207_Boomers
[00:00:00] Kathryn: This is, this is the worst topic for us to be rolling on on a day when you and I are both in terrible moods about the podcast of like, today we're gonna talk about why boomers don't suck. Honestly, digging deep here. Really 
[00:00:12] Robin: 
[00:00:12] Kathryn: Hello and welcome to Optimist Economy. I'm Kathryn Anne Edwards, economist.
[00:00:15] Robin: I'm editor Robin Rousey
[00:00:17] Kathryn: On this show, we believe the US economy can be better and we talk about how to get there one problem and solution at a time.
[00:00:23] Kathryn: Sorry, I'm already giggling 'cause I'm like, I guess that means the problem for episode today is baby boomers.
[00:00:28] Robin: baby boomers. Yeah, it could be. The problem is whiny Millennials who complain about baby boomers
[00:00:36] Kathryn: Oh God.
[00:00:38] Robin: steep.
[00:00:39] Kathryn: Cuts deep. Well, you know what, we're gonna talk about boomers and generations, so, but first announcements
[00:00:47] Announcements
[00:00:47] Robin: the only announcement I have is to remind people that it helps us out a lot if you rate the show on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you listen to the podcast on, um, if you wanna leave us a written review, that's also super. But, yeah, that's it.
[00:01:02] Kathryn: Excellent. We also, if the review is really funny, not that's the only reason why, like you should tell us genuinely how we're doing, but if the review is funny, we do love reading them on the show. Um, yeah, remember Andy five, all, all the 
[00:01:17] Robin: what's his name? Andy? Five.
[00:01:18] Kathryn: Johnny five.
[00:01:19] Robin: Johnny. Five.
[00:01:20] Kathryn: Johnny five, who all of the compliments about how like you guys are trying so hard. I have them filed away as the bless her heart.
[00:01:30] Robin: you, you have a file of them. Nice.
[00:01:34] Retcon
[00:01:34] Kathryn: after announcements, we move into retcon for retroactive continuity, where we reflect and discuss and correct things that we said in the past episodes. Robin, do you have a rec con?
[00:01:46] Robin: I do. Um, we were talking about the Trump accounts last week, and I said in passing that Michael Dell was going to give money out to all kids. And I went to check that Michael Dell has committed to giving out $6.25 billion to 25 million kids under the age of 10. If their family income is under $150,000, it's $250 that he would put into their Trump account.
[00:02:10] Robin: so it, it includes a lot of kids who would not get that a thousand dollars in the Trump account pilot program. I think he's trying to create an incentive for people to create accounts who aren't part of that pilot.
[00:02:23] Kathryn: I mean, good on 'em.
[00:02:25] Robin: Yeah.
[00:02:25] Kathryn: I would prefer it if it came from the federal government and just automatically enrolled everyone. But I do like the idea of directly transferring wealth outside of, the very wealthy. So good on you, Michael Dell.
[00:02:37] Robin: Yeah, I, I just wanted to make sure I was clear that it wasn't just young kids and it wasn't kids up to age 18 who can in fact open the accounts. It's kids under 10, and if their family income is under $150,000.
[00:02:49] Kathryn: I have one retcon about housing, which I like, don't even wanna talk about anymore. 
[00:02:56] Kathryn: more about housing.
[00:02:57] Kathryn: more about housing. Um, yeah, I don't know how to say this except for that. I think maybe there are some people who listen to the show who really need to hear me say I'm wrong. That supply matters more than income and supply is really important, and supply will fix things.
[00:03:17] Kathryn: I don't know what else to do to get people to stop calling me a stupid bitch in my dms for pointing out that building a condo tower in every city in America is not going to make housing affordable.
[00:04:00] Robin: Well, it reminds me a lot of what you were saying about like, people got supply and demand. Like that's all they understand about economic forces like we talked about this in relationship to power, but it's also true in relationship to like these levels of income and it's not a one and done solution. I mean, I guess if you tripled the amount of housing and the population didn't grow,
[00:04:22] Kathryn: yeah. I mean, but what predicts home prices in a locality is wealth. It is the top tail of the income distribution that predicts housing prices really, really well. And supply comes second. And there's lots of things we can do to make supply better or to make supply more ample, but it's not clear that it would fix that problem.
[00:04:45] Kathryn: Now, I did talk to someone at a conference who had I went to in DC last week who was very kind, who's worked a lot on housing, who said that whenever you talk about how housing, you do have to carve out the California coastal counties, that they are different. 
[00:04:57] Kathryn: And California suffers from both the income problems and the supply problems in deep extremes, home to more billionaires than any other place on earth.
[00:05:06] Robin: And it also suffers from, not suffers from, but has other constraints on building, for instance, lack of water in places. I was just up in near San Luis Obispo and, and they can't build houses there unless they find a way to offset the water use because they don't, they don't have enough, groundwater.
[00:05:27] Kathryn: I was too cavalier about abundance and supply and there are lots of really good things that supply and abundance can do. I just, yeah. I, I, I, um, fuck that. I'm not sorry. It's not supply. I'm going back to what I said before. I, I just worry that this supply train is like rolling on through the station and like everyone's like jumping on of like, we just need to build, we just need to build
[00:05:55] Robin: I know, and we just need to slash regulations and we just need to, we need to fix zoning. Those things can be true. They still may not be adequate. An adequate solution.
[00:06:04] Kathryn Like, everything you think about housing being built and where it should be built is totally right. People who don't like housing being built are often insecure homeowners who are terrified of their property going down in price, which a lot of people went through in the financial crisis and great recession, and they're afraid of losing an investment in their home, and they're so tied to the money that they need to get outta their home, that they're antagonistic to anything that could possibly change.
[00:06:28] Kathryn: All of those things can be true, but it is not clear that that is the salvation for affordable housing, especially if a lot of affordability is predicted by the preponderance of very rich people. 
[00:06:39] Kathryn: so we'll never talk about housing again. This is my last retcon. We're never talking about housing.
[00:07:20] Robin: it took me a long time to realize that it's a rare thing that you want to hear from people who disagree with you, even if it makes your brain like, you know, crackle a little bit while you do it. And it's hard. I mean, it's, it's hard for me to read the Wall Street Journal opinion page,
[00:07:38] Kathryn: You actually read the opinion page. I don't read the opinion page. I, I even like skip over it so I don't look at the headlines.
[00:07:44] Robin: not every day. and not every article, and I read some of the financial columnists and the economics columnists at the Wall Street Journal, um, some of whom I think are very good, right.
[00:07:53] Robin: I mean, I have little patience for things that are badly done, badly argued, but I like to know how other people think. I may or may not agree with them. Maybe it's just 'cause I don't really have super strong opinions on a lot of things. And so I'm curious what other people think. But it's, it's one of the things that made being an op-ed editor really fun, right?
[00:08:15] Kathryn: It's, I mean, the housing one's an interesting one because it's agreeing on the problem, but not necessarily agreeing on the solution. but then when you don't agree on solution, people think that you're minimizing the problem, like you don't care about the problem. And it's not, it's not the same. Like I care a lot about this problem, 
[00:08:32] Kathryn: which is why I don't wanna put all of our eggs in the just build with fewer restrictions, basket. By not liking their solution, I've made it seem like  I don't care about the problem or that like their problem doesn't exist. 
[00:09:05] Robin: I think that that's why the response was so negativeYeah.
[00:09:08] Robin: people don't examine their own thoughts before they fire off an internet comment, I think. 
[00:09:13] Kathryn: well, I guess maybe my retcon would then just be like, I see you frustrated by arbitrary housing rules that you think aren't necessary. I see you frustrated that there are homeowners in your town who would rather set themselves on fire than allow accessory dwelling units, or that you just need a little bit of density in your neighborhoods so that other people get to go to schools.
[00:09:36] Kathryn: I see you and I see that and I respect it and it is a problem and it is frustrating and it has consequences and we could build housing really differently in this country. 
[00:09:46] Kathryn: I hope you will see me when I say that. there is an argument that has relatively stable ground, that the supply deficit of housing is overblown. It has motivations in being overblown and that it is a distraction from the degree to which income inequality is warping our housing market in a way that leaves half of America behind.
[00:10:28] Kathryn: Alright. Terms and conditions. Do you have anything?
[00:10:46] Terms
[00:10:46] Robin: I don't, do you?
[00:10:48] Kathryn: I had, so I wanted to go back to Calvin Ball.
[00:10:54] Robin: Yeah. I see that. 
[00:10:56] Robin: Yeah. 
[00:10:56] Robin: I do still love Calvin Ball as
[00:10:58] Kathryn: Yeah, it was a term we brought up a few episodes ago, Calvin Ball, where you change the rules every 
[00:11:03] Kathryn: time you play.
[00:11:05] Kathryn: So I think Calvin Ball is a great way to think about where did generations in the United States come from as well as their moniker. It's Calvin Ball. You change the rule with every generation.
[00:11:17] Kathryn: It's pretty incredible. So Calvin Ball, we're just doing a refresh before we get to our centerpiece, which we will also stop in hear across promo, and then we'll get to the big Pilcrow.
[00:11:29] MR // CENTERPIECE
[00:11:29] Robin: So for our main Pilcrow today, we're gonna talk about boomers and why people are so angry at boomers,
[00:11:35] Kathryn: Answering the basic question, did boomers ruin everything?
[00:11:40] Robin: particularly the economy.
[00:11:44] Kathryn: Yeah. They've decided to vote all the economic resources we have into making more World War II movies and documentaries about Woodstock, and that's gonna become a third of our economy from here on out.
[00:11:59] Kathryn: Which
[00:12:00] Robin: All right. Why? Why did you, 
[00:12:01] Kathryn: Why did I wanna do this?
[00:12:03] Robin: Yeah.
[00:12:04] Kathryn: Yeah. All right. One of the most formative books I have ever read in my entire adult life is this book called, I Have It Here, myth in the Greatest Generation 
[00:12:17] Robin: Oh yes. You've talked about this book before.
[00:12:20] Kathryn: Uhhuh. 
[00:12:21] Kathryn: I don't remember who recommended it to me. I don't remember how I heard about it. I just know that I ordered this book and it is a social history of Americans during World War ii, andI mean, it is just jaw dropping. I think the myth that you've heard of the greatest generation of the people who, like, they defeated fascism, they made the world safe, and then they went home and they had nuclear families. And they didn't get divorced and they all worked. Like it's, it's this myth of like the,
[00:12:50] Robin: But not the women. The women didn't work.
[00:12:52] Kathryn: the women didn't work, obviously, because they knew that staying home with their children was better and they had 2.5 of them. Like, it's, it's very much this. Like, you might not have ever had it written in a narrative that was three sentences long, but you know, it, you know, that Americans used to be better and now they're not.
[00:13:08] Kathryn: That we used to be better at family. We used to be better at working. We used to care more about our country. And this book just, I wouldn't say succinctly, I wouldn't say it's like the most beautiful writing I've ever written, but it just says like, this is a complete mythology 
[00:13:24] Robin: Of course it is.
[00:13:25] Kathryn: if we are myth making from this greatest generation and making them into heroes that they weren't, we are making boomers into villains that they're not.
[00:13:35] Robin: Oh
[00:13:37] Kathryn: That was why I wanted to do this episode because there is someone who benefits from you deciding that someone else is to blame.
[00:13:44] Greatest Gen Myths
[00:13:44] Robin: Yeah, for sure. That's always the case. so are you gonna tell us a little more about the myth of the greatest generation 
[00:13:50] Kathryn: So yeah, they were named the Greatest Generation when almost all of them were dead in the nineties when Tom 
[00:13:55] Kathryn: Broka wrote a book 
[00:13:55] Kathryn: about them. Yeah.
[00:13:57] Kathryn: But before that, they were not called the Greatest Generation. So, one highest divorce rates we'll ever have, 1945 and 1946.
[00:14:05] Robin: come back from the war.
[00:14:06] Kathryn: It just massive numbers. Divorce, two lots of child abandonment and lots of abortion during the war. And there's a, quote in here about how the public, health commissioner for the city of San Francisco, which is a port, city, he, he says that there are years in the war in which he thinks there are more abortions than live births in the city of San Francisco. There's rampant cheating on partners. This is where dear John letters come from. There's a trade in amongst soldiers in World War II to have pictures of naked women, so that if you, if you do get a dear John letter, you have smut to send back to your soon to be ex-wife or girlfriend. Um, incredibly high rates of desertion.
[00:14:46] Robin: you mean desertion in the military?
[00:14:48] Kathryn: Desertion in the military. I mean, like people in the military just deserting really high rates. and there's also like they do surveys of troops of like, why are you here? And the most common response was they were drafted. 
[00:15:00] Kathryn: And then we get into like the race stuff of just how deeply racist this generation was. And they bring up things like at a production site in Detroit where they're making, it might have been an airplane facility, I don't remember.
[00:15:15] Kathryn: anyway, a black guy got a promotion and like 15,000 white people walked off the job. And there's race riots at this time. Like It's a very ugly version of a time that we associate a lot of good things with, yeah, these were just people a lot of them were racist. they weren't perfect and he doesn't say it to like criminalize them. He's just like, you don't hear about this part. Like, we've completely dehumanized these people into these saints to which we aspire and we we're never that. So who gains from you thinking that you're a failure relative to people who never existed?
[00:15:47] Kathryn: Obviously I'm accepting everyone's grandpa who is clearly better. But, um, those were the hits, the highlights of myth and the Greatest Generation.
[00:15:55] Robin: Okay, so, so the, the boomers their kids, right? 
[00:16:01] Kathryn: Yes. 
[00:16:02] Generational titles = calvinball
[00:16:02] Kathryn: So Calvin Ball, I brought this up in terms and conditions. The idea that every time you play the game, you make a new rule. That is definitely the case with generational titles. So there is only one generation that has a name in the United States according to the Census Bureau and the Population Reference Bureau. And that is the baby boom, 1946, 1964, 18 years of extremely elevated birth rates.
[00:16:28] Robin: Right.
[00:16:29] Kathryn: Goes all the way to 1964. So it's not just they had kids the year they came home from the war. this is a longer period. After that, everything else is invented by either authors, columnists, or advertisers. And they're invented for the purpose of storytelling.
[00:16:45] Kathryn: So I think I wanted to make sure to give a shout out to those names that didn't make it. So you are a Gen
[00:16:54] Kathryn: Xer. 
[00:16:55] Robin: am, I am a Gen Xer.
[00:16:56] Kathryn: Okay. But you were also baby bust 
[00:17:00] Robin: Sure. 
[00:17:01] Kathryn: This one's my favorite, the 20 nothings. Grunge kids. And the 13th Gen before you became Gen X?
[00:17:09] Robin: I remember 13th Gen. 
[00:17:11] Robin: it's funny that Gen X is the one that stuck.
[00:17:13] Kathryn: Which one do you prefer?
[00:17:15] Robin: I don't know. I mean, I remember the 20 something cover of Time Magazine came out when I was in college and it was,just like, everybody of course gets a little annoyed 'cause it was a play on 30 something, the TV show.
[00:17:29] Robin: and you know, as you say, they're invented , but it did sort of, I do remember thinking that it didn't capture my experience personally, but it did capture the experience of a lot of people my age, which was their parents got divorced, they were latchkey kids. but again, it's not, you know, none of those things were universal.
[00:17:47] Robin: But it, it, you know, per our earlier conversation about feeling seen or not, I think in a way it did make me, it did make me feel seen at that when I was 21 or 22. I do say Gen X, so I guess that's the one I prefer.
[00:18:03] Kathryn: I feel like baby bust is quite harsh. 
[00:18:06] Robin: Yeah. I mean it, but it really was, it was like a big drop off in, um, population size. And we are, you know, we suffer politically for it.
[00:18:15] Kathryn: but consequences of that, y'all would've been busters. It would've been boomers and Busters. I think Busters is actually like you could, there's some power there to Busters. Yeah. I am a millennial 1985, so no matter the definition of millennial I'm in it, we were Gen X two, gen Y,
[00:18:36] Robin: YI remember
[00:18:37] Kathryn: echo boomers, digital natives,
[00:18:42] Robin: Yeah.
[00:18:42] Kathryn: the net generation nex instead of Xers we're nex and, uh, the trophy kids.
[00:18:50] Robin: Ooh,
[00:18:51] Kathryn: Yeah. Gen Z has also been called iGen,
[00:18:58] Robin: Yeah.
[00:18:59] Kathryn: MultiGen. Homeland Gen.
[00:19:02] Robin: Homeland Jen, because they were born after the creation of Homeland Security
[00:19:06] Kathryn: they were all just huge clear Danes fans.
[00:19:08] Robin: Yeah. Seriously,
[00:19:10] Kathryn: I think I would've liked being either Echoes or Trophies, or Xers or Xers Nex. I mean, 'cause trophy kids is a comment on both our parenting and ourselves and that, like, we got lots of trophies, but then our parents, gave us 
[00:19:26] Robin: oh, oh, I was thinking like trophies, like being tr trophy wives, you know, like
[00:19:32] Kathryn: No, but I think there's that too of like how much emphasis is put into child rearing and like the pressure on kids. And
[00:19:39] Robin: Hmm.
[00:19:40] Kathryn: anyway, I, I don't love millennial because I really struggle to spell it
[00:19:45] Robin: Yeah. how many Ns, how many Ls? Yeah, I know. Yeah.
[00:19:49] Kathryn: It's not just, doesn't come naturally to me. 
[00:19:51] Robin: It doesn't, it doesn't roll off the tongue. So that was my, I wanna do a little bit of Calvin Ball on. Generations are not a thing. Someone makes them up for advertising purposes,
[00:19:59] Kathryn: I mean, I read a really interesting article from the Population Reference Bureau about, 
[00:20:05] Kathryn: you know, the reason why we have these generations is to help with storytelling.
[00:20:09] Robin: Yeah.
[00:20:10] Kathryn: It's to give people an identity and to give an identity to a set of people whose experiences might be different as a way to really foster and catalyze storytelling. But I think that there's an aspect to which, like, the story is wrong and, and when you're young, right? You just like, let me count the ways of like, millennials were mischaracterized in my youth.
[00:20:32] Kathryn: Um, 
[00:20:33] Kathryn: But I think that there is a degree to which we don't do as much like, and what did we get wrong about the boomers? 
[00:20:38] Kathryn: and so I wanted to, I wanted to talk about that because I think the boomers are presented, uh, with what's wrong with the economy.
[00:20:46] Robin: For sure. And it's, you know, it's interesting 'cause I don't, I feel like a lot of that conversation, like I, I went back to read a bunch of articles, you know, did Boomers ruin everything? Did boomers ruin the economy? a lot of them from boomers,
[00:21:00] Kathryn: Yes, there was one in the Wall Street Journal that was like, congratulations, boomers. You own America now.
[00:21:06] Robin: Yeah. Robert Rech did a, a whole riff about boomers and I take a lot of their point, but a lot of the anger really does seem to be millennials angry at boomers? At least recently. And I think, not that I wanna bring it up, but I think a lot of it has to do with housing.
[00:21:25] Boomers and housing
[00:21:25] Kathryn: Oh, come on. Nope, we're not doing it. Talk about something else. 
[00:21:27] Robin: Um, but anyway, somebody wrote, somebody wrote this, which is like the dynamic of, Boomers waiting for millennials to say, you were right. And, the converse waiting for you to, to say you're sorry.
[00:21:38] Robin: Right. Like, like there's a parent child generational thing that's going on there with, this argument to which the Xers just kind of stand back, put up her hands and go, okay, you guys have it out. Have 
[00:21:49] Kathryn: there's a great, there's a great SNL skit about this, where they make fun of all the generations and the host says, well, I'm an Xer. We just sit back and watch it burn,
[00:21:58] Robin: Yeah, exactly.
[00:22:01] Kathryn: Fade into the background and watch it all come down. Um, so the basic premise of the boomers ate the economy and there's no more for the rest of us, I think has a few features. Um, one, they're big and bad.
[00:22:13] Robin: They're 
[00:22:14] Robin: big. 
[00:22:14] Kathryn: they're big. Uh, technically millennials are bigger now 'cause enough of them have died.
[00:22:18] Kathryn: 
[00:22:18] Robin: yeah, I, I saw that they crossed the over boomers, it was just like a few years ago. Right? 
[00:22:22] Kathryn: Yeah. Very recent, but now millennials are the largest living generation to the extent that you think that they're a real thing. And also, what year did they end that CLA 
[00:22:29] Robin: It's true. You can make them bigger or smaller
[00:22:31] Kathryn: Uhhuh? I can actually make millennials real big. It's everyone born after 1965. Um, so, uh, the boomers, they're big, they're bad.
[00:22:40] Kathryn: They came of age in the late seventies, early eighties when the US was going through a rough economy. But they got houses for cheap and dealt with really high interest rates, but then held onto those houses and now they're all worth millions. They were the first to get exposure to 4 0 1 Ks and they rode the market, to wealth and retirement.
[00:23:05] Kathryn: They, benefited from a generous welfare state that they then dismantled in their wake. They benefited from a progressive tax system that they also dismantled in their wake, to give a lot of tax cuts as they hit their prime voting years. basically the Boomer story is they're gonna benefit from government investment when they're young and take it away from people as they get old and rich. And that is why boomers have ruined the economy.
[00:23:31] Robin: Yeah, the only thing that I think I would add that you missed is the debt. all of this was financed, uh, with the national debt.
[00:23:38] Kathryn: Right. 
[00:23:39] Robin: so they, the millennials are squeezed out of making any policy decisions now because all the money can only go to, social security, Medicare, interest on the national debt and the US military.
[00:23:55] Kathryn: Yeah. Yeah. the spending on the elderly is an interesting one too, because for me there's this, this like, who gains from making boomers the bad guys? why do we have to make boomers into bad economic actors? So we'll care less if we cut social security. I mean, I think, I think that's like slightly conspiratorial, but the link to, they have so much money and the economy favored them and also they get social security and Medicare is great, like first level, like foundation building for, we shouldn't have social security 
[00:24:25] Robin: Oh 
[00:24:25] laying groundwork to axe SS
[00:24:30] Robin: yeah, yeah, No, the Wall Street Journal, op-ed. I dunno if it's the same one, but it did exactly that. it started at, all the things that they voted for and you think that it's going on this direction of like, we need to help millennials. And then it's just be like, we need to cut social security.
[00:24:41] Kathryn: Yeah. So the answer here is to not have social security or Medicare because old people are mean and they had enough money on their own. 
[00:24:48] Robin: right.
[00:24:48] Kathryn: I think the first things to say about this characterization, that I, I think have to be said out loud is that like you would not know from what we just said, that there are black boomers. That their economic trajectory is incredibly different from their rich, white brethren.
[00:25:03] Kathryn: Um, I think that you also wouldn't know that there are poor people who are boomers, boomers, that don't own houses, that don't have retirement accounts, who suffered from things like their pension was taken away. They never had access to a 401k, and then their job was, you 
[00:25:18] Kathryn: know, shipped overseas by the time they were 50.
[00:25:22] Robin: Yeah. 
[00:25:22] Kathryn: and then a lot of the reason why you don't hear about them is 'cause a lot of them are already dead. I think we, we have picked a story and we have erased the people who don't fit in it. And that is problem one is that you erase vulnerability, you erase diversity, and you erase the economic failings of a generation. Problem one.
[00:25:40] Robin: Well erase the people for whom that economy failed,
[00:25:43] Kathryn: Yes. You, erase the people
[00:25:45] Robin: right. I mean, Like there is a huge amount of wealth being held by, the elderly in this country right now. And they need it, right? They, they need it. They save for it. It needs to support them in their retirement. That's, that's what we told them to do, 
[00:26:04] Lifecycle savings
[00:26:04] Kathryn: Yeah. The, the economic term behind this is called lifecycle savings, and the idea is that you save up money while you work to dis save. We actually call it diss saving when you, um, I know it's kind of a fun, I mean, in our context it sounds dry. Not, we don't spend, we diss save. I don't know about y'all being spendy this weekend. I've been dissing this weekend. But we, you know, you basically, the, the wealthiest you are in your life is on the day you retire. And you have at that point accumulated wealth and accumulated savings so that you can then draw that down and diss save until you die. And the idea of a lifecycle cycle savings is that all of the wealth that you build up is then depleted.
[00:26:48] Robin: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:49] Kathryn: So there are economists who have tried to look at wealth assets savings in the US and determine how much of it is lifecycle savings versus like, inherited accumulated wealth.
[00:27:01] Robin: 
[00:27:01] Robin: and what did, do you know what they find?
[00:27:03] Kathryn: Yeah, it depends on who looks at it and when. Um, but the, the general consensus, uh, I'm like afraid to say that now. Um, yeah, I think it's mostly lifecycle. Up until this point, it's, it's, I mean, there are very wealthy people who have handed down dynastic wealth, but there's not a hundred million of them. I mean, there, I think there, I think there were 80 million boomers.
[00:27:28] Kathryn: How many baby boomers were there? Okay. 76 million people
[00:27:37] Robin: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:39] Kathryn: saving for retirement to the degree that they can, and some of them being quite successful at it explains more of the wealth than just dynastic wealth.
[00:27:50] Kathryn: Like there are Bezos and Musk and Gateses and Dells of the world. There, there are those people, there are more billionaires now than there ever have been, but the, you know, 70 plus million people saving for retirement is also a lot of money. And so the idea is that a lot of the wealth has been lifecycle.
[00:28:12] Kathryn: So the reason why the Wall Street Journal says that they own the America now is because they're, a lot of them are right at the peak of their wealth because this is because they're either retiring or they have retired. For current reference, it's 2026. So the oldest boomer is 80 and the youngest boomer is 62. 
[00:28:31] Kathryn: so you, you are getting a lot of people who are right at their wealth
[00:28:34] Robin: Yeah, they're right. Their peak, their their peak, financially of contributing and not dis spending,
[00:28:41] Kathryn: to saving,
[00:28:42] Robin: I'm sorry, dis saving.
[00:28:44] Kathryn: dis spending is when you save. Come on Robin. Economics is pretty simple.
[00:28:51] Robin: Right, right. Sorry. Um, so anyway, we would want, we want them to have this money. But I do get, I get the feeling that people are mad, that they're living long and spending it all and not spreading it around. I read this whole article about, you know, inheritance and that, that, you know, there new ti the new attitude, and I don't think that it's new. The new attitude among boomers is spend it before you die.
[00:29:20] Robin: Right? you've earned this money. Enjoy it. And that of course, again, in this like broad paintbrush with which generations get painted, it's an extension of them being the me generation.
[00:29:30] Robin: Right. Which was the other, selfish and self-involved and all about, live for the moment, don't plan ahead, which of course if they weren't planning ahead, they wouldn't have 80% of the wealth,
[00:29:43] Kathryn: accumulated quite so much wealth.
[00:29:46] Robin: Yeah, exactly.
[00:29:47] Kathryn: Uh, I mean, I, I, I think of this as like boomers are, are an example of like, there's a lot that we can get right in our economy if we try and we can have a generation that has money that has houses that lives a long time and gets to go to, have you heard of Geezer World? they get to go to like a fun loving, elderly retirement community.
[00:30:13] Kathryn: Like I guess part of me feels like there's almost like a, a parallel to workers and unions. when you tell a low wage worker at an awful job making the minimum wage, like, you know, what's the problem? Someone out there is unionized and making good money like that is not beginning of the problem that someone else is succeeding. It's that you have been set up to fail.
[00:30:34] Kathryn: And so it's, it's easy to point to success is the problem and as the culprit when really it's that someone has held you back. And I think that that conflates with boomers of like, it's their fault that you're being held back and also they're really successful.
[00:30:47] Boomers were in Congress making these choices
[00:30:47] Robin: I mean, I think that the blame gets laid on them, and I'm not saying this is fair, but is because they were also in control of the politics. Right. And it's, you know, they, you've got. Multiple, multiple boomer presidents, but boomers dominating Congress. And the feeling is that it wasn't just that they benefited from the program, but then they also made these decisions. Like, as you have talked about, these 25 years of tax cuts, those were voted on by largely boomer politicians. 
[00:31:15] Kathryn: Well, that one even makes me more mad because like y'all, that's just a Republican policy that's, that's not a boomer policy, that's a Republican policy. And now they're like, oh no, no, these aren't the droids you're looking for. Like Republicans didn't pass tax cuts. Boomers did. Like, don't you forget whose fault it is that we've like absolutely decimated the federal budget for tax cuts to rich people. Your parents. I mean, like, I know it plays, 
[00:31:39] Kathryn: but that's 
[00:31:40] Robin: right, 
[00:31:40] Kathryn: wrong.
[00:31:42] Kathryn: The political argument that boomers came into office and then made things more conservative, gets painted to, because they're all like very conservative, selfish me, people who just want to eat up wealth as opposed to like, yeah. I mean, 
[00:31:56] Kathryn: boomers are also quite liberal and there were lots of liberal boomers as well, including liberal boomer presidents. And if they tilted more conservative, your problem is still with conservatism. And not with the people. 
[00:32:12] Robin: right. We should probably blame Gen Xers who voted for a bunch of these Republicans because we were brainwashed by, I don't know, Reagan the eighties.
[00:32:20] Kathryn: okay. Yeah. This is fair. I do think if we're making a political argument, Xers are more 
[00:32:24] Robin: Yeah. We're, we're a problem. And, and it may just me worry sometimes about, you know, peak Xers were eight years of Reagan.
[00:32:34] Robin: it makes me worry about the people who are, in that age now, growing up under Trump. I mean, like what, what deep messages are being like planted that will surface when they're 40 and actually start to vote, you know? 
[00:32:47] Kathryn: I don't know. The difference is that people really love Reagan still, and they always, they like, there's a lot of idolatry around Reagan and I I am. You think there's gonna be, there's gonna be myth making idol idolatry around Trump.
[00:33:01] Love for Trump will fade
[00:33:01] Robin: I think there already is.
[00:33:03] Kathryn: Oh, yeah. But I mean, like, that's now. I'm talking about in like 20 years.
[00:33:09] Robin: You think it's just gonna fade away?
[00:33:11] Kathryn: Oh, yeah. Because he's a, /// fraud, a 35 time convicted felon, uh, he's a hateful person in his politics and that he, he knows how to get people mad, but you don't have a legacy being mad or destroying things.
[00:33:31] Kathryn: Legacy comes from hope and what you can build. He is not building anything. In fact, the only thing he's building are the things he puts his name on, like Trump accounts, and that's not going as well as he wants. And also they'll take it away from him to make sure people can have it. Like, I, I just, he is not going to make a legacy that's positive. I think people view Reagan as having won the Cold War,
[00:33:53] Robin: Right.
[00:33:54] Kathryn: of having like taken control of big spending Democrats, of having saved social security, of bringing like honest fism to politics after Nixon, which like, ugh. Nixon, like, I, like, I, I don't think you see a lot of young people out here or a lot of people amongst the boomers who are like, you know who I love Nixon. Like
[00:34:19] Kathryn: you do not find people out there that are like, oh my God, Nixon. Those were the days like you didn't grow up in the Nixon era. Like, it, it like, yeah, I mean the guy's a disgrace. I think Trump's gonna go the same way. Like, his legacy will just get smaller and smaller over time. 
[00:34:49] Nixon gives us hope <3
[00:34:49] Kathryn: Nixon actually gives me a lot of hope of how little, like he just, he just does not have many defenders.
[00:34:57] Robin: No. 
[00:34:58] Kathryn: Um, anyway, 
[00:35:25] Kathryn: Boomers… I mean, obviously I will laugh at boomer jokes. I will make boomer jokes. I will make them to my boomer mother, um, with pride and glee. She knows me, believe it or not, and she, she understands that this is just what I'm like, um, quote unquote her sassiest kid. But I, you know, I will never point to success of a large group of Americans and say, that's what's wrong.
[00:35:47] Robin: Well, it does seem like an argument that sort of like we Yeah because they succeeded nobody else can.
[00:35:53] Kathryn: and that's not true. Like they succeeded and maybe we have to succeed in a different way, but that doesn't mean we can't have success or that their success impedes ours.
[00:36:03] Robin: right. Be because that is absolutely the argument that gets made,
[00:36:06] Kathryn: Yeah. But there, no, let's let's make it really clear. hold on. Did, I'm sorry. Did you just say housing again? What are you trying to, are you sure to trigger me? Are you sure to trigger me? Hold on really quick, really quick. You know why we don't have a child tax credit that eradicates child poverty, not social security,
[00:36:23] Robin: Right.
[00:36:24] Kathryn: like why we don't have universal Medicaid so every child in the United States has health insurance at least, until they turn 18. It's not social security. Why we, why, why we can't have childcare. It's not social security. And I think that the, this, this like pitting one versus the other in a zero sum world right, is a great way for you to forget that the reason why we don't have these things is because Congress doesn't prioritize them and they'd rather give a tax cut.
[00:36:51] Kathryn: And that is not a Boomer policy. like there's something special about being born in 1955 that means that you are going to tear down investments in children's, that is a conservative Republican policy, that it is not the government's job to help people. And y'all, spoiler alert, if they had been successful in 1983, they would have ended social security.
[00:37:13] Robin: You are saying in the, when, the last time that we, we revamped Social Security in 1983, when the trust fund was about to run out of money then that the, the Republican plan was really just to just get rid of it.
[00:37:25] Robin: 
[00:37:25] Kathryn: yeah. I mean, but like, uh, uh, maybe the more relevant reference would be they tried to privatize Social Security in the Bush administration and he had a plan to privatize it, to change basically the entire aspect of social security. And, it failed. And I think that now the success of social security is held up as a problem for every other avenue as opposed to, you know, you're just. 
[00:37:50] Robin: to Social Security with you,
[00:37:51] Kathryn: It does, doesn't it? But I, I, I think that the
[00:37:56] Kathryn: conflation of conservatism with baby boomers does conservatives a favor because you blame your parents and, um, it becomes less about tax policy choices as opposed to people. 
[00:38:09] Robin: yeah. I mean, I do, I feel like also it, it absolves current generation from taking action from, running for office advancing policies, voting in numbers. You know, I, you, you just keep reading. They're like, well, this will be the year that the younger people vote. you know?
[00:38:28] Free pass for shitty policy 
[00:38:28] Kathryn: The, the cynicism and resignation are a free pass for shitty policy, 
[00:38:34] Robin: Yeah, they give, they give shitty policy a free pass.
[00:38:38] Kathryn: Yes, yes. Like, oh, we'll never be able to change anything because of the boomers. And so like, there's no point in voting, like,
[00:38:45] Kathryn: That's a very different story of like, you are empowered, you can make a difference. We can have different policy environments, but if there is absolutely something we can do about it if we don't get brought into these narratives of, remember old people a long, long time ago in the greatest generation, they were great and then people old now they're evil. Like, fuck it. No. Just raise taxes and pay for children's investments. Bitch, sorry. 
[00:39:11] Kathryn: 
[00:39:11] Robin: Um, alright.
[00:39:15] Kathryn: I wanted to end with a quote about, I wanted to end with a quote, that for me encapsulates the Boomer argument. You're laughing because I'm going to a quote, But the former head of the UAW Walter Ruther 
[00:39:28] Kathryn: He was a, like a, an absolutely formative labor leader in the us Multiple assassination attempts on him. and he was vital in not only growing the power of the UAW and then the A-F-L-C-I-O, but using labor's voice in the Civil Rights movement
[00:39:47] Robin: Mm. Mm-hmm.
[00:39:47] Kathryn: And in the the United Farm Workers Movement. He spoke, on the 1963 rally, the I Have a Dream Rally. He was 
[00:39:56] Kathryn: one of the people that spoke before king, and he said, I think it was in the forties or fifties. Labor is not fighting for a larger slice of the pie. We're fighting for a bigger pie.
[00:40:12] Robin: Mm-hmm. 
[00:40:13] Is 'pie' a good metaphor? 
[00:40:13] Kathryn: I, it's like a really simple quote, but it has stuck with me in so many ways of like, this is gonna sound so dumb, but like, when it's a pie fight of like, boomers have too big a slice of pie. Like millennials, we need a bigger pie. We don't need to take their slice. We just need a bigger pie, and we need policies that fight for a bigger pie. And that I, I carry that with me through these types of discussions of like, here's what's wrong with boomers. And then like, can we just go back to making fun of them for being obsessed with World War ii?
[00:40:45] Robin: Well, I mean, I think that the problem with the bigger pie metaphor in this day and age is that, the bigger pie just keeps getting sucked upward Right. To the, to, to the wealthiest, and that the boomers embody that. Um, butI think your point is right and it's a nice note to end on 
[00:41:01] Kathryn: No, but I think that the, the pushback is important, right? Like my problem is that however big the pie gets, I'll never get more. 
[00:41:08] Robin: Yeah. Yeah. The pie is gonna service the national debt no matter how big it gets. Yeah.
[00:41:15] Kathryn: I, I genuinely think if we just had like few different choices in our tax policy, we could make investments in children and in the workforce that would actually grow the pie. And I don't talk about housing, but you know, if you wanna know a really morbid thought, I actually know where about 15 million homes are gonna come from in the next 10 years. And those are the ones that boomers vacate when they die. The secret supply argument that no one wants to talk about, which is very morbid and I don't celebrate it, but the highest home ownership rates in the United States or amongst a group of now 70 million people that will not be on this earth more than likely in the next 15 years. So if you really care a lot about supply, just,
[00:41:58] 
[00:41:59] Kathryn: just wait. But I, it's, it's funny, it's, it. It never comes up in the supply discussion of what is the relative housing stock over a 10 year or 15 year trajectory. And given the changes of like the, the actual size of the population and home ownership rates by demographic, by age cohort groups, we actually have a big release of supply coming. But
[00:42:20] Robin: Yeah. It's interesting that we haven't figured that part of it out. I mean, the peop that people don't, they're not downsizing outta their houses because we have put policies in place that discourage it
[00:42:31] Kathryn: or they don't want to and they like their house. Yeah. Or, and they like their house where it is, which, and they feel like maybe I live in a house that's too big, but like, that's also okay. I don't wanna create an economy where when I turn 60, someone tells me I'm not allowed to live in the house that I live in, because that's what young people need.
[00:42:48] Kathryn: Yeah. It's, you know, whatever. I get to live in my big piggy house. Like I get to, I'm an American, I get to do what I want, like. If the answer is we need to put people out of their big piggy houses because we need more like y'all that's what the communist did. This is America. If I buy my pig piggy house, I get to live in my piggy house, and that is not why you don't have a house. And then I'll die and someone else gets my piggy house and the circle of life continues.
[00:43:18] Robin: Your children can fight over your piggy house or cleaning it out which is 
[00:43:22] Kathryn: I'm, 
[00:43:22] Robin: really what they fight
[00:43:23] Kathryn: I have, I have filled my piggy house with so much stuff that you will have to go through. And so 
[00:43:31] Kathryn: 
[00:43:31] Robin: I can't even tell you how, how close that cuts. Um 
[00:43:36] Kathryn: no. Alright. I should say that I have cleaned out the house of a very beloved person after they died, and it was a brutal process. So I don't mean to undercut it. I cleaned up my childhood home when my dad died. 
[00:43:49] Kathryn: So that's one more house in the suburbs people, 
[00:43:58] Kathryn: Okay.
[00:43:58] Kathryn: So we're gonna take a quick break. A whole lot happened there. Robin and I are still working through a lot of feelings that come with hosting a show that tries to be positive about the economy in 2026. And sometimes you throw your hate at us and it doesn't really put us in a good place to talk about optimism.in addition to me getting lots of comments about how dumb I am, Robin has also gotten some comments and you know what, when you say bad things about me, my feelings get hurt. When you say bad things about my friends, I burn down your home and that's where we are anyway.
[00:44:32] Kathryn: So we should take a quick break all the work 
[00:44:33] MR 2 // EXEC ORDERS
[00:44:33] Robin: All right. We like to end the show with executive orders.
[00:44:37] Kathryn: Robin, what's, what's yours?
[00:44:41] Robin: This is really, really petty. So I feel,
[00:44:43] Kathryn: Oh my God. Yes. I'm here for it. We're stop. I need to get popcorn and then, and then go.
[00:44:48] Robin: I've just had it with people and their dogs. If there is a sign at the park that says There are no dogs in this park, that doesn't mean you and your dog with your Frisbee are exempt from that, I live in a neighborhood with a dog park and a quarter mile down the road is a park that literally says, no dogs in this park. And I looked in it the other day and there was like five people playing with their dog. Go to the dog park.
[00:45:12] Kathryn: Go to the dog park. Um,
[00:45:14] Robin: dog park.
[00:45:15] Kathryn: yeah,
[00:45:16] Robin: I can't decide what the fines would be if it was my executive order, but it would, it's just short of you lose your dog.
[00:45:22] Kathryn: we have a dog. 
[00:45:24] Kathryn: I 
[00:45:24] Kathryn: love my dog. My 
[00:45:25] Robin: sweet. 
[00:45:26] Kathryn: she's so sweet. 
[00:45:28] Kathryn: Uh, and, yeah, I'm also like dog owners. Be better,
[00:45:31] Robin: Be better.
[00:45:32] Robin: do people bring dogs into the grocery stores where you live? People bring dogs into the, into like the grocery store and I'm like, on what planet do you think that that's an acceptable behavior? Anyway. nobody in Spokane took their dogs into the grocery store. This is an LA thing
[00:45:53] Kathryn: this is now a thing. 
[00:45:54] Robin: that just is like, oh, people.
[00:45:58] Kathryn: what I love about dog owners almost all the time is just how much enthusiasm they have for their dog that sometimes blinds them to and considerate their being. But, um, dogs do make the world better and we fundamentally believe that here on 
[00:46:10] Kathryn: optimist economy, which is why we'll send a free dog to any spiritual sponsor. 
[00:46:16] Robin: I hope you can be, I hope you can match that in pettiness.
[00:46:20] Robin: I 
[00:46:20] Kathryn: I was going for my usual takedown of Hollywood that 
[00:46:24] Kathryn: we need like prestige drama about Walter Ruther in the mid-century labor movement.oh my God, does this guy need a Netflix mini, like seasons of a miniseries? Like if you'll, if you'll shell out for like seven seasons or were there six about the British royal family.
[00:46:44] Kathryn: Can we give like some treatment to the working class in the us? I would watch six seasons about the labor movement in the forties, fifties, and sixties. Like I would throw down go do not spare any expense on costume. I mean,
[00:46:58] Kathryn: here's a tidbit. 
[00:46:59] Kathryn: he, he he survived his assassination attempt in his home, barely. They shot him with a shotgun through like the window at his kitchen sink. And the only reason why he didn't die is because he was turning to talk to his wife. And so he got hit instead of getting hit full on in the chest, he got hit in his right arm.
[00:47:18] Robin: Oh my gosh.
[00:47:19] Kathryn: He really struggled to use it for the rest of his life. So if you met him, he introduced himself with his left hand because he did, he couldn't move the right arm 'cause of all the shotgun pellets in there.
[00:47:28] Kathryn: And then Not that, not that much later. This similar attack was made on his brother who also survived. And the FBI was like a. Sorry, this is Hoover's, FBI, these are liberals. We don't
[00:47:43] Kathryn: investigate those crime. Yeah. It's like, it's not a real crime if you try to kill a liberal. Coretta Scott King spoke at his funeral and gave one of the eulogies. So I mean, like, we just, we have these like titans, of American history who don't get the same treatment as the British monarchy.
[00:48:05] Robin: I know,
[00:48:06] Robin: I know.
[00:48:07] Robin: yeah. 
[00:48:07] Robin: more American stories. And I'm with you. I think that that would be Walter Ruther.
[00:48:11] Robin: Who would you cast as? Walter Ruther.
[00:48:13] Kathryn: oh, that's a great question. Obviously I have a lot of thoughts on casting. Um,
[00:48:17] Robin: generally,
[00:48:19] Kathryn: He looks like he's from the forties.
[00:48:21] Robin: Exactly. You could have cast him in the forties.
[00:48:24] Kathryn: Okay. You know what? This guy actually looks like? 
[00:48:27] Kathryn: um, bill Pullman, His son is an actor named Louis Pullman. And I think Louis Pullman could pull off a mid-century face. I'm thinking, I'm thinking Louis Pullman as Walter Ruther
[00:48:41] Robin: yeah.
[00:48:41] Kathryn: Now here's a real question. Look up John Lewis, labor leader, He was the, head of the United Mine Workers. Look at this guy's visage. Who plays him?
[00:48:55] Robin: Uh, a pair of eyebrows plays him.
[00:48:57] Kathryn: I mean, you need like,
[00:48:58] Robin: eyebrow wigs.
[00:48:59] Kathryn: You need eyebrow wigs for this one.
[00:49:01] Robin: 
[00:49:01] Spiritual Sponsors
[00:49:01] Kathryn: okay. Spiritual sponsors on this episode about the boomers and People who dunno how to walk their dog. Who is your spiritual sponsor?
[00:49:13] Robin: Actually my spiritual sponsor, I was thinking about this and I've been thinking about this for a while, is my baby boomer friends who are a few years older than me and who especially in the last few years, have given me kind of great advice about things and who, you know. I'm an oldest daughter, so I don't have a big, an older sister, and they have all really filled that gap for me.
[00:49:41] Kathryn: Oh, that's such a good sponsor. I'm coming back again with the Olympics. Um,
[00:49:47] Robin: you are. By the time this airs, it'll be like, you know, world Cup season, but.
[00:49:51] Kathryn: then they need to be reminded, um, my spiritual sponsors, once again, the Olympics, I had one of the most. Like thing that you wish would happen in a high stakes sports moment, which I was in a public place, I was in an airport, and I have this very formative memory of being at an airport during the Michael Phelps relay race in Beijing in 2008.
[00:50:12] Kathryn: And I mean, like, people weren't getting on the plane because the race was, and people were like shouting from the gate of like, go. And it was amazing. And then he won, and then we boarded and had to be on an airplane. But it was really great to have that like sense of community. So I was, I was at the airport, and I watched the US women win hockey, real time and heard like throughout the terminal, just like, like hollers.
[00:50:36] Kathryn: when that amazing witchcraft of a play went in. And I, I, that was a very special moment. So my spiritual sponsorship is whoever, whoever shouted Fuck yeah in the terminal when that shot went in. Because it really, it really, and then there's just like the, the hollers, it was, it was great. The, that is my spiritual sponsor.
[00:51:00] Kathryn: I know that our production at least one of our production staff was highly vested in the game, um, to the point that if it had played at a different time, we would've had to have moved recording. Um, 
[00:51:09] Kathryn: so Sophie Lan is an amazing women's hockey fan and edits the Optimist Economy podcast and Andy Robinson creates our online videos that you can see on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn snapping the two of you.
[00:51:24] Robin: Of course. Thank you to everyone who donates to keep those two paid. You can donate if you'd like to become a sponsor of our show, at any level that is comfortable for you. You can do that at optimisteconomy.com. And if you're interested in chatting with other, optimists, we have a chat going on Substack and uh, so if you just become a follower of our show on Substack, you can talk to them in the chat room. That's it for our show.
[00:51:48] Kathryn: That's it.
[00:51:49] Robin: That's it.
[00:51:50] Kathryn: That's it. I don't know what the fuck else we can do.
[00:51:54] Easter Egg
[00:51:54] Kathryn: Look how red I am relative to the start of the show. Look, I mean, look how red I'm, look at my big old red face. We got it. Not just a near spit take, she spat out her water folks. And how did she do it? When I made a comment about my appearance, boom.
[00:52:22] Robin: I don't know. What did that?