Andrew Davenport: You can see in Jefferson's own life that he
truly believed in change and the possibility of change, and if he
didn't, he wouldn't have made the transition from being a
loyal subject to being a leading radical in the independence
movement.
Colleen Shogan: In April 1820, Thomas Jefferson worried about
the fate of the American Union. The question of whether to admit
Missouri into the Union as a slave state or as a free state
tore at the nation's seams. For Jefferson, who called for an end
to slavery, yet who would enslave people until the day he
died, the Missouri question was like a fire bell in the night.
It awakened and filled him with terror. Slavery, he wrote, was
like holding a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him nor
safely let him go. Jefferson, long wrestled with the
contradictions of his own life. He was the author of a
declaration filled with self evident truths that all men were
created equal. These Americans were entitled to life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness, but at Monticello, he had
enslaved servants to attend to his every need, as today's
guest, Dr. Andrew Davenport argues, Jefferson's abiding
belief in the generations to come gave him hope that
Americans would accomplish what the Revolutionary generation did
not. So what can we learn from Jefferson's faith in the future?
I'm Colleen Shogan, and this is In Pursuit a podcast that
explores lessons from America's past to write the history of
America's future. Episode Three: Thomas Jefferson: Futurist.
Andrew Davenport, welcome to In Pursuit.
Andrew Davenport: Colleen. Thank you so much for having me.
Colleen Shogan: We're here to talk about Thomas Jefferson now.
Thomas Jefferson's born in 1743 into a wealthy family in
Virginia. Tell us a little bit what the Virginia countryside
looks like at that point in time.
Jefferson's born 1743 in what is now Albemarle County, Virginia,
was the western frontier of British colonial North America
at the time Jefferson was born, really pressed right up against
the Blue Ridge Mountains. And on the other side, of course,
native territory. And when Jefferson is coming up through
adolescence, the western territory beyond the Blue Ridge
Mountains is really a war zone, a theater of the Seven Years'
War. And so Jefferson has, early on, these inklings of what a
Empire of Liberty could look like in British North America.
But he begins, of course, he'sloyal British subject, as
were his parents. Mother is born 1721, actually, in London. She's
the daughter of an Anglo-Virginian family, the
randolphs. She's well descended. His mother is his father, a
little bit less so, from the Jefferson line, who'd been in
Virginia longer than the Randolphs had, but had not had
the same material success. So when the Jeffersons and the
Randolphs come together, it's really advantageous for the
Jefferson family, especially. His father was a surveyor. He
was very civically engaged locally, but his real fortune
comes through marriage, marriage to a Randolph, and also his
knowledge of the local land. So as a surveyor, he's a keen land
savvy sense, and he's one of the first Europeans to settle in
what is now Albemarle County, in this Virginia Piedmont area in
the central part of the Commonwealth, but is now the
state, and he has 1000 acre home site, beginning quite early in
the 1730s and 40s. Doesn't have a home yet the proper land to
fit a proper home that he would like. So through one of his
cousins by marriage, in exchange for a very tall drink of rum
from a colonial Tavern in Williamsburg, Peter Jefferson
inherits Shadwell plantation in Albemarle County. It's where he
will make the Jefferson home, and it's the home that Jefferson
is born into in 1743, so we're talking tobacco as the main
crop. And Jefferson grows up in the slave society in Albemarle
County. And of course, he's born into the gentry.
Well, it sounds like a very prosperous situation for Thomas
Jefferson. He's a loyal subject of George the Third. What
happens to Thomas Jefferson going from that situation to
eventually writing the Declaration of Independence.
Andrew Davenport: It's not something that you would have
been able to predict, and no one could have predicted this rapid
change, not just in Jefferson's life, but in what will
ultimately become the United States. And yes, Jefferson's
life is an example of prosperity. He's born into the
gentry class. His father is one of the wealthiest men in the
county, the Jefferson family, and especially the Randolph
family, would be considered upper middle class, or upper
class, you know, really kind of the leaders of the terms of the
economic station of the colony. But Jefferson's life is really
advanced through education, this principled commitment on his
part to improve himself through reading, through writing,
through socializing, making alliances. Jefferson's really
serious about his studies. He's really serious about his studies
of human nature in particular. And he's reading about Ancient
Greece and the fall of Athenian democracy and how it devolved
into civil war. And he's reading about the fall of the ancient
Roman Republic and how it devolved into tyrannical
behavior. And he really thinks when he sees the actions of the
king and his ministers and when others in his class do across
the colonies, they're looking at tyrannical behavior. And so
because of restrictions against settlement into Western and
native lands, because of newly direct taxation in the 1760s
because of the dissolution of colonial legislatures,
Virginians, people in Massachusetts as well, people up
and down the colonies will say, Hey, is what's happening in our
colony going on? What's happening with yours, too? And
let's exchange notes about how we kind of ward off these
growing tyrannical behaviors that are coming out of London.
That's how the first steps toward resistance will emerge.
Jefferson, writing in Summary View of the Rights of British
America, he says that he wants the name of King George the
Third not to be a hideous blot on the page of history. He's
holding out hope that change will come for George the Third
and his ministers, and when it doesn't, that's when Jefferson
and others will believe it makes really good common sense for
independence.
Colleen Shogan: Well, just like George Washington, he married a
very wealthy widow. So tell us a little bit about Jefferson's
wife. We don't often hear much about her because of her illness
and her early death.
Andrew Davenport: Martha Wales Skelton Jefferson, very
prominent in the colony, quite wealthy herself, and when her
father dies, Jefferson will, of course, inherit this really
large estate, which includes about 130 or so enslaved people
and about 10,000 acres across Virginia. But the story that we
hear is often just about that inheritance from Wales. It's not
about Martha Wales Skelton Jefferson herself. I think new
exciting scholarship shows that she led just as much of a
revolutionary life as Jefferson did, and although he burned her
correspondence to protect their privacy, we can see that through
his letters to other people where he's describing say, I'm
waiting for a letter for my wife, or Please tell my wife
this or that, we can see that he's really entrusting some very
interesting details about what's happening the Second Continental
Congress, what's happening elsewhere during the
Revolutionary War to his wife, Mrs. Jefferson. And so while she
dies in an early age, in her early to mid 30s, and after, oh
geez, about 10 pregnancies or so and the loss of several, several
children, we know that she had a lasting influence on Jefferson's
life, that their marriage, as he said, was were years of
uncheckered happiness, but unfortunately, she was not able
to live long enough to see the accomplishments that her husband
had, of course, or be able to care for her family, or see
really what the United States would become.
Colleen Shogan: The Revolutionary era for Thomas
Jefferson you write In your essay for In Pursuit is a
complicated time for him. In some ways it's amongst the
brightest of times he writes the Declaration of Independence, but
there's other aspects of that time period that are very dark
for him. Can you talk about those?
Andrew Davenport: I love this quote from Alan Taylor. He says,
"Thomas Jefferson did not want to write the Declaration of
Independence." He really wanted to have been doing anything else
but be in Philadelphia in the late spring, early summer of
1776 because he's thinking about his home, Virginia, which is
reconsidering it has to make its own constitution. And he's also,
of course, thinking about his wife, who has suffered
miscarriages, is ill, has child to care for in Virginia too, and
would have been in Philadelphia if she were well enough to and
you can see this in Jefferson's correspondence. His thoughts are
elsewhere. They're not exclusively in Philadelphia.
They're on his home, Virginia, his country, as he calls it, and
of course, with his family, with his wife. So yes, being present
for the Second Continental Congress, having all this
committee work, being able to exchange brilliant ideas with
people from all over, from New Jersey, from Connecticut, from
Philadelphia, from Massachusetts. It sounds
fantastic on paper, but it's a ton of work. He's working six
days a week, round the clock, burning the candles both ends.
And he's assigned the task, of course, of drafting the
Declaration of Independence, and of course, he comes through. It
takes him 17 days, but at the very same time, he's thinking
about what's happening in Virginia and how he can, from
afar, influence and also take care of family matters to the
extent that he's able to.
Colleen Shogan: Now, Thomas Jefferson, unlike some of the
other figures we know from this time period, he does not go on
to fight in the Revolutionary War. What does he do during this
time period, after he writes the declaration?
Jim Ambuske: Jefferson doesn't see himself fit for military
command, and he's he's exactly right. He does not lack for self
awareness. So he's not leading like Washington is on the
battlefield. He's not like Hamilton is either. As
subordinate to Washington. He's a legislator. During this time,
he's remaking Virginia as a state, and then he is the second
governor of Virginia, following Patrick Henry. And so he leads
politically. He doesn't lead militarily, and he'll try to
protect to the extent that he's able to state from British
invasion. And he's unsuccessful. But I think anyone as governor
in that position would be unsuccessful, given the state of
the coastline, given the power of the British forces, given the
state of the state militias. Jefferson, he knew that he had
an inferior hand, but I think anyone in the position that he
found himself in would have really, really struggled. One
thing that you can really fault him for is not staying in office
until a next governor could be found this period in the summer
when Jefferson's term had officially ended, but no
governor had been chosen by representatives to take over.
And instead of staying in the office, making sure that British
forces could be adequately opposed, Jefferson leaves. He
flees with his family to try and protect them. And you could
fault him for that, I think.
Colleen Shogan: And Jefferson really feels that criticism. He
internalizes that and it says it stays with him his entire life.
Andrew Davenport: He does it stings him forever, and
especially Henry's criticisms of him in the office. But of
course, Henry would have had the very same issues as governor,
and he knew the issues that Jefferson faced. I think that's
why, in particular, Henry's criticism stung, and Jefferson
faced the tribunal, and his name is ultimately cleared.
Colleen Shogan: After the Revolutionary War, Jefferson
travels to France. He becomes the American Minister to France.
So when he goes abroad, what does he find in Paris? What's
the French and European views of young United States?
Andrew Davenport: Well, Jefferson finds a great number
of contacts and connections in France, and at this time,
Abigail Adams will call him one of the choicest ones on the
planet. He's known for his conversation for even though
he's plain dressed, he stands out because of his bearing,
because of his cosmopolitan learning. And so he represents
the United States, both in terms of being an ambassador, but also
in terms of just the culture of an American. And so he's
representing not just the interests of the States, but
also the new nation, which has just been hatched through war.
So he safeguards the commercial interests of the US, principally
advocating for the sales of the exports of tobacco and for whale
oil. He helps with a couple of treaties as well. And then he,
of course, is looking back across the Atlantic to see how
things are going. You know, this is the time of the Articles of
Confederation. This is the Confederation Congress. There's
a weak, centralized government. And Jefferson knows this. He
knows that he can act to the fullest extent that he possibly
could as an ambassador without this kind of centralized
government that empowers its representatives. And he's hoping
that the new United States can be safeguarded for the selection
of a new constitution, and is advocating for liberties in a
Bill of Rights.
Colleen Shogan: So after his service in France, the 1790s are
a time of really intense partisanship, vitriolic
politics, and Thomas Jefferson has some very interesting jobs.
In the 1790s he's the Secretary of State under George
Washington. He's the vice president under John Adams. So
explain to us, how does Thomas Jefferson he does not agree with
Washington and Adams much of the time. How does he serve in these
administrations? Does he toe the party line, or does he oppose
Washington and Adams?
Andrew Davenport: You know, I think we have to remember that
Jefferson is a dreamer. He's a designer, he's an author, he's
an architect, he's a man of ideas, and he's a man of the
political arena. He really is a political animal. And so even as
Secretary of State, as vice president as well. Jefferson is
thinking about how he would want to do things and how he would
want to lead a country. Is not the way that he sees
Washington's leadership. He sees Hamilton having Washington's
ear, or how Adams ends up leading the nation too. So he
does engage in a bit of subterfuge. Let's call it that.
And during the Washington administration, he's planting
stories in the press, and he's advocating for limited
government where centralized power is is not so centralized,
for that matter, and for a new nation that is not built up on
commercial interests, so to speak, and doesn't have the kind
of modern, contemporary financial instruments that we
would recognize in our own economy to come. He's hoping for
some more influence, and when he sees particularly that he does
not have it in the Washington administration, he ends up
resigning from the cabinet and returning to Charlottesville his
first retirement before running for president in 1796 and
ultimately losing to Adams and becoming vice president. You
wouldn't necessarily want Jefferson in your cabinet. In
reality, it looks good on paper, but he's far more interested in
how he would ultimately want to lead.
Colleen Shogan: So eventually he becomes president in 1800 it's
the first real transfer of power, and then the opportunity
to really implement his vision for the United States. And as
you said. Said earlier, his vision is predominantly an
agrarian vision for the future of the United States. So talk
about that. How does he achieve that, and why does he view the
United States as predominantly its future in farming and
agriculture?
Andrew Davenport: Jefferson envisions an Empire of Liberty
for the United States, and farmers are central to that
vision. And he's not just being a planter himself. Through his
reading of both ancient Greece and in ancient Rome, he
recognizes that farmers are among the most virtuous, if not
the most virtuous citizens of democracy or Republic. And so he
is an advocate for this type of independence and this agrarian
independence, and ultimately, as President, of course, will sign
the Louisiana Purchase into being, effectively doubling the
size of the United States and opening that land would have
been indigenous land for settlement by Americans. He sees
that this democratic republic can expand continentally, and
he's one of the first people to espouse that kind of continental
vision an imperial vision of the United States.
Colleen Shogan: Of course, slavery is an integral part of
the future of America as an agrarian society. So tell us
about slavery at Monticello, Jefferson's home and Jefferson's
views on slavery.
Andrew Davenport: Well, Jefferson inherits enslaved
people through his father, from his Shadwell estate here in
Albemarle County, about 50 enslaved people when he reaches
the age of 21 and then he inherits about 130 more from his
father in law, John Wales, upon his death. And so Jefferson will
enslave about 600 people, a bit more than that across his
lifetime, approximately 180 to 200 people at any given time.
And it's not just Monticello. We're talking particularly in
the first couple of decades of Jefferson's marriage. He's
overseeing plantations, not just in Almora County, but further
east in Goochland, south below the James in the counties of
Bedford and Campbell. And these are vast plantation tracts,
mostly of tobacco, but also of wheat. The principal families
that Jefferson enslaved, they include the names of Granger,
Gillette, Hemmings, Hearns, Evans's, Hughes's and others.
And by the end of his life, in 1826, you can look at the names
of the people that Jefferson enslaved, and you can see that
virtually all of them hail from these families that he inherited
through John Wales or through his father, Peter Jefferson. So
there is a degree of stability here within the family
populations, but it's a complicated issue, and it's one
that we try to look squarely in the face Jefferson as a
philosopher of liberty, Jefferson as a slave holder, and
Jefferson as a critic of slavery across his life, recognizing, as
he did, that slavery was a moral evil, but is one that he cannot
rid himself of.
Colleen Shogan: Like you said, Jefferson is full of seemingly
contradictions. What about the issue of emancipation? Because
as Jefferson grows older and time advances, slavery expands
in certainly some parts in the United States, but it also
diminishes in other parts of the United States. So what was
Jefferson's view on emancipation?
Andrew Davenport: Hamilton has this quote about Jefferson, that
he's a contemptible hypocrite, that he's paradoxical. And I
think that those insights, let's call them, from Hamilton,
Jefferson would recognize himself in those statements, I
don't think that they would cause him more or further
introspection. He did that work throughout his life. He knew
that he would be judged for being an enslaver. He knew that
he would be judged for his racist views. Ultimately,
Jefferson entrusts the project of emancipation, which he saw,
especially in the years after the Declaration of Independence,
beginning to take hold in New England in particular, and he
saw some halting progress in Virginia as well, until a
Manumission law in 1806 made it more challenging to free
enslaved people. And he recognizes that slavery is
something of a political impossibility for his time, and
he will not expend the type of political capital that could
have swayed the majority of a populace in Virginia. A man of
Jefferson stature, expending political capital to criticize
slavery and to try and bring about its end could have done
some serious good in the state. He doesn't choose to do that.
He'll criticize the institution privately during his public life
and then ultimately in retirement as well. What he'll
do instead is entrust the project for the next generation,
and that's an example of Jefferson kicking the can down
the road. He knew that that would be the case, but he also
did trust people to do the right thing, ultimately. And took long
enough, and it took a terribly violent American Civil War to
bring about that change, and Jefferson had predicted that,
but ultimately that is what happened.
Colleen Shogan: With our project with In Pursuit, one of the
things we're trying to do is uncover what lesson we can learn
with each individual that we think about and talk about. So
tell us what lesson can we learn from Thomas Jefferson?
Andrew Davenport: I wrote the essay about Jefferson's dreams
of the future, his faith and some of it's quite naive that
the world would continue to progress. And you can see in
Jefferson's own life that he truly believed in change and the
possibility of change. And if he didn't, he wouldn't have made
the transition from being a loyal subject to being a leading
radical in the independence movement, he wouldn't have been
able to envision the kind of different world that he did. So
it's about having a sense of optimism for things to come,
instead of having a sense of total dread or pessimism. I
think Jefferson teaches us how to think positively about the
future, and that's a tremendous gift. And in spite of all his
contradictions, really the massive contradictions, I think
his faith in the future is his most relatable characteristic.
Colleen Shogan: And why is it important for us to think, as a
futurist, in a democracy?
Andrew Davenport: We've got to have belief that this thing can
keep going, and it's been going for 250, years. Democracy is not
perfect, but it's the best form of government that we have, and
we've got to have faith that whoever is behind us can carry
the mission forward. That's very Jeffersonian. The ball of
liberty has to keep going around the globe.
Colleen Shogan: Andrew Davenport, thank you so much for
joining us, for In Pursuit.
Thank you, Colleen.
To read Andrew Davenport's essay on Thomas Jefferson and to enjoy
other great In Pursuit essays and podcasts. Visit in
pursuit.org. In Pursuit with Colleen Shogun is a podcast by
more perfect. The series is written and produced by Jim
Ambuske. Our theme music is "Kleos" by Charlie Ryan, audio
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