1 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,625 Jane: This is But Why: A Podcast for Curious Kids from Vermont 2 00:00:23,625 --> 00:00:27,045 Public. I'm Jane Lindholm. On this show, we take questions 3 00:00:27,045 --> 00:00:31,545 from curious kids just like you, and we find answers. What's your 4 00:00:31,545 --> 00:00:35,985 favorite color? Colors are all around us. When you walk into a 5 00:00:35,985 --> 00:00:39,045 room, if you're a sighted person, you might notice that 6 00:00:39,045 --> 00:00:43,605 the walls are painted in yellow, gray or white, or off-white, or 7 00:00:43,845 --> 00:00:48,510 eggshell white or creamy white. When you pick out your socks in 8 00:00:48,510 --> 00:00:51,030 the morning, do you grab a different colored pair depending 9 00:00:51,030 --> 00:00:54,210 on your mood? Red, if you're feeling feisty, purple if you're 10 00:00:54,210 --> 00:00:59,370 feeling bold? Flowers come in all kinds of striking hues. And 11 00:00:59,370 --> 00:01:02,130 if you've ever looked at a female cardinal, you'll see the 12 00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:07,290 most beautiful gradations of brown and gold, from her amber 13 00:01:07,290 --> 00:01:11,655 colored chest to her soft gray brown back and a tuft of red at 14 00:01:11,655 --> 00:01:15,195 the crest of her head. We've gotten lots of questions from 15 00:01:15,195 --> 00:01:18,315 you about color, and that's not surprising, because colors 16 00:01:18,315 --> 00:01:19,815 really are everywhere. 17 00:01:19,995 --> 00:01:23,595 Eleanor: My name is Eleanor, and I'm eight years old, and I'm 18 00:01:23,595 --> 00:01:25,995 from Georgia. And where do colors come from? 19 00:01:25,995 --> 00:01:30,735 Hannah: My name is Hannah. I'm from Detroit, Michigan. I'm six 20 00:01:30,735 --> 00:01:34,020 years old. Where do colors come from? 21 00:01:34,012 --> 00:01:37,680 Jane: Let's first talk about what we mean when we say color. 22 00:01:37,748 --> 00:01:41,619 Color has a lot to do with light. When light shines on an 23 00:01:41,687 --> 00:01:45,763 object, that object absorbs certain wavelengths of light and 24 00:01:45,831 --> 00:01:49,635 reflects other ones. The material the object is made out 25 00:01:49,703 --> 00:01:53,914 of determines what wavelengths are absorbed and which ones are 26 00:01:53,982 --> 00:01:58,126 reflected. Our eyes only see the light that has reflected, or 27 00:01:58,194 --> 00:02:02,473 bounced off the object, not the light that is absorbed. And our 28 00:02:02,541 --> 00:02:06,074 brain interprets those wavelengths that have bounced 29 00:02:06,142 --> 00:02:10,081 off as different colors. For example, let's say you have a 30 00:02:08,005 --> 00:03:32,485 Jane: let you know what colors you're seeing, but it also then 31 00:02:10,149 --> 00:02:14,089 nice, ripe strawberry. The strawberry's skin is soaking up 32 00:02:14,157 --> 00:02:18,301 blue and green wavelengths and bouncing the red light back to 33 00:02:18,369 --> 00:02:22,376 your eyes! So you see that strawberry as red. But how do we 34 00:02:22,444 --> 00:02:26,384 know if our brains are all interpreting that red color the 35 00:02:26,452 --> 00:02:30,800 same way? Midhaa, who is 11, from Kerala, India, has a question. 36 00:03:32,485 --> 00:03:36,685 associates those colors with feelings and experiences. For 37 00:03:36,685 --> 00:03:39,445 this part of the conversation, let's bring in our special 38 00:03:39,445 --> 00:03:40,045 guest. 39 00:03:40,225 --> 00:03:42,745 Kassia St. Clair: I am Kassia St. Clair, and I am a writer. 40 00:03:43,105 --> 00:03:46,465 Jane: Kassia is the author of a book called The Secret Lives of 41 00:03:46,465 --> 00:03:51,145 Color. She's been fascinated by color for a long time. When she 42 00:03:51,145 --> 00:03:54,910 was a kid, Kassia's mom was a florist, so she spent a lot of 43 00:03:54,910 --> 00:03:58,450 time at the flower shop after school, observing what kinds of 44 00:03:58,450 --> 00:04:01,690 colors go together in a bouquet of flowers and what types of 45 00:04:01,690 --> 00:04:05,890 flowers are popular for certain occasions. When Kassia became an 46 00:04:05,890 --> 00:04:09,670 adult, she decided to learn and write about colors. In fact, she 47 00:04:09,670 --> 00:04:12,850 wrote a whole book about them. Kassia's work focuses on the 48 00:04:12,850 --> 00:04:16,195 ways we think about colors and how they take on different 49 00:04:16,195 --> 00:04:17,635 cultural meanings. 50 00:04:17,660 --> 00:04:21,080 Kassia St. Clair: The process of how we see color, an awful lot 51 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,440 of it takes place in our brains, and that means that even if the 52 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,460 architecture of everyone's eyes is roughly similar, what's 53 00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:32,180 happening in the brain, kind of behind the scenes can be very, 54 00:04:32,180 --> 00:04:35,480 very different and can be really influenced by our own 55 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,400 experiences. So for example, imagine if you grew up in a 56 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,105 bedroom, and the walls of your bedroom were painted blue, and 57 00:04:44,105 --> 00:04:48,305 you loved your bedroom, forever after, you might have really 58 00:04:48,305 --> 00:04:51,905 positive associations about the color blue. Now, someone else 59 00:04:51,905 --> 00:04:54,665 might feel very differently about blue. They might associate 60 00:04:54,665 --> 00:04:58,145 it with a time they got really embarrassed at school and the 61 00:04:58,145 --> 00:05:02,165 walls of that room were blue so. So your experience of color will 62 00:05:02,165 --> 00:05:05,390 be very different. And the other thing is that not everyone's 63 00:05:05,390 --> 00:05:08,090 eyes are the same. Lots of people have something that's 64 00:05:08,090 --> 00:05:11,630 called color blindness, or color vision deficiency, and so you 65 00:05:11,630 --> 00:05:15,770 might perceive color slightly differently, and that's a lot 66 00:05:15,770 --> 00:05:20,150 more common in boys and men than it is in women, because the 67 00:05:20,390 --> 00:05:26,030 parts of our DNA which are responsible for our eyesight are 68 00:05:26,075 --> 00:05:30,515 encoded in in the part of the DNA that is kind of more present 69 00:05:30,515 --> 00:05:32,855 for women than it is for men. And as technology is now 70 00:05:32,855 --> 00:05:36,935 emerging to kind of correct color vision, so if you do have 71 00:05:36,935 --> 00:05:40,595 color blindness, there are now kind of glasses that you can put 72 00:05:40,595 --> 00:05:44,975 on that can allow you to better perceive the colors that you 73 00:05:44,975 --> 00:05:46,415 might have naturally struggled with. 74 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,780 Jane: In my family, we have arguments about the difference 75 00:05:49,780 --> 00:05:55,120 between blue and purple, and some things that my daughter and 76 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:00,640 I say that is absolutely purple. It's no question. It's purple, 77 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:05,140 and then my son and his dad will say, Are you kidding? That's 78 00:06:05,140 --> 00:06:07,840 blue. There's no way it's purple. It's not even close to 79 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,945 purple. It's just blue. And that's all there is to it. And 80 00:06:10,945 --> 00:06:15,385 we can sit in our corners and never agree on that, and it's 81 00:06:15,445 --> 00:06:18,925 impossible for us to tell, are we seeing different things with 82 00:06:18,925 --> 00:06:24,565 our brains, or are we seeing the same color fundamentally, and we 83 00:06:24,565 --> 00:06:28,165 just think of it in different categories, and it's always kind 84 00:06:28,165 --> 00:06:32,005 of a fun fight for us, because it's just clear how different 85 00:06:32,005 --> 00:06:34,870 our brains see things and how differently we interpret things, 86 00:06:34,870 --> 00:06:38,230 but we don't know whether it's something physical in our brains 87 00:06:38,230 --> 00:06:40,930 or just in the way we think about what category it is. 88 00:06:40,930 --> 00:06:44,230 Kassia St. Clair: It's so mysterious how we, how each 89 00:06:44,290 --> 00:06:48,370 person sees color. I love that there's all this, this mystery. 90 00:06:48,370 --> 00:06:51,190 I think it makes it such a great topic to study. 91 00:06:51,780 --> 00:06:55,080 Eleanor: Hi, my name is Abilene. I'm eight years old. I live in 92 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:00,300 Scotts Valley, California. Why are like dogs can't see that 93 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:04,740 many colors, but humans can and why is vision for different 94 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:05,940 animals different? 95 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:09,420 Susanna: Hi, but why? My name is Susanna. I live in Arkansas, and 96 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:12,240 I'm 10 years old. Why do dogs see different colors than 97 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,020 humans? 98 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:16,060 Jane: We said that most people have three types of cones in our 99 00:07:16,060 --> 00:07:20,260 retinas that help us detect different colors. Dogs have only 100 00:07:20,260 --> 00:07:24,880 two so they see fewer colors than we do. Dogs can't really 101 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,540 distinguish red from other colors, but they can see blue 102 00:07:28,540 --> 00:07:31,660 and yellow. So if you've ever seen a dog having trouble 103 00:07:31,660 --> 00:07:35,500 finding a red ball in a green field, that's probably because 104 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:38,605 the red doesn't stand out against the green grass in their 105 00:07:38,605 --> 00:07:42,505 eyes, they all look like kind of the same shades of muddy brown. 106 00:07:42,865 --> 00:07:47,425 But then again, my dog can smell and hear things way better than 107 00:07:47,425 --> 00:07:52,285 I do, and dogs can see better in the dark than we can. So I guess 108 00:07:52,285 --> 00:07:56,725 you win some, you lose some. You know, some animals actually have 109 00:07:56,725 --> 00:08:00,550 a much wider range of color reception than dogs, or us, 110 00:08:00,550 --> 00:08:04,810 humans. Birds, for example, are known to have four types of 111 00:08:04,810 --> 00:08:08,230 cones, those color sensitive receptors in their eyes, where 112 00:08:08,230 --> 00:08:14,170 we have three. Butterflies have five, and mantis shrimp have 12 113 00:08:14,170 --> 00:08:19,570 to 16 photoreceptors and can even see infrared and polarized 114 00:08:19,570 --> 00:08:23,215 light. It's fun to imagine what the world would look like if you 115 00:08:23,215 --> 00:08:27,115 had the ability to see even more colors or more wavelengths of 116 00:08:27,115 --> 00:08:31,315 light. The world might look very different. We have more color 117 00:08:31,315 --> 00:08:34,735 questions coming up, including, how do colors get their names? 118 00:08:34,795 --> 00:08:36,475 And is white a color? 119 00:08:36,475 --> 00:08:40,675 This is But Why. I'm Jane Lindholm, and today we're 120 00:08:40,675 --> 00:08:43,915 talking with Kassia St. Clair, author of The Secret Lives of 121 00:08:43,915 --> 00:08:47,200 Color. She's answering your colorful questions. 122 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,820 Freya: Hi, I'm Freya. I'm six years old, and how is colors 123 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:52,300 invented? 124 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:59,260 Parker: My name is Parker. I'm six years old. I live in 125 00:08:59,260 --> 00:09:04,360 Birmingham, Alabama. Who discovered color? 126 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Jane: Color has kind of always been around. As long as there's 127 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,880 been light, there's been color, because color is really how we 128 00:09:11,940 --> 00:09:14,880 perceive wavelengths of light that bounce off of other 129 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,480 objects. But beyond that, there's also the way we think 130 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,520 and talk about color, and humans have found lots of ways to make 131 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,820 pigments so we can have different colored toys and 132 00:09:25,820 --> 00:09:27,620 clothes and crayons and paints. 133 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:30,300 Kassia St. Clair: Colors come from lots of different places. 134 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,200 Is it a paint that you have in a tube that you paint a picture 135 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,460 with? Or is it a paint that you put on the wall of your house? 136 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:46,260 Or is it a color of a jumper or a pair of trousers? All of those 137 00:09:46,260 --> 00:09:50,925 colors will come from slightly different places, and most of 138 00:09:50,925 --> 00:09:54,945 the time today, the colors that we use will be made in a 139 00:09:54,945 --> 00:09:58,605 factory. There'll be combinations of different kinds 140 00:09:58,665 --> 00:10:03,105 of chemicals, substances that scientists work with and put 141 00:10:03,105 --> 00:10:06,465 them together in different combinations, and they create 142 00:10:06,465 --> 00:10:11,505 something new, but in the olden days, so, you know, maybe 200 143 00:10:11,505 --> 00:10:16,050 years ago and before then, people weren't generally using 144 00:10:16,350 --> 00:10:20,070 chemicals to make color, or they sometimes were, but more often, 145 00:10:20,070 --> 00:10:22,890 they were using the colors that are found naturally in the world 146 00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:25,170 around us, and there are actually quite a lot of those. 147 00:10:25,170 --> 00:10:30,390 So there are colors in the soil. So depending on where you live, 148 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:33,390 you might be able to go outside, you might notice that the soil 149 00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:36,210 is different colors. The other places where you might find 150 00:10:36,210 --> 00:10:42,195 color are in insects. So lots of insects create color, or indeed, 151 00:10:42,195 --> 00:10:44,535 snails, sea snails create color. 152 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,860 Alaina: I'm Elena, and I'm eight years old, and I'm from Alberta, 153 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:51,800 Canada. How many colors are in the world? 154 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,840 Addison: My name is Addison. I live in Milford, Pennsylvania. 155 00:10:57,140 --> 00:10:59,240 How many colors are in the world? 156 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,680 Gigi: Hi. My name is Gigi. I'm nine years old. I live in Sand 157 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,400 Springs, Oklahoma. Why are there so many different colors? 158 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,485 Jane: There are a couple different ways to think about 159 00:11:09,485 --> 00:11:13,505 this question. Scientists say humans can see millions of 160 00:11:13,505 --> 00:11:17,465 distinct color gradations with our eyes. But there's also 161 00:11:17,465 --> 00:11:19,985 another way of looking at it that has to do with how colors 162 00:11:19,985 --> 00:11:23,945 exist in our minds and our cultures, and Kassia says that 163 00:11:23,945 --> 00:11:25,745 number is infinite. 164 00:11:26,105 --> 00:11:28,625 Kassia St. Clair: The truth is that the number of colors that 165 00:11:28,625 --> 00:11:31,910 there are is everlasting. We're all over the world, and no 166 00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:34,310 matter where you are in the world, you'll be thinking about 167 00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:37,670 colors in new ways, and that can change even over the course of 168 00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:43,370 your lifetime. So, for example, I'm now 40 years old. When I was 169 00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:47,210 growing up, the color avocado green had a really specific 170 00:11:47,210 --> 00:11:51,230 meaning. It was seen as really old fashioned and and something 171 00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:54,815 a color that had been really fashionable in the 1970s. But 172 00:11:54,815 --> 00:11:57,335 now avocado green means something a bit different, 173 00:11:57,335 --> 00:12:00,635 because the world has changed slightly. Avocados have become 174 00:12:00,635 --> 00:12:04,415 much more associated with really young people with avocado toast, 175 00:12:04,415 --> 00:12:08,135 which is something that you may or may not enjoy for your your 176 00:12:08,135 --> 00:12:12,215 breakfast or your lunch, and maybe in ten years time, that 177 00:12:12,215 --> 00:12:14,855 won't be one of the first things you think about. And that 178 00:12:14,855 --> 00:12:18,020 process is happening all the time. We're constantly thinking 179 00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:19,460 about colors in new ways. 180 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:26,780 Alan: My name is Alan. I am six years old. I live in Brewster, 181 00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:30,860 New York. How do colors get their names? 182 00:12:31,740 --> 00:12:33,660 Kassia St. Clair: So there's kind of two processes that 183 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:37,800 happen. There's a kind of official process, by which I 184 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,980 mean a company, for example, a company that makes paint for 185 00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:45,480 your house or paint for your car might create a new color, and 186 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,260 then they'll sit in an office and they'll think about how best 187 00:12:49,260 --> 00:12:53,040 to name it. So for example, if a nail polish company is creating 188 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:58,605 a new red polish at Christmas time, they would probably want 189 00:12:58,605 --> 00:13:02,385 the name to indicate the redness of the color. But they probably 190 00:13:02,385 --> 00:13:05,985 also want a name that is suggestive of Christmas, and so 191 00:13:05,985 --> 00:13:09,585 they might call it Santa's Cape, for example, but the exact same 192 00:13:09,585 --> 00:13:14,385 color, if it's being released in May or June, and this might have 193 00:13:14,385 --> 00:13:17,670 a very different name. All of a sudden, it might be Apple Red or 194 00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:20,430 something like that. But you also, again, have this kind of 195 00:13:20,430 --> 00:13:26,250 more open process by which people, ordinary people, aren't 196 00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:30,030 negotiating the names themselves. And so a really good 197 00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:34,290 example of this is the color Scarlet, which is a bright shade 198 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:39,690 of red. Now, Scarlet actually, initially wasn't the name of a 199 00:13:39,690 --> 00:13:44,055 color. It was the name of a type of cloth, a really beautiful, 200 00:13:44,295 --> 00:13:51,315 very fine, very luxurious, very soft woolen cloth. And it made 201 00:13:51,315 --> 00:13:54,795 sense, when you were producing such a wonderful cloth, to dye 202 00:13:54,795 --> 00:13:58,275 it the most expensive color. No one wants to buy the most 203 00:13:58,275 --> 00:14:01,695 beautiful cloth in the world and have it a color that is really 204 00:14:01,695 --> 00:14:04,980 unfashionable, and the color that was most fashionable and 205 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:08,520 expensive at the time when Scarlet was the most beautiful 206 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:13,020 cloth, was a bright red. And over time, the color that this 207 00:14:13,020 --> 00:14:16,740 cloth was always dyed borrowed the name for the type of cloth. 208 00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:20,400 And so Scarlet went from being a type of cloth to a type of red. 209 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,160 Jane: So it would almost be as if cotton was a name for a 210 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,780 color, or polyester was a name of a color that we all identify. 211 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:30,320 Kassia St. Clair: Exactly. 212 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,820 Jane: What about the colors that are seen as just sort of your 213 00:14:34,820 --> 00:14:38,420 basic colors of the rainbow? How do we get names for things like 214 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,900 red, orange, blue, yellow? 215 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:45,260 Kassia St. Clair: In English and in a lot of other languages, you 216 00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:49,400 have kind of around about the same number of colors that we 217 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,540 all agree are the kind of basic colors, red, green, blue. But 218 00:14:53,540 --> 00:14:57,440 that isn't the case for all languages. So not all languages 219 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,180 agree on what is a basic color. So some languages only have 220 00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:07,745 three basic color terms. They will divide the entire spectrum 221 00:15:07,745 --> 00:15:11,465 of all the colors in the rainbow into just three. They'll have 222 00:15:11,525 --> 00:15:17,105 light colors, dark colors and red. Other languages and other 223 00:15:17,105 --> 00:15:20,645 countries have, you know, divide the rainbow up differently. So 224 00:15:20,645 --> 00:15:25,085 for example, in Russia and in the Russian language, blue isn't 225 00:15:25,145 --> 00:15:28,730 one color, it's divided into two. There's light blue and 226 00:15:28,730 --> 00:15:33,530 there's dark blue, siniy and goluboy. And in Korea, they 227 00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:36,830 divide green up into two, regular green and kind of 228 00:15:37,070 --> 00:15:42,530 yellowy green. And lots of languages have added or or 229 00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:46,130 gotten rid of colors over time. So if you were to go to Japan 230 00:15:46,130 --> 00:15:50,930 around about 100 years ago, they would have the same word for 231 00:15:50,930 --> 00:15:54,815 both blue and green. They now have separate words, but that's 232 00:15:54,815 --> 00:15:59,735 pretty recent. So yeah, the answer is that those basic color 233 00:15:59,735 --> 00:16:03,635 terms depend on what your culture and what your language 234 00:16:03,635 --> 00:16:08,615 believe is a basic color, and not all languages agree. 235 00:16:08,855 --> 00:16:11,675 Jane: Think about that for a second. If you live in a place 236 00:16:11,675 --> 00:16:14,855 with a language that differentiates between green and 237 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:18,980 blue, you might walk outside and say, hey, that car is green and 238 00:16:18,980 --> 00:16:22,520 that other car is blue. But if you speak a language that sees 239 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,420 green and blue as one color, your brain will think, look, 240 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,480 there are two blue cars in slightly different shades! 241 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,340 Charlie: My name is Charlie. I'm six years old. I'm from Long 242 00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:38,225 Beach, California. Is white a color or not? 243 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,060 Kassia St. Clair: So that's a really good question, and there 244 00:16:41,060 --> 00:16:44,060 is a way that a physicist might answer it, and then there's the 245 00:16:44,060 --> 00:16:47,960 way an everyday person would answer it. And a physicist would 246 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,280 tell you that white and black are not really colors, they're 247 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:58,580 more expressions of light. So if you've got the full spectrum of 248 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,005 visible light, you will perceive that as white. And if you've got 249 00:17:03,005 --> 00:17:07,505 none of it, you will perceive that thing as black. But for 250 00:17:07,745 --> 00:17:14,165 ordinary people, we go into a shop and we pick white paint, we 251 00:17:14,165 --> 00:17:19,145 pick a black pair of jeans, and so we experience white and black 252 00:17:19,145 --> 00:17:23,585 as colors. Those are useful color groups, and they are as 253 00:17:23,585 --> 00:17:28,250 valid a color as blue or green. But they're not, these things 254 00:17:28,250 --> 00:17:31,790 aren't perfectly white in the way that a physicist is thinking 255 00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:34,910 of, as an expression of light, or perfectly black, the absence 256 00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:38,990 of light, but they are in the category. They are a type of 257 00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:43,190 black. They are a type of white. But it's very, very difficult to 258 00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:48,275 experience pure white or pure dark. There's a substance that 259 00:17:48,275 --> 00:17:52,055 was created a few years ago called vantablack, and that 260 00:17:52,055 --> 00:17:59,495 substance absorbs 99.965% of the visible spectrum. So what this 261 00:17:59,495 --> 00:18:03,215 looked like is, it's really uncanny. Essentially, you could 262 00:18:03,215 --> 00:18:08,075 no longer see any depth in an object that's coated with the 263 00:18:08,075 --> 00:18:12,380 substance. And what do I mean by that? So I was shown vantablack 264 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,540 on a piece of crumpled up aluminum or aluminum foil. So 265 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,440 ordinarily, when you see a piece of foil, you can see that it 266 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,440 has, it's got different textures. It's been scrumpled up 267 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,100 a little bit. Different areas of the foil reflect light in 268 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:32,780 different ways. And so you know that that object is 3D, you know 269 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:36,425 it's got bits that are further away from you and closer towards 270 00:18:36,425 --> 00:18:41,405 you. But when you coat that same piece of foil with vantablack, 271 00:18:41,405 --> 00:18:46,085 which absorbs 99.965% of the light, all you can see is a 272 00:18:46,085 --> 00:18:50,825 flat, black space. You know that that is a piece of crumpled 273 00:18:50,825 --> 00:18:55,265 foil, but you are no longer able to see any definition in the 274 00:18:55,265 --> 00:19:00,650 foil at all. It just looks flat. And so a round ball looks the 275 00:19:00,650 --> 00:19:04,730 same as a circle. And a car wouldn't like a car. It would 276 00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:08,990 just look like an outline of a car. So it reduces our ability 277 00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:10,310 to perceive depth. 278 00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:13,610 Jane: I want to play a prank on my family now. I want to paint 279 00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:16,970 all of my chairs vantablack and then say, go sit down. And 280 00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:19,610 they'd be like but there's nothing to sit on. Because it 281 00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:22,115 just it wouldn't, it would look like the shape of an outline of 282 00:19:22,115 --> 00:19:24,635 a chair, but it wouldn't look like... I wouldn't be able to 283 00:19:24,635 --> 00:19:28,655 see that there is a flat place for me to sit and a place for me 284 00:19:28,655 --> 00:19:31,115 to put my back. It just looks like one solid... 285 00:19:31,475 --> 00:19:32,855 Kassia St. Clair: Like a blob. Yeah, 286 00:19:33,695 --> 00:19:34,655 Jane: that's very cool. 287 00:19:34,655 --> 00:19:35,375 Kassia St. Clair: Very cool. 288 00:19:35,375 --> 00:19:38,795 Jane: We've learned a lot today about how our eyes and brains 289 00:19:38,795 --> 00:19:42,455 work together to interpret color and how different people and 290 00:19:42,455 --> 00:19:45,980 cultures and languages think about colors differently. Let's 291 00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:47,660 end with this question from Noah. 292 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,640 Noah: I live in South Salem, New York, and I'm 10 years old. Why 293 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,860 do colors make you feel different emotions? 294 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,300 Kassia St. Clair: So what you've got going on is you've got the 295 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:02,340 way that a kind of the broadest culture feel about a color. So 296 00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:06,540 this is information that we pick up from the world around us. So 297 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:10,260 that includes adverts that we see, the language that we're 298 00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:14,520 speaking with, and so on and so forth. So you have really broad 299 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,085 generalizations, like red is often associated with action, so 300 00:20:20,085 --> 00:20:26,325 things like anger or stop or, you know, really kind of words 301 00:20:26,325 --> 00:20:29,205 that need to be obeyed immediately, ideas that need to 302 00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:34,125 be obeyed immediately, things that are sudden. And we kind of 303 00:20:34,545 --> 00:20:39,285 take this understanding into our experience of the word red. You 304 00:20:39,285 --> 00:20:42,510 then might have more specific things. You might have something 305 00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:46,710 in your own city. You might have like the metro. All the metro 306 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:50,310 stations use red signage, and so that will probably make you 307 00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:54,750 think of transport, even if you're not immediately aware 308 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:57,210 that that is part of your understanding of the color red. 309 00:20:57,450 --> 00:21:00,390 It will inform your understanding of it. And then 310 00:21:00,390 --> 00:21:04,995 you have, like, what I call the throw on the, on the sofa. You 311 00:21:04,995 --> 00:21:08,235 then have the kind of your own personal experience of it. How, 312 00:21:08,775 --> 00:21:11,175 how did you grow up? Did you have toys that were this 313 00:21:11,175 --> 00:21:15,075 particular color when you were growing up? Was it your parents' 314 00:21:15,075 --> 00:21:18,375 favorite color? Is it your favorite color? Did you choose 315 00:21:18,375 --> 00:21:22,035 to name your dog Scarlet, for example? And all these things 316 00:21:22,035 --> 00:21:26,415 will act together in our experience of how we feel about 317 00:21:26,415 --> 00:21:31,320 a color. But you also have other things going on, possibly, and 318 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,500 this is where it becomes really difficult, because there is some 319 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:39,060 evidence, and lots of people believe that certain colors make 320 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:43,980 all humans feel a certain way, just because that's how we're 321 00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:49,260 hard wired to behave. So lots of people believe that red, again, 322 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:53,145 to take the red example, makes us gives us kind of a jolt of 323 00:21:53,145 --> 00:21:55,725 energy and makes us more aggressive, makes us more angry, 324 00:21:55,725 --> 00:21:59,325 makes us more passionate. The problem is, is that it's 325 00:21:59,385 --> 00:22:04,425 absolutely impossible to test for this in a in a scientific 326 00:22:04,425 --> 00:22:09,585 way, because you cannot remove a human being from everything, 327 00:22:09,585 --> 00:22:13,890 from their culture, and so you can't really completely unpick 328 00:22:13,950 --> 00:22:18,030 what it is that's ingrained in all humans and what it is that 329 00:22:18,030 --> 00:22:20,670 we grow up with and that we understand from living in the 330 00:22:20,670 --> 00:22:21,450 world around us. 331 00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:25,470 Jane: Right, because sometimes you'll hear people say, if you 332 00:22:25,470 --> 00:22:28,050 want to create a calming environment for anybody who's 333 00:22:28,050 --> 00:22:31,290 going to come into that room, you should paint the room yellow 334 00:22:31,290 --> 00:22:35,010 or blue. I can't even remember which ones, but what you're 335 00:22:35,010 --> 00:22:39,075 saying is we don't know if that's because everybody's brain 336 00:22:39,615 --> 00:22:42,315 thinks of that color as a calming color, or if it's 337 00:22:42,315 --> 00:22:45,435 because we think it's calming, because that's what we've grown 338 00:22:45,435 --> 00:22:47,895 up with, and that's what our culture has told us. There's no 339 00:22:47,895 --> 00:22:51,435 way to figure that out scientifically yet, at any rate. 340 00:22:51,435 --> 00:22:51,855 Kassia St. Clair: Yet. 341 00:22:51,855 --> 00:22:55,275 Jane: Is there any other story about color that you think just 342 00:22:55,695 --> 00:22:56,895 blow everyone's mind? 343 00:22:57,975 --> 00:23:01,080 Kassia St. Clair: Yeah, so I think a lot of people think of 344 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,220 pink as being quite a girly color and blue as being quite a 345 00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:09,780 boyish color. But if you go back a hundred years, actually, 346 00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:13,380 people thought of it completely the opposite way around. People 347 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:18,060 thought about pink as being a color for boys and blue as being 348 00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:21,645 a color for girls. And if you look at the way that they talked 349 00:23:21,645 --> 00:23:25,905 about blue and pink, then they said that pink was more decided, 350 00:23:25,905 --> 00:23:29,505 it was more masculine, it was kind of more aggressive, and 351 00:23:29,505 --> 00:23:33,165 blue was more gentle and feminine. And I've seen that in 352 00:23:33,165 --> 00:23:37,785 my own lifetime. So my father, he was born in 1925 and when he 353 00:23:37,785 --> 00:23:41,745 was growing up, blue was the more was the more feminine 354 00:23:41,745 --> 00:23:45,825 color, and pink was the more masculine color. And he and his 355 00:23:45,870 --> 00:23:50,130 partner, Gilly, they had kind of essentially matching walking 356 00:23:50,130 --> 00:23:53,430 sticks. One was blue and one was pink, and my dad's one was the 357 00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:56,610 pink one, and Gilly's one was the blue one. And that seemed 358 00:23:56,610 --> 00:24:01,530 entirely natural and normal to them. And I find it really funny 359 00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:07,234 that in just in a relatively short period of time, in just 360 00:24:07,234 --> 00:24:07,275 100 years in the span of one life, that meaning and 361 00:24:07,275 --> 00:24:10,815 understanding has completely switched around. And I think 362 00:24:10,815 --> 00:24:14,175 it's really interesting to imagine, if we all grow up to 363 00:24:14,175 --> 00:24:17,955 100, what color meanings would have completely shifted over in 364 00:24:17,955 --> 00:24:21,735 our lifetime. Will green, you know, now, I think people think 365 00:24:21,735 --> 00:24:28,755 people think of green as being like kind of a natural color, 366 00:24:28,995 --> 00:24:30,269 and to do with nature, maybe that won't be the case in a 367 00:24:30,269 --> 00:24:30,286 hundred years time. Maybe we'll think of something else. Or 368 00:24:30,286 --> 00:24:31,080 maybe when we think of yellow, we won't immediately think of 369 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,320 sunshine, we'll think of something else. We just don't 370 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,320 know yet. And again, this is why I love the subject of color. 371 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,000 Jane: And honestly, at this point, if you like pink or blue 372 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,520 or green or yellow or whatever color you can like whatever 373 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,360 color you want! 374 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:48,600 Kassia St. Clair: Absolutely. Colors are for everyone. And 375 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,260 these meanings that we attach to them, that sometimes seem so 376 00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:56,925 rigid and like rules, they are going to change. They do change. 377 00:24:56,925 --> 00:25:00,345 We can see them changing. And so even if something seems like a 378 00:25:00,345 --> 00:25:02,685 really hard and fast rule, something that definitely should 379 00:25:02,685 --> 00:25:05,865 be obeyed, just remember the example of pink and blue. They 380 00:25:06,165 --> 00:25:09,225 feel a certain way now, but that wasn't always the case, and it 381 00:25:09,225 --> 00:25:11,985 may not always be the case in the future. Who knows? In ten 382 00:25:11,985 --> 00:25:14,745 years time, twenty years time, this may have all changed. 383 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,603 Jane: Thanks to Kassia St. Clair, author of The Secret 384 00:25:17,664 --> 00:25:21,172 Lives of Color, for helping us think about the universe of 385 00:25:21,233 --> 00:25:25,104 color and how much it's tied to the way we think about the world 386 00:25:25,165 --> 00:25:28,371 around us. Do you have a favorite color? We'd love to 387 00:25:28,431 --> 00:25:32,061 know and how that color makes you feel. Send us a video, and 388 00:25:32,121 --> 00:25:36,053 we'll pop it up on our Instagram and YouTube pages. As always, if 389 00:25:36,114 --> 00:25:39,562 you have a question about anything, have an adult record. 390 00:25:39,623 --> 00:25:43,252 You asking it on a smartphone using an app like voice memos, 391 00:25:43,313 --> 00:25:45,611 then have your adult email the file to 392 00:25:45,672 --> 00:25:49,059 questions@butwhykids.org. Our show is produced by Melody 393 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,931 Bodette, Sarah Baik and me, Jane Lindholm at Vermont Public and 394 00:25:52,991 --> 00:25:56,561 distributed by PRX. Our video producer is Joey Palumbo, and 395 00:25:56,621 --> 00:26:00,130 our theme music is by Luke Reynolds. If you like our show, 396 00:26:00,190 --> 00:26:04,062 please have your adults help you give us a thumbs up or a review 397 00:26:04,122 --> 00:26:07,812 on whatever podcast platform you use. It helps other kids and 398 00:26:07,873 --> 00:26:11,502 families find us. We'll be back in two weeks with an all new 399 00:26:11,563 --> 00:26:13,620 episode. Until then, stay curious!