1 00:00:00,260 --> 00:00:01,760 Welcome to Wonder Cabinet. 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:04,880 I'm Anne Strangeamps. 3 00:00:05,100 --> 00:00:06,060 And I'm Steve Paulson. 4 00:00:06,540 --> 00:00:10,920 There's a saying that it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. 5 00:00:11,380 --> 00:00:14,720 After all, it's the only economic order you and I have ever known. 6 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,900 And we all know how destructive capitalism can be. 7 00:00:18,140 --> 00:00:23,720 Exploiting workers, clear-cutting forests, polluting entire ecosystems, all for profit. 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,240 And how much inequality is baked in. 9 00:00:26,740 --> 00:00:30,400 especially today when the top 1% of U.S. households 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,720 owns more than 30% of America's wealth 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,160 and the bottom 50% owns just 2.5%. 12 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:40,060 But does it have to be this way? 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,960 I remember when I was talking to the CEO 14 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,520 of one of the biggest banks in the world, 15 00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:46,800 and this must have been back in about 1990, 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:48,140 and he looked at me and said, 17 00:00:48,140 --> 00:00:50,360 Rebecca, you know, I became a banker 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,140 because I wanted to serve customers. 19 00:00:52,780 --> 00:00:54,400 I thought it was about getting money 20 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:55,500 to the people who needed it. 21 00:00:55,500 --> 00:01:00,140 I did not realize it was about accumulating personal wealth on a global scale. 22 00:01:00,820 --> 00:01:04,940 This is relatively new, and we don't have to run capitalism this way. 23 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,420 We really do not. 24 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:08,460 So what else could it look like? 25 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,620 This is Rebecca Henderson, a star professor at the Harvard Business School, 26 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,760 and she's consulted for some of the world's biggest corporations. 27 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:18,240 She served on the boards of major companies. 28 00:01:18,500 --> 00:01:23,780 She's also a climate activist, so she knows exactly how devastating global warming is going to be, 29 00:01:23,780 --> 00:01:28,880 And she's got a pretty realistic view of why business as usual has been so hard to change. 30 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:33,300 Which led her to write a book called Reimagining Capitalism in a World on Fire. 31 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:36,300 And I have to say, it made me question some of my basic assumptions. 32 00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:38,420 I don't know. I think we're a little different here. 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,140 I am skeptical about compassionate capitalism. 34 00:01:42,820 --> 00:01:45,560 I mean, that was a phrase that was popular 20 years ago. 35 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:49,540 And I don't think anybody would say it produced a more compassionate economy. 36 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:57,280 Plus, as we now know, the major oil companies systematically and knowingly tried to discredit climate science for decades. 37 00:01:57,780 --> 00:02:03,600 So I don't see corporate America being part of the solution, but I would love to be proved wrong. 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:12,720 Well, this is why I really wanted to hear the argument for why business may actually be the one viable system for helping us get through this environmental crisis. 39 00:02:13,060 --> 00:02:16,580 And I also really wanted to know what a reform to capitalism would look like. 40 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:18,600 And does it have anything to do with wonder? 41 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,220 because if there are two words I would not put together, they are capitalism and wonder. 42 00:02:23,780 --> 00:02:27,120 But there's a reason you wanted to talk with Rebecca for this podcast. 43 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,800 It really goes back to the first time I met Rebecca more than a year ago 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,040 when she told me about a personal crisis that she had fallen into. 45 00:02:35,380 --> 00:02:38,940 She'd been doing all of this work, sounding an alarm about the climate crisis 46 00:02:38,940 --> 00:02:42,280 and talking to lots of CEOs, but it wasn't going anywhere. 47 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,580 And she hit a wall, which led her into a lot of soul searching. 48 00:02:46,580 --> 00:02:50,560 and what she ended up doing is a really fascinating story, 49 00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:52,560 which has everything to do with wonder. 50 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,440 And that's what I wanted to talk about, 51 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,420 and we'll get into that later in the conversation. 52 00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:57,740 Okay, let's listen. 53 00:02:58,260 --> 00:03:01,340 One of the great questions of the age right now, I think, 54 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:04,260 is whether capitalism is inherently destructive 55 00:03:04,260 --> 00:03:06,680 or whether it can be a force for good. 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,920 And I know you have all kinds of criticisms about free market ideology, 57 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,560 but you also say business could help save the world. 58 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:16,440 Very provocative. 59 00:03:16,580 --> 00:03:21,920 statement. So, in a nutshell, I mean, we'll kind of unpack this, but what's the case for why 60 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:27,900 capitalism can be a force for good, maybe our salvation? So, I do believe capitalism can be a 61 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:33,940 force for good. I also believe there are many different kinds of capitalism, that the sort of 62 00:03:33,940 --> 00:03:42,680 red meat extractive capitalism we're living through now in the States is a dangerous menace. 63 00:03:43,420 --> 00:03:45,800 So I'm talking about a particular kind of capital. 64 00:03:45,820 --> 00:03:46,620 Let's pop it out for me. 65 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,520 I mean a capitalism imbalance. 66 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,520 I teach at the Harvard Business School, and I've been studying business all my life 67 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,300 because I think firms are important and free markets are important. 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,140 I don't want to live in a planned economy. 69 00:04:02,140 --> 00:04:08,620 I think large private organizations and small ones are an amazing way of getting things done. 70 00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:16,420 I think competition and the search for new ideas and new products and new ways of doing things is extraordinary. 71 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:21,220 So there are aspects of capitalism that I think are just fabulous. 72 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:37,520 And so when I think of a reimagined capitalism, I think of a world in which firms focus not on profit as the be-all and end-all of what they're doing, but as a means to an end. 73 00:04:38,260 --> 00:04:44,640 Producing great products, employing people that they trust and respect and treat with dignity, 74 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:51,860 and operating within the bounds of the law, which is what capitalism can do at its best. 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:59,160 Obviously, there are many people who say capitalism is inherently extractive, inherently exploitative, 76 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,660 especially when it comes to some of the big pressing issues of our time. 77 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,380 Climate change, the obvious example. 78 00:05:06,460 --> 00:05:07,320 How do you respond? 79 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,760 Well, firms are inherently extractive and exploitative if they are not controlled. 80 00:05:13,580 --> 00:05:16,260 It's like having a very powerful dog. 81 00:05:16,860 --> 00:05:21,020 And if you don't keep the dog on a lead, it's going to go anywhere and eat anything. 82 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:30,300 In this case, if you tell the managers of firms that all they need to care about is maximizing money in the short term, they will do dreadful things. 83 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,320 We only have to look at what's happening in private equity and health care, for examples. 84 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,160 or, in my own case, what privatizing the water system in England 85 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,920 has done to the rivers of Britain, flooded them with sewage. 86 00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:50,240 It's unregulated, uncontrolled capitalism that is the problem. 87 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,660 This is not a new idea. 88 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,180 I mean, the whole history of capitalism in Europe and the U.S. 89 00:05:57,180 --> 00:06:00,820 and in Japan and in Scandinavia has been about 90 00:06:00,820 --> 00:06:04,600 how do we get the good bits of the competitive market 91 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,540 and make sure that when we tell firms, make money, 92 00:06:09,060 --> 00:06:12,180 they don't hear at any cost and right now. 93 00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:16,380 So the key is ramping up the regulatory system? 94 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:21,500 Not only regulatory, but yes, the first tool is regulation and taxation. 95 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,780 The second tool is, this sounds so nebulous, 96 00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:28,580 but it's so important, changing the mindset. 97 00:06:29,380 --> 00:06:33,140 We used to have a world, and again, we've never had utopia. 98 00:06:33,780 --> 00:06:37,520 But if you go back to different communities, different times and places, 99 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,300 business people assumed that they needed to act morally. 100 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:47,960 The idea that, well, it would be hugely profitable just to pump the sewage directly into the river 101 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,160 and there doesn't seem to be anyone really stopping us doing that, so let's just do it, 102 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,720 in some communities and some times, that would have been an unthinkable thought. 103 00:06:57,180 --> 00:07:03,980 Just as now, it's not okay to say, well, let's employ small children because, hey, that would be really profitable. 104 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,760 You know, some things are out of bounds. 105 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,120 And one of the things that's happened, well, two big things have happened. 106 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,140 One, we've had a systematic assault on the regulatory state. 107 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:23,080 Over the years, we've had a very well-funded, heavily backed-by-business effort to destroy control of corporations. 108 00:07:23,340 --> 00:07:24,600 That's a huge problem. 109 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:37,700 But the other huge problem we've had is the development of a kind of moral regime, which says, you know, morals are all very well, but they're really for women and schoolteachers and for me when I'm at home. 110 00:07:38,140 --> 00:07:39,380 Business is for real. 111 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:42,960 You know, if it's not illegal, let's go ahead and do it. 112 00:07:43,020 --> 00:07:47,720 And if it is illegal, let's see if we can change the law. 113 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:59,360 So one of the reasons we've had trouble dealing with climate change is there's been a well-funded effort to ensure we don't have climate regulation and heavy investments in disinformation. 114 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:01,820 This is not intrinsic to capitalism. 115 00:08:02,420 --> 00:08:07,440 For a long time, I taught the required course in ethics and leadership at the business school, the Harvard Business School. 116 00:08:08,020 --> 00:08:12,520 And we would always have a session on political engagement by corporations. 117 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:24,620 And when I would explain the current American rules to foreign students, citizens united, unlimited money into politics, they'd look at me and go, but that's corruption. 118 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:31,860 I mean, the kinds of rules we have in the U.S. are unthinkable even now in many parts of the world. 119 00:08:31,860 --> 00:08:36,500 So let's take a concrete example of capitalism doing good things. 120 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:45,060 And you write about one case in Norway, a CEO who took a company, I think it was what the country's biggest waste disposal company. 121 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:46,440 Will you explain what happened there? 122 00:08:46,780 --> 00:08:49,640 The company in question was a company called Norsk Genvinning. 123 00:08:50,260 --> 00:08:53,260 And the hero of my story is a man called Erik Osmundsson. 124 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,020 He was in private equity. 125 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,880 And he ran across this company because the firm he was working for bought it. 126 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,500 and he was in charge of doing due diligence and trying to find a CEO 127 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:09,340 and he was learning all about this company, which was a mess 128 00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:12,280 and was bleeding money and really in trouble. 129 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,520 But, you know, that's an opportunity sometimes for good management. 130 00:09:15,020 --> 00:09:16,880 He came home to his wife and he said, you know, 131 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,840 I'm bored of just making money and pushing the numbers around. 132 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,440 I think I could do this job and I'm going to put my name in. 133 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,760 And so he became the CEO. 134 00:09:26,740 --> 00:09:39,700 And the first thing he found out, like, the second week on the job, because he started riding along with all the employees, is that the whole industry, this was a firm in the waste management industry, the whole industry was deeply corrupt. 135 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:46,260 People were throwing hazardous waste into holes in the ground or shipping it overseas, mislabeled. 136 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,680 They were literally pumping toxic chemicals into the fjord off Oslo. 137 00:09:51,940 --> 00:09:53,260 And it was the whole industry. 138 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:59,140 It's also cheaper to send your hazardous wastes to Asia, for instance. 139 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,060 I mean, you could make a lot more money for your corporation doing that. 140 00:10:02,140 --> 00:10:04,100 Absolutely, rather than treating the waste. 141 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,160 Much easier to pump it into the field rather than treat it properly. 142 00:10:07,580 --> 00:10:11,140 So it's a classic example of under-regulated extractive capitalism 143 00:10:11,140 --> 00:10:14,720 and bad morals across the whole industry. 144 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,800 Because what happens with the bad morals and what happened to Eric 145 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,080 is he went to his people and said, well, this is a bad idea. 146 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:22,040 And said, well, this is what everybody does. 147 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:28,840 it's not that bad, don't get all upset, you know, it's fine. He said, it is not fine. And we are 148 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,120 going to make money by changing it and being the first firm to change it. I mean, he's an 149 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,320 extraordinary person. And he'd be the first person to say, well, it wasn't just me. I had an incredible 150 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:44,140 team. But let me say, he fired half of the senior management and systematically started to clean up 151 00:10:44,140 --> 00:10:48,840 the firm. But to follow up on this, so it sounds like this is going to be a lot more expensive to 152 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,460 do this? I mean, to do it the right way. Well, that's where I'm going. Okay. So it's going to 153 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:58,200 be a lot more expensive. So what do you do? You start putting pressure on your competitors. How 154 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,980 do you do that? You tell your customers that the industry is corrupt and that they face regulatory 155 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:08,360 risk. You go to the regulators and you tell them what is really happening and you ask for better 156 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:14,760 regulation. And the third thing you do is you turn to your workforce and say, we're going to run this 157 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,760 firm properly? Do you want to be part of something that is part of the future, that could make a 158 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:25,080 real difference in the structure of the world? Because properly running waste management could 159 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:31,100 have a huge impact, not only on climate change by reducing global emissions, but also because 160 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:36,000 if you think of the waste stream as a source of materials, rather than just something you throw 161 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,720 into a hole, it reduces mining, it reduces extraction. It's huge. So you said to the 162 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:47,080 employees, are you in? Do you want to do this? A bunch left. But what happened, and I've seen this 163 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:54,860 again and again, and my own belief is the research on this is really very cast iron, is when you tell 164 00:11:54,860 --> 00:11:59,960 people they are working for something more than just a paycheck. Everybody needs a paycheck. 165 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,740 Every firm needs profits to survive. But the paycheck and the profits are not the goal. 166 00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:11,500 The goal is joy and growth and connection. And when you start building a firm where the people 167 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:16,760 who work for you can see that's what you're really about. And everyone could see Eric was for real. 168 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,160 He was getting death threats. He had to get police guards for his children. Death threats from whom? 169 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:27,580 Oh, from the people who were benefiting from the corruption. They wanted him to be quiet. 170 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,360 They threatened him and his family. This is not just, oh, let's be nice here. 171 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:37,400 This is, you know, you're dealing with some real stuff here. I mean, in many countries, 172 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,460 the waste businesses run by the local mob, the local version of the mob. 173 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,400 No, I mean, he had to have guards for his kids. 174 00:12:45,540 --> 00:12:47,540 There were times when he and his wife were like, 175 00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:49,740 oh, my God, what have we gotten ourselves into? 176 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,800 But what that is is a very credible signal that you believe what you're saying. 177 00:12:56,460 --> 00:12:59,660 And when people see that, not everyone, 178 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,460 and, of course, the people who don't care will leave, 179 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:05,100 but you will attract people who work for love, 180 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:07,960 who work for meaning, who work for purpose. 181 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:11,860 I mean, just to reiterate this point, you're saying you can work for love, 182 00:13:11,940 --> 00:13:14,600 you can work for purpose, and you can make money doing that. 183 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:15,660 Oh, well, yes. 184 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,900 So let me give you my favorite statistic, which is in the average industry, 185 00:13:21,460 --> 00:13:25,860 the 10% most productive firms are about twice as productive 186 00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:29,380 as the 10% least productive firms. 187 00:13:29,380 --> 00:13:34,400 That means the top 10% are taking the same inputs 188 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:41,300 and making twice as much output with the same stuff as the bottom 10%. 189 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:45,920 Now, when that result first emerged in the literature, which is about 25 years ago, 190 00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:47,980 I was part of the crowd. 191 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,620 I was sitting in the rooms where we were reading the papers and talking about it. 192 00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:53,740 None of us believed it. 193 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,440 I mean, I spent 10 years of my life in windowless conference rooms 194 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,000 helping to make it, trying to make it go away. 195 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,940 We thought, well, it must be mismeasurement. 196 00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:04,160 It must be they're really different inputs. 197 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,420 Or maybe the workforce is more skilled. 198 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:10,880 Those are all real effects, but they turn out to be very small. 199 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:18,840 The real effect is if you can run your workforce with so-called high-performance work practices, 200 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,260 nothing magic, high levels of communication, distributing power, 201 00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:28,740 trusting people to make the right decisions, treating people with dignity and respect, 202 00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:32,160 promoting the people who do good work, not because they kiss up, 203 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,200 you can double the performance of the firm. 204 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:37,700 Wow, that's so inspiring. 205 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,040 I mean, it just gives me hope. 206 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,380 Well, it's true. 207 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,940 Now, to your point about making money, 208 00:14:42,940 --> 00:14:48,340 I am not telling you that you will make more money than your competition 209 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:51,220 because doing the right thing is expensive. 210 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,140 Really transforming a firm in the way that Eric did, 211 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,900 putting purpose at the heart, transforming the entire industry, 212 00:14:57,180 --> 00:15:00,660 which he went on to do, that's expensive, at least in the short term. 213 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:01,620 Not now. 214 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:03,040 Now he's got it up and running. 215 00:15:03,460 --> 00:15:08,180 He's the largest waste company in Norway and spreading all over Europe. 216 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:09,880 It's a great success story. 217 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,740 So I'm wondering, I mean, it's a wonderful story, obviously, Eric in Norway. 218 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,600 How rare is he? 219 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:17,900 So that's a great question. 220 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,880 In the sweep of history, he's not rare at all. 221 00:15:21,740 --> 00:15:28,740 I think, for example, in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, most firms in the U.S. and Europe were run this way. 222 00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:36,300 There was a tighter regulatory regime, and so it was less tempting to be corrupt and extractive. 223 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,980 That's one of the things. The morals and the regulation go hand in hand. 224 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,860 That's why Eric tried to improve the regulation to, like, shift the whole industry. 225 00:15:45,380 --> 00:15:47,200 I think most firms will run that way. 226 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,760 I mean, I worked in tech for a long time, teaching technology strategy at MIT. 227 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,360 The big tech firms, they were founded by people who were in love with their products, 228 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,520 who thought computers would change the world. 229 00:15:59,060 --> 00:16:02,120 The money was a byproduct, a necessary condition. 230 00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:04,220 And now we idolize the billionaires. 231 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,540 This is all relatively new. 232 00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:09,360 Well, it's cyclical, right? 233 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,880 If we look back, what happened in the 19th century, 234 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,020 one of the things that drove the Great Depression 235 00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:18,340 was the kind of massive acceleration in inequality we're seeing now, 236 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,880 the valorization of money at any cost. 237 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,640 And when it's money at any cost, increasingly, 238 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:31,480 If I promise my investors a 20% rate of return, what I have to do to get that 20% gets iffier and iffier. 239 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,100 That's what gets the sewage pumped into the water. 240 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:35,980 This is relatively new. 241 00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:38,640 And we don't have to run capitalism this way. 242 00:16:38,740 --> 00:16:40,100 We really do not. 243 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:41,640 Okay, this is fascinating. 244 00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:43,780 And we're going to come back to this. 245 00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:46,740 And we could spend three hours, obviously, talking about everything. 246 00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:49,840 Well, because I'd love to talk about the details and how you really do it. 247 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:51,920 And now I want to talk about you. 248 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,920 So by any standard, you have been incredibly successful. 249 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:08,280 I mean, you are one of, what, 25 university professors at Harvard, you know, the highest rank designation you can have of any professor there. 250 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,500 You have consulted for multibillion-dollar corporations. 251 00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:14,220 You've written books. 252 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,780 I mean, you have it all. 253 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:22,780 And yet I know, because we had a conversation some months ago, that something went sour for you. 254 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,180 You hit a wall, right? Like a few years ago? 255 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:30,400 It is. And, you know, everyone has a different kind of wall. 256 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,880 But something really happened in my life, and I took two years off. 257 00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:39,480 So I was teaching a course based on these ideas at the business school. 258 00:17:39,660 --> 00:17:43,160 It was called Reimagining Capitalism, Business and the Big Problems. 259 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,460 And it was a huge success. 260 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,160 Fastest-growing elective at Harvard Business School in the last 10 years, something like that. 261 00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:50,700 And I wrote a book. 262 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,900 And the book was called, you know, Reimagining Capitalism in a World on Fire. 263 00:17:55,460 --> 00:18:04,200 And it was published in April of 2020, which was, for those who have forgotten, right at the beginning of the pandemic. 264 00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:05,120 Right, right. 265 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,100 And we were all at home. 266 00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:09,580 And I thought, well, my book is going to disappear without a trace. 267 00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:11,740 But everybody was home. 268 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,260 Everybody wanted to hear about reimagining capitalism in a world on fire. 269 00:18:16,380 --> 00:18:19,200 So in my small world, the book was quite a big hit. 270 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:20,820 It went into seven languages. 271 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,240 I ended up giving, oh, hundreds of talks to thousands of people. 272 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:34,400 And what happened is it became quite clear to me that they weren't going to do anything. 273 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:37,400 They, the business people I was talking to. 274 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,760 So I'm talking to senior teams at very large multinational corporations. 275 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,260 I'm talking to gatherings of senior business people all across the world. 276 00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:49,180 And what would happen is you could see them in the Zoom. 277 00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:53,240 They look at me and they go, very interesting, Professor Henderson. 278 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:54,820 Very, very interesting. 279 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,420 Why were they even there? 280 00:18:56,460 --> 00:18:57,920 Why were they listening to your talks? 281 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,140 Oh, because, and this is what it took me a while to work out, it made them feel better. 282 00:19:03,660 --> 00:19:07,200 It made them feel better to think that business could save the world. 283 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:13,700 that there was a way out. But the idea that actually on Monday morning I should go and do 284 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:20,380 what Eric did, well, you know, I'm busy. I've got lots going on. It became clear to me, 285 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,440 and I knew this before, but business people are caught in a web. It is a web of short-term 286 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:33,600 expectations, low regulation, and a social circle where not making as much money as possible at any 287 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,980 cost is like not okay. I mean, don't get me wrong. Of course, there were a few business people who 288 00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:46,140 took fire. But I had naively, narcissistically, lunatically thought that, you know, well, 289 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,380 here's the book. It lays out the process. It shows you you can make money. Five easy steps to changing 290 00:19:51,380 --> 00:19:56,420 the world. Everyone would go, oh, yeah, let's just do it. You know, and I had a consulting firm lined 291 00:19:56,420 --> 00:20:03,360 up to help. And no, it just wasn't going to happen. It was too hard. And I got very depressed. 292 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:09,820 because, you know, the work I do means I'm very current with modern climate science. 293 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,360 I know what's happening across the world, and I got very depressed. 294 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:17,020 Can you tell me more about that? 295 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:19,620 When you say you got very depressed, what do you mean? 296 00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:20,080 What happened? 297 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:26,380 Well, 25 years ago when I started this work, I thought, this isn't that hard. 298 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,060 It's 2% or 3% of GDP. 299 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,640 We can make money on a lot of it. 300 00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:33,160 We can build a decarbonized world. 301 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:38,300 It will be cleaner. It will be richer. It won't be burning. Of course, people will do that. No 302 00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:44,780 brainer. And I think lots of us in climate thought that. And what happened is it became clear to me 303 00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:53,960 that the whole way we structure our lives, our firms, our politics, how we think about who we 304 00:20:53,960 --> 00:21:02,780 are and what matters, our focus on ourselves, on our own well-being at almost any cost. And when I 305 00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:10,660 say we, I mean the educated classes in the global north. In the global south, and people at the 306 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:15,280 edge, they know what's happening. They've known it for a long time. I'm talking about the people 307 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,420 living in the beautiful manicured houses in suburbia like me. So I want to tell you, if you're 308 00:21:20,420 --> 00:21:25,480 willing to go here, I want to take you back to that. You said for two years, you basically dropped 309 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:31,040 out. You know, it hits everyone differently. I would go out into the garden, and I would look 310 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:39,460 at the trees and I would go, you're all going to burn. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. We really 311 00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:47,580 screwed up and we've been too greedy and we're too comfortable and we're not going to change 312 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:54,840 and I'm really sorry. And, you know, I have friends who live in the Philippines or in 313 00:21:54,840 --> 00:22:04,540 Bangladesh, it's real there, right? It's going to feel as if we're living in a war zone. It's going 314 00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:12,300 to feel as it has been feeling for many people, not in the global north for many years. I could 315 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:21,100 feel the waves of suffering. So this is, I mean, a really dire scenario that you're painting and 316 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:26,180 And you have not backed off from that, but you somehow got to another side here. 317 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Well, firstly, it was my husband. 318 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,680 He said, you need to take two years off. 319 00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:31,920 And I started to go on retreat. 320 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,080 I'd always been the Buddhist equivalent of a Christmas Christian, you know, someone 321 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,440 who kind of reads the occasional book and does the occasional meditation. 322 00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:40,960 But I started doing a week of meditation a month. 323 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,820 I needed to find a way to hold all that was happening and not shut down. 324 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,520 I need to be able to look at what was coming and function. 325 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,840 And there are many ways to do that. 326 00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:55,880 But for me, that was meditation. 327 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,120 And I will say, I mean, I remember my first retreat so well. 328 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,200 It was a 10-day retreat. 329 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,420 It was amazing. 330 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:10,700 And at the end of it, I stood up and I thought, I said to myself, amazing technology. 331 00:23:11,740 --> 00:23:13,020 Impossible to scale. 332 00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:16,620 A technology that goes back 2,500 years. 333 00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:17,900 Yeah, it goes back 2,500 years. 334 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:18,940 It's a technology. 335 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:24,560 I mean, this is what I love about Buddhism is my understanding, at least, is no required existential beliefs. 336 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,040 You know, when the Buddha was asked, is there a second life or something, he said it's a completely useless question. 337 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:30,860 That's not the question. 338 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:33,100 The question is reducing suffering now. 339 00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:36,120 And I have tools and techniques to help you to do that. 340 00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:40,860 And he was absolutely right, at least in my case, that techniques are fabulous. 341 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:47,100 not for everyone but for some people and certainly for me so helpful and they've really worked 342 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:52,520 why did that i mean i can understand at a personal level you know you were feeling 343 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,220 hopeless i think is is probably the right word about you know you were giving all of these 344 00:23:57,220 --> 00:24:02,580 talks and it didn't seem like it was making any difference and so it's sort of somehow these kinds 345 00:24:02,580 --> 00:24:08,560 of meditation retreats this contemplative practice give you some sense of equanimity i guess 346 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,960 it doesn't seem like that would necessarily deal with this larger sense of futility. 347 00:24:14,140 --> 00:24:16,060 Oh, well, here's the thing. 348 00:24:16,060 --> 00:24:21,380 I went on a retreat in the first place because we can change the world. 349 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,560 We have the technology and the resources. 350 00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:26,580 We just don't want to. 351 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,640 We need to want to. 352 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:35,480 And where is the technology in our civilization that has been holding for thousands of years 353 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,580 the idea that humans should focus on the long term 354 00:24:38,580 --> 00:24:39,940 and care about each other. 355 00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:41,460 It's the great faiths. 356 00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:44,240 The great faiths have always been, 357 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:46,260 and of course there's all kinds of problems with them. 358 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,460 I hold no brief, you know, institutionalized religion 359 00:24:49,460 --> 00:24:50,480 and some of what's happened. 360 00:24:50,860 --> 00:24:52,980 But at the core of all the great faiths 361 00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:56,760 is the idea that there is more than status, money, and power. 362 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,940 That just focusing on yourself is a disaster. 363 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:02,800 That the way to create thriving society 364 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,200 is through, excuse me, love and compassion. 365 00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:09,720 That's not a revolutionary idea to the human race. 366 00:25:10,140 --> 00:25:12,980 There have been societies built entirely around those ideas. 367 00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:18,480 And so I went on retreat because I thought it is the only way through. 368 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:24,200 We have to find a way to help people understand that this is a dead end, 369 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,520 that the only way through is to focus on the long term and each other. 370 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:36,280 the only way through is to rediscover those capacities for a deep relationship with yourself 371 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:41,000 I mean we just have to look at the billionaires right now to see that you know they don't appear 372 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:47,300 to be very happy at all you know total focus on yourself deeply unskillful that we need to 373 00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:52,600 rebuild relationships with ourselves with each other and with the natural world and if we could 374 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:59,540 do that. You know, the politics, the economics, we know what to do. I mean, I have a book that 375 00:25:59,540 --> 00:26:04,060 says here's what to do in business. There are many others. I have friends who know exactly what to do 376 00:26:04,060 --> 00:26:10,980 in economics, in housing, in inequality, in taxation policy. I mean, that's not the issue. 377 00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:17,780 The issue is not getting the right policies. The issue is wanting the right policies. The issue 378 00:26:17,780 --> 00:26:26,580 is moving away from the fear and hatred and tension that is created by this extractive 379 00:26:26,580 --> 00:26:34,680 capitalism. I mean, how do the rich stay in power? By pitting poor white people against poor black 380 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:40,400 people. That's what's happening. But I say, you know, you got a better plan, you go do the better 381 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:47,540 plan. Here's what I'm trying. What I'm trying is we need a spiritual revolution. And I don't mean 382 00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:53,100 the whole world is going to sing Kumbaya. I mean, we need to learn to wake up to these basic truths 383 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:59,120 of what makes us happy, of the world we want for our children. And that will mean, 384 00:26:59,740 --> 00:27:05,920 and everybody is different, but it will mean getting in touch with our inner core. 385 00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:11,780 Can I just say, I mean, to hear you, you know, this, you know, renowned professor at Harvard 386 00:27:11,780 --> 00:27:15,380 Business School saying we need a spiritual revolution. That's the thing that's going to 387 00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:21,800 save us, that's going to, you know, help us navigate this next period of our history, you know, 388 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,140 dealing with this major problem. I mean, that is just, that's kind of amazing, actually, to hear 389 00:27:26,140 --> 00:27:31,440 you say that. But it's so distressing that it's amazing. Because what I mean by spiritual, it's 390 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,760 not spirits and woo-woo and all that stuff. I mean, thinking about the purpose of life. I mean, 391 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:44,320 thinking about what we really value. I mean, really being engaged in this world full on 392 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:50,960 for good. That's what I mean. Okay, hold that thought for a moment while we take a short break. 393 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,300 And when we come back, we'll hear how Rebecca took these personal discoveries back into the classroom. 394 00:27:56,900 --> 00:28:00,220 Hi, it's Anne. I am so glad you're joining us. 395 00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:05,100 We have some amazing guests lined up for the weeks ahead, and I'm really excited about them. 396 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:11,060 And here's a tip. Maybe you know this already, but if you follow Wonder Cabinet on Apple Podcasts, 397 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:16,700 those new episodes will show up automatically, like a little weekly gift in your podcast feed. 398 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:18,000 I hope you like it. 399 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:27,820 This is Wonder Cabinet. I'm Steve Paulson. My guest is Rebecca Henderson, the author of 400 00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:32,660 Reimagining Capitalism in a World on Fire. And she was just saying what we really need 401 00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:39,140 is a spiritual revolution. What did you do with this? I mean, you said you took two years off 402 00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:42,440 from teaching, then you went back to Harvard Business School. 403 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,740 So I took two years off for teaching and read and read and read and talked and met all these 404 00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:51,380 cool people that I would never have met otherwise. And I came back and I said to the dean, 405 00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:59,660 I want to teach a course on really a spiritual revolution? Like what? And I want to teach it 406 00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:04,540 to students from right across Harvard, not just business school, because this is not just a 407 00:29:04,540 --> 00:29:12,800 business issue. And so now I teach a course, 75 people asking this question. What does it mean 408 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:22,040 to turn in. And then, if you turn in, what's next? So I want to talk to you a little bit more about 409 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:27,920 this class. So I've read your syllabus, so it's called Reweaving Ourselves, and you have a fabulous 410 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,980 reading list, I have to say. Thank you. I know a lot of the people who you assign. Everyone from 411 00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:39,400 the science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson to the indigenous plant biologist Robin Wall 412 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,140 Kimmerer to, I love this, the risk report of the World Economic Forum. 413 00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:44,700 Of course. 414 00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:46,400 Sort of putting it all together. 415 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,760 What do these readings have in common? 416 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:56,600 Oh, so the intellectual project here is threefold, or maybe manyfold, you know. 417 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,140 One is, what does it mean for humans to behave in a different way? 418 00:30:03,940 --> 00:30:05,500 What do we know about that historically? 419 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,400 What do we know about the tools and techniques? 420 00:30:08,260 --> 00:30:14,140 And what do we know about how that's been enacted in ordinary life? 421 00:30:14,780 --> 00:30:16,500 What does that look like politically? 422 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,360 What does that look like if you're building a firm? 423 00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:23,960 What does it look like if you're an economist or designing an accounting system? 424 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:34,880 And so the project is a deliberate attempt to not turn our back on what one might call modernism or current civilization, 425 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,560 which has many, many strengths. 426 00:30:37,980 --> 00:30:40,520 I don't want to go back to an era before penicillin. 427 00:30:40,820 --> 00:30:42,920 I've already said I don't want to live in a planned economy 428 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,440 where someone makes all my choices. 429 00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:47,800 There are all kinds of things that we need to celebrate 430 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,920 and build on in the existing way of doing things, 431 00:30:51,340 --> 00:30:54,960 but we need to do it from a, use them from a different place. 432 00:30:55,740 --> 00:30:57,440 What does it look like to run a firm this way? 433 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:58,680 Oh, you can run a firm this way. 434 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:01,240 What does it look like to run a city this way? 435 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,780 What would it look like to run a society this way? 436 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:09,780 And then, what do we know about those moments in human history 437 00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:14,440 where there has been something like a spiritual or cultural revolution? 438 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,160 Do you have an example of that, historically, sort of one of these turning points? 439 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,800 So, you know, there are many. 440 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,520 And again, one can't expect that, oh, and on the other side was utopia. 441 00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:26,980 Sure. 442 00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:29,220 But let me point to a couple. 443 00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:32,060 Firstly, just a very small one. 444 00:31:32,780 --> 00:31:37,220 It happened in Mauritius in 1968, which is an island in the Pacific. 445 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,340 Mauritius was a slave plantation, mostly slave plantations. 446 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,740 And at the time, it had like eight or ten official languages. 447 00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:51,360 French aristocracy who owned the sugar plantations 448 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,200 and mostly the descendants of black slaves who worked the plantations, 449 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,800 but also Chinese and African. 450 00:31:57,980 --> 00:31:58,760 I mean, it was huge. 451 00:31:59,340 --> 00:32:00,560 And the British left. 452 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,900 and said, OK, it's up to you now. 453 00:32:03,980 --> 00:32:04,660 You rule the island. 454 00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:07,120 And there were two political parties, 455 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,960 one the Landowners Party and one a popular party. 456 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:13,820 Right before the elections, there were serious riots. 457 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,360 It looked like the whole society might break down. 458 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,960 And there were all kinds of possible reactions. 459 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,480 But what happened is the leader of the Populist Party 460 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,720 reached out to the leader of the Landowner Party and said, 461 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:35,720 what would happen if we ran Mauritius as if the most important thing was creating good jobs and 462 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:43,060 decent living standards rather than growing the GDP and making ourselves rich? And they did. 463 00:32:43,460 --> 00:32:44,600 They worked together. 464 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,580 They worked together. And Mauritius is not paradise, but it scores very highly on all 465 00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:56,100 measures of well-being, and they did it. And let me give you another example, which is so close to 466 00:32:56,100 --> 00:33:01,880 home we forget, but I think it's worth thinking about, which is the ruins of Europe after World 467 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:10,180 War II. There's a very famous intellectual called Stefan Schweig who killed himself in 1943. He was 468 00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:18,680 Jewish and he thought, this is hell and there is no way out. The idea that World War II would lead 469 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,900 to the kinds of societies that the Europeans built, healthcare for everyone, education for 470 00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:30,540 everyone, prosperity for everyone, that that would be possible, that they would do that, 471 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:36,700 was almost unthinkable in 43 or 44. You know, it's so interesting to hear you use that example, 472 00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:41,920 because I've thought about that myself in terms of like, right now, in this new Trump administration, 473 00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:47,840 it seems impossible to see the other side. It seems impossible. And it seems impossible to, 474 00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:52,760 I mean, like, where are the leaders that we need? Exactly. You can't see the leaders, you can't see 475 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:59,140 it. And that's the other reason I talk about this example is, I hate to say this, I think things are 476 00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:06,000 going to get worse. And I think one of the reasons we need to turn inside and learn to reground and 477 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:12,940 learn to rebuild our communities, because we do a lot of work in the class on, okay, it's you. 478 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,840 Now you need a group of people to keep you honest. And we can call it different things. You could 479 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,640 call it a church or a sango or a reading group or a mentoring circle. I don't care what you call it. 480 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:30,180 But you need a group of people around you who are also trying to do the right thing to keep each other honest, to hold each other in bad times. 481 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,120 I mean, again, this is not news. 482 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,200 If you're a black American activist, you've been working this for hundreds of years. 483 00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:45,500 You know, situation impossible, you need to turn inside, and you need your friends, and you need the joy, and you need to be right here in the moment. 484 00:34:45,620 --> 00:34:49,240 But you also need some sense of hope. 485 00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:51,800 So I want to ask how you do that. 486 00:34:51,800 --> 00:35:12,000 So I was fascinated reading, again, your syllabus for this course, Reweaving Ourselves, where you talk about, I mean, not only is there this great reading list, but also you talk about the experiential component of your class, things like the value of holding grief or deep listening and somehow doing that in the class. 487 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,920 And I want to know how you do that. 488 00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:17,620 I mean, how you sort of, what do you do when you bring these people together? 489 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:19,240 Probably most of them don't know each other. 490 00:35:19,340 --> 00:35:23,280 And you're basically asking them to expose themselves, to be vulnerable. 491 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:33,360 Well, we know a lot about how to help people be vulnerable, how to help people connect, how to help people go, oh, there's another way to do life. 492 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,160 You begin with deep listening. 493 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,460 You know, it's amazing how many people are never really listened to. 494 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:40,940 What do you mean by deep listening? 495 00:35:40,940 --> 00:35:52,660 So, Steve, suppose that I said to you, okay, tell me about a place you really love and why you love it and why you're afraid for it, given all that's happening. 496 00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:58,020 And I'm going to sit here for five minutes and I'm going to listen really carefully. 497 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:05,100 I am not going to talk about, I'm not going to even think about what I'm going to say next or what I can do to show you that I'm smart. 498 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:06,960 I'm just going to listen to you. 499 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,640 And I'm going to hold everything you say in confidence. 500 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,160 and I'm not going to give you advice. 501 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,520 Just five minutes. 502 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,360 People cry, really, 503 00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:22,200 because we're not in the habit of doing it. 504 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:25,920 We're not in the habit of really listening to each other. 505 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,220 It's the most simple exercise 506 00:36:28,220 --> 00:36:31,160 and it's the one I come back to again and again. 507 00:36:31,380 --> 00:36:32,740 And they get to know each other. 508 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,320 It's a cross-university group 509 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,020 and we could talk more about that 510 00:36:36,020 --> 00:36:37,260 because all kinds of things happen 511 00:36:37,260 --> 00:36:38,760 when you put divinity school students 512 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,300 and law students and history students and business school students in the same room. 513 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,860 And it sounds like we're also not just talking about 18 to 22-year-olds here. 514 00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:47,980 No, no, no. 515 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,540 These are all graduate professionals. 516 00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:50,120 Okay. 517 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:51,640 So these are 27, 28. 518 00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:54,400 And they're climate activists. 519 00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:56,380 This is a climate cause. 520 00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:58,060 You're pretty explicit about that. 521 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,020 I mean, we're not going to be debating whether climate change is real. 522 00:37:01,020 --> 00:37:04,260 I mean, you agree with that premise, and we're starting from there. 523 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,960 And you think it's hopeless, and I'm tempted to think it's hopeless. 524 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,240 And we're going to talk about, is this a path? 525 00:37:09,340 --> 00:37:10,140 Is there a way through? 526 00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:11,640 That's the goal of the course. 527 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,020 Is there a way through? 528 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:19,920 And the reason I do the experiential stuff, so the deep listening, we close every class reading a poem in circle together. 529 00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:22,300 Everyone reads a line of the poem. 530 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,240 We go around the circle. 531 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:30,240 We do social presencing theater, which is when you express what you're feeling through your body, not through words. 532 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:45,980 You know, all of them are ways of, instead of being in your, like, chattering, thinking, how smart I am mind, which all the students are superb at, these are all Harvard students, it's getting you into your body and your heart. 533 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:47,740 It's getting you embodied. 534 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,300 How do you feel? 535 00:37:50,260 --> 00:37:58,300 So many of us, you know, we pampered, privileged, educated, small segment of the global north, we're in our heads. 536 00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:02,820 Like our bodies are sticks and the head are just machines for walking our heads around. 537 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,480 And when you get into your body and you allow yourself to think about what's happening 538 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,260 and how you feel, I mean, a lot of stuff comes up. 539 00:38:12,580 --> 00:38:19,160 But if you're with a group that you can see the caring and the reflection and the holding, 540 00:38:19,820 --> 00:38:25,820 and then we try and give people the long-term tools to hold it and move with it as they 541 00:38:25,820 --> 00:38:32,080 go out into the world. Amazing stuff happens. What are you hoping happens once they go out 542 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:38,740 into the world? This is a difficult moment we're in, right? It's super difficult. We talk a lot 543 00:38:38,740 --> 00:38:44,240 about alternative theories of change and what you can do with your life. And we talk about, 544 00:38:44,660 --> 00:38:50,500 you know, do you try and change the existing infrastructure? So one student from the class 545 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:55,240 went to work for one of the Federal Reserve Banks because he thought fiscal and financial 546 00:38:55,240 --> 00:39:00,400 policy was really important. And he's pulled together a group at that bank and he's, you know, 547 00:39:00,460 --> 00:39:07,620 trying to think about what they can do that might be helpful. Or you can go completely the other way 548 00:39:07,620 --> 00:39:13,660 and start a cooperative farm and try and build strong local community out somewhere in the 549 00:39:13,660 --> 00:39:18,820 country and really model what a different way of living might look like. Or you can start a 550 00:39:18,820 --> 00:39:25,360 small firm or go into media. But it also sounds like you are finding and sometimes creating 551 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,320 groups of people that are to some degree like-minded, or maybe you bring them along 552 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:36,080 to make change, to make real change. And, you know, there are, of course, lots of examples of 553 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:42,360 this. I mean, you know, people, small groups, nonprofits, institutes doing wonderful things. 554 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,000 Everywhere. There are thousands of them. It seems like the issue is how do you scale this up to 555 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,400 To actually make a difference in the larger society. 556 00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:51,900 And I think none of us know. 557 00:39:52,380 --> 00:39:55,160 I'm doing what I know how to do, which is teaching. 558 00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:01,760 One of the striking things, and I've been trying to track major social transformation, political upheaval across history, 559 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,860 is in nearly every case, and the Mauritius example is an example, 560 00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:13,460 things went well when there was a segment of the ruling elite that said, 561 00:40:13,460 --> 00:40:16,260 you know, things look really bad. 562 00:40:16,260 --> 00:40:20,580 but rather than doubling down on the secret police 563 00:40:20,580 --> 00:40:22,780 and putting the troops in the streets, 564 00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:25,020 why don't we try something different? 565 00:40:26,140 --> 00:40:28,240 Why don't we try the middle way? 566 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,680 Why don't we, like, see if we can really rebuild our democracy? 567 00:40:33,340 --> 00:40:34,000 Wouldn't that be better? 568 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,940 So it's a kind of dual-pronged strategy 569 00:40:36,940 --> 00:40:40,600 is try and reach the people who are in those rooms, 570 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:41,900 and we know their names, 571 00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:45,140 who might be open to having these conversations. 572 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,940 giving them the experiential practices and the peer group that could support. 573 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,120 It's super hard to do this on your own. 574 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,760 You need people around you who are encouraging and supporting, 575 00:40:56,340 --> 00:41:01,000 that can support that and create groups within that 0.01%. 576 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,900 Just as with the educational structure, 577 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,480 we're trying to build what's sometimes called these islands of coherence 578 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,780 where we're demonstrating that there's a different way to do things. 579 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,160 Well, I mean, another point that you're making, 580 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,860 I think I'm reading you correctly here, is that you want to work within existing institutions. 581 00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:24,720 You're not saying, you know, throw out the whole system and we're going to start from scratch and do it better. 582 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:25,300 I mean, no. 583 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:34,440 There are these existing institutions there, powerful institutions, governmental institutions, and we need to reform them or remake them, radicalize them maybe. 584 00:41:34,460 --> 00:41:34,600 Oh, yeah. 585 00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:36,720 So I'm an incrementalist, yes. 586 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,960 I think it's all about reform. 587 00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:46,920 But I have huge support and cheers for people who say, Rebecca, you've got to be kidding. 588 00:41:47,580 --> 00:41:48,840 I mean, we need to start over. 589 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,040 Reimagining capitalism, let's throw it out the window. 590 00:41:51,220 --> 00:41:53,380 To which I always answer, well, show me. 591 00:41:54,180 --> 00:41:54,580 Show me. 592 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:55,960 Show me the better system. 593 00:41:55,980 --> 00:41:58,480 All the historical examples I know, they didn't work. 594 00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,540 We need better capitalism. 595 00:41:59,540 --> 00:42:05,780 We need Japanese capitalism at its best or Scandinavian capitalism at its best or American capitalism at its best. 596 00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:07,560 We need to get back there. 597 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,360 I mean, it will be different. 598 00:42:09,820 --> 00:42:11,600 When we get back, it will be different. 599 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,520 You know, I spent 20 years studying innovation. 600 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:15,920 That was my early training. 601 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,480 And what I learned is if you're really going to transform an industry, 602 00:42:21,060 --> 00:42:25,780 you need people out there in the front trying new things, radical new ideas. 603 00:42:26,020 --> 00:42:30,000 But you also need to change the big institutions because they have the money and the power. 604 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,300 And it's that integration that you need. 605 00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:37,760 And the second thing I learned is no one knows what the future is going to look like. 606 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,680 So I think it's going to look like some version of transformed capitalism. 607 00:42:41,860 --> 00:42:47,700 I might well be wrong, but we need multiple experiments in different countries, in different institutions. 608 00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:50,780 And we need the out there experiments because they might be right. 609 00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:54,860 Things might get so bad that we need the out there stuff. 610 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,560 Where do you personally, coming back to your own story, where do you find sustenance? 611 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,560 I mean, you've already said meditation retreats, but what else? 612 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:05,380 I've always loved being outside. 613 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,080 That's why I became a climate activist. 614 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,680 But mostly what is new is, again, I can't do this all the time, 615 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,800 but I can be in a room and I can look at people 616 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,220 and I can see them shining. 617 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,000 All the striving and the suffering and the pushing and the shoving, 618 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,080 and I can see the beauty. 619 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,160 I can see the beauty. 620 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:39,620 There's a kind of phrase I say to myself, which I really believe is true, which I certainly didn't believe five years ago, which is we are all doing the best we can. 621 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,320 That's really true. 622 00:43:41,740 --> 00:43:43,980 It's true of the fossil fuel executives, too. 623 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,980 I have a friend who runs a major fossil fuel company. 624 00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:48,540 He's doing the best he can. 625 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:56,220 And I can see the amazing thing that is the human spirit. 626 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,300 And it's extraordinary. 627 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,740 And people say, well, what gives you hope? 628 00:44:01,740 --> 00:44:05,840 And we have no idea what's going to happen next. 629 00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:09,560 We have no idea what our species is capable of. 630 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,260 We know that when push comes to shove, humans have done some amazing things. 631 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,260 And push is going to come to shove. 632 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,220 But mostly it's about right now. 633 00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:21,820 Mostly it's about right now. 634 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:22,260 Yeah. 635 00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:26,920 So I could leave it there, but I have one final question 636 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,980 that's going to seem like it's going to come out of left field totally, 637 00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:34,600 but because you've been talking about the importance of doing inner work. 638 00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:38,780 So I've just recently started trying to pay more attention to my dreams, 639 00:44:39,180 --> 00:44:41,360 which I did this morning at 4 o'clock in the morning. 640 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,140 So I'm going to tell you sort of the end of this dream that I just had, 641 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:45,920 and I don't know what to make of it. 642 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:52,220 There was a person, I don't think me, who had a cell phone and made a call, 643 00:44:52,220 --> 00:45:00,460 and it rang in some other dimension some other time and someone else picked it up 644 00:45:00,460 --> 00:45:07,220 and was waiting for that call and sort of clearly this other person in the future is waiting for 645 00:45:07,220 --> 00:45:13,040 this call and then I woke up and I'm thinking you know maybe my unconscious knew that I was 646 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,520 about to talk with you and we're going to talk about the future and when things are sort of 647 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:23,280 really hopeless. And does that resonate with you in any way? Part of me is just thinking, well, 648 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,880 what does this mean for you? Believe me, I'm wondering that myself. Yeah. And maybe it's 649 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,640 just about me. No, no. But you know, we're all about everything. That's the thing. I love that 650 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:39,480 phrase. We are not a drop in the universe. We are the universe in a drop. I love that. One of the 651 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:48,540 exercises we do is called moral imagination. And moral imagination is all about putting yourself 652 00:45:48,540 --> 00:45:55,200 in the shoes of not only people in the future, but the insects and the birds and the trees 653 00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:06,480 and the children. Can we really extend ourselves beyond this narrow self, both now and into the 654 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:13,700 future, to feel the consequences of our actions, to we really understand what's happening and what 655 00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:20,540 we're doing. And so what comes up for me is there's someone in the future waiting for the call. 656 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:29,260 They want the call that says, I hear you. I'm moving. I take it seriously. I'll change my life. 657 00:46:29,260 --> 00:46:37,720 yeah and for me as i was thinking about this dream it's both the now trying to imagine 658 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:44,420 someone in the future and then that person in the future responding to some person people who are 659 00:46:44,420 --> 00:46:49,400 reaching out from the past it gave me hope and actually when i got up and was writing this down 660 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:55,060 it sort of i was tinkling all over about that anyway i just sort of i just thought because i 661 00:46:55,060 --> 00:47:01,880 knew that, you know, we were going to talk about difficult stuff and it can seem really hopeless 662 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,940 right now. And then how do we imagine something better? So it helps to have taught technology at 663 00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:13,340 MIT for 20 years. We really do have the technology and the resources to fix the problems we face. 664 00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:19,060 We have enough resources to give everyone on the planet a secure place to live, decent education 665 00:47:19,060 --> 00:47:23,060 and real health care. Even though we keep hearing that, you know, we've crossed another line in 666 00:47:23,060 --> 00:47:28,160 No, no, it's bad. There's going to be a lot of suffering. But there's a huge difference between 667 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:34,840 total collapse, which I actually think is quite unlikely, although possible, and taking what we 668 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:41,120 have and rebuilding. We could rebuild a much better society. I mean, I think it would be poorer. I 669 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:48,740 think there would be fewer cheetahs studied with gold and snow resorts in Saudi Arabia. But I think 670 00:47:48,740 --> 00:47:56,200 if we could build a world where we were partners with the natural world, where everyone had enough 671 00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:03,680 to eat, where everyone felt included and respected and there was work for all, that would be a very 672 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:10,900 beautiful world. And I think it's very possible. I do believe it. I mean, absolutely we could do it. 673 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,600 If we put the planet on a wall footing, I mean, just do the thought experiment, put it on a wall 674 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:20,940 footing with a unified goal, no child left behind. For me, that would be the way I would do it. 675 00:48:21,380 --> 00:48:26,980 No child, no place. We'll keep the beautiful places, and every child will have enough to eat, 676 00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:32,160 decent education, real health care, and a chance at a job. And you do it village by village, 677 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,280 city by city, country by country. It'd be completely different. 678 00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:40,280 Anyway, we're going to leave it there. So anyway, thank you so much. 679 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:41,700 Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. 680 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,900 That's Rebecca Henderson. 681 00:48:44,420 --> 00:48:46,320 She teaches at the Harvard Business School, 682 00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:50,020 and her book is called Reimagining Capitalism in a World on Fire. 683 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,720 Steve, I think her point about the moral teachings of the world's faith traditions 684 00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:56,480 is actually really interesting. 685 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,340 I know a lot has been written recently about the resurgence of interest 686 00:49:00,340 --> 00:49:04,440 in traditional religions like Catholicism, especially among young people. 687 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,920 So I think there really is a sense of spiritual longing 688 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,960 that is not just individual, but collective. 689 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,940 I know that's something we'll talk about in future episodes. 690 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,960 Wonder Cabinet comes to you from Madison, Wisconsin 691 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:18,260 and Versher, Vermont. 692 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,460 Our audio engineer is Steve Gotcher. 693 00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:22,780 Our digital producer is Mark Rickers. 694 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,020 I'm Anne Strangehamps. 695 00:49:24,300 --> 00:49:25,280 And I'm Steve Paulson. 696 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,700 If you haven't yet, sign up for our newsletter 697 00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:29,600 so you get updates about new episodes. 698 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,200 You'll find it at wondercabinetproductions.com. 699 00:49:33,380 --> 00:49:35,100 This is a brand new podcast, 700 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,300 and we could use your help spreading the word. 701 00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:39,800 Thanks for joining us. Until next week.