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Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello,
and welcome to Never Post, a

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podcast for and about the
Internet. I'm your host, Mike

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Rugnetta. This intro was written
on Tuesday, 08/26/2025 at

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08:57AM eastern, and we have a
nonstop show for you this week.

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First, I talked with David
Huerta, senior digital security

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trainer at Freedom of the Press
Foundation about Blue Sky being

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blocked in Mississippi and the
usefulness of VPNs. Then hot on

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the heels of our member drive
stream week, an edit of our what

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is going on here stream recorded
live in front of a Twitch chat

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audience and also the gang
games.

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But right now, we're gonna take
a quick break. You're gonna

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listen to some ads unless you're
in the member feed. And when we

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return, we'll talk about a few
of the things that have happened

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since the last time you heard
from us. It's something

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unpredictable, but in the end,
that's four stories for you this

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week. AOL is suspending dial up
service, something you maybe

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thought it did twenty years ago.

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The ISP will cease the max 56 k
b p s connection on September

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30. In 2021, when AOL sold to
private equity firm Apollo

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Global Management, CNBC reported
that quote, the number of dial

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up users is now in the low
thousands. Kickstarter United,

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the union of Kickstarter workers
organized under o p e I u local

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one fifty three, is currently
collecting signatures on a

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petition asking management to
include in their contract

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guarantees to maintain their
preexisting standard of a four

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day work week. Since April 2022,
the union writes, Kickstarter

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employees have worked under a
four day, thirty two hour work

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week. It began as a commitment
to building a healthier, more

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sustainable workplace.

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During this time, Kickstarter
experienced the most successful

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period in its sixteen year
history, hosting some of the

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biggest, most groundbreaking
projects ever launched on the

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platform, end quote. They later
continue, as we entered contract

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negotiations with management, we
asked them to make the four day

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thirty two hour work week
permanent, not as a pilot or a

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promise, but as policy. They
have refused and are determined

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to retain the ability to make us
work 25% more hours for no

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additional compensation. They're
asking for support in the form

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of petition signatures, so we've
included a link to that in the

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show notes if you'd like to
sign. YouTube has been using AI

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to upscale already uploaded
videos without uploader

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permission.

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On August 14, music YouTuber,
Rhett Schull, uploaded a video

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titled YouTube is using AI to
alter content and not telling

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us. Made after his friend and
colleague Rick Beeto, another

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music YouTuber, noticed he
looked sort of like an AI

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deepfake of himself in certain
YouTube shorts. The BBC reports

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that complaints of AI upscaling
by YouTube go back to June on

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social media, quote, with users
posting close ups of odd looking

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body parts and questioning
YouTube's intentions. Now, they

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continue, after months of rumors
in comment sections, the company

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has finally confirmed it is
altering a limited number of

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videos on YouTube shorts, the
app's short form video feature.

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We're running an experiment on
select YouTube shorts, a company

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representative says, that uses
traditional machine learning

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technology to unblur, denoise,
and improve clarity in videos

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during processing, similar to
what a modern smartphone does

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when you record a video, end
quote.

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Improving clarity by making
everyone look like cake. Yum.

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It's your birthday. And finally,
research out of MIT shows that

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95% of generative AI pilots at
companies are failing. Fortune

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reports that, quote, the vast
majority stall delivering little

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to no measurable impact on
profits and losses, end quote.

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Study authors tell Fortune that
while executives may push for

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more AI use and blame regulation
or model performance for lack of

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uptake, the problem actually
lies in a misunderstanding of

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what these tools are suited for.
Extremely narrow, often rote,

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data oriented tasks, what
Fortune calls back office

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automation. Companies also
suffer when they attempt to

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design and implement their own
AI solutions with findings

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showing that nearly 70% of
internal tools fail to have any

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business impact. In show news
this week, folks, friends,

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listeners, the member drive
stream week is over, but it

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lives on in our hearts, and the
member drive itself continues.

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More on that in a moment.

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First, let's do some numbers.
Over the last week, we streamed

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thirty six hours and one minute.
You all watched us for a

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combined total of eighty eight
thousand eight hundred and

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twenty seven minutes. We had an
average viewer count over those

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thirty six hours of forty one
with a max concurrent viewer

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count of a 138. We reached
11,322 unique people and there

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were 156 of you in the chat.

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That all adds up to 16,294 live
views and 17,006 v o d views.

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And a bunch of those are still
up if you wanna go watch.

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They're gonna expire soon, I
think. 65% of our audience was

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in The US and 35% elsewhere.
Switzerland, looking at you.

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And we were rated once by the
investigators pod while we were

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all quietly watching Virtuosity.
We now have 218 Twitch followers

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and 31 subscribers, five of
which were gifted. We have

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reached affiliate status. I only
kind of know what that means,

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except that we'll probably keep
streaming at least a little

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every once in a while. So if you
wanna catch us when we go live,

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make sure to follow us at
twitch.tv/theneverpost.

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We also announced that the never
post subreddit is the place to

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hang out with other listeners as
well as the staff of the show,

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and we have got 62 new members
over there, including at least

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one that is site wide shadow
band. That's me, Mike Rugnetta.

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I will accept any tips on how to
remedy that situation. Anyways,

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r forward slash never post. Come
hang out on Ramit.

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But okay. The big number, the
important one, how many new

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members did we get? Our goal for
August is to add 200 new members

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and we got a 154. Holy cow. Can
we close that gap of 46 in,

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looks at calendar, five days?

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That is up to you all listening.
We did about that many in the

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first two days of the member
drive. Maybe we can do it again

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to close it out. If you aren't
already a member and have been

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thinking about becoming one for
$4 a month, there's no better

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time than right now, I promise.
Okay.

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Two more things. Wow. Lots of
show news this week. We've been

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very busy. If you've always
wanted to be a member but aren't

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in a spot where you can part
with $4 a month, we have a

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00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,800
limited number of gift
memberships still available from

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00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:06,600
the stream week.

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Your fellow listeners have
donated a year of membership.

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That is how much they like being
members, and we're gonna give

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them out first come, first
served. So just email us at the

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neverpost@Gmail.com with the
subject gift membership in all

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caps. If we still have some
available, we'll reply with

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details. And finally, if you've
always wanted merch, now's the

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time.

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That's right. Never post has t
shirts. You can head to

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neverpost.bigcartel.com to take
a look at the two designs

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currently available. One by the
incomparable casket map and the

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other by the inimitable Spence
Nelson. These are shirt

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preorders.

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Once preorders are closed on
September 12, shirts will be

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handprinted and then shipped by
the Neverpost staff. We are not

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printing them. We are hiring a
professional who's very, good to

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00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:04,575
print them, but we will be
packing and shipping them. See

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00:09:04,575 --> 00:09:08,655
the item page for more details
about what preorder means and,

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what you can expect as far as
timing and shipping and all

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that. Neverpost.bigcartel.com.

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Okay. That is the news I have
for you this week. First, blue

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sky is blocked in Mississippi.
Then, what is going on here? But

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right now, at certain points
throughout the stream week,

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myself, Jason, and Georgia
played video games.

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Maybe you've heard them. In our
interstitials this week, clips

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from Never Post Plays.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Alright.
Well, well. Alright. Chat,

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Georgia Hampton: you have
decided this is the person that

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I look like. I don't super
remember what Bobby Pin looks

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like.

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Jason Oberholtzer: This is about
to be great.

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Georgia Hampton: So you're gonna
find out. Well, don't look it up

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because then you'll see what she
looks like.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Oh, let's
find out together. Wow. Yep.

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Okay. Like a family.

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Georgia, I'm excited for you.
Before you Oh. Feel an

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overwhelming air of cool of

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Georgia Hampton: An overwhelming
air of cool?

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Jason Oberholtzer: Leather and
metal and the best hair and

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eyebrows you've ever seen. Bow
is impartially cool. Are

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Georgia Hampton: you kidding me?

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Jason Oberholtzer: Oh.

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Mike Rugnetta: Perfect. Perfect.
Perfect.

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Georgia Hampton: This is the
hugest compliment I've ever

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gotten in my life. Well, they
say that in a lot of queer

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relationships, people look like
twins. So let's go. Problem

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punk? Oh my god.

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Should we be sassy? Our three
options are what?

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Jason Oberholtzer: You would
know. This is like you're

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fighting the mirror right now.
I'm fighting

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Georgia Hampton: the mirror
right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think

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it's a. Okay.

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She said, you got a problem,
punk? No. But it sounds like you

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do.

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Jason Oberholtzer: What? Me?
Nah.

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Georgia Hampton: I'm just
messing with you. Me coded also.

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Mike Rugnetta: My name's Bobby.

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Jason Oberholtzer: Bobby Pin.

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Georgia Hampton: Oh my god. I
love you. We are the same.

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Mike Rugnetta: Mississippi house
bill one one two six, known

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otherwise as the Walker
Montgomery protecting children

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online act, was passed on
04/20/2024 and signed by

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Mississippi governor Tate Reeves
on April 30. The bill was

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established quote to protect
minors from harmful content. How

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does it do this? Well, I'll let
the bill speak for itself. It

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reads, one, digital service
provider may not enter into an

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agreement with a person to
create an account with a digital

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service unless the person has
registered the person's age with

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the digital service provider.

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And then later, a digital
service provider shall not

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permit an account holder who is
a known minor to be an account

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holder unless the known minor
has expressed consent from a

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parent or guardian. It then
lists ways in which consent can

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be given. A form which can be
emailed or faxed, a toll free

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phone line that can be called, a
video chat, an ID scan which

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then must be deleted it says, or
any other quote commercially

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reasonable method. Once consent
is given, the DSP then needs to

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make sure that it abides by
further rules concerning what a

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minor can and cannot be shown.
The bill reads, one, in relation

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to a known minor's use of a
digital service, a digital

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service provider shall make
commercially reasonable efforts

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to develop and implement a
strategy to prevent or mitigate

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the known minors exposure to
harmful material and other

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content that promotes or
facilitates the following harms

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to minors.

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A, consistent with evidence
informed medical information,

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the following, self harm, eating
disorders, substance use

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disorders, and suicidal
behaviors. B, patterns of use

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that indicate or encourage
substance abuse or use of

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illegal drugs. C, stalking,
physical violence, online

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bullying, or harassment. D,
grooming, trafficking, child

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pornography, or other sexual
exploitation or abuse. E,

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incitement of violence or f, any
other illegal activity.

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Not only does this mean the DSP
needs to keep track of who is

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and who is not a minor, some of
these guidelines are also very

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broad. In today's political
climate, labels like any other

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illegal activity are definitely
moving targets. Net Choice, a

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trade association which
represents tech clients like

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Meta, Airbnb, Amazon, Reddit,
Snap, and thirty some others

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sued Mississippi over h b one
one two six saying it likely

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violates free speech guaranteed
by the first amendment and equal

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protection rights guaranteed by
the fourteenth. Netchoice asked

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for an injunction, a pause on
enforcement of the law while a

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court determines if those rights
were being violated. The United

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00:15:06,015 --> 00:15:08,895
States District Court for the
Southern District of Mississippi

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granted that injunction saying
Netchoice was probably right and

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that furthermore, they likely
had standing to bring suit.

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Mississippi's AG, Lynn Fitch,
appealed saying that the

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district court didn't provide
analysis as required by legal

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precedent. The United States
Court of Appeals for the fifth

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circuit agreed and vacated the
injunction, which meant that h b

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one one two six could go into
effect over a year after it was

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originally signed. This back and
forth made it to the Supreme

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Court who concurred with the
Fifth Circuit. Earlier in

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August, writing for the court
with no dissents included,

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justice Kavanaugh says,
Netchoice has, in my view,

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demonstrated that it is likely
to succeed on the merits.

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Namely, that enforcement of the
Mississippi law would likely

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violate its members first
amendment rights under this

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court's precedence.

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However, he continued, because
net choice has not sufficiently

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00:16:05,715 --> 00:16:09,555
demonstrated that the balance of
harms and equities favors it at

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this time, I concur in the
court's denial of the

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00:16:12,515 --> 00:16:16,275
application for interim relief.
Basically, while the law is

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00:16:16,275 --> 00:16:19,810
likely unconstitutional, net
choice didn't convincingly show

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00:16:19,810 --> 00:16:24,850
that the courts need to step in
as soon as possible. So h b one

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00:16:24,850 --> 00:16:29,690
one two six stands. The supreme
court's decision made on August

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00:16:29,690 --> 00:16:33,895
14 further cemented the fact
that perhaps eventually this law

241
00:16:33,895 --> 00:16:36,775
could be overturned, but in the
interim Mississippi could

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00:16:36,775 --> 00:16:38,935
continue to enforce it as
written.

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David Huerta: And many websites
started creating these sort of

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like, not exactly pay walls, but
age walls for verification.

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00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:50,930
Mike Rugnetta: This is David
Huerta.

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00:16:51,250 --> 00:16:54,290
David Huerta: I'm David Huerta.
I'm one of the senior digital

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00:16:54,290 --> 00:16:57,410
security trainers over at
Freedom of the Press Foundation.

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Mike Rugnetta: The Freedom of
the Press Foundation helps

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00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:04,015
journalists safely do their work
online. This means, among other

250
00:17:04,015 --> 00:17:07,295
things, knowing how to protect
their identities in certain

251
00:17:07,295 --> 00:17:10,255
scenarios, something that this
ruling has now made more

252
00:17:10,255 --> 00:17:14,015
complicated for many websites
accessible within Mississippi.

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David Huerta: This, of course,
carries a certain amount of

254
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:20,150
security and privacy concerns.
Of course, there's the fact that

255
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:22,710
you're trusting a third party
website with something as

256
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:26,150
sensitive as your ID, for
example. There is also the

257
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:29,295
concerns around, for example,
securing that data once it

258
00:17:29,295 --> 00:17:31,855
arrives, that image of your
driver's license once it arrives

259
00:17:31,855 --> 00:17:38,255
on their end, and how much trust
do you have on these systems to

260
00:17:38,255 --> 00:17:44,260
actually protect your data. I
feel like we've all had GDPR

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00:17:44,260 --> 00:17:47,620
database notifications reach our
inbox. These are not infrequent.

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And sometimes the stakes are
relatively low. It's like, oh, I

263
00:17:50,580 --> 00:17:53,620
guess I gotta change my
password. But if we're gonna

264
00:17:53,620 --> 00:17:55,940
make the age verification the
norm and we're gonna have our,

265
00:17:56,215 --> 00:17:59,255
you know, our driver's licenses
or passports all over the place,

266
00:17:59,815 --> 00:18:02,855
it's a lot harder to change your
driver's license number than it

267
00:18:02,855 --> 00:18:04,695
is to change a password on the
website.

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Mike Rugnetta: I wanted to talk
with David to better understand

269
00:18:07,255 --> 00:18:11,420
how companies are responding to
these risky new age wall

270
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:14,220
requirements and also to better
understand some of the

271
00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:17,180
technologies that people are
suggesting for circumventing

272
00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:21,860
them. I started by asking about
a blog post from Friday, August

273
00:18:21,860 --> 00:18:26,685
22 that was written by the Blue
Sky team entitled our response

274
00:18:26,685 --> 00:18:32,445
to Mississippi's age assurance
law. It read, starting today, if

275
00:18:32,445 --> 00:18:36,390
you access Blue Sky from a
Mississippi IP address, you'll

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00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:40,070
see a message explaining why the
app isn't available. This block

277
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:43,910
will remain in place while the
courts decide whether the law

278
00:18:43,910 --> 00:18:47,750
will stand. And this means that
at the time of recording, while

279
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:51,605
we're recording this, Blue Sky
is no longer reachable in the

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state of Mississippi.

281
00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:56,725
Yep. If I'm understanding
correctly, it is not that

282
00:18:56,725 --> 00:19:01,205
Mississippi has blocked Blue
Sky. It is that Blue Sky has

283
00:19:01,205 --> 00:19:05,590
made itself unavailable to
people who are logging in or

284
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:09,270
trying to access the website
from a Mississippi IP address.

285
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:13,110
David Huerta: That is correct.
In this case, Blue Sky is

286
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:15,990
basically trying to figure out
where exactly it fits into this

287
00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:21,045
law, how exactly is its content
being interpreted, and how much

288
00:19:21,045 --> 00:19:24,565
does that actually affect them.
So unfortunately, this creates a

289
00:19:24,565 --> 00:19:27,525
sort of, like, chilling effect
where they maybe don't wanna

290
00:19:27,525 --> 00:19:29,925
take on that risk of getting
sued or getting in trouble with

291
00:19:29,925 --> 00:19:33,850
the law. So rather than dealing
with that and the interpretation

292
00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:36,970
of, like, where they fit into
that law, they've decided, in

293
00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:39,690
this case, it seems to pull out
entirely until that's figured

294
00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:40,170
out.

295
00:19:40,970 --> 00:19:43,770
Mike Rugnetta: In their blog
post, they write, we think this

296
00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:47,165
law creates challenges that go
beyond its child safety goals

297
00:19:47,165 --> 00:19:50,125
and creates significant barriers
that limit free speech and

298
00:19:50,125 --> 00:19:53,805
disproportionately harms smaller
platforms and emerging

299
00:19:53,805 --> 00:19:58,125
technologies. Do have a sense of
what it is that they mean in

300
00:19:58,125 --> 00:20:02,050
that case? Like, what is it
about this that they feel is

301
00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:06,450
disproportionately harming them
as a small team or a new piece

302
00:20:06,450 --> 00:20:07,410
of technology?

303
00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:12,370
David Huerta: Yeah. I feel like
there's, you know, a lot of

304
00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:18,095
things that go into features
being requested as part of this

305
00:20:18,095 --> 00:20:23,135
law that other companies have
either already implemented or

306
00:20:23,135 --> 00:20:25,455
have the staffing, the
resources, the money to

307
00:20:25,455 --> 00:20:28,495
basically implement it and have
a lot of experience with that,

308
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:32,060
including with things like
content moderation as kind of an

309
00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:36,540
an addenda in addition to that.
When it comes to Blue Sky and

310
00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:40,860
also other smaller platforms
like Mastodon, which in in their

311
00:20:40,860 --> 00:20:44,380
cases, for example, are, like,
small mini Blue Skies almost

312
00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,275
that may have, like, one or two
people total running the show

313
00:20:48,275 --> 00:20:51,795
for their for their particular
communities. Having to spin up

314
00:20:51,795 --> 00:20:56,275
all these new features and worry
about the sort of, like, legal

315
00:20:56,275 --> 00:20:59,555
repercussions of what happens if
they make a mistake is something

316
00:20:59,555 --> 00:21:03,530
that is much much more
consequential to them than it

317
00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:06,730
would be for, like, a vastly
wealthy company like Meta, for

318
00:21:06,730 --> 00:21:07,290
example.

319
00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:08,650
Mike Rugnetta: Or, like,
Facebook's got the

320
00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:12,490
infrastructure maybe preexisting
or is able to get it up quickly

321
00:21:12,490 --> 00:21:18,825
to store and process scans of
IDs, even if that is sort of, in

322
00:21:18,825 --> 00:21:21,305
a larger sense, something we
should all be suspicious of, it

323
00:21:21,305 --> 00:21:23,705
is something that they can build
quickly.

324
00:21:24,585 --> 00:21:26,825
David Huerta: Yeah. They have
the infrastructure. They have

325
00:21:26,825 --> 00:21:30,400
the security engineers. They
have the lawyers. They have the

326
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,080
resources, basically, to help
them navigate that a lot more

327
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,600
smoothly than, you know, a team
that is made up of, like, you

328
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,240
know, a dozen or or maybe in
some types of less people when

329
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,360
it comes to things like
Mastodon.

330
00:21:41,785 --> 00:21:43,705
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. Your
point about Mastodon is

331
00:21:43,705 --> 00:21:46,825
interesting. I hadn't considered
that. Are you seeing a similar

332
00:21:46,825 --> 00:21:49,865
thing happening in Mastodon
instances?

333
00:21:49,865 --> 00:21:52,745
Are are Mastodon instances also
blocking access from

334
00:21:52,745 --> 00:21:53,225
Mississippi?

335
00:21:54,110 --> 00:21:57,390
David Huerta: I have not seen
that yet. I can't tell whether

336
00:21:57,390 --> 00:22:00,590
Blue Sky is sort of the
exception to the rule or whether

337
00:22:00,590 --> 00:22:03,230
they are the canary in the coal
mine, and this is just the

338
00:22:03,230 --> 00:22:06,750
beginning of what has to come
for many other social media

339
00:22:06,125 --> 00:22:09,245
platforms, including a lot of
platforms where a lot of

340
00:22:09,245 --> 00:22:13,165
journalistic work is being done,
where a lot of you know, if if

341
00:22:13,165 --> 00:22:17,085
people remember, there was a lot
of news that broke on Twitter.

342
00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:20,445
There was a lot of news that
broke on social media. These

343
00:22:20,445 --> 00:22:24,790
platforms are basically a source
of journalistic work and news

344
00:22:24,790 --> 00:22:30,950
for many people, and having them
suddenly not be accessible is is

345
00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:34,630
an issue because now people
don't have the same access or at

346
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:36,790
least the same variety of places
to get their news from.

347
00:22:37,235 --> 00:22:39,635
Mike Rugnetta: One thing I've
seen online in response to all

348
00:22:39,635 --> 00:22:45,555
of this is time to get a VPN.
Yeah. Could you describe, just

349
00:22:45,555 --> 00:22:48,035
in broad terms, what a VPN is?

350
00:22:48,435 --> 00:22:52,600
David Huerta: Sure. So VPN, in
this case, is a virtual private

351
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,560
network, a way for you to use
someone else's Internet

352
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,960
connection to connect to the
website that you actually wanna

353
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:04,295
access. And it is one of those
things where, largely speaking,

354
00:23:04,295 --> 00:23:08,055
VPNs are still relatively
effective at getting around a

355
00:23:08,055 --> 00:23:12,055
lot of blockage that exists,
especially simple sort of like

356
00:23:12,055 --> 00:23:16,120
IP based blocks like this where
if, you know, there's a sort of

357
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,000
IP address that is associated
with a specific jurisdiction

358
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,320
like Mississippi, you can
basically simply appear from an

359
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,640
IP address that is not one of
those.

360
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,135
Mike Rugnetta: IP address kinda
acting like almost like an area

361
00:23:30,135 --> 00:23:33,815
code on your phone. Right? You
can sort of tell roughly where

362
00:23:33,815 --> 00:23:37,255
someone is from based upon this
marker and how they're

363
00:23:37,255 --> 00:23:41,175
communicating with you. And so
that's how Blue Sky is able to

364
00:23:41,175 --> 00:23:44,820
say, no. Thank you to folks who
try to sign on from Mississippi

365
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:47,140
and how a VPN can say, like, oh,
no.

366
00:23:47,140 --> 00:23:50,660
No. Like, actually, I'm from New
York or I'm from Vermont. And

367
00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:53,060
so, you know, sort of like
changing your area code or

368
00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:53,300
something.

369
00:23:54,105 --> 00:23:56,985
David Huerta: Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. You could appear to the

370
00:23:56,985 --> 00:24:00,265
websites you're visiting as if
you're in another place, like

371
00:24:00,265 --> 00:24:00,985
another state.

372
00:24:00,985 --> 00:24:04,505
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. Do
you think VPN saturation is

373
00:24:04,505 --> 00:24:08,560
about to just, like, skyrocket,
or or do you think this is a

374
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:09,840
sort of limited trend?

375
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,800
David Huerta: I feel like I
don't know what the outcome of

376
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,160
this of this blue sky block is
going to be. So it's interesting

377
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,560
to see, like, whether the courts
will interpret things in a way

378
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,945
that makes it less of a
necessity. Yeah. But if we do

379
00:24:25,945 --> 00:24:28,745
kinda start setting this
precedence of just like, well,

380
00:24:28,745 --> 00:24:31,065
we have these kind of, like,
broadly defined laws that make

381
00:24:31,065 --> 00:24:34,930
it incredibly difficult for a
smaller website to operate, The

382
00:24:34,930 --> 00:24:38,450
only way to really access this
is through a VPN. Then we may,

383
00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:42,290
in fact, reach this point where
that does become sort of a

384
00:24:42,290 --> 00:24:43,730
normal thing people have.

385
00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:48,215
Mike Rugnetta: Can you just tell
us a little bit about the other

386
00:24:48,215 --> 00:24:51,575
states around the world where
VPN use is really common?

387
00:24:52,055 --> 00:24:56,055
David Huerta: Yeah. There is a
lot of VPN usage in places like

388
00:24:56,055 --> 00:24:59,175
China where there is sort of,
like, government facilitated

389
00:24:59,175 --> 00:25:04,000
infrastructure that blocks many
foreign websites. There's sort

390
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,120
of, like, mix of how it's used.
In many cases, it's, you know,

391
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,600
sometimes something that is
deeply frowned upon. In other

392
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,815
cases, it's sort of, like,
allowing it just enough because

393
00:25:14,815 --> 00:25:17,855
it's sort of the cost of doing
business with the outside world.

394
00:25:18,495 --> 00:25:23,215
In other places like Russia, for
example, there is some blockage

395
00:25:23,215 --> 00:25:27,910
of some VPNs, but it's not
always easy for a government

396
00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:32,150
system to sort of, like, keep
track of all that, and it

397
00:25:32,150 --> 00:25:35,590
varies. Sometimes governments
will have, like, a very

398
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:38,070
centralized way to control,
like, access to the Internet.

399
00:25:38,525 --> 00:25:41,885
Other times, they'll have a mix
of, like, well, we have this

400
00:25:42,285 --> 00:25:47,405
government censorship firewall
for your home ISP and your

401
00:25:47,405 --> 00:25:52,685
office ISP, but the mobile
providers are not haven't built

402
00:25:52,685 --> 00:25:58,500
it for them yet. So a VPN is
kind of a workaround that can

403
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:02,340
exist for any combination of
these situations where if you're

404
00:26:02,340 --> 00:26:05,460
seeing blockage, you can use a
VPN to use this. And maybe in

405
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:08,020
places where a VPN is blocked,
there may be other ways to

406
00:26:08,020 --> 00:26:10,275
connect and then use a VPN to
access things.

407
00:26:10,675 --> 00:26:14,675
It's kind of all over the place,
honestly. But in regimes where

408
00:26:14,675 --> 00:26:17,875
there is a lot of, like, very
sort of, like, explicit

409
00:26:17,875 --> 00:26:22,995
government blockage of online
content, VPNs are pretty common.

410
00:26:22,995 --> 00:26:26,520
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. There's I I
have seen some chatter recently

411
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:33,080
too about The UK becoming maybe
the next place where VPNs get

412
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,600
heavily restricted or blocked
because use of them skyrocketed

413
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,195
after the implementation of the
Online Safety Act.

414
00:26:40,435 --> 00:26:43,475
David Huerta: Yeah. I could
definitely see that being the

415
00:26:43,475 --> 00:26:48,435
sort of, like, the new norm for
The UK, unfortunately. And I do

416
00:26:48,435 --> 00:26:51,955
think that that's probably going
to follow suit in many US states

417
00:26:51,955 --> 00:26:56,120
as well if similar laws to these
get passed and if the courts

418
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,960
basically interpret sort of
basic social networks and other

419
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,760
kind of platforms as falling
within this category.

420
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,675
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I'm curious
if you can talk a little bit

421
00:27:06,675 --> 00:27:11,875
about any of the technical
details of how a country or a

422
00:27:11,875 --> 00:27:14,675
state enforces a VPN ban.

423
00:27:15,555 --> 00:27:18,275
David Huerta: Yeah. It's very
much a cat and mouse game, and

424
00:27:18,275 --> 00:27:19,875
unfortunately, the VPNs are the
mice.

425
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:21,370
Mike Rugnetta: So Of course.

426
00:27:21,450 --> 00:27:23,450
David Huerta: Sometimes the mice
are still clever. Like, you

427
00:27:23,450 --> 00:27:27,210
know, New York City is full of
rats, and we humans, apex

428
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:30,730
predators that have the
technology of the of gods,

429
00:27:30,730 --> 00:27:34,090
basically, compared to rats
still have not gotten rid of

430
00:27:34,090 --> 00:27:38,835
them. So it is sort of a, like,
I guess, weirdly optimistic way

431
00:27:38,835 --> 00:27:42,835
to say that there are ways that
censorship regimes will try to

432
00:27:42,835 --> 00:27:47,810
block VPNs, either through
blocking the IP addresses

433
00:27:47,810 --> 00:27:53,490
associated with those VPN
connections or by trying to look

434
00:27:53,490 --> 00:27:57,410
at sort of like Internet
traffic, like your Internet

435
00:27:57,410 --> 00:28:00,450
connection to a VPN and seeing
like, that looks like a VPN

436
00:28:00,450 --> 00:28:02,450
connection, and then blocking
those types of connections,

437
00:28:02,825 --> 00:28:05,865
which is significantly more
sophisticated. And some of the

438
00:28:05,865 --> 00:28:09,465
more sophisticated regimes out
there do have that kind of

439
00:28:09,465 --> 00:28:12,585
blockage. It's a little bit,
unfortunately, a little bit

440
00:28:12,585 --> 00:28:13,225
smarter.

441
00:28:13,625 --> 00:28:17,460
That being said, though, there
are ways that Tor, that VPN

442
00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:22,020
companies have both sort of
found to mask that web traffic

443
00:28:22,020 --> 00:28:25,460
to make it look like just very
normal web traffic and not like

444
00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:27,140
VPN or Tor traffic, for example.

445
00:28:27,955 --> 00:28:31,075
Mike Rugnetta: In your
estimation, aren't VPN companies

446
00:28:31,075 --> 00:28:35,715
ever targeted by the states who
are trying to circumvent their

447
00:28:35,715 --> 00:28:36,435
technology?

448
00:28:37,235 --> 00:28:41,075
David Huerta: Sometimes. Yeah.
There are some countries which

449
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:47,110
have laws specifically regarding
VPNs and their usage. And in

450
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:49,990
some places, it may be, like,
completely illegal. In other

451
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:52,230
countries, there's also a
registration process.

452
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:56,845
Pakistan, for example,
technically kind of can allow

453
00:28:56,845 --> 00:29:01,725
you to use a VPN, but you have
to tell them exactly what that

454
00:29:01,725 --> 00:29:02,365
connection is

455
00:29:02,605 --> 00:29:03,165
Mike Rugnetta: Uh-huh.

456
00:29:03,405 --> 00:29:07,005
David Huerta: Which is, of
course, a little bit invasive.

457
00:29:07,005 --> 00:29:10,510
Yeah. Let's just be real. So
it's it's not an ideal

458
00:29:10,510 --> 00:29:15,950
situation, but you do see sort
of the sort of targeting of VPN

459
00:29:15,950 --> 00:29:18,750
access and the sort of, you
know, the understanding that,

460
00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:21,555
like, this is the way people are
working around it, and this is

461
00:29:21,555 --> 00:29:24,515
what we're trying to do, either
block it or regulate it or, you

462
00:29:24,515 --> 00:29:25,555
know, ban it.

463
00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:28,595
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. As a
consumer, how do you go about

464
00:29:28,595 --> 00:29:30,035
choosing a VPN?

465
00:29:31,075 --> 00:29:34,280
David Huerta: Yeah. So I get
this question a lot. We have a

466
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,760
guide at freedom.press that
kinda goes through all the

467
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,880
things that we like to talk
about when shopping for a VPN,

468
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,160
considerations around making
sure that it's actually a paid

469
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,295
VPN, because many times, free
VPNs are fake. They're actually

470
00:29:47,295 --> 00:29:49,695
just, like, logging that
information, selling it to third

471
00:29:49,695 --> 00:29:54,495
parties, and making their money
that way. It's also important to

472
00:29:54,495 --> 00:29:58,175
look at things like modern
security protocols.

473
00:29:58,575 --> 00:30:01,060
Behind the scenes, kinda
underneath the hood of, what

474
00:30:01,060 --> 00:30:04,180
runs a VPN, there's things like
a WireGuard, pretty good

475
00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:06,900
protocol to use for many
situations that you may need a

476
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:11,940
VPN for. There's also a need for
transparency with these tools

477
00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:15,615
just because you are entrusting
them with your web traffic. So

478
00:30:15,615 --> 00:30:19,055
things like security audit
reports, for example, detailed

479
00:30:19,055 --> 00:30:21,935
technical documentation of what
exactly they're doing behind the

480
00:30:21,935 --> 00:30:24,895
scenes to guarantee your
security. Because anybody can

481
00:30:24,895 --> 00:30:27,455
say, like, use our VPN. It's
secure.

482
00:30:27,455 --> 00:30:30,220
Here's a little sticker. Here's
a little graphic says secure.

483
00:30:30,220 --> 00:30:31,180
Here's a little seal.

484
00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:32,620
Mike Rugnetta: I've seen that
circle with the check mark

485
00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:33,500
inside of it. Yeah.

486
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,980
David Huerta: Yeah. Yeah. The
check mark means nothing. In

487
00:30:35,980 --> 00:30:40,540
this case, having a third party
audit, like, security firm audit

488
00:30:40,780 --> 00:30:43,900
a VPN's infrastructure to make
sure that it's actually doing

489
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,245
what it's supposed to be doing
and doing so in a way that's

490
00:30:46,245 --> 00:30:50,645
secure is a massive sort of,
like, green flag when it comes

491
00:30:50,645 --> 00:30:53,125
to transparency when choosing a
VPN.

492
00:30:55,925 --> 00:30:59,550
Mike Rugnetta: What would make
you feel good to, you know, be

493
00:30:59,550 --> 00:31:05,310
able to give the thumbs up to ID
scanning age verification

494
00:31:05,390 --> 00:31:06,270
online?

495
00:31:08,270 --> 00:31:12,255
David Huerta: There's a lot that
would have to be done there,

496
00:31:12,255 --> 00:31:15,935
starting with a national privacy
law that I feel like lawmakers

497
00:31:15,935 --> 00:31:20,735
could maybe spend time on
working on so that we can have

498
00:31:20,735 --> 00:31:23,800
some, like, legal guardrails to
ensure that our data is

499
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,160
protected when we upload an ID
someplace and making sure that

500
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,520
the right incentives are in
place to help make that happen.

501
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,245
The other thing too is, like,
honestly, VPN companies offer a

502
00:31:36,245 --> 00:31:38,325
little blueprint of what that
could look like in terms of

503
00:31:38,325 --> 00:31:42,405
things like having Yeah. Audits
of what their infrastructure

504
00:31:42,405 --> 00:31:46,565
looks like. Are they just
putting your ID photos on, like,

505
00:31:46,565 --> 00:31:51,540
an unprotected AWS s three
bucket someplace? Because I have

506
00:31:51,540 --> 00:31:53,380
seen that hacked so many times.

507
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:56,420
It's it's been ten years since I
first saw that. Like, the same

508
00:31:56,420 --> 00:32:00,420
mistakes keep getting repeated
over and over again and it's

509
00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:05,700
it's very Wild West. But I would
want to see sort of, like, more

510
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:08,635
transparency from these
companies, more legal

511
00:32:08,635 --> 00:32:12,395
protections, more guarantees,
and at the national level, a

512
00:32:12,395 --> 00:32:16,075
privacy law that would sort of
create that blood brain barrier

513
00:32:16,075 --> 00:32:19,755
between, like, access to that
data and other parts of the

514
00:32:19,755 --> 00:32:23,500
state. For example, DHS and ICE,
perhaps.

515
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:25,900
Mike Rugnetta: Which gets back
to what you talked about earlier

516
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:30,780
of, like, it's not it's not
necessarily that this is always

517
00:32:30,780 --> 00:32:33,660
a no go. It's that it's a lot of
infrastructure to build. That,

518
00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:36,075
like, if you're gonna do it, it
has to be done it has to be done

519
00:32:36,075 --> 00:32:40,395
right, and that can be hard for
especially smaller websites to

520
00:32:40,395 --> 00:32:41,195
deal with.

521
00:32:41,195 --> 00:32:41,995
David Huerta: Yeah. Exactly.

522
00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:52,660
Mike Rugnetta: David, thank you
so much, for joining us to chat

523
00:32:52,660 --> 00:32:56,340
with us about Blue Sky and
Mississippi and VPNs. We really

524
00:32:56,340 --> 00:32:57,940
appreciate you taking some time
out of your schedule.

525
00:32:57,940 --> 00:32:59,540
David Huerta: No problem. Thanks
for having me.

526
00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:01,620
Mike Rugnetta: If people wanna
see your work online, where

527
00:33:01,620 --> 00:33:02,180
should they go?

528
00:33:03,155 --> 00:33:08,195
David Huerta: Freedom.press. You
can search for VPNs and see all

529
00:33:08,195 --> 00:33:10,515
kinds of stuff that we've
written about that as well as

530
00:33:10,515 --> 00:33:12,915
other sort of online safety and
security topics.

531
00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:24,730
Georgia Hampton: This is just
dessert Tetris in a way.

532
00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:26,410
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. It's
just dessert Tetris, but with

533
00:33:26,410 --> 00:33:26,970
luchadors.

534
00:33:27,705 --> 00:33:29,545
Georgia Hampton: With the Oh,
interesting.

535
00:33:29,625 --> 00:33:32,905
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. So we're at
an impasse here.

536
00:33:33,065 --> 00:33:33,625
Jason Oberholtzer: Okay.

537
00:33:33,625 --> 00:33:36,985
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. You are. We
could we could give the porquito

538
00:33:36,985 --> 00:33:39,945
to the dog and then the porquito
porquito is gone.

539
00:33:40,025 --> 00:33:41,300
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I don't
like

540
00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:44,180
Mike Rugnetta: We could. So if
you don't fulfill an order

541
00:33:44,180 --> 00:33:46,900
within a certain number of
turns, the order changes.

542
00:33:46,980 --> 00:33:47,300
Jason Oberholtzer: Okay.

543
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:49,460
Mike Rugnetta: So we could do
that but we are close to the top

544
00:33:49,460 --> 00:33:50,260
of the bag.

545
00:33:50,420 --> 00:33:55,665
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. This is
a pivotal moment. I give the dog

546
00:33:55,665 --> 00:33:57,025
the treat.

547
00:33:58,705 --> 00:34:00,145
Georgia Hampton: I don't know
what this game is.

548
00:34:00,145 --> 00:34:02,385
Jason Oberholtzer: Good. This
this puppy baro. Yeah.

549
00:34:02,385 --> 00:34:04,785
Mike Rugnetta: Herriot has
posted is very convincing.

550
00:34:05,265 --> 00:34:07,105
Georgia Hampton: This is such a
cute little game.

551
00:34:08,220 --> 00:34:10,300
Jason Oberholtzer: I think
doggies do deserve treats.

552
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:10,620
Mike Rugnetta: But that's

553
00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:12,620
Georgia Hampton: You already
have a little what I'm assuming

554
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:14,940
is what you're talking about,
the Porkito.

555
00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:17,980
Jason Oberholtzer: Oh, he did
it. Oh, and it didn't He's gone.

556
00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:19,260
It didn't collapse.

557
00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,820
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. That's a
whoops.

558
00:34:22,335 --> 00:34:24,735
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. I think
you gotta nudge that. Oh, boy.

559
00:34:25,535 --> 00:34:27,295
Shit. He did not solve our
problem.

560
00:34:27,295 --> 00:34:30,335
Oh, no. Oh, no. This is gonna
this is gonna be okay. We're

561
00:34:30,335 --> 00:34:31,215
gonna get there. Yep.

562
00:34:31,215 --> 00:34:33,935
Oh. Uh-huh. What? Poor boy. We
won't.

563
00:34:34,255 --> 00:34:40,280
Oh, yeah. Yeah, baby. That was
so satisfying. Wow.

564
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,920
Georgia Hampton: It's wildly
Probably problem game.

565
00:34:43,960 --> 00:35:01,455
Mike Rugnetta: It's a new dawn.
Friends, hello and welcome to

566
00:35:02,015 --> 00:35:06,495
what is going on here? A segment
wherein members of the Never

567
00:35:06,495 --> 00:35:10,380
Post staff bring posts to the
group about which they would

568
00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:18,380
like to know what is going on
here. Could they have done some

569
00:35:18,380 --> 00:35:21,665
googling? Could they have gone
further down thread?

570
00:35:21,665 --> 00:35:24,945
Could they have cracked a book
or gone to YouTube? Probably.

571
00:35:25,585 --> 00:35:28,785
But where is the fun in that? In
the following segment, we share

572
00:35:28,785 --> 00:35:31,505
things that we found online that
made us want to know more and

573
00:35:31,505 --> 00:35:34,830
about which we thought the
process of finding out more

574
00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:38,670
would be more fun to do
together. Joining us for this

575
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:42,590
round of what is going on here
in order of how well I assume

576
00:35:42,590 --> 00:35:45,070
they can whistle Oh.

577
00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:48,270
Ascending Oh. Are

578
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:04,470
Georgia Hampton: You're wrong.

579
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:06,870
Mike Rugnetta: Never post to
producer Hans Buto?

580
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:08,870
Hans Buetow: I'm quite good at
whistling.

581
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:10,070
Georgia Hampton: I believe best.

582
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:11,990
Mike Rugnetta: We're gonna have
to have a whistle off, aren't

583
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:15,670
we? Yeah. Never post executive
producer Jason Oberholzer.

584
00:36:16,175 --> 00:36:18,335
Jason Oberholtzer: So I can do
two different kinds of regular

585
00:36:18,335 --> 00:36:23,375
whistling. Wow. I can do the
through the lips and the tongue

586
00:36:23,375 --> 00:36:26,975
to the roof of the mouth. Woah.
Okay.

587
00:36:26,975 --> 00:36:28,495
Georgia Hampton: I take it all
back. You were right, Mike.

588
00:36:28,495 --> 00:36:31,330
Hans Buetow: You did it. You
Mike nailed it. Mike nailed it.

589
00:36:31,330 --> 00:36:33,970
Jason Oberholtzer: The bar is
pretty high to have reached the

590
00:36:33,970 --> 00:36:35,250
top of the mountain here.

591
00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:35,570
Hans Buetow: Wow.

592
00:36:35,570 --> 00:36:37,170
Georgia Hampton: I didn't even
know that with what do you

593
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:38,690
what's happening in there?

594
00:36:40,130 --> 00:36:41,730
Mike Rugnetta: That's is that
out of the side of the mouth?

595
00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:44,690
Because I got I have a gap in my
front teeth, so I can do the

596
00:36:45,175 --> 00:36:48,695
Jason Oberholtzer: Oh, wow.
Yeah. No. It's Bitch. Just the

597
00:36:48,695 --> 00:36:51,895
tongue compressing against the
roof of the mouth.

598
00:36:52,935 --> 00:36:54,535
Mike Rugnetta: Oh, no. I can't
do that. Yeah.

599
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,640
Georgia Hampton: What
interesting audio this is going

600
00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,360
to be. Just

601
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,200
Mike Rugnetta: just all

602
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,400
Jason Oberholtzer: the while you
guys tuned in.

603
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,200
Georgia Hampton: Right? I

604
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,160
Mike Rugnetta: think of myself
as a pretty good whistler.

605
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:06,240
Whistler. I

606
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:07,440
Hans Buetow: think was gonna
say, where are you?

607
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:08,880
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Where are
you in this?

608
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:11,440
Hans Buetow: Yeah.

609
00:37:12,125 --> 00:37:13,485
Mike Rugnetta: I can whistle. I
can do a little

610
00:37:13,485 --> 00:37:14,045
Georgia Hampton: bit of Yeah.

611
00:37:14,605 --> 00:37:16,125
Mike Rugnetta: I can't do any of
the

612
00:37:16,045 --> 00:37:17,885
Georgia Hampton: The big scary
whistle.

613
00:37:17,965 --> 00:37:21,005
Hans Buetow: No. Mike, how would
you rate our audience?

614
00:37:21,005 --> 00:37:23,165
Mike Rugnetta: Audience, you tag
yourself. Where are you in the

615
00:37:23,165 --> 00:37:27,270
whistle world? Okay. We got we
got some we got some whistlers

616
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:28,470
in the chat. Chat whistles.

617
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:32,630
So for the folks listening at
home, this segment, this WIGO

618
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:37,350
segment, is being recorded live
on Twitch as part of the never

619
00:37:37,350 --> 00:37:44,415
post member drive stream week.
Not quite a ham horn, but good

620
00:37:44,575 --> 00:37:48,175
but nice, but good. Should we
find out what's going on here?

621
00:37:48,255 --> 00:37:49,455
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Let's
do it.

622
00:37:49,455 --> 00:37:50,895
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. Let's find
out what's going on here.

623
00:37:50,975 --> 00:37:53,055
Jason Oberholtzer: Welcome to
today's game.

624
00:37:53,135 --> 00:37:54,415
Mike Rugnetta: Hans, who should
go first?

625
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,840
Hans Buetow: An audience
submission that I'm quite

626
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,840
excited about. I have not looked
I'm not excited because I've

627
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,320
looked. I'm just excited because
audience heck yeah. Thank you

628
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,920
for being here. This one is by
someone named Toby.

629
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,160
Never heard of him. Don't even
know. Who who could that be?

630
00:38:09,085 --> 00:38:12,045
This is taking a moment because
I have to log in to Tumblr.

631
00:38:12,605 --> 00:38:14,685
Georgia Hampton: Oh, yes, Toby.

632
00:38:14,685 --> 00:38:15,885
Hans Buetow: Yes. Here we are.

633
00:38:17,325 --> 00:38:20,685
Mike Rugnetta: Kurt Cobain will
have his revenge on the

634
00:38:20,685 --> 00:38:21,565
straights.

635
00:38:21,565 --> 00:38:22,205
Hans Buetow: Yes. Yes.

636
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,680
Mike Rugnetta: Had a video call
with my brother Chuck the other

637
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,400
day. Things got heavy. Okay. I'm
gonna be Kate. Georgia, you be

638
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:28,960
Chuck.

639
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:29,600
Georgia Hampton: Okay.

640
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,840
Mike Rugnetta: Jason, you be
Kurt Cobain. Okay. Was Kurt

641
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,945
Cobain a trans woman? What? Kurt
Cobain, rock musician.

642
00:38:37,945 --> 00:38:39,465
He was in a band called Nirvana.

643
00:38:39,785 --> 00:38:40,985
Georgia Hampton: I'm familiar
with him.

644
00:38:40,985 --> 00:38:46,185
Mike Rugnetta: Yes. Was he a
trans woman? No. Okay. Why not?

645
00:38:46,585 --> 00:38:49,140
Georgia Hampton: I mean, he
wasn't. It's like asking why he

646
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:50,180
wasn't an astronaut.

647
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:51,860
Mike Rugnetta: He wasn't an
astronaut because he never went

648
00:38:51,860 --> 00:38:54,260
to space. Why wasn't he a trans
woman?

649
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:56,900
Georgia Hampton: Because he
didn't transition. I mean, he

650
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,260
didn't ever say he was a woman,
didn't ever say he was trans. So

651
00:39:00,260 --> 00:39:02,260
no. Kurt Cobain wasn't a trans
woman.

652
00:39:02,645 --> 00:39:05,445
Mike Rugnetta: So someone is
trans if they say they're trans.

653
00:39:05,445 --> 00:39:06,565
Self determination.

654
00:39:07,045 --> 00:39:09,045
Georgia Hampton: That's what
you've told me. Is that wrong?

655
00:39:09,045 --> 00:39:11,525
Mike Rugnetta: No. That's right.
We know ourselves better than

656
00:39:11,525 --> 00:39:14,645
anybody else can know us. If we
say we're trans, nobody can say

657
00:39:14,645 --> 00:39:15,205
we aren't.

658
00:39:16,170 --> 00:39:18,650
Georgia Hampton: And Kurt Cobain
never said he was trans.

659
00:39:18,970 --> 00:39:20,970
Mike Rugnetta: So was I trans in
1994?

660
00:39:21,610 --> 00:39:22,970
Georgia Hampton: I don't know.
Were you?

661
00:39:22,970 --> 00:39:25,530
Mike Rugnetta: Yes. But if you'd
asked me in 1994, I would have

662
00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:26,570
told you no.

663
00:39:27,290 --> 00:39:30,970
Georgia Hampton: So if I tell
you I'm trans, I'm trans. Right.

664
00:39:31,665 --> 00:39:35,425
But if I tell you I'm cis, I
might still be trans?

665
00:39:35,505 --> 00:39:37,745
Mike Rugnetta: If you tell me
you're cis, I believe you.

666
00:39:38,705 --> 00:39:41,345
Georgia Hampton: That's not the
same thing as I'm cis.

667
00:39:41,425 --> 00:39:44,750
Mike Rugnetta: That's a really
good point. This is sort of what

668
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:47,230
some queer people are getting at
when they say gender is a

669
00:39:47,230 --> 00:39:47,950
construct.

670
00:39:48,510 --> 00:39:49,390
Georgia Hampton: Come again?

671
00:39:49,550 --> 00:39:51,390
Mike Rugnetta: Well, you're
cisgender. Right?

672
00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:54,030
Georgia Hampton: As far as I
know, yes. You

673
00:39:56,510 --> 00:40:01,335
Mike Rugnetta: hedged. As far as
I know, isn't the same thing as

674
00:40:01,335 --> 00:40:04,215
yes. As far as I know, opens up
the possibility that you could

675
00:40:04,215 --> 00:40:06,295
be trans and not know it.

676
00:40:06,935 --> 00:40:09,655
Georgia Hampton: It doesn't seem
terribly likely.

677
00:40:09,655 --> 00:40:11,490
Mike Rugnetta: That's an
interesting statement. I feel

678
00:40:11,490 --> 00:40:13,730
like this is a little bit of
like Phoenix. Right? This

679
00:40:14,050 --> 00:40:15,250
Jason Oberholtzer: is wow.

680
00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:17,250
Mike Rugnetta: Early on in
transition, one of the biggest

681
00:40:17,250 --> 00:40:19,970
problems I had was dealing with
the sheer unlikelihood of my

682
00:40:19,970 --> 00:40:23,330
being trans. I mean, I knew
trans people existed. I knew

683
00:40:23,330 --> 00:40:26,505
somebody had to be trans. I just
couldn't wrap my head around the

684
00:40:26,505 --> 00:40:27,945
idea that it would be me.

685
00:40:28,745 --> 00:40:31,065
Georgia Hampton: Do you think
this is why you're on this whole

686
00:40:31,065 --> 00:40:33,465
Kurt Cobain was a trans woman
kick?

687
00:40:33,545 --> 00:40:35,705
Mike Rugnetta: Hey, now. I'm
just asking questions.

688
00:40:36,265 --> 00:40:37,545
You know?

689
00:40:37,545 --> 00:40:42,870
You know? Like JK Rowling is
just asking questions. Oh my.

690
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:45,830
Georgia Hampton: Kate, you are
literally wearing a T shirt that

691
00:40:45,830 --> 00:40:49,830
says Kurt Cobain was a trans
woman on it right now.

692
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:53,205
Mike Rugnetta: Am I? Oh, shit. I
thought I was wearing my skip

693
00:40:53,205 --> 00:40:57,125
school take hormones kill god T
shirt. To your question though,

694
00:40:57,125 --> 00:41:00,165
yeah, I do think that's part of
it. Honestly, the hardest thing

695
00:41:00,165 --> 00:41:02,485
about growing up trans was
believing that nobody in the

696
00:41:02,485 --> 00:41:04,645
world had ever experienced what
I was experiencing.

697
00:41:05,060 --> 00:41:08,100
I didn't have any role models. I
didn't wonder if I was the only

698
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:10,100
one. I was convinced of it.

699
00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:13,700
Georgia Hampton: So being able
to say that this incredibly

700
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:17,940
gifted songwriter, the voice of
a generation was a trans woman

701
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:18,500
like you.

702
00:41:19,025 --> 00:41:21,665
Mike Rugnetta: I need someone
like that. I need to not be the

703
00:41:21,665 --> 00:41:22,705
first of my kind.

704
00:41:23,585 --> 00:41:25,185
Georgia Hampton: Of course,
you're not the first trans

705
00:41:25,185 --> 00:41:25,745
woman.

706
00:41:25,745 --> 00:41:28,305
Mike Rugnetta: No. But before a
couple of years ago, almost

707
00:41:28,305 --> 00:41:31,105
every trans woman would tell you
that they always knew

708
00:41:31,105 --> 00:41:33,665
unquestionably and innately that
they were women.

709
00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:39,610
Georgia Hampton: So it's not
just about him being trans, but

710
00:41:39,610 --> 00:41:43,930
specifically his being a trans
woman who didn't know he was a

711
00:41:43,930 --> 00:41:44,730
trans woman.

712
00:41:44,730 --> 00:41:46,090
Mike Rugnetta: An egg. Right.

713
00:41:47,655 --> 00:41:50,935
Georgia Hampton: Why Kurt Cobain
anyway? What's so special about

714
00:41:50,935 --> 00:41:54,615
him that you're trying to induct
him into the egg hall of fame?

715
00:41:54,615 --> 00:41:58,295
Mike Rugnetta: He knew things.
Things cis guys don't know.

716
00:41:58,375 --> 00:42:01,360
Things I didn't know until after
I started transition. He

717
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,560
understood women, what we're
like, what we experience.

718
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,240
Penroyalty, rape me, I just have
a hard time thinking of a cis

719
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:09,920
man who could write songs like
that.

720
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,320
Georgia Hampton: It wouldn't be
the only way in which he was

721
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,040
exceptional.

722
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,275
Mike Rugnetta: True. I don't
know. I mean, I know. I can give

723
00:42:17,275 --> 00:42:19,835
you all the reasons, but there's
something in his eyes.

724
00:42:20,635 --> 00:42:22,555
Georgia Hampton: Something in
his eyes.

725
00:42:22,555 --> 00:42:24,795
Mike Rugnetta: All the pictures
of him. No matter what he's

726
00:42:24,795 --> 00:42:28,235
doing, if he's grinning or sad,
whatever he's doing, you can see

727
00:42:28,235 --> 00:42:32,460
something trapped in there.
Trapped and in pain, wanting to

728
00:42:32,460 --> 00:42:34,540
get out, but not quite knowing
how.

729
00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:39,420
Georgia Hampton: You know that
what you're doing is pretty much

730
00:42:39,420 --> 00:42:41,900
the textbook definition of
projection. Right? Maybe.

731
00:42:46,525 --> 00:42:48,685
Mike Rugnetta: Chuck, do you
think I'm happier?

732
00:42:49,565 --> 00:42:52,925
Georgia Hampton: Since you
transitioned? Yeah. Of course.

733
00:42:53,005 --> 00:42:54,685
Absolutely. Night and day.

734
00:42:54,685 --> 00:42:57,165
Mike Rugnetta: Everyone says
that. And honestly, I see it.

735
00:42:57,260 --> 00:42:59,420
Even in pictures. You know? I
see it.

736
00:42:59,420 --> 00:43:01,900
You've seen some of my
transition timelines. Right?

737
00:43:01,980 --> 00:43:03,580
Georgia Hampton: You do look
really different.

738
00:43:04,140 --> 00:43:06,540
Mike Rugnetta: It's not just me.
Hans, how much longer is this?

739
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:09,420
Hans Buetow: Oh, this is we're
theoretically quarter the way

740
00:43:09,420 --> 00:43:09,900
through.

741
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:12,220
Georgia Hampton: No way. Okay.
We can.

742
00:43:13,125 --> 00:43:15,765
Hans Buetow: Okay. So let's
let's let's pause it. You look

743
00:43:15,765 --> 00:43:20,085
different and scroll. Oh my god.
Okay.

744
00:43:20,165 --> 00:43:20,805
Georgia Hampton: Me.

745
00:43:24,485 --> 00:43:26,645
Mike Rugnetta: Yep. What is
going on here?

746
00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:30,460
Hans Buetow: Let's read the last
Are you okay? Yeah. Let's read

747
00:43:30,460 --> 00:43:32,860
from there. Let's let's having a
great time.

748
00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:35,980
Jason Oberholtzer: I think that
we should finish this after

749
00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:39,665
Wiggo and release this as a
member clip of the whole script.

750
00:43:39,665 --> 00:43:40,865
Hans Buetow: I love this so
much.

751
00:43:40,865 --> 00:43:42,385
Georgia Hampton: I can score it
in everything.

752
00:43:42,385 --> 00:43:43,825
Hans Buetow: We gotta know. We
gotta know.

753
00:43:43,825 --> 00:43:44,145
Georgia Hampton: Yeah.

754
00:43:44,145 --> 00:43:47,345
Hans Buetow: So let's let's jump
to you jump to the end here just

755
00:43:47,345 --> 00:43:47,985
so Kate, are

756
00:43:47,985 --> 00:43:51,105
Georgia Hampton: you okay? Kate,
are you okay?

757
00:43:51,105 --> 00:43:51,985
Mike Rugnetta: I'm fine.

758
00:43:52,785 --> 00:43:53,585
Georgia Hampton: Do you wanna
hug?

759
00:43:53,585 --> 00:43:54,305
Mike Rugnetta: Fuck you, Chuck.

760
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:59,990
Georgia Hampton: Okay. Well, I'm
gonna go to the other room. You

761
00:43:59,990 --> 00:44:04,870
should drink some water. Stay
hydrated. Love you, Kate.

762
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:08,150
Mike Rugnetta: Love you too,
Chuck. Sorry.

763
00:44:09,005 --> 00:44:11,405
Georgia Hampton: It's okay,
Kate. It's okay.

764
00:44:12,045 --> 00:44:15,245
Hans Buetow: Just dying my work,
everybody.

765
00:44:15,325 --> 00:44:16,445
Jason Oberholtzer: Wow. Wow.

766
00:44:16,445 --> 00:44:18,765
Hans Buetow: I that's
unbelievable. Way to

767
00:44:18,765 --> 00:44:19,885
Georgia Hampton: go. Oh my god.

768
00:44:19,885 --> 00:44:23,310
Jason Oberholtzer: Way to go,
actors. Way to go I was

769
00:44:23,310 --> 00:44:24,030
immersed.

770
00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:27,870
Mike Rugnetta: Writer. Wait.
Okay. What is this? This is like

771
00:44:28,990 --> 00:44:30,590
Georgia Hampton: it's like a
philosophical, like, thought

772
00:44:30,590 --> 00:44:31,870
experiment, I feel.

773
00:44:32,110 --> 00:44:33,550
Mike Rugnetta: Hans, can you
scroll all the way back up to

774
00:44:33,550 --> 00:44:36,430
the beginning again? Was Kurt
Trans is the account

775
00:44:36,745 --> 00:44:40,825
Hans Buetow: Is the account.
Okay. So let's take a look at

776
00:44:40,825 --> 00:44:42,745
comments because that's often
pretty inspiring.

777
00:44:42,825 --> 00:44:44,345
Mike Rugnetta: Gonna say, yeah.
What is in the comments?

778
00:44:44,345 --> 00:44:47,785
Hans Buetow: So we're at 11,233
replies, which

779
00:44:47,785 --> 00:44:49,065
Georgia Hampton: is Sure. Yeah.

780
00:44:49,065 --> 00:44:53,160
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. So I'm
guessing that we just started to

781
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,960
scratch the surface of what this
is actually feel like we

782
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,320
Hans Buetow: need to dig all the
way through.

783
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,400
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Wait, Hans.
Go more slowly through some of

784
00:44:59,400 --> 00:44:59,880
these. I just wanna

785
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:00,520
Jason Oberholtzer: read Yeah.

786
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,805
Mike Rugnetta: I mean, I guess
not not being privy to maybe the

787
00:45:04,805 --> 00:45:09,525
types of conversations that this
conversation is meant to like, I

788
00:45:09,525 --> 00:45:12,565
guess that's a question. Like,
is this a parody? Is this like

789
00:45:12,565 --> 00:45:18,680
some Poe's Law kind of thing? Is
it ironic? Is it making extreme

790
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,920
a more innocuous type of
conversation that happens in

791
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,520
order to point out, like, the
edges of it and what's weird

792
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:27,160
about it?

793
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:28,440
I mean, yeah.

794
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,920
Jason Oberholtzer: I read pretty
earnest. I think this is an

795
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,335
honest Socratic dialogue
somebody is having who really

796
00:45:35,335 --> 00:45:37,415
believes this point, perhaps. I
don't know.

797
00:45:37,415 --> 00:45:38,695
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. Alright.

798
00:45:38,695 --> 00:45:40,135
Jason Oberholtzer: I I think
it's less about the point and

799
00:45:40,135 --> 00:45:42,375
more about the kind of dialogue,
which is

800
00:45:43,015 --> 00:45:43,335
Georgia Hampton: Mhmm.

801
00:45:43,655 --> 00:45:44,935
Jason Oberholtzer: Being
mirrored here.

802
00:45:45,015 --> 00:45:47,450
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Lisby one
one two one says, I was gonna

803
00:45:47,450 --> 00:45:50,330
say this is pretty standard
Tumblr discourse, but actually,

804
00:45:50,490 --> 00:45:54,650
this is long even for a long
form Tumblr. Oh, was Kirk O'Bain

805
00:45:54,890 --> 00:45:58,095
Gin Fizzes says, was Kirk O'Bain
trans is like a big debate. He

806
00:45:58,095 --> 00:46:01,295
wore dresses and makeup and was
supportive of LGBTQ stuff. Had

807
00:46:01,295 --> 00:46:02,495
no I had no clue.

808
00:46:02,655 --> 00:46:05,295
Hans Buetow: This is fantastic.
Can you just scroll, like, to

809
00:46:05,295 --> 00:46:08,335
the middle? Like, the middle of
the section that we didn't read

810
00:46:08,335 --> 00:46:10,815
just to I would just love to get
a sense of like We're

811
00:46:10,815 --> 00:46:11,935
Georgia Hampton: getting
paragraphs.

812
00:46:11,935 --> 00:46:12,575
Mike Rugnetta: We are, like,
where does

813
00:46:12,575 --> 00:46:13,615
Hans Buetow: this Let's do this
one.

814
00:46:13,730 --> 00:46:16,690
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Azerad
spent weeks talking to Cobain.

815
00:46:16,690 --> 00:46:19,890
He was Cobain's biographer, but
also his friend, and he had his

816
00:46:19,890 --> 00:46:22,450
own interpretation of the
lyrics. For instance, Azerad

817
00:46:22,450 --> 00:46:26,290
talks about all the lyrics about
guns. And to me, now, I look at

818
00:46:26,290 --> 00:46:27,650
that, and I think of how he
died.

819
00:46:27,795 --> 00:46:31,315
But Azerad, when Kurt was alive,
he looked at it another way. He

820
00:46:31,315 --> 00:46:34,115
thought it was about dicks. To
paraphrase doctor Freud, he

821
00:46:34,115 --> 00:46:37,875
says, sometimes a gun is just a
gun, but not this time. He talks

822
00:46:37,875 --> 00:46:40,915
about come as you are, where
Kurt keeps singing, I swear I

823
00:46:40,915 --> 00:46:43,410
don't have a gun. That's not my
interpretation.

824
00:46:43,490 --> 00:46:45,970
That's never been my
interpretation. That's what this

825
00:46:45,970 --> 00:46:50,130
cis man says. More than one cis
man. Kurt says, Dave Grohl's

826
00:46:50,130 --> 00:46:52,610
dad, he said the same thing.
Yeah.

827
00:46:52,610 --> 00:46:56,305
There are all kinds of ways to
interpret lyrics. Okay. Alright.

828
00:46:56,305 --> 00:47:02,145
So this is like doing queer
exegesis on both Nirvana and the

829
00:47:02,145 --> 00:47:06,465
text of Kurt Cobain's life Yeah.
Together at the same time.

830
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Hans Buetow: And then we're
going into, like, Ed Wood, Pete

831
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,720
Burns, Prince Nelson, Richard
Wright, Dave Carter, Quentin

832
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,320
Crisp, like like, talking
through the the re parsing the

833
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,800
real details of of identity.

834
00:47:19,095 --> 00:47:21,255
Mike Rugnetta: Daniel Jenna
Grauss has something really

835
00:47:21,255 --> 00:47:25,655
interesting to say. Adds a great
bit of insight to this. It comes

836
00:47:25,655 --> 00:47:27,975
down to discussing whether we
get to claim those who came

837
00:47:27,975 --> 00:47:30,695
before us, but didn't have
access to the same theoretical

838
00:47:30,695 --> 00:47:33,460
framework and social support,
the trans siblings who fell

839
00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:36,100
through the pavement because
they didn't have the opportunity

840
00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:39,060
to find themselves in a world in
which we were less visible and

841
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:42,100
constrained to being more one
dimensional in everyone's

842
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:46,020
imagination. I mean, I wanna
read the whole thing.

843
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:47,220
Georgia Hampton: Absolutely.

844
00:47:47,220 --> 00:47:49,615
Mike Rugnetta: Right? Yeah. I
wanna read the whole thing. Then

845
00:47:49,615 --> 00:47:53,695
and then I wanna have an
informed reaction to this. But

846
00:47:53,695 --> 00:47:54,175
woah.

847
00:47:54,175 --> 00:47:58,255
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. This is
wild. Yeah. Thank you, Toby.

848
00:47:58,255 --> 00:48:00,975
Mike Rugnetta: Toby says, oh,
yes. Kurt trans woman lore.

849
00:48:00,975 --> 00:48:01,455
Yeah.

850
00:48:01,455 --> 00:48:01,935
Georgia Hampton: Yes.

851
00:48:03,330 --> 00:48:05,250
Mike Rugnetta: Turns out that's
what's going on here. Just those

852
00:48:05,250 --> 00:48:05,970
four words.

853
00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:08,450
Georgia Hampton: Yep. Yep. Case
closed.

854
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:11,330
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Toby, thank
you for sending this in.

855
00:48:14,130 --> 00:48:16,345
Hans Buetow: Alright. So the
next one that we have is from

856
00:48:16,345 --> 00:48:18,745
May. This is a submission from
May, one of our audience

857
00:48:18,745 --> 00:48:22,105
members. Thank you, May. And I'm
so sorry to do this, but May is

858
00:48:22,105 --> 00:48:23,065
saying it's May's fault.

859
00:48:23,065 --> 00:48:26,105
May is sending us to Twitter.
Well, I hope you all enjoyed

860
00:48:26,105 --> 00:48:27,080
having fun.

861
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,800
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I'm gonna
turn on both of my

862
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,200
Georgia Hampton: VPNs I'll take
it from here.

863
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:36,200
Hans Buetow: Oh, let's do it.
Jarta. Alright.

864
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:43,875
Georgia Hampton: We got a couple
of bathing suited gentlemen What

865
00:48:43,875 --> 00:48:44,035
Mike Rugnetta: am I

866
00:48:44,195 --> 00:48:45,475
Georgia Hampton: sharing a
delicate kiss in the ocean.

867
00:48:45,475 --> 00:48:46,755
Mike Rugnetta: What am I looking
at here?

868
00:48:46,755 --> 00:48:50,515
Georgia Hampton: And it said the
tweet says, Sabrina Carpenter's

869
00:48:50,515 --> 00:48:55,315
twink and Olivia Rodrigo's twink
dating each other is low key the

870
00:48:55,315 --> 00:48:58,640
most iconic thing in pop culture
with two sobbing faces.

871
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:00,480
Jason Oberholtzer: You know what
I've always wanted to really

872
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,480
ask? Chad, is this real?

873
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,240
Georgia Hampton: This is real?

874
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:07,520
Mike Rugnetta: Chad, is this
real?

875
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,555
Hans Buetow: So it's got
17,800,000 views for whatever

876
00:49:11,555 --> 00:49:15,395
that means on Twitter. Robots
robots have

877
00:49:15,395 --> 00:49:15,955
Mike Rugnetta: viewed this.

878
00:49:15,955 --> 00:49:16,835
Jason Oberholtzer: Robots can't.

879
00:49:16,835 --> 00:49:21,315
Mike Rugnetta: Georgia. Google.
Yes. Does this mean anything to

880
00:49:21,315 --> 00:49:21,475
you?

881
00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:29,340
Georgia Hampton: No. It does
not. I was gonna Google Sabrina

882
00:49:29,340 --> 00:49:30,860
Carpenter twink.

883
00:49:32,460 --> 00:49:34,380
Mike Rugnetta: Everyone's Make
sure you have a safe search on.

884
00:49:34,895 --> 00:49:36,735
Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Let me
turn on

885
00:49:36,655 --> 00:49:37,375
Mike Rugnetta: Just gonna lay on
the

886
00:49:37,375 --> 00:49:41,055
Georgia Hampton: ground first.
An incognito window real quick.

887
00:49:41,055 --> 00:49:46,815
Hold on, everybody. Oh, Conan
Gray. One of these people is

888
00:49:46,815 --> 00:49:47,375
Conan Gray.

889
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:48,550
Hans Buetow: Say more.

890
00:49:48,550 --> 00:49:49,590
Jason Oberholtzer: I don't know
what that is.

891
00:49:49,590 --> 00:49:51,670
Georgia Hampton: I don't know
this person, but they look sort

892
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:53,110
of familiar. They're 26 years
old.

893
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:54,710
Jason Oberholtzer: Sort of
familiar. I'll give them that.

894
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:58,950
Hans Buetow: Jin physicist May
in saying I'm pretty online and

895
00:49:58,950 --> 00:50:02,230
reasonably plugged into pop
music, and I have no idea what

896
00:50:02,230 --> 00:50:03,270
this post is about.

897
00:50:03,675 --> 00:50:06,315
Mike Rugnetta: That is the
spirit of the Wiggo. God, you

898
00:50:06,315 --> 00:50:08,475
nailed it. You nailed it.

899
00:50:08,475 --> 00:50:11,275
Georgia Hampton: I have another
AA overview. I'm so sorry.

900
00:50:11,275 --> 00:50:11,755
Hans Buetow: Do it. Do it.

901
00:50:11,755 --> 00:50:12,075
Mike Rugnetta: Do it.

902
00:50:12,075 --> 00:50:15,275
Georgia Hampton: Did Olivia
Rodrigo date Conan Gray? No.

903
00:50:16,750 --> 00:50:20,030
They are close friends who met
through their shared producer,

904
00:50:20,110 --> 00:50:26,670
Dan I don't know. Their shared
producer and bonded over their

905
00:50:26,670 --> 00:50:29,150
love for Taylor Swift. Their
friendship has been documented

906
00:50:29,150 --> 00:50:31,470
through various social media
posts, award show appearances,

907
00:50:31,470 --> 00:50:32,190
and shared experiences.

908
00:50:32,645 --> 00:50:40,725
I'm googling Conan Gray kissing.
More kisses? There's more

909
00:50:40,725 --> 00:50:44,965
kisses. Just taken up pictures
of people kissing. People

910
00:50:45,125 --> 00:50:45,925
kissing.

911
00:50:45,925 --> 00:50:51,420
No. We've been over this before,
Jason. I will never keep stop.

912
00:50:51,420 --> 00:50:52,860
Jason Oberholtzer: It's my news.

913
00:50:53,420 --> 00:50:56,620
Georgia Hampton: I need to see
it. I need to know that it's

914
00:50:56,620 --> 00:50:57,180
happening.

915
00:50:57,500 --> 00:51:00,860
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So that is
Corey Foglemanis.

916
00:51:02,485 --> 00:51:03,365
Georgia Hampton: Excuse me?

917
00:51:03,685 --> 00:51:06,565
Mike Rugnetta: I don't know. I'm
just so who's the guy grabbing

918
00:51:06,565 --> 00:51:10,405
Conan? Is one of the replies.
Oh. And then the response is

919
00:51:10,405 --> 00:51:13,525
Corey Foglemanis, which I'm sure
I'm saying wrong.

920
00:51:13,525 --> 00:51:16,570
Georgia Hampton: Confer, I'm
looking at more kissing photos.

921
00:51:16,570 --> 00:51:17,290
Jason Oberholtzer: Boy. It's
kinda

922
00:51:17,290 --> 00:51:18,010
Mike Rugnetta: true. Okay.

923
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:19,290
Hans Buetow: Do it. Do it. Do
it. Yeah.

924
00:51:19,290 --> 00:51:23,210
Georgia Hampton: Are those Corey
Fogelmanis and Conan Gray. I

925
00:51:24,090 --> 00:51:28,915
Google image searched them,
like, those two names. Lots of

926
00:51:28,915 --> 00:51:30,195
kissing photos.

927
00:51:30,515 --> 00:51:32,115
Jason Oberholtzer: More
important, are those bathing

928
00:51:32,115 --> 00:51:32,835
jorts?

929
00:51:33,635 --> 00:51:35,555
Georgia Hampton: Also, this the
waves look beautiful.

930
00:51:35,555 --> 00:51:37,475
Hans Buetow: They look I was
just thinking, Georgia. They

931
00:51:37,475 --> 00:51:38,355
look beautiful.

932
00:51:38,595 --> 00:51:39,955
Mike Rugnetta: This has to be
fake.

933
00:51:39,955 --> 00:51:42,035
Georgia Hampton: Right? I no.
That's what I mean is, like, the

934
00:51:42,035 --> 00:51:47,160
water looks so, like, airbrushed
sort of.

935
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:48,040
Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah.

936
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,400
Mike Rugnetta: One of the
replies way down thread is there

937
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,160
are sentences being created that
have never been created before.

938
00:51:57,945 --> 00:52:00,905
Georgia Hampton: Think that's so
kissing photos.

939
00:52:01,225 --> 00:52:04,585
Mike Rugnetta: George George,
we're at work.

940
00:52:04,585 --> 00:52:08,745
Georgia Hampton: They're they're
kissing all over the place.

941
00:52:09,385 --> 00:52:12,910
Mike Rugnetta: There is as as it
will surprise nobody, there is

942
00:52:12,910 --> 00:52:17,070
no information to be gleaned
from the reply thread on x.com,

943
00:52:17,070 --> 00:52:21,470
the everything website. Yeah.
This has this I'm I'm gonna say

944
00:52:21,470 --> 00:52:27,625
my best guess is that this is
AI. This is it possible? Hold

945
00:52:27,625 --> 00:52:28,105
on.

946
00:52:28,105 --> 00:52:31,225
I I might I might have an
answer.

947
00:52:32,105 --> 00:52:32,585
Jason Oberholtzer: There's
probably

948
00:52:32,585 --> 00:52:35,865
Mike Rugnetta: some guess that
this is a frame from a music

949
00:52:35,865 --> 00:52:37,385
video. Really?

950
00:52:37,385 --> 00:52:39,065
Georgia Hampton: Or a show. I
think they're on a show

951
00:52:39,065 --> 00:52:39,385
together.

952
00:52:39,740 --> 00:52:41,580
Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Here. I'm
not I haven't watched it yet,

953
00:52:41,580 --> 00:52:44,060
but I'm gonna drop it in the
chat. Uh-oh.

954
00:52:44,620 --> 00:52:47,020
Jason Oberholtzer: Always good.
Oh, no. They're I see. He's in

955
00:52:47,020 --> 00:52:47,660
jorts.

956
00:52:47,660 --> 00:52:48,860
Georgia Hampton: Baca Cranberry.

957
00:52:48,860 --> 00:52:50,860
Jason Oberholtzer: Woah. Desire
is kissing pants.

958
00:52:50,860 --> 00:52:54,865
Georgia Hampton: This is the
song. I have heard of this song.

959
00:52:54,865 --> 00:52:57,745
Mike Rugnetta: So here is the
link that I found it through.

960
00:52:59,825 --> 00:53:05,200
Pinknews.com. Fans left quote
devastated after Conan Gray

961
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,680
drops part two of his queer
music video romance.

962
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:09,840
Jason Oberholtzer: Devastating.
Come on.

963
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,800
Mike Rugnetta: Has two videos
where he kisses a boy in the

964
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:13,360
water.

965
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:14,880
Georgia Hampton: Good. There
should be

966
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:16,320
Jason Oberholtzer: more of them.
Stay, dude.

967
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,240
Georgia Hampton: I need at least
a dozen. Oh.

968
00:53:20,385 --> 00:53:22,305
Jason Oberholtzer: That's what's
going on here.

969
00:53:22,305 --> 00:53:26,625
Mike Rugnetta: Woah. That's
what's going on here. Wow. Okay.

970
00:53:26,625 --> 00:53:26,865
So

971
00:53:27,025 --> 00:53:27,745
Georgia Hampton: Gonna close

972
00:53:27,745 --> 00:53:30,225
Mike Rugnetta: a bunch of
because I still do not know who

973
00:53:30,225 --> 00:53:31,105
these people are.

974
00:53:31,825 --> 00:53:32,705
Jason Oberholtzer: And you don't
get to.

975
00:53:33,220 --> 00:53:35,700
Mike Rugnetta: Which one of them
so what I am to understand is

976
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:39,780
that one of them did they date
these other pop stars? One of

977
00:53:39,780 --> 00:53:42,260
them dated Sabrina Carpenter,
and one of them dated Olivia

978
00:53:42,260 --> 00:53:43,060
Rodrigo.

979
00:53:43,060 --> 00:53:45,060
Georgia Hampton: And They might
no. I think they're both friends

980
00:53:45,060 --> 00:53:47,060
with those respected pop divas.

981
00:53:47,505 --> 00:53:49,665
Hans Buetow: Pop series. Look
like them?

982
00:53:50,385 --> 00:53:52,225
Mike Rugnetta: No. Or that
they're pals and they're gay?

983
00:53:52,225 --> 00:53:53,985
Georgia Hampton: They're just
they're friends and they're gay

984
00:53:53,985 --> 00:53:55,345
and they're twinks and they're
in love.

985
00:53:55,345 --> 00:53:56,465
Mike Rugnetta: Okay. Okay.

986
00:53:56,465 --> 00:53:57,745
Georgia Hampton: Tale as old as
time.

987
00:53:57,825 --> 00:53:58,785
Mike Rugnetta: Tale as old as
time.

988
00:53:58,785 --> 00:54:02,570
Hans Buetow: Well, mate, I we
hope that's satisfying because

989
00:54:02,570 --> 00:54:03,690
that's what we know.

990
00:54:03,690 --> 00:54:07,770
Mike Rugnetta: And if if you
would like hours of tape of

991
00:54:07,770 --> 00:54:12,010
Georgia making typing sounds and
saying, I'm finding more

992
00:54:12,010 --> 00:54:12,730
kissing,

993
00:54:12,810 --> 00:54:14,085
Hans Buetow: do you need ring
tones

994
00:54:14,085 --> 00:54:16,405
Mike Rugnetta: because maybe we
got them?

995
00:54:17,685 --> 00:54:21,125
Georgia Hampton: Listen. I will
risk it all for journalism

996
00:54:21,525 --> 00:54:25,845
always. I will get to the bottom
of it Yeah. One way or another.

997
00:54:25,860 --> 00:54:26,100
I will

998
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:28,420
Mike Rugnetta: get in for of the
kissing on the end

999
00:54:28,420 --> 00:54:29,380
Georgia Hampton: of kissing.

1000
00:54:30,020 --> 00:54:32,100
Mike Rugnetta: Georgia will
reach the end of it.

1001
00:54:32,260 --> 00:54:34,580
Georgia Hampton: I will I will
shut it down.

1002
00:54:37,460 --> 00:54:40,505
Mike Rugnetta: Wow. I feel like
I know what's going on here.

1003
00:54:48,505 --> 00:54:51,625
Hey, friends. It's Mike here on
my way to the studio letting you

1004
00:54:51,625 --> 00:54:55,610
know that if you wanna hear the
rest of this WIGO, we are gonna

1005
00:54:55,610 --> 00:55:00,650
be putting it up for members at
neverpoe.st. A bunch of us on

1006
00:55:00,650 --> 00:55:02,890
the staff also had WIGOs to
share.

1007
00:55:02,970 --> 00:55:07,175
They're very funny, very
strange. One picture that just

1008
00:55:07,175 --> 00:55:10,695
looks disconcertingly like a
thumb. So if you wanna see that,

1009
00:55:10,695 --> 00:55:15,255
just head on over to neverpo.st.
Become a member, and it will be

1010
00:55:15,255 --> 00:55:17,575
waiting for you in the member
feed soon.

1011
00:55:38,265 --> 00:55:42,265
Jason Oberholtzer: Yes. Yes.
This is what I wanted. Yes. This

1012
00:55:42,265 --> 00:55:45,065
is everything that I wanted.

1013
00:55:45,385 --> 00:55:48,265
Yes. Yes. Never stop. Yes. Yes.

1014
00:55:48,505 --> 00:55:48,745
Yes.

1015
00:55:58,370 --> 00:56:01,090
Mike Rugnetta: Why did we stop
doing this? I know you're

1016
00:56:01,090 --> 00:56:03,170
supposed to think this about
things that were good when you

1017
00:56:03,170 --> 00:56:07,745
were a kid, but like This slaps.
Yeah. This is so This

1018
00:56:07,745 --> 00:56:10,065
objectively slaps. Right?

1019
00:56:16,465 --> 00:56:19,585
That is the show we have for you
this week. We're gonna be back

1020
00:56:19,585 --> 00:56:23,590
here in the main feed on
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membership. And with it,
knowledge that you are

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supporting the creation of
independent, employee owned,

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technology criticism that is not

1038
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1043
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Neverpoast's producers are
Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton,

1044
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:50,470
and the mysterious doctor first
name, last name. Our senior

1045
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:53,510
producer is Hans Buto. Our
executive producer is Jason

1046
00:57:53,510 --> 00:57:57,435
Oberholzer, and the show's host,
that's me, is Mike Rugnetta.

1047
00:57:57,915 --> 00:58:02,875
Reader unmoved and reader
unshaken, reader unseduced and

1048
00:58:02,875 --> 00:58:08,870
unterrified, through the long,
loud, and sweet still, I creep

1049
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:13,350
toward you. Towards you, I
thistle and I climb.

1050
00:58:13,910 --> 00:58:18,150
I crawl, reader, servile and
servine through this blank

1051
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:25,245
season counting. I sleep and I
sleep. I sleep reader toward you

1052
00:58:25,485 --> 00:58:35,005
loud as a cloud and deaf reader
deaf as a leaf. Excerpt of sweet

1053
00:58:35,005 --> 00:58:42,900
reader flanneled and told by
Olena Kalitiak Davis. Never Post

1054
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:47,140
is a production of Charts and
Leisure and is distributed by

1055
00:58:47,140 --> 00:58:47,940
Radiotopia.