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Karin Wulf: Even later in her
life, people often remarked when

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she was first lady that she
dressed rather simply, and I

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think that's very self
conscious. She doesn't want to

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look too fancy, because it's a
balancing act, trying to be

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first lady, but not trying to
pretend that you're being the

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queen or something. But the
fabric of her clothing was

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exquisite, always, of the finest
quality.

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Colleen Shogan: In early May
1789, Martha Washington

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finalized the details of a long
journey ahead. In a few weeks

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time, she would set out from her
home in Mount Vernon in Virginia

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and head north to New York City.
There she would join her

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husband, George, the nation's
first president, in the first

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capital of the United States.
Martha wasn't exactly looking

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forward to her new life as the
first first lady. She longed to

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remain at Mount Vernon and live
in retirement with her husband

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and grandchildren, but George
had answered the nation's call,

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and she understood his sense of
duty more than most. There was

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also no precedent for her new
role, and as today's guest, Dr.

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Karin Wulf writes, Martha knew
that the eyes of the nation were

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upon her. So what can we learn
then from Martha Washington's

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leap into the dark. I'm Colleen
Shogan, and this is In Pursuit a

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podcast that explores lessons
from America's past to write the

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history of America's future.
Episode Two: "Martha

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Washington's Frst Steps."

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Karin Wulf, Welcome to In
Pursuit.

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Karin Wulf: Thank you so much,
Colleen, it's good to be with

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you.

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Colleen Shogan: So we're going
to be talking about Martha

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Washington this morning. Now,
she never expected to become the

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first lady of a new nation. As a
very young and wealthy Virginia

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woman, what path did she expect
to follow earlier in her life?

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Karin Wulf: I love that you
started with that question in

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part because I think Martha
Washington's story and George

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Washington's story is such a
Virginia story. I'm a native of

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Virginia. Virginians tend to
think that Virginia is the total

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of early American history, but
this is really a story rooted in

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Virginia and to understand
Martha's early life and the path

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towards marrying George
Washington, and the path they

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ultimately followed that led to
the presidency, you have to

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understand early Virginia and
her expectation, not that she

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would be the First Lady of the
United States, which didn't

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exist, but that she would
probably be the mistress of a

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modest Virginia plantation, or
if she had ambitions that she

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would run a larger plantation.
She came from a family that was

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relatively modest by some
standards, but very wealthy by

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others. She would have managed
enslaved people, and she would

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have managed household
resources, and she would have

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expected to raise children not
to be the first lady of a new

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nation.

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Colleen Shogan: So genealogy is
very important, as you

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mentioned, to early Americans.
And in fact, you've written a

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new book entitled Lineage on the
topic. So tell us about Martha

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Washington. How did she view
genealogy? Was this important to

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her?

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Karin Wulf: Genealogy was so
important to Martha Washington's

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life as it was to all people who
lived in British America, in

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part because genealogy is about
the relationship between

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property and family, and Martha
Washington's whole life is

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structured around precisely that
relationship of property and

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family. So whether she was
thinking about the family that

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she was born into, or the first
family she was married into, or

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the second family she was
married into, because George

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Washington was her second
husband, she was always thinking

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about and understanding that her
position owed everything to the

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people that she was descended
from. So let me give you just

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one example. Her first husband,
Daniel Parke Custis, was a child

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of incredible privilege of a
much wealthier family than

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Martha's. He was much older than
she was, and his father had a

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child by an enslaved woman, and
also his father had probably his

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own half brother in the
Caribbean. This is a family

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through whom property in people
as well as property in land,

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meant a lot to what you
inherited, whether you inherited

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your own personal freedom or you
inherited property yourself. So

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she would have been enormously
attuned to and understood the

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significance of her family
relationships. It structured her

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life.

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Colleen Shogan: Her first
husband, as you mentioned,

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Daniel perk Custis. What happens
to him actually impacts what

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happens to Martha Washington
later in her life. He dies in

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1757, how does this affect
Martha Washington? What does it

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mean for her to be a widow at a
fairly young age.

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Karin Wulf: Her early life is so
compact, I think sometimes it's

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easy to miss the fact that she
gets married, and within six,

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seven years, she's had four
children, two of whom died, and

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her husband's dead. And then she
meets George Washington, or she

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probably knows him a little bit
anyway, and in another year,

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she's remarried to him. It's
very compressed, I think, from

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our perspective. But when her
husband dies, she is appointed

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the executor of his estate,
which means she's in charge of

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distributing to his heirs or
managing for his heirs, because

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they're they're two little kids,
all of the property, and it's

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extensive. It's like multiple
households and many, many

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hundreds of acres, many dozens
of enslaved people. And it's not

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unusual in Virginia for a young
widow to actually be the

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executor to manage that kind of
property after the death of

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someone. Not everyone does it,
but it would have been a lot.

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And one of the things we see in
Martha Washington's papers, what

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little survives actually, is how
intense that management of

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Daniel Parke Custis estate was.
She's writing to London. She's

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writing to people in Virginia.
Merchants in Williamsburg are

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writing to her and reminding her
that her husband owes the money,

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and they're really hoping that
she's going to be able to settle

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the estate and pay out. It's a
really complex financial and

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organizational undertaking for
her, and she seems to do it

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pretty well.

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Colleen Shogan: How does that
affect our conception of gender?

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In the 1750s that a woman is
able to be entrusted with this

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responsibility? Essentially,
she's running a small business.

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Karin Wulf: Yeah,
absolutely.There's so many ways

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in which I think we misconceive
what it meant for women who were

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part of this particular wealthy
Virginia elite, what was

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expected of them, what they did
on a day to day basis, even the

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fact that we often don't think
about women as Enslavers, that

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they managed property in people,
and she did, and part of that

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large business was enslaving
people and keeping them working

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on these plantations in slavery,
but it also meant managing

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incredibly sophisticated
financial instruments, because

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this is an economy of debt and
credit, in which people are

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always operating on the basis of
how much debt they can

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accumulate and how much debt
They can extend to others. It is

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a very much a fluid reputation
based debt and credit economy,

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and she had to understand all of
those different pieces of that

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in order to be able to function,
both when she was married and

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then also after her husband
died, when she was the executor

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of his estate. So she had to be
attuned, as I said before, to

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the important relationship
between family and property, but

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also to the complexity of the
financial situation in which

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they lived.

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Colleen Shogan: Martha
Washington meets George

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Washington. She is one of the
wealthiest young widows in early

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America. Why did they get
together? Why did they get

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married? Do we know from a
history, did they marry because

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of a union of wealth? Did they
marry because they fell in love?

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Was it both? What do we know?

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Karin Wulf: We don't know for
sure, but it seems like the

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answer is yes, that they married
for love, and they absolutely

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married for money, because you
wouldn't otherwise, it was very

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awkward for people not to marry
within people of their own

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status. In fact, in her first
marriage, her first husband's

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father tried to resist their
marriage, saying that she didn't

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bring enough money, frankly, to
the Union for George Washington,

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she would have been a great
catch because of that property.

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But you know, there's a long
tradition in early Virginia, of

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men doing well by marrying
wealthy women. And in fact, if

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we look at all of the Virginia
like senior politicians and

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those planters who become very
wealthy, they all do well, and

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that includes Washington's
ancestors. They do well by

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marrying wealthy women. Wealthy
women are a great source of

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power for men. So yes, of
course, they married because

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this was a union of assets, as
it were. But there's plenty to

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suggest that George Washington
was kind of dishy, quite

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handsome and quite a strange

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Colleen Shogan: thing, like the
George Clooney of the 1750s I

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don't know. I don't know. I'm
not sure what to compare him to.

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Karin Wulf: I know, right? Like
very striking, very handsome,

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and a real kind of, you know,
people talk about Washington,

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when he was the general, that he
had such an air of command, but

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he had an air about him, even as
a courting suitor. He's very

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tall, he's very handsome, and at
that point, he still had his

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teeth too. So that seems
important, but she's also very

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attractive. We don't have a lot
of portraits of her. And, you

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know, people are always
describing women, right? It's so

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annoying, but they do, and they
tell us, and we also know this

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from material evidence, like
some of her surviving clothing.

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She was very petite. She had
dark brown hair. She was very

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smiley, I guess we might say
now, she was curvy. Later,

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people said very kind of
uncharitably that she was a

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little plump. But she was curvy
and lively and just by all

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accounts, quite attractive, and
they seemed to enjoy one another

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a lot. So sure affection growing
into love, or maybe even a spark

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right from the start. But I
think it had to meet that

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threshold first. You know, was
this a responsible union of

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people of similar or kind of
simpatico financial situation.

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Colleen Shogan: We know that
Martha Washington, she

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eventually burns almost all of
her correspondence with George

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Washington. So how do we know
actually what Martha Washington

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was like? I mean, how do we have
a sense of what she was like as

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a person, if we don't have much
of her surviving evidence with

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her relationship with George
Washington.

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Karin Wulf: You know, it's so
tough for women of any kind of

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status, we have so little by
comparison to what we have with

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men. I want to just call out
with enormous admiration for the

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papers of George Washington
Project at the University of

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Virginia, which did a "Papers of
Martha Washington" volume in

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2022. It's fantastic. It's a
super scholarly edition, which

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might sound like it's dry
reading, but it's not. It's

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great reading. I highly
recommend it to anyone. But it's

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essentially hundreds of letters
written by her and to her, and

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some other materials like
receipts and copies of wills and

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estate papers. It's a kind of a
one stop shop for what we know

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from the textual evidence. So
that's not the material

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evidence, but the textual
evidence about Martha

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Washington, and it's quite
revealing. It shows us quite a

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lot about her. It shows us how
she expressed herself in

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language. It shows us, for
example, that she was exchanging

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information with these people
when she was the executor of her

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first husband's estate. It shows
us that she's writing about

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wanting to make purchases or
management of her estate. There

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is very little to her husband
that is true her husband George

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Washington. And it's also true
that by comparison to someone

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like him, it's very little. This
single volume of hundreds of

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letters. It's dwarfed by, you
know, just in the Founders

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Online resource of the
documentary editing projects,

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this wonderful collaboration of
the National Archives and the

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documentary editing projects.
It's fantastic, online one of

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the best resources for early
American history. Shows there

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are more than 30,000 letters
written by George Washington. So

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when you say we've got a couple
of 100 things written by or two

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or about Martha, it seems like
very little. But for many other

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00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,400
women, we have 5% of that. We
might have one or two or five

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things. So I guess what I'm
saying is it's a matter of

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perspective. There does seem to
be quite a lot about her by

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comparison to other women, and
we can kind of use that

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00:12:47,005 --> 00:12:50,725
material. We can understand that
in conjunction with the

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00:12:50,725 --> 00:12:53,305
material, evidence of her
clothing, material she

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00:12:53,305 --> 00:12:56,305
collected, things she was
interested in. People often

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00:12:56,305 --> 00:12:59,605
mention that she was a
fashionable dresser, and we know

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00:12:59,605 --> 00:13:03,805
that from what survives, both of
the actual material stuff, like,

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00:13:03,805 --> 00:13:07,510
there's, you know, surviving her
beautiful wedding shoes, very,

220
00:13:07,510 --> 00:13:10,570
very fancy she would have
absolutely been wearing the

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fanciest French shoes.

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Colleen Shogan: They were high
heels, right? I mean, pretty

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unusual.

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Karin Wulf: Purple silk
embroidered. I mean so, so fancy

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00:13:18,970 --> 00:13:21,430
and like, can you imagine in
18th century Virginia, saying,

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like, dear so and so, this is
what I want for my wedding

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outfit. I want these fancy
heels. So some of that tells us

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a little bit about her, too,
that she was not the kind of

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00:13:33,055 --> 00:13:36,655
grandmotherly, you know. Let's
just leave her on the margins.

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Not much to say about her
caricature of later years she

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00:13:40,735 --> 00:13:42,055
was a woman who knew her own
mind.

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Colleen Shogan: Yeah, that's
interesting, because we have

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00:13:43,675 --> 00:13:46,855
this picture of Martha
Washington in our head, of her

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00:13:46,855 --> 00:13:50,395
later in life, where she's
portrayed very differently than,

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00:13:50,395 --> 00:13:53,740
like you said, a younger woman
who's looking for fancy shoes to

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wear at her wedding.

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Karin Wulf: Yeah, and but you
know, the other thing is that

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00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,740
even later in her life, people
often remarked, when she was

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00:13:59,740 --> 00:14:03,040
first lady, that she dressed
rather simply, and I think

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00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,460
that's very self conscious. She
doesn't want to look too fancy,

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00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:09,700
because it's a balancing act,
trying to be first lady, but not

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00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:12,340
trying to pretend that you're
being the queen or something.

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00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:18,445
But the fabric of her clothing
was exquisite, always of the

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00:14:18,445 --> 00:14:22,345
finest quality, and fabric is
incredibly expensive at the

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00:14:22,345 --> 00:14:25,645
time. So she may look like she's
simply dressed, but she's

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00:14:25,645 --> 00:14:26,845
dressed in the best.

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00:14:27,205 --> 00:14:28,765
Colleen Shogan: You know, she
steps into the spotlight,

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00:14:28,765 --> 00:14:32,005
probably for the first time,
when George Washington takes

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00:14:32,005 --> 00:14:37,270
command of the Continental Army
in 1775 and she is now the

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00:14:37,270 --> 00:14:41,110
spouse, or the wife, of the
commander in chief of that army.

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00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:45,670
What role did she think she had
to play in this new foray that

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00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:48,850
George Washington undertakes
that she probably was never

253
00:14:48,970 --> 00:14:49,870
anticipating?

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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,880
Karin Wulf: Yeah, it's so
interesting because one of the

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00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,820
few surviving letters between
them is a letter that George

256
00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:58,900
wrote her as he is about to take
command, and he says, "I have

257
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:02,500
been asked to basically, take on
this whole big job." And it's a

258
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,380
longish letter, actually, but
he's very self conscious about

259
00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:08,260
saying, "I know that this means
something, not just for me, but

260
00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:12,100
for you. It's a burden, but it's
a responsibility, but it's one I

261
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,805
think we need to shoulder."
Interestingly, at the very end

262
00:15:15,805 --> 00:15:19,525
of that letter, he says, PS, "I
got the prettiest muslin."

263
00:15:19,525 --> 00:15:21,925
That's gorgeous fabric. I got
the prettiest muslin for you,

264
00:15:21,925 --> 00:15:25,045
and I'm sending it. So I think
both of them knew that this was

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00:15:25,045 --> 00:15:27,865
going to change things for them.
He'd been a soldier. She knew

266
00:15:27,865 --> 00:15:31,645
that he was an officer for the
Virginia militia in the Seven

267
00:15:31,645 --> 00:15:34,705
Years' War. He was fighting for
the British because he was a

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British colonist. You know, he
was a subject of the crown early

269
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in their marriage. But this
would change things, and we can

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00:15:41,530 --> 00:15:46,390
see that she took that seriously
in a couple different ways. She

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00:15:46,450 --> 00:15:50,950
famously always went to visit
him at the Winter encampments,

272
00:15:50,950 --> 00:15:53,830
all eight winter encampments,
every winter, she tried to be

273
00:15:53,830 --> 00:15:56,770
with him. Armies generally tried
to kind of stay put and not

274
00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:59,515
march around and do too much in
the winter. So she tried to be

275
00:15:59,515 --> 00:16:02,515
with him. But there are other
interesting snippets. Like, for

276
00:16:02,515 --> 00:16:05,995
example, she sometimes just a
little bit of evidence on this,

277
00:16:05,995 --> 00:16:09,295
but she would sometimes clearly
act as secretary for him, take

278
00:16:09,295 --> 00:16:12,535
notes for him, make copies of
letters that he needed, and he

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00:16:12,535 --> 00:16:16,555
needed a lot. You know, he was
managing a big operation. So it

280
00:16:16,555 --> 00:16:21,235
seems to me, what she thought
she should do is a version of

281
00:16:21,235 --> 00:16:24,340
what she would have been doing
as a plantation mistress,

282
00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:28,420
running an operation. She was
thinking about how to serve her

283
00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:32,380
husband and his work, and how to
serve the operation that they

284
00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:34,660
were jointly invested in as best
she could.

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00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,320
Colleen Shogan: What's
interesting to me, she doesn't

286
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,200
remain at Mount Vernon, where
she would have been certainly

287
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,880
more comfortable and probably
safer, but she does make these

288
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,120
trips, which has to show some
sort of attachment to George

289
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:46,780
Washington.

290
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:49,660
Karin Wulf: Yes, although it
wasn't completely unusual. You

291
00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:52,660
know, many women did do this,
and their husbands did want them

292
00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:56,560
to be with them. I'm reminded
that Nathaniel Greene, the great

293
00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:59,080
Rhode Island general, probably
George Washington's best

294
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,700
general. I might be biased as a
Rhode Island resident now, but

295
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,940
Nathaniel Greene was so
desperate for his young wife to

296
00:17:05,940 --> 00:17:09,180
join him on campaign, he wrote
her these very sexy letters,

297
00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:12,240
like saying, you know, like, I
I'm desperate without you, you

298
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,600
need to join me. And she was
like, Well, I just had a baby.

299
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,240
I'm kind of tired. Actually, she
named that baby Martha

300
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,240
Washington. Oh, how about but so
it's not completely unusual for

301
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,600
women to join their husbands.
And of course, as we know that

302
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,040
many armies marched with lots of
women in train, lots of women

303
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,340
working for the army. So it's
not completely unusual, but it's

304
00:17:34,340 --> 00:17:37,520
true that no one would have
thought otherwise. If she had

305
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,240
said, I'm just going to stay at
Mount Vernon and manage things

306
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,420
there, it would have been a lot
less stressful for her. It would

307
00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:46,000
probably have been a lot easier
in a lot of ways, but she wanted

308
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:46,840
to be there with him now,

309
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:54,040
Colleen Shogan: After the
Revolutionary War is over and

310
00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:57,040
the Constitution is ratified, of
course, George Washington

311
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,040
becomes the President of the
United States, and then Martha

312
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,240
Washington becomes the first
First Lady of the United States,

313
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,380
even though that title wasn't in
existence at that time. But how

314
00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:11,365
does she approach this job? I
mean, this is actually really

315
00:18:11,365 --> 00:18:15,625
hard. There's not precedent for
what this will look like in a

316
00:18:15,685 --> 00:18:19,585
republic in the United States.
How does she approach this new

317
00:18:19,585 --> 00:18:20,725
role and position?

318
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,600
Karin Wulf: I think there are
two things. One is just to go

319
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,320
back to the world of Virginia
that they came from. They lived

320
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,740
in an extremely hierarchical
world. They lived in a world

321
00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:33,380
where, literally, some people
were free and some people were

322
00:18:33,380 --> 00:18:37,100
enslaved, where there was a
hierarchy of Gender, Women

323
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:40,040
typically expected to be
subordinated to men, where

324
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,000
wealthy people expected to be in
power, and political power, like

325
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,105
the world of hierarchy, was not
unusual to them. She would have

326
00:18:47,105 --> 00:18:51,125
understood being in an important
position, and she would have

327
00:18:51,125 --> 00:18:55,325
understood very plainly her
husband being in this kind of

328
00:18:55,445 --> 00:19:00,245
prime, elevated position. So
hierarchy was not new. Hierarchy

329
00:19:00,245 --> 00:19:04,205
was entirely obvious to them,
and that, I think, probably

330
00:19:04,205 --> 00:19:08,090
helped with this transition.
What's different is the idea

331
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:10,670
that it's not the ultimate
hierarchy that they were used

332
00:19:10,670 --> 00:19:13,010
to, political hierarchy that
they were used to, which was the

333
00:19:13,010 --> 00:19:16,910
monarchy, and the monarchy with
all of the symbols and the

334
00:19:17,030 --> 00:19:20,630
trappings of luxury and wealth
and status that comes with it

335
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:24,470
that it helped to culturally
convey political and

336
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:29,030
governmental authority. So the
question is, how do you have

337
00:19:29,075 --> 00:19:32,795
enough authority to do what you
need to do and to convey the

338
00:19:32,795 --> 00:19:36,275
power of the government, but
also not so much that you're

339
00:19:36,275 --> 00:19:40,895
tripping over or falling into
monarchical habits and cultural

340
00:19:40,895 --> 00:19:44,255
trappings. How do you do
hierarchy, but within a

341
00:19:44,255 --> 00:19:47,675
democracy? Very, very
challenging. So I think both

342
00:19:48,035 --> 00:19:50,975
George and Martha Washington,
they had a little time to think

343
00:19:50,975 --> 00:19:54,020
about this. He was the commander
of the army, and that's a very

344
00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:59,300
hierarchical institution, and
people had made her into not

345
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,000
quite a celebrity. Like we think
of now, but people knew her.

346
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,460
People, as I just mentioned,
with Nathaniel Greene and his

347
00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:07,220
wife, people were naming their
babies after George and Martha

348
00:20:07,220 --> 00:20:10,820
Washington. They were
celebrated. So it wasn't like

349
00:20:10,820 --> 00:20:13,880
they went from nothing to all of
a sudden, catapulted into the

350
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,045
spotlight, but they had to
really navigate this new

351
00:20:17,045 --> 00:20:21,605
position quite carefully. And
you can see how she wants to

352
00:20:21,605 --> 00:20:25,925
think through how she would
entertain for example, because

353
00:20:26,165 --> 00:20:28,745
at Mount Vernon, you are
bringing people into your home.

354
00:20:28,865 --> 00:20:30,665
But when you're in the
president's house, the

355
00:20:30,665 --> 00:20:34,685
President's mansion, you're
bringing people into this place

356
00:20:34,745 --> 00:20:38,030
that is the president's
residence of the United States

357
00:20:38,030 --> 00:20:38,870
of America. That's very
different. You're not welcoming

358
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:41,150
people into your home, you're
welcoming people into the

359
00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:44,630
President's home. And she's a
little self conscious about

360
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:48,050
that, and she sets up some kind
of structures for how to do

361
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:52,010
that. She has parties, but she
structures them in terms of who

362
00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:55,910
she invites when they come in,
how she greets them, as I

363
00:20:55,910 --> 00:20:59,030
mentioned before, she's pretty
self conscious about dressing in

364
00:20:59,030 --> 00:21:04,475
this kind of simple but very
elegant style. She outfits their

365
00:21:04,475 --> 00:21:08,075
houses, the president's house
this way, orders China and other

366
00:21:08,075 --> 00:21:11,855
kinds of things that will be
kind of emblems of the

367
00:21:11,855 --> 00:21:14,795
presidential residence. So I
think she's quite self

368
00:21:14,795 --> 00:21:18,095
conscious, and I think it is a
major transition that takes a

369
00:21:18,095 --> 00:21:22,295
lot of thought and care, but
it's not a wholesale revolution

370
00:21:22,295 --> 00:21:23,195
in how to be.

371
00:21:23,495 --> 00:21:25,715
Colleen Shogan: How does the
American public view these

372
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,860
choices that she makes as the
first woman to be married to the

373
00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:34,460
American President, which would
eventually be the first hostess

374
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,800
of the United States? How do
people react?

375
00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:38,600
Karin Wulf: Well, I think there
are different kinds of

376
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,440
reactions. There is some
controversy around the kind of

377
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,520
style that both George and
Martha Washington employ in the

378
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,385
presidential residence. Some
people complain about the

379
00:21:49,385 --> 00:21:52,325
parties that they have, finding
that, in fact, they look a

380
00:21:52,325 --> 00:21:55,565
little too monarchical, they
look a little too aristocratic,

381
00:21:55,865 --> 00:21:58,805
whereas other people find that
actually, they're navigating

382
00:21:58,805 --> 00:22:01,505
this quite well. It's
interesting that Abigail Adams,

383
00:22:01,505 --> 00:22:04,925
who becomes the second First
Lady, says, Look, you are such a

384
00:22:04,925 --> 00:22:07,385
model. I'm never going to be
able to do it as well as you

385
00:22:07,385 --> 00:22:10,565
did. Thank goodness you went
first, basically. And Abigail

386
00:22:10,565 --> 00:22:14,690
Adams, as we know, was a pretty
sharp assessor of people and

387
00:22:14,690 --> 00:22:17,090
their behavior, and probably
wouldn't have pulled her

388
00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:17,750
punches.

389
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:25,490
Colleen Shogan: Karin in the
final years of their lives, both

390
00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:29,330
Martha and George Washington
worried about a lot of things.

391
00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:33,470
They worried about their
families, their legacies, about

392
00:22:33,470 --> 00:22:37,175
the future of Mount Vernon,
their home, and, of course, the

393
00:22:37,175 --> 00:22:41,675
future of the United States.
What choices did Martha

394
00:22:41,675 --> 00:22:45,815
Washington face in these years
near the end of her life, and

395
00:22:45,815 --> 00:22:46,895
how did she confront them?

396
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,420
Karin Wulf: I think there are so
many different things that

397
00:22:49,420 --> 00:22:52,360
they're concerned about. Her
husband is very concerned about

398
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:55,660
the future of the United States
and the political situation,

399
00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:58,840
particularly the friction
between the political parties,

400
00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:03,040
is a subject of great concern.
She's very concerned about her

401
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,240
children and grandchildren and
her very dear niece, how her

402
00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:11,725
close family will be. Is of
enormous concern for her and

403
00:23:11,725 --> 00:23:15,085
tending to those family
relationships and those family

404
00:23:15,085 --> 00:23:18,025
situations. I think it takes up
an extraordinary amount of her

405
00:23:18,025 --> 00:23:20,785
time. She does think that she
will get her husband back to

406
00:23:20,785 --> 00:23:24,505
Mount Vernon, and they will have
time together. And of course,

407
00:23:24,565 --> 00:23:28,345
they don't. He dies too soon
after the presidency for them to

408
00:23:28,345 --> 00:23:31,045
really have a lot of time
together, which is like just

409
00:23:31,045 --> 00:23:34,270
deeply, deeply sad. But I think
one thing that's quite telling

410
00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:38,110
to me is that her dear niece,
her sister's daughter, Fanny

411
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:43,630
Bassett, marries twice, once to
one of George Washington's dear

412
00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,270
nephews, but then the second
time she marries, and this is

413
00:23:46,270 --> 00:23:48,850
very close to the end of George
Washington's life. So it's in

414
00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:53,770
the mid 1790s she marries George
Washington's longtime secretary,

415
00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:58,255
Tobias Lear. And I think for me,
that kind of symbolizes how they

416
00:23:58,255 --> 00:24:01,855
think about tending to their
family, both the people that

417
00:24:01,855 --> 00:24:05,215
they're related to, but also the
people who have become part of

418
00:24:05,215 --> 00:24:08,755
their inner circle, how they
want to see them as kind of part

419
00:24:08,755 --> 00:24:12,295
of a coherent whole. I think
those are really important to

420
00:24:12,295 --> 00:24:15,475
her. There are also important
choices that she makes in terms

421
00:24:15,475 --> 00:24:19,780
of as we know, George Washington
decides to free the people that

422
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:24,340
he has enslaved she does not, in
part, she doesn't have a lot of

423
00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:29,440
choice, because the enslaved
people who are her property are

424
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,340
actually the property of her
children. That is, she just has

425
00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:37,180
the care of that property. But
she does have a choice about a

426
00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:42,265
couple of things, including one
person who she owns outright,

427
00:24:42,325 --> 00:24:44,845
and she doesn't free that
person. So we know that she

428
00:24:44,845 --> 00:24:48,025
doesn't make the same choices
that her husband does in regards

429
00:24:48,025 --> 00:24:51,205
to enslaved people. And that's,
I think, telling

430
00:24:51,205 --> 00:24:54,865
Colleen Shogan: She does free
some of the enslaved people from

431
00:24:54,865 --> 00:24:57,625
George Washington earlier
because they were supposed to be

432
00:24:57,625 --> 00:25:00,745
freed upon her death, she frees
them early. Earlier. But there's

433
00:25:00,745 --> 00:25:02,005
a reason for that. Correct?

434
00:25:02,005 --> 00:25:04,345
Karin Wulf: That's true. You
know, that's a really tricky

435
00:25:04,345 --> 00:25:07,510
one, because some people say and
comments that she made

436
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:10,810
contributed to this, that she
worries that when people will

437
00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:14,230
gain their freedom only when
she's dead, does her death

438
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:18,490
become the barrier, essentially,
to freedom. So she thinks maybe

439
00:25:18,490 --> 00:25:21,850
I should just go ahead and do
this sooner. A more charitable

440
00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:24,970
reading of it is that she wants
to enact her husband's wishes

441
00:25:24,970 --> 00:25:27,895
and reflect some of his changing
views about slavery.

442
00:25:28,135 --> 00:25:31,675
Colleen Shogan: As we look back
into our nation's past, four

443
00:25:31,735 --> 00:25:36,595
relevant lessons today, what can
In Pursuit listeners learn from

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00:25:36,595 --> 00:25:37,975
Martha Washington's life?

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00:25:37,975 --> 00:25:41,815
Karin Wulf: I think there is no
single individual who is purely

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00:25:41,815 --> 00:25:46,075
heroic and good and positive or
who is purely evil? Well,

447
00:25:46,075 --> 00:25:48,595
actually, maybe there are a few
people who are but people are

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00:25:48,595 --> 00:25:52,360
complex, you know, and she had
really important things to

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00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,300
contribute to the young nation.
And also she's a complicated

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00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:58,120
figure because she is so
implicated in some of the

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00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:02,320
greatest wrongs of our nation's
past, like slavery, but she

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00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:05,380
really contributed, really
importantly, in part because she

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00:26:05,380 --> 00:26:08,800
was so dedicated to her family.
When we think about all the

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00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560
kinds of commitments that we
make to our families, we don't

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00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,905
know what paths that will take
us down. She did not know when

456
00:26:14,905 --> 00:26:17,365
she married George Washington
that she wasn't just marrying

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00:26:17,665 --> 00:26:21,385
another guy who would be a
planter and pretty wealthy, and

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00:26:21,385 --> 00:26:24,865
wealthier by virtue of the
property he brought to her and a

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00:26:24,865 --> 00:26:27,565
guy who would be, you know, a
politician in the Virginia House

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00:26:27,565 --> 00:26:30,805
of purchases. She had no idea
this guy was going to go on to

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00:26:30,805 --> 00:26:34,225
be the first president of this
unimaginable new thing the

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00:26:34,225 --> 00:26:37,825
United States of America. She
said to someone like, situation

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00:26:37,870 --> 00:26:42,310
has outrun our imagination. But
she went with that. She stayed

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00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:44,710
committed, not just to her
husband, to her family, but to

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00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:47,710
their mutual commitment to the
young United States of America.

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00:26:47,710 --> 00:26:49,930
Colleen Shogan: Karen Wulf,
author of the new book

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00:26:50,110 --> 00:26:52,930
"Lineage," thank you so much for
joining us on In Pursuit.

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00:26:52,990 --> 00:26:53,710
Karin Wulf: Thank you, Colleen.

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00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:54,250
Colleen Shogan: Thank you

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00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:59,170
To read Karen Wolf's essay on
Martha Washington and to enjoy

471
00:26:59,170 --> 00:27:02,575
other great in pursuit essays
and podcasts. Visit

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00:27:02,575 --> 00:27:08,275
inpursuit.org. In Pursuit with
Colleen Shogan is a podcast by

473
00:27:08,275 --> 00:27:12,595
More Perfect. The series is
written and produced by Jim

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00:27:12,655 --> 00:27:18,415
Ambuske. Our theme music is
"Kleos" by Charlie Ryan, audio

475
00:27:18,415 --> 00:27:22,975
mixing by Curt Dahl of CD
Squared, please rate and review

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00:27:22,975 --> 00:27:27,400
the show on your favorite
podcast app and tell us which

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00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,960
Americans inspire you.