It’s been a few weeks since the Resonate Podcast Festival in Richmond, Virginia and I’m still reeling. In a good way. In fact, when people ask me how it was, I tell them I left Resonate with my radio heart full to the brim. Yeah. It was that inspiring.

What was so inspiring you ask? Well, the list is long but I want to focus on the presentations that were more artistic – for a lack of a better way of putting it. In fact, I’ve been trying to find the right words. But the presenters, they all told stories in sound. But, some found ways to stitch in poetry. Others were political. Some had dance. And photos and videos. There was even a 10 foot tall puppet for one.…. 

In particular, I want to shout out Aaron Edwards, a podcast story editor who also works in theater. Aaron magically spun a tale about how authoritarians prefer silence and the need to resist that silence by making noise. Any noise. Aaron somehow managed to intertwine themes of British colonialism …. his grandmother who started a community radio station in the hinterlands of Jamaica… He also sang praises for sending voice notes rather than texts….. It’s hard to explain. I’m not doing Aaron’s presentation any kind of justice but I’ll tell you, I never saw a crowd stand to its feet faster than when he finished his story. 

All of these boundary-breaking sessions at Resonate left me feeling like I didn’t have the proper words to use to describe what I was hearing. Maybe you picked up on that. 

My lack of words reminded me of an archive episode of Sound School. A conversation I had with Jazmine T. Green. This was back in 2022.

Back then Jazmine was thinking a lot about how we categorize audio storytelling. They felt the words we choose to describe our work limit our creativity and our thinking. 

James – The thing that I’m really craving more is like a little bit more intention with categorization to allow us to talk a bit more distinctly and technically. 

Instead of just describing stories using  “chatcast” or “NPR-style” or “interview” or “narrative” or  “scripted fiction”… why not borrow terms from other fields like art. Dada, for instance which Jazmine defined as:  

James – Deliberately pushing against tradition for the sake of stretching the boundaries. 

That’s all a little heady, perhaps. So, more concretely, what does this sound like? 

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This is the Sound School Podcast with the backstory to great audio storytelling. It’s a project of PRX and Transom. I’m Rob Rosenthal. I produce and host the show. 

Before I dive in with Jazmine and press play on the archive episode, I want to mention two things. First, when I spoke with Jazmine in 2022 she went by James and used he/they pronouns. You’ll hear me refer to her that way in the episode. She recently told me she’s fine with that.  

The other thing I want to mention… well, not mention. It’s something I want to play. A clip from a story. But I don’t want to tell you what it is exactly. Just think of it as an audio suggestion to get us started.  

Clip 1 – Opening to Axel Kacoutie’s Third Coast-winning piece “How to Remember.” 

THAT’S LOVELY, RIGHT? THE WRITING. THE SOUND DESIGN. THE VOICING. LOVELY. 

JAMES DIDN’T PRODUCE THAT STORY. BUT HE REFERENCED IT WHEN HE TOOK TO TWITTER NOT TOO LONG AGO WITH HIS LAMENT ABOUT THE LEXICON OF STORYTELLING, OUR STORYTELLING ADJECTIVES TO PUT IT ANOTHER WAY. HIS POST WAS SEVERAL TWEETS LONG. JAMES STARTED BY SAYING THIS: 

Rob – “Audiences are getting tired of hyper-realistic portraits.” In audio storytelling of course. Um, what exactly is your beef?

James – (Laughs) So I think what my beef is, is that, like… I feel that things are being  hyper-chewed and then kind of fed like a baby bird. Where it's like here, here is this thing that I'm going to teach you, and then I'm going to chew… it all up, and then I'm going to serve it to you in this very digestible way with you having no questions or no ability to kind of fill in the gaps in your own. Um, and it's firmly polished and, and hyper, like, it's like hyper-prepared for like the most optimal way of digestion… That's what I have the beef with. 

WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THAT WAY, HE WONDERS. WHY CAN’T STORIES BE MORE “CUBIST,” FOR INSTANCE. AND DESCRIBE IT THAT WAY. ACTUALLY USE THE WORD “CUBIST.” IN FACT, HE SAYS IF YOU START FROM THAT PLACE, FROM AN IDEA, A CONCEPT, IT CAN LEAD TO INTERESTING PRODUCTION CHOICES. AND IF YOU LABEL THE WORK AS “CUBIST,” LISTENERS WILL HAVE A FRAMEWORK TO INTERPRET THE STORY. 

James – For example, if I look at a Cubist work, I know that there is probably a reference point that his object is going towards. So, I can look for the clues. “That’s the eye. That’s the face. Okay, the face is probably here.” I can know to look at it as a portrait that just happens to look differently. 

So, if you go into audio with the same sort of thing. Okay, I’m making this sort of like Cubist-based audio, I can then play with story structure to then maybe put things in different orders and know that like the listener can kind of put the pieces together knowing it’s within that framework. 

Clip 2 – Second part of Axel’s story. 

JAMES HAS A BACKGROUND THAT MIGHT EXPLAIN WHY HE GRAVITATES TOWARD THIS WAY OF THINKING. HE GRADUATED IN 2011 FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF SAINT FRANCIS IN JOLIETTE ILLINOIS WITH A DEGREE IN ART. SPECIFICALLY, STUDIO ART PRACTICES. LIKE PERFORMANCE ART, INSTALLATION ART, SOUND ART. HE SAYS THOSE ARE APPROACHES TO ART THAT FOCUS ON AN IDEA FIRST AND TEND TO BE MULTI-DISCIPLINARY. 

HE THOUGHT HE’D BE A DESIGNER. BUT HE HEARD “THIS AMERICAN LIFE” AND “RADIOLAB.” THEY WERE HIS GATEWAY DRUGS INTO RADIO AND PODCASTING. HE EXPERIMENTED WITH HIS OWN PODCASTS. HE WORKED AT GIMLET FOR A WHILE.  HE NOW HAS HIS OWN PRODUCTION COMPANY “MOLTEN HEART” FOCUSED ON STORYTELLING THAT’S WEIRDER. 

James – What I mean by that is maybe timelines are a little obscured. Maybe there’s some sonic techniques that maybe aren’t as typical. Maybe it’s much more music-first. Maybe it kind of takes a lot of artistic liberties for certain projects…. Yeah. I think that’s a good way to put it. 

Clip 3 – Excerpt from James’ story “PMHx” about a permanent heart monitor installed in his chest. (pause it for a moment)

HERE’S A SAMPLE OF JAMES’ WORK. A PIECE HE PRODUCED CALLED “PMHX.”

Clip 3 – continues. Eventually fades down. 

JAMES TOLD ME THE ADJECTIVE TO USE FOR THIS STORY AND MUCH OF HIS WORK IS SURREALISM.  THAT’S BECAUSE, AS HE PUTS IT, HE HAS A STRONG INTEREST IN THE SUBCONSCIOUS AND SLIPPERY NARRATIVES THAT LOOP ONTO THEMSELVES
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AND SPEAKING OF WORDS FOR THE LEXICON OF STORYTELLING, HE OFFERED A FEW IN HIS TWEETS. HE ASKED: “WHAT IS ‘ART HOUSE’ AUDIO, WHAT IS ‘BRUTALIST’ AUDIO. WHAT IS ‘NEO-ROMANTIC’”. 

James - When I think of neo-romantic, I think about like how there is some sort of relationship between surrealism in there, but it feels like slightly Baroque in a way, and I think a lot of like collage-based radio makers. So, you know, if you think about like… Olivia Bradley Skill like things that, that show like a very intense, like technical expertise while at the same time like, kind of like all being within like a single subject. 

Clip 4 – Start of piece by Olivia Bradley Skill called “Music to Wash Dishes By: This Is Of Course A Metaphor.” (plays for a bit then fades down and under)

Rob – What is it that attracts you to this piece from Olivia? 

James - The use of sampling and collage and repetition particularly. So I'm really heavily like inspired by like the musical art of sampling and taking references from one place and then using that as like a new source material…

I enjoyed the firm setting of scene and, you know, just hearing like the eggs cracking on the stove and hearing the gas oven particularly just gave me like a nice visual space. 

And then speaking to space, I just appreciated so much space that was given in the piece. Like I think a thing with like a lot of like what I just keep referring to as like traditional narrative work is that it feels very one track. And what I mean by that… there is only really one interpretation of the work, and that's the interpretation that the host is directing you in. And what's beautiful about Olivia's work particularly, is that it is so open ended and it allows for whatever the listener is bringing to the work… and allowing space for them to then insert their own imagination in allows for like a work, I think to sit with someone a bit more.

Clip 4 – fades up and ends. 

THAT WAS “MUSIC TO WASH DISHES BY: THIS IS, OF COURSE, A METAPHOR.” IT WAS PRODUCED BY OLIVIA BRADLEY SKILL. OLIVIA MADE THIS PIECE FOR WFMU, WHERE SHE HAS A WEEKLY RADIO SHOW CALLED “RADIO RAVIOLI.” 

Rob – Why don’t we define some of your other terms here. What would art house audio be do you think?

James - I would say art house audio… leans a lot on poetry. Leans a lot in sort of like atmospherics. So if it was a film, there would be soft focus. There would be a lot of pinks and oranges and maroons. I think about a lot of whispering and vocal modulation that occurs. A lot of over layering of of various vocals on top of on top of ones. Like, like it reminds me a lot of.. Chamber Pop in a way… Work that sort of straddles the line between lyrical poetry and straight story… So I think of Ariana Martinez's work

Clip 5 – Excerpt from “Perfect Love” by Ariana Martinez. (eventually fades down, under, then out)

THIS IS AN EXCERPT FROM “PERFECT LOVE.” A PIECE BY ARIANA MARTINEZ PRODUCED FOR THE BBC PROGRAM “BETWEEN THE ESSAYS” BACK IN 2020. IT RECOUNTS THE STORY OF TAEHEE (tay-hee )WANG’S QUEST TO CONNECT WITH HER GRANDFATHER AFTER HE DIED. 

THERE WAS ANOTHER WORD JAMES USED IN HIS TWEET. BRUTALIST. I IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT OF MUSIC. BLUNT. HEAVY CONCRETE WITH A CHAINSAW. BANDS LIKE LAIBACH OR MINISTRY OR FAUST, A GERMAN BAND THAT LITERALLY TOOK A CHAINSAW TO CEMENT DURING A PERFORMANCE. 

BUT JAMES WASN’T THINKING SONICALLY. BY “BRUTALIST” HE MEANT PACKS A LYRICAL PUNCH. 

James - Heavily distorted, blunt poetry, like slam poetics… I think some degree of Axel Cacoutie’s work is a form of brutalism.

Clip 6 – 3rd excerpt from Axel’s “How To Remember.” (fades down and under)

James - You listen to their work and… you feel like his words are being delivered with concrete and sharp corners… It's minimal but at the same time, you feel kind of the bare bones of like the structure. 

Clip 6 – 3rd excerpt fades up and ends. 

That “brutalist” piece, as Jazmine describes it, won a gold for best documentary from the Third Coast Festival in 2020. It’s called “How To Remember.” Axel Kacoutie (ka-COO-tea-ay)  produced it for “Short Cuts” a BBC show. That, unfortunately, has been discontinued.  

So, is Jazmine onto something? Let us know. What words and adjectives would you add to the lexicon? Or is any word just another box? Post your thoughts at transom.org. Or you can find Sound School on Bluesky.  

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If you’d like to dig deeper into Jazmine’s thinking, she wrote a manifesto for Transom called “Notes on Muxture. A word she invented that combines “mux” – an abbreviation for music in a script – and “structure.” Muxture. She says “Muxture is the body language of a story.” Find it at Transom dot org. 

Bombay Beach, California. Moab, Utah. Catalina Island, California. Bloomington, Indiana. Amherst, Massachusetts. Interlochen, Michigan. That’s a list of all the locations for Transom Traveling workshops in 2026. So far. 

If you’re new to audio storytelling or have some experience but feel like you could use a hand up, I bet the Transom Workshops are for you. They’re an immersive week of audio storytelling with David Weinberg as your guide. 

Transom is currently taking applications for workshops in February and March in California and Utah. There’s a LOT more information at Transom dot org. 

This is the Sound School podcast from PRX and Transom. I’m Rob Rosenthal. I produce the show with help from Genevieve Sponsler, Jay Allison, and Jennifer Jerrett. 

Thanks for listening.
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