1 00:00:01,140 --> 00:00:03,030 Lindsay Chervinsky: He's just constitutionally incapable of 2 00:00:03,060 --> 00:00:06,300 sort of sitting home and writing books, or reading books, or, you 3 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:09,210 know, writing poetry, and being a farmer. He has to be in the 4 00:00:09,210 --> 00:00:09,510 action. 5 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,530 Colleen Shogan: On June 17, 1775 John Quincy Adams and his 6 00:00:14,530 --> 00:00:18,640 mother, Abigail, climbed up Penn's Hill near their Braintree 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,530 home to the sound of thunder, except it wasn't. It was the 8 00:00:23,530 --> 00:00:27,910 sound of cannon and gunfire from the Battle of Bunker Hill. The 9 00:00:27,910 --> 00:00:31,300 seven-year-old Adams had no way of knowing that he was 10 00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:35,515 witnessing a rebellion becoming a revolution, the beginnings of 11 00:00:35,515 --> 00:00:40,165 a nation that he would one day lead as its chief diplomat and 12 00:00:40,165 --> 00:00:44,185 as its president, that revolution would sweep him 13 00:00:44,185 --> 00:00:48,025 across the Atlantic to Paris just a few years later to serve 14 00:00:48,025 --> 00:00:52,195 as his father's personal secretary. It was the first of 15 00:00:52,195 --> 00:00:56,350 many diplomatic posts that would shape Adams's vision for the 16 00:00:56,350 --> 00:01:01,450 United States and its place in the world, but as today's guest, 17 00:01:01,450 --> 00:01:05,470 Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, finds convincing his fellow Americans 18 00:01:05,470 --> 00:01:10,600 of that vision wasn't always easy. Adams imagined a future 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:16,300 that many Americans could not or refuse to see. So, what can we 20 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:21,325 learn from Adams's quest for a strong and virtuous nation in a 21 00:01:21,325 --> 00:01:26,695 dangerous world. I'm Colleen Shogan, and this is In Pursuit, 22 00:01:26,695 --> 00:01:31,105 a podcast that explores lessons from America's past to write the 23 00:01:31,105 --> 00:01:37,195 history of America's future. Episode Six: John Quincy Adams 24 00:01:37,195 --> 00:01:42,670 avoids the monsters abroad. Lindsay Chervinsky. Welcome to 25 00:01:42,670 --> 00:01:46,870 In Pursuit. John Quincy Adams had an amazing career. He held 26 00:01:46,870 --> 00:01:51,190 pretty much every diplomatic post imaginable. So, when did 27 00:01:51,190 --> 00:01:53,350 his career in diplomacy begin? 28 00:01:53,350 --> 00:01:55,990 Lindsay Chervinsky: He was so unbelievably young, so he really 29 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:59,920 comes onto the scene when he's eight, and his mother, Abigail 30 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:03,430 Adams, brings him up to a local hill to watch the battle of 31 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:06,265 Bunker Hill, and it is the first time that he starts to really 32 00:02:06,265 --> 00:02:10,315 see the impact of failed diplomacy war, of course. Just a 33 00:02:10,315 --> 00:02:13,945 couple of years later, when he was very young, he went with his 34 00:02:13,945 --> 00:02:17,455 father to Europe for basically his first assignment, which was 35 00:02:17,455 --> 00:02:20,575 to help his father as a secretary and to help his father 36 00:02:20,575 --> 00:02:25,135 learn French, and so he started to have experiences in Paris, in 37 00:02:25,135 --> 00:02:28,825 France, in London, when he was not even a teenager. 38 00:02:28,825 --> 00:02:31,900 Colleen Shogan: So, what did those early years abroad teach 39 00:02:31,930 --> 00:02:33,130 John Quincy Adams? 40 00:02:33,450 --> 00:02:34,470 Lindsay Chervinsky: Well, I think that he taught him a 41 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:36,810 couple of really important things. The first thing was that 42 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:40,770 diplomacy fails. He saw his father fail at diplomacy, and 43 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:44,310 that is a very important lesson for any diplomat to learn. The 44 00:02:44,310 --> 00:02:47,910 second was that the United States was incredibly weak, 45 00:02:47,910 --> 00:02:52,290 especially early on, and it was really just a pawn to be used 46 00:02:52,290 --> 00:02:55,320 between the various different European empires. And 47 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,635 critically, I think the second part of that was that he learned 48 00:02:58,635 --> 00:03:01,905 that the European empires were not particularly interested in 49 00:03:01,905 --> 00:03:05,205 the fate of the United States. They were interested in using 50 00:03:05,205 --> 00:03:08,535 the nation if it was beneficial to them, but they didn't care 51 00:03:08,535 --> 00:03:13,515 what happened for moral or even virtuous reasons. Later in his 52 00:03:13,515 --> 00:03:16,995 career, he becomes the ambassador to Great Britain. He 53 00:03:16,995 --> 00:03:21,150 becomes the Secretary of State. So, how did some of those early 54 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:26,400 experiences affect his future diplomacy, and had conditions 55 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,970 changed in the United States. They had a bit, of course. The 56 00:03:29,970 --> 00:03:33,870 United States continued to grow in size, it continued to grow in 57 00:03:33,870 --> 00:03:38,160 its economic power, it was acquiring more and more land. It 58 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,880 was a very valuable market for the European empires, and they 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,225 also bought a lot of goods from the United States to, for 60 00:03:45,225 --> 00:03:48,495 example, feed their colonies in the Caribbean. So it was 61 00:03:48,495 --> 00:03:51,675 starting to become an economic player in its own right, but I 62 00:03:51,675 --> 00:03:54,825 think that those early experiences were formative for 63 00:03:54,825 --> 00:03:59,145 John Quincy Adams, because it made him intensely pragmatic and 64 00:03:59,145 --> 00:04:01,875 a little bit suspicious of whatever the Europeans were 65 00:04:01,875 --> 00:04:04,425 doing, and that's really important when you're a 66 00:04:04,425 --> 00:04:07,470 diplomat, because you have to understand where the other 67 00:04:07,470 --> 00:04:10,740 person is coming from in order to find compromise. 68 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:13,650 Colleen Shogan: John Quincy Adams eventually has a speech in 69 00:04:13,650 --> 00:04:16,890 which he makes a famous statement in which he says the 70 00:04:16,890 --> 00:04:21,360 United States does not go abroad in search of monsters to 71 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,320 destroy. What does that quote mean, and what significance does 72 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:26,220 that have? 73 00:04:26,220 --> 00:04:28,455 Well, the context behind the speech is important, and it's 74 00:04:28,455 --> 00:04:32,655 actually a really fun scene to set. He was invited to give the 75 00:04:32,655 --> 00:04:35,985 July 4th address at Congress. He was not a congressman at this 76 00:04:35,985 --> 00:04:38,025 point, he was Secretary of State, and he wanted to 77 00:04:38,025 --> 00:04:40,455 demonstrate that he was not speaking on behalf of the 78 00:04:40,455 --> 00:04:44,145 administration, so he wore his Harvard robes to give this 79 00:04:44,145 --> 00:04:48,645 speech. At the time, there were a number of wars in Europe, and 80 00:04:48,645 --> 00:04:52,110 there were also a number of rebellions in Latin America and 81 00:04:52,110 --> 00:04:55,200 South America. A number of republics were declaring their 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,770 independence and trying to throw off the shackles of Spain, in 83 00:04:58,770 --> 00:05:02,160 particular, but European. Powers, there was a question of 84 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,220 would the United States recognize those new republics, 85 00:05:05,220 --> 00:05:08,730 would they interfere in wars in Europe on behalf of other 86 00:05:08,730 --> 00:05:12,420 nations who were declaring their independence, and this speech, I 87 00:05:12,420 --> 00:05:15,735 think, is probably one of the most underappreciated or 88 00:05:15,735 --> 00:05:19,155 misunderstood speeches in American history, because yes, 89 00:05:19,155 --> 00:05:22,305 he does that famous line, we don't go abroad in search of 90 00:05:22,305 --> 00:05:26,085 monsters to destroy, which is him saying we are not going to 91 00:05:26,085 --> 00:05:30,075 insert ourselves in wars that have nothing to do with us. But 92 00:05:30,075 --> 00:05:34,245 the next line is super important too. What he says is that we 93 00:05:34,245 --> 00:05:38,160 want to be a friend to all nations, but we cannot enforce 94 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,160 those principles through military might, or it will 95 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,270 corrode our own character, so it is not an isolationist 96 00:05:45,270 --> 00:05:49,260 sentiment. It is not saying that the United States won't engage 97 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:53,910 internationally or won't have friends or allies, but rather we 98 00:05:53,910 --> 00:05:58,950 can't make other nations be like us, or that process will destroy 99 00:05:58,950 --> 00:05:59,820 who we are. 100 00:05:59,820 --> 00:06:03,135 Who's president during when John Quincy Adams gives this speech? 101 00:06:03,135 --> 00:06:05,505 Lindsay Chervinsky: James Monroe was president. He had the very 102 00:06:05,505 --> 00:06:08,415 good sense to appoint John Quincy Adams as Secretary of 103 00:06:08,415 --> 00:06:11,985 State, and then he even had the better wisdom to actually let 104 00:06:11,985 --> 00:06:13,125 him do the job. 105 00:06:13,125 --> 00:06:15,945 Colleen Shogan: During Monroe's presidency, we know that there 106 00:06:15,945 --> 00:06:19,875 is a famous international doctrine, the Monroe Doctrine. 107 00:06:19,875 --> 00:06:22,785 Should it have been called the John Quincy Adams doctrine? 108 00:06:22,785 --> 00:06:24,480 Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes, absolutely. I really think it 109 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:25,620 should have 110 00:06:25,650 --> 00:06:28,320 Colleen Shogan: easy to say as Monroe Doctrine. Exactly, 111 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,600 Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes, it really should have been, because 112 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,720 it was Adams' brainchild, and it was something that he had been 113 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,900 talking about and thinking about for at this point at least a 114 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:40,770 decade, and it's actually three parts. The part most people know 115 00:06:40,770 --> 00:06:43,620 about is President Monroe's address to Congress, which, of 116 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:46,980 course, is a written address at this point. President Monroe was 117 00:06:46,980 --> 00:06:50,355 not going and speaking to Congress, and it basically laid 118 00:06:50,355 --> 00:06:54,435 out the principle that the Western Hemisphere was closed to 119 00:06:54,435 --> 00:06:57,915 further interference from European nations. The United 120 00:06:57,915 --> 00:07:01,635 States wouldn't interfere in their existing relationships, 121 00:07:01,635 --> 00:07:05,565 but they wouldn't tolerate any further colonization, but there 122 00:07:05,565 --> 00:07:09,900 are two more parts. One is a letter to Russia that John 123 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:13,320 Quincy Adams wrote, basically telling them to back off, and 124 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,800 that their interference in South America, in particular, would 125 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,650 not be welcome. And the third piece is a letter to Great 126 00:07:19,650 --> 00:07:23,850 Britain, and Great Britain had actually offered to partner with 127 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:27,960 the United States to keep Russia and Spain at bay, and John 128 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,130 Quincy Adams said no, because he said it would be more dignified 129 00:07:32,130 --> 00:07:36,495 to come in as a cock boat in the wake of a British man of war 130 00:07:36,495 --> 00:07:40,905 than to agree to be their lesser partner in this endeavor, so it 131 00:07:40,905 --> 00:07:45,885 was asserting a sort of independence and a claim to 132 00:07:45,885 --> 00:07:49,335 future dominance over the Western Hemisphere that was very 133 00:07:49,335 --> 00:07:50,505 forward looking. 134 00:07:50,505 --> 00:07:52,875 Colleen Shogan: John Quincy Adams, you know, has this very 135 00:07:52,875 --> 00:07:58,140 successful career as a diplomat. He negotiates an end to the War 136 00:07:58,140 --> 00:08:02,700 of 1812 He's the ambassador to Great Britain, and then a very 137 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:06,000 eventful role as Secretary of State, and very influential 138 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,910 role. What makes him want to run for President of the United 139 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:09,750 States? 140 00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:11,700 Lindsay Chervinsky: Such a great question. He also, you know, as 141 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:14,670 Secretary of State, he had engineered the purchase of what 142 00:08:14,670 --> 00:08:18,330 was called the Floridas, which is Florida into now Louisiana, 143 00:08:18,375 --> 00:08:22,575 which had long been very desirable for Americans, I think 144 00:08:22,575 --> 00:08:24,705 there were a couple of things that made him want to run for 145 00:08:24,705 --> 00:08:27,435 president, and I should say he didn't actually want to run for 146 00:08:27,435 --> 00:08:29,895 president, he wanted to be president, because he thought 147 00:08:29,895 --> 00:08:33,525 campaigning was sort of beneath him and beneath the office of 148 00:08:33,525 --> 00:08:34,215 the presidency. 149 00:08:34,215 --> 00:08:37,095 Colleen Shogan: Did they really campaign in 1820s Was that what 150 00:08:37,095 --> 00:08:37,785 they did? 151 00:08:37,785 --> 00:08:39,555 Lindsay Chervinsky: They pretended that they didn't, they 152 00:08:39,555 --> 00:08:42,270 pretended that they had nothing to do with it, but in reality 153 00:08:42,270 --> 00:08:45,750 they had these massive campaign apparatuses that were run by 154 00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:49,650 their allies. Their wives were incredibly important, so Louisa 155 00:08:49,650 --> 00:08:52,830 Catherine Adams was essential. She threw these parties that 156 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:56,400 were basically a way to curry favor with potential supporters. 157 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,180 They had newspaper editors who were on staff or on side with 158 00:09:00,180 --> 00:09:03,210 their campaign, but they were supposed to appear as though 159 00:09:03,210 --> 00:09:05,775 they were disinterested, and they were being called to 160 00:09:05,775 --> 00:09:10,395 service. I think Adams wanted to be president because he was kind 161 00:09:10,395 --> 00:09:13,215 of what one did. Once you were Secretary of State, you know, we 162 00:09:13,215 --> 00:09:16,665 had had, of course, Thomas Jefferson had become president, 163 00:09:16,665 --> 00:09:19,545 Madison had become president, Monroe had become president, and 164 00:09:19,545 --> 00:09:23,325 so it was the next viable step, he certainly believed that he 165 00:09:23,325 --> 00:09:26,745 was more experienced and capable of anyone else that was running, 166 00:09:26,745 --> 00:09:30,390 and therefore would be the better president. His father had 167 00:09:30,390 --> 00:09:32,730 been president, so I think it was sort of living up to that 168 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:37,410 Adams legacy, and he believed deeply in the future of the 169 00:09:37,410 --> 00:09:39,930 union and wanted to do everything in his power to 170 00:09:39,930 --> 00:09:43,740 support it. He wins the presidency, but it's not without 171 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:46,830 controversy, correct. So, this is what is often called the 172 00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:49,890 corrupt bargain. I think unfairly so, because it is how 173 00:09:49,890 --> 00:09:52,965 the Constitution is intended to work. So, in the election of 174 00:09:52,965 --> 00:09:55,785 1824 there were a number of different candidates, none of 175 00:09:55,785 --> 00:09:59,115 them received enough to win outright, and so the election 176 00:09:59,115 --> 00:10:01,245 was thrown to the House. Representatives, and there were 177 00:10:01,245 --> 00:10:03,855 basically four viable candidates. There's Andrew 178 00:10:03,855 --> 00:10:07,455 Jackson, there was John Quincy Adams, there was Henry Clay, and 179 00:10:07,455 --> 00:10:10,455 William Crawford. Now, William Crawford had had a stroke during 180 00:10:10,455 --> 00:10:13,335 the campaign and was in ill health and could not really 181 00:10:13,335 --> 00:10:16,140 actually serve, so quickly he was out of the running, and 182 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:19,500 Henry Clay had a relatively small number of votes, so he was 183 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:22,620 not going to be a viable candidate, so it came down to 184 00:10:22,620 --> 00:10:25,800 Adams and Jackson, and that meant that Henry Clay had 185 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,500 enormous influence on what would happen, because he could 186 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:32,610 encourage his supporters to go to one side or the other. Here's 187 00:10:32,610 --> 00:10:35,640 where I think the story gets fuzzy. Henry Clay despised 188 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,535 Andrew Jackson with every fiber of his being; he would have 189 00:10:38,535 --> 00:10:42,045 rather jumped off a bridge than voted for him or encouraged his 190 00:10:42,045 --> 00:10:45,765 supporters to vote for him, so there is absolutely nothing that 191 00:10:45,765 --> 00:10:49,125 Adams could have offered Clay or that Jackson could have offered 192 00:10:49,125 --> 00:10:53,445 Clay to change the outcome. However, Adams did meet with 193 00:10:53,445 --> 00:10:57,585 Clay, Clay threw his support to Adams, and then later Adams made 194 00:10:57,585 --> 00:11:01,440 Clay his secretary of state, so it looked like there was this 195 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,060 backroom deal that had gone on. Now that allegation ignores both 196 00:11:06,060 --> 00:11:09,480 the relationship between Clay and Jackson, but also this was 197 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,380 what had been done. All previous presidents had put their rivals 198 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:17,400 into the cabinet, so it wasn't like he was breaking practice or 199 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,560 disregarding precedent in any way. 200 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:21,300 Colleen Shogan: Is that the beginning of the early spoils 201 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:22,740 system in 1824? 202 00:11:22,770 --> 00:11:24,255 Lindsay Chervinsky: No, I don't. I would say that actually 203 00:11:24,255 --> 00:11:27,075 Jackson is really the beginning of the spoils system, because 204 00:11:27,075 --> 00:11:30,765 Jackson, when he came into office in 1828 he fired pretty 205 00:11:30,765 --> 00:11:33,645 much everyone that was in office and put in all of his cronies 206 00:11:33,645 --> 00:11:37,035 and supporters. Up until that point, what we refer to as the 207 00:11:37,035 --> 00:11:40,245 team of rivals cabinet concept, which, of course, Doris Kearns 208 00:11:40,245 --> 00:11:43,125 Goodwin made so famous with Lincoln, that was just what was 209 00:11:43,125 --> 00:11:47,790 done. You typically took the leading people in your party and 210 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:50,130 you brought them into the administration as a way to 211 00:11:50,130 --> 00:11:53,550 strengthen your position, to make yourself seem stronger, 212 00:11:53,550 --> 00:11:57,480 because you had the support of all these people, and to try and 213 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,530 smooth over any fissures in your party. It was a way to build a 214 00:12:01,530 --> 00:12:06,570 coalition. 215 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:09,150 Colleen Shogan: So John Quincy Adams becomes President of the 216 00:12:09,150 --> 00:12:13,650 United States. What does he prioritize? What type of agenda 217 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:14,670 does he espouse? 218 00:12:14,670 --> 00:12:16,680 Lindsay Chervinsky: John Quincy Adams really had a vision for 219 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:19,890 how to strengthen the union, and that was particularly important 220 00:12:19,890 --> 00:12:24,030 in the 1820s as the country was expanding rapidly, and you had 221 00:12:24,030 --> 00:12:26,970 these different regions that culturally were quite different, 222 00:12:26,970 --> 00:12:30,735 had very different economic bases, had very different 223 00:12:30,735 --> 00:12:34,515 traditions and religions and education, but they needed each 224 00:12:34,515 --> 00:12:37,605 other, or at least he believed that they did, and so he 225 00:12:37,605 --> 00:12:40,455 embraced what he called the American system, which would 226 00:12:40,455 --> 00:12:43,905 support infrastructure at a national level that would 227 00:12:43,905 --> 00:12:47,625 increase roads, it would improve canals, it would improve the 228 00:12:47,625 --> 00:12:51,585 quality of ports and harbors to make trade easier, but it also 229 00:12:51,585 --> 00:12:55,380 had a scientific and educational component. He supported a 230 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:57,870 national university, which is actually something that both 231 00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:01,230 Washington and John Adams had supported as well, and he 232 00:13:01,230 --> 00:13:05,070 supported a national center for astronomy. He felt that 233 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:08,460 understanding the heavens and the skies were really important. 234 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:12,240 Now, this was sort of roundly mocked by his opponents as a 235 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,275 lighthouse of the skies, but it does show how forward-thinking 236 00:13:16,275 --> 00:13:20,145 he was about what the nation could do to support learning and 237 00:13:20,145 --> 00:13:20,925 education 238 00:13:20,925 --> 00:13:23,505 Colleen Shogan: But then Jackson does pass an infrastructure 239 00:13:23,505 --> 00:13:24,405 bill. Right? 240 00:13:24,405 --> 00:13:25,995 Lindsay Chervinsky: This is one of the things that I think is so 241 00:13:25,995 --> 00:13:29,415 fascinating. Is Adams put all of these ideas forward and they 242 00:13:29,415 --> 00:13:32,595 were defeated, and then Jackson embraced a lot of them, and they 243 00:13:32,595 --> 00:13:35,715 were supported. It wasn't that the ideas were flawed or 244 00:13:35,715 --> 00:13:39,120 problematic, it was that sometimes you need the right 245 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,610 political culture, the right political moment and the right 246 00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:44,010 person in office to actually make them happen. 247 00:13:44,010 --> 00:13:46,530 Colleen Shogan: You talked a little bit about the astronomy. 248 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:50,070 He also is credited with the Smithsonian. So, John Quincy 249 00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:54,360 Adams was some people say the smartest US president that we 250 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,230 ever had. How were those ideas received, or did they have to 251 00:13:58,230 --> 00:14:00,390 have a different moment in time as well? 252 00:14:00,390 --> 00:14:02,220 Lindsay Chervinsky: He was, I think, probably among the 253 00:14:02,265 --> 00:14:04,395 smartest presidents we've had, and you know, there's an 254 00:14:04,395 --> 00:14:07,935 interesting discussion to be had about whether the smartest 255 00:14:07,935 --> 00:14:10,305 presidents are always the best ones. Sometimes John Quincy 256 00:14:10,305 --> 00:14:12,825 Adams was so smart he couldn't really deal with other people, 257 00:14:12,825 --> 00:14:16,185 and you kind of have to do that as president. He was very 258 00:14:16,185 --> 00:14:19,275 supportive of the Smithsonian when he was later in Congress, 259 00:14:19,275 --> 00:14:22,545 after his time as president, he was pretty instrumental in 260 00:14:22,545 --> 00:14:25,710 getting the bill passed, and then actually donated a number 261 00:14:25,710 --> 00:14:29,820 of items and goods for the early museum. I think that the 262 00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:32,490 Smithsonian, and actually a number of his efforts in the 263 00:14:32,490 --> 00:14:36,000 White House, get at this concept that it's not enough to have 264 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,180 shared borders, you have to also have a shared history and a 265 00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:43,080 shared culture in order to sustain a union going forward, 266 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,540 in recognition that the country was going to hit some pretty 267 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:48,180 hard times, he could foresee some of the challenges coming 268 00:14:48,225 --> 00:14:51,555 down the road, and he thought that if we had a shared cultural 269 00:14:51,555 --> 00:14:54,765 base, a shared educational base, a shared history, that that 270 00:14:54,765 --> 00:14:57,765 might help us survive those rocky moments, 271 00:14:57,765 --> 00:15:01,125 Colleen Shogan: And in 1828 of course. He wants to run again 272 00:15:01,125 --> 00:15:05,805 for a second term, and he does, but this time he's defeated by 273 00:15:05,805 --> 00:15:07,905 his rival, Andrew Jackson. 274 00:15:07,905 --> 00:15:10,740 Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah, I think as early as the end of 275 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:13,950 1826 he knew he was going to lose, because the country was 276 00:15:13,950 --> 00:15:17,790 really moving away from New England, it was moving away from 277 00:15:17,790 --> 00:15:20,880 his version of what it meant to be a politician. In some ways, 278 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,940 he was really the last of the founders, because he did want to 279 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:27,600 remain above the people. He did not see himself as a party man. 280 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,420 He didn't want to be a party man. He wanted to be a president 281 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:34,245 for all of the people. He didn't like to campaign. He didn't like 282 00:15:34,245 --> 00:15:37,935 to do those kinds of things. And the country had gone through 283 00:15:37,935 --> 00:15:41,385 enormous changes in those four years. Many of the states had 284 00:15:41,385 --> 00:15:45,525 introduced new suffrage laws that expanded the vote to most 285 00:15:45,525 --> 00:15:48,525 white men. You didn't have to have property anymore. That 286 00:15:48,525 --> 00:15:51,885 meant that there were a huge influx of voters, especially in 287 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:55,365 the West, and that was important because they were very resentful 288 00:15:55,365 --> 00:15:58,620 of the hold on power that New Englanders had held for so long, 289 00:15:58,620 --> 00:16:01,560 and sort of like the intellectual elite that Adams 290 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,110 embodied, I mean, he was the intellectual elite. He was 291 00:16:04,110 --> 00:16:08,160 brilliant. He had incredible education and experiences, and a 292 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,660 lot of voters scorned that what they saw as elitism. And so the 293 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:18,090 cultural shift, the actual voter shift West, and Jackson's 294 00:16:18,090 --> 00:16:22,035 persona, of which he was a very, very appealing - now we would 295 00:16:22,035 --> 00:16:25,455 call him a demagogue, but he was a very appealing character, 296 00:16:25,455 --> 00:16:27,915 meant that Adams didn't really have a chance. 297 00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:30,390 Colleen Shogan: But John Quincy Adams doesn't just pack up his 298 00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:33,600 bags and go home. This is what's really interesting about John 299 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:39,090 Quincy Adams: he recognizes his electoral defeat, but then he 300 00:16:39,090 --> 00:16:44,310 becomes the only president in American history to run for and 301 00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:48,270 have a seat in the House of Representatives after serving as 302 00:16:48,270 --> 00:16:51,405 President of the United States. What does he do as a member of 303 00:16:51,405 --> 00:16:52,095 Congress? 304 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,130 Lindsay Chervinsky: He does. I love this about him. He's just 305 00:16:54,130 --> 00:16:57,310 constitutionally incapable of sort of sitting home and writing 306 00:16:57,310 --> 00:17:00,280 books, or reading books, or, you know, writing poetry and being a 307 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,730 farmer, he has to be in the action, and so his neighbors 308 00:17:03,730 --> 00:17:07,600 elect him to Congress. He serves for 18 years, which is amazing 309 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,020 at the end of his life. He also takes side gigs in that he 310 00:17:11,020 --> 00:17:14,890 represents the Amistad case in front of the Supreme Court. So, 311 00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:18,265 these are people who had been captured into slavery illegally, 312 00:17:18,265 --> 00:17:21,805 and he represents them and gets them their freedom, but he sees 313 00:17:21,805 --> 00:17:26,095 his time in Congress as an opportunity to speak on behalf 314 00:17:26,095 --> 00:17:29,065 of his vision for what the country can be, and to warn 315 00:17:29,065 --> 00:17:32,185 against the dangers he sees coming down the road. He had 316 00:17:32,185 --> 00:17:36,715 always been intellectually an abolitionist, in that he opposed 317 00:17:36,715 --> 00:17:40,060 the slave power and the unfair advantage it brought to the 318 00:17:40,060 --> 00:17:43,420 South, in particular, he thought slavery degraded all that 319 00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:46,150 participated in it, but he hadn't ever really taken a 320 00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:50,140 public stand. Once he was in Congress, he became an ardent, 321 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:53,890 outspoken advocate against slavery, and, in particular, 322 00:17:53,890 --> 00:17:57,040 against the gag rule, which prevented congressmen from 323 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,740 talking about slavery. I mean, talk about the ultimate 324 00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:03,205 violation of the First Amendment, and he almost 325 00:18:03,205 --> 00:18:06,775 single-handedly defeated it. It took a great deal of time and 326 00:18:06,775 --> 00:18:10,255 parliamentary maneuvers, but he excelled at those things, and 327 00:18:10,255 --> 00:18:15,445 Southerners recognized him as the most impressive and 328 00:18:15,445 --> 00:18:18,835 difficult to defeat opponent of slavery, and that was a couple 329 00:18:18,835 --> 00:18:21,835 of reasons: one, he was so smart, he was so eloquent, he 330 00:18:21,835 --> 00:18:25,120 was so good at using the maneuvers of Congress to get 331 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,690 what he wanted, but his stature as the son of a president and a 332 00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:32,620 former president meant that he was physically untouchable, and 333 00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:36,340 this was very important in the 1840s because there was a 334 00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:39,640 fighting and dueling culture in Congress where southerners 335 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,530 tended to elect people who would fight on behalf of slavery and 336 00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:47,965 their interests, that meant caning, so we saw, you know, the 337 00:18:47,965 --> 00:18:52,315 caning of Charles Sumner, duels, fisticuffs, all sorts of 338 00:18:52,315 --> 00:18:55,735 violence, and they would threaten any northerner who 339 00:18:55,735 --> 00:18:58,825 spoke against slavery. Well, they couldn't threaten John 340 00:18:58,825 --> 00:19:02,485 Quincy Adams, and he knew it, so he was effectively untouchable. 341 00:19:02,485 --> 00:19:04,975 Colleen Shogan: Do you think he was better suited as a member of 342 00:19:04,975 --> 00:19:07,645 Congress than as President of the United States? 343 00:19:07,645 --> 00:19:10,600 Certainly, at the end of his life, and I think early in his 344 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,710 life he would not have been. I think he got to the point where 345 00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:19,300 he just had no F's left to give, to use more modern parlance. He 346 00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:24,130 didn't have anything to lose, and he recognized the danger of 347 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:27,850 a potential civil war. He was warning against it. He opposed 348 00:19:27,850 --> 00:19:30,970 the Mexican-American war because he thought it would hasten these 349 00:19:30,970 --> 00:19:34,375 divisions, and so he just laid it out on the line. And so, I 350 00:19:34,375 --> 00:19:36,475 don't think he would have done that as a young man, because he 351 00:19:36,475 --> 00:19:38,965 would have had this whole career ahead of him. I think, as 352 00:19:38,965 --> 00:19:42,715 president, he was still trying to lead on behalf of all of the 353 00:19:42,715 --> 00:19:46,045 American people, and towards the end of his life, I think his 354 00:19:46,045 --> 00:19:51,805 cantankerous nature served him well as a fly in the ointment, 355 00:19:51,805 --> 00:19:54,325 or as you know, a burr in the side of the Southerners. 356 00:19:54,325 --> 00:19:56,725 Can you talk a little bit about his death? I mean, his death is 357 00:19:56,770 --> 00:19:57,520 extraordinary. 358 00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:00,121 Lindsay Chervinsky: Oh, it's so unbelievably dramatic, so he was 359 00:20:00,180 --> 00:20:03,788 giving a speech on the floor of the house, which today is the 360 00:20:03,847 --> 00:20:07,396 rotunda. If you go into the rotunda, you can see the plaques 361 00:20:07,456 --> 00:20:10,768 on the floor of where the various desks would have been. 362 00:20:10,827 --> 00:20:14,435 He was giving a speech, and he had a stroke and collapsed. He 363 00:20:14,494 --> 00:20:18,102 was moved into the speaker's office, which is now, I believe, 364 00:20:18,162 --> 00:20:21,651 the Women's Leadership Lounge. They still have the original 365 00:20:21,711 --> 00:20:25,319 couch, and you can sit on it. I'm like, no, no, no, don't sit 366 00:20:25,378 --> 00:20:28,454 on the couch. We need to preserve the couch. So they 367 00:20:28,513 --> 00:20:32,239 moved him to this couch, and he died, I think, the next day. So 368 00:20:32,298 --> 00:20:35,906 he died in Congress. He served almost his entire life. What I 369 00:20:35,965 --> 00:20:39,574 think is so amazing is when he died, his desk was a couple of 370 00:20:39,633 --> 00:20:43,241 desks away from Abraham Lincoln, so his career spans from the 371 00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:46,908 Battle of Bunker Hill to Abraham Lincoln in Congress. That is 372 00:20:46,967 --> 00:20:50,398 such an incredible scope of American history, and the fact 373 00:20:50,457 --> 00:20:53,829 that he was witness to it and a part of it is remarkable. 374 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,220 Colleen Shogan: Was Lincoln there when he died? I don't 375 00:20:56,220 --> 00:20:58,890 believe he was in the room, but I do think he was in Congress 376 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:01,950 when John Quincy Adams collapsed, 377 00:21:04,890 --> 00:21:07,215 Lindsay Chervinsky: So when we put John Quincy Adams in 378 00:21:07,215 --> 00:21:11,235 perspective, he sounds like a futurist in a way. What can we 379 00:21:11,235 --> 00:21:15,285 learn from John Quincy Adams as Americans today? I think there 380 00:21:15,285 --> 00:21:18,105 are two things we can learn: one, that it is totally 381 00:21:18,105 --> 00:21:22,095 acceptable to have a vision that is very forward-looking 382 00:21:22,095 --> 00:21:24,735 futurist, as you said. It turns out to be quite prescient and 383 00:21:24,735 --> 00:21:28,485 brilliant, and just because you can't achieve it in your life or 384 00:21:28,485 --> 00:21:31,590 in your moment doesn't mean that it's not right or worth fighting 385 00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:34,650 for, because as we talked about with infrastructure, the 386 00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:38,400 importance of union, the importance of rational and 387 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,130 pragmatic international engagement, these are all 388 00:21:41,130 --> 00:21:45,840 principles that we now celebrate as Americans, and he was just a 389 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,030 little bit ahead of his time. Doesn't mean he was wrong, it 390 00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:51,270 just means that he was moving a little too fast. The second 391 00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:56,085 piece is he offers a vision for our engagement in the world that 392 00:21:56,085 --> 00:21:59,625 I think is actually maybe what we need today, which is that we 393 00:21:59,625 --> 00:22:02,745 are not going to go seek out a ton of foreign wars that have 394 00:22:02,745 --> 00:22:05,655 nothing to do with our political interests or our national 395 00:22:05,655 --> 00:22:08,955 security, but it's also not isolationist. It's deeply 396 00:22:08,955 --> 00:22:13,875 pragmatic. It's very supportive of a intellectual and economic 397 00:22:13,875 --> 00:22:17,310 and emotional participation in the world. It's important to 398 00:22:17,310 --> 00:22:20,970 have allies, especially allies that share our principles, but 399 00:22:20,970 --> 00:22:24,270 that we can't force people to have our principles, or it will 400 00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:27,660 destroy us. That is, I think, a foreign policy that most 401 00:22:27,660 --> 00:22:31,410 Americans agree upon, and it's one that I think is quite 402 00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:33,150 relevant for the 21st century. 403 00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:34,710 Colleen Shogan: So, you've already written a book on John 404 00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:38,805 Adams, and you're writing a book right now on John Quincy Adams. 405 00:22:38,805 --> 00:22:41,985 Why the obsession with the Adamses, the Adams family? 406 00:22:41,985 --> 00:22:44,115 Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes. Well, the John Adams book came about 407 00:22:44,115 --> 00:22:46,995 because my first book was on George Washington, and sort of 408 00:22:46,995 --> 00:22:49,815 all the things he did to create the presidency. And then I 409 00:22:49,815 --> 00:22:52,245 started thinking about, okay, well, what happens when you're 410 00:22:52,245 --> 00:22:55,395 not George Washington? How does the presidency work for anyone 411 00:22:55,395 --> 00:22:58,905 else? And then I was, of course, very much shaped by january 6. 412 00:22:58,905 --> 00:23:01,710 Then I wanted to have a better understanding of how the 413 00:23:01,710 --> 00:23:04,470 peaceful transfer of power was created, and so that's where the 414 00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:08,610 John Adams book came from. And I've actually long loved John 415 00:23:08,610 --> 00:23:12,480 Quincy Adams. My dog's name is John Quincy Dog Adams. I wrote 416 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,420 in college on John Quincy Adams, so this book was, I think, a 417 00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:20,610 long time in coming, and it felt like a story that I think maybe 418 00:23:20,610 --> 00:23:23,820 needs to be shared in the next couple of years, and so it felt 419 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:26,655 like a relevant one. And then, as I was doing the research, I 420 00:23:26,655 --> 00:23:28,905 was like, oh, I actually need to write this story now, while I'm 421 00:23:28,905 --> 00:23:31,245 the executive director of the George Washington Presidential 422 00:23:31,245 --> 00:23:35,685 Library, because John Quincy Adams explicitly claims the 423 00:23:35,685 --> 00:23:39,195 mantle of being George Washington's ideological heir. 424 00:23:39,195 --> 00:23:42,555 As president, he offers an address in which he basically 425 00:23:42,555 --> 00:23:45,825 gives an updated farewell address, and he talks about 426 00:23:45,825 --> 00:23:49,980 Washington and what Washington would think in the 1820s that 427 00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:53,070 is, I think, an incredible legacy for Washington and for 428 00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:56,640 John Quincy Adams, and was a story that I felt like worked 429 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,050 very well with my day job. 430 00:23:58,050 --> 00:24:00,150 Colleen Shogan: Well, that brings us full circle, really, 431 00:24:00,150 --> 00:24:04,080 from that early phase of the American presidency, from George 432 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,100 Washington to John Quincy Adams. So, Lindsay Chervinsky, thank 433 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:10,230 you for joining us for In Pursuit. 434 00:24:10,275 --> 00:24:12,405 Lindsay Chervinsky: Thank you so much for having me 435 00:24:12,405 --> 00:24:14,715 Colleen Shogan: To read Lindsay Chervinsky's essay on John 436 00:24:14,715 --> 00:24:18,465 Quincy Adams, and to enjoy other great In Pursuit essays and 437 00:24:18,465 --> 00:24:24,435 podcasts, visit In pursuit.org in Pursuit with Colleen Shogan 438 00:24:24,435 --> 00:24:28,425 is a podcast by More Perfect. The series is written and 439 00:24:28,425 --> 00:24:34,290 produced by Jim Ambuske. Our theme music is Kleos by Charlie 440 00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:39,990 Ryan. Audio mixing by Curt Dahl of CD Squared. Please rate and 441 00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:44,790 review the show on your favorite podcast app and tell us which 442 00:24:44,790 --> 00:24:46,320 Americans inspire you.