comes home,

877
00:48:54,060 --> 00:48:56,860
he plays with his kids, he eats
dinner, he does a little more

878
00:48:56,860 --> 00:49:00,060
science, he goes to bed. And he
tries to really frame it as

879
00:48:59,565 --> 00:49:02,525
like, you can anyone can relate
to that. Right? That they go to

880
00:49:02,525 --> 00:49:04,765
work, they do their job, and
they come home.

881
00:49:05,005 --> 00:49:07,965
And that framing science as just
another job has been very

882
00:49:07,965 --> 00:49:11,165
effective for people being like,
oh yeah, like, I could also do

883
00:49:11,165 --> 00:49:14,410
that. I just chose to do this
other job. So I do think that

884
00:49:14,410 --> 00:49:18,730
there are ways to use that and
do that that are effective and

885
00:49:18,730 --> 00:49:21,290
that are modeling that we are
all just people who have good in

886
00:49:21,450 --> 00:49:26,490
well, most of us have good
intentions. But it does feel I

887
00:49:26,490 --> 00:49:30,715
will say that sometimes it feels
weird to use those things that I

888
00:49:30,715 --> 00:49:33,915
do use all the time and be like,
but I'm doing it for the right

889
00:49:33,915 --> 00:49:34,715
reasons.

890
00:49:35,115 --> 00:49:38,635
Trace Dominguez: It does feel
sometimes like I'll grab a a dry

891
00:49:38,635 --> 00:49:41,680
erase marker and and use it as a
microphone or whatever. And it

892
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,320
feels a little bit like, how do
you do fellow kids like Steve

893
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,680
Buscemi? You know? But but
that's you're meeting people

894
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:48,880
where they are. Right?

895
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,680
You're meeting people where they
are and doing exactly what

896
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,815
you're both talking about where
you're like, how can I get past

897
00:49:55,815 --> 00:49:59,495
people's defenses just enough to
hook them in, to get them

898
00:49:59,495 --> 00:50:02,535
interested in this strange thing
about the world that they

899
00:50:02,535 --> 00:50:05,335
already live in and that they
probably experience every day?

900
00:50:05,335 --> 00:50:09,640
And so I'm if I have to put on a
banana suit and go into the into

901
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,920
there and do it, I'm gonna do
it. If you are being objective,

902
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:17,080
it's a little disingenuous, but
so is all media in some on the

903
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,360
most objective. Right? Like,
people saying, like, oh, well, I

904
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,360
was watching Andor, and it just
looked like sets.

905
00:50:22,305 --> 00:50:24,865
It didn't look like and it's
like, all TV is like that.

906
00:50:24,865 --> 00:50:26,385
That's just what TV is. I I

907
00:50:26,465 --> 00:50:28,065
Mike Rugnetta: I don't know how
I feel about that Andor show. It

908
00:50:28,065 --> 00:50:29,905
feels like they're trying to
tell a story. Yeah. They're

909
00:50:29,905 --> 00:50:30,065
trying

910
00:50:30,065 --> 00:50:31,025
Bernie Sanders: to tell they're
trying

911
00:50:31,025 --> 00:50:31,905
Trace Dominguez: to tell me
something,

912
00:50:31,905 --> 00:50:32,065
Bernie Sanders: and I

913
00:50:32,065 --> 00:50:33,185
Trace Dominguez: don't know how
I feel about it.

914
00:50:33,185 --> 00:50:35,185
Alex Dainis: And it's just Can
can I tell you my best banana

915
00:50:35,185 --> 00:50:39,720
suit story of the past year?
Please. Was that I did a brand

916
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:45,400
deal that makes, on the face, no
sense for me with Doctor.

917
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,400
Squatch soap when they released
a soap that reportedly had

918
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:54,615
Sydney Sweeney's bathwater in
it. And I made a video about

919
00:50:54,695 --> 00:50:55,575
they sent me the soap.

920
00:50:55,575 --> 00:50:59,415
I made a video about the soap
because I got to talk about the

921
00:50:59,415 --> 00:51:03,335
fact that there's DNA in almost
every single one of your cells.

922
00:51:03,495 --> 00:51:07,170
And so I reached an audience
that did not care about DNA.

923
00:51:07,170 --> 00:51:11,010
They cared about Sydney Sweeney
and they cared about soap. But I

924
00:51:11,010 --> 00:51:14,530
got to I got sixty seconds to
tell them a little bit about

925
00:51:14,530 --> 00:51:18,290
DNA. And those videos hit, you
know, a million views kind of

926
00:51:18,290 --> 00:51:19,970
things because people cared
about Sydney Sweeney.

927
00:51:20,255 --> 00:51:22,815
But that was a million people
who otherwise were not gonna

928
00:51:22,815 --> 00:51:26,255
think about DNA that day and I
just got a little fact in there.

929
00:51:26,495 --> 00:51:27,695
Bernie Sanders: And so sometimes
I do think

930
00:51:27,695 --> 00:51:30,095
Alex Dainis: that like meeting
people where they're at can be

931
00:51:30,095 --> 00:51:33,535
weird can be weird spots. That's
weird. But like, you can put DNA

932
00:51:33,535 --> 00:51:34,175
in there.

933
00:51:34,335 --> 00:51:37,270
Bernie Sanders: Why can't we
think about both? Yeah. Exactly.

934
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:37,910
Right?

935
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:40,230
Trace Dominguez: Why not both?
Porcainulostos, as they say.

936
00:51:51,015 --> 00:51:54,135
Mike Rugnetta: When we all first
met, there was this sort of like

937
00:51:54,135 --> 00:51:58,295
separation, I think, between two
content types. There were

938
00:51:58,295 --> 00:52:01,415
science communicators over here,
and then there were and this I

939
00:52:01,415 --> 00:52:03,415
don't know if this phrase has
ever been said, but like

940
00:52:03,415 --> 00:52:05,735
humanities communicators over
here.

941
00:52:05,735 --> 00:52:05,975
Trace Dominguez: Oh.

942
00:52:06,460 --> 00:52:08,220
Mike Rugnetta: One of the things
that I heard as someone who made

943
00:52:08,220 --> 00:52:11,020
a show about popular culture and
philosophy was like, would hear

944
00:52:11,020 --> 00:52:15,580
from a lot of people who would
consider themselves, say, Vsauce

945
00:52:15,580 --> 00:52:19,260
fans or Veritasium fans,
etcetera, etcetera, saying like,

946
00:52:19,260 --> 00:52:22,115
well, I'm not gonna watch that.
That's political. You know,

947
00:52:22,115 --> 00:52:24,435
you're the show that you make is
political. It's it's got

948
00:52:24,435 --> 00:52:27,635
politics. It's like, oh, all it
is is opinions, and, like, I'm

949
00:52:27,635 --> 00:52:28,355
not interested in that.

950
00:52:28,355 --> 00:52:30,995
I'm interested in the truth. So
that's why I watch science

951
00:52:30,995 --> 00:52:33,635
communicators, something that's
not political at all. And so I'm

952
00:52:33,635 --> 00:52:37,650
just curious how it feels over
the last ten or twelve years to

953
00:52:37,650 --> 00:52:41,010
just have been handed a
political position effectively.

954
00:52:41,410 --> 00:52:43,890
Alex Dainis: I never wanted
that. I never wanted to talk

955
00:52:43,890 --> 00:52:46,930
about politics. I hate talking
about politics. Right? Like, in

956
00:52:46,930 --> 00:52:49,805
in my personal life, I, you
know, hated talking about it,

957
00:52:49,805 --> 00:52:51,645
didn't wanna ever talk about it
online.

958
00:52:51,725 --> 00:52:55,565
But then it became impossible
not to. I was like, oh, it is I

959
00:52:55,565 --> 00:52:58,285
mean, yes, it affects our daily
lives all the time but like, it

960
00:52:58,285 --> 00:53:01,885
is now so overwhelmingly
affecting science, how can I

961
00:53:01,885 --> 00:53:05,400
continue to do science
communication legitimately and

962
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:10,440
not talk about it? But I I still
hate it, like I do it because

963
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,920
it's important. But that's
another part of the job that has

964
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,920
absolutely changed that I I
never wanted, I wanted to avoid

965
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,240
until truly it became just
unavoidable.

966
00:53:19,505 --> 00:53:21,505
Joe Hanson: I mean, you know,
politics will find you if you

967
00:53:21,505 --> 00:53:24,545
don't find it first. Right? I
mean, it's it'll it'll whether

968
00:53:24,545 --> 00:53:29,505
it's stomping on your neck or or
what. But I do think science for

969
00:53:29,505 --> 00:53:35,240
a long time, the community of
science told itself a story that

970
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:38,440
it was somehow above or
separated from all these things.

971
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,240
Maybe that was the comfort with
just having more funny than you

972
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:42,200
knew what to do with.

973
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,400
Maybe it was the place of
scientists and society being

974
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,955
like this weird nerd priesthood
in terms of how people looked at

975
00:53:49,955 --> 00:53:56,515
them. But science is inherently
political. I mean, it's a

976
00:53:57,075 --> 00:54:00,355
measure of where we put
priorities and resources and

977
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,640
what we think is important for
society to be interested in and

978
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,240
the uses of those things and
what they could do to people and

979
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:12,560
places and and and culture.
There there are numerous stories

980
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,175
throughout history where people
where you've had the the traffic

981
00:54:15,175 --> 00:54:18,615
accident version of science
colliding with with politics,

982
00:54:19,655 --> 00:54:24,535
whether it's the atomic bomb or
or, you know, thimerosal or or

983
00:54:24,535 --> 00:54:30,700
these many, many famous failures
of science. So to for us to have

984
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:34,220
thought at one point that we
know, no, we will never find me.

985
00:54:34,380 --> 00:54:37,580
It feels a little naive in
retrospect. Like, it it was

986
00:54:37,580 --> 00:54:41,260
always there. You know, we're
not separate from society. It is

987
00:54:41,260 --> 00:54:43,260
not this magical work that we
do.

988
00:54:43,715 --> 00:54:47,155
Mike Rugnetta: And you don't
have to shoulder that position

989
00:54:47,155 --> 00:54:49,555
for your audience either, it
sounds like.

990
00:54:49,555 --> 00:54:52,755
Joe Hanson: I mean, that is one
of the challenges too, to remain

991
00:54:53,475 --> 00:54:56,435
To have a scientific perspective
is also sort of asking somebody

992
00:54:56,435 --> 00:55:00,240
to have a, you know, to not take
the personal perspective. So

993
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:03,520
that is, I think that's the real
challenge that we find ourselves

994
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:09,040
in is to separate the personal
and our own investments and the

995
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:13,195
ways that could affect us
personally from the sterility of

996
00:55:13,195 --> 00:55:18,315
the facts and the reason. But,
you know, reason is a magical

997
00:55:18,315 --> 00:55:21,995
idea that no one's quite figured
out and gotten, you know,

998
00:55:21,995 --> 00:55:28,260
something we all kind of orbit
and never fall into. And so a

999
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:31,780
bit of us as people will always
be involved there. It affects

1000
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:36,420
our perspectives on things and
how we interpret information.

1001
00:55:36,580 --> 00:55:39,140
We can look back at the history
of science for hours and hours

1002
00:55:39,140 --> 00:55:43,215
if you want to and look at cases
where people believe that

1003
00:55:43,215 --> 00:55:46,815
science is this sort of ethereal
thing floating above the rest of

1004
00:55:46,815 --> 00:55:52,335
society, but it is influenced by
our priorities and our

1005
00:55:52,335 --> 00:55:55,695
unconscious biases in ways that
we have to be honest with. And

1006
00:55:55,695 --> 00:55:59,580
so I think putting that word I
back into science and science

1007
00:55:59,580 --> 00:56:02,780
communication has been a really
important development that we

1008
00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:05,740
like, we are part of this. We're
all we are figuring it out along

1009
00:56:05,740 --> 00:56:09,660
with you. And we're honest about
our mistakes like real humans

1010
00:56:09,660 --> 00:56:13,315
are. That that makes us unique
and I think makes what we're

1011
00:56:13,315 --> 00:56:15,395
doing maybe a little more
relatable and honest than

1012
00:56:15,395 --> 00:56:16,595
anything else out there.

1013
00:56:16,835 --> 00:56:20,435
Trace Dominguez: I think about a
panel that Joe was on so often

1014
00:56:20,675 --> 00:56:23,795
in an early VidCon, how to be
wrong on the Internet. Joe knows

1015
00:56:23,795 --> 00:56:27,090
the panel. We were all there. It
was great. There was a YouTuber

1016
00:56:27,090 --> 00:56:29,970
there who used to make listicles
about stuff that was sometimes

1017
00:56:29,970 --> 00:56:32,850
science, and he said, I just
leave it up.

1018
00:56:32,930 --> 00:56:33,730
I don't care.

1019
00:56:33,890 --> 00:56:36,370
Mike Rugnetta: I almost brought
up that panel in this

1020
00:56:36,370 --> 00:56:40,065
conversation a few minutes ago.
Also think about good panel.

1021
00:56:40,065 --> 00:56:42,945
Joe Hanson: I cannot drag his
name through the mud. I mean, if

1022
00:56:42,945 --> 00:56:47,425
Trace Dominguez: you want to,
I'm I we can. But like, I don't

1023
00:56:47,425 --> 00:56:49,985
even know if he makes videos
anymore. I, you know, he's not

1024
00:56:49,985 --> 00:56:54,000
in my algorithm. But the point
is being wrong on the Internet

1025
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,640
is so important for us and it's
not always important for, you

1026
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,080
know, you think that Alex Jones
talking about gay frogs is

1027
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,960
worries whether he's gonna be
wrong or not in his next

1028
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,215
episode? He was like, well, last
episode I have a I just have a

1029
00:57:08,215 --> 00:57:11,415
correction I wanna make that it
they weren't making the frogs

1030
00:57:11,415 --> 00:57:11,815
gay.

1031
00:57:11,815 --> 00:57:14,695
It was actually salamanders.
They were the it wasn't frogs.

1032
00:57:14,695 --> 00:57:17,095
Sorry. My mistake. Different you
know, my mistake.

1033
00:57:17,095 --> 00:57:19,495
Let's move on and talk about
something. You know, it's just

1034
00:57:19,495 --> 00:57:24,940
like so it's like, some comedian
that came across my algorithm

1035
00:57:24,940 --> 00:57:28,460
was like, do you think that
everyone has impostor syndrome

1036
00:57:28,460 --> 00:57:31,820
or just the people who care
about their job? Like, if you

1037
00:57:31,820 --> 00:57:34,380
have impostor syndrome, it means
that you are having a little bit

1038
00:57:34,380 --> 00:57:38,915
of metacognition about your
work. You're like, am I good

1039
00:57:38,915 --> 00:57:42,515
enough to do this? That thought
doesn't enter everyone's head.

1040
00:57:42,515 --> 00:57:44,275
Alex Dainis: Yeah. And I think
that's where you can you can

1041
00:57:44,275 --> 00:57:47,235
pepper in as well the like,
well, and I was wrong about

1042
00:57:47,235 --> 00:57:51,155
this. Or also the I don't know.
Right? I think that that's also

1043
00:57:51,155 --> 00:57:53,475
incredibly important to model
because I think there are so

1044
00:57:53,475 --> 00:57:56,650
many people shilling
misinformation online who are

1045
00:57:56,650 --> 00:57:59,130
like, I know this thing with a
100% certainty.

1046
00:57:59,130 --> 00:58:01,690
And I think it's really
important to be like, hey, I

1047
00:58:01,690 --> 00:58:04,010
don't know the answer to this,
but here's how I might find it

1048
00:58:04,010 --> 00:58:07,335
out or here's how I'd go about
it or in hopefully not even

1049
00:58:07,335 --> 00:58:09,895
saying it so directly, but just
showing the process of doing

1050
00:58:09,895 --> 00:58:14,135
that. I think being able to say
I was wrong, I don't know, like,

1051
00:58:14,135 --> 00:58:16,935
here's how I feel. I agree with
you. I think those are things

1052
00:58:16,935 --> 00:58:21,335
that were really not allowed in
broadcast communication for a

1053
00:58:21,335 --> 00:58:27,330
long time and they are required,
I think, to do our job well now.

1054
00:58:27,650 --> 00:58:29,730
Trace Dominguez: Yeah. A bit of
authenticity like you're

1055
00:58:29,730 --> 00:58:34,050
mentioning, but also just a bit
of being human. Right? The story

1056
00:58:34,050 --> 00:58:37,905
then becomes a little more about
the person who's learning your

1057
00:58:37,905 --> 00:58:41,265
learning journey, as we said on
our podcast once and had a real

1058
00:58:41,265 --> 00:58:43,825
fun time trying to say that over
and over again. Your learning

1059
00:58:43,825 --> 00:58:44,305
journey.

1060
00:58:44,305 --> 00:58:45,585
Alex Dainis: Your learning
journey is the

1061
00:58:45,585 --> 00:58:48,590
Bernie Sanders: whole process of
science. Right? Like, science is

1062
00:58:48,590 --> 00:58:49,310
how we know, not

1063
00:58:49,310 --> 00:58:52,510
Alex Dainis: what we know. Like,
I I think modeling that is, the

1064
00:58:52,510 --> 00:58:53,630
biggest thing you can do.

1065
00:58:53,790 --> 00:58:56,110
Joe Hanson: I I often I I'm
often afraid that we're sitting

1066
00:58:56,110 --> 00:58:59,390
here sort of gardening through
the apocalypse on our little

1067
00:58:59,390 --> 00:59:00,190
flower path,

1068
00:59:00,190 --> 00:59:00,830
Alex Dainis: know, sort of

1069
00:59:00,830 --> 00:59:04,725
Joe Hanson: anxiety falls apart
around us. And and we're sitting

1070
00:59:04,725 --> 00:59:06,565
here saying this, how beautiful
it is to change your mind and

1071
00:59:06,565 --> 00:59:08,725
how wonderful it is to celebrate
these things. And we and we do.

1072
00:59:08,725 --> 00:59:10,805
We, like, we exhibit these
things. They're really that that

1073
00:59:10,805 --> 00:59:14,565
that that really fundamental
mindset is important to all of

1074
00:59:14,565 --> 00:59:14,965
us.

1075
00:59:15,365 --> 00:59:18,820
But we're also sitting here at a
time when there's, you know,

1076
00:59:18,820 --> 00:59:24,660
accounts on x called this you
that just exist to make fun of

1077
00:59:24,660 --> 00:59:27,140
people for things they said in
the past that they are now

1078
00:59:27,140 --> 00:59:32,305
saying different things in the
present. There's this social

1079
00:59:32,305 --> 00:59:37,745
pressure in these places to
crystallize and make more rigid

1080
00:59:37,985 --> 00:59:41,985
the beliefs that how dare you
ever think about updating your

1081
00:59:41,985 --> 00:59:46,380
your, you know, your beliefs
based on new information. It's

1082
00:59:46,380 --> 00:59:50,540
bullying in the form of that
that flip flopping kind of risk.

1083
00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:51,020
Alex Dainis: Mhmm.

1084
00:59:51,020 --> 00:59:54,060
Joe Hanson: So we're sitting
here, you know, as like in this

1085
00:59:54,060 --> 00:59:59,260
David and Goliath sort of setup
fighting against those really

1086
00:59:59,260 --> 01:00:03,155
intense pressures because, you
know, feels good for those

1087
01:00:03,155 --> 01:00:06,355
bullies to point and laugh and
and and click that like button

1088
01:00:06,355 --> 01:00:09,155
and keep promoting that content,
especially when you, I don't

1089
01:00:09,155 --> 01:00:14,195
know, hypothetically have
platforms that may amplify

1090
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:19,120
inorganically content that
promotes those kind of emotional

1091
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,000
mindsets. But, you know, that's
just a hypothetical.

1092
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,160
Alex Dainis: I just think that's
why you gotta do it yourself.

1093
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,680
Right? They can't this you you
if you've already this you'd

1094
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,685
yourself. And that's why I think
we gotta do it because then it's

1095
01:00:30,685 --> 01:00:33,085
like, oh, I was wrong, and you
just take the wind out of the

1096
01:00:33,085 --> 01:00:33,565
sails.

1097
01:00:33,565 --> 01:00:35,245
Mike Rugnetta: And what I was
gonna say is that I think it's

1098
01:00:35,245 --> 01:00:39,005
it's especially important to do
that in light of the fact that

1099
01:00:39,005 --> 01:00:42,840
the same thing, the sort of
entrenching, establishing a

1100
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:47,080
position, and never moving away
from it has increasingly become

1101
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,320
a characteristic of journalism
as all of the institutions that

1102
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,855
practice it have been captured
by billionaires. So there are

1103
01:00:54,855 --> 01:00:59,415
there are a decreasingly many
examples of how to do this very

1104
01:00:59,415 --> 01:01:00,295
important thing.

1105
01:01:00,855 --> 01:01:03,815
Trace Dominguez: I also think we
mentioned politics earlier.

1106
01:01:03,815 --> 01:01:06,935
Right? And Joe said, you know,
if it's gonna come for you

1107
01:01:06,935 --> 01:01:12,110
eventually. And I I like to
think of it as they came because

1108
01:01:12,110 --> 01:01:16,350
they didn't have any other thing
to fight with. So, like, if

1109
01:01:16,350 --> 01:01:20,830
you're worried about some issue,
then politicize it.

1110
01:01:20,830 --> 01:01:23,390
And now I can argue with you
that it's political and tell you

1111
01:01:23,390 --> 01:01:26,435
to stop talking about it because
now it's political. Right? Like,

1112
01:01:26,435 --> 01:01:31,715
the shape of the planet we're on
is not a political position

1113
01:01:32,115 --> 01:01:35,635
unless another group of people
get together and be like, let's

1114
01:01:35,635 --> 01:01:38,690
make this political. Now that
it's political, we can tell you

1115
01:01:38,690 --> 01:01:41,570
to not talk about it because
there's a lot of people who, you

1116
01:01:41,570 --> 01:01:44,290
know, don't want you to talk
about politics. And it's like

1117
01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:47,090
science is funded by governments
and people.

1118
01:01:47,170 --> 01:01:50,050
National parks are run by
governments and funded by

1119
01:01:50,050 --> 01:01:52,995
taxpayers. The road is
political. The park is

1120
01:01:52,995 --> 01:01:56,035
political. The science is
political. All of space is

1121
01:01:56,035 --> 01:01:56,755
political.

1122
01:01:56,835 --> 01:02:00,515
The ocean is political. Like,
there is nothing. The health

1123
01:02:00,515 --> 01:02:04,675
care, you name it. It is already
either funded by or partially

1124
01:02:04,675 --> 01:02:08,340
research done by science, which
is funded by people, which is

1125
01:02:08,340 --> 01:02:10,820
political. So it's like
everything is.

1126
01:02:10,980 --> 01:02:13,380
But if they want you to not talk
about it, what they'll do is

1127
01:02:13,380 --> 01:02:17,380
they'll kinda slide underneath
it with this is a political hot

1128
01:02:17,380 --> 01:02:21,055
button issue now, and we've
spent a lot of time trying to

1129
01:02:21,055 --> 01:02:24,015
make it so. So then we can tell
you you can't talk about it

1130
01:02:24,015 --> 01:02:24,495
anymore.

1131
01:02:24,495 --> 01:02:27,295
Joe Hanson: Here's the risk of
these bespoke realities when

1132
01:02:27,295 --> 01:02:31,535
when apathy comes into it. The
more you swipe through and don't

1133
01:02:31,535 --> 01:02:33,775
interact with something in any
algorithm, right, the less

1134
01:02:33,775 --> 01:02:37,400
you're gonna see of that thing.
So the more that people are, I

1135
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,480
don't know, frustrated or maybe
even trained or convinced to

1136
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:45,480
avoid this stuff, they're like,
ugh, not another thing about

1137
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,000
vaccines. Ugh, not another thing
about climate change and they're

1138
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:54,385
swiping through to the next, you
know, toddler falling down. That

1139
01:02:54,385 --> 01:02:56,545
that makes it less likely that
they're gonna see that thing

1140
01:02:56,545 --> 01:02:57,745
when it really matters.

1141
01:02:58,785 --> 01:03:01,585
Because they're building they're
they're reinforcing this eat

1142
01:03:01,585 --> 01:03:05,265
this reality that's even further
and further away from science

1143
01:03:05,870 --> 01:03:09,390
and from inner from maybe
encountering that content. And

1144
01:03:09,390 --> 01:03:13,150
that's a really that's a really
sad and and kind of frightening

1145
01:03:13,150 --> 01:03:16,270
outlook on the future as as
there becomes, you know, four

1146
01:03:16,270 --> 01:03:21,045
websites that are ever
increasingly customizing your

1147
01:03:21,045 --> 01:03:26,245
your your view of reality. But
maybe maybe if we're looking for

1148
01:03:26,245 --> 01:03:29,605
optimism there, something that
we all know is that you're

1149
01:03:29,605 --> 01:03:33,670
always encountering some group
of people for the first time.

1150
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:37,110
The treadmill of humanity is
always bringing new people into

1151
01:03:37,110 --> 01:03:41,030
an idea for the first time. And
that is one of the things that

1152
01:03:41,030 --> 01:03:43,510
sort of keeps me going through
all these frustrations and

1153
01:03:43,510 --> 01:03:47,365
questions and uncertainties and
and face palming moments

1154
01:03:47,365 --> 01:03:49,605
throughout being a science
communicator over the past

1155
01:03:49,605 --> 01:03:52,805
decade plus is that, you know
what?

1156
01:03:52,885 --> 01:03:56,645
There's always somebody out
there who could find this and

1157
01:03:56,645 --> 01:04:00,485
have have have my answer be the
first answer they ever hear on

1158
01:04:00,485 --> 01:04:04,760
this that could frame the way
they look at this question for

1159
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:09,480
the rest of their life. And
that's a really incredible

1160
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,000
opportunity for us that I think
just continues to to underscore

1161
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,320
how important it is that we
continue to do this and don't

1162
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,255
kind of give in to these cynical
frustrations that that hit us

1163
01:04:18,255 --> 01:04:18,975
sometimes.

1164
01:04:29,775 --> 01:04:32,660
Mike Rugnetta: Friends, thank
you so much for joining me and

1165
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:36,580
having this conversation. We
have got through, like, less

1166
01:04:36,580 --> 01:04:40,420
than a tenth of what I have
written down in my preparation

1167
01:04:40,420 --> 01:04:45,175
doc for this. Like, you know,
Alex, you mentioned studies

1168
01:04:45,175 --> 01:04:47,975
about science communication and
books that have been written

1169
01:04:47,975 --> 01:04:51,655
about it. I wanna know about
that. Trace, I have more

1170
01:04:51,655 --> 01:04:54,215
questions about what it's like
working for a large

1171
01:04:54,215 --> 01:04:57,655
entertainment company doing
science communication.

1172
01:04:58,135 --> 01:05:01,830
Joe, I would like to spend an
hour talking about ask a

1173
01:05:01,830 --> 01:05:06,550
scientist by itself. Yes. I I
just wanna talk about that. So

1174
01:05:06,550 --> 01:05:10,150
maybe we can reconvene at some
point in the future and get to,

1175
01:05:10,150 --> 01:05:11,750
again, a tenth of this.

1176
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:14,785
Joe Hanson: You name the time
and the place. I'll bring the

1177
01:05:14,785 --> 01:05:16,705
ask a scientist family to do it.

1178
01:05:17,505 --> 01:05:20,545
Mike Rugnetta: Where can
everybody who is listening find

1179
01:05:20,545 --> 01:05:24,305
you on the Internet? We'll go in
introduction order. So Alex,

1180
01:05:24,305 --> 01:05:25,265
Trace, and Joe.

1181
01:05:25,505 --> 01:05:29,630
Alex Dainis: I'm at Alex Danis
on pretty much all platforms,

1182
01:05:29,870 --> 01:05:33,070
but also at the American
Chemical Society Reactions

1183
01:05:33,070 --> 01:05:34,430
channel on YouTube.

1184
01:05:34,590 --> 01:05:37,550
Trace Dominguez: I'm at Trace
Dominguez on pretty much all the

1185
01:05:37,550 --> 01:05:40,725
things. My ones that I use the
most are probably Instagram and

1186
01:05:40,725 --> 01:05:43,445
threads, but I have a YouTube
channel. And then I have my

1187
01:05:43,445 --> 01:05:46,725
podcast, That's Absurd, Please
Elaborate, which you can get at

1188
01:05:46,725 --> 01:05:50,485
That's Absurd show pretty much
everywhere. And we release every

1189
01:05:50,485 --> 01:05:51,845
Thursday. It's so fun.

1190
01:05:51,925 --> 01:05:55,190
And Stargazers, can find by I do
too many things. I'm sorry. You

1191
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:56,070
can just go to PBS.

1192
01:05:56,070 --> 01:05:57,670
Mike Rugnetta: Please turn on
your TV. Maybe Trace will be

1193
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:58,070
there.

1194
01:05:58,310 --> 01:06:00,310
Trace Dominguez: Sometimes that
happens. Although one time I was

1195
01:06:00,310 --> 01:06:02,550
in The Bahamas and I turned it
on and Mike was there. So that

1196
01:06:02,550 --> 01:06:03,030
was cool.

1197
01:06:03,030 --> 01:06:04,550
Bernie Sanders: That was really
awesome. Dumpster.

1198
01:06:04,550 --> 01:06:05,990
Mike Rugnetta: What? That's fun.

1199
01:06:05,990 --> 01:06:10,305
Joe Hanson: I'm at doctor
Johansson on pretty much all of

1200
01:06:10,305 --> 01:06:14,705
the platforms, but don't
LinkedIn me. I I just simply

1201
01:06:14,705 --> 01:06:19,505
won't. And on YouTube, can find
me at Be Smart or on PBS Terra

1202
01:06:19,505 --> 01:06:21,745
channel. You can check out my
show overview.

1203
01:06:22,705 --> 01:06:24,225
Mike Rugnetta: Thanks, friends.
Talk to you soon.

1204
01:06:24,780 --> 01:06:25,740
Trace Dominguez: Bye. Bye.

1205
01:06:25,740 --> 01:06:42,985
Mike Rugnetta: Bye bye. That is
the show we have for you this

1206
01:06:42,985 --> 01:06:45,625
week. We're gonna be back here
on the main feed on or around

1207
01:06:45,625 --> 01:06:50,670
Thursday, March 12, but hark, we
streaming. We'll see you at

1208
01:06:50,670 --> 01:06:56,110
twitch.tv forward slash the
never post on Monday, March 9

1209
01:06:56,110 --> 01:07:00,430
for a team chat, which will be
edited and released for members

1210
01:07:00,430 --> 01:07:05,005
soon after. Speaking of, did you
know that you can become a

1211
01:07:05,005 --> 01:07:09,085
member of NeverPo's for $4 a
month at neverpo.st?

1212
01:07:09,085 --> 01:07:11,725
You get an ad free feed of the
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1213
01:07:11,725 --> 01:07:14,765
streams, and contentment in the
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1214
01:07:14,765 --> 01:07:19,710
supporting a media endeavor not
in any way associated with a

1215
01:07:19,710 --> 01:07:22,990
billionaire. It's getting more
and more rare these days, I tell

1216
01:07:22,990 --> 01:07:27,550
you. Neverpo.st. Become a member
today. $4 a month.

1217
01:07:28,430 --> 01:07:31,935
Neverpost's producers are Audrey
Evans, Georgia Hampton, and the

1218
01:07:31,935 --> 01:07:34,655
mysterious doctor first name
last name. Our senior producer

1219
01:07:34,655 --> 01:07:38,255
is Hans Buto. Our executive
producer is Jason Oberholzer,

1220
01:07:38,255 --> 01:07:48,070
and the show's host, that's me,
is Mike Grigneta. Teach us about

1221
01:07:48,070 --> 01:07:53,430
life gently, implored the little
beings and stretched their arms

1222
01:07:53,510 --> 01:08:00,725
for love of the other shore.
Canto 17 for Diana by Alejandra

1223
01:08:00,725 --> 01:08:01,765
Pizarnik.

1224
01:08:02,645 --> 01:08:06,325
Neverpost is a production of
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1225
01:08:06,325 --> 01:08:08,565
distributed by Radiotopia.