1 00:00:01,410 --> 00:00:03,240 Matt Costello: Even though he does get the declaration of war, 2 00:00:04,350 --> 00:00:07,950 not all members of Congress and not the public are entirely 3 00:00:08,040 --> 00:00:10,950 convinced that either what has happened or that these 4 00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:14,220 boundaries are as the president has framed them. 5 00:00:14,570 --> 00:00:17,960 Colleen Shogan: In 1844, newspapers across the United 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:23,270 States asked a simple question: Who is James K. Polk? The 7 00:00:23,270 --> 00:00:27,380 Tennessee Democrat had emerged almost out of nowhere to win his 8 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:31,460 party's presidential nomination. Polk promised an ambitious 9 00:00:31,460 --> 00:00:35,390 agenda, one that included admitting Texas into the Union 10 00:00:35,390 --> 00:00:39,215 and greater territorial expansion, and he pledged to do 11 00:00:39,215 --> 00:00:43,955 it all in a single term. By some measure, Polk was among the most 12 00:00:43,955 --> 00:00:47,585 successful presidents in American history. He fulfilled 13 00:00:47,585 --> 00:00:52,055 almost all of his campaign promises. But as today's guest, 14 00:00:52,055 --> 00:00:55,745 Matthew Costello reminds us, those achievements came at a 15 00:00:55,745 --> 00:01:00,005 great cost to the nation. So, what can we learn from Polk's 16 00:01:00,050 --> 00:01:04,790 energetic administration? I'm Colleen Shogan, and this is In 17 00:01:04,790 --> 00:01:09,560 Pursuit, a podcast that explores lessons from America's past to 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:15,950 rate the history of America's future. Episode nine: James K. 19 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:23,030 Polk Manifests a Destiny. Matt Costello, welcome to In Pursuit. 20 00:01:23,075 --> 00:01:24,845 Matt Costello: Thank you, Colleen, for having me. 21 00:01:24,845 --> 00:01:28,505 Colleen Shogan: So, in 1844, newspapers across the United 22 00:01:28,505 --> 00:01:33,425 States asked the same question: Who is James K. Polk? So, we'll 23 00:01:33,425 --> 00:01:37,055 start with that question: Who is James Polk? 24 00:01:37,055 --> 00:01:38,885 Matt Costello: Well, a big part of the reason why people were 25 00:01:38,885 --> 00:01:43,265 asking that question was because he was a relative unknown beyond 26 00:01:43,265 --> 00:01:47,660 his brief tenure as Speaker of the House in Washington, he had 27 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:51,110 come from humble beginnings in North Carolina, later Tennessee, 28 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:54,140 became a state politician, and then he sort of ascended the 29 00:01:54,140 --> 00:01:57,470 ranks of the party to ultimately become Speaker of the House. He 30 00:01:57,470 --> 00:02:01,850 returns to Tennessee, he wins one race, loses two more, and 31 00:02:01,850 --> 00:02:04,700 really sort of was seen as on the decline of a political 32 00:02:04,700 --> 00:02:09,080 career. And so, how he somehow manages to become the Democratic 33 00:02:09,125 --> 00:02:13,055 presidential candidate in 1844 is really quite astounding. And 34 00:02:13,055 --> 00:02:16,415 so, many of his contemporaries at that time were simply asking, 35 00:02:16,415 --> 00:02:20,645 "Who is James K. Polk? They also sort of meant it as a slight in 36 00:02:20,645 --> 00:02:24,185 some ways, that nobody knew who he was, he couldn't even win 37 00:02:24,185 --> 00:02:26,975 elections in Tennessee. So certainly, he was not going to 38 00:02:26,975 --> 00:02:30,725 win the presidency. And lo and behold, today we know him as our 39 00:02:30,995 --> 00:02:32,375 11th president of the United States. 40 00:02:32,525 --> 00:02:34,400 Colleen Shogan: So it was meant to be derogatory, but then it 41 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,250 turned out to actually be something that Polk adopted. 42 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,010 Matt Costello: Yes, and we've seen this many times in American 43 00:02:39,010 --> 00:02:42,610 politics, where one side can create nicknames for another 44 00:02:42,610 --> 00:02:46,540 side, or they can create slights and insults. And ultimately, 45 00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:49,870 what happens is the individual and their supporters are able to 46 00:02:49,870 --> 00:02:53,800 co-opt it and turn it around and use it to their advantage. And 47 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,890 with James K. Polk, of course, the question was, "Who is James 48 00:02:56,890 --> 00:03:00,595 K. Polk? And his supporters, after he won, responded, "He is 49 00:03:00,595 --> 00:03:01,525 president of the United States." 50 00:03:01,525 --> 00:03:05,395 Colleen Shogan: So even before his career in politics, Polk 51 00:03:05,395 --> 00:03:09,445 purchased a number of plantations. So talk to us about 52 00:03:09,445 --> 00:03:13,465 that early part of his life. Why did he do that, and what was the 53 00:03:13,465 --> 00:03:18,205 role of slavery in that early part of his career? 54 00:03:18,205 --> 00:03:21,535 Matt Costello: Well, Polk grew up in North Carolina, when his 55 00:03:21,535 --> 00:03:26,170 father passes away in the 1820s, he receives more than two dozen 56 00:03:26,170 --> 00:03:29,260 enslaved people from his estate. So you know he had always been 57 00:03:29,260 --> 00:03:33,160 around slavery, not only in terms of his childhood and later 58 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,270 adult life, but he profited from it, as did his family. It was 59 00:03:37,270 --> 00:03:40,150 part of this move to the what they would call the frontier in 60 00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:44,800 Tennessee in those days, but that was one way to ascend the 61 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,115 social and political ladder. Was not only winning elections but 62 00:03:48,115 --> 00:03:51,445 also acquiring property. And in those days, it was enslaved 63 00:03:51,445 --> 00:03:56,245 people. And over time, he marries Sarah Polk. They acquire 64 00:03:56,245 --> 00:04:00,025 more people, more land, and ultimately he becomes a member, 65 00:04:00,025 --> 00:04:03,385 really sort of of the more affluent slaveholding gentry, he 66 00:04:03,385 --> 00:04:08,455 positions himself in Tennessee social circles as a benevolent 67 00:04:08,455 --> 00:04:11,530 slaveholder. Beyond all that, you have to keep in mind it's 68 00:04:11,530 --> 00:04:16,300 enslaved people that are really providing the means to sustain 69 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:19,060 the Polks, to help their livelihood, to help their 70 00:04:19,060 --> 00:04:22,330 economic well-being. And so, for James K. Polk, by the time he 71 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:24,910 becomes president of the United States, slavery has played a 72 00:04:24,910 --> 00:04:29,530 major role in fueling his rise on the political scene, and 73 00:04:29,530 --> 00:04:33,085 it'll play a huge part in his presidency as well. 74 00:04:33,085 --> 00:04:36,265 Colleen Shogan: When he starts his political career in 75 00:04:36,265 --> 00:04:41,575 Tennessee, he becomes a protege of Andrew Jackson. So, how does 76 00:04:41,575 --> 00:04:45,055 that happen, and what effect does that end up having on 77 00:04:45,055 --> 00:04:46,135 Polk's career? 78 00:04:46,135 --> 00:04:48,565 Matt Costello: Well, it has a fairly dramatic effect when you 79 00:04:48,565 --> 00:04:52,495 look at American politics in the 1820s. Nobody really looms 80 00:04:52,495 --> 00:04:57,040 larger than Andrew Jackson. First, losing the presidency in 81 00:04:57,370 --> 00:05:01,090 1824, of course, decrying this as The Corrupt Bargain. That was 82 00:05:01,090 --> 00:05:04,090 how John Quincy Adams was able to win. But there's no doubt in 83 00:05:04,090 --> 00:05:07,090 1828 when Jackson wins the presidency. And so those that 84 00:05:07,090 --> 00:05:10,150 are aligned and supporting Jackson also fall in line with 85 00:05:10,150 --> 00:05:13,030 all the different things that Jackson then promises after the 86 00:05:13,030 --> 00:05:16,960 fact. Quite an extensive patronage network. And so when 87 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,455 Polk is ascending the ladder in Tennessee state politics, and 88 00:05:20,455 --> 00:05:23,245 then later he's elected to Congress. Right around that same 89 00:05:23,245 --> 00:05:26,875 time, they're both Tennessee gentlemen. They're both 90 00:05:26,875 --> 00:05:29,605 slaveholders. They're both members. One is the leader of 91 00:05:29,605 --> 00:05:32,305 the Democratic Party. Another one is an up-and-comer in the 92 00:05:32,305 --> 00:05:36,355 Democratic Party. And so they develop this bond, in so much so 93 00:05:36,355 --> 00:05:40,105 that Jackson, who was famously called Old Hickory, Polk is 94 00:05:40,105 --> 00:05:43,270 nicknamed Young Hickory to sort of signify that relationship 95 00:05:43,270 --> 00:05:46,690 between those two, and then probably the parts where Jackson 96 00:05:46,690 --> 00:05:50,740 weighs in the most to help lift Polk in his climb is that it's 97 00:05:50,740 --> 00:05:54,340 really Jackson's support that helps get Polk the speaker's 98 00:05:54,340 --> 00:05:59,560 gavel in 1835. Needless to say, Polk wouldn't have climbed I 99 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,580 think as quickly or as rapidly as he did, without the patronage 100 00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:04,180 of Andrew Jackson. 101 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,200 Colleen Shogan: Another thing that Andrew Jackson does is that 102 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:12,510 he encourages James Polk to marry Sarah Polk. In your essay 103 00:06:12,630 --> 00:06:17,760 for *In Pursuit* you write that Sarah Polk has a tremendous 104 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:21,080 impact on James K. Polk's political career. 105 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,470 Matt Costello: We talk a lot about first ladies as, and I 106 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:26,870 think there's this misconception that they're just sort of 107 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:32,150 hostesses. They're more purely for hospitality reasons. But 108 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,960 Sarah Polk was a political operator. I mean, she kept up on 109 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:38,510 the news. She read newspapers. She was from a fairly 110 00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:42,340 well-educated, affluent background. She brings all of 111 00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:46,300 this into the marriage with James, and she also asserts more 112 00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:49,300 of herself into his political dealings. Now, remember, at this 113 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:53,050 time, women were not expected to be involved in American 114 00:06:53,110 --> 00:06:56,380 politics. There was very much this idea of politics is for men 115 00:06:56,830 --> 00:07:00,360 and domestic affairs is for women. But Sarah Polk is able to 116 00:07:00,420 --> 00:07:04,590 navigate those two worlds really quite seamlessly. She's giving 117 00:07:04,650 --> 00:07:07,830 input on speeches. She's giving him her feedback on policy 118 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,860 issues. There's even moments where she's really more or less 119 00:07:10,980 --> 00:07:13,170 controlling access to her husband. 120 00:07:13,349 --> 00:07:14,789 Colleen Shogan: Sounds like she was his chief of staff. 121 00:07:14,990 --> 00:07:16,220 Matt Costello: Yeah, in some ways. 122 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,440 Colleen Shogan: Maybe she was the first female chief of staff. 123 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:21,260 Matt Costello: You could define it that way. Yes, I mean Sarah 124 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,650 Polk is just one example of a litany of examples of not only 125 00:07:25,010 --> 00:07:27,500 women who were married to presidents, but also daughters, 126 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,910 daughters-in-law who also played similar roles in shaping and 127 00:07:32,030 --> 00:07:36,050 influencing either policy decisions or political positions 128 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,180 that I think have long been overlooked. 129 00:07:38,630 --> 00:07:41,920 Colleen Shogan: And Polk had to accept her role in that-I mean, 130 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:46,270 she could offer her opinion, but it had to be solicited by him. 131 00:07:46,750 --> 00:07:50,380 That indicates that Polk had some different opinions, at 132 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,330 least inwardly, for that time period. 133 00:07:52,690 --> 00:07:55,210 Matt Costello: Yeah, and I think James K. Polk also realized that 134 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:59,050 there was much greater benefit seeking out Sarah's counsel as 135 00:07:59,110 --> 00:08:02,640 opposed to simply going his own way, and I think that was an 136 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:06,090 extension of that longer relationship of his climb of the 137 00:08:06,210 --> 00:08:09,480 political ladder that he had oftentimes turned to Sarah for 138 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,750 advice or for her opinions, and so she plays a major role, 139 00:08:12,870 --> 00:08:16,170 especially when he's climbing in Tennessee because her family is 140 00:08:16,290 --> 00:08:19,710 so well connected; they're known. So she plays a major role 141 00:08:19,950 --> 00:08:20,540 in that ascent. 142 00:08:20,930 --> 00:08:24,110 Colleen Shogan: So he does climb the ladder in Tennessee, and he 143 00:08:24,350 --> 00:08:28,820 becomes speaker. But by the early 1840s, his career is hit 144 00:08:28,970 --> 00:08:32,030 the skids. So what happens, and how does he get out of it? 145 00:08:32,089 --> 00:08:33,829 Matt Costello: It's an excellent question because it seems as 146 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:37,879 though, as the story is going, Polk is on the rise, but it 147 00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:40,329 doesn't quite materialize that way. He decides to leave 148 00:08:40,449 --> 00:08:43,449 Congress to run to be governor of Tennessee, which is quite 149 00:08:43,509 --> 00:08:46,239 common. We see that often the 19th century, where members of 150 00:08:46,269 --> 00:08:48,309 Congress decide, you know what, I am going to try my luck in my 151 00:08:48,369 --> 00:08:50,619 home state. Maybe they'll like me more, and 152 00:08:50,830 --> 00:08:52,540 Colleen Shogan: you know, to be a chief executive versus a 153 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,070 legislator. There is a lot of reasons, 154 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,020 Matt Costello: and it also helps build and broaden that 155 00:08:56,020 --> 00:08:59,440 experience. And so he goes back to Tennessee. He wins one 156 00:08:59,470 --> 00:09:02,970 election, but then in the re-election campaign, he loses, 157 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,620 and then he runs again and loses a second time. And so, really, 158 00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:11,460 at this point, if you're not part of a current presidential 159 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:14,880 administration, you're no longer in Congress. You've lost 160 00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:18,150 multiple elections. I mean, you're starting to become stale. 161 00:09:18,330 --> 00:09:20,990 Really, people start to forget about you, or they start 162 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,920 thinking of you as incapable of winning, and so I think for 163 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,220 Polk, having lost twice in his own home state after being 164 00:09:28,310 --> 00:09:31,190 governor, after being speaker of the House, it certainly looked 165 00:09:31,220 --> 00:09:33,920 like to many that his rise was over. 166 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:37,340 Colleen Shogan: So it's 1844. What's going on in the country? 167 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,280 What are the major debates that the United States is facing? 168 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,340 Matt Costello: There's a few things. One of the biggest 169 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:45,280 issues that's facing the United States is the annexation of 170 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,620 Texas. Now, this had gone on for the last decade or so, but in a 171 00:09:50,620 --> 00:09:54,340 series of different conflicts and wars and competing land 172 00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:57,670 claims, you had at different points an independent Republic 173 00:09:57,670 --> 00:10:01,240 of Texas, and then a push for Texas. Statehood to be admitting 174 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,645 to the Union, while all happening at the same time as 175 00:10:04,645 --> 00:10:07,795 the rise of abolitionist sentiment is happening. More and 176 00:10:07,795 --> 00:10:11,125 more people who are opposed to slavery see this as a real 177 00:10:11,155 --> 00:10:15,145 problem because if you admit a state like Texas as a slave 178 00:10:15,145 --> 00:10:18,145 state, in theory, based on the Missouri Compromise, there 179 00:10:18,145 --> 00:10:21,835 should be a free state admitted to offset the inclusion of a 180 00:10:21,835 --> 00:10:22,285 balance 181 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:23,750 Colleen Shogan: rule, right? Correct. But if 182 00:10:24,380 --> 00:10:26,750 Matt Costello: you don't have that balance, there's obviously 183 00:10:26,780 --> 00:10:30,230 a concern that now Congress will be further imbalanced towards 184 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,350 states that permit slavery, and that this will really change the 185 00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:38,150 dynamics of how Congress works. And so that is sort of the 186 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,320 biggest pressing issue. It's something that envelopes Martin 187 00:10:41,410 --> 00:10:44,560 Van Buren towards the end of his administration, he of course 188 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,530 steps forward as the favored candidate initially of the 189 00:10:47,530 --> 00:10:52,210 Democratic Party in 1844. But here we are in 1844. He had 190 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:54,850 opposed annexation of Texas, and so that members of the 191 00:10:54,910 --> 00:10:57,250 Democratic Party, particularly those from the South and the 192 00:10:57,250 --> 00:11:01,470 West, do not see Van Buren as their preferred candidate of 193 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:01,770 choice. 194 00:11:02,190 --> 00:11:03,960 Colleen Shogan: You know, if you take a history course or a 195 00:11:04,020 --> 00:11:07,380 political science course on the presidency, you will learn that 196 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,280 James K. Polk is the first dark horse candidate for the 197 00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:14,790 presidency in American history. What does that mean? 198 00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:17,340 Matt Costello: Well, the origins of the term actually go back to 199 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,070 horse racing, and the idea there was to call someone a dark horse 200 00:11:22,490 --> 00:11:25,460 was essentially a horse that when you were betting you didn't 201 00:11:25,490 --> 00:11:28,460 anticipate them to win the race. We have a slew of different 202 00:11:28,490 --> 00:11:31,400 terms to describe this individual or person or sports 203 00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:35,150 team today, but dark horse was really more of a race betting 204 00:11:35,330 --> 00:11:39,020 term, and then it gets applied to James K. Polk, and then 205 00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:41,770 there's a subsequent slew of presidents that come through 206 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:44,770 that achieve a similar status. These candidates who really sort 207 00:11:44,770 --> 00:11:48,100 of come out of nowhere, or they come from smaller states that 208 00:11:48,130 --> 00:11:50,770 the party insiders did not anticipate them capturing the 209 00:11:50,860 --> 00:11:55,900 nomination. And so, because James K. Polk is so unexpected, 210 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,660 this is why they refer to him as the dark horse candidate. 211 00:11:59,050 --> 00:12:01,080 Colleen Shogan: And he's able to secure the nomination at the 212 00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:01,890 party convention. 213 00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:04,800 Matt Costello: Yes, I also should say that he himself isn't 214 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:08,850 really securing the nomination. He gets a big push from people 215 00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:12,870 who have connections to Andrew Jackson, and when Jackson makes 216 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,960 it clear that his favorite candidate is Polk as opposed to 217 00:12:16,260 --> 00:12:19,680 Van Buren, well, the dominoes fall into place, and then all of 218 00:12:19,710 --> 00:12:23,780 a sudden, this twice election losing governor from Tennessee 219 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,420 is now the Democratic Party's nominee for the election of 220 00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:27,260 1844. 221 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:29,960 Colleen Shogan: What does he promise to do if he's elected 222 00:12:30,020 --> 00:12:30,440 president? 223 00:12:30,810 --> 00:12:34,140 Matt Costello: Well, he makes several key promises. It makes 224 00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:36,780 sense that this platform would resonate with the Democratic 225 00:12:36,780 --> 00:12:40,230 Party, particularly in the South and in the West. The big one is 226 00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:44,130 that he really wants to settle the annexation of Texas. Now, as 227 00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:47,010 we get closer to him taking office, this will be something 228 00:12:47,010 --> 00:12:50,130 that Congress does with outgoing President John Tyler. But the 229 00:12:50,130 --> 00:12:53,580 annexation of Texas and pushing forward on Texas 230 00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:57,195 statehood-that's a big one. He wants to acquire more territory 231 00:12:57,195 --> 00:12:59,355 in the West, specifically California. 232 00:12:59,355 --> 00:13:00,795 Colleen Shogan: Is this the Manifest Destiny? 233 00:13:00,795 --> 00:13:03,315 Matt Costello: Yes, and Manifest Destiny. I should say that this 234 00:13:03,315 --> 00:13:07,665 idea of expansionism is not a new one. It's been going on for 235 00:13:07,665 --> 00:13:10,965 you know you could argue centuries, really, in North 236 00:13:10,965 --> 00:13:13,875 America with colonists and settlers, and then later 237 00:13:13,875 --> 00:13:17,670 Americans going west and pushing Native Americans really off 238 00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:21,270 their lands and out of the way to acquire more territory. And 239 00:13:21,270 --> 00:13:25,230 with Polk, he really sees the future of the United States out 240 00:13:25,230 --> 00:13:29,610 west, all the way to the Pacific Ocean. And so, between the Texas 241 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:32,220 question, acquiring more territory in the West, which 242 00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:35,100 includes California, settling the dispute with Great Britain 243 00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:38,580 and Oregon Territory, he also wants to establish a separate, 244 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:42,435 independent treasury, and he wants to reduce tariffs, so it's 245 00:13:42,435 --> 00:13:47,295 sort of a mix of different economic agenda items. But also, 246 00:13:47,295 --> 00:13:52,035 he sees expansion as critical to the future of the United States. 247 00:13:52,035 --> 00:13:55,395 And he makes these promises. And say what you will about James K. 248 00:13:55,395 --> 00:13:59,055 Polk, he gets them all enacted. He gets them all done in one 249 00:13:59,055 --> 00:13:59,745 term. 250 00:13:59,745 --> 00:14:02,055 Colleen Shogan: And he also promises only to serve one term. 251 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:03,570 Now, why would he do that? 252 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:06,600 Matt Costello: It's a great question. Most politicians would 253 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,610 not campaign and say, "I'm.." 254 00:14:08,610 --> 00:14:10,020 Colleen Shogan: because you're immediately a lame duck. 255 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:12,510 Matt Costello: Right. If I'm elected, I will only serve one 256 00:14:12,510 --> 00:14:16,740 term, and these are the things I will do. It was shockingly 257 00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:20,010 honest. You couldn't tell if he was actually being genuine about 258 00:14:20,010 --> 00:14:23,820 these things, or he was hoping to get this, almost like he's a 259 00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:26,640 disinterested leader. He's only going to serve this amount of 260 00:14:26,685 --> 00:14:29,085 time, do this amount of things, and then leave. It's a 261 00:14:29,085 --> 00:14:31,305 remarkable statement because it's not one that I think 262 00:14:31,305 --> 00:14:34,485 politicians certainly would make today. But you know, Polk is a 263 00:14:34,485 --> 00:14:38,415 relatively young man. He also believes that he can get these 264 00:14:38,415 --> 00:14:40,035 things done in a single term. 265 00:14:40,035 --> 00:14:42,075 Colleen Shogan: He's only in his 40s when he's elected, correct? 266 00:14:42,075 --> 00:14:44,175 Matt Costello: Yeah, I believe he's 49 when you say. I mean, at 267 00:14:44,175 --> 00:14:46,815 this point in time, he's the youngest person to serve as 268 00:14:46,815 --> 00:14:47,625 president of the United States. 269 00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:50,520 Colleen Shogan: He's like the John Kennedy of the 1840s 270 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,930 Matt Costello: Yeah, and I think much like Kennedy, he also 271 00:14:53,050 --> 00:14:57,040 talked at this vision of progress. Now, very different 272 00:14:57,070 --> 00:14:58,240 visions of progress, right? 273 00:14:58,239 --> 00:14:58,689 Colleen Shogan: Different vision. 274 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,140 Matt Costello: But in Polk's time. You know the progress for 275 00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:03,870 the United States of America was creating a continental nation 276 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:07,290 and really sort of pushing the British or settling the British 277 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:10,920 question more in the Northwest, acquiring additional territory 278 00:15:11,070 --> 00:15:14,580 from Mexico and really sort of securing this expansion of 279 00:15:14,610 --> 00:15:17,640 territory to open up further economic opportunities for 280 00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:21,440 Americans. And so I think most people thought there's no way 281 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,930 he's only going to serve one time. I'm I'm sure he'll find a 282 00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:25,790 way to turn. But how would he get 283 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:27,200 Colleen Shogan: all this done? Right, right, right. And how 284 00:15:27,410 --> 00:15:29,630 Matt Costello: and how could he honestly do all these really 285 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:33,170 major economic and foreign policy things? But he's able to 286 00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:35,090 do it in four years, which is pretty remarkable. 287 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,240 Colleen Shogan: So explain to us the contest in the border 288 00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:47,650 between Texas, the United States, and Mexico, and what 289 00:15:47,710 --> 00:15:53,530 does Polk do to provoke really a war that ends up leading to the 290 00:15:53,770 --> 00:15:55,180 expansion that you're talking about? 291 00:15:55,540 --> 00:15:57,610 Matt Costello: So I mentioned earlier that President John 292 00:15:57,730 --> 00:16:01,590 Tyler agrees to the resolution by Congress to the annexation of 293 00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:05,550 Texas. The problem is, is that the United States and Mexico 294 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,880 have different ideas of where that boundary ultimately ends, 295 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:12,510 and because this isn't agreed upon in a treaty, instead what 296 00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:15,330 you have is two sovereign countries disagreeing about 297 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,820 exactly where one ends and the other begins. 298 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,860 Colleen Shogan: That sounds like a recipe for disaster. 299 00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:23,460 Matt Costello: It really is, and Polk does attempt through 300 00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:27,810 diplomatic means first to try to get Mexico to agree to those 301 00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:31,350 terms. He does send an ambassador to Mexico City to try 302 00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:33,990 to see if there's any kind of negotiation that could happen, 303 00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:38,640 but ultimately Mexico doesn't recognize that boundary. And 304 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,925 what Polk decides to do next-it was controversial, even in his 305 00:16:41,925 --> 00:16:45,825 own time, but certainly controversial today. He decides 306 00:16:45,825 --> 00:16:49,155 to order American troops into the contested territory. 307 00:16:49,155 --> 00:16:51,585 Colleen Shogan: It's contested, but he says it's he says it's 308 00:16:51,585 --> 00:16:53,085 American soil, right? 309 00:16:53,085 --> 00:16:57,285 Matt Costello: He says we annexed this territory, and the 310 00:16:57,285 --> 00:17:00,525 outer boundary of the United States of America is now the Rio 311 00:17:00,525 --> 00:17:04,005 Grande River, Mexico doesn't see it that way. They say that 312 00:17:04,050 --> 00:17:06,690 actually it's a little bit further north in the Nusselt 313 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:09,900 River. So we have a disagreement about exactly where these two 314 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:14,040 sovereign nations end. And so because Polk then sends troops 315 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,150 into that territory, Mexico interprets it as an invasion, 316 00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:21,960 and they attack, and there's a skirmish, and pretty soon Polk 317 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,810 is asking Congress for a declaration of war against 318 00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:25,620 Mexico 319 00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:28,695 Colleen Shogan: Because American blood has been shed on American 320 00:17:28,695 --> 00:17:29,115 soil. 321 00:17:29,115 --> 00:17:32,475 Matt Costello: Yep, and he sees it now as it is a war of 322 00:17:32,475 --> 00:17:36,525 defense, a war of patriotism, a war to protect the United 323 00:17:36,525 --> 00:17:38,265 States. Now, not it's 324 00:17:38,265 --> 00:17:39,735 Colleen Shogan: almost a total reframe. 325 00:17:39,735 --> 00:17:41,745 Matt Costello: Not everybody sees it that way. Even though he 326 00:17:41,745 --> 00:17:46,035 does get the declaration of war, not all members of Congress and 327 00:17:46,035 --> 00:17:49,005 not the public are entirely convinced that either what has 328 00:17:49,005 --> 00:17:52,380 happened or that these boundaries are as the president 329 00:17:52,380 --> 00:17:53,850 has framed them, 330 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,500 Colleen Shogan: including Abraham Lincoln. 331 00:17:55,530 --> 00:17:58,380 Matt Costello: Yeah, and Lincoln is serving in Congress at the 332 00:17:58,380 --> 00:18:02,760 time, and he continuously keeps putting up a resolution, which 333 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,940 famously today we call the spot resolution, and it's not about 334 00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:08,520 getting a spot out of clothing. It's more about show me the 335 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,660 exact spot where American blood was spilled on American soil. 336 00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:15,795 Nobody's contesting that American blood was spilled, but 337 00:18:15,795 --> 00:18:20,325 Lincoln's point is show us the spot on American soil because 338 00:18:20,325 --> 00:18:24,255 Lincoln knows this is contested territory, and that really Polk 339 00:18:24,255 --> 00:18:28,755 has provoked this escalation of a conflict by sending American 340 00:18:28,755 --> 00:18:30,825 troops into contested territory. 341 00:18:30,825 --> 00:18:32,475 Colleen Shogan: One of the things that fascinates me about 342 00:18:32,475 --> 00:18:34,905 Polk is that just like I mentioned that Sarah Polk could 343 00:18:34,905 --> 00:18:38,670 be considered the first chief of staff, I think that James Polk 344 00:18:38,670 --> 00:18:42,150 could be considered the first director of the Office of 345 00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:45,390 Management and Budget, because he does an extraordinary thing 346 00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:49,590 when he's president. He lowers the tariff, so he lowers taxes. 347 00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:53,160 The tariff is really equates to what taxation is in the United 348 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,460 States at that point in time. He lowers the taxes, and he also 349 00:18:56,460 --> 00:19:01,125 wages a fairly expensive Mexican War. But he manages to do that 350 00:19:01,125 --> 00:19:05,595 through this really effective control of the budget, Polk is 351 00:19:05,595 --> 00:19:08,565 able to actually partially pay for the war through the issuing 352 00:19:08,565 --> 00:19:12,105 of bonds. So this idea that the government could issue bonds and 353 00:19:12,105 --> 00:19:15,345 pay back those bonds with interest at a later date-it was 354 00:19:15,345 --> 00:19:19,035 sort of a creative way to get around the typical congressional 355 00:19:19,035 --> 00:19:22,305 appropriations process. Now further on, Congress does 356 00:19:22,305 --> 00:19:25,560 appropriate money for the war, but this is a way to sort of 357 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:26,970 initially get around these things. What's fascinating about 358 00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:27,630 this is that it's something that we 359 00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:29,400 Matt Costello: What's fascinating about this is that 360 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,410 it's something that we get accustomed to seeing presidents 361 00:19:31,410 --> 00:19:35,010 do time and time again in instances of war, because 362 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:37,620 Congress isn't always immediately on board. I mean, 363 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:41,100 they might agree and issue a declaration of war, but the 364 00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:43,980 appropriations don't always immediately hit that quickly, 365 00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:48,705 and so he creates this precedent that presidents can have greater 366 00:19:48,705 --> 00:19:52,275 flexibility when it comes to things like appropriations and 367 00:19:52,275 --> 00:19:56,265 funding, especially in a moment of crisis, conflict, or war. 368 00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:59,270 Colleen Shogan: When I was in graduate school, I wrote a short 369 00:19:59,270 --> 00:20:03,860 paper. On centralization and politicization in the 19th 370 00:20:03,860 --> 00:20:08,930 century, and I found in Polk's diaries what he would do. He 371 00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:12,050 stayed in Washington D.C. in the summer, which absolutely no one 372 00:20:12,050 --> 00:20:15,290 did. No one, and I think people would not appreciate that the 373 00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:18,170 budgeting process in the United States was not centralized in 374 00:20:18,170 --> 00:20:22,895 any way the way that it is that we appreciate today, so he would 375 00:20:22,895 --> 00:20:26,585 call all of these different bureau chiefs into his office, 376 00:20:26,585 --> 00:20:30,275 and it was very hot. It was 80-590, degrees, no air 377 00:20:30,275 --> 00:20:34,385 conditioning, and he would make them stand in front of him in 378 00:20:34,385 --> 00:20:36,935 the White House, and they were not allowed to sit. He was 379 00:20:36,935 --> 00:20:39,995 allowed to sit, but they were not allowed to sit, and he would 380 00:20:39,995 --> 00:20:43,910 go through their budget line by line and make them justify every 381 00:20:43,910 --> 00:20:48,680 line in their budget until many of them just simply gave up and 382 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,340 said, "Okay, I'll accept the cuts that you want to make." So 383 00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:56,540 once again, this was another way in which he was able to lower 384 00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:59,630 the tariff and also finance the war. 385 00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:01,820 Matt Costello: Well, yeah, and that story reminds me of you 386 00:21:01,820 --> 00:21:04,730 know some biographers have referred to Polk as what we 387 00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:07,055 think of today as like a workaholic. I mean, he was 388 00:21:07,055 --> 00:21:10,805 somebody who was up early. He didn't take breaks. Is this part 389 00:21:10,805 --> 00:21:14,315 of growing up? You know, he was much more sickly as a child. He 390 00:21:14,315 --> 00:21:18,785 had a lot of illnesses, and so was this more like he was really 391 00:21:18,785 --> 00:21:22,385 trying to take advantage of the time he had while he had it, but 392 00:21:22,385 --> 00:21:26,825 he worked long hours. He did not shy away from getting into the 393 00:21:26,825 --> 00:21:30,140 weeds, whether it was a policy position, whether it was 394 00:21:30,140 --> 00:21:35,120 appropriations. He really would dive into these things, and it 395 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:38,570 makes also in my mind a lot of sense that if, on one hand, 396 00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:44,180 you're trying to rally support for a war that is controversial, 397 00:21:44,180 --> 00:21:47,900 while at the same time fulfill another promise to say reduce 398 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:50,000 the tariff, well, you're going to have to look at government 399 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,765 spending. You can't wage war and be spending money there without 400 00:21:53,765 --> 00:21:55,265 making reductions somewhere else. 401 00:21:55,265 --> 00:21:57,605 Colleen Shogan: And Polk doesn't last too long after his 402 00:21:57,605 --> 00:22:00,935 presidency is done. He dies a few months later. Is that right? 403 00:22:00,935 --> 00:22:05,045 Matt Costello: Yeah, they leave the White House in 1849. I 404 00:22:05,045 --> 00:22:08,075 believe they go down to New Orleans, and then they go up the 405 00:22:08,075 --> 00:22:10,925 Mississippi River back to Tennessee. But it's fascinating. 406 00:22:10,925 --> 00:22:14,540 You look at Polk's diary, and he talks about coming across all 407 00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:18,590 these different outbreaks of cholera and other waterborne 408 00:22:18,620 --> 00:22:22,310 illness outbreaks, and ultimately, it is cholera that 409 00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:26,120 he contracts, and he ends up dying. It's only a few months 410 00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:27,290 after he leaves the presidency. 411 00:22:27,589 --> 00:22:30,109 Colleen Shogan: So, if you look at James K. Polk's presidency, 412 00:22:30,169 --> 00:22:33,559 you could say, as we've gone over in this discussion, a lot 413 00:22:33,829 --> 00:22:37,579 of successes in that he fulfilled the promises that he 414 00:22:37,729 --> 00:22:41,289 made when he campaigned, or when he was at least the nominee for 415 00:22:41,379 --> 00:22:44,949 president. But what were the long-term ramifications or 416 00:22:45,009 --> 00:22:46,839 effects of some of his decisions? 417 00:22:47,469 --> 00:22:48,759 Matt Costello: Yeah, you're absolutely right. If we were 418 00:22:48,849 --> 00:22:52,479 looking at this purely in terms of a leader who sets an agenda, 419 00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:57,309 makes promises, and he keeps them, one could argue that James 420 00:22:57,369 --> 00:23:00,399 K. Polk was probably one of our more successful presidents. 421 00:23:01,059 --> 00:23:04,199 However, he's not really remembered that way today. So 422 00:23:04,199 --> 00:23:07,559 why is that? Well, a big part of it is because of what comes 423 00:23:07,679 --> 00:23:10,559 after Polk. Now he doesn't live very long, like we talked about. 424 00:23:10,889 --> 00:23:13,259 But it's interesting, though. Sarah Polk lives for many years. 425 00:23:13,829 --> 00:23:17,249 She lives to see the Civil War, and she lives to see the 426 00:23:17,399 --> 00:23:21,259 consequences of some of these policy decisions. What I argue 427 00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:25,159 in the essay is that Polk accelerates the road to the 428 00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:28,009 Civil War, and that these decisions-the expansion of the 429 00:23:28,009 --> 00:23:31,729 United States, continuing to add new territory without having a 430 00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:36,199 real solution about slavery in the West-continues to add fuel 431 00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:40,249 to this fire. And because while we can say that Polk is partly 432 00:23:40,339 --> 00:23:43,569 responsible for that road, none of his successors are really 433 00:23:43,749 --> 00:23:47,469 able to steer the country out of it. And ultimately, what we have 434 00:23:47,979 --> 00:23:51,609 is a civil war. We have two warring sides. Ultimately, more 435 00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:55,449 than 600,000 Americans will lose their lives in the civil war. 436 00:23:56,049 --> 00:23:59,169 And even then, you feel the ramifications of the civil war 437 00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:02,879 well beyond the time that it happens, and so I think yes, 438 00:24:03,089 --> 00:24:05,999 Polk was successful in negotiating the treaty with 439 00:24:06,029 --> 00:24:09,059 Great Britain and settling the Oregon Territory. He acquired 440 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,389 California, which you could argue was a very valuable 441 00:24:12,659 --> 00:24:15,929 acquisition for the United States in the long term. Just 442 00:24:15,929 --> 00:24:18,059 when you're thinking about things like the Gold Rush and 443 00:24:18,539 --> 00:24:21,739 World War II and having to send troops, I mean, there's a lot 444 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:25,789 just with acquiring California, but it's a move that ultimately 445 00:24:25,939 --> 00:24:29,749 will create tremendous strain with the country of Mexico. It 446 00:24:29,959 --> 00:24:34,189 displaces Native Americans even further, not only from having 447 00:24:34,249 --> 00:24:37,609 them been moved once west of the Mississippi, but now further 448 00:24:37,699 --> 00:24:41,389 crowded into reservations and Indian Territory, and ultimately 449 00:24:41,779 --> 00:24:45,789 it really hardens politics around the issue of slavery and 450 00:24:45,819 --> 00:24:49,119 its expansion. And because those things happen as a result of 451 00:24:49,209 --> 00:24:51,879 this expansion during the Mexican-American War, we 452 00:24:52,029 --> 00:24:52,959 ultimately end up with a war. 453 00:24:58,090 --> 00:25:01,020 Colleen Shogan: In pursuit is trying to find rel. Lessons in 454 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,910 our nation's history. So when we look at James K. Polk, what can 455 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:10,380 we learn from his leadership and his presidency that would be 456 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:11,430 relevant to us today? 457 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:14,460 Matt Costello: Well, a few things. I think one, there is 458 00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:18,300 something to appreciate and admire about Polk in that he was 459 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:21,860 a dark horse candidate. Nobody expected him, or maybe nobody 460 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,090 really truly valued him in that capacity. But not only was he 461 00:25:26,210 --> 00:25:30,200 able to capture the nomination, but he was able to lay out a 462 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:34,400 very clear agenda and accomplish an agenda. There's value in 463 00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:38,360 that. At the same time, we also have to acknowledge that we 464 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,170 shouldn't measure presidential success solely on who wins 465 00:25:41,230 --> 00:25:45,040 elections and whether or not they achieve the agenda items 466 00:25:45,070 --> 00:25:47,800 that they set out or the promises that they make, you 467 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:52,630 know, success of a presidency is much more than that. And 468 00:25:53,050 --> 00:25:56,290 oftentimes we think of the presidency in those terms, which 469 00:25:56,530 --> 00:26:00,090 is very short term. It's very contemporary, and then when we 470 00:26:00,180 --> 00:26:03,660 start to think more about James K. Polk's impact beyond, say, 471 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,340 1849 when he dies. What we see is that there were devastating, 472 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,110 tragic consequences for some of his policy decisions. He didn't 473 00:26:13,170 --> 00:26:16,530 live long enough to actually see some of these things, and 474 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,950 ultimately, you can't help but feel as though his actions or 475 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,210 inactions at times helped contribute to setting this 476 00:26:23,270 --> 00:26:24,440 country on the road to civil war. 477 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:27,020 Colleen Shogan: Matt Costello, thank you so much for joining us 478 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,520 today on In Pursuit. 479 00:26:29,270 --> 00:26:29,900 Matt Costello: Thank you for having me. 480 00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:34,260 Colleen Shogan: To read Matthew Costello's essay on James Polk 481 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:37,860 and to enjoy other great In Pursuit essays and podcasts, 482 00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:42,960 visit inpursuit.org. In Pursuit with Colleen Shogan is a podcast 483 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,430 by More Perfect. The series is written and produced by Jim 484 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:53,160 Ambuske. Production services provided by Stand Together. Our 485 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,785 theme music is Kleos by Charlie Ryan. Audio mixing by Curt Dahl 486 00:26:58,815 --> 00:27:03,345 of CD Squared. Please rate and review the show on your favorite 487 00:27:03,345 --> 00:27:07,845 podcast app, and tell us which Americans inspire you.