1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,910 Andrew Davenport: You can see in Jefferson's own life that he 2 00:00:02,910 --> 00:00:06,780 truly believed in change and the possibility of change, and if he 3 00:00:06,780 --> 00:00:09,570 didn't, he wouldn't have made the transition from being a 4 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:14,460 loyal subject to being a leading radical in the independence 5 00:00:14,460 --> 00:00:14,970 movement. 6 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:19,650 Colleen Shogan: In April 1820, Thomas Jefferson worried about 7 00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:23,790 the fate of the American Union. The question of whether to admit 8 00:00:23,820 --> 00:00:27,630 Missouri into the Union as a slave state or as a free state 9 00:00:28,050 --> 00:00:32,790 tore at the nation's seams. For Jefferson, who called for an end 10 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:36,510 to slavery, yet who would enslave people until the day he 11 00:00:36,510 --> 00:00:40,650 died, the Missouri question was like a fire bell in the night. 12 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,600 It awakened and filled him with terror. Slavery, he wrote, was 13 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,980 like holding a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him nor 14 00:00:49,980 --> 00:00:54,060 safely let him go. Jefferson, long wrestled with the 15 00:00:54,060 --> 00:00:58,440 contradictions of his own life. He was the author of a 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,150 declaration filled with self evident truths that all men were 17 00:01:03,150 --> 00:01:07,530 created equal. These Americans were entitled to life, liberty 18 00:01:07,590 --> 00:01:11,040 and the pursuit of happiness, but at Monticello, he had 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,810 enslaved servants to attend to his every need, as today's 20 00:01:15,810 --> 00:01:19,950 guest, Dr. Andrew Davenport argues, Jefferson's abiding 21 00:01:19,950 --> 00:01:24,000 belief in the generations to come gave him hope that 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,380 Americans would accomplish what the Revolutionary generation did 23 00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:33,090 not. So what can we learn from Jefferson's faith in the future? 24 00:01:34,590 --> 00:01:39,150 I'm Colleen Shogan, and this is In Pursuit a podcast that 25 00:01:39,150 --> 00:01:43,470 explores lessons from America's past to write the history of 26 00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:49,350 America's future. Episode Three: Thomas Jefferson: Futurist. 27 00:01:51,510 --> 00:01:54,240 Andrew Davenport, welcome to In Pursuit. 28 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:55,950 Andrew Davenport: Colleen. Thank you so much for having me. 29 00:01:56,130 --> 00:01:59,250 Colleen Shogan: We're here to talk about Thomas Jefferson now. 30 00:01:59,250 --> 00:02:05,820 Thomas Jefferson's born in 1743 into a wealthy family in 31 00:02:05,820 --> 00:02:09,930 Virginia. Tell us a little bit what the Virginia countryside 32 00:02:09,930 --> 00:02:11,580 looks like at that point in time. 33 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,700 Jefferson's born 1743 in what is now Albemarle County, Virginia, 34 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:20,360 was the western frontier of British colonial North America 35 00:02:20,420 --> 00:02:23,240 at the time Jefferson was born, really pressed right up against 36 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,400 the Blue Ridge Mountains. And on the other side, of course, 37 00:02:25,460 --> 00:02:28,040 native territory. And when Jefferson is coming up through 38 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,160 adolescence, the western territory beyond the Blue Ridge 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,460 Mountains is really a war zone, a theater of the Seven Years' 40 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:38,885 War. And so Jefferson has, early on, these inklings of what a 41 00:02:38,945 --> 00:02:41,885 Empire of Liberty could look like in British North America. 42 00:02:41,885 --> 00:02:44,765 But he begins, of course, he'sloyal British subject, as 43 00:02:44,765 --> 00:02:49,745 were his parents. Mother is born 1721, actually, in London. She's 44 00:02:49,745 --> 00:02:51,965 the daughter of an Anglo-Virginian family, the 45 00:02:51,965 --> 00:02:55,325 randolphs. She's well descended. His mother is his father, a 46 00:02:55,325 --> 00:02:58,145 little bit less so, from the Jefferson line, who'd been in 47 00:02:58,190 --> 00:03:01,010 Virginia longer than the Randolphs had, but had not had 48 00:03:01,010 --> 00:03:03,590 the same material success. So when the Jeffersons and the 49 00:03:03,590 --> 00:03:06,350 Randolphs come together, it's really advantageous for the 50 00:03:06,350 --> 00:03:10,070 Jefferson family, especially. His father was a surveyor. He 51 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:13,970 was very civically engaged locally, but his real fortune 52 00:03:13,970 --> 00:03:17,330 comes through marriage, marriage to a Randolph, and also his 53 00:03:17,330 --> 00:03:21,575 knowledge of the local land. So as a surveyor, he's a keen land 54 00:03:21,575 --> 00:03:25,895 savvy sense, and he's one of the first Europeans to settle in 55 00:03:25,895 --> 00:03:29,315 what is now Albemarle County, in this Virginia Piedmont area in 56 00:03:29,315 --> 00:03:31,415 the central part of the Commonwealth, but is now the 57 00:03:31,415 --> 00:03:35,975 state, and he has 1000 acre home site, beginning quite early in 58 00:03:35,975 --> 00:03:40,055 the 1730s and 40s. Doesn't have a home yet the proper land to 59 00:03:40,055 --> 00:03:42,515 fit a proper home that he would like. So through one of his 60 00:03:42,515 --> 00:03:46,760 cousins by marriage, in exchange for a very tall drink of rum 61 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,020 from a colonial Tavern in Williamsburg, Peter Jefferson 62 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:54,560 inherits Shadwell plantation in Albemarle County. It's where he 63 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,140 will make the Jefferson home, and it's the home that Jefferson 64 00:03:57,140 --> 00:04:00,740 is born into in 1743, so we're talking tobacco as the main 65 00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:04,460 crop. And Jefferson grows up in the slave society in Albemarle 66 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:06,905 County. And of course, he's born into the gentry. 67 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,650 Well, it sounds like a very prosperous situation for Thomas 68 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:15,150 Jefferson. He's a loyal subject of George the Third. What 69 00:04:15,150 --> 00:04:19,530 happens to Thomas Jefferson going from that situation to 70 00:04:19,530 --> 00:04:22,050 eventually writing the Declaration of Independence. 71 00:04:22,410 --> 00:04:23,610 Andrew Davenport: It's not something that you would have 72 00:04:23,610 --> 00:04:26,520 been able to predict, and no one could have predicted this rapid 73 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,280 change, not just in Jefferson's life, but in what will 74 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:32,640 ultimately become the United States. And yes, Jefferson's 75 00:04:32,670 --> 00:04:35,640 life is an example of prosperity. He's born into the 76 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:39,870 gentry class. His father is one of the wealthiest men in the 77 00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:42,750 county, the Jefferson family, and especially the Randolph 78 00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:45,630 family, would be considered upper middle class, or upper 79 00:04:45,630 --> 00:04:49,020 class, you know, really kind of the leaders of the terms of the 80 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:53,040 economic station of the colony. But Jefferson's life is really 81 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,790 advanced through education, this principled commitment on his 82 00:04:56,790 --> 00:05:00,210 part to improve himself through reading, through writing, 83 00:05:00,450 --> 00:05:03,900 through socializing, making alliances. Jefferson's really 84 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:08,040 serious about his studies. He's really serious about his studies 85 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,650 of human nature in particular. And he's reading about Ancient 86 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:14,280 Greece and the fall of Athenian democracy and how it devolved 87 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:16,950 into civil war. And he's reading about the fall of the ancient 88 00:05:16,950 --> 00:05:19,770 Roman Republic and how it devolved into tyrannical 89 00:05:19,770 --> 00:05:24,090 behavior. And he really thinks when he sees the actions of the 90 00:05:24,090 --> 00:05:27,840 king and his ministers and when others in his class do across 91 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,770 the colonies, they're looking at tyrannical behavior. And so 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,530 because of restrictions against settlement into Western and 93 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,060 native lands, because of newly direct taxation in the 1760s 94 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,840 because of the dissolution of colonial legislatures, 95 00:05:43,110 --> 00:05:45,840 Virginians, people in Massachusetts as well, people up 96 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:48,660 and down the colonies will say, Hey, is what's happening in our 97 00:05:48,660 --> 00:05:51,540 colony going on? What's happening with yours, too? And 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,420 let's exchange notes about how we kind of ward off these 99 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:57,450 growing tyrannical behaviors that are coming out of London. 100 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,280 That's how the first steps toward resistance will emerge. 101 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:05,370 Jefferson, writing in Summary View of the Rights of British 102 00:06:05,370 --> 00:06:08,310 America, he says that he wants the name of King George the 103 00:06:08,310 --> 00:06:11,730 Third not to be a hideous blot on the page of history. He's 104 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,180 holding out hope that change will come for George the Third 105 00:06:15,180 --> 00:06:18,210 and his ministers, and when it doesn't, that's when Jefferson 106 00:06:18,210 --> 00:06:21,780 and others will believe it makes really good common sense for 107 00:06:21,780 --> 00:06:22,440 independence. 108 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:25,380 Colleen Shogan: Well, just like George Washington, he married a 109 00:06:25,380 --> 00:06:29,430 very wealthy widow. So tell us a little bit about Jefferson's 110 00:06:29,460 --> 00:06:34,140 wife. We don't often hear much about her because of her illness 111 00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:35,220 and her early death. 112 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:38,400 Andrew Davenport: Martha Wales Skelton Jefferson, very 113 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,970 prominent in the colony, quite wealthy herself, and when her 114 00:06:41,970 --> 00:06:45,750 father dies, Jefferson will, of course, inherit this really 115 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:50,190 large estate, which includes about 130 or so enslaved people 116 00:06:50,190 --> 00:06:53,970 and about 10,000 acres across Virginia. But the story that we 117 00:06:53,970 --> 00:06:57,510 hear is often just about that inheritance from Wales. It's not 118 00:06:57,510 --> 00:07:00,990 about Martha Wales Skelton Jefferson herself. I think new 119 00:07:00,990 --> 00:07:04,740 exciting scholarship shows that she led just as much of a 120 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:07,860 revolutionary life as Jefferson did, and although he burned her 121 00:07:07,860 --> 00:07:12,000 correspondence to protect their privacy, we can see that through 122 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,330 his letters to other people where he's describing say, I'm 123 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:17,640 waiting for a letter for my wife, or Please tell my wife 124 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,430 this or that, we can see that he's really entrusting some very 125 00:07:20,430 --> 00:07:23,070 interesting details about what's happening the Second Continental 126 00:07:23,070 --> 00:07:25,050 Congress, what's happening elsewhere during the 127 00:07:25,050 --> 00:07:28,650 Revolutionary War to his wife, Mrs. Jefferson. And so while she 128 00:07:28,650 --> 00:07:32,280 dies in an early age, in her early to mid 30s, and after, oh 129 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,910 geez, about 10 pregnancies or so and the loss of several, several 130 00:07:35,910 --> 00:07:38,790 children, we know that she had a lasting influence on Jefferson's 131 00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:41,340 life, that their marriage, as he said, was were years of 132 00:07:41,370 --> 00:07:44,100 uncheckered happiness, but unfortunately, she was not able 133 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:46,890 to live long enough to see the accomplishments that her husband 134 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:49,770 had, of course, or be able to care for her family, or see 135 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:51,570 really what the United States would become. 136 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,770 Colleen Shogan: The Revolutionary era for Thomas 137 00:07:58,770 --> 00:08:01,800 Jefferson you write In your essay for In Pursuit is a 138 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,360 complicated time for him. In some ways it's amongst the 139 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,680 brightest of times he writes the Declaration of Independence, but 140 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,330 there's other aspects of that time period that are very dark 141 00:08:15,330 --> 00:08:16,950 for him. Can you talk about those? 142 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:18,990 Andrew Davenport: I love this quote from Alan Taylor. He says, 143 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,470 "Thomas Jefferson did not want to write the Declaration of 144 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:25,380 Independence." He really wanted to have been doing anything else 145 00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:28,320 but be in Philadelphia in the late spring, early summer of 146 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,040 1776 because he's thinking about his home, Virginia, which is 147 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,090 reconsidering it has to make its own constitution. And he's also, 148 00:08:36,090 --> 00:08:39,150 of course, thinking about his wife, who has suffered 149 00:08:39,150 --> 00:08:43,920 miscarriages, is ill, has child to care for in Virginia too, and 150 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,370 would have been in Philadelphia if she were well enough to and 151 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:50,580 you can see this in Jefferson's correspondence. His thoughts are 152 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:52,950 elsewhere. They're not exclusively in Philadelphia. 153 00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:56,370 They're on his home, Virginia, his country, as he calls it, and 154 00:08:56,370 --> 00:09:01,440 of course, with his family, with his wife. So yes, being present 155 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,600 for the Second Continental Congress, having all this 156 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,960 committee work, being able to exchange brilliant ideas with 157 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,750 people from all over, from New Jersey, from Connecticut, from 158 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:12,150 Philadelphia, from Massachusetts. It sounds 159 00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:15,270 fantastic on paper, but it's a ton of work. He's working six 160 00:09:15,270 --> 00:09:17,970 days a week, round the clock, burning the candles both ends. 161 00:09:18,150 --> 00:09:20,910 And he's assigned the task, of course, of drafting the 162 00:09:20,940 --> 00:09:23,220 Declaration of Independence, and of course, he comes through. It 163 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:26,970 takes him 17 days, but at the very same time, he's thinking 164 00:09:26,970 --> 00:09:30,330 about what's happening in Virginia and how he can, from 165 00:09:30,330 --> 00:09:34,020 afar, influence and also take care of family matters to the 166 00:09:34,020 --> 00:09:35,160 extent that he's able to. 167 00:09:35,550 --> 00:09:37,680 Colleen Shogan: Now, Thomas Jefferson, unlike some of the 168 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:41,550 other figures we know from this time period, he does not go on 169 00:09:41,550 --> 00:09:45,510 to fight in the Revolutionary War. What does he do during this 170 00:09:45,510 --> 00:09:48,360 time period, after he writes the declaration? 171 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:51,120 Jim Ambuske: Jefferson doesn't see himself fit for military 172 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,000 command, and he's he's exactly right. He does not lack for self 173 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,540 awareness. So he's not leading like Washington is on the 174 00:09:57,540 --> 00:10:00,390 battlefield. He's not like Hamilton is either. As 175 00:10:00,390 --> 00:10:03,390 subordinate to Washington. He's a legislator. During this time, 176 00:10:03,390 --> 00:10:07,470 he's remaking Virginia as a state, and then he is the second 177 00:10:07,470 --> 00:10:10,800 governor of Virginia, following Patrick Henry. And so he leads 178 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,620 politically. He doesn't lead militarily, and he'll try to 179 00:10:13,620 --> 00:10:16,350 protect to the extent that he's able to state from British 180 00:10:16,350 --> 00:10:20,100 invasion. And he's unsuccessful. But I think anyone as governor 181 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:23,100 in that position would be unsuccessful, given the state of 182 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:26,580 the coastline, given the power of the British forces, given the 183 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:29,010 state of the state militias. Jefferson, he knew that he had 184 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:32,400 an inferior hand, but I think anyone in the position that he 185 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,310 found himself in would have really, really struggled. One 186 00:10:35,310 --> 00:10:38,820 thing that you can really fault him for is not staying in office 187 00:10:38,850 --> 00:10:42,360 until a next governor could be found this period in the summer 188 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,240 when Jefferson's term had officially ended, but no 189 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,450 governor had been chosen by representatives to take over. 190 00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:52,110 And instead of staying in the office, making sure that British 191 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,410 forces could be adequately opposed, Jefferson leaves. He 192 00:10:55,410 --> 00:10:58,230 flees with his family to try and protect them. And you could 193 00:10:58,230 --> 00:10:59,310 fault him for that, I think. 194 00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:01,950 Colleen Shogan: And Jefferson really feels that criticism. He 195 00:11:01,950 --> 00:11:06,000 internalizes that and it says it stays with him his entire life. 196 00:11:06,210 --> 00:11:07,710 Andrew Davenport: He does it stings him forever, and 197 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,550 especially Henry's criticisms of him in the office. But of 198 00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:14,670 course, Henry would have had the very same issues as governor, 199 00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:17,430 and he knew the issues that Jefferson faced. I think that's 200 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:20,430 why, in particular, Henry's criticism stung, and Jefferson 201 00:11:20,430 --> 00:11:23,490 faced the tribunal, and his name is ultimately cleared. 202 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,940 Colleen Shogan: After the Revolutionary War, Jefferson 203 00:11:26,970 --> 00:11:31,110 travels to France. He becomes the American Minister to France. 204 00:11:31,170 --> 00:11:36,030 So when he goes abroad, what does he find in Paris? What's 205 00:11:36,030 --> 00:11:40,470 the French and European views of young United States? 206 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:42,720 Andrew Davenport: Well, Jefferson finds a great number 207 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,480 of contacts and connections in France, and at this time, 208 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,090 Abigail Adams will call him one of the choicest ones on the 209 00:11:48,090 --> 00:11:51,510 planet. He's known for his conversation for even though 210 00:11:51,510 --> 00:11:55,200 he's plain dressed, he stands out because of his bearing, 211 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,230 because of his cosmopolitan learning. And so he represents 212 00:11:58,230 --> 00:12:01,650 the United States, both in terms of being an ambassador, but also 213 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,830 in terms of just the culture of an American. And so he's 214 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:07,170 representing not just the interests of the States, but 215 00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:10,710 also the new nation, which has just been hatched through war. 216 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:13,680 So he safeguards the commercial interests of the US, principally 217 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:17,730 advocating for the sales of the exports of tobacco and for whale 218 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,660 oil. He helps with a couple of treaties as well. And then he, 219 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:23,850 of course, is looking back across the Atlantic to see how 220 00:12:23,850 --> 00:12:26,850 things are going. You know, this is the time of the Articles of 221 00:12:26,850 --> 00:12:29,430 Confederation. This is the Confederation Congress. There's 222 00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:32,850 a weak, centralized government. And Jefferson knows this. He 223 00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:35,520 knows that he can act to the fullest extent that he possibly 224 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,980 could as an ambassador without this kind of centralized 225 00:12:37,980 --> 00:12:41,670 government that empowers its representatives. And he's hoping 226 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:45,150 that the new United States can be safeguarded for the selection 227 00:12:45,150 --> 00:12:48,930 of a new constitution, and is advocating for liberties in a 228 00:12:48,930 --> 00:12:49,590 Bill of Rights. 229 00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:54,870 Colleen Shogan: So after his service in France, the 1790s are 230 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:59,250 a time of really intense partisanship, vitriolic 231 00:12:59,250 --> 00:13:03,300 politics, and Thomas Jefferson has some very interesting jobs. 232 00:13:03,330 --> 00:13:07,770 In the 1790s he's the Secretary of State under George 233 00:13:07,770 --> 00:13:12,810 Washington. He's the vice president under John Adams. So 234 00:13:12,810 --> 00:13:16,740 explain to us, how does Thomas Jefferson he does not agree with 235 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:21,720 Washington and Adams much of the time. How does he serve in these 236 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,340 administrations? Does he toe the party line, or does he oppose 237 00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:27,840 Washington and Adams? 238 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,460 Andrew Davenport: You know, I think we have to remember that 239 00:13:29,490 --> 00:13:33,060 Jefferson is a dreamer. He's a designer, he's an author, he's 240 00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:35,820 an architect, he's a man of ideas, and he's a man of the 241 00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:39,150 political arena. He really is a political animal. And so even as 242 00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:42,300 Secretary of State, as vice president as well. Jefferson is 243 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:45,630 thinking about how he would want to do things and how he would 244 00:13:45,630 --> 00:13:48,480 want to lead a country. Is not the way that he sees 245 00:13:48,510 --> 00:13:52,110 Washington's leadership. He sees Hamilton having Washington's 246 00:13:52,140 --> 00:13:56,730 ear, or how Adams ends up leading the nation too. So he 247 00:13:56,730 --> 00:14:00,390 does engage in a bit of subterfuge. Let's call it that. 248 00:14:00,390 --> 00:14:02,970 And during the Washington administration, he's planting 249 00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:06,990 stories in the press, and he's advocating for limited 250 00:14:06,990 --> 00:14:10,800 government where centralized power is is not so centralized, 251 00:14:10,830 --> 00:14:14,580 for that matter, and for a new nation that is not built up on 252 00:14:14,580 --> 00:14:17,490 commercial interests, so to speak, and doesn't have the kind 253 00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:20,340 of modern, contemporary financial instruments that we 254 00:14:20,340 --> 00:14:24,030 would recognize in our own economy to come. He's hoping for 255 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:27,030 some more influence, and when he sees particularly that he does 256 00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:29,490 not have it in the Washington administration, he ends up 257 00:14:29,490 --> 00:14:32,640 resigning from the cabinet and returning to Charlottesville his 258 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,600 first retirement before running for president in 1796 and 259 00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:40,050 ultimately losing to Adams and becoming vice president. You 260 00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:42,360 wouldn't necessarily want Jefferson in your cabinet. In 261 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,210 reality, it looks good on paper, but he's far more interested in 262 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,800 how he would ultimately want to lead. 263 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,250 Colleen Shogan: So eventually he becomes president in 1800 it's 264 00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:55,020 the first real transfer of power, and then the opportunity 265 00:14:55,050 --> 00:14:59,610 to really implement his vision for the United States. And as 266 00:14:59,610 --> 00:15:02,760 you said. Said earlier, his vision is predominantly an 267 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,420 agrarian vision for the future of the United States. So talk 268 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:09,660 about that. How does he achieve that, and why does he view the 269 00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:13,860 United States as predominantly its future in farming and 270 00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:14,700 agriculture? 271 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,550 Andrew Davenport: Jefferson envisions an Empire of Liberty 272 00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:21,360 for the United States, and farmers are central to that 273 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,480 vision. And he's not just being a planter himself. Through his 274 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,180 reading of both ancient Greece and in ancient Rome, he 275 00:15:27,180 --> 00:15:30,480 recognizes that farmers are among the most virtuous, if not 276 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,380 the most virtuous citizens of democracy or Republic. And so he 277 00:15:34,380 --> 00:15:38,880 is an advocate for this type of independence and this agrarian 278 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,840 independence, and ultimately, as President, of course, will sign 279 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,140 the Louisiana Purchase into being, effectively doubling the 280 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:49,260 size of the United States and opening that land would have 281 00:15:49,260 --> 00:15:53,310 been indigenous land for settlement by Americans. He sees 282 00:15:53,310 --> 00:15:56,580 that this democratic republic can expand continentally, and 283 00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:59,910 he's one of the first people to espouse that kind of continental 284 00:15:59,910 --> 00:16:02,940 vision an imperial vision of the United States. 285 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,710 Colleen Shogan: Of course, slavery is an integral part of 286 00:16:10,740 --> 00:16:15,510 the future of America as an agrarian society. So tell us 287 00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:21,210 about slavery at Monticello, Jefferson's home and Jefferson's 288 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,530 views on slavery. 289 00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:24,210 Andrew Davenport: Well, Jefferson inherits enslaved 290 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:27,720 people through his father, from his Shadwell estate here in 291 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,690 Albemarle County, about 50 enslaved people when he reaches 292 00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:34,470 the age of 21 and then he inherits about 130 more from his 293 00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:37,860 father in law, John Wales, upon his death. And so Jefferson will 294 00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:40,950 enslave about 600 people, a bit more than that across his 295 00:16:40,950 --> 00:16:45,450 lifetime, approximately 180 to 200 people at any given time. 296 00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:48,000 And it's not just Monticello. We're talking particularly in 297 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,970 the first couple of decades of Jefferson's marriage. He's 298 00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:54,390 overseeing plantations, not just in Almora County, but further 299 00:16:54,390 --> 00:16:57,960 east in Goochland, south below the James in the counties of 300 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,370 Bedford and Campbell. And these are vast plantation tracts, 301 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,210 mostly of tobacco, but also of wheat. The principal families 302 00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:09,300 that Jefferson enslaved, they include the names of Granger, 303 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:13,710 Gillette, Hemmings, Hearns, Evans's, Hughes's and others. 304 00:17:13,710 --> 00:17:17,610 And by the end of his life, in 1826, you can look at the names 305 00:17:17,610 --> 00:17:20,220 of the people that Jefferson enslaved, and you can see that 306 00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:23,520 virtually all of them hail from these families that he inherited 307 00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:25,920 through John Wales or through his father, Peter Jefferson. So 308 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,710 there is a degree of stability here within the family 309 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:32,190 populations, but it's a complicated issue, and it's one 310 00:17:32,190 --> 00:17:34,770 that we try to look squarely in the face Jefferson as a 311 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:37,980 philosopher of liberty, Jefferson as a slave holder, and 312 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:42,000 Jefferson as a critic of slavery across his life, recognizing, as 313 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,630 he did, that slavery was a moral evil, but is one that he cannot 314 00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:46,920 rid himself of. 315 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,590 Colleen Shogan: Like you said, Jefferson is full of seemingly 316 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:54,330 contradictions. What about the issue of emancipation? Because 317 00:17:54,330 --> 00:17:59,490 as Jefferson grows older and time advances, slavery expands 318 00:17:59,490 --> 00:18:02,460 in certainly some parts in the United States, but it also 319 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:06,510 diminishes in other parts of the United States. So what was 320 00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:08,760 Jefferson's view on emancipation? 321 00:18:09,150 --> 00:18:10,950 Andrew Davenport: Hamilton has this quote about Jefferson, that 322 00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:14,760 he's a contemptible hypocrite, that he's paradoxical. And I 323 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,210 think that those insights, let's call them, from Hamilton, 324 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:21,810 Jefferson would recognize himself in those statements, I 325 00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:25,050 don't think that they would cause him more or further 326 00:18:25,050 --> 00:18:28,140 introspection. He did that work throughout his life. He knew 327 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:30,780 that he would be judged for being an enslaver. He knew that 328 00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:34,710 he would be judged for his racist views. Ultimately, 329 00:18:34,770 --> 00:18:38,430 Jefferson entrusts the project of emancipation, which he saw, 330 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:41,880 especially in the years after the Declaration of Independence, 331 00:18:41,910 --> 00:18:45,780 beginning to take hold in New England in particular, and he 332 00:18:45,780 --> 00:18:49,650 saw some halting progress in Virginia as well, until a 333 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:52,920 Manumission law in 1806 made it more challenging to free 334 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,850 enslaved people. And he recognizes that slavery is 335 00:18:56,850 --> 00:19:00,210 something of a political impossibility for his time, and 336 00:19:00,210 --> 00:19:04,050 he will not expend the type of political capital that could 337 00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:07,920 have swayed the majority of a populace in Virginia. A man of 338 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,550 Jefferson stature, expending political capital to criticize 339 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,220 slavery and to try and bring about its end could have done 340 00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:17,820 some serious good in the state. He doesn't choose to do that. 341 00:19:17,820 --> 00:19:21,360 He'll criticize the institution privately during his public life 342 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,120 and then ultimately in retirement as well. What he'll 343 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,540 do instead is entrust the project for the next generation, 344 00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:30,480 and that's an example of Jefferson kicking the can down 345 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,390 the road. He knew that that would be the case, but he also 346 00:19:33,420 --> 00:19:37,800 did trust people to do the right thing, ultimately. And took long 347 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,190 enough, and it took a terribly violent American Civil War to 348 00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:43,770 bring about that change, and Jefferson had predicted that, 349 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,270 but ultimately that is what happened. 350 00:19:45,690 --> 00:19:47,760 Colleen Shogan: With our project with In Pursuit, one of the 351 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,560 things we're trying to do is uncover what lesson we can learn 352 00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:57,150 with each individual that we think about and talk about. So 353 00:19:57,150 --> 00:20:01,110 tell us what lesson can we learn from Thomas Jefferson? 354 00:20:01,470 --> 00:20:03,840 Andrew Davenport: I wrote the essay about Jefferson's dreams 355 00:20:03,870 --> 00:20:08,760 of the future, his faith and some of it's quite naive that 356 00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:12,210 the world would continue to progress. And you can see in 357 00:20:12,210 --> 00:20:15,810 Jefferson's own life that he truly believed in change and the 358 00:20:15,810 --> 00:20:18,630 possibility of change. And if he didn't, he wouldn't have made 359 00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:22,650 the transition from being a loyal subject to being a leading 360 00:20:22,650 --> 00:20:25,860 radical in the independence movement, he wouldn't have been 361 00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:29,910 able to envision the kind of different world that he did. So 362 00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:33,060 it's about having a sense of optimism for things to come, 363 00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:36,450 instead of having a sense of total dread or pessimism. I 364 00:20:36,450 --> 00:20:39,900 think Jefferson teaches us how to think positively about the 365 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:44,970 future, and that's a tremendous gift. And in spite of all his 366 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:48,180 contradictions, really the massive contradictions, I think 367 00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:51,810 his faith in the future is his most relatable characteristic. 368 00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:55,050 Colleen Shogan: And why is it important for us to think, as a 369 00:20:55,050 --> 00:20:57,150 futurist, in a democracy? 370 00:20:57,390 --> 00:20:59,040 Andrew Davenport: We've got to have belief that this thing can 371 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,480 keep going, and it's been going for 250, years. Democracy is not 372 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,630 perfect, but it's the best form of government that we have, and 373 00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:09,780 we've got to have faith that whoever is behind us can carry 374 00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:12,330 the mission forward. That's very Jeffersonian. The ball of 375 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:14,430 liberty has to keep going around the globe. 376 00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:16,650 Colleen Shogan: Andrew Davenport, thank you so much for 377 00:21:16,650 --> 00:21:18,660 joining us, for In Pursuit. 378 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:19,560 Thank you, Colleen. 379 00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:25,920 To read Andrew Davenport's essay on Thomas Jefferson and to enjoy 380 00:21:25,950 --> 00:21:29,580 other great In Pursuit essays and podcasts. Visit in 381 00:21:29,610 --> 00:21:34,860 pursuit.org. In Pursuit with Colleen Shogun is a podcast by 382 00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:39,240 more perfect. The series is written and produced by Jim 383 00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:45,030 Ambuske. Our theme music is "Kleos" by Charlie Ryan, audio 384 00:21:45,030 --> 00:21:49,590 mixing by Curt Dahl of CD squared. Please rate and review 385 00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:54,000 the show on your favorite podcast app and tell us which 386 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,590 Americans inspire you.