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Hey. Rob here with another episode of Sound School from PRX and Transom. 

I’ve got something a little different up my sleeve today. For years and years, I’ve been the one talking to audio producers and asking questions about craft. Not this time. I’m  handing the mic over to Sally Herships of Radio Boot Camp. But, before I explain who Sally is and why she’ll be seated in the interviewer’s chair I want to set the table. With some tape. 

Clip – Zach -  This all started about a year ago when my father called and left me this message. 

Dad -  Hey Zach, dad again. Good conversation last night. Hey, I didn't remember to tell you this because I was kind of tired, but they're going to shut us down again. And it's going to be a worse shutdown than 2020 because of this EMP, all the supply lines are going to be disrupted. So you really want to store up two months worth of food and water. Because they probably won't be able to pump water throughout the city because that's all controlled by computers and electronics. And the EMP is gonna shut down everything electronic. I know it sounds like conspiracy theory, but they're going to do this. This is what they're planning, and I just want to have you be prepared. 

Zach - My dad's talking about something called an electromagnetic pulse, EMP for short, which if you've ever seen the movie Ocean's Eleven, it's what they use to pull off the casino heist. 

George Clooney - What's a pinch? 

Another character in Ocean’s Eleven - A pinch is a device which creates like a cardiac arrest for any broadband electrical circuitry. An electromagnetic pulse which shuts down any power source within its blast radius. 

Zach - My dad says he's certain that sometime soon, technology like this will be used to wipe out all digital communication across the country. That's right, no cell service, no electricity, no George Clooney or Brad Pitt, just the Dark Ages. 

The narrator in this story is Zach Mack. Zach started out in public radio over a decade ago and has moved on to podcasting working for Vox and The Ringer. I wonder if you might know Zach’s travel podcast “Greetings from Somewhere.” At one point, it reached number one in the travel section at Apple. 

The story about Zach and his dad is called “Alternate Realities.” Zach reported it for Embedded, the documentary podcast from NPR. It’s a short, three-episode series that  dropped back in February. 

Clip – Zach - I wouldn't describe my father as a paranoid person. I wouldn't even call him an anxious person. He's actually an optimist. He's very friendly and rarely serious. There's a lot of dad jokes. But dad and I have never been particularly close. Aside from watching Ohio State football games, there's not a lot we typically agree on. But lately, it feels like we can't even agree on reality. Like so many Americans, dad's gotten swept up in conspiracy theories. He believes in chem trails, that the government can control the weather. That January 6th was staged by what he calls the shadow government. Most of his theories connect back to an idea that a cabal he calls the globalists are secretly running the world. These days, we can barely get through a family dinner without him saying something that fast tracks us into debate. Usually while my mom and sister look the other way. 

Dad - You're saying that I'm a conspiracy theorist. 

Zach - Yes,

Dad - and the facts that I am citing are totally bogus, according to your opinion. 

Zach - Well, yeah. 

Zach -  One of the last times I was home, we got into it because dad was complaining about YouTube removing a lot of the stuff he wants to watch. 

Dad - It's called denying us freedom of speech. 

Zach - It's misinformation. 

Dad – No. Who gets the right to label it mis-information. 

Speaker 3 [00:04:54] These circular arguments never go anywhere. Nothing's ever resolved. So how do you reason with someone who's gone deep down the rabbit hole? And can you?

By this point in the opening to the series, Zach already had me. I was in. Ready for an intimate discussion between family members about what has come between them. I was hooked even more when Zach talked about a little storytelling gift he received from his father. 

Clip - A year ago, I decided to confront my father and tell him I thought he was being radicalized online. But as always, he didn't agree. But what he did next surprised me. Dad texted me a photo of a sheet of paper where in his barely legible cursive, he had written out a list of 10 predictions. 10 things that he was positive would all take place sometime in 2024, assuring me that when all of these things happened, I would see once and for all that he was right. At the bottom of the page was a challenge to a bet for $10,000. And let me just say, dad and I are not big gamblers, nor are we rich. 10K is easily more money than either of us has ever wagered in our entire lives. 

Looking over the list, it was filled with politically apocalyptic predictions. And I remember being some combination of perplexed, horrified, and weirdly amused. The bet seemed really over the top. 

But I also saw it as an opportunity. Instead of just arguing until the end of time, we're actually gonna settle this. And now we had a deadline, January 1st, 2025. And hopefully that'd give me enough time to change his mind, bring him back to reality a little bit. That is before his beliefs tear the family apart.

From NPR’s Embedded, I’m Zach Mack and this is “Alternate Realities.”

So, there’s the opening to Alternate Realities. We’ll hear more from the story shortly. But, now I want to bring in Sally Herships. 

Sally’s been in the radio game for a long time. She worked at Radiolab. Produced stories for the BBC and NPR. She’s the director of the audio program at Columbia University. And she facilitates an online, audio training program called Radio Boot Camp. 

In April, Zach was a guest at Radio Boot Camp. I listened in along with around 30 other people as Sally asked Zach questions for an hour about making “Alternate Realities” and navigating dicey, personal conversations. 

Sally - When did you first start to record? Like it's kind of a chicken and egg question for me. Was this like a, what came first, the decision to record or the thought that like maybe this is a story?

Zach - They came simultaneously. So I started recording sort of when it started. So I guess, let me back up. I can explain to you how the entire thing kind of came about, which is…

I saw that Tribeca, you know, Tribeca Audio, it's like a component of the Tribeca Film Festival, they had an upcoming deadline and I was like, okay, I'm gonna make something for Tribeca audio just as a way to give myself a deadline and make something for myself… 

And then I had a pretty intense conversation with my father. And shortly after he texted me a challenge to this bet for $10,000 with his list of questions. And the moment he did that, I was just like, oh, this is probably a podcast because he just did all the things that I know to look for, which is he gave me stakes, he gave a deadline. I knew that there was a lot of plot and rich character drama because I knew everything was going on with the family between he and I, between he and my mom, between he my sister. So there was just kind of a lot things at play. 

And as soon as he challenged me to that bet, which was all happening via text, I just said, “hey, can we talk about this like in the next couple of days? And can I record it? Like just to see, you know, can I report it? 

And he was like, “yeah, absolutely.” 

Clip – Zach - Can you hear me okay? 

Dad - I can hear you, can you hear me? 

Zach (Narrator) - When dad first sent over his predictions, I quickly got him on the phone to discuss the terms. I could tell that both of us were excited to try something new. 

Zach - Do you have the list in front of you? 

Dad - Yeah. Can you walk me through the one through 10? Each one I'll probably have a couple clarifying questions. 

Dad - Yeah, absolutely. 

Zach (narrator) - Keep in mind that this call and these predictions all came back in January, 2024. 

Dad - Number one, Obama will be found guilty of treason in 2024. 

Zach - So like by a court? 

Dad - Yes. 

Zach - Okay. Not, not the court of public opinion. 

Dad - Correct. 

Zach - And then number two? 

Dad - Biden will be found guilty of treason in 2024. 

Zach - Treason for something specific? 

Dad - For selling all those secrets that he had in the back of his Corvette. 

Zach – (laughing) I don't know if that's a joke, I'm not sure. 

Dad -  It's partially a joke, but it's also real. 

Zach - Number three. 

Zach (narration) It went on like this. Dad's other predictions were that Nancy Pelosi would also be convicted of treason, same for Bill and Hillary Clinton, who would go down for murder as well. That Trump would be reinstated without an election and cleared of all charges. That Biden would be removed from office. Same for both the governor and mayor of New York. Eventually, we landed on his final prediction for 2024, his boldest one. 

Zach – And then number 10. 

Dad - Number 10. I threw this in because I thought you'd be excited about it. 

Zach - Yeah, it's an exciting one. It's probably the most exciting one! 

Dad - The U.S. Will come under martial law in 2024 because of mass rioting and chaos. So the military will have to step in. 

Zach (narration) - For the record, I was never actually excited about the possibility of this happening. 

Zach - For this one, do you think this will be happening all over the country, only in certain parts? 

Dad - The whole United States will come under martial law, and the biggest cities will be targeted. New York, unfortunately, Washington, D.C., the Bay Area, Chicago, L.A., Houston, Dallas. 

Zach -  You seem pretty confident about that. 

Dad - I am 100% confident.

Zach (narration) -  Dad's always been sure of himself, but he'd never said anything like this before. And now he was predicting the future with certainty. 

Dad - When all these things happen, then you will realize that I'm not as big a crackpot as you think I am, and that these are not conspiracy theories, these are reality. 

Sally - Sounds like your dad was like, sure, you can record me, but what about your mom and your sister? Were they just all in as well? 

Zach - Uh, so my dad was definitely the one who was like all in from the get-go. He was just like, I think this is a good idea. Obviously he thought he was right and he thought he was going to be proven out right. So I think was a chance to, to really capture him being right and his son being wrong on, you know, on, on tape, I, I think it was the original appeal. And, and just like as a way to, I think he really just enjoyed talking to me about this stuff. You know, we. We were having all these circular arguments before, and this provided a way for us to talk to each other without screaming at each other or just getting into these arguments that went nowhere. 

So he was pretty on board. My mom was the last person I asked because I thought she would be hesitant. And she was hesitant, but she ultimately, like my sister and dad had already agreed to be a part of it…. And I think it just came down to a level of trust. You know, her feeling like she trusts me. She knows my work. She knows I'm not like out to get the family and or embarrass us. And she just said to me, You know, just make sure you protect us. And that's something I took really seriously. So, but that was all she said is just, you know make sure your protect us and I sort of did so by anonymizing my parents. You know, their names don't appear…

And I think my mom and sister had already felt like they had done everything that they could do in terms of like trying to reach my father. So this felt like a somewhat out of the box approach to try to reach him. 

Zach (narration) - While all this has been going on, there's been something else that's been causing a huge rift in the family. Two years ago, my sister Kira came out to my dad. My mom and I had known for years, but she was always afraid to tell dad because she thought he'd disapprove. It didn't go well. He said he'd always loved my sister, that she was welcome in the house, but he thought her being gay was a choice, a choice that he ultimately didn't agree with. These past two years have not been easy for the family, especially Kira. 

Kira - I think the hardest part is that he looked at me and told me that I was wrong about myself and that he was right, and I don't understand how he could know that. 

Zach (narration) - There's this lingering question of how our family is going to move forward when my sister doesn't feel supported. Then there's all the conspiracy stuff, which is especially hard for my mom. 

Mom – It’s getting pretty crazy and I don't even know half of it. You know, we have two generators in the house, he's stockpiling weird food. 

Zach (narration) - Because my dad thinks the grid is gonna go down, he started hoarding survivalist supplies. And I guess he went on a little shopping spree one time when my mom was out of town. 

Mom - When I came home from Chicago, there are now eight flats of water in the garage that he bought at Costco and some kind of fancy water filter system that was a couple hundred dollars. And he moved some money without my permission. 

Zach -  How did he do that? He didn't need your sign-off? 

Mom - No, because it's a joint account and he withdrew from a joint account without telling me and made a purchase he knew I would never approve. 

Zach - What was it? 

Mom - He bought a precious metal. 

Zach (narration) - Dad's also worried the banks are going to collapse, so he wants to move big chunks of their money into things like platinum and silver. Mom was initially irritated by the bet because Dad didn't run it by her, but eventually, I could see her warming up to the idea of a deadline. 

Mom - I want a date, and then when that date happens, the precious metal gets returned to cash. The flats of water go back to Costco. You do something else with the food generators we now have, and you move on. I have been very clear that I'm not sure how much more I can take. And I've even said, you know, I'm considering leaving, ending the marriage. 

Zach - You said that to him? 

Mom -  Yeah, which is very hard for me to say because I'm 69. I'm about to retire, not necessarily the life I had planned for myself to be alone. But, what kind of life do I have now? 

Sally - Okay, this is a super practical, like geeky producer question. How many hours of tape did you get?

Zach - I think I interviewed my sister three times. I think I interviewed my mom four times, four or five. And then I interviewed my dad a bunch of times, like probably around somewhere between, like a nine or ten times. We would just check in most months. Sometimes we would check more than once. And so yeah, we would just like check in as it went and we would usually talk for about an hour, sometimes 90 minutes. So, you know, and then I would talk to some experts here and there, you now, some conspiracy theorists type experts or clinicians or whatever. So I'm trying to think how many hours of tape. I was probably sitting on somewhere between, you know probably around. 20 hours, 20 to 30 hours of tape.

Sally - How did you like, we're all used to working with sources, but like, this is your family, what, like, how do you, you're like, okay, like we're gonna have dinner, but like first let's do this interview, now we're done. Like, how did you navigate that relationship? 

Zach - I was just always very clear when I wanted to talk about stuff for the show versus not. And you know, there was plenty of times where we would like send each other texts or just talk how we normally do. And then there were, it was like, “Okay, dad, I want to interview you. Are you around this week? I think we should check in.” So it was always, it was very clear when we were recording versus not, I think, you know ethically, you should be clear about when you're kind of working on the story versus just having a normal conversation. And so I was always very, very clear about those parts. 

My dad was luckily like very cool about stuff. You know, he left me a couple of voicemails and two of his voicemail wind up in the show. And when he sends me those voicemails, he doesn't send them with the intention of it being part of the show, I asked his permission. He granted me permission, so we're all good there. 

And then there was one time where I was trying to get ambi of he and I watching an Ohio State football game, just to get like, okay, this is what it's like. We're watching a football game. And then we got into a fight about something. And I wasn't anticipating us getting into a fight, you know, and I didn't like lead him into that. We just very naturally got into fight about something stupid. And so I had it recorded. And so I was like, “Hey dad, I did something kind of weird, which is like, I recorded our fight, but like, and you didn't know I was recording our fight but I was just recording it for like ambi. But now that I do have a fight recorded, I would like to use part of it because I thought it was a good example of just the circular arguments that we would get into.” 

And he again was like “Yeah, go for it.” Like, you know, he just wasn't too worried but I always made sure to flag that stuff in advance. 

Clip – Zach - All of these beliefs, it feels like you're really holding on to them, and I'm not sure why. 

Dad - Because I know they're true. Why am I going to abandon truth? Why would I believe a lie? Why would give that up? And it's not an arrogant thing. It's a knowing in my soul and in my spirit. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I can't abandon the truth. 

Zach (narration) -  As I watched him dig in and double down, I couldn't help but imagine his future, the unvetted information he'd taken, the precious metals and survivalist gear he'd spend more money on, the people he'd surround himself with as he drifted further away from the family. 

Zach - One of the things I've thought a lot about during this process is like, is your dad? And what happened to him? And in the face of so many people around him, including yourself saying, hey, you're going down the wrong road. Like, don't do this, please listen. And he wouldn't hear it from anyone. And it cost him his life. I see a lot of parallels with what's happening right now. 

Dad - Interesting. 

Zach - I don't think you're at risk of physical danger so much. I think you are at risk of a lot of other things.

Dad - Like what? 

Zach - Financial ruin. I think you're at risk of being ostracized and like completely left out of this family dynamic. 

Dad - That would break my heart, but I see that. 

Zach -  I think you're at risk reputationally. 

Dad - How so?

Zach -  I think the people in your community, our friends, family, I don't think they believe what you believe. And I do think that's going to continue to impact you negatively. 

Dad -  The majority do not, but I don't talk to him about it. I don't talk to Marty about this kind of stuff. 

You do talk to Marty about it, I've interviewed…. (fades under)

Sally - This question from Rob Rosenthal. In the third episode, you have your big conversation with your dad. It's the moment you talk to him about the potential breakup of your family. In what way did having a microphone present impact how you talk to your dad?

Clip – Zach – (fades up) I feel like the closest friends in your life, your family, the people around you are telling you, hey, you're going the wrong way. You're not listening.

Zach - The microphone… changed our ability to communicate with each other from the get-go… 

It just allowed me to be more patient, more empathetic, more curious about him because I was suddenly wearing my producer hat. And so I was able to just ask him questions. And when he would say something that was upsetting or that I disagreed with, I didn't have to take the bait in the same way because I was giving an interview, not taking part in an argument. So I do think that role shift changed everything for us because it also allowed my father to not be so defensive. He was just like, and I think he really appreciated the curiosity and me asking questions and actually like taking an interest in his beliefs in his life. And he was able to, you know, we weren't really close before this. So, we were able to communicate and have conversations we never would have been able to have had it not been for this. 

Clip – Dad - yeah, you can point the finger at me and say, it's because of your beliefs. That's partially true, but it's simultaneously because of your, the three of your beliefs. I understand your beliefs. But I don't believe that way. I'm not gonna pretend I believe that way and I know you guys don't want me just to pretend. You want me to embrace it and live it and think it and breathe it the same way you do. I can't do that. Therefore, it creates a wedge. But it doesn't have to. And I think. The post-COVID years have really magnified and polarized. 

Zach - But I would say that's when you got radicalized. I don't think ultimately mom, Kira and I have changed a lot ideologically since that time. I don't think you're in the same place. I think that's what's changed and we're reacting to that change. 

Dad - I can agree with that. I see that.
 
Zach - That final talk was over two hours. I think we used like, I don't know, 15 minutes or something of it, but it was over 2 hours. It was a really intense conversation. I felt like I had been building up to it for so long. It was really like, once we started the bet, the clock was ticking down to us having that conversation of settling the bet. Like that was the conversation I had just been preparing for all year. And the one time where I was like, I have to hold him accountable. I have just like, it was the one that I was like, I'm going to push back on all this stuff. Like I'm not just gonna let it slide. I'm gonna push back. I'm to hold them to account. 

But it was an intense conversation. Yeah, it was pretty brutal. 

Clip – Zach – (With tears) I just want to say I do really appreciate. Oh, man. It's been it's been a hard year, man. This is... But, I mean, I appreciate the conversations we've had all year. Like, I feel closer to you than I ever have and. I'm really sad about the state of this family, but I do appreciate your openness, your willingness to. I don't know, I mean, you never ducked a hard question. 

Dad -  No need to. 

Zach – Sniffles. 


Sally - We've talked about protecting your family, but what about protecting yourself, or did you have any concerns or doubts about telling such a personal story? 

Zach - I wasn't too worried about me in terms of what was going to happen to me once it got out… That being said, it was extremely difficult emotionally for me to make this show. I saw some comment somewhere that was like, “Oh, this is the easiest $10,000 he'll ever make.” And I was like. “No, no, no. This is actually the hardest $10,000 I've ever made” because it was emotionally like gutting for me to make this show and to just be in it in the way that I was for the amount of time that I was, it was, you know, I was just acting out a lot while making this show. It was extremely challenging emotionally and I was going through it and I'm not a big crier and I cried more times in the last year than I've probably cried since I was like a four-year-old you know. Yeah it was it was tough you know I wasn't sleeping so well at times I'm usually a great sleeper I was just moody you know just all these things it really it really like took a lot out of me 

Sally - That makes a lot of sense, and I offer this advice from my aunt Lucy, who's a documentary maker, which helped me in similar times. She said, doing this work provides structure, purpose, and meaning during difficult times. And I've always found that really helpful. 

Zach - Yeah. Oh, I was going to say, the one interesting thing about having gone through this is, I don't know, like there's not many times, I haven't had many people die or like many intense emotional experiences in my life. And there's sort of like, when you have those moments, there's a no going back. Like the person who you were is, you're not that person anymore because you've gone through something. And this is definitely one of those things where I'm not the person who started this project. 

Zach Mach reported and produced “Alternate Realities” for NPR’s Embedded. A version of the story aired on This American Life and they called it “Ten Things I Don’t Want to Hate About You.” Zach was interviewed in April by Sally Herships of Radio Boot Camp. 

Theme music.

Another interesting part of Sally and Zach’s conversation focused on pitching – how Zach sold his idea to NPR and This American Life. 

Sally - Did you make a deck? 

Zach - I didn’t! No! I never had to make a deck!! I never had to make a deck! 

What did Zach do instead? The answer is at Transom dot org. 
 
Also over at Transom an article I highly recommend. “The Art of the Pre-Interview.” Sally Herships wrote it.  She says:  A pre-interview is not an interview. Instead it’s a tricky dance. Sally lays out solid advice on how to navigate that dance. 
 
This is Sound School. The backstory to great audio storytelling. A production of PRX and Transom. My thanks to Genevieve Sponsler, Jay Allison, and Jen Jerrett. Also, a big thanks to Sally Herships and Zach Mack for giving me permission to feature their conversation.
 
From Woods Hole Massachusetts, the radio center of the universe, I’m Rob Rosenthal. Thanks you for listening.