1 00:00:02,820 --> 00:00:04,950 Emily: Welcome to AirSpace from the Smithsonian's 2 00:00:04,950 --> 00:00:06,510 National Air and Space Museum. 3 00:00:06,510 --> 00:00:07,140 I'm Emily. 4 00:00:07,650 --> 00:00:08,370 Matt: And I'm Matt. 5 00:00:08,850 --> 00:00:12,660 Pancho Barnes is a familiar figure to those who study the barnstorming 6 00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:16,590 era of flight, or anyone who's familiar with Edwards Air Force 7 00:00:16,590 --> 00:00:18,510 Base in the 1940s and fifties. 8 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:19,560 But outside of that. 9 00:00:20,189 --> 00:00:21,509 She's not as well known. 10 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:25,410 Emily: Pancho was an air racer, stunt pilot, party instigator, 11 00:00:25,650 --> 00:00:30,270 generous to a fault, larger than life character who lived far outside. 12 00:00:30,270 --> 00:00:33,120 The norms for women of her era and social class 13 00:00:33,269 --> 00:00:37,860 Matt: we're going through her life from indulgent childhood to Lonely 14 00:00:37,860 --> 00:00:41,760 Desert Death today on AirSpace sponsored by Lockheed Martin. 15 00:00:45,629 --> 00:00:49,890 Emily: To help us understand Pancho's life, we talked to one of her biographers. 16 00:00:50,205 --> 00:00:51,945 Lauren: I am Lauren Kessler. 17 00:00:52,275 --> 00:00:54,075 I live in the Pacific Northwest. 18 00:00:54,765 --> 00:01:00,905 I am a writer, author of 15 books, one of which is the biography of Pancho Barnes. 19 00:01:00,985 --> 00:01:03,675 Matt: So Pancho Barnes is an interesting character, right? 20 00:01:03,675 --> 00:01:08,655 She was born right at the turn of the 20th century in 1901. 21 00:01:08,955 --> 00:01:14,175 She wasn't actually born and given the name Pancho, which you might imagine. 22 00:01:14,535 --> 00:01:18,045 She was actually Florence Leontine Lowe. 23 00:01:18,465 --> 00:01:22,905 Her grandfather was an inventor and a balloonist who's credited 24 00:01:22,905 --> 00:01:25,845 as something like the great grandfather of the Air Force. 25 00:01:25,875 --> 00:01:29,535 Emily: So if you're a balloon nerd, like we are wannabe balloon nerds. 26 00:01:29,895 --> 00:01:34,425 Thadeus S. C. Lowe was one of the first balloonists in the Civil War, 27 00:01:34,425 --> 00:01:37,995 and he would take his balloon up with a tether and he would telegraph the 28 00:01:37,995 --> 00:01:40,245 Confederacy's movements to the Union Army. 29 00:01:40,485 --> 00:01:44,835 And he liked to call himself the most shot at man in the war. 30 00:01:45,405 --> 00:01:50,265 Matt: By the time Florence was born, the low money was gone, but her mother's 31 00:01:50,265 --> 00:01:53,265 family, the Dobbins were still very rich. 32 00:01:53,535 --> 00:01:59,655 So she was raised in the lap of luxury in San Marino, California, just outside 33 00:01:59,655 --> 00:02:04,425 of Pasadena, where her family were part of the upper class that ruled society. 34 00:02:04,664 --> 00:02:07,875 Lauren: Actually, the thing that that really fascinated me about 35 00:02:07,875 --> 00:02:11,595 Pancho was that given when she. 36 00:02:12,185 --> 00:02:17,765 Was born the, the culture in which she was born, especially the the female culture 37 00:02:17,765 --> 00:02:23,054 in which she was born, the economic class in which she was born, that the 38 00:02:23,054 --> 00:02:30,495 expectation for her life was so different than how she made her life become. 39 00:02:30,885 --> 00:02:39,405 So she was, um, born into wealth, Pasadena, California Wealth, and she 40 00:02:39,405 --> 00:02:46,755 was, she was destined, I think to have that kind of, um, privileged protected. 41 00:02:47,145 --> 00:02:48,915 Female existence. 42 00:02:49,275 --> 00:02:55,305 Her, her grandfather was a great adventurer and uh, an aviator and they 43 00:02:55,305 --> 00:02:58,815 had a very close relationship at the beginning, and I think that, that, that 44 00:02:58,815 --> 00:03:05,685 ignited absolutely ignited her love of being in the air and taking risks. 45 00:03:05,954 --> 00:03:08,115 Emily: So, Thaddeus, I think we can blame Thaddeus. 46 00:03:08,430 --> 00:03:14,100 Matt for Pancho's sense of adventure, her grandfather really kind of instilled 47 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:18,210 that sense of adventure into Pancho and he was the one that took her to her very 48 00:03:18,210 --> 00:03:22,950 first air show where she was introduced to planes for the very first time in 1910. 49 00:03:23,775 --> 00:03:26,954 Matt: And you know, we've talked about these early days of, of flight 50 00:03:26,954 --> 00:03:28,334 and how adventurous they were. 51 00:03:28,515 --> 00:03:32,984 If you were going to an air show, you were seeing people in small planes doing 52 00:03:33,015 --> 00:03:35,535 really cool acrobatic things, right? 53 00:03:35,685 --> 00:03:36,135 Emily: Totally. 54 00:03:36,135 --> 00:03:39,465 And her grandfather, Thaddeus, and to some extent, her father 55 00:03:39,465 --> 00:03:40,845 really treated Florence. 56 00:03:41,030 --> 00:03:44,450 Soon to be Pancho like the son in the family. 57 00:03:44,850 --> 00:03:48,620 Pancho did have an older brother, but he was sickly and he died of 58 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:50,540 leukemia when Pancho was just 12. 59 00:03:50,630 --> 00:03:55,910 And I think this is really interesting the way this kind of era really 60 00:03:55,910 --> 00:04:02,240 likes to ensure gender roles are upheld to a certain point, right? 61 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,280 When kids are really little, it doesn't matter nearly as 62 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:05,390 much as when they get older. 63 00:04:05,420 --> 00:04:05,720 Matt: Yeah. 64 00:04:06,105 --> 00:04:08,505 She was taught to ride horses very young. 65 00:04:08,775 --> 00:04:10,035 She was taught to shoot. 66 00:04:10,215 --> 00:04:14,055 She was allowed to ride and shoot all over her parents and grandparents' 67 00:04:14,055 --> 00:04:19,005 estates, and she basically did what she wanted when she wanted to, and was cared 68 00:04:19,005 --> 00:04:23,805 for by servants and nannies and never had to really learn anything domestic. 69 00:04:24,075 --> 00:04:26,685 Her education began with private tutors. 70 00:04:27,105 --> 00:04:30,645 She spent some time at the local public school, but after her 71 00:04:30,645 --> 00:04:34,305 brother died, her mother realized she would need more handling. 72 00:04:34,770 --> 00:04:38,700 Lauren: She was sent away and, and went through a few private schools. 73 00:04:39,330 --> 00:04:44,130 The curriculum at those schools for girls would certainly not have been 74 00:04:44,130 --> 00:04:51,120 anything, um, that would prepare one to, um, get in an airplane or, or understand 75 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,420 flight or physics or anything like that. 76 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:59,790 It was leading a quiet domestic life and taking care of a family. 77 00:05:00,570 --> 00:05:03,900 She misbehaved, I mean, she was sort of. 78 00:05:04,145 --> 00:05:09,935 Genetically, I don't know, uh, destined to misbehave from an early age. 79 00:05:09,935 --> 00:05:15,185 And so she did kind of get kicked out for pranks that I don't know that we 80 00:05:15,185 --> 00:05:17,045 would kick out anybody these days. 81 00:05:17,045 --> 00:05:22,055 But she, she didn't fit into the private school, quiet girl, well 82 00:05:22,055 --> 00:05:28,715 dressed niche that her parents and her society would want her to also note 83 00:05:28,805 --> 00:05:31,805 that, um, they married her off at 18. 84 00:05:32,690 --> 00:05:34,130 To, um, a minister, 85 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:40,550 which anybody who reads about or knows about Pancho's life 86 00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:43,160 would think is beyond ironic. 87 00:05:43,460 --> 00:05:47,330 Emily: His name was C. Rankin Barnes and he was her mother's choice. 88 00:05:47,660 --> 00:05:51,470 And though Florence had little interest in being society's idea of a good 89 00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:54,080 wife, she did wanna please her mother. 90 00:05:54,470 --> 00:05:57,140 And while Barnes wasn't rich, he was respectable and he was. 91 00:05:57,539 --> 00:06:00,810 A calming influence and Florence's mother really hoped that that 92 00:06:00,810 --> 00:06:02,549 would rub off on her daughter. 93 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:03,630 Matt: Well, it didn't. 94 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:03,930 Right. 95 00:06:03,930 --> 00:06:04,260 Surprise, 96 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:04,740 Emily: surprise. 97 00:06:04,799 --> 00:06:06,120 You all saw that plot twist coming. 98 00:06:06,450 --> 00:06:06,690 Matt: Yeah. 99 00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:07,049 Right. 100 00:06:07,049 --> 00:06:08,070 That's not a surprise. 101 00:06:08,070 --> 00:06:09,330 Spoiler, not spoiler. 102 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:09,630 Whatever. 103 00:06:12,180 --> 00:06:15,930 Following the wedding, Florence got pregnant on their honeymoon. 104 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:20,669 They returned to the rectory where she found life stifling, lacking in 105 00:06:20,669 --> 00:06:24,750 the comforts and the servants that she was used to, and also having known 106 00:06:24,750 --> 00:06:26,430 of the freedoms that she was used to. 107 00:06:26,789 --> 00:06:27,210 So. 108 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:32,700 She decided to go out and spend her time the way that she always had with 109 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:34,560 the horses on her parents' estate. 110 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,340 So she kind of left the rectory, went back to the horses. 111 00:06:38,430 --> 00:06:42,090 Emily: So after her son Billy was born, Florence tried to play the 112 00:06:42,090 --> 00:06:43,440 part of the wife and mother, but. 113 00:06:43,784 --> 00:06:45,585 It just not her vibe. 114 00:06:45,585 --> 00:06:45,854 Right? 115 00:06:46,185 --> 00:06:51,495 And she discovered this new big adventure that she was looking for in Hollywood. 116 00:06:51,974 --> 00:06:56,414 Matt: She started hanging around movie sets as you do, and found out that her 117 00:06:56,414 --> 00:07:01,424 well-trained horses and skillful riding meant that she was welcome and paid. 118 00:07:01,755 --> 00:07:04,995 This was the era of the horse opera, the Western. 119 00:07:05,115 --> 00:07:08,354 So horses were playing a pretty big role in cinema. 120 00:07:08,625 --> 00:07:10,245 Emily: Working in Hollywood meant that. 121 00:07:10,715 --> 00:07:15,315 Pancho had her own money from which she was able to pay for a nanny and 122 00:07:15,315 --> 00:07:16,635 move out of her husband's house. 123 00:07:16,905 --> 00:07:19,664 Basically allowing her to do whatever she wanted. 124 00:07:20,025 --> 00:07:24,555 And so she would never again live with Barnes, her husband, though they would 125 00:07:24,555 --> 00:07:28,635 spark a sort of odd kind of distant friendship for many years after that. 126 00:07:28,755 --> 00:07:32,145 And being married, but not having to take care of a wife seemed to 127 00:07:32,145 --> 00:07:34,215 suit her husband Barnes, just fine. 128 00:07:34,425 --> 00:07:38,265 Matt: And this is in many ways where the adventure of Pancho Barnes begins, right? 129 00:07:38,265 --> 00:07:42,224 Because now that she's free from her husband, she can actually become. 130 00:07:42,585 --> 00:07:43,234 Pancho. 131 00:07:43,475 --> 00:07:48,665 So she spends a lot of time going on whatever adventure is sort of in 132 00:07:48,665 --> 00:07:53,045 front of her at that moment, including dressing as a man and signing on as 133 00:07:53,045 --> 00:07:58,265 a sailor on a Mexican banana boat, which wasn't in fact really a banana 134 00:07:58,265 --> 00:08:03,605 boat, but a gun running boat that was bringing guns to Mexico, which was in 135 00:08:03,605 --> 00:08:05,555 the midst of a civil war at the time. 136 00:08:05,735 --> 00:08:08,555 So, you know, not just small adventures. 137 00:08:08,565 --> 00:08:12,105 Like a road trip across America, but like running guns to 138 00:08:12,105 --> 00:08:13,965 Mexico type of adventure here. 139 00:08:14,205 --> 00:08:15,344 These are epics. 140 00:08:15,945 --> 00:08:19,365 Eventually she had to leave the ship with one of her friends and find her 141 00:08:19,365 --> 00:08:21,465 way back to California over land, 142 00:08:21,855 --> 00:08:28,125 Lauren: and according to her, traversed the width of Mexico from the uh, 143 00:08:28,155 --> 00:08:34,544 Atlantic to the Gulf of Mexico, most of the times on the back of a donkey. 144 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:41,820 So according to her, this guy friend said, you look just like Sancho Panza. 145 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,900 Except for he mispronounced it and said Pancho Sanchez. 146 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:51,630 So Pancho became her adopted name from that time, F. F forever. 147 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:53,700 She never really called herself Florence again. 148 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:57,390 Emily: And this is the beginning of Pancho Barnes, which I love this story 149 00:08:57,390 --> 00:09:02,310 because she was already on her way to becoming Pancho, but like this is kind 150 00:09:02,310 --> 00:09:03,870 of where that whole persona is born. 151 00:09:03,870 --> 00:09:05,280 So I really love this story. 152 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,410 And of course, she was onto her next adventure off of a boat, into the air. 153 00:09:10,695 --> 00:09:12,885 Horses aren't an inexpensive hobby. 154 00:09:12,885 --> 00:09:18,525 Pancho has expensive taste, and when her mother dies in 1923, Pancho was left as 155 00:09:18,525 --> 00:09:23,145 the heir and inherits an awful lot of money and a whole bunch of real estate. 156 00:09:23,355 --> 00:09:27,975 And so now that she's really got all this extra money and she's looking yet 157 00:09:27,975 --> 00:09:31,545 again for a new adventure, Pancho follows a cousin who was interested in taking 158 00:09:31,545 --> 00:09:35,535 flying lessons at a local airstrip, and she took one look at that airplane 159 00:09:35,535 --> 00:09:38,115 and decided she had to do it too. 160 00:09:38,535 --> 00:09:39,045 And the 161 00:09:39,045 --> 00:09:44,564 Lauren: first time that she was taken up, the pilot in question, did all 162 00:09:44,564 --> 00:09:46,125 kinds of moves to make her sick. 163 00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:52,590 Like throw up sick, uh, whatever you would do, I would be, I'm sick, 164 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:56,400 even just thinking about the barrel rolls and all this kind of stuff. 165 00:09:56,430 --> 00:10:02,160 And she, you know, just according to her, just loved it and was, you know, 166 00:10:02,189 --> 00:10:07,620 enjoying herself and laughing and proved herself in that moment to this 167 00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:13,230 cantankerous curmudgeonly pilot who said, sure, now I'll give you lessons. 168 00:10:13,605 --> 00:10:15,705 Matt: But as we said, you know, she has the money. 169 00:10:15,705 --> 00:10:19,785 So once she actually takes the lessons, she spends some of her 170 00:10:19,785 --> 00:10:24,765 inheritance on one plane, then another plane, and then another. 171 00:10:24,945 --> 00:10:28,215 And you know, pretty clearly she is hooked on aviation. 172 00:10:28,365 --> 00:10:30,555 Emily: And this is kind of a brilliant time to be getting hooked 173 00:10:30,555 --> 00:10:35,925 into aviation because just like she used her expertise in horses. 174 00:10:36,385 --> 00:10:38,724 And riding to get involved in Hollywood. 175 00:10:38,724 --> 00:10:43,555 She then takes this new skill flying into Hollywood and really leverages 176 00:10:43,555 --> 00:10:47,844 her connections there and her interest in being part of the silver screens 177 00:10:47,844 --> 00:10:52,045 world to get jobs flying in the movies. 178 00:10:52,494 --> 00:10:55,885 She also saw firsthand the dangerous conditions and the. 179 00:10:56,265 --> 00:11:00,675 Miserably low pay that her and her fellow pilots were receiving as 180 00:11:00,675 --> 00:11:02,175 part of this really dangerous work. 181 00:11:02,385 --> 00:11:05,895 And so she founded the Association of Motion Picture Pilots, which is 182 00:11:05,895 --> 00:11:08,565 the first stunt pilots union in 1930. 183 00:11:08,835 --> 00:11:12,375 Matt: And outside of the movie work, she was also flying in races. 184 00:11:12,375 --> 00:11:14,490 At this time, she was a member of the 90 nines. 185 00:11:15,130 --> 00:11:18,100 We've talked about them before on this show, and she flew in 186 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:22,840 the 1929 Women's Air Derby, which was the first of those derbies. 187 00:11:23,260 --> 00:11:28,930 She crashed out early in that race, but returned in 1930 to win the whole thing. 188 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,420 She also set the women's air speed record in 1930, taking that from. 189 00:11:34,584 --> 00:11:36,625 Amelia Earhart, America's sweetheart, 190 00:11:36,864 --> 00:11:39,594 Emily: and at this time she was also sponsored by an oil company and 191 00:11:39,594 --> 00:11:43,525 making money test flying airplanes for various companies, mostly Lockheed. 192 00:11:43,974 --> 00:11:47,694 The manufacturers got the best of both worlds with her, a highly 193 00:11:47,694 --> 00:11:51,625 competent and accomplished pilot, and a woman who would shame men who were 194 00:11:51,625 --> 00:11:54,594 afraid to fly by her mere presence. 195 00:11:55,140 --> 00:11:56,820 I love this part of the story, Matt. 196 00:11:57,060 --> 00:11:58,170 I love this. 197 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,370 I love this. 198 00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:02,939 Hey guys, if she can do it, let's get Come on. 199 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:03,960 Come on. 200 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:06,870 Matt: And, and we know that this was kind of a tactic at the time. 201 00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:10,439 Margaret Weitekamp has a chapter about this in her book, right? 202 00:12:10,439 --> 00:12:11,730 Stuff Wrong Sex, right? 203 00:12:12,095 --> 00:12:16,535 If you can get a woman to fly an airplane that men are afraid to fly 'cause they 204 00:12:16,535 --> 00:12:21,215 think it's a death trap, then it kind of makes them feel ashamed for being 205 00:12:21,215 --> 00:12:22,925 afraid to fly the thing they did. 206 00:12:22,925 --> 00:12:24,815 The same thing with the B 29. 207 00:12:25,145 --> 00:12:28,475 If a woman can fly it, then what are you so scared of? 208 00:12:28,655 --> 00:12:33,395 It's totally sexist, but it was great propaganda to get men to fly these 209 00:12:33,395 --> 00:12:35,855 planes that were in fact dangerous. 210 00:12:35,975 --> 00:12:39,035 But you know, these skilled women pilots could pull it off. 211 00:12:39,465 --> 00:12:42,645 Emily: I just, I just envision Pancho Barnes just like showing 212 00:12:42,645 --> 00:12:46,455 up to work one day, like laughing all the way to the airplane. 213 00:12:46,455 --> 00:12:46,545 Mm-hmm. 214 00:12:46,785 --> 00:12:51,915 Because she's just smug and brave and is like, what's the big deal boys? 215 00:12:51,915 --> 00:12:53,115 Like, let's get it together. 216 00:12:53,115 --> 00:12:54,314 Like, let's get it done. 217 00:12:54,435 --> 00:12:56,865 Matt: So, you know, she's really enjoying flying. 218 00:12:56,865 --> 00:12:59,745 She's spending all the money that she'd inherited. 219 00:13:00,064 --> 00:13:03,995 Buying planes and throwing more or less constant parties for her 220 00:13:03,995 --> 00:13:08,555 aviation and Hollywood friends on her several properties. 221 00:13:08,855 --> 00:13:12,485 She was kind of the great Gatsby of the aviation world in a sense. 222 00:13:12,485 --> 00:13:17,615 Here she's generous to a fault and would feed water and put up just about anyone 223 00:13:17,885 --> 00:13:19,955 who she liked and considered a friend. 224 00:13:21,180 --> 00:13:24,150 Emily: But when the depression hit Pancho's free spending ways 225 00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:25,740 started to become a strain. 226 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:27,180 She was out of money. 227 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:30,960 She was forced to sell most of her properties, and she decided to move to 228 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,030 the desert, which I can't say I blame her. 229 00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:34,140 I really like the desert. 230 00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:35,580 Matt: I like that idea. 231 00:13:35,670 --> 00:13:35,940 Yeah. 232 00:13:35,970 --> 00:13:37,740 Emily: Although you're from the desert, so I can see why 233 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:39,030 you might be nostalgic for it. 234 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:39,390 Matt: I am. 235 00:13:39,660 --> 00:13:39,960 Yeah. 236 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:43,980 Lauren: So she sold those properties probably at a loss that, and 237 00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:46,320 these are the properties that are part of her inheritance, 238 00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:49,350 and that was what funded this. 239 00:13:49,915 --> 00:13:55,255 I was, I'm going to say God forsaken chunk of land out in the Mojave Desert. 240 00:13:55,345 --> 00:13:59,425 Matt: So it wasn't that she was moving somewhere completely unknown to her. 241 00:13:59,575 --> 00:14:04,015 She had actually done a lot of flying over the Mojave Desert and had seen from 242 00:14:04,015 --> 00:14:08,635 the air, a dry lake that looked like the perfect place to set up an airstrip. 243 00:14:08,935 --> 00:14:09,955 So that's what she did. 244 00:14:09,955 --> 00:14:16,345 In 1935, she bought an alfalfa farm in Muroc, California and established 245 00:14:16,345 --> 00:14:18,055 a ranch and an airstrip there. 246 00:14:18,620 --> 00:14:21,110 Emily: So over the next six years, Pancho raised horses, 247 00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:23,510 obviously dogs, pigs, and cows. 248 00:14:23,540 --> 00:14:28,820 She built buildings, alienated her neighbors, and built Rancho Oro Verde. 249 00:14:29,270 --> 00:14:31,710 The guest ranch and restaurant was popular with Pancho's 250 00:14:31,730 --> 00:14:33,290 Aviation and Hollywood friends. 251 00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:37,730 Lauren: She had an airstrip, so her Hollywood friends and her, 252 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,130 uh, flying friends could fly in. 253 00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:45,650 And then there was a restaurant and she had some girls there who. 254 00:14:46,050 --> 00:14:48,090 Were offering more than food. 255 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,850 It was called the Happy Bottom Riding Club. 256 00:14:51,465 --> 00:14:57,915 Riding as in horse and the happy bottom part you would think would be, you 257 00:14:57,915 --> 00:15:00,285 know, some sort of a sexual reference. 258 00:15:00,855 --> 00:15:04,065 And maybe it was for her, a double entendre, I don't know. 259 00:15:04,065 --> 00:15:07,545 But it was explained as when you rode one of her horses, 260 00:15:07,545 --> 00:15:09,375 you, you got a happy bottom. 261 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,140 Matt: And the Happy Bottom Riding Club was also very popular with the 262 00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:16,650 servicemen at nearby Muroc Army airfield. 263 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,120 There was literally like nothing else around for the Army flyers 264 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,620 to do, and Muroc itself was just tents and an airstrip in those days. 265 00:15:25,890 --> 00:15:28,450 So the men spent a lot of their time at Panchos. 266 00:15:28,620 --> 00:15:29,580 She fed them. 267 00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:33,620 Got them drunk and rented them horses to go riding in the desert. 268 00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:36,890 Hopefully not when they're drunk, but you know, the drinking maybe 269 00:15:36,890 --> 00:15:38,540 came after the horseback riding. 270 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:39,560 Emily: We can hope, man. 271 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:39,740 Yeah. 272 00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:43,100 Slowly Pancho's place grew and so did the airfield. 273 00:15:43,339 --> 00:15:46,910 The army hired her to haul away their garbage, which she fed to her pigs. 274 00:15:46,969 --> 00:15:50,630 We love a reduced, reuse, recycle moment and also provide 275 00:15:50,630 --> 00:15:52,040 milk and meat to the base. 276 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,410 She was friends with many of the flyers and the commanders and was very popular. 277 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,260 And then Pearl Harbor happened and the airfield got very busy. 278 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,480 Matt: So the busyness of the war to come brought Pancho a lot of business. 279 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:12,180 By 1941, Pancho had developed her land into a combination airport in 280 00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:17,339 club, restaurant, and ranch, and the many, many trainees that passed 281 00:16:17,339 --> 00:16:21,720 in and out of Muroc kept business steady for Pancho during the war. 282 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,650 Emily: But this is a theme. 283 00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:28,150 Pancho was very bad with money and constantly just ahead of her bills. 284 00:16:28,450 --> 00:16:32,530 She had also gotten divorced in the later war years, and she would marry and divorce 285 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,450 three other men throughout her life. 286 00:16:34,930 --> 00:16:39,550 By the end of the war, Muroc Army Airfield was a sprawling hub of army 287 00:16:39,550 --> 00:16:43,420 flying activity, and in addition to basic flight training and bombing, the base 288 00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:48,070 was also home to a top secret rocket plane development and testing program. 289 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,340 So then this is where we get to talk about The Right Stuff. 290 00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:52,570 Matt: That's right. 291 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:53,050 Yeah. 292 00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:55,360 So if you've seen the movie, The Right Stuff, 293 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Emily: I've seen it, Matt. 294 00:16:56,205 --> 00:17:00,495 Matt: Then this is where things start to get familiar for you because 295 00:17:00,495 --> 00:17:05,565 after the war, the club and the other business thrived and it was thriving 296 00:17:05,685 --> 00:17:09,585 thanks to test pilots, the ones that are featured in the right stuff. 297 00:17:09,885 --> 00:17:13,335 And in 1946, the base was transferred to the brand new Air 298 00:17:13,335 --> 00:17:17,775 Force and throughout the forties and fifties, many records were broken. 299 00:17:17,965 --> 00:17:22,915 And new planes were tested and Pancho's was the center of celebration 300 00:17:23,005 --> 00:17:25,075 for all of the test pilots. 301 00:17:25,375 --> 00:17:27,875 Emily: So the movie, the Right stuff is when I first met Pancho 302 00:17:27,895 --> 00:17:32,005 Barnes, but I didn't know that I was meeting Pancho Barnes until we 303 00:17:32,005 --> 00:17:33,985 did our episode on the 90 nines. 304 00:17:34,315 --> 00:17:36,205 So I'd known about Pancho Barnes a long time. 305 00:17:36,205 --> 00:17:37,135 I just, I didn't know that. 306 00:17:37,135 --> 00:17:38,455 I knew Pancho Barnes. 307 00:17:38,455 --> 00:17:38,965 Matt: Mm-hmm. 308 00:17:39,290 --> 00:17:43,340 Emily: Test piloting has to be an incredibly stressful, but also like 309 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:45,379 adrenaline pumping kind of job. 310 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,780 And so they used Panchos to blow off steam before and after test flights or 311 00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:52,669 to celebrate and mourn the lives of. 312 00:17:54,014 --> 00:17:58,514 And to celebrate or mourn the lives of many test pilots that quote unquote, 313 00:17:58,665 --> 00:18:03,075 augered in to the hard ground of the desert and augered in here means maybe 314 00:18:03,105 --> 00:18:07,395 what you think it might mean, which is essentially crashing and dying. 315 00:18:07,995 --> 00:18:11,995 Like we said, test piloting is an incredibly dangerous job. 316 00:18:11,995 --> 00:18:18,264 And so having a community space like this where test pilots can congregate 317 00:18:18,594 --> 00:18:23,965 and pay tribute to their colleagues was a really valuable and important role 318 00:18:23,965 --> 00:18:25,885 that the Happy Bottom Riding Club played. 319 00:18:26,094 --> 00:18:30,534 Matt: One pilot who was a lifelong friend of Pancho's was Chuck Yeager, who in 320 00:18:30,534 --> 00:18:35,905 1947 broke the sound barrier, but the night before that history making flight. 321 00:18:36,294 --> 00:18:39,294 Chuck and his wife were enjoying Pancho's hospitality. 322 00:18:39,415 --> 00:18:42,054 Lauren: The night before he was going to go up in the airplane to 323 00:18:42,054 --> 00:18:43,705 try and break the sound barrier. 324 00:18:43,705 --> 00:18:48,534 He was on one of Pancho's horses and he might have been inebriated 325 00:18:48,534 --> 00:18:52,554 a little bit, or maybe he just is not a good horseback rider. 326 00:18:52,554 --> 00:18:53,125 I don't know. 327 00:18:53,844 --> 00:18:56,604 But the horse collided with a fence. 328 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:03,450 On the way back to the corral and Chuck broke one of his ribs and he did not want 329 00:19:03,450 --> 00:19:07,890 to tell, he didn't wanna tell anybody because that would've, uh, grounded him. 330 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,260 So he had maybe a private doctor or a friend or somebody tape him up. 331 00:19:13,575 --> 00:19:19,005 And this is the story he tells and he gets in the plane and he can't actually torque 332 00:19:19,005 --> 00:19:21,975 his body to close the door of the plane. 333 00:19:22,215 --> 00:19:26,145 So he has a little stick that he brings with him and closes it up. 334 00:19:26,535 --> 00:19:30,885 And, uh, so with his broken rib, gotten on a horse. 335 00:19:31,215 --> 00:19:33,714 Given to him, rented to him by Pancho Barnes. 336 00:19:33,735 --> 00:19:34,995 He breaks the sound barrier 337 00:19:35,205 --> 00:19:36,254 Emily: the way Chuck tells it. 338 00:19:36,254 --> 00:19:39,465 He and his wife were racing back to the barn and he didn't see the gate 339 00:19:39,465 --> 00:19:40,935 was closed until it was too late. 340 00:19:41,475 --> 00:19:44,655 It was a local veterinarian who taped up his ribs. 341 00:19:44,865 --> 00:19:46,305 I mean, ribs are ribs, right? 342 00:19:46,305 --> 00:19:46,545 Matt? 343 00:19:46,725 --> 00:19:47,145 Matt: Sure. 344 00:19:47,145 --> 00:19:47,655 Why not? 345 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:52,470 So this was all during the Golden Era for the Happy Bottom Riding Club. 346 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:56,910 But then in the late 1940s, a new commander was determined to 347 00:19:56,910 --> 00:20:00,990 bring the newly renamed Edwards Air Force base into military 348 00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:04,080 decorum and efficiency discipline. 349 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:04,560 Right? 350 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,860 He detested Pancho and the feeling was mutual. 351 00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:09,480 It took him a few years. 352 00:20:09,575 --> 00:20:14,225 But the days of the by the seat of your pants test pilots and the club where 353 00:20:14,225 --> 00:20:16,805 they felt at home were fast disappearing. 354 00:20:17,165 --> 00:20:20,525 Also, I mean, we could say there's a difference in the culture of test 355 00:20:20,525 --> 00:20:24,665 pilots at this time, too, which is that at the, in the days of Chuck 356 00:20:24,665 --> 00:20:28,145 Yeager test pilots were cowboys, right? 357 00:20:28,175 --> 00:20:31,685 They weren't necessarily people who were trained in engineering. 358 00:20:32,105 --> 00:20:36,125 They were flying the planes to make sure that they, you know, worked 359 00:20:36,125 --> 00:20:38,975 and to look for problems later. 360 00:20:39,344 --> 00:20:44,235 The test pilots that, especially the ones that kind of go on to become astronauts, 361 00:20:44,625 --> 00:20:48,705 this new generation of test pilots, most of them have backgrounds in engineering. 362 00:20:49,064 --> 00:20:52,514 They're flying much more sophisticated airplanes where you have to have that 363 00:20:52,514 --> 00:20:56,024 kind of expertise to troubleshoot what's happening in the plane. 364 00:20:56,264 --> 00:20:58,875 So the culture of the test pilots change too. 365 00:20:59,115 --> 00:21:01,965 Not that they don't still like to drink and have a good time, but 366 00:21:01,965 --> 00:21:05,985 they're not quite the same as the cowboys of the Chuck Yeager days. 367 00:21:06,675 --> 00:21:10,515 Emily: So even though Edwards Air Force Base was huge at this time, 368 00:21:11,025 --> 00:21:12,730 the Air Force was looking to expand. 369 00:21:13,485 --> 00:21:18,705 Even more and hoping to build a very long runway for experimental nuclear planes 370 00:21:18,945 --> 00:21:21,015 that went right through Pancho's Land 371 00:21:21,345 --> 00:21:26,715 Matt: and in the early 1950s, ranch after ranch around Pancho's was being bought up 372 00:21:26,715 --> 00:21:28,845 by the government through eminent domain. 373 00:21:29,175 --> 00:21:34,095 Eventually, the government came to her with an offer, and for her 360 374 00:21:34,095 --> 00:21:39,975 mostly developed acres with water and buildings, they offered her $205,000. 375 00:21:40,305 --> 00:21:42,015 Which she felt was insulting. 376 00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:44,685 Emily: I mean, I can kind of, I see the point though, right Matt? 377 00:21:44,685 --> 00:21:48,555 Like if somebody said 360 acres, that's a lot of land and. 378 00:21:49,215 --> 00:21:52,485 If you think about everything that had built there, this wasn't, this 379 00:21:52,485 --> 00:21:55,515 wasn't 360 acres of, of desert. 380 00:21:55,515 --> 00:21:59,925 This was 360 developed acres, which means it's not just about the land, 381 00:21:59,925 --> 00:22:03,465 it's about everything that's on the land and all the investments she's made. 382 00:22:03,795 --> 00:22:06,945 Lauren: But she was a major thorn in their side. 383 00:22:06,945 --> 00:22:10,370 I mean, bigger than a thorn, whatever is, whatever is a. A big 384 00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:16,010 thing in their side and they could not wait for her to, um, to leave. 385 00:22:16,190 --> 00:22:16,460 Matt: Yeah. 386 00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:21,200 And eminent domain allows the government to buy the property, and the property 387 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,850 owner really has to go along with it, but they're also supposed to get 388 00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:28,280 a fair market value for that land. 389 00:22:29,150 --> 00:22:33,020 Emily: So Pancho sued and she argued that her land was much more. 390 00:22:33,315 --> 00:22:37,125 Valuable than what the government was offering and that the government 391 00:22:37,125 --> 00:22:40,275 was ruining her business and her livelihood and that she 392 00:22:40,275 --> 00:22:41,655 should be compensated for that. 393 00:22:42,075 --> 00:22:44,835 But while waiting for the courts, several of her buildings were 394 00:22:44,835 --> 00:22:47,505 lost in a fire of unknown origin. 395 00:22:47,835 --> 00:22:50,745 Signs were pointing to arson, but it was never fully determined. 396 00:22:50,805 --> 00:22:52,335 And if it had been arson. 397 00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:55,530 There was no signs pointing to a particular culprit. 398 00:22:55,740 --> 00:22:58,560 Lauren: You can see where some of the buildings were. 399 00:22:58,650 --> 00:23:03,840 There's some foundation there and there's a little bit of rubble every once you can 400 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:10,800 see that something was there, but pretty much everything burned and that was it. 401 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,680 I mean, first of all, she couldn't rebuild because there was no money, 402 00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:18,900 and also she couldn't rebuild because the Air Force wanted to take over the 403 00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:21,810 land, but she, she wanted to try again. 404 00:23:22,185 --> 00:23:26,775 And she had a plan that was some, you know, sort of a harebrained plan. 405 00:23:26,775 --> 00:23:31,065 Just do do some other kind of, not Happy Bottom Riding Club, but some other 406 00:23:31,065 --> 00:23:34,365 kind of horse thing someplace else. 407 00:23:34,785 --> 00:23:38,505 Matt: And so Pancho got some money against the initial government offer 408 00:23:38,835 --> 00:23:40,635 and was forced to leave the land. 409 00:23:41,034 --> 00:23:44,935 She moved all of her animals and her planes and her fourth husband 410 00:23:45,294 --> 00:23:49,014 to an even more desolate stretch of desert called Gypsy Springs. 411 00:23:49,105 --> 00:23:53,725 Emily: Eventually, through court cases, Pancho got more than $400,000 412 00:23:53,725 --> 00:23:55,195 from the government for her land. 413 00:23:55,195 --> 00:24:01,075 In 1956, she used that money to buy more land in and around Gypsy Springs 414 00:24:01,495 --> 00:24:03,685 and farm equipment and airplanes. 415 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,470 And horses to put on it. 416 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,640 Matt: But unfortunately, Gypsy Springs was not a lot like Muroc. 417 00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:11,230 She had no farm. 418 00:24:11,230 --> 00:24:15,310 The land wasn't fertile, and she had nowhere to stable her horses 419 00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:16,720 and nothing to feed them with. 420 00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:20,560 She no longer had contracts with the military and she had 421 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,240 no customers in the form of. 422 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,199 Board service members, and despite all her generosity, she 423 00:24:27,199 --> 00:24:28,730 had no friends at this point. 424 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,350 Emily: She was also deeply unwell. 425 00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:33,800 She had had high blood pressure most of her life, and now she had breast 426 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,240 cancer, which had been treated. 427 00:24:35,419 --> 00:24:38,540 Then she had a thyroid problem, which you could eventually treat through 428 00:24:38,540 --> 00:24:42,530 medication, and she had been living large and rough her whole life. 429 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,120 Matt: So she had had all these issues. 430 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:48,169 A lot of them had been treated, but now she's living in a shack. 431 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:49,740 That has no running water. 432 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,910 She has no domestic skills to feed herself or keep a place clean. 433 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,010 And you know, she was also lacking the social life that she was used to. 434 00:24:59,430 --> 00:25:03,690 There was hardly anyone around and Pancho much preferred the company of 435 00:25:03,690 --> 00:25:06,180 others, so this was not ideal for her. 436 00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:09,900 Now, eventually people did come and find her. 437 00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:14,520 She was rediscovered by aviation enthusiasts around 1970. 438 00:25:14,910 --> 00:25:19,650 Um, many of the folks who found her then thought that she had already died, but 439 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,480 in fact she was still alive and she was welcomed into their club meetings and 440 00:25:24,510 --> 00:25:27,030 they loved hearing her tell her stories. 441 00:25:27,405 --> 00:25:30,765 Despite everything, Pancho remained a real character all 442 00:25:30,765 --> 00:25:33,255 the way up until the end, right? 443 00:25:33,255 --> 00:25:34,905 Her stories were outrageous. 444 00:25:34,905 --> 00:25:36,645 She liked to shock people. 445 00:25:36,645 --> 00:25:42,075 She, you know, was just like the life of any room that she walked into, but 446 00:25:42,225 --> 00:25:47,605 eventually she died of a heart attack that maybe was due to complications 447 00:25:47,605 --> 00:25:54,235 from breast cancer in 1975, and she was not found for at least a week. 448 00:25:54,265 --> 00:25:56,395 Lauren: She moved into a little house eventually. 449 00:25:56,995 --> 00:26:00,745 That is the alpha and Omega of her life. 450 00:26:01,015 --> 00:26:05,485 When you think of the, the Pasadena mansion she was born into 451 00:26:06,175 --> 00:26:10,045 and the shack that she died in. 452 00:26:10,875 --> 00:26:13,725 Uh, that, that's a narrative arc for you. 453 00:26:14,055 --> 00:26:18,075 And in between that are all kinds of ups and downs. 454 00:26:18,075 --> 00:26:19,665 It's not a, it's not a pure arc. 455 00:26:19,935 --> 00:26:26,175 There's lots of, of valleys and peaks, many valleys and peaks 456 00:26:26,175 --> 00:26:29,595 in that life, but that's, that's the beginning and the end of it. 457 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,830 Matt: And the few friends that had helped her out in those last years of her life 458 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:39,560 did get permission to fly over and spread her ashes at the ruins of her old club. 459 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,080 Emily: You know, this kind of feels like a really sad ending to 460 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:47,535 a really big story, Matt, but I don't know if I think that it is, 461 00:26:47,595 --> 00:26:49,635 Matt: I mean, every story has to end right? 462 00:26:49,725 --> 00:26:50,865 Emily: Every story has to end. 463 00:26:50,865 --> 00:26:54,045 But I think she's got a really strong legacy and I think the story that 464 00:26:54,045 --> 00:26:57,495 we're telling is the reason that hopefully people can understand 465 00:26:57,885 --> 00:27:00,315 why she's still an enduring figure. 466 00:27:00,405 --> 00:27:02,445 Matt: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of legacy here. 467 00:27:02,445 --> 00:27:04,725 And you know, one of the things about. 468 00:27:04,915 --> 00:27:09,540 Pancho is that the way we've learned about her has been through sort of 469 00:27:09,540 --> 00:27:14,639 stories about test pilots who went to her bars or you know, through 470 00:27:14,639 --> 00:27:16,860 her inclusion in The Right Stuff. 471 00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:19,980 And also there's a Pancho's bar in Captain Marvel. 472 00:27:20,340 --> 00:27:24,505 But in those stories, she's kind of on the periphery of the main 473 00:27:24,505 --> 00:27:29,335 story, and she deserves to be the center of the story, right? 474 00:27:29,755 --> 00:27:31,915 Definitely the center of her own story. 475 00:27:32,635 --> 00:27:38,335 You know, it's very fitting that there's now a Pancho Barnes Day celebration on the 476 00:27:38,335 --> 00:27:41,125 site of the old Happy Bottom Riding Club. 477 00:27:41,455 --> 00:27:42,625 It's a barbecue. 478 00:27:42,685 --> 00:27:47,185 Began in the 1980s with, you know, drinking and dancing that goes 479 00:27:47,185 --> 00:27:48,805 on long into the night, right? 480 00:27:48,865 --> 00:27:53,750 The very fitting sort of tribute to this woman who herself would've. 481 00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:58,380 Drank and danced all through the night and then probably gone for a horseback ride. 482 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,990 Emily: Matt, we should put that on our bucket list along with the hot 483 00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:02,670 air balloons in um, New Mexico. 484 00:28:03,030 --> 00:28:07,230 But I do think that if you have any question about what cements her 485 00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:11,910 legacy, I think in addition to folks really continuing to celebrate. 486 00:28:12,170 --> 00:28:14,000 Her life, the way she lived her life. 487 00:28:14,330 --> 00:28:17,780 I think it's also really poignant to remember that there is now a room 488 00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:22,400 at the Officer's Club at Edwards Air Force Base that bears her name. 489 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,900 So even after all of that animosity and all of those challenges fighting over 490 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:32,150 her land with the Air Force, somebody at that Air Force base still acknowledges 491 00:28:32,150 --> 00:28:34,160 and recognizes her place in history. 492 00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:39,950 Matt: AirSpace is from the National Air and Space Museum. 493 00:28:40,285 --> 00:28:44,125 It's produced by Jennifer Weingart and mixed by Tarek Fouda, hosted 494 00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:46,075 by Dr. Emily Martin and me. 495 00:28:46,075 --> 00:28:47,375 Dr. Matt Shindell. 496 00:28:47,695 --> 00:28:49,975 Our managing producer is Erika Novak. 497 00:28:50,035 --> 00:28:53,785 Our production coordinator is Sofia Soto Sugar, and our social 498 00:28:53,785 --> 00:28:55,895 media manager is Amy Stamm. 499 00:28:56,275 --> 00:28:59,635 A big thank you to our guest in this episode, biographer Lauren Kessler. 500 00:29:00,590 --> 00:29:04,220 Her book, the Happy Bottom Riding Club: the Life and Times of Pancho 501 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,949 Barnes was invaluable for this episode. 502 00:29:07,459 --> 00:29:11,030 Also, the PBS documentary, the Legend of Pancho Barnes and 503 00:29:11,030 --> 00:29:12,439 the Happy Bottom Riding Club. 504 00:29:13,310 --> 00:29:16,220 Additional thanks to Dorothy Cochrane at the National Air and Space 505 00:29:16,220 --> 00:29:20,360 Museum for help with research and resources for additional content. 506 00:29:20,390 --> 00:29:25,550 Photos and more Follow AirSpace Pod on Instagram and X or sign 507 00:29:25,550 --> 00:29:28,700 up for our monthly newsletter using the link in the show notes. 508 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,560 AirSpace is sponsored by Lockheed Martin and distributed by PRX.