1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:01,840 Anne Strainchamps: Welcome to Wonder Cabinet. 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:05,600 Anne Strainchamps: I'm Anne Strainchamps. 3 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:06,860 Steve Paulson: And I'm Steve Paulson. 4 00:00:08,100 --> 00:00:10,960 Anne Strainchamps: Where do you go when you need a dose of wonder? 5 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,080 Steve Paulson: A way to lift your spirits, let go of the day's heaviness. 6 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:18,220 Anne Strainchamps: Well, the biggest frame of reference we have is the cosmos, 7 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,480 Anne Strainchamps: an entire universe of expanded horizons and limitless possibility. 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,840 Steve Paulson: Where time flows differently, space bends and curves, 9 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,320 Steve Paulson: and reality is so much more than what our senses tell us. 10 00:00:32,020 --> 00:00:34,160 Anne Strainchamps: Imagine you're a theoretical physicist. 11 00:00:34,660 --> 00:00:38,060 Anne Strainchamps: You spend your whole life on the edge of all that wonder. 12 00:00:38,580 --> 00:00:42,460 Anne Strainchamps: Every day you wake up and you do your best to understand it just a little bit better. 13 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,500 Anne Strainchamps: Maybe even discover something new. 14 00:00:46,180 --> 00:00:50,800 Anne Strainchamps: What was it like for you to see that first photograph of the black hole? 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:51,340 Anne Strainchamps: Do you remember? 16 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,820 Carlo Rovelli: Yes, it was an incredible emotion. 17 00:00:53,820 --> 00:00:58,600 Carlo Rovelli: It's like, you know, we've been studying an animal, mysterious all your life, 18 00:00:58,660 --> 00:00:59,360 Carlo Rovelli: and then you see it. 19 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:00,640 Carlo Rovelli: Well, it exists, it's real. 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:06,020 Steve Paulson: This is Carlo Rovelli, and he is one of the world's most celebrated physicists. 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,080 Steve Paulson: Author of a string of best-selling books, including 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,520 Steve Paulson: Seven Brief Lessons on Physics, Reality is Not What It Seems, and The Order of Time. 23 00:01:14,860 --> 00:01:18,040 Anne Strainchamps: We thought we would start this hour by playing this little story 24 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,820 Anne Strainchamps: that he told me a few years ago about one of his own favorite moments of wonder. 25 00:01:23,820 --> 00:01:28,360 Carlo Rovelli: The best experience has not been the picture of the black hole, 26 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:30,640 Carlo Rovelli: which is a few years ago, 27 00:01:31,460 --> 00:01:33,200 Carlo Rovelli: but a little bit before that, 28 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:36,580 Carlo Rovelli: there was the announcement of the detection of the gravitational waves 29 00:01:36,580 --> 00:01:39,260 Carlo Rovelli: that was produced by a black hole. 30 00:01:39,260 --> 00:01:44,620 Carlo Rovelli: Since there are so many black holes in the sky, 31 00:01:45,260 --> 00:01:47,060 Carlo Rovelli: they can meet and fall into one another. 32 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,200 Carlo Rovelli: They fall into one another, 33 00:01:49,580 --> 00:01:51,980 Carlo Rovelli: they start orbiting, turning around, 34 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,320 Carlo Rovelli: then orbiting faster and faster, getting closer and closer, 35 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:57,980 Carlo Rovelli: faster, faster, faster, faster, faster, closer, closer, closer, 36 00:01:58,100 --> 00:01:58,520 Carlo Rovelli: then whoop! 37 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:02,240 Carlo Rovelli: They just eat each other, so to say. 38 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,760 Carlo Rovelli: And if they do so, 39 00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:10,580 Carlo Rovelli: they produce this enormously strong oscillation of space, 40 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,820 Carlo Rovelli: which is what was detected. 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,640 Carlo Rovelli: The announcement of that was given publicly, 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,020 Carlo Rovelli: and the press conference was during a class 43 00:02:21,020 --> 00:02:25,240 Carlo Rovelli: I was giving to my students in Marseille on general relativity. 44 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,480 Carlo Rovelli: So I told the students, 45 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:30,320 Carlo Rovelli: look, there is this press conference, 46 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:31,740 Carlo Rovelli: they say they have gravitational waves, 47 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,300 Carlo Rovelli: they have not seen what they have seen, 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:35,280 Carlo Rovelli: they say they have seen. 49 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:37,660 Carlo Rovelli: And I turned the computer on 50 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:39,340 Carlo Rovelli: in front of the class. 51 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,560 Carlo Rovelli: But before, I gave them the theory. 52 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,420 Carlo Rovelli: I explained to them that the black hole can merge, 53 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:47,540 Carlo Rovelli: and they produce this wave, 54 00:02:48,380 --> 00:02:51,760 Carlo Rovelli: and oscillations, which first is slow and weak, 55 00:02:51,820 --> 00:02:53,620 Carlo Rovelli: and then become faster and higher. 56 00:02:54,260 --> 00:02:55,520 Carlo Rovelli: So if it was a sound, 57 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:56,700 Carlo Rovelli: it would be something like, 58 00:02:57,020 --> 00:02:57,820 Carlo Rovelli: whoop! 59 00:02:57,820 --> 00:02:59,460 Carlo Rovelli: It's a chirp, 60 00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:00,900 Carlo Rovelli: the chirp of the black hole. 61 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:01,460 Carlo Rovelli: Whip! 62 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,400 Carlo Rovelli: And I drew the shape of this wave of the black hole. 63 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,960 Carlo Rovelli: Then we turned the computer on 64 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,620 Carlo Rovelli: to the press conference. 65 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,620 Narrator: The black holes are getting closer and closer to one another. 66 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,020 Narrator: There is great emotion. 67 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:15,800 Narrator: They're going to merge. 68 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:16,680 Narrator: Boom. 69 00:03:17,260 --> 00:03:20,460 Narrator: The first time that this has ever been seen. 70 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:21,660 Narrator: As I said, 71 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:24,360 Narrator: we can hear gravitational waves. 72 00:03:24,460 --> 00:03:25,960 Narrator: We can hear the universe. 73 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,460 Narrator: And this is a signal that we have measured. 74 00:03:29,020 --> 00:03:30,540 Narrator: There's the rumbling noise, 75 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,080 Narrator: and then there's the chirp. 76 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:34,980 Carlo Rovelli: The shape of the wave appears, 77 00:03:35,460 --> 00:03:38,040 Carlo Rovelli: and is exactly equal to the shape of the chirp of the black hole. 78 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:41,760 Carlo Rovelli: Whoop! 79 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:44,580 Carlo Rovelli: That's the chirp we've been looking for. 80 00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:46,340 Carlo Rovelli: And the students, 81 00:03:46,460 --> 00:03:48,360 Carlo Rovelli: it was a class of 20, 30 students, 82 00:03:48,740 --> 00:03:49,420 Carlo Rovelli: all together, 83 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:50,340 Carlo Rovelli: wow! 84 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:50,900 Carlo Rovelli: What? 85 00:03:53,620 --> 00:03:55,440 Carlo Rovelli: There's like science at its best, 86 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:56,260 Carlo Rovelli: when you're really, 87 00:03:56,580 --> 00:03:57,660 Carlo Rovelli: when you're really science, 88 00:03:57,780 --> 00:03:58,980 Carlo Rovelli: it's shining. 89 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:00,880 Narrator: Gravitational waves. 90 00:04:01,140 --> 00:04:01,860 Narrator: We did it. 91 00:04:01,860 --> 00:04:07,180 Steve Paulson: That is an episode we did on 92 00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:08,780 Steve Paulson: To the Best of Our Knowledge a while back, 93 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,380 Steve Paulson: and today we are excited to bring you 94 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:13,100 Steve Paulson: a brand new conversation with Carlo Rovelli. 95 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:16,560 Anne Strainchamps: Recorded at the Island of Knowledge in Italy, 96 00:04:16,780 --> 00:04:17,680 Steve Paulson: Which, to be clear, 97 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:19,280 Steve Paulson: is not an actual island. 98 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:21,320 Steve Paulson: It's a small think tank in Tuscany 99 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:22,500 Steve Paulson: where three times a year, 100 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,860 Steve Paulson: small groups of scientists and philosophers 101 00:04:24,860 --> 00:04:28,040 Steve Paulson: come together to explore some really big questions. 102 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:28,900 Steve Paulson: And this time, 103 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:29,980 Steve Paulson: Rovelli was there. 104 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:31,280 Carlo Rovelli: What do you want to talk about? 105 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:32,120 Carlo Rovelli: What's the topic? 106 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:32,760 Steve Paulson: You. 107 00:04:33,300 --> 00:04:33,660 Carlo Rovelli: Oh boy. 108 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Carlo Rovelli: Okay. 109 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:38,000 Steve Paulson: So I want to take you back 110 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,660 Steve Paulson: to your early years as a scientist. 111 00:04:41,220 --> 00:04:43,420 Steve Paulson: Why did you want to become a physicist? 112 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,460 Carlo Rovelli: That was not an early call. 113 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,020 Carlo Rovelli: My actual plan after high school 114 00:04:51,020 --> 00:04:54,040 Carlo Rovelli: was to go traveling the world. 115 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,540 Carlo Rovelli: My ambition was to become a beggar. 116 00:04:58,680 --> 00:04:59,240 Steve Paulson: Really? 117 00:04:59,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 118 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:01,140 Steve Paulson: Travel around the world, 119 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:01,760 Steve Paulson: I don't know. 120 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Carlo Rovelli: As a beggar. 121 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:03,880 Steve Paulson: The modern St. Francis, 122 00:05:03,980 --> 00:05:04,880 Steve Paulson: holding out your hat. 123 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:05,480 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, exactly. 124 00:05:05,580 --> 00:05:06,100 Carlo Rovelli: You got it right. 125 00:05:06,220 --> 00:05:08,140 Carlo Rovelli: It was not a lack of esteem in myself. 126 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:09,380 Carlo Rovelli: It was an overestimation. 127 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,340 Carlo Rovelli: The models were St. Francis or Buddha, right? 128 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:14,660 Carlo Rovelli: So it was an overambition. 129 00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:16,220 Steve Paulson: So I have read that 130 00:05:16,220 --> 00:05:17,760 Steve Paulson: one of your formative experiences, 131 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:18,800 Steve Paulson: probably more than one, 132 00:05:18,980 --> 00:05:20,240 Steve Paulson: is psychedelics. 133 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:21,300 Steve Paulson: When you were a teenager, 134 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:22,780 Steve Paulson: LSD in particular? 135 00:05:22,780 --> 00:05:25,180 Carlo Rovelli: Well, psychedelics is even before that. 136 00:05:25,180 --> 00:05:25,540 Steve Paulson: Okay. 137 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:27,040 Carlo Rovelli: In fact, I was a teenager. 138 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:27,760 Carlo Rovelli: I was 16. 139 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:28,340 Steve Paulson: Ah. 140 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:32,560 Carlo Rovelli: I got into that because the little I read about it 141 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,340 Carlo Rovelli: sounded completely fascinating, 142 00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:36,720 Carlo Rovelli: the idea of exploring state of consciousness, 143 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:38,940 Carlo Rovelli: seeing the world differently, 144 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,680 Carlo Rovelli: going with the mind, who knows where. 145 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,920 Carlo Rovelli: These were the early 70s. 146 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:45,820 Carlo Rovelli: I grew up in Verona. 147 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:49,440 Carlo Rovelli: It was a sort of provincial small town in Italy. 148 00:05:49,780 --> 00:05:51,280 Carlo Rovelli: But I was visiting Paris. 149 00:05:52,220 --> 00:05:54,420 Carlo Rovelli: And then a friend of a friend, you know, 150 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,320 Carlo Rovelli: said, oh, maybe I can get some LSD. 151 00:05:56,500 --> 00:05:57,060 Carlo Rovelli: There is somebody, 152 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,000 Carlo Rovelli: people called Los Pagnole, the Spanish. 153 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:00,260 Carlo Rovelli: I'll ask for him. 154 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,860 Carlo Rovelli: So he sold us these little pieces of paper 155 00:06:03,860 --> 00:06:06,260 Carlo Rovelli: and we have no idea whether he's just cheating us. 156 00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:08,520 Steve Paulson: Oh, these were like the acid blotters. 157 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:09,300 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, exactly. 158 00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:10,760 Carlo Rovelli: That was a first. 159 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,940 Carlo Rovelli: And it was a spectacular experience. 160 00:06:12,940 --> 00:06:14,500 Carlo Rovelli: It was extremely powerful, 161 00:06:14,740 --> 00:06:16,900 Carlo Rovelli: which left a big impact on me. 162 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,100 Steve Paulson: Why did it make such an impact on you? 163 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:25,140 Carlo Rovelli: It upset my sense of what I knew about reality entirely. 164 00:06:25,940 --> 00:06:26,800 Carlo Rovelli: I was very young. 165 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,540 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, this was before my first girlfriend. 166 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:29,320 Steve Paulson: Yeah. 167 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:30,600 Steve Paulson: I mean, 16.That's 168 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:31,640 16. 169 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,400 Steve Paulson: young to start taking psychedelics, 170 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:35,620 Steve Paulson: LSD in particular. 171 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:36,660 Carlo Rovelli: It is young, yes. 172 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:39,120 Carlo Rovelli: I had the good fortune of a friend 173 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,900 Carlo Rovelli: that gave me the simplest, best instruction about it. 174 00:06:44,420 --> 00:06:46,940 Carlo Rovelli: He said, look, whatever happens, don't worry, don't panic, 175 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:48,240 Carlo Rovelli: don't resist, let it go. 176 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:49,280 Carlo Rovelli: You're going to come back. 177 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,920 Carlo Rovelli: So, I mean, there was a first phase in which just dancing colors 178 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,740 Carlo Rovelli: and, you know, the houses becoming fat and beautiful. 179 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:00,340 Carlo Rovelli: All this. 180 00:07:00,580 --> 00:07:00,820 Steve Paulson: Right. 181 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,880 Steve Paulson: What were solid lines became wavy. 182 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,280 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, everything wavy and all this theater. 183 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,600 Carlo Rovelli: And we were, the three of us, super happy. 184 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Carlo Rovelli: And then, but that was only the beginning. 185 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:14,640 Carlo Rovelli: Then at some point, I felt this wave arriving on me 186 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,560 Carlo Rovelli: and I just sat down under a tree. 187 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,020 Carlo Rovelli: We were in a park in the night 188 00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:22,020 Carlo Rovelli: and put my hands in front of my eyes 189 00:07:22,020 --> 00:07:25,060 Carlo Rovelli: and just felt that I was going totally elsewhere. 190 00:07:25,220 --> 00:07:30,600 Carlo Rovelli: I remember the first images were this huge red color 191 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,700 Carlo Rovelli: that was opening and me going in and then closing behind me, 192 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:37,980 Carlo Rovelli: and then this blue screen and opening and me going. 193 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,440 Carlo Rovelli: And I said, oh boy, what's going on here? 194 00:07:40,980 --> 00:07:44,740 Carlo Rovelli: There was nothing of what was familiar around. 195 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,560 Carlo Rovelli: No space, no time, no myself. 196 00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:49,360 Carlo Rovelli: With incredible beauty, incredible emotion, 197 00:07:49,620 --> 00:07:51,060 Carlo Rovelli: incredible intensity. 198 00:07:51,260 --> 00:07:53,780 Steve Paulson: Was it a single experience or did you have a few more like that? 199 00:07:53,780 --> 00:07:54,080 Carlo Rovelli: No, I repeated it. 200 00:07:54,260 --> 00:07:55,500 Carlo Rovelli: I'm talking about the first one 201 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:58,760 Carlo Rovelli: because it was really the one which opened up a world for me. 202 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,900 Carlo Rovelli: I repeated it not many times, 203 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:06,400 Carlo Rovelli: maybe in my life less than 10 times during my youth. 204 00:08:06,980 --> 00:08:07,760 Carlo Rovelli: Then I stopped. 205 00:08:10,220 --> 00:08:12,500 Carlo Rovelli: What did I take away from that? 206 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:15,840 Carlo Rovelli: You know, I do quantum gravity. 207 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,260 Carlo Rovelli: I do fundamental physics. 208 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,060 Carlo Rovelli: What is space? 209 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:18,760 Carlo Rovelli: What is time? 210 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:20,500 Steve Paulson: This seems like good training. 211 00:08:20,740 --> 00:08:21,360 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, exactly. 212 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,960 Steve Paulson: To become a theoretical physicist, 213 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,140 Steve Paulson: to question the nature of reality. 214 00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:26,280 Carlo Rovelli: In a sense, yes. 215 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:32,420 Carlo Rovelli: I think there was a liberating, intellectually liberating thing. 216 00:08:32,740 --> 00:08:38,700 Carlo Rovelli: The sense that reality can be profoundly different from our 217 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,220 Carlo Rovelli: everyday view of reality, probably rooted in that, 218 00:08:44,420 --> 00:08:50,440 Carlo Rovelli: I've always felt is like our sleepwalking without seeing what's behind it. 219 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,740 Steve Paulson: I mean, you're talking about experiences you had 50 years ago. 220 00:08:53,740 --> 00:08:55,060 Carlo Rovelli: I'm talking about, yeah, yeah, yeah. 221 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Steve Paulson: And you're saying you still think about those. 222 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:57,680 Carlo Rovelli: I still think about that. 223 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,200 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 224 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,240 Steve Paulson: So you went on, of course, to become a major theoretical physicist. 225 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:03,060 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, much later. 226 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:04,600 Carlo Rovelli: I went to physics 10 years later. 227 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,100 Steve Paulson: But it sounds like those experiences maybe helped push you in the direction 228 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:10,560 Steve Paulson: of wanting to become a physicist. 229 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:11,700 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, maybe. 230 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:12,740 Carlo Rovelli: I was, yeah, sure. 231 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,100 Carlo Rovelli: I was rebellious as a kid. 232 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:21,080 Carlo Rovelli: I grew up in a loving family and in a provincial Italy, a bit fascist. 233 00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:23,720 Carlo Rovelli: I was covered by love by my mother. 234 00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:26,920 Carlo Rovelli: You know, love is the greatest thing around, but sometimes it's heavy. 235 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,940 Carlo Rovelli: I needed to run away. 236 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:37,160 Carlo Rovelli: The same summer in Paris, I met a friend from Sofia, Sofia, Bulgaria, 237 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:40,000 Carlo Rovelli: which at the time was on the other side of the Iron Curtain. 238 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:40,940 Carlo Rovelli: It was the Soviet world. 239 00:09:40,940 --> 00:09:44,640 Carlo Rovelli: We went into enormous political discussions and he kept saying, 240 00:09:44,740 --> 00:09:45,740 Carlo Rovelli: yeah, you should come and see. 241 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:47,480 Carlo Rovelli: And so I decided to go. 242 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,240 Carlo Rovelli: So at 16, alone, I hitchhiked through Europe from Paris to Sofia, 243 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,220 Carlo Rovelli: a thousand kilometers, sleeping in the fields. 244 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:58,440 Carlo Rovelli: I crossed into the Soviet world. 245 00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:02,780 Carlo Rovelli: And that was another liberating, mind liberating experience for me. 246 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,620 Carlo Rovelli: I realized that the Soviet world was nothing like we were told 247 00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:08,900 Carlo Rovelli: by the Western propaganda. 248 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:14,580 Carlo Rovelli: But the shocking thing was that the Soviet propaganda was describing 249 00:10:14,580 --> 00:10:17,680 Carlo Rovelli: a Western world, which is nothing like my experience. 250 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,260 Carlo Rovelli: So I realized that Europe was living at the time split in two parts. 251 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,460 Carlo Rovelli: Each one was telling a story about the other, which is completely fake. 252 00:10:26,820 --> 00:10:31,540 Carlo Rovelli: And since then, I became very sensitive to propaganda somehow. 253 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:32,720 Carlo Rovelli: I listen to the news. 254 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,580 Carlo Rovelli: And even today, I spend my time listening to news from all over the world. 255 00:10:37,780 --> 00:10:39,260 Carlo Rovelli: I regularly make the tour. 256 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,580 Carlo Rovelli: I listen to the Chinese, to the Indians, to the Brazilian, to the Iranians, 257 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:46,080 Carlo Rovelli: to the South Africans, to the Americans, the British, the Italian. 258 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:49,900 Carlo Rovelli: And it's so obvious that everybody's telling stories. 259 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,360 Steve Paulson: Well, and it's just, I mean, going back to those early years, too. 260 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,800 Steve Paulson: You said you started getting really interested in politics. 261 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,340 Steve Paulson: I mean, I know you became a student radical. 262 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,180 Steve Paulson: I mean, literally, manning the barricades. 263 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:03,360 Carlo Rovelli: I was a student radical. 264 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:08,780 Carlo Rovelli: There was a rebellion movement in Italy in the late 70s, 265 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,780 Carlo Rovelli: which was a long way from the sort of the 60s. 266 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:15,060 Carlo Rovelli: So, yes, I was involved in this radical politics. 267 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,800 Carlo Rovelli: I was fascinated by radical movements. 268 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,240 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, from Che Guevara to Mao Zedong, I was that generation. 269 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,260 Steve Paulson: And you were arrested at one point, right, for refusing military service? 270 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:32,880 Carlo Rovelli: I was arrested for refusing military service because I was strongly pacifist in that sense. 271 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:36,180 Carlo Rovelli: I don't believe in borders, even today. 272 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,480 Carlo Rovelli: I don't believe in patria. 273 00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:40,360 Carlo Rovelli: They say I'm not patriotic. 274 00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:41,940 Steve Paulson: Patriotism. 275 00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:43,340 Carlo Rovelli: I don't believe in patriotism. 276 00:11:43,340 --> 00:11:47,060 Carlo Rovelli: I believe in the fact that we are a single tribe all over the planet. 277 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:49,340 Steve Paulson: So, I want to come back to this. 278 00:11:49,420 --> 00:11:50,580 Steve Paulson: I want to come back to politics. 279 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,040 Steve Paulson: But I want to spend a little bit of time talking about your work as a physicist. 280 00:11:55,780 --> 00:12:03,740 Carlo Rovelli: Well, that was somehow the moment of political engagement ended up with quite a disappointment. 281 00:12:04,580 --> 00:12:07,920 Carlo Rovelli: To put it brutally, we wanted to change the world, 282 00:12:08,020 --> 00:12:12,140 Carlo Rovelli: make a revolution for a more gentle world without weapons, without borders. 283 00:12:12,140 --> 00:12:12,820 Carlo Rovelli: And we failed. 284 00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:13,780 Carlo Rovelli: We lost the revolution. 285 00:12:14,420 --> 00:12:16,180 Carlo Rovelli: So, I had to find something else to do. 286 00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:22,280 Carlo Rovelli: And at that precise moment, I fell in love with physics. 287 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:25,480 Carlo Rovelli: It was madly falling in love with physics. 288 00:12:26,180 --> 00:12:27,640 Steve Paulson: Why did you fall in love with physics? 289 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,100 Carlo Rovelli: Because quantum mechanics and general relativity are the most beautiful human creations. 290 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:34,600 Carlo Rovelli: First, Einstein theory. 291 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:36,740 Carlo Rovelli: General relativity is incredibly spectacular. 292 00:12:37,220 --> 00:12:38,540 Carlo Rovelli: It's better than LSD. 293 00:12:38,540 --> 00:12:45,160 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, it's telling that reality is profoundly different than what we instinctively think. 294 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,200 Carlo Rovelli: But in a way, that works so well. 295 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,060 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, there's this curving of space, stretching on time. 296 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,180 Carlo Rovelli: And yet, this works fantastically to describe things which are really in the universe. 297 00:12:55,420 --> 00:12:57,920 Carlo Rovelli: Gravitation waves, black holes, suspenseful universe. 298 00:12:58,460 --> 00:13:03,020 Steve Paulson: So, it was the sense that you were getting closer to what the nature of reality was? 299 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,680 Steve Paulson: Was that the fascination? 300 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,120 Steve Paulson: Or was it sort of at a mathematical level? 301 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:08,260 Carlo Rovelli: No, it was not mathematics. 302 00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:10,200 Carlo Rovelli: I would have never been fascinated by mathematics. 303 00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:11,280 Carlo Rovelli: I'm bored by mathematics. 304 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:13,060 Carlo Rovelli: I'm not a good mathematician. 305 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:14,640 Carlo Rovelli: I have to struggle through mathematics. 306 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,420 Steve Paulson: But it's sort of, my sense is, it's sort of like, I mean, the great thing about theoretical 307 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:24,120 Steve Paulson: physics is, I mean, you're sort of cracking the code in a sense of, you know, how all of 308 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,000 Steve Paulson: this, you know, is structured, came into being in a way, right? 309 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:27,980 Carlo Rovelli: Yes and no. 310 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:34,200 Carlo Rovelli: I would say it's a strong feeling of raising a veil and seeing something that you couldn't 311 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:34,800 Carlo Rovelli: see before. 312 00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:37,740 Carlo Rovelli: Understanding profoundly better reality. 313 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:40,880 Carlo Rovelli: But that doesn't mean cracking the code. 314 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:47,420 Carlo Rovelli: And I never thought, and I still don't think, that science is getting at the bottom of things. 315 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:48,800 Carlo Rovelli: It's getting one more layer. 316 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,820 Carlo Rovelli: But maybe there's another layer. 317 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,200 Carlo Rovelli: There's another layer again. 318 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,920 Carlo Rovelli: I don't like the idea that we are getting to the bottom. 319 00:13:56,500 --> 00:14:00,180 Steve Paulson: Well, I'm surprised that you say that because, I mean, your work on quantum gravity, I mean, 320 00:14:00,220 --> 00:14:04,320 Steve Paulson: one of the things that you're famous for is this effort to reconcile these two 321 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:10,380 Steve Paulson: reigning models of physics, of general relativity and quantum mechanics, which, you know, no 322 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:12,580 Steve Paulson: one has figured out how to sort of bring those two together. 323 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:13,680 Carlo Rovelli: Exactly. 324 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,740 Carlo Rovelli: And I think that there is a way of putting the two together. 325 00:14:16,860 --> 00:14:21,000 Carlo Rovelli: That's what basically I spent my life on. 326 00:14:21,140 --> 00:14:22,980 Carlo Rovelli: I've been paid all my life for trying. 327 00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:30,820 Carlo Rovelli: And with friends and colleagues, we have a tentative way of bringing together quantum mechanics and Einstein 328 00:14:30,820 --> 00:14:31,200 Carlo Rovelli: theories. 329 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,720 Carlo Rovelli: General relativity, I hope it works. 330 00:14:33,820 --> 00:14:34,500 Carlo Rovelli: I hope it's good. 331 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:40,240 Carlo Rovelli: And I think it is understanding something more about the world, something deeper about 332 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:40,720 Carlo Rovelli: the world. 333 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:44,140 Carlo Rovelli: But look, if you have a girlfriend, you understand her better. 334 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,120 Carlo Rovelli: Do you really think you know everything about her? 335 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Steve Paulson: No, of course not. 336 00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:48,560 Carlo Rovelli: And so it's with reality. 337 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:49,500 Carlo Rovelli: It's 338 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:50,300 Carlo Rovelli: like with the girlfriend. 339 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,820 Carlo Rovelli: And it's wonderful when you open your eyes, when you communicate with a person. 340 00:14:55,180 --> 00:14:57,860 Carlo Rovelli: And it's equally wonderful when you communicate with nature. 341 00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:00,100 Carlo Rovelli: You see something about nature you didn't see before. 342 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,860 Carlo Rovelli: So, general relativity is this kind of discovery. 343 00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:10,120 Carlo Rovelli: Wow, we realize that this idea of a rigid space in which we are in a common time, this 344 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,900 Carlo Rovelli: is all approximation. 345 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,240 Carlo Rovelli: It's not the reality, right? 346 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,720 Carlo Rovelli: It's far more complicated than that. 347 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,560 Carlo Rovelli: So, you see beyond it, and you see more. 348 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,300 Carlo Rovelli: But I don't have the ambition that I've got looking to,, talking to God 349 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:24,640 Carlo Rovelli: and getting to the bottom. 350 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,540 Steve Paulson: I mean, no, you know, not finding ultimate reality, but maybe getting a little closer 351 00:15:28,540 --> 00:15:31,540 Steve Paulson: to what is real. 352 00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:35,620 Carlo Rovelli: A little better understanding of this abyssal thing. 353 00:15:36,020 --> 00:15:38,500 Carlo Rovelli: We don't know the fundamental law of quantum gravity yet. 354 00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:39,960 Carlo Rovelli: We don't have a unified theory. 355 00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:41,720 Carlo Rovelli: So, there's so many things we don't know. 356 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:51,900 Carlo Rovelli: We live in an open, marvelous, beautiful, mysterious, sacred universe of which we understand a lot. 357 00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:54,260 Carlo Rovelli: And we are happy to understand a lot. 358 00:15:54,340 --> 00:15:57,620 Carlo Rovelli: It is an incredibly beautiful feeling to understand more. 359 00:15:57,620 --> 00:16:01,540 Carlo Rovelli: And I want to contribute to understand more. 360 00:16:01,540 --> 00:16:07,800 Steve Paulson: So, we're at a scientific conference right now in Italy, 30 miles south of Siena. 361 00:16:08,140 --> 00:16:09,080 Carlo Rovelli: Beautiful countryside. 362 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:09,900 Steve Paulson: Beautiful countryside. 363 00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:12,340 Steve Paulson: We're part of this Island of Knowledge think tank. 364 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,820 Steve Paulson: And the point of this particular meeting that we're at is asking some really big questions. 365 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,640 Steve Paulson: One is, is there ultimate reality? 366 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,400 Steve Paulson: I mean, that is one of the questions that's been put on the table here. 367 00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:25,380 Steve Paulson: And I have to say, you had a fascinating answer to that. 368 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,160 Steve Paulson: I mean, you said when you were young, this was an agonizing question for you. 369 00:16:30,380 --> 00:16:31,180 Steve Paulson: But no longer. 370 00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:34,220 Steve Paulson: You say it's a bad question and we should not ask that question. 371 00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:37,120 Steve Paulson: So, before we get to why you say this is a bad question, 372 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:41,740 Steve Paulson: I want to take you back to when you were young and when you agonized over that question. 373 00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:44,100 Steve Paulson: Okay. 374 00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:47,660 Steve Paulson: While Carlo thinks about this, we're going to take a short break. 375 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:49,640 We'll be right back. 376 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,000 Anne Strainchamps: Hi, it's Anne. I am so glad you're joining us. 377 00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:57,260 Anne Strainchamps: We have some amazing guests lined up for the weeks ahead. 378 00:16:57,420 --> 00:16:58,860 Anne Strainchamps: I'm really excited about them. 379 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:01,400 Anne Strainchamps: And here's a tip. Maybe you know this already, 380 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,840 Anne Strainchamps: but if you follow Wonder Cabinet on Apple Podcasts, 381 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,400 Anne Strainchamps: those new episodes will show up automatically, 382 00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:10,480 Anne Strainchamps: like a little weekly gift in your podcast feed. 383 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:11,780 Anne Strainchamps: I hope you like it. 384 00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:21,100 Steve Paulson: I'm Steve Paulson, and we are back with theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli, who has been thinking 385 00:17:21,100 --> 00:17:25,400 Steve Paulson: about why he was consumed by questions about ultimate reality when he was young. 386 00:17:27,540 --> 00:17:31,540 Carlo Rovelli: Yes, I had a difficult adolescence. 387 00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:34,660 Carlo Rovelli: I disliked the adults around me. 388 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,520 Carlo Rovelli: I couldn't understand why they were doing what they were doing. 389 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:44,800 Carlo Rovelli: Everybody had great, beautiful ideals to talk about, and they seemed to me all to be fake 390 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,640 Carlo Rovelli: and incredibly hypocritical. 391 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,620 Carlo Rovelli: So I was very confused about the world, about everything. 392 00:17:50,740 --> 00:17:52,540 Carlo Rovelli: And this confusion grew, in a sense. 393 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:58,580 Carlo Rovelli: And the desire to put order and understanding was very strong. 394 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:04,900 Carlo Rovelli: And I remember that I had this strong sense, there should be a truth somewhere. 395 00:18:05,060 --> 00:18:06,220 Carlo Rovelli: I want to go for the truth. 396 00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:07,920 Carlo Rovelli: This has been a... 397 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:13,640 Carlo Rovelli: If I read back, I have been writing all my life a lot, just for myself, notebook and notebook. 398 00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:20,660 Carlo Rovelli: And this idea, I want to try to go for the truth, it's all over my writing. 399 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,820 Carlo Rovelli: I don't want to fake it. 400 00:18:24,140 --> 00:18:25,560 Carlo Rovelli: I don't want to become hypocritical. 401 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:26,660 Carlo Rovelli: And I want to search. 402 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,900 Carlo Rovelli: That was also the spirit of the time. 403 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:29,740 Carlo Rovelli: We were all searching. 404 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:31,180 Carlo Rovelli: This is all in search. 405 00:18:31,180 --> 00:18:35,240 Steve Paulson: But I'm sure you're searching now, but it sounds like it's a very different way now. 406 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:36,440 Steve Paulson: So I'm trying to figure out. 407 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:36,940 It is a big... 408 00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:38,300 Steve Paulson: What was the nature of that search? 409 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:38,920 Carlo Rovelli: I'm getting there. 410 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:39,720 Carlo Rovelli: I'm getting there. 411 00:18:40,220 --> 00:18:41,120 Carlo Rovelli: I'm still searching, right? 412 00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:42,220 Carlo Rovelli: I'm paid for searching. 413 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:45,520 Carlo Rovelli: I was so lucky that I then got a job to search. 414 00:18:46,860 --> 00:18:49,060 Carlo Rovelli: But I'm not searching for the ultimate reality. 415 00:18:49,420 --> 00:18:51,320 Carlo Rovelli: I'm searching for understanding of something more. 416 00:18:51,860 --> 00:18:58,280 Carlo Rovelli: And I think the idea of the ultimate reality in science, like in philosophy, it's a bad idea. 417 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,900 Carlo Rovelli: Nowadays, I'm more and more interested in philosophy. 418 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,780 Carlo Rovelli: I go to philosophy conferences. 419 00:19:05,020 --> 00:19:07,240 Carlo Rovelli: This is very philosophical, this meeting. 420 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,040 Carlo Rovelli: I'm invited by philosophy departments. 421 00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:11,320 Carlo Rovelli: I write in philosophy journals. 422 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:12,920 Carlo Rovelli: And I read a huge amount of philosophy. 423 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:22,060 Carlo Rovelli: And the idea of getting to the bottom, understanding the ultimate nature of reality, what is nature, what is fundamental? 424 00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:29,400 Carlo Rovelli: It's matter, spirit, it's God, it's perception, it's consciousness, it's language. 425 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:31,680 Carlo Rovelli: None of this is fundamental. 426 00:19:32,660 --> 00:19:35,880 Carlo Rovelli: It's like when we're talking about music before, right? 427 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,520 Carlo Rovelli: I'm not a musician. 428 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:38,680 Carlo Rovelli: Suppose I was a musician. 429 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,020 Carlo Rovelli: I want to write better and better music. 430 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,140 Carlo Rovelli: Do I want to write the ultimate music? 431 00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:44,800 Carlo Rovelli: No, there's no ultimate music. 432 00:19:45,020 --> 00:19:46,280 Carlo Rovelli: But there is better music. 433 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,820 Carlo Rovelli: And I think there is better knowledge. 434 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,920 Carlo Rovelli: Einstein is better than Newton. 435 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,160 Carlo Rovelli: Newton is very good. 436 00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:55,360 Carlo Rovelli: He’s super, super good and still used a lot. 437 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:56,160 Carlo Rovelli: Einstein is better. 438 00:19:56,580 --> 00:19:58,460 Carlo Rovelli: It's a deeper look into reality. 439 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,360 Carlo Rovelli: And if all goes right, quantum gravity is a little step ahead. 440 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,880 Carlo Rovelli: Can't we be happy with the lack of knowledge? 441 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:13,540 Steve Paulson: Was that something that came, this appreciation of not knowing? 442 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:13,960 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 443 00:20:14,460 --> 00:20:15,880 Steve Paulson: Did that come with age? 444 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,440 Carlo Rovelli: With age, maybe it's just, you know, you get relaxed with age. 445 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:26,300 Steve Paulson: I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity because I'll tell you a little bit about my own personal history. 446 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:35,060 Steve Paulson: So when I was 17, 18, 19, I was obsessed with the existential writers, you know, those kind of depressing European writers. 447 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,020 Steve Paulson: Camus, Dostoevsky, Kafka, you know, all those guys. 448 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:43,600 Steve Paulson: Like The Myth of Sisyphus by Camus is sort of this foundational book for me. 449 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,160 Steve Paulson: And that quest for meaning was hugely important. 450 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,520 Steve Paulson: I agonized over that. 451 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:50,700 Steve Paulson: And I don't anymore. 452 00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:52,500 Steve Paulson: And I've puzzled over that. 453 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Steve Paulson: I mean, you know, maybe I'm wiser now. 454 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,540 Steve Paulson: There’s a lot of lived experience. 455 00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,440 Steve Paulson: Since then, you know, I can sort of rationalize this. 456 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,460 Steve Paulson: Or maybe I'm just a little jaded and life isn't as raw as it once was. 457 00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:06,360 Steve Paulson: I'm kind of a little more comfortable. 458 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:11,200 Steve Paulson: And I don't maybe feel like I need to ask those big questions anymore. 459 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:17,940 Steve Paulson: So I'm interested in your response partly because you're interested in time, and age and time go together. 460 00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:21,940 Steve Paulson: And I'm just wondering, yeah, we're wiser, I guess, as we're older. 461 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:28,000 Steve Paulson: But do we also lose something when we no longer have that rawness of being young? 462 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:29,140 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 463 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:30,940 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 464 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:31,980 Carlo Rovelli: I don't know. 465 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,160 Carlo Rovelli: I don't know which one of these is. 466 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:36,240 Carlo Rovelli: It's probably a combination of those. 467 00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:38,660 Carlo Rovelli: And I actually have asked the same question to myself. 468 00:21:39,340 --> 00:21:40,400 Carlo Rovelli: To some extent, yes. 469 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,220 Carlo Rovelli: You know, I'm much older and happier. 470 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:46,720 Steve Paulson: Right. 471 00:21:46,780 --> 00:21:48,500 Steve Paulson: I would never want to go back to those years. 472 00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:48,960 Steve Paulson: Yeah. 473 00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:55,880 Carlo Rovelli: It's nothing as hard as being a 20-year-old boy, especially if girls are not. 474 00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,560 Carlo Rovelli: And life has been nice. 475 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:05,500 Carlo Rovelli: And I'm more content with what I have. 476 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:06,500 Carlo Rovelli: So that's one thing. 477 00:22:06,580 --> 00:22:07,780 Carlo Rovelli: Another thing is historical. 478 00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:09,940 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, that period I remember very well. 479 00:22:09,940 --> 00:22:14,260 Carlo Rovelli: I also was reading Sartre and Camus and all this anguish. 480 00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:18,560 Carlo Rovelli: And Dostoevsky was my absolute - is still now - my preferred writer. 481 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:25,480 Carlo Rovelli: That was the after Second World War, when Europe had just committed a dramatic suicide in two acts, 482 00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:26,820 Carlo Rovelli: First and Second World War. 483 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:32,380 Carlo Rovelli: The European intellectual scene was totally confused and desperate. 484 00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:33,280 Carlo Rovelli: What have we done? 485 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:39,420 Carlo Rovelli: We thought we were the pinnacle of civilization and master of the world and ourselves. 486 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:44,340 Carlo Rovelli: And the only thing we were able to do is to massacre one another and destroy the continent. 487 00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:50,860 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, this is a moment of profound spiritual dispersion and being lost. 488 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:52,660 Carlo Rovelli: The times have changed. 489 00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:54,300 Carlo Rovelli: We're not in much better times. 490 00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:56,560 Carlo Rovelli: We're probably going to the same horror again. 491 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:04,660 Carlo Rovelli: But besides the two things, I think it was a real intellectual step ahead for me. 492 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:13,940 Carlo Rovelli: Reading philosophers like Wittgenstein or Nagarjuna, a great Buddhist philosopher, had a big, big intellectual impact on me. 493 00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:20,540 Carlo Rovelli: And both of them, from completely different traditions, from completely different, two millennia of difference between the two, 494 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:28,520 Carlo Rovelli: in common, they have this message, which is, you know, be very careful because you're asking questions which are meaningless. 495 00:23:28,780 --> 00:23:31,700 Carlo Rovelli: And you're torturing yourself on questions which are meaningless. 496 00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:38,880 Steve Paulson: So one thing that some people who are sort of searching for that, I don't want to call it ultimate reality, but deeper reality, 497 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,740 Steve Paulson: is they seek out transcendent experiences. 498 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,240 Steve Paulson: I mean, it could be psychedelics. 499 00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:46,440 Steve Paulson: It could be something else. 500 00:23:46,820 --> 00:23:52,740 Steve Paulson: And does transcendence, does that have resonance for you or transcendent experiences, are those important to you? 501 00:23:52,740 --> 00:24:03,240 Carlo Rovelli: I was thinking this morning, because I was talking about that. There are certain experiences which are, you know, powerful, changing, 502 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,060 Carlo Rovelli: taking you outside your normal reality. 503 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,480 Carlo Rovelli: There are mystical experiences, there are psychedelic experiences, or even, you know, when you're completely in love. 504 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:19,620 Carlo Rovelli: So we have an everyday life we go through and then something breaks and we see something completely new, completely different, 505 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,460 Carlo Rovelli: elsewhere, it's true. 506 00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:32,420 Carlo Rovelli: Now, is this transcendence in the sense that I should think of the world as the material reality here, which I see every day, 507 00:24:32,540 --> 00:24:35,600 Carlo Rovelli: and something else, which I rarely, no, no, no. 508 00:24:35,660 --> 00:24:44,480 Carlo Rovelli: I don't think that there is any substantial metaphysical break of the world between immanent and transcendent, 509 00:24:44,620 --> 00:24:49,440 Carlo Rovelli: between mind and matter, between spirit and body. 510 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:56,560 Steve Paulson: So going back to, like, your first LSD experience when you were 17, it changed the way you think. 511 00:24:56,740 --> 00:24:56,900 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 512 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,440 Steve Paulson: But it didn't, you don't necessarily think it sort of put you in touch with some deeper sense of reality. 513 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:12,980 Carlo Rovelli: Not any more than the way the first time I looked into the microscope and what looked like water, 514 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,740 Carlo Rovelli: to my astonishment, everybody's gone through that. 515 00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:22,160 Carlo Rovelli: You know, there's little bugs moving there, there's incredible richness of things happening. 516 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,200 Carlo Rovelli: And wow, I've, yes, I've seen more of reality, but it's not transcendent. 517 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,580 Carlo Rovelli: It's just, you know, bugs down there swimming in the water. 518 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,120 Steve Paulson: It's amazement is what it sounds like. 519 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:33,400 It's amazement. 520 00:25:33,580 --> 00:25:41,780 Carlo Rovelli: It's amazement and it's the realization that reality is far more complex than what we view in our day life. 521 00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:43,540 Carlo Rovelli: So I think this is a point. 522 00:25:44,180 --> 00:25:51,620 Carlo Rovelli: If we think that what reality is, is this cup, this table, you and I, a conversation, day and night, 523 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:57,040 Carlo Rovelli: and that's basically what the world is about, we're completely wrong, okay? 524 00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:02,480 Carlo Rovelli: That's the world, what the world is completely wrong for us at our scale at this, you know, 525 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:05,660 Carlo Rovelli: one meter, a kilometer, hundred kilometers, a few years. 526 00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:13,080 Carlo Rovelli: But at just the scale of the microscope, would see, or quantum gravity would see, or the cosmos, 527 00:26:14,180 --> 00:26:15,500 Carlo Rovelli: reality is far more complicated. 528 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,640 Carlo Rovelli: There are all these layers. 529 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,200 Carlo Rovelli: So once you realize that there are all these layers, all this complexity, all this, 530 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:29,140 Carlo Rovelli: to split the world into an immanent and a transcendent, it's just silly. 531 00:26:29,460 --> 00:26:31,460 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, there's more richness than that. 532 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,140 Steve Paulson: So I want to come back. 533 00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:36,760 Steve Paulson: I want to pick up a thread from earlier in the conversation, going back to politics. 534 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:37,220 Carlo Rovelli: Okay. 535 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,800 Steve Paulson: And you were saying that, you know, you were an active student radical. 536 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:45,620 Steve Paulson: At a certain point, you just felt like you and your movement had failed. 537 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,300 Steve Paulson: And so you went into physics at that point, you know, maybe changing the world in that sense. 538 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,300 Steve Paulson: But I know you have remained active politically. 539 00:26:53,500 --> 00:27:00,360 Steve Paulson: I mean, a few years ago, you helped get a bunch of Nobel Prize winners to sign a letter. 540 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:11,020 Steve Paulson: I think more than 50, signing a letter, to reduce military spending and instead use that money for dealing with climate change and poverty and, you know, real social and environmental issues. 541 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:18,520 Steve Paulson: And I guess I'm wondering if that's, is that just an entirely separate enterprise from what you do as a physicist? 542 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,280 Steve Paulson: Or are they connected in some way? 543 00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:25,920 Carlo Rovelli: Well, for me, they're connected because that's all me. 544 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:46,660 Carlo Rovelli: And in a sense, when I, in my late 20s, got into full immersion into science and started spending my time doing calculations and being in front of a blackboard with my friends and colleagues for days, months, years, I was missing the social engagement. 545 00:27:46,660 --> 00:27:49,740 Carlo Rovelli: And I was even feeling a little bit guilty. 546 00:27:50,220 --> 00:27:51,540 Carlo Rovelli: It's not, I'm not going to change the world. 547 00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:52,340 Carlo Rovelli: I learned that. 548 00:27:52,960 --> 00:28:00,580 Carlo Rovelli: But yet, the good part of the world is thanks to a lot of people who have believed in a better world and worked for it. 549 00:28:00,860 --> 00:28:05,580 Carlo Rovelli: Worked for, I don't know, equality of human, abolition of slavery, abolition of death penalty. 550 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,120 Carlo Rovelli: You know, democracy didn't come for free. 551 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,160 Carlo Rovelli: People fought for it and so on. 552 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:17,040 Carlo Rovelli: Now, more recently, I went back to some sort of engagement like the one you mentioned. 553 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,000 Carlo Rovelli: Not very successful either. 554 00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:20,940 Carlo Rovelli: It's the second time. 555 00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:25,080 Steve Paulson: Well, in terms of actually getting countries to reduce their military spending, yeah. 556 00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:25,380 Carlo Rovelli: Yes. 557 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,600 Carlo Rovelli: Well, the idea was, you know, the idea of that thing and all this Nobel Prize, I got the signature of 60 Nobel Prizes. 558 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,420 Carlo Rovelli: And the idea was not to ask your own government to reduce military spending. 559 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:44,900 Carlo Rovelli: The idea was to ask your own government to start negotiating worldwide for a global common reduction of military spending. 560 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,080 Carlo Rovelli: Keeping the balance of power. 561 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:56,060 Carlo Rovelli: So asking, you know, my country decreased by 2% military spending, but also our enemies, so to say, decreased. 562 00:28:56,060 --> 00:29:01,680 Carlo Rovelli: So the most stupid thing we humans do is to kill one another and fight. 563 00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:02,640 Carlo Rovelli: It's obvious. 564 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,560 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, if we collaborate, everything gets better for everybody. 565 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,160 Carlo Rovelli: And then we start fighting again because we're irrational. 566 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:17,700 Carlo Rovelli: I think that humankind has just one single enemy, its own irrationality that pushes one against the other one. 567 00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:31,840 Carlo Rovelli: And I think the people like me who have the privilege of being paid for thinking, essentially, intellectuals of different kinds, have a duty of, you know, I've been paid for thinking. 568 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,700 Carlo Rovelli: So let me tell you what I'm thinking. 569 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,160 Carlo Rovelli: Not just on physics. 570 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:37,540 Steve Paulson: Well, yes. 571 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,560 Steve Paulson: I mean, I was struck by what you said, that you were starting to feel a little guilty. 572 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:48,120 Steve Paulson: And I guess the question is, feeling a little guilty if you weren't politically engaged in some way. 573 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:56,600 Steve Paulson: And it raises the question of whether, no matter how cool, how amazing the science of quantum gravity might be, is... 574 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:57,940 Carlo Rovelli: Is not the most important thing. 575 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,040 Steve Paulson: Yeah, I mean, 576 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,360 Steve Paulson: is there an ethics to this? 577 00:30:01,540 --> 00:30:04,140 Steve Paulson: I don't want to get too heavy-handed here, but 578 00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:05,060 Steve Paulson: how do you think about that? 579 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,820 Steve Paulson: I mean, it's sort of the responsibility of the intellectual, the responsibility of the scientist. 580 00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:22,460 Carlo Rovelli: So the responsibility of the scientists, the physicists in particular, have the burden of the nuclear weapons that have the poisonous gift they've given to humankind, which are seriously risking today to destroy us. 581 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,240 Carlo Rovelli: Look, my reading of the world is that we're going toward another catastrophe. 582 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:35,020 Carlo Rovelli: The West has dominated the world for two or three centuries, is losing its power, but doesn't want to lose it. 583 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:41,420 Carlo Rovelli: So it's military-dominating, it's imposing its will on the rest of the planet, the rest of the planet is not happy. 584 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,600 Carlo Rovelli: This is a dramatically unstable situation. 585 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,100 Carlo Rovelli: And everybody's demonizing everybody else. 586 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:55,160 Carlo Rovelli: So for the Americans, the Russians are all very, very nasty, and so are the Chinese, and vice versa, and so on and so forth. 587 00:30:55,860 --> 00:30:58,860 Carlo Rovelli: We have in front of us a recipe for a total disaster. 588 00:30:58,860 --> 00:31:02,120 Carlo Rovelli: Now, humans sometimes are reasonable, right? 589 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:14,680 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, the Soviet Union, the United States sat down and destroyed 80% of their nuclear arsenal, not little because of the push of scientists - the physicists, feeling guilty for what they've done. 590 00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:18,080 Carlo Rovelli: They said, careful, I mean, just please be reasonable. 591 00:31:18,380 --> 00:31:25,600 Carlo Rovelli: And Gorbachev is on record as saying that the effect of the scientists pushed him toward that. 592 00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:27,440 Carlo Rovelli: So why are we not doing the same again? 593 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:44,440 Carlo Rovelli: I think that in this moment in which belligerence is growing everywhere, any voice that raises and says, calm down, bring down the heat, discuss, sit, it's a good voice. 594 00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:45,620 Steve Paulson: Yeah, yeah. 595 00:31:45,860 --> 00:31:49,300 Steve Paulson: So we were talking earlier about the wonder of science. 596 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,620 Steve Paulson: I mean, you were just saying it was just amazing, you know, when you first got into doing physics. 597 00:31:54,620 --> 00:31:56,420 Steve Paulson: Is there a politics of wonder? 598 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,780 Carlo Rovelli: Ah! Is there a politics of wonder? 599 00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:02,360 Carlo Rovelli: Huh. 600 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,220 Carlo Rovelli: Probably, yes. 601 00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:05,840 Carlo Rovelli: I don't know. 602 00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:07,260 Carlo Rovelli: I never thought in these terms. 603 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,520 Carlo Rovelli: You surprised me here. 604 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,200 Carlo Rovelli: Wonder is something that makes you change, right? 605 00:32:14,540 --> 00:32:17,980 Carlo Rovelli: It's exactly what happens when you break out from your routine. 606 00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:24,300 Carlo Rovelli: You wonder because you discover a new idea, because you're a new person, because you're an experience. 607 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:30,340 Carlo Rovelli: Wonder is, for Aristotle, what starts the philosophical search. 608 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,100 Carlo Rovelli: Wonder triggers curiosity and triggers desire to know. 609 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:37,100 Steve Paulson: Right. 610 00:32:37,140 --> 00:32:40,060 Steve Paulson: He said all philosophy starts in wonder, I believe. 611 00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:41,920 Carlo Rovelli: He says all philosophy starts in wonder. 612 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:42,180 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 613 00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:47,740 Carlo Rovelli: I mean, he says you wonder and then you start thinking and you start, but thinking meaning not 614 00:32:47,740 --> 00:32:51,480 Carlo Rovelli: being content with the current worldview that you have? 615 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Carlo Rovelli: I think, yes. 616 00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:58,200 Carlo Rovelli: And in a sense, oversimplifying, there are two ways of going through life. 617 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,600 Carlo Rovelli: One is that, well, I know everything there is to know. 618 00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:01,700 Carlo Rovelli: I know what I have to do. 619 00:33:01,940 --> 00:33:04,120 Carlo Rovelli: And the world is what it is. 620 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,320 Carlo Rovelli: And politically, what is around me, it is fine, no problem. 621 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,280 Carlo Rovelli: And we are in a very good world from many perspectives, no doubt. 622 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:20,700 Carlo Rovelli: We have a fantastically good world, even folding in the current world and, you know, 800 million 623 00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:23,780 Carlo Rovelli: people who don't have enough food today on the planet. 624 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:31,920 Carlo Rovelli: But, you know, in past centuries it was worse, thanks to people who could not take the present 625 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:39,720 Carlo Rovelli: for granted and dream something new because they had an idea that fascinated them and because 626 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,240 Carlo Rovelli: they had wonder. 627 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,520 Carlo Rovelli: And science is clearly motivated to wonder. 628 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,060 Carlo Rovelli: You know, there's this funny thing. 629 00:33:46,220 --> 00:33:54,740 Carlo Rovelli: Scientists had to control their own emotions and they built up this picture of science, which 630 00:33:54,740 --> 00:33:56,140 Carlo Rovelli: is emotionless. 631 00:33:56,420 --> 00:33:56,520 Steve Paulson: Right. 632 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,960 Steve Paulson: You're going to corrupt the science if you let your emotions into it. 633 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,120 Carlo Rovelli: You're going to corrupt the science, which to some extent is true, but emotions are 634 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,600 Carlo Rovelli: the fuel that pushes science. 635 00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:10,500 Carlo Rovelli: Otherwise, who would be interested in learning something else? 636 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,540 Carlo Rovelli: Because you're curious, because you want to look at the planet and you say, why do they 637 00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:17,140 Carlo Rovelli: go around that way around us? 638 00:34:17,820 --> 00:34:19,960 Carlo Rovelli: You know, you study general relativity, wow. 639 00:34:20,420 --> 00:34:23,520 Carlo Rovelli: And then you say, how does it go together with quantum? 640 00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:24,400 Carlo Rovelli: And so on. 641 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,520 Carlo Rovelli: Is this, and it makes our life so much better, right? 642 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,240 Carlo Rovelli: To some extent, children who wonder all the time have a wonderful life. 643 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:33,900 Steve Paulson: Yeah. 644 00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:39,240 Steve Paulson: But I love your… when I asked about the politics of wonder, imagining what a better 645 00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:40,260 Steve Paulson: world would be. 646 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:40,580 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 647 00:34:41,420 --> 00:34:44,840 Steve Paulson: Because so often we just think of wonder as, it's like 648 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,280 Steve Paulson: you walk out in a beautiful forest and that's wonderful. 649 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,080 Steve Paulson: But it's imagining a better world. 650 00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:51,860 Steve Paulson: Wow. 651 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:52,980 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah. 652 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,660 Carlo Rovelli: To imagine if there was no war and we could all live in peace. 653 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:57,200 Yeah. 654 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,320 Steve Paulson: So I have one final question 655 00:34:59,320 --> 00:34:59,560 Steve Paulson: that’s 656 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,200 Steve Paulson: related to what we were just talking about. 657 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,120 Steve Paulson: I mentioned that the podcast we're starting is called Wonder Cabinet, and we're just 658 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,600 Steve Paulson: playing around with this imaginary exercise: if there is an imaginary wonder 659 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,400 Steve Paulson: cabinet - you know, a cabinet of wonders, a cabinet of curiosities 660 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:21,360 Steve Paulson: in the modern age, in the 21st century, we're trying to collect a library of wonders. 661 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:29,140 Steve Paulson: So if there was an object or a concept or an experience or whatever it might be - one 662 00:35:29,140 --> 00:35:33,060 Steve Paulson: thing that you'd want to put into that cabinet of wonders - anything come to mind? 663 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,280 Carlo Rovelli: I don't know. 664 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,720 Carlo Rovelli: I didn't think about that, but you pushed me to discuss so much about this idea 665 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:42,100 Carlo Rovelli: that there's no ultimate reality. 666 00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:44,700 Carlo Rovelli: Can I put this notion into your cabinet of wonders? 667 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:45,520 Steve Paulson: Yeah, absolutely. 668 00:35:46,460 --> 00:35:49,980 Carlo Rovelli: The absence of an ultimate reality, specifically. 669 00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:50,700 Steve Paulson: Okay. 670 00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:58,080 Carlo Rovelli: This idea that we live in a world of relations, which are sort of mirrors, reflecting mirrors. 671 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:00,240 Wow. 672 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:00,560 Steve Paulson: Okay. 673 00:36:00,580 --> 00:36:01,520 Steve Paulson: I have to think about that. 674 00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:06,940 Steve Paulson: That's the wonderful thing you would put in the cabinet of wonders, is forgetting, or abolishing, 675 00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:08,780 Steve Paulson: the idea that there is ultimate reality. 676 00:36:08,780 --> 00:36:16,940 Carlo Rovelli: Yeah, and I find it beautiful, liberating, sort of full of light, and powerful, incredibly 677 00:36:16,940 --> 00:36:17,440 Carlo Rovelli: powerful. 678 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:22,040 Carlo Rovelli: It leaves space open for everything. 679 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,780 Carlo Rovelli: It leaves freedom, in a sense. 680 00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:26,860 Carlo Rovelli: It's okay for your cabinet? 681 00:36:27,220 --> 00:36:28,280 Carlo Rovelli: You want something more concrete? 682 00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:29,680 Steve Paulson: No, no, that is wonderful. 683 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,220 Steve Paulson: I love it. 684 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:30,500 Carlo Rovelli: Okay. 685 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:32,220 Steve Paulson: Thank you. 686 00:36:32,260 --> 00:36:33,140 Steve Paulson: This has been such a pleasure. 687 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:33,860 Carlo Rovelli: Thank you. 688 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:34,640 Carlo Rovelli: Thank you very much. 689 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,740 Steve Paulson: That's the physicist, Carlo Rovelli, talking with us from the Island of Knowledge think tank 690 00:36:39,740 --> 00:36:44,680 Steve Paulson: near Siena, where scientists and philosophers and writers gather in an old chapel under the 691 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,320 Steve Paulson: olive trees. 692 00:36:45,860 --> 00:36:48,680 Steve Paulson: We'll be back with more interviews from Italy in the coming months. 693 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,440 Anne Strainchamps: Wonder Cabinet is produced in Madison, Wisconsin, at our home studios. 694 00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:56,300 Anne Strainchamps: Our audio engineer is Steve Gotcher. 695 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,200 Anne Strainchamps: Theme music by Joe Hartke. 696 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,560 Anne Strainchamps: And our digital producer is Mark Riechers. 697 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,320 Steve Paulson: Support for the Island of Knowledge and Wonder Cabinet comes from Dartmouth College and the 698 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:06,540 Steve Paulson: John Templeton Foundation. 699 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:08,480 Steve Paulson: I'm Steve Paulson. 700 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:09,800 Anne Strainchamps: And I'm Anne Strainchamps. 701 00:37:10,020 --> 00:37:13,520 Anne Strainchamps: Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for the next episode of Wonder Cabinet. 702 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,940 Anne Strainchamps: I'll be talking with writer and activist Rebecca Solnit about the moral value of hope and wonder 703 00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:21,600 Anne Strainchamps: during difficult times. 704 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,000 Steve Paulson: And meanwhile, we'd love to hear from you. 705 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,720 Steve Paulson: Send your questions and comments, and sign up for our newsletter at wondercabinetproductions.com. 706 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:31,440 Anne Strainchamps: See you next time.