Theme music

Hi everyone. Rob here. Thanks for “tuning in” Sound School from PRX and Transom.

I probably wasn’t very fair to Simon Adler. While we were chatting, I sprung an idea on him out of the blue.

Rob – So there’s something I want to try out with you right now. We didn’t talk about it so maybe this is a little bit of a surprise.

Simon – I love surprises.

Rob – Great.

I’d been interviewing Simon for about half an hour at this point in our conversation. Per usual, I was the one asking the questions. Now, I asked him to take charge.

Rob – I’d like you to interview me about an incident that happened at my house years ago.

Simon – Okay. Great.

Rob – What do you want to know to get started?

Simon – Just tell me the story and I’ll put you through the ringer.

Rob – Great. I can’t wait to go through the ringer.

So, one day at my house. I was living in Maine at the time. This dude shows up at my door and he had blood on his face. He was holding his hand to his face and there was blood dripping down his arms. And so I helped him out and so I brought him home after he had an accident.

Simon - Okay my first question is he was at your door and then you took him home?

Rob – Yeah because he didn’t live with me. He was a stranger at the house. Standing at my door.

Simon – Okay. You invited him into the house.

Rob – Yeah because it looked like he needed help.

Simon - Okay, so you're saying you were… just tell it to me again, if you would. So yeah, you're up in Maine, what happened?

Rob – I was at home. I heard the doorbell ring. Of course, I went to the door. And, much to my surprise, there was this guy. This guy I didn’t know who was standing there and he had his hand on his forehead…..

(fade conversation down)

We went back and forth like this for a while as Simon peppered me with questions attempting to excavate the whole story. And, to make things a little harder for Simon, I was purposefully not forthcoming. I wanted him to work.

(fades up) Simon - Okay, now talk to me again. So we're in Maine in the winter, we're going to go back to the top again. Or is it winter? What time of year is it? Like, when you're looking out the window before this guy shows up, or like, yeah, what does it look like outside?

Rob – It’s summer. Spring, summer. It’s warm enough to be outside doing things as opposed to being dressed in polar gear from head to toe.

Simon - Yeah, I guess I just imagine that Maine is always snowy. So, okay, so it's sunny outside (fades under)

Simon is a senior producer at Radiolab and the reason I asked him to play this game with me is because I wanted to see him in action interviewing for a scene. Simon has a very particular interviewing method for pulling out the details of a scene. A granular approach where he seeks very specific scene components.

Simon - Like, there are mechanics to this thing and if you look at it in this diagrammatic way, you can get a lot better or a lot faster at the craft.

Before we talk about what he means, it might be helpful to define terms for a moment. Often times people refer to a scene as a section in a story that was recorded on location. Like if you were reporting a story about a dairy farmer who installed a new milking machine, you may want to record the farmer early in the morning using this machine to milk the cows. You’d record the cows and the farmer and machine and the effort it takes to milk cows and so on.

But, of course, reporters can’t always record on location. So, in order to include scenes in a story you have to ask the right questions during an interview. Questions that prompt an interviewee to provide all the details necessary for a scene. That way, when it’s time to assemble a story, you can weave all of these details together to paint a picture for listeners.  

Simon says he listens for moments that cause him to think “Ooo. Scene!”

Simon - As I'm interviewing somebody and they say “Yeah, on that day, I had a thought I'd never had before.” Or “That day, I learned some terrible news.” If somebody says that to me, I'm like, oh, this is an important moment in the larger story that I'm being told, because this is a moment of change. This is a moment of discovery. I need to back that person up real quick to get all sorts of other information to help create this scene.

That “other information” includes three key elements. One of them is plot – “this happened, then this happened then this happened.”

Simon - I might jump in and say, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, I want to slow down and go beat by beat through this with you. So where were you before? Where were you before you learned this information?

And then they tell me, “Oh, well, I was standing, I don't know, I was standing in the backyard, and then I walked into the living room, and that's where I had the thought that, oh my gosh, blah, blah, blah.”

Simon says the plot of a scene should, ideally, lead to a problem the character has to deal with or a question they need to answer. In other words, think of it like a small story within the larger story.

Okay. On to the second element: visuals – the view from the perspective of the storyteller.

Simon -  Like, what does the place look like? Where are we in space?... Was it a screen door? Was it a wooden door? Did it creak?

So plot, visuals, and the third key element: meaning.

Simon – The emotional meaning. The emotional importance of that moment.

Simon doesn’t have a list of specific questions to ask. He just sort of asks what comes to mind in the moment to fill in gaps.

But, there are times, and it’s rare, but there are times he’ll walk an interviewee through a scene three separate times. Once for plot. Once for visuals. And, once for meaning.

Rob – Does this approach have a name?

Simon – (laughs) It doesn’t. You want to come up with one? I’ll let you name it if you want to.

Rob – (Laughs) I would be honored. It sounds sort of like it’s a layered interview.

Simon – Sure.

Rob – That’s the best I can come with on the spot. That you’re layering the scene and the different layers are plot, visuals, meaning.

Simon – Sure. Yeah. Let’s call it that. “The Layered Approach.”

Rob – Done.

Clip – Sound of Radiolab episode. Jad, Robert, Simon, and Annie McEwen intro. (fades under)

Simon used “the layered approach” during an interview he recorded for an episode of Radiolab called “Bit Flip.” Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich were the hosts and Simon reported the story with Annie McEwen. A story about a glitch in a voting machine in Belgium.

Clip – Simon says we’ve been exploring what happened on May 18th, 2003 in Brussels. Simon says “The story starts with this guy.”

“This guy” is Emmanuel Williams. Simon told me Emmanuel was not an easy interviewee. He was quiet and reserved.

Simon – We had to, like, crack him open a little bit and when he wouldn’t crack open all the way for us then it’s like I’ll use this technique that I know is going to least give me material that I’ll be able to use. 

In this four minute clip, you’ll hear the results of Simon’s “layered approach.” You may need to push aside all the whiz bang production to hear it, but the layers are there. Plot, visuals, and meaning.

Clip – Emmanuel describes the night he and his colleagues were celebrating a successful election that used computer-run voting machines. Until he gets a call from a precinct in Brussels that says they have a problem – a barely-known politician had received a considerable number of votes, many more than more popular politicians. Emmanuel and his team tested the machine and encountered an unusual result. Something that suggested something strange – even cosmic – happened inside the voting machine.

That’s the opening few minutes to “Bit Fit.” An episode of Radiolab going back to 2019.  Could you hear the elements of the layered approach? I hope so.

So that you can hear him at work using “the layered approach,” I want to bring us back to where I started this episode -- turning the tables on Simon. He had no time to prepare questions. But he quickly fell into the groove of “the layered approach.” He started by clarifying plot.

Simon – He was at your door but you took him home?

And another plot question.

Simon – You invited him into the house?

Then, he asked me to review the plot from the top.

Simon – Just tell it me again, if you would. So, you’re up in Maine, what happened?

After that, he switched gears. He moved to visuals.

Simon –  What does it look like outside?

Once Simon felt like he had the visuals in place, he moved onto the third layer, some emotional meaning.

Simon – What about blood? Are you queasy? When you see the blood, what are you feeling?

I actually wonder if there should be a fourth layer when interviewing for scenes: Dialogue. Asking people “What did you say?” and “What did they say?” Because Simon asked me….

Simon – Did he say anything to you?

…and I had a good answer. One that you’ll hear in a moment because, I pieced together my full story based on all the questions he asked me regarding plot, visuals, and meaning. Actually, it’s not the full story. We stopped at a certain point due to time. But he was able to ask me enough questions so that you can hear how the scene took shape based on those questions.

Music – “Ft. Collins” by Stellwagen Symphonette (starts and fades under)

Rob – One day at my house, I was living in Maine at the time. I was getting ready for work. Music’s loud. I heard the doorbell and I came out of the upstairs bathroom and I stood at the top of the stairs and I looked down. And I could see a pair of feet at the door.

And as I walked down, more of his body revealed itself to me. And, much to my surprise, there was this guy. This guy I didn’t know who was standing there and he had his hand on his forehead and there was blood dripping down his face down his hand and down his arm.

Simon – When you see the blood, what are you feeling?

Rob – I’m, I’m kinda shocked!  Like startled. He’d been bicycling and he clearly looked like he needed help.

Simon – Did he have a helmet on?

Rob – No he didn’t.

Simon – Did he say anything to you?

Rob – Yeah. Um. Through the door he said “Look, I’ve had an accident. I’m wondering if I can use your phone.”

Then I said “Yeah. Sure. C’mon in.”

And then he said “Well, no, no, no. I don’t want to get blood your carpet.”

And I said “Well, you’re not going to get blood on the carpet coz look, there’s tile right here by the door and it cleans up.” So, he came in and I got the phone.

And so, he makes the call. No one answers. And I say “Well, look. I’m more than willing to drive you to the hospital. Let’s go to the E.R.

And he’s like “Naw. That’s alright. If I need some help later at the E.R. I’ll just call. Really, I just want to go home.”

Simon – It sounds like you were worried on this guy’s behalf.

Rob – Ahhh, stranger shows up at your door. Ya know, blood. He’s clearly addled. And I didn’t think driving him home was going to be the proper help. I mean who am I to decide for this guy? I don’t know. But, nevertheless in that moment my gut said hospital.

Music – (fades out)

Simon - Okay, well… I feel like we've gotten pretty damn good coverage of everything that happened. And like hearing you tell the story from you being upstairs and you walking down and seeing those feet, like that was wonderful! Suddenly I am like watching the movie through your eyes in a way that the first three times we went through the story, I definitely wasn't seeing….That was so lovely…

So… after that experience, I stand by “the layered method.” It provided exactly what I was hoping, which was more information and more interesting things.

Simon Adler. He’s a senior producer at Radiolab.

Simon and I did keep talking a little bit longer because he was curious how the rest of my story played out. What I’ve decided to do is upload that whole part of our conversation – from when he starts grilling me through to the end so that you can hear more of how he works and how the story ends.

I will say this about the rest of the story: Wear a freakin’ helmet. And don’t ride a bike with your dog on a leash.

Listen to it all at Transom dot org.

 Theme music

You might remember, a few episodes ago, I wrote about my local public radio station, WCAI. It’s where I record my narration. I reported that WCAI’s owner, WGBH, surprised station staff and the local community when they announced they were moving WCAI and selling the historic building in Woods Hole, Massachusetts that’s been the station’s home for 25 years.

Well, a quick update. There’s good news. Because of a huge outcry from the community, WGBH has said they would sell the building to a local non-profit, and one stepped up. It owns a handful of public buildings, such as the Woods Hole Library and a community hall. The non-profit has been clear: if WGBH sells the building to them, WCAI can stay. In fact, they want WCAI to remain in the community. So,  they’ve offered to let the station stay in the building for five years – rent free.

The question is, will WGBH let WCAI stay where it is? I’m not convinced of it. But, hopefully, I’ll have more good news down the road.

This is Sound School. The backstory to great audio storytelling from PRX and Transom. My editors are Genevieve Sponsler and Jay Allison. Jennifer Jarrett minds the store at Transom’s website. Thanks to Stellwagen Symphonette for the scoring music.

I’m Rob Rosenthal. Thank you very much for listening.