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Welcome to Wonder Cabinet.

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I'm Anne Strain-Champs.

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And I'm Steve Paulson.

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Where do you turn when wonder feels out of reach?

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When your country's at war with itself?

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When American cities look like they are under siege,

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and you feel helpless even while you're glued to the news.

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At times like these, wonder can seem like a trivial emotion.

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Irrelevant, even escapist.

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But maybe it can also be a doorway to a better future.

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Today, writer and activist Rebecca Solnit joins us to talk about

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the moral value of wonder and a long arc of progress.

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You know, we had a profound cultural change,

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which was so slow and incremental.

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It often feels like nobody really noticed.

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And I feel like the opposite of a Paul Revere,

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not running around saying something just happened,

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but saying something has been slowly happening,

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and this moment is radically different than 30 or 50 or 100 years ago.

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Okay, let's pause for a sec.

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We should remind people who Rebecca Solnit is.

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Right.

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She's a writer and public intellectual and activist

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who has been involved in environmental and human rights issues

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for more than three decades.

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I'd say she's one of the most influential writers on the left.

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She's written more than 20 books.

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Some of them are famous.

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Hope in the Dark, The Field Guide to Getting Lost,

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Men Explain Things to Me.

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She writes about feminism, popular protest,

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walking and wandering, the history of the American West.

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I mean, I know her books, but you follow her online, I think.

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I do, especially at times like this,

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when I'm really looking for a critical analysis

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of what our government is doing.

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She's one of the people I turn to,

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and Solnit has this really uncanny ability

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to bring together what I would call up-to-the-minute journalism

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with this broader historical view.

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And there's a distinguished tradition of people who write like this.

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Barbara Ehrenreich was one,

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and one of her own personal heroes, George Orwell.

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But you really pushed to have her on Wonder Cabinet.

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Why was that so important to you?

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Two things.

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Because we live, you and I, five hours from Minneapolis.

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And those videos of masked federal agents

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kitted out as if they're going into battle in Fallujah,

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smashing windshields and breaking down doors,

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that has all been happening on streets that look like ours.

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And I know that the shock and the horror is intentional,

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that the terror is the point,

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but it has really felt like beauty and decency

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and the ability even to have a sense of wonder is under attack.

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And then here's the second reason

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that I wanted to talk to Rebecca Solnit.

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I keep remembering this conversation we had about her last book,

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Orwell's Roses.

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And this is the book in which she talks about

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beauty and gardens and roses

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and all those small everyday joys

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as a form of resistance,

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as fundamentally anti-totalitarian.

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And so I wanted to know how that idea would hold up today,

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if it would.

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And it turns out she has a book coming out in March

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that is absolutely of this moment

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and yet profoundly hopeful.

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Really hopeful?

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You'd think it would be anything but?

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Well, it's a nuanced hope.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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But the clue is in the title.

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The beginning comes after the end.

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Okay.

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So I know there is that old line from Antonio Gramsci's

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prison notebooks where he says that

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the old world is dying

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and the new world struggles to be born.

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That's the reference?

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That's the reference.

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And she is using it to reframe

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America's authoritarian turn

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as the last gasp of a dying worldview.

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You know, so she's writing against

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the tone of apocalyptic dread

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that suffuses so much commentary today

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and in a voice of hope and wonder.

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Okay.

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Let's listen.

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I thought we could start with the story you tell

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at the beginning of the book

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just because I love the scene.

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It was this October morning, 2024.

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You're on a California hill

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looking over the ocean.

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Could you take us there and paint that picture

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and then tell me why you wanted to begin the book there?

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Yeah.

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It was a really windy day

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which made it hard to hear anybody.

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The landscape felt almost scorched

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from the dry summer

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as California does before the rains come back

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and it wasn't a dramatically glamorous place.

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It wasn't the top of half dome

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or giant redwood trees

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or what the same place might look like in spring

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but it was a miraculous place

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because I was at a land back ceremony

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for a tribe that didn't have federal recognition

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until the year 2000

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and so a number of miraculous things had to happen

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that put us in a place

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that was unimaginable before.

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I grew up very near this place

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at the northernmost tip of Marin County

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and when I grew up in that place

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people had nothing to say about Native Californians,

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ignored them altogether

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or asserted that they were all gone

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and something that I think is really remarkable

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is that people who were told

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that they were over,

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they were anachronistic,

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they were extinct

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have become in many ways

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the visions and the voices

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leading us into a sustainable, viable future.

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So everything has changed

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and it's changed in complex ways,

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subtle ways, slow ways, incremental ways

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that so often haven't been recognized

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which made me feel like

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I needed to write a book

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just describing the change.

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What you're saying is so welcome

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and also such a contrast

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to the mood right now.

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I mean, we are talking the same week

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when Renee Goode was shot and killed by ice.

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To say that many of us feel completely overwhelmed

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is an understatement

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and in the face of this

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you're writing very intentionally

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against despair

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and I wonder

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why is that despair story

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so sticky?

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I totally understand

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and share some of the feeling of horror

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that people have in this moment

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and fear

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but I think the big story

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and this is really a story

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that the right is telling us

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if we listen carefully enough

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what I hear the right saying

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is you all are very powerful

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you have changed the world profoundly

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all this stuff you have done

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whether it's marriage equality

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or women's rights

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or environmental protection

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or telling the real history

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of this country

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are all connected.

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We hate it

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we want to reverse it

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we want to hit rewind on the VCR

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and something that I believe is true

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is you can change laws

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but you can't change beliefs as readily

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you can take away reproductive rights

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but you can't take away the belief

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that we deserve reproductive rights

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and wanting people

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to just take more nuanced

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complex and patient views

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rather than being

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the people I so often run into

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who are like

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we had a protest on Tuesday

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and the government didn't drop to its knees

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and hand us everything on Wednesday

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so nothing happened

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you know

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you get this impatience

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this oversimplification

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this inability to see change itself

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that I think really feeds the defeatism

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and I'm here to feed the hope

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realistic hope

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pragmatic hope

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engaged hope

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because we live in a world

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that has changed in ways

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that we now barely see

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but that's actually really awesome.

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While you were talking

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I was remembering

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something that British activist

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and song collector Sam Lee

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likes to say

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culture eats politics for breakfast.

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I think of politics

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as like this kind of scum

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on top of the deep strata

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that our culture

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culture shapes politics

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it reshapes politics

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ideas really matter

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and we're often told

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that artists, musicians, writers

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educators, educators, historians

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are somehow lightweight

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trivial

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insignificant people

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but when you change the story

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everything changes

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they're trying to change the story

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which they're not very good at

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they're not going to make people believe

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slavery was a good thing

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especially black people

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things mostly change incrementally

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and the Berlin Wall falls

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but there's a build up to it

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you know

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marriage equality comes about

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11 years ago

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but there's a long long campaign

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of changing the way

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the rest of us

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think about queer people

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about rights

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and about the institution of marriage

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that makes this sudden thing possible

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I was actually thinking this morning

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about how when I was a kid

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a huge number of Americans

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believed that they didn't know

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anybody gay or lesbian

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yeah

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and which is you know

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which when you add it all up

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I think is 10% of the population

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and you know

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I don't think we'll ever live

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in a world where people think

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they don't know anybody

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queer anymore

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and it does feel like

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that long view

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is a bit countercultural

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in the sense that

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so many of the stories

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that we are surrounded by

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are so now now now

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you know

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what just happened

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today

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this hour

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yesterday

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so trying to hold on

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to that bigger picture

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gets harder and harder

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for a reason

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yeah

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and it's actually really

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handicapped us

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when it comes to understanding

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a lot of incremental change

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for the better or worse

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climate change

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has been really hard

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for people

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to wrap their minds around

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because it's a very

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incremental global process

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with many causes

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and many solutions

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but to your larger point

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I wrote a piece

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for The Guardian

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a few years ago

289
00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:08,240
whose opening line

290
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:09,700
I'm very fond of

291
00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:10,120
I said

292
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:11,760
I often feel like

293
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:12,400
a tortoise

294
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,660
at a mayfly party

295
00:10:13,660 --> 00:10:14,320
you know

296
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:15,500
tortoises can live

297
00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:16,940
for 170 years

298
00:10:16,940 --> 00:10:18,360
mayflies actually

299
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,080
live a long time

300
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,140
in their larval stage

301
00:10:20,140 --> 00:10:21,420
but in their adult stage

302
00:10:21,420 --> 00:10:22,700
live for a day or two

303
00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:24,600
and I move around

304
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:25,540
feeling like

305
00:10:25,540 --> 00:10:26,500
I understand

306
00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:27,520
how successful

307
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:28,740
feminism has been

308
00:10:28,740 --> 00:10:30,100
because I remember

309
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:31,020
how grim

310
00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:31,900
and repressive

311
00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:32,760
and equal

312
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,040
the status of women was

313
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,740
including my own mother

314
00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:38,020
in the world

315
00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:39,080
I was born into

316
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,420
64 years ago

317
00:10:40,420 --> 00:10:42,960
and so yeah

318
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,040
we've lost some things

319
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,080
in recent years

320
00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:46,320
but it sure as hell

321
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,120
isn't 1961 again

322
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,000
and I don't think

323
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:49,960
it ever will be

324
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,560
I remember saying

325
00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:51,940
something

326
00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:53,000
some young woman

327
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:53,500
saying well

328
00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:53,840
of course

329
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:54,920
I didn't play sports

330
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,100
when I was growing up

331
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:56,740
and they said

332
00:10:56,740 --> 00:10:57,340
oh why not

333
00:10:57,340 --> 00:10:57,640
and I said

334
00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:58,580
well everything changed

335
00:10:58,580 --> 00:10:59,560
after Title IX

336
00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:00,360
and they said

337
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:01,800
what was Title IX

338
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:02,980
so it's like

339
00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:03,540
we just forget

340
00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:05,380
yeah people forget

341
00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:06,380
all that stuff

342
00:11:06,380 --> 00:11:07,640
there's a wonderful

343
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,000
sentence or pair of sentences

344
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,160
by the theologian

345
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,020
Walter Brueggemann

346
00:11:12,020 --> 00:11:12,860
where he says

347
00:11:12,860 --> 00:11:14,380
amnesia breeds despair

348
00:11:14,380 --> 00:11:15,320
the way that memory

349
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:16,100
breeds hope

350
00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:17,480
and people think

351
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:18,760
hope is about the future

352
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,940
but the future

353
00:11:20,940 --> 00:11:22,700
is unknown

354
00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:23,600
it doesn't exist

355
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:24,420
we're making it

356
00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:24,960
in the present

357
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:25,800
which is actually

358
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,080
a really hopeful reality

359
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,200
people pretend

360
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,100
we know the future

361
00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:30,160
which is usually

362
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:30,860
what I call

363
00:11:30,860 --> 00:11:31,740
upper middle class

364
00:11:31,740 --> 00:11:32,820
peasant fatalism

365
00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:33,920
it will never

366
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,220
it will never work

367
00:11:36,220 --> 00:11:37,440
I know exactly

368
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:38,540
what will happen

369
00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:39,660
it's this bizarre way

370
00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:40,680
people allocate

371
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:41,320
themselves

372
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,080
a power they don't have

373
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:44,020
to know the future

374
00:11:44,020 --> 00:11:44,820
to abandon

375
00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:46,120
the power they do have

376
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,020
which is also

377
00:11:47,020 --> 00:11:47,800
a responsibility

378
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,700
to make the future

379
00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:51,280
but the past

380
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,180
is what gives us

381
00:11:52,180 --> 00:11:52,920
the templates

382
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:53,780
the examples

383
00:11:53,780 --> 00:11:54,600
the understanding

384
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,840
of the trajectories

385
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:56,500
the forces

386
00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:58,420
if you know the past

387
00:11:58,420 --> 00:11:59,880
you can see change

388
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:01,140
and often that requires

389
00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:02,080
being slow

390
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,920
and it's not just

391
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:04,860
you know

392
00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:05,860
do we know

393
00:12:05,860 --> 00:12:07,180
and value history

394
00:12:07,180 --> 00:12:07,860
some of it is

395
00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:08,820
some of these changes

396
00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:09,400
you know

397
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,380
you make this point

398
00:12:10,380 --> 00:12:11,700
some of these changes

399
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:13,620
happen off camera

400
00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:14,560
in a way

401
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:16,160
you've got a lovely

402
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:17,940
section on

403
00:12:17,940 --> 00:12:18,680
the move

404
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:19,700
to renewable energy

405
00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:20,920
which I confess

406
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:21,860
I did not know

407
00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:23,140
until I read that section

408
00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:23,760
in your book

409
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,520
just the extraordinary

410
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:26,680
strides

411
00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:27,520
that have been made

412
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:28,160
in the last

413
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:28,940
10 years

414
00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:30,520
renewables

415
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,700
well to frame it

416
00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:33,420
for this show

417
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:34,700
fill me with wonder

418
00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:35,800
and it really took me

419
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:36,600
reading a book

420
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:37,440
about the history

421
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:38,060
of coal

422
00:12:38,060 --> 00:12:39,340
written at the end

423
00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:40,360
of the 20th century

424
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,180
to realize

425
00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:43,280
wow when this book

426
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:43,840
was written

427
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:44,860
we really did not

428
00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:45,600
have an alternative

429
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,460
to fossil fuel

430
00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:47,540
because wind and solar

431
00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:48,680
were primitive

432
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:49,540
expensive

433
00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:50,680
utterly inadequate

434
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:51,600
technologies

435
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,420
and then to realize

436
00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:55,100
oh my god

437
00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:56,320
we've had an energy

438
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:56,920
revolution

439
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:57,560
and then it took

440
00:12:57,560 --> 00:12:58,280
a few more years

441
00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:58,700
to realize

442
00:12:58,700 --> 00:12:59,600
like no

443
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:00,480
we're actually

444
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:01,640
in the early stages

445
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,000
of an energy revolution

446
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:03,760
wind

447
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:04,280
sun

448
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:05,520
batteries

449
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,060
maybe tidal power

450
00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:08,340
what else is coming

451
00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:10,520
and that changes

452
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:11,260
everything

453
00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:12,100
and there's a

454
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:12,780
mindset

455
00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:13,620
very stuck

456
00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:14,320
in the kind of

457
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,060
Al Gore

458
00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:16,260
Prius compact

459
00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:17,580
fluorescent light bulb

460
00:13:17,580 --> 00:13:18,380
era that thinks

461
00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:20,140
that it's all

462
00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:21,080
got to be

463
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:22,440
a kind of

464
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:23,160
thrift

465
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,380
conservation

466
00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:25,920
austerity

467
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,200
and so we live

468
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,320
in a completely

469
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:29,120
different set

470
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:29,980
of possibilities

471
00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:30,700
than we did

472
00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:31,680
even 10 or 15

473
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:32,460
years ago

474
00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:34,340
and every prediction

475
00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:35,200
about the price

476
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:35,900
of solar

477
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:37,480
and its proliferation

478
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:38,260
has been an

479
00:13:38,260 --> 00:13:38,760
underestimate

480
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:39,980
because any

481
00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:41,040
accurate estimate

482
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:41,920
would have seemed

483
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:42,700
insane

484
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:43,600
at the time

485
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:44,300
it was made

486
00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:45,200
and then it

487
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,100
became reality

488
00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:47,360
and this is part

489
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:47,940
of what people

490
00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:48,760
don't remember

491
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:49,640
is before the

492
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:50,300
Berlin Wall

493
00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:50,880
falls

494
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:51,700
before marriage

495
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:52,260
equality

496
00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:53,980
before California

497
00:13:53,980 --> 00:13:55,060
becomes a place

498
00:13:55,060 --> 00:13:56,100
that's dropped

499
00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:56,720
its use of

500
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:57,500
natural gas

501
00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:58,500
by 40%

502
00:13:58,500 --> 00:13:59,680
because renewables

503
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:00,840
these things

504
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:01,460
seem

505
00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:03,360
inconceivable

506
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,180
impossible

507
00:14:04,180 --> 00:14:06,260
and so I want

508
00:14:06,260 --> 00:14:07,080
people to see

509
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,060
that as equipment

510
00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:08,720
to face

511
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,120
an absolutely

512
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:10,720
difficult

513
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,420
and scary

514
00:14:11,420 --> 00:14:12,000
present

515
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:12,800
but to face

516
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:13,420
it with

517
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:14,860
a kind of

518
00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:15,540
resoluteness

519
00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:16,360
and confidence

520
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:17,140
in our own

521
00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:17,640
power

522
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,080
we've been

523
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:19,680
talking about

524
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:20,060
hope

525
00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:21,260
making the case

526
00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:21,600
for this

527
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:22,940
very realistic

528
00:14:22,940 --> 00:14:24,200
pragmatic hope

529
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,080
but I want to

530
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:25,880
shift and ask you

531
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,100
about a related

532
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:27,920
emotion

533
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:28,160
at least

534
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:28,660
which I think

535
00:14:28,660 --> 00:14:29,260
is related

536
00:14:29,260 --> 00:14:30,040
wonder

537
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,300
and you know

538
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:32,160
when Steve and I

539
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:32,920
started this podcast

540
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:33,720
I was worried

541
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:34,200
that wonder

542
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:34,900
might seem

543
00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:35,400
kind of like

544
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:35,780
a recipe

545
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:36,820
for irrelevance

546
00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:37,860
like hope

547
00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:38,280
it is not

548
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:39,140
a very prevalent

549
00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:39,840
emotion

550
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:40,640
right now

551
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:41,320
in the zeitgeist

552
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:42,200
and I was

553
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:42,720
a little worried

554
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:43,280
that this would

555
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:43,780
come across

556
00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:45,180
as escapist

557
00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:46,400
or elitist

558
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,760
but I have

559
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:49,560
this stubborn

560
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:50,260
view that

561
00:14:50,260 --> 00:14:51,340
having a sense

562
00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:51,980
of wonder

563
00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:53,620
does matter

564
00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:54,840
not just

565
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:55,320
spiritually

566
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,360
but politically

567
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,340
morally

568
00:14:57,340 --> 00:14:58,820
and I hope

569
00:14:58,820 --> 00:14:59,300
you'd help us

570
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:00,100
think about that

571
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:01,420
I take it

572
00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:02,100
you've read

573
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:03,400
Dr. Keltner's

574
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:03,640
book

575
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:04,120
Awe

576
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:04,800
which is

577
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:05,340
basically

578
00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:06,220
another word

579
00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:06,900
for wonder

580
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:08,400
I really thought

581
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:08,700
it was going

582
00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:09,240
to be kind

583
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:09,620
of about

584
00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:10,080
aesthetic

585
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,140
epiphanies

586
00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:11,720
which I have

587
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:12,240
all the time

588
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:12,860
in the natural

589
00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:13,380
world

590
00:15:13,380 --> 00:15:15,240
but his first

591
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:15,760
category

592
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:16,440
is moral

593
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:16,920
beauty

594
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:17,740
being deeply

595
00:15:17,740 --> 00:15:18,120
moved

596
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:18,800
by people

597
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,880
doing things

598
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:20,940
exactly like

599
00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:21,380
the people

600
00:15:21,380 --> 00:15:22,040
of Minneapolis

601
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:22,680
are doing

602
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:23,460
in the streets

603
00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:24,760
to stand up

604
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:25,140
for their

605
00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:25,940
immigrant and

606
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:26,360
refugee

607
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:27,540
and brown

608
00:15:27,540 --> 00:15:28,060
and black

609
00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:28,600
neighbors

610
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:29,540
and of course

611
00:15:29,540 --> 00:15:30,020
those people

612
00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:30,420
are standing

613
00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:30,960
up for themselves

614
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:31,640
as well

615
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,300
I think

616
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:33,700
wonder

617
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:34,300
is very

618
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:34,800
woven

619
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,660
into

620
00:15:35,660 --> 00:15:37,160
our lives

621
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:37,580
in a lot

622
00:15:37,580 --> 00:15:38,080
of important

623
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:38,540
ways

624
00:15:38,540 --> 00:15:39,260
I think

625
00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:39,980
recognizing

626
00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:41,060
that even

627
00:15:41,060 --> 00:15:41,780
our species

628
00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:42,500
is small

629
00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:43,100
in the cosmic

630
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:43,960
scheme

631
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:44,680
of things

632
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,100
I think

633
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:46,580
pleasure

634
00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:47,300
and joy

635
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:48,160
are important

636
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:48,660
emotions

637
00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:49,320
for keeping

638
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,180
your bearings

639
00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:50,700
and not

640
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:51,240
becoming

641
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:51,660
grim

642
00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:52,260
from thinking

643
00:15:52,260 --> 00:15:52,980
about nothing

644
00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:54,500
but what's

645
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:55,620
bad and wrong

646
00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:56,520
and I wrote

647
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:56,820
the book

648
00:15:56,820 --> 00:15:57,620
Orwell's Roses

649
00:15:57,620 --> 00:15:58,360
because it was

650
00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:58,860
so exciting

651
00:15:58,860 --> 00:15:59,860
to recognize

652
00:15:59,860 --> 00:16:00,400
that George

653
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:00,860
Orwell

654
00:16:00,860 --> 00:16:02,140
the 20th

655
00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:02,820
century's

656
00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:03,740
most prominent

657
00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:05,000
anti-fascist

658
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:05,920
somebody who

659
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:06,840
faced unpleasant

660
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:07,420
facts

661
00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:08,420
actually took

662
00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:08,760
a bullet

663
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:09,500
through the neck

664
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:10,080
fighting

665
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,080
fascism

666
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:11,980
with a rifle

667
00:16:11,980 --> 00:16:13,420
on the front

668
00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:14,080
in Spain

669
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,440
also spent

670
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:15,740
a lot

671
00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:16,360
of time

672
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,520
cultivating

673
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,040
a garden

674
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,020
taking pleasure

675
00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:19,600
in roses

676
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,820
and the

677
00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:21,860
natural world

678
00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:24,080
and everyday

679
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:24,760
things like

680
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:25,360
a good cup

681
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:25,720
of tea

682
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:26,200
or a good

683
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,080
mug of beer

684
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:27,620
I think

685
00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:28,300
we anchor

686
00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:28,940
ourselves

687
00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:29,840
in pleasure

688
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,080
in joy

689
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,360
in friendship

690
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,240
in love

691
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,120
so yeah

692
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:34,460
I think

693
00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:34,940
wonder is

694
00:16:34,940 --> 00:16:35,440
important

695
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,280
and I think

696
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:36,840
part of what

697
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:37,760
keeps me

698
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,700
what would

699
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:40,160
you call

700
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:40,340
it

701
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:40,880
relatively

702
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:41,460
cheerful

703
00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:42,120
in the face

704
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:42,420
of all

705
00:16:42,420 --> 00:16:42,700
this

706
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:43,660
is just

707
00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:44,220
like I

708
00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:44,620
am a

709
00:16:44,620 --> 00:16:44,960
tortoise

710
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:45,220
at the

711
00:16:45,220 --> 00:16:45,580
mayfly

712
00:16:45,580 --> 00:16:46,080
party

713
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,960
with a

714
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:48,380
long

715
00:16:48,380 --> 00:16:48,920
sense

716
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,320
of time

717
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,100
and change

718
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:52,200
so I

719
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:52,640
retain

720
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:53,040
wonder

721
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:53,560
about the

722
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:53,960
miraculous

723
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:54,560
things that

724
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:54,940
happened

725
00:16:54,940 --> 00:16:55,460
and one

726
00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:55,740
of the

727
00:16:55,740 --> 00:16:56,000
great

728
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:56,560
influences

729
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:57,080
on my

730
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:57,500
life

731
00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:58,900
was the

732
00:16:58,900 --> 00:16:59,180
way

733
00:16:59,180 --> 00:16:59,660
Eastern

734
00:16:59,660 --> 00:17:00,000
Europe

735
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:00,580
liberated

736
00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:01,060
itself

737
00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:01,380
in the

738
00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:01,640
fall

739
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:02,440
of 1989

740
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:03,500
something

741
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:04,900
nobody

742
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:05,680
including

743
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:06,020
the

744
00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:06,520
Western

745
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,220
European

746
00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:08,440
or Eastern

747
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:09,040
European

748
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:09,940
regimes

749
00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:11,280
really

750
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:12,000
anticipated

751
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:12,940
how magically

752
00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:13,580
would happen

753
00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:14,400
how you

754
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:14,800
know half

755
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:15,120
a dozen

756
00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:15,600
countries

757
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:15,860
that have

758
00:17:15,860 --> 00:17:16,020
been

759
00:17:16,020 --> 00:17:16,740
totalitarian

760
00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:17,920
since the

761
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:18,500
second world

762
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:19,340
war would

763
00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:19,900
through largely

764
00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:20,500
non-violent

765
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:21,280
means change

766
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:21,740
themselves

767
00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:23,700
so you have

768
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:24,140
to trace

769
00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:24,780
the threads

770
00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:25,380
and the threads

771
00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:25,860
are long

772
00:17:25,860 --> 00:17:26,460
threads

773
00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:27,760
but when you

774
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:28,660
do you see

775
00:17:28,660 --> 00:17:29,580
the tapestry

776
00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:31,040
and it can

777
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:31,460
be quite

778
00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:31,960
exciting

779
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,340
and back

780
00:17:33,340 --> 00:17:34,380
to your

781
00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:35,140
frame fill

782
00:17:35,140 --> 00:17:35,520
you with

783
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:35,980
wonder

784
00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:36,780
and so

785
00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:37,100
I think

786
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:37,420
I go

787
00:17:37,420 --> 00:17:37,760
around

788
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,080
in a

789
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:38,260
state

790
00:17:38,260 --> 00:17:38,640
of wonder

791
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:38,980
a lot

792
00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:39,200
of the

793
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:39,560
time

794
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:40,300
well the

795
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:40,880
other thing

796
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:41,760
that I

797
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,240
hear you

798
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:43,360
pointing to

799
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:44,400
that I

800
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:44,700
think is

801
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:45,280
related to

802
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:45,540
wonder

803
00:17:45,540 --> 00:17:45,900
is

804
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:46,800
mystery

805
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,060
these moments

806
00:17:48,060 --> 00:17:48,500
where like

807
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:49,180
nobody could

808
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:49,660
have predicted

809
00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:50,180
or we

810
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:50,780
didn't know

811
00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:51,200
how this

812
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:51,800
would go

813
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,360
so it's

814
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:54,460
holding on

815
00:17:54,460 --> 00:17:54,820
to this

816
00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:55,720
potency

817
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:56,680
of the

818
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:57,300
unknown

819
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:58,660
against our

820
00:17:58,660 --> 00:17:59,560
own potency

821
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:00,260
which people

822
00:18:00,260 --> 00:18:00,940
pretend to

823
00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:01,340
have when

824
00:18:01,340 --> 00:18:01,720
they make

825
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:02,080
these

826
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,660
pseudo-authoritative

827
00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:04,520
proclamations

828
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:05,080
about what

829
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:05,520
can and

830
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:06,000
can't

831
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:06,800
will and

832
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:07,020
won't

833
00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:07,580
happen

834
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:09,380
Albert

835
00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:10,020
Einstein

836
00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:10,680
really kind

837
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:10,960
of got

838
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:11,320
stuck

839
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:11,860
after the

840
00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:12,280
theory of

841
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:12,780
relativity

842
00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:13,200
if I

843
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:13,780
remember my

844
00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:14,100
physics

845
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:14,880
history right

846
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,100
and when

847
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:16,880
quantum physics

848
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:17,580
came along

849
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:18,000
he said

850
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:18,560
God does

851
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:19,100
not play

852
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:19,580
dice

853
00:18:19,580 --> 00:18:20,560
and one

854
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:20,820
of my

855
00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:21,420
favorite

856
00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:22,640
physicists

857
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,000
Niels Bohr

858
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,820
who was

859
00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:26,280
Danish

860
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,320
part Jewish

861
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:27,900
a hero

862
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:28,240
of the

863
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:28,780
resistance

864
00:18:28,780 --> 00:18:30,340
a remarkable

865
00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:30,880
man in

866
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:31,560
many ways

867
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:31,940
with a

868
00:18:31,940 --> 00:18:32,260
kind of

869
00:18:32,260 --> 00:18:32,560
poetic

870
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:33,040
soul

871
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:33,800
said

872
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,060
it is

873
00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:35,760
not for

874
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:36,160
us to

875
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:36,700
tell God

876
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:37,100
what he

877
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:37,460
may or

878
00:18:37,460 --> 00:18:37,880
may not

879
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:38,300
do

880
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:39,460
but yeah

881
00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:39,880
I think

882
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:40,320
that there's

883
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:40,600
something

884
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,060
essentially

885
00:18:41,060 --> 00:18:41,560
mysterious

886
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:42,160
and that's

887
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:42,560
actually

888
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,300
beautiful

889
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:44,020
and that's

890
00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:45,180
also the

891
00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:45,740
terrain of

892
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:46,420
possibility

893
00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:47,460
of recognizing

894
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:48,700
we don't

895
00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:49,080
know what

896
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:49,620
will happen

897
00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:50,540
because we're

898
00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:51,340
deciding it

899
00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:51,640
in the

900
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,100
present

901
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:53,420
and I

902
00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:54,120
also thought

903
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:54,880
in 1989

904
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:55,840
Nelson Mandela

905
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:56,860
would spend

906
00:18:56,860 --> 00:18:57,260
his whole

907
00:18:57,260 --> 00:18:57,760
life in

908
00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:58,060
jail

909
00:18:58,060 --> 00:18:58,900
and I

910
00:18:58,900 --> 00:18:59,280
didn't have

911
00:18:59,280 --> 00:18:59,900
any estimate

912
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:01,180
that apartheid

913
00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:01,540
would be

914
00:19:01,540 --> 00:19:02,280
disbanded

915
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:02,840
the regime

916
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:03,600
would end

917
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:04,820
and Mandela

918
00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:05,580
rather than

919
00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:06,160
spending his

920
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:06,540
life

921
00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:07,740
you know

922
00:19:07,740 --> 00:19:08,380
on robber's

923
00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:08,700
island

924
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:09,380
would become

925
00:19:09,380 --> 00:19:09,880
president

926
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:10,480
of a

927
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:11,120
new

928
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,000
South Africa

929
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,160
and we're

930
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:13,780
close to a

931
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:14,240
cure for

932
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:14,680
AIDS

933
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,520
speaking of

934
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:16,940
who thought

935
00:19:16,940 --> 00:19:17,440
that was

936
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:17,760
going to

937
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:18,180
happen

938
00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:19,600
maybe there's

939
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:20,260
a connection

940
00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:22,220
thinking about

941
00:19:22,220 --> 00:19:22,880
that darkness

942
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:23,960
the mystery

943
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,920
that we were

944
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:25,600
alluding to

945
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:26,280
and if you

946
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:27,040
bear with me

947
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:27,440
this isn't

948
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:27,980
really well

949
00:19:27,980 --> 00:19:28,480
thought out

950
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,560
but the

951
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:30,160
new book

952
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,040
is at least

953
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,040
being talked

954
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:32,460
about as a

955
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:33,040
sequel to one

956
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:33,500
of your best

957
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:34,040
loved books

958
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:34,500
hope in the

959
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:34,840
dark

960
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,940
and that

961
00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:36,580
title to me

962
00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:37,220
always meant

963
00:19:37,220 --> 00:19:38,320
hope in

964
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,540
terrible times

965
00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:40,900
but I heard a

966
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:41,620
conversation with

967
00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:42,080
you recently

968
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:42,600
that made me

969
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,220
realize that is

970
00:19:43,220 --> 00:19:43,980
a misreading

971
00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:44,920
of what you

972
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:45,320
meant and you

973
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,100
were actually

974
00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:46,800
writing to

975
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:47,680
reframe not

976
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:48,260
only hope

977
00:19:48,260 --> 00:19:49,140
but also

978
00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:50,400
darkness

979
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,080
am I right

980
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:52,980
you are

981
00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:54,140
totally right

982
00:19:54,140 --> 00:19:55,140
and we

983
00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:55,920
use this

984
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,000
good versus

985
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:57,800
evil

986
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,240
horrible

987
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,340
binary of

988
00:20:00,340 --> 00:20:01,220
light equals

989
00:20:01,220 --> 00:20:02,140
good and

990
00:20:02,140 --> 00:20:03,220
anybody who's

991
00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:03,560
you know

992
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:04,120
picture an

993
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:04,860
interrogation

994
00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:05,620
chamber with

995
00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:06,600
the thousand

996
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:07,380
watt bulbs

997
00:20:07,380 --> 00:20:08,120
shining in

998
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:08,780
your eyes

999
00:20:08,780 --> 00:20:09,380
the prisoners

1000
00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:10,360
who aren't

1001
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:10,980
allowed any

1002
00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:11,680
darkness

1003
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:12,580
etc

1004
00:20:12,580 --> 00:20:13,620
light is not

1005
00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:14,240
all good

1006
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,580
and a

1007
00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:17,020
summer in

1008
00:20:17,020 --> 00:20:17,620
Iceland made

1009
00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:18,240
me fall in

1010
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:18,900
love with

1011
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:19,680
night in a

1012
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:20,020
new way

1013
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:21,300
the sensuality

1014
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:21,920
of the way

1015
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:22,300
your other

1016
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:23,100
senses wake

1017
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:23,640
up because

1018
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:24,180
your vision

1019
00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:24,840
doesn't work

1020
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:25,440
so well

1021
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:26,100
and now I

1022
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:26,700
crave the

1023
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:27,340
deep darkness

1024
00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:27,860
where you

1025
00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:28,940
see the

1026
00:20:28,940 --> 00:20:29,420
Milky Way

1027
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:30,080
but I also

1028
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:30,740
found the

1029
00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:32,100
equation of

1030
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:32,900
dark with

1031
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:34,080
bad things

1032
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,400
only too

1033
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,140
readily takes

1034
00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:37,220
on racial

1035
00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:38,220
overtones that

1036
00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:39,280
I am not

1037
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,360
interested in

1038
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:41,400
participating in

1039
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,680
but for me

1040
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,140
hope in the

1041
00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:43,540
dark

1042
00:20:43,540 --> 00:20:45,080
partly comes

1043
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:45,440
from a

1044
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,200
wonderful line

1045
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:46,840
of Virginia

1046
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:47,520
Wolfe's

1047
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,380
the future

1048
00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:48,980
is dark

1049
00:20:48,980 --> 00:20:49,540
which is on

1050
00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:50,060
the whole the

1051
00:20:50,060 --> 00:20:50,620
best thing it

1052
00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:51,120
can be I

1053
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:52,360
think and

1054
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:52,840
of course

1055
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:53,680
it's in her

1056
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,380
diary not

1057
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:54,840
long after

1058
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:55,280
one of her

1059
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:55,900
breakdowns

1060
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:56,280
during the

1061
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:56,780
First World

1062
00:20:56,780 --> 00:20:57,800
War not

1063
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:58,540
an easy or

1064
00:20:58,540 --> 00:20:59,160
great time

1065
00:20:59,160 --> 00:20:59,740
for her

1066
00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:01,200
but I

1067
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:01,860
feel like

1068
00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:02,600
in its

1069
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:03,380
essence

1070
00:21:03,380 --> 00:21:06,520
it invites

1071
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:06,960
us to

1072
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:07,420
know that

1073
00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:07,880
we don't

1074
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:08,260
know

1075
00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:09,380
you know

1076
00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:09,920
knowing you

1077
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:10,400
don't know

1078
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:10,900
is the real

1079
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:11,500
beginning of

1080
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:12,880
wisdom and

1081
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:13,620
we can equate

1082
00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:14,620
that unknowing

1083
00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:15,340
to darkness

1084
00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:16,840
but also see

1085
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,340
that it's

1086
00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:18,220
erotic it's

1087
00:21:18,220 --> 00:21:19,100
fruitful it's

1088
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:20,000
generative

1089
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,920
well yeah

1090
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:22,420
I'm also

1091
00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:23,200
thinking about

1092
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,640
you know

1093
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:25,560
how often

1094
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,440
experiences of

1095
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:28,460
disaster when

1096
00:21:28,460 --> 00:21:29,000
we think it's

1097
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:29,600
the worst

1098
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,920
thing possible

1099
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,600
and there's

1100
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,220
nothing to do

1101
00:21:33,220 --> 00:21:34,520
but run into

1102
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,480
it and help

1103
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:36,120
other people

1104
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:36,900
those are often

1105
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:38,060
some of the

1106
00:21:38,060 --> 00:21:38,580
most beautiful

1107
00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:40,480
experiences of

1108
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:41,360
humanity

1109
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,860
I mean like

1110
00:21:42,860 --> 00:21:43,460
you I like

1111
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:44,300
history so

1112
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:45,380
when things get

1113
00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:46,280
bad I go back

1114
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:46,920
to read about

1115
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:47,580
London during

1116
00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:48,980
the blitz I

1117
00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:49,560
just find it

1118
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:50,120
very very

1119
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,440
comforting but

1120
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:51,900
you know I

1121
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:52,400
could just as

1122
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,320
well say you

1123
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:53,880
know remember

1124
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,380
New York

1125
00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:56,760
after 9-11

1126
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,860
when I live

1127
00:21:58,860 --> 00:21:59,320
in Madison

1128
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,680
Wisconsin I

1129
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:01,200
knew people

1130
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:01,760
who packed

1131
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:02,580
their cars

1132
00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:03,900
and drove

1133
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:04,780
to New York

1134
00:22:04,780 --> 00:22:05,500
to help

1135
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:06,680
so that's

1136
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:07,380
another way of

1137
00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:07,980
thinking about

1138
00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:09,120
what shadow

1139
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:10,220
experiences bring

1140
00:22:10,220 --> 00:22:10,560
out

1141
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:11,560
you probably

1142
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:12,140
know I wrote

1143
00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:12,620
a whole book

1144
00:22:12,620 --> 00:22:13,160
that has the

1145
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,280
blitz 9-11

1146
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,960
at Hurricane

1147
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,180
Katrina and

1148
00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:17,640
some other

1149
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:18,500
disasters and

1150
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:19,120
at A Paradise

1151
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:19,840
Built in Hell

1152
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:20,360
where I was

1153
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:21,080
interested in

1154
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:21,720
the way people

1155
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,860
not just rise

1156
00:22:23,860 --> 00:22:24,600
to the occasion

1157
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,820
not just are

1158
00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:26,620
heroic and

1159
00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:27,180
generous and

1160
00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:28,080
altruistic and

1161
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,600
brave and all

1162
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,540
that good stuff

1163
00:22:30,540 --> 00:22:31,540
as they take

1164
00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:32,180
care of each

1165
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:33,700
other in an

1166
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:34,980
emergency but

1167
00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:35,260
what was

1168
00:22:35,260 --> 00:22:36,340
remarkable to

1169
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:36,860
me when I

1170
00:22:36,860 --> 00:22:37,280
wrote that

1171
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:37,820
book when I

1172
00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:38,420
read all those

1173
00:22:38,420 --> 00:22:39,000
first-hand

1174
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:39,660
accounts for

1175
00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:40,680
older disasters

1176
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:41,860
when I talked

1177
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:42,380
to people who

1178
00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:42,720
had been in

1179
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:43,520
the great Mexico

1180
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,220
city earthquake

1181
00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:45,780
of 85 in

1182
00:22:45,780 --> 00:22:46,700
Katrina in

1183
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:48,660
9-11 they

1184
00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:49,440
lit up they

1185
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:50,320
found a joy

1186
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:50,940
and a meaning

1187
00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:51,780
and a purpose

1188
00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:52,920
and a connection

1189
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,400
that was missing

1190
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,080
from everyday

1191
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,420
life in some

1192
00:22:56,420 --> 00:22:56,920
ways everyday

1193
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:57,600
life under

1194
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:58,180
capitalism

1195
00:22:58,180 --> 00:22:59,000
produces a

1196
00:22:59,000 --> 00:22:59,620
lot of

1197
00:22:59,620 --> 00:23:01,020
anomie and

1198
00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:02,860
isolation a

1199
00:23:02,860 --> 00:23:04,000
kind of lack

1200
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:04,500
of agency

1201
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:05,340
connection

1202
00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:07,160
meaning and

1203
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:07,660
in those

1204
00:23:07,660 --> 00:23:08,520
moments of

1205
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,980
disaster people

1206
00:23:09,980 --> 00:23:10,940
often find

1207
00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:11,720
them which is

1208
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:12,460
so meaningful

1209
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:13,820
so important

1210
00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:14,400
to them that

1211
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,340
even you know

1212
00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:15,780
their own

1213
00:23:15,780 --> 00:23:16,320
house has

1214
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:17,040
collapsed or

1215
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:17,760
burned down

1216
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,960
everything is

1217
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:19,780
uncertain death

1218
00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:20,500
is all around

1219
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:22,780
they often live

1220
00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:24,120
more vividly and

1221
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,000
find something

1222
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:25,940
remarkable in

1223
00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:27,420
it and again

1224
00:23:27,420 --> 00:23:28,000
it goes to

1225
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:28,920
something about

1226
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,360
this political

1227
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:31,540
crisis we are

1228
00:23:31,540 --> 00:23:32,320
not who we're

1229
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,480
told we are

1230
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:34,940
it is useful

1231
00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:36,240
for consumerism

1232
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,040
capitalism

1233
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,440
authoritarianism

1234
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:39,980
elites to say

1235
00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:40,600
that ordinary

1236
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:41,400
people are

1237
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,080
selfish greedy

1238
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,200
and cowardly

1239
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,000
and in

1240
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Minneapolis you

1241
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:46,420
know a woman

1242
00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:47,520
just got shot

1243
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,460
three times in

1244
00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:49,100
the face

1245
00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:51,240
and under that

1246
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:51,900
theory about

1247
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:52,620
cowardly and

1248
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:53,420
selfish everyone

1249
00:23:53,420 --> 00:23:54,180
should be staying

1250
00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:54,560
home for

1251
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:55,420
self-preservation

1252
00:23:55,420 --> 00:23:56,920
but the amazing

1253
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:57,580
people of

1254
00:23:57,580 --> 00:23:58,460
Minneapolis and

1255
00:23:58,460 --> 00:23:59,180
surroundings are

1256
00:23:59,180 --> 00:24:00,120
still showing up

1257
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:00,680
and a lot of

1258
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:01,200
them are not

1259
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,480
people like

1260
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:04,580
Renee Good who

1261
00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:05,120
are themselves

1262
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:06,080
under threat from

1263
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,260
ICE they're people

1264
00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:08,160
standing up for

1265
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:08,860
other people

1266
00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:09,780
we've been

1267
00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:10,260
talking about

1268
00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:10,900
other things but

1269
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:11,300
we could have

1270
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:11,740
had a whole

1271
00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:12,820
conversation about

1272
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:13,720
these versions of

1273
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:14,480
human nature

1274
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,960
and I think

1275
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:17,320
those have

1276
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,080
actually changed

1277
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:18,780
a lot in our

1278
00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:19,760
lifetime from

1279
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,620
the kind of

1280
00:24:21,620 --> 00:24:23,040
selfish individualism

1281
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:23,620
the social

1282
00:24:23,620 --> 00:24:24,900
Darwinism to

1283
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:25,680
recognizing a

1284
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,260
world that is

1285
00:24:26,260 --> 00:24:27,760
more collaborative

1286
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:28,760
symbiotic

1287
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,220
relational more

1288
00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:31,060
full of mutual

1289
00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:32,300
aid and

1290
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:33,900
connection than

1291
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:34,460
we used to

1292
00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:35,140
recognize

1293
00:24:35,140 --> 00:24:36,680
I'm talking with

1294
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:37,280
writer and

1295
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:38,160
activist Rebecca

1296
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:39,240
Solnit and

1297
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,240
so what is

1298
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,080
the future she

1299
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:41,680
thinks is being

1300
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:42,980
born right now

1301
00:24:42,980 --> 00:24:44,280
that's my next

1302
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,480
question right

1303
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,300
after this break

1304
00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:47,380
you

1305
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,280
Hey, it's Steve.

1306
00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:52,680
I want to invite you to visit our Wonder Cabinet website,

1307
00:24:53,220 --> 00:24:56,560
where you will find more information about the show and Anne and me.

1308
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,360
And I really hope you'll subscribe to our newsletter.

1309
00:24:59,860 --> 00:25:02,420
We'll tell you the story behind the name of this podcast

1310
00:25:02,420 --> 00:25:06,460
and some of the amazing guests we'll be talking with in future episodes.

1311
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,320
You can find us at wondercabinetproductions.com.

1312
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,040
And please, tell your friends about Wonder Cabinet.

1313
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,600
This is a brand new podcast, and we'd love your help in getting the word out.

1314
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:25,360
This is Wonder Cabinet, and we're talking with Rebecca Solnit about her new book,

1315
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,300
due out in March, called The Beginning Comes After the End.

1316
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:40,180
You like that quotation from Antonio Gramsci, the old world is dying and the new has not yet

1317
00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:49,040
been born, and something I've noticed, and I think you pulled this together, is the beginning

1318
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,800
of this new narrative that was coming out of the sciences. I mean, my kind of shorthand for it is

1319
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,360
Gaia 2.0, but it's, you know, the idea that the earth systems and species are all completely

1320
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:04,500
interconnected at every level, that our lives are interwoven with the lives of insects and plants

1321
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:10,300
and the microbiome. And what you do that I like so much is say, no, it's not just in the sciences.

1322
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:18,460
This is the new paradigm that is becoming. Can you say a little more about that, sketch it a little

1323
00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:24,740
bit? Yeah. I think the life sciences have been extraordinary in their transformative vision,

1324
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:33,640
recognizing that nature is far more symbiotic, interconnected, systemic than the previous

1325
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:39,580
versions. And one of the great test cases is reintroducing wolves to Yellowstone, which

1326
00:26:39,580 --> 00:26:47,300
chased elk, which kept the elk from chewing down all the saplings by the waterways, which allowed

1327
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:53,400
beavers to return and build ponds and riparian habitat to grow richer, and the whole ecology to

1328
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:59,900
get richer, which when all that happened was kind of a hot, controversial new idea in the 90s.

1329
00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:06,320
My great niece got taught it in fifth grade, because now it's just accepted how things work.

1330
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:14,200
But the sciences have really shifted at every level. You can talk about that our own body is seen as

1331
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:22,400
full of non-human DNA of all those microbes in your intestines and elsewhere necessary to your survival.

1332
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:28,140
So you're really kind of a lurching pile of plurality, not a single individual.

1333
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:35,440
You can look at maybe the most famous of all these, Suzanne Simard, and a lot of the brilliant thinkers have

1334
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:44,300
been women, recognizing that a forest is a community. And I juxtapose Margaret Thatcher's famous,

1335
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:51,080
there is no such thing as society, against Suzanne Simard, recognizing that even without human beings,

1336
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:57,000
there's society because a forest is a society. Or you can throw in Jane Goodall, who broke down the

1337
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:04,340
divide that biologists, zoologists wanted there to be between the human and the non-human.

1338
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:12,220
And so going back to that idea that culture changes long before politics does, you know,

1339
00:28:12,220 --> 00:28:18,720
So we're talking about the culture of science and this new scientific story infiltrating the culture.

1340
00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:24,600
What do you think, what kind of changes would you predict are going to come from that in other

1341
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,580
spheres, in the political sphere, for instance?

1342
00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:31,760
Well, I'm being long-winded, but something I think is essential is all these new ideas

1343
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,220
actually align really beautifully with what a lot of Indigenous people,

1344
00:28:36,220 --> 00:28:43,880
certainly many that we know in North America have been telling us, which is seeing a world of deep

1345
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:51,300
relationship and interconnection is true and necessary and important for acting meaningfully

1346
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:59,840
and sustainably in the world. And so I find it also very exciting that these new scientific ideas

1347
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,240
actually line up with the oldest ideas.

1348
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:10,100
Wow. So maybe there's a future in which Western industrialized capitalism was a blip.

1349
00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:16,160
That's something I propose in the book because, you know, we grew up with the idea that sort of

1350
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:26,080
Eurocentric, industrialized, capitalist culture was the true, right, smart, white guy way to do everything.

1351
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:34,620
And now I think we're going to look at it as kind of a detour, a certain part of humanity made from

1352
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:42,020
the really old ways and whilst others never forgot them, never stopped practicing them.

1353
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:47,340
It's so much fun to talk about these big sweeping ideas with you, but I'm curious about

1354
00:29:47,340 --> 00:29:54,340
you and your own personal experience. You know, you've written about being raised in difficult

1355
00:29:54,340 --> 00:30:00,500
circumstances. You've said you had a kind of inside out childhood in the sense that outdoors was safer

1356
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:08,000
than inside your home. What would you say are the experiences that pulled you outside that small self

1357
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,420
and into wonder or mystery or hope?

1358
00:30:13,340 --> 00:30:17,840
Well, in many ways, I'm living a life better than anybody told me I was ever going to have.

1359
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,080
Lots of different people told me to have very low expectations for myself and there were low

1360
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,980
expectations for girls. You know, I have more friends and better friends and this writing thing

1361
00:30:29,980 --> 00:30:34,460
has turned out pretty well for me, which also lots of people told me was not really going to work out

1362
00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:40,640
for me. And I live in a world that's just a much better world to be a woman in. Marriage and children

1363
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:47,060
is not the only form of relationality or love out there. I've been hugely shaped by growing up really

1364
00:30:47,060 --> 00:30:55,700
since I was 18 in San Francisco, surrounded by gay men and queer culture. And, you know, a lot of it,

1365
00:30:55,820 --> 00:31:01,420
I think, is intellectual excitement and adventure. I was part of the Western Shoshone Defense Project.

1366
00:31:02,060 --> 00:31:09,220
I've slept on the sands of the Arctic Ocean. I floated down rivers. You know, I've gotten to see

1367
00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:15,760
transformation itself. And that's what I think the long view lets you see. You can see change.

1368
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:22,600
And to see something like the arrival of Buddhism in the West and its transformative possibility is

1369
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:29,920
so exciting. And so the personal and the public are not that separate for me. But even as a kid,

1370
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:36,800
you know, I had a kind of bleak childhood in terms of violence and a pretty cold home, etc. But I also

1371
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:43,300
was in love with books and stories on the natural world around me. And I took refuge in them. And I'm also

1372
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:48,940
an ex-punk rocker, which was very helpful in that difficult youth of mine. And there's a certain

1373
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:55,300
never surrender defiance about that. Our enemies would love us to surrender. They'd love us to say

1374
00:31:55,300 --> 00:32:00,760
we have no power and they won and we're giving up. And why the hell would I ever give them the

1375
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:07,520
satisfaction, even if I thought it was true? And it's not true. So if you can't be an angel of hope,

1376
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,760
just be a punk rocker. And actually, I think there's a great mashup of that in hope punk right

1377
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:13,160
now.

1378
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,260
Oh, I don't even know about hope punk.

1379
00:32:15,620 --> 00:32:21,240
Oh, yeah. There's this great hope punk thing, which I think is about being hopeful without being

1380
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,160
sappy, wishy-washy.

1381
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:24,520
Oh, I love it.

1382
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,760
Being fiercely hopeful, defiantly hopeful, hopeful with an attitude.

1383
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,080
That also sounds very much like you.

1384
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,320
Yeah. And here I sit before you, not that the listeners will see me. I've been joking lately

1385
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:42,200
that I've made a graceful transition from punk rock black to Buddhist black with a slight

1386
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,680
sprinkling of Sicilian Widow. And yeah, no, punk rock was huge for me too.

1387
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,740
Did you have a favorite song or favorite band?

1388
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:57,200
I didn't really like Black Flag because all these jock-like Southern California hardcore bands

1389
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:04,440
came in. And for all us nerdy people, suddenly what had been slam dancing became thrash and

1390
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:11,000
the mosh pit and it became too violent for scrawny people like me. But I will say Black Flags,

1391
00:33:11,140 --> 00:33:13,480
Rise Above is one of the great anthems.

1392
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,240
What do you listen to today?

1393
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,720
Things with cellos in them.

1394
00:33:20,380 --> 00:33:25,000
Music played on instruments made by my friend Hans Johansson. He's a master

1395
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:31,780
instrument maker in Reykjavik. He just posted a video of somebody playing 50 minutes of music

1396
00:33:31,780 --> 00:33:37,480
in a cathedral on one of his violins. And I listen to lots of different things. I still

1397
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:43,660
love roots and country music and Emmylou Harris and Patti Smith and this and that. It's fairly random.

1398
00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:47,400
Okay. So I've got just two last questions. I know I'm keeping you.

1399
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:48,540
No worries.

1400
00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:55,020
So one is, we've been talking about this long view that we often don't see because we're so

1401
00:33:55,020 --> 00:34:01,700
mired in the moment. Can you paint a long view picture of the future? Doesn't mean it's going

1402
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:06,420
to happen, but you know, there's a lot of value in imagining future possibilities.

1403
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,360
I actually, I can't because I really don't do that. But something I'm really excited about

1404
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:20,960
is Afrofuturism, Latino Futurism, Indigenous Futurism. There's a new kind of utopianism that's

1405
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,720
not everything will be hunky-dory and all our problems will be over and we'll arrive in some

1406
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:32,500
sort of future so perfect that we'll just have to impose authoritarianism to maintain it in exactly

1407
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:39,320
that way forever, which is what utopias often look like from Thomas More's Utopia on. But what they

1408
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:46,120
see, and I think also Corey, doctor of science fiction, sees this, well, we could solve a lot

1409
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,160
of the problems we have in the present or move beyond a lot of the problems we have in the present

1410
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,700
and then we'll have new and interesting problems. We will always be in some degree in struggle. We

1411
00:34:55,700 --> 00:35:02,920
will always be in problems. But no, I think there's so many different possible futures and my version

1412
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:08,540
of imagining one would make me feel like I had dismissed all the others as though I knew which

1413
00:35:08,540 --> 00:35:14,140
seeds we planted would bear fruit. And, you know, we just have to keep planting seeds and know that

1414
00:35:14,140 --> 00:35:19,820
we don't know which ones will bear fruit, who will harvest them, and what they'll do with that fruit.

1415
00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:27,960
More fun to see what's going to come out of that fertile, rich darkness. So, last question. If we

1416
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,960
were going to create a new wonder cabinet for the modern age and you could put anything in it,

1417
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,560
what would you like to add to it?

1418
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:40,160
The videotape of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's expression when she realized she won the primary,

1419
00:35:40,940 --> 00:35:47,500
a chunk of the Berlin Wall, maybe something about Nelson Mandela's presidential election,

1420
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,020
the marriage equality decision in the Supreme Court in 2015.

1421
00:35:53,020 --> 00:35:58,180
Oh my God, we're going to give you your own drawer. It's the Rebecca Solomon drawer you could

1422
00:35:58,180 --> 00:35:58,640
pull out.

1423
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:05,140
Yeah. Here's something that would be wonderful in a wonder cabinet. I only realized writing for

1424
00:36:05,140 --> 00:36:12,980
World AIDS Day that not only was Rosa Parks the instigator of the Montgomery bus boycott that got

1425
00:36:12,980 --> 00:36:19,100
the civil rights movement going, but she was a brilliant seamstress and she actually sewed squares

1426
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:26,520
for the AIDS quilt. And I loved seeing that her commitment to liberation didn't stop with Black

1427
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:33,340
liberation or racial justice. That as an older woman in the 80s or the 90s who had sewn quilts for

1428
00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:40,060
people she cared about as well as sewing for a living when she was younger, she made patches for

1429
00:36:40,060 --> 00:36:48,180
people who died of AIDS for the AIDS quilt. That single act of care, of love, of craft connected to

1430
00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:54,200
very different movements in ways I hadn't imagined. Let's talk about indirect consequences.

1431
00:36:55,540 --> 00:36:56,120
Wow. Yeah.

1432
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,040
Oh, thank you so much. This was a beautiful conversation. It was a pleasure talking with you.

1433
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:08,280
The same. Hope, courage, generosity are contagious. And I love that you've decided to make wonder

1434
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,000
contagious, the best contagions, even as we face the worst.

1435
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:19,940
That's Rebecca Solnit, writer, activist, and voice of conscience. She's written more than 20 books and

1436
00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:26,620
she has a new one due out in March called The Beginning Comes After the End. I'm Anne Strangehamps.

1437
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,740
And I'm Steve Paulson. On our next episode, I'll talk with novelist George Saunders about creating

1438
00:37:31,740 --> 00:37:37,860
imaginative worlds filled with ghosts and angels and why dying may be the ultimate experience of wonder.

1439
00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:44,080
Thanks to our audio engineer, Steve Gotcher, and to digital producer, Mark Rickers. I hope you'll

1440
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:49,440
join Wonder Cabinet on your podcast platform of choice and sign up for the newsletter so you never

1441
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:56,260
miss an episode. You'll find it all at wondercabinetproductions.com. Until next time.