1 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:23,520 Jane: This is But Why, A Podcast for Curious Kids from Vermont 2 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,745 Public. I'm Jane Lindholm. On this show, we take questions 3 00:00:26,745 --> 00:00:31,365 from curious kids just like you, and we find answers. Every now 4 00:00:31,365 --> 00:00:34,125 and then, actually, more frequently than you might think, 5 00:00:34,185 --> 00:00:38,865 we get questions that are really, really big and very hard 6 00:00:38,865 --> 00:00:41,685 to answer. These are the questions from kids who are 7 00:00:41,685 --> 00:00:45,465 wrestling with what we call "existential questions," things 8 00:00:45,465 --> 00:00:49,410 like: Why do humans exist? Why is life sometimes unfair? 9 00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:54,510 Questions about punishment and kindness, how we define art, or, 10 00:00:54,510 --> 00:00:57,270 what if we're all living in a dream and we just don't know it? 11 00:00:57,990 --> 00:01:01,110 Another way to describe these kinds of questions is to say 12 00:01:01,110 --> 00:01:05,670 they're philosophical in nature. What's philosophy? 13 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,740 Scott Hershovitz: My favorite definition of philosophy 14 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:11,700 actually comes from my son from when he was in second grade. 15 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,320 Jane: That's Scott Hershovitz . He teaches philosophy and law at 16 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:16,640 the University of Michigan. 17 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:19,040 Scott Hershovitz: He said philosophy is the art of 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,640 thinking, which I think is a really perfect description. So 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,720 what we do when we do philosophy is we think about the world, and 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,900 we think about ourselves, and we try to understand them better. 21 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,260 Jane: Because Scott's a philosophy professor, he spends 22 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:36,125 a lot of his time thinking about these kinds of complicated 23 00:01:36,125 --> 00:01:39,905 questions that don't always have a straightforward answer. Like, 24 00:01:39,905 --> 00:01:43,745 why do we need to follow the law, or why do parents or other 25 00:01:43,745 --> 00:01:46,385 adults get to tell you what you should or shouldn't do? 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,540 Scott Hershovitz: What are the reasons to let some other people 27 00:01:49,540 --> 00:01:53,020 decide what you're going to do sometimes, and when are those 28 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:56,260 times, and when is it okay for you to do what you want to do? 29 00:01:56,260 --> 00:02:00,100 So that's a philosophy question, because the way to learn about 30 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:03,720 it is not to go into a laboratory, and it's not to go 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,460 search for, you know, things in the woods, or it's not to do 32 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:11,160 science. It's just to think really carefully about the 33 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,900 problem and see what we can learn about it. 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,600 Jane: Well, let's talk about some of the... what we call 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,220 existential questions that kids have sent us. And so the idea of 36 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:23,880 an existential question is it's a question about our existence. 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,180 It's a question about who we are and what the world is and why it 38 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:30,660 works the way it does, and how do we know that? And one of 39 00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:34,680 those fundamental questions is one we've gotten from a lot of 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,465 kids who wondered, basically, just what's the meaning of life? 41 00:02:39,465 --> 00:02:41,445 What's the purpose of life? 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,403 Ben: My name is Ben. I'm from Philadelphia. My question is, 43 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:49,820 Nick: My name is Nick. I live in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm seven 44 00:02:44,458 --> 00:02:45,940 what's the meaning of life? 45 00:02:49,820 --> 00:02:53,480 years old. Why are people's purpose made? 46 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,900 Leighton: Hi. My name is Leighton. I am eight years old. 47 00:02:56,900 --> 00:03:01,400 I live in Austin, Texas. My question is, why do humans 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,120 exist? 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:08,105 Aviad: My name is Aviad. I am six years old. I live in Israel. 50 00:03:08,165 --> 00:03:11,165 I want to know what is life for? 51 00:03:11,465 --> 00:03:16,805 Violet: My name is Violet. I'm five years old. I live in Eagle 52 00:03:16,805 --> 00:03:20,525 art, California. Why do people even exist? 53 00:03:20,525 --> 00:03:27,005 Avery: Hi. This is Avery. I am seven year seven and a half. I 54 00:03:27,050 --> 00:03:32,990 live in Seattle. Why are we here this moment, and how did we 55 00:03:32,990 --> 00:03:34,130 exist? 56 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,940 Scott Hershovitz: Yeah, I think this is such an important 57 00:03:36,940 --> 00:03:41,080 question, and it's a question that everybody thinks about. And 58 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,320 I think there's different ways in which we might go and going 59 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,320 about trying to answer it. So some people who are religious, 60 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,100 some people who believe in God, think that maybe the world was 61 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:55,720 designed and we were put here for a reason, and that maybe 62 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,085 that we can try and find out what God's purpose is for us. 63 00:04:00,745 --> 00:04:04,705 And then there's non-religious ways of thinking about this 64 00:04:04,705 --> 00:04:07,405 problem. Just think about the size of the universe. I think 65 00:04:07,405 --> 00:04:13,165 how big it is, right? It's it's billions and billions of light 66 00:04:13,165 --> 00:04:16,045 years across, and there's billions of billions of stars 67 00:04:16,045 --> 00:04:19,225 and probably billions and billions of planets, and we're 68 00:04:19,225 --> 00:04:24,430 just on a tiny planet, right? That's the third rock from a sun 69 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:28,870 that from a star that's not even all that specialist star. I 70 00:04:28,870 --> 00:04:31,510 think, Wow, this the whole universe couldn't really be 71 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:37,270 about us, right? So I'm not sure that there's a purpose to our 72 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:42,970 lives. I'm not sure that there's meaning to our lives, but I 73 00:04:42,970 --> 00:04:46,735 think we can give our own lives a purpose, and we can make 74 00:04:46,735 --> 00:04:50,215 meaning in our lives. So that's a distinction. Philosophers 75 00:04:50,215 --> 00:04:53,935 sometimes draw a difference between finding meaning, what is 76 00:04:53,995 --> 00:04:57,235 the meaning of our lives, and finding meaning in our lives. 77 00:04:57,235 --> 00:05:00,835 And so I think one of the coolest things about getting the 78 00:05:00,835 --> 00:05:03,775 chance to be a person is deciding what, what meaning 79 00:05:03,775 --> 00:05:08,140 you'll have in your life. And that may be meaning that you 80 00:05:08,140 --> 00:05:10,960 find in important relationships, your relationships with your 81 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,560 family and your friends. It might be meaning that you find 82 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,340 in work that you do right. Maybe you'll be a doctor or a 83 00:05:18,340 --> 00:05:21,460 firefighter and you'll get to do really meaningful things, 84 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:26,380 helping people or saving people, or maybe it'll be meaning that 85 00:05:26,380 --> 00:05:30,145 you create through art. There's so many different things you can 86 00:05:30,145 --> 00:05:34,105 do that will be meaningful to you and meaningful to other 87 00:05:34,105 --> 00:05:36,985 people. And so I think instead of trying to find out what we're 88 00:05:36,985 --> 00:05:39,625 for, we should think of the world as the canvas that's been 89 00:05:39,625 --> 00:05:42,865 put in front of us and we can decide what we're going to paint 90 00:05:43,345 --> 00:05:43,585 on it. 91 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,980 Jane: Janelle, in Vancouver, puts a slight twist on the 92 00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:48,700 question. 93 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:52,060 Janelle: What is the point of life if you're going to die 94 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:52,960 anyway? 95 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:57,160 Scott Hershovitz: Oh, wow, that is a really tough question. So 96 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,060 here's a way to think about it. So the thought behind Janelle's 97 00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:05,440 question is, if something's going to end, then maybe it 98 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,520 doesn't have a point. Maybe it's not worth engaging in. And so 99 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:12,640 I'm thinking right now about other things that have ends, and 100 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,225 wondering whether that's true, right? So a book has an end, 101 00:06:16,525 --> 00:06:20,365 right? But I love books. I love them, even though I know the 102 00:06:20,365 --> 00:06:24,385 story is going to come to an end, or music comes to an end, 103 00:06:24,385 --> 00:06:28,705 but I still think music can be really lovely, and maybe a human 104 00:06:28,705 --> 00:06:32,185 life is like that, right, so it's the kind of thing that has 105 00:06:32,185 --> 00:06:36,985 an end, right? There can be lots of beauty and significance and 106 00:06:36,985 --> 00:06:39,685 important things that happen inside that life. 107 00:06:39,730 --> 00:06:43,990 And I'll go one step further. There are lots of philosophers 108 00:06:43,990 --> 00:06:47,590 who have thought that it's the end of our lives that gives 109 00:06:47,590 --> 00:06:51,670 meaning to what happens in them, right? So just imagine what it 110 00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:57,010 would be like to be a mortal, to live absolutely forever, right? 111 00:06:57,010 --> 00:07:00,910 And if you were immortal, you really wouldn't have to make any 112 00:07:00,910 --> 00:07:04,615 choices, right? You wouldn't have to make a choice about say, 113 00:07:04,915 --> 00:07:08,995 are you going to be a doctor or a firefighter, right? Or are you 114 00:07:08,995 --> 00:07:13,255 going to be an artist or an auto mechanic? Because if you were 115 00:07:13,255 --> 00:07:17,035 immortal, you could be a doctor and then a firefighter and then 116 00:07:17,035 --> 00:07:21,535 an artist and then an auto mechanic. And you wouldn't have 117 00:07:21,535 --> 00:07:24,175 to decide what instruments you were going to learn to play, 118 00:07:24,175 --> 00:07:27,820 there'd be time to learn to play all of them. And many 119 00:07:27,820 --> 00:07:31,060 philosophers have thought it's the scarcity, it's the having to 120 00:07:31,060 --> 00:07:34,720 make a decision, it's the not being able to do everything that 121 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,100 makes our choices important. So maybe it's the end of our lives 122 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:41,440 that gives the things we do within them appoint 123 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,260 Jane: Well, here's another question that I think a lot of 124 00:07:45,260 --> 00:07:49,700 us have wondered, too, and often when hard things come into our 125 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:50,300 lives. 126 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,860 Viven: My name is Viven. I am six years old. I am from 127 00:07:55,340 --> 00:07:59,480 Gardenside, Pennsylvania. My question is, why is life sad? 128 00:08:01,220 --> 00:08:05,120 Scott Hershovitz: Yeah, why is life sad? Well, I think there's, 129 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,680 there's different kinds of reasons that we get sad. So 130 00:08:09,740 --> 00:08:14,240 sometimes we're sad because say we've lost someone that we love, 131 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,660 or maybe we've lost something that we love, or maybe there was 132 00:08:17,660 --> 00:08:21,200 an activity that we were excited about, and now that's behind us, 133 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,445 and we're feeling a little bit sad. And I think one thing to 134 00:08:25,445 --> 00:08:29,825 remember when we're sad for those kinds of reasons is that 135 00:08:29,825 --> 00:08:34,505 it's, in some ways, the other side of love. So, you know, to 136 00:08:34,505 --> 00:08:38,045 love someone is to feel really attached to them. And it's it's 137 00:08:38,405 --> 00:08:41,345 what comes along with feeling really attached to them as being 138 00:08:41,345 --> 00:08:45,545 sad when we lose them, and that can be true for things in our 139 00:08:45,545 --> 00:08:48,950 lives, special objects that we care about, or special times in 140 00:08:48,950 --> 00:08:52,790 our lives. Maybe you love going to camp, or maybe you love going 141 00:08:52,790 --> 00:08:56,030 to the swimming pool, and that makes it a little bit sad to 142 00:08:56,030 --> 00:09:02,210 leave, but that sadness is a marker of something really 143 00:09:02,210 --> 00:09:05,090 special, of the love that you have for it. And they kind of go 144 00:09:05,090 --> 00:09:05,690 together. 145 00:09:06,410 --> 00:09:08,810 When I was thinking about this question, I think there's 146 00:09:08,810 --> 00:09:12,395 another kind of reason we get sad, which is when people don't 147 00:09:12,395 --> 00:09:16,955 treat us very nicely. And you know, we really hope that people 148 00:09:16,955 --> 00:09:19,355 are going to be kind, and they're going to, philosophers 149 00:09:19,355 --> 00:09:21,455 like to use the word goodwill. They're going to show us 150 00:09:21,515 --> 00:09:26,195 goodwill and treat us respectfully. And we get sad 151 00:09:26,195 --> 00:09:30,455 when they don't, because it doesn't seem like they're taking 152 00:09:30,455 --> 00:09:35,300 us seriously or caring about us, and that kind of sadness I think 153 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:39,380 we could live without. I think we could all do a better job of 154 00:09:39,620 --> 00:09:43,940 treating each other nicely and showing respect and being kind, 155 00:09:43,940 --> 00:09:47,900 and then we'd have less to be sad about. But the first kind of 156 00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:51,380 sadness, the sadness that just comes along with love, I think 157 00:09:51,380 --> 00:09:54,440 it's actually a good thing that we have it in our life, because 158 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,245 we really wouldn't have love without it. 159 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,320 Stella: My name is Stella. I am eight years old. live in 160 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,940 Singapore. Why are people always too distracted by being in life 161 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,580 to ever think about the theory of it? 162 00:10:08,660 --> 00:10:11,300 Scott Hershovitz: Well, I love this question, because I think 163 00:10:11,420 --> 00:10:14,480 that it's most grownups who are too distracted by being in life, 164 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,140 but kids are not. And I think one is they have a lot of 165 00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:21,080 responsibilities. It's the grownup maybe that has to cook 166 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:26,240 dinner or do the laundry or go work at a job to have money to 167 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,440 pay for all the things that we need in life, and that stuff can 168 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,685 take up a lot of time, and it can be very stressful. And I 169 00:10:34,685 --> 00:10:38,225 think when we feel busy and stressful, it's hard to take 170 00:10:38,225 --> 00:10:41,525 time to think about these deeper questions, these harder 171 00:10:41,525 --> 00:10:45,005 questions to answer, especially if we're not sure that we're 172 00:10:45,005 --> 00:10:48,365 going to find answers. But part of the reason that I like to 173 00:10:48,365 --> 00:10:50,945 teach philosophy, and part of the reason that I like to talk 174 00:10:50,945 --> 00:10:54,545 about philosophy with kids and with other adults, is I think 175 00:10:54,545 --> 00:10:58,610 that even grownups do have the same kind of curiosity about the 176 00:10:58,610 --> 00:11:02,870 world that kids do, and that it's good to slow down sometimes 177 00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:06,290 and think about that, think about the harder questions, in 178 00:11:06,290 --> 00:11:10,670 part because it can remind you what's beautiful about the world 179 00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:14,870 or what's puzzling in it, or to notice the things that are 180 00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:20,255 special about it, and partly because it may lead you to to 181 00:11:20,255 --> 00:11:23,135 wonder whether you should be spending so much time on things 182 00:11:23,135 --> 00:11:26,615 like your job or the dishes or laundry. Maybe those actually 183 00:11:26,615 --> 00:11:30,455 aren't the best ways to spend all of our time, even though 184 00:11:30,455 --> 00:11:32,975 they can be important things, and philosophy invites you to 185 00:11:32,975 --> 00:11:33,695 think about that. 186 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,780 Jane: So let's dive deeper into some of these questions that 187 00:11:36,780 --> 00:11:42,120 arise when we're thinking about existence and the world. Here's 188 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,240 one from Gemma, who's seven and lives in Vermont. 189 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,580 Gemma: Where was I before I was born? 190 00:11:47,740 --> 00:11:50,560 Jane: We have a whole episode that's all about how babies are 191 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:54,220 made, scientifically speaking. We'll link to that episode in 192 00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:58,120 our show notes. We know a lot about how the physical pieces of 193 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,580 us come together from the DNA of our biological parents, but how 194 00:12:02,580 --> 00:12:07,680 our minds or our essences form remains a big mystery. 195 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,440 Scott Hershovitz: Yeah, it's a it's a real puzzle, and it's, 196 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:13,920 it's connected to some of the hardest problems that I think 197 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,120 philosophers but also a lot of scientists are trying to figure 198 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,920 out. So we're made out of physical things, but that human 199 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:27,500 being has a mind, right? And we don't really understand what the 200 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:31,760 relationship is between the stuff that we're made out of and 201 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,140 the minds that we have, right? So some people think that our 202 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:40,720 minds just are our brains, right? And other people think 203 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,020 that our minds must be different things than our brains, but then 204 00:12:44,020 --> 00:12:48,160 it's not clear what they are or how they relate to each other, 205 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,860 and I don't know the answers to this. I hope some kids listening 206 00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:52,420 will help us figure it out someday. 207 00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:57,280 Teddy: My name is Teddy I'm eight years old, and I live in 208 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:06,220 London, England, and this is my question: how do we know life is 209 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:07,480 not a dream? 210 00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:12,220 Scott Hershovitz: So I have met so many people that wonder about 211 00:13:12,220 --> 00:13:16,120 this, young and old in philosophy, there was a guy 212 00:13:16,165 --> 00:13:20,005 named Descartes, who was also a mathematician, who was sitting 213 00:13:20,005 --> 00:13:23,545 by the fire one day, and he was wondering whether he might be 214 00:13:23,545 --> 00:13:29,665 dreaming everything. And even thousands of years before that, 215 00:13:29,725 --> 00:13:36,025 there's an ancient Dallas text called the Zhuangzi, where a man 216 00:13:36,025 --> 00:13:40,390 named Zhuang Zhu said, one day he dreamed he was a butterfly 217 00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:44,230 floating and flitting around, and then he woke up, and he was 218 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:49,150 solid, unmistakable, ZhuangZhu, but he wondered whether he was 219 00:13:49,450 --> 00:13:52,870 ZhuangZhu who dreamed he was a butterfly, or whether he was a 220 00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:55,090 butterfly who dreamed he was ZhuangZhu. 221 00:13:55,090 --> 00:14:00,190 And so human beings have just been wondering about this 222 00:14:00,190 --> 00:14:05,575 question forever. And one thought you might have is, we 223 00:14:05,575 --> 00:14:08,935 can't know for sure, right? So philosophers call this 224 00:14:08,995 --> 00:14:13,735 skepticism, right? The idea that maybe we don't know what we 225 00:14:13,735 --> 00:14:17,395 think we know, and maybe that applies to absolutely 226 00:14:17,395 --> 00:14:22,435 everything, including, like, are we awake or are we dreaming? And 227 00:14:22,795 --> 00:14:28,060 I think it's okay to be unsure. And to recognize that there's 228 00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:31,240 kind of limits to what we might know, and to realize that we 229 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,860 might be confused, right? But we might think, well, I'm happy 230 00:14:35,860 --> 00:14:38,860 with the way things are, or at the end of the day, it doesn't 231 00:14:38,860 --> 00:14:42,280 matter. It's good to remind myself that I can question 232 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,160 absolutely anything, but that doesn't mean I should question 233 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,300 everything all the time. 234 00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:49,585 Mugumo: My name is Mugumo. I'm 11 years old, and I live in 235 00:14:49,585 --> 00:14:54,205 Nairobi. Why is it that sometimes many people in a group 236 00:14:54,265 --> 00:14:57,865 are punished for something that only one person did like in 237 00:14:57,865 --> 00:14:58,465 class? 238 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,060 Scott Hershovitz: I love this question. This is another 239 00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:04,600 philosophy question about law, because the law often hands out 240 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,740 punishments. And I think there's two ways of answering this 241 00:15:08,740 --> 00:15:12,280 question. One might be to say, what's the grownup who punishes 242 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,940 the class when one or two kids has done something bad? What are 243 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:20,500 they thinking? Well, sometimes they're thinking that I can use 244 00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:24,325 the other kids in the class to put pressure on the kids that 245 00:15:24,325 --> 00:15:28,885 were behaving badly to start acting well, right? So they 246 00:15:28,885 --> 00:15:32,005 think that the kids who are behaving badly may care more 247 00:15:32,005 --> 00:15:34,585 about what their friends think than about what the teacher 248 00:15:34,585 --> 00:15:37,945 thinks, and so if the friends get upset with them because they 249 00:15:37,945 --> 00:15:41,545 got punished, then maybe they'll behave better. So philosophers 250 00:15:41,545 --> 00:15:43,885 talk about collective punishment, and this is a kind 251 00:15:43,885 --> 00:15:47,650 of collective punishment, and I think that's one reason that 252 00:15:47,710 --> 00:15:51,670 people sometimes use collective punishments. A different kind of 253 00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:56,950 question we can ask about it is: is it fair to do collective 254 00:15:56,950 --> 00:16:02,470 punishment? And I don't think it is. I think that when a teacher 255 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:07,030 says I'm going to make everyone in the class unhappy because a 256 00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:10,315 couple people did something bad and that I'm going to try and 257 00:16:11,095 --> 00:16:14,755 use that peer pressure to get better behavior from the kids 258 00:16:14,755 --> 00:16:17,755 who are behaving bad, she's kind of using the other kids, the 259 00:16:17,755 --> 00:16:21,535 ones that were acting well, as a tool, right to accomplish 260 00:16:21,535 --> 00:16:25,255 something and not treating them as individuals, not treating 261 00:16:25,255 --> 00:16:29,335 them with respect. So I think collective punishment is the 262 00:16:29,395 --> 00:16:31,660 kind of thing that can work, but I don't think it's a very nice 263 00:16:31,660 --> 00:16:34,840 thing to do. I think we should be treated based on the way 264 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,240 we've acted and not based on the way other people behave. 265 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:41,800 Oskar: Hi, my name is Oskar. I'm eight years old. I'm from 266 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,060 Iceland. How do we learn from our mistakes? 267 00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:49,720 Scott Hershovitz: So I have this conversation with my students a 268 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,020 lot, not necessarily with like big important mistakes, like 269 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,220 being mean to someone or hurting someone, but even just when they 270 00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:01,405 make mistakes on a test. Sometimes they just want to look 271 00:17:01,405 --> 00:17:05,005 at the answer, the right answer, and then they think they're 272 00:17:05,005 --> 00:17:08,065 done. And I think, no, that's just the start of learning from 273 00:17:08,065 --> 00:17:11,365 your mistakes, because what you need to do is then think back to 274 00:17:11,365 --> 00:17:15,505 when you took that test and ask yourself, how could I have done 275 00:17:15,505 --> 00:17:19,465 things differently so I would get to the right answer? And so 276 00:17:19,465 --> 00:17:22,885 I often think that that's true even when we make a mistake, 277 00:17:22,885 --> 00:17:26,890 like saying something mean to a friend, right? So what we need 278 00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:30,370 to do is kind of a little bit of mental time travel. We need to 279 00:17:30,550 --> 00:17:34,990 think back to what we were feeling in that moment and ask 280 00:17:34,990 --> 00:17:39,310 ourselves why we said what we said, or did what we did, and if 281 00:17:39,310 --> 00:17:43,750 there was a better way to handle those feelings and maybe try and 282 00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:46,030 make a plan for next time something like that happens. I 283 00:17:46,030 --> 00:17:49,135 think that's a way to learn from your mistakes, is to kind of 284 00:17:49,315 --> 00:17:52,135 plan out what you'll do differently if the same kind of 285 00:17:52,135 --> 00:17:53,395 situation arises. 286 00:17:53,815 --> 00:17:56,575 Jane: After the break, we'll ponder more questions with Scott 287 00:17:56,575 --> 00:18:02,575 Hershovitz, like is graffiti art and how can narwhals be real? 288 00:18:02,875 --> 00:18:03,715 Stay with us. 289 00:18:03,715 --> 00:18:09,595 This is But Why. I'm Jane Lindholm. And today, we're 290 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,280 talking with philosophy professor Scott Hershovitz, 291 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,460 who's here to help us tackle some of the biggest, hardest 292 00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:19,480 questions about our lives and our world. Here's one from West 293 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:20,320 in Baltimore. 294 00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:26,260 West: I see art on the bridges when I'm going to school, and 295 00:18:26,620 --> 00:18:30,460 why, and it's called graffiti. Why do people do it? 296 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,985 Jane: And West's question to me, is interesting on the face of 297 00:18:33,985 --> 00:18:37,345 it, but also is interesting in the idea of, what do we call 298 00:18:37,405 --> 00:18:42,625 art, and what do we call vandalism, or painting something 299 00:18:42,625 --> 00:18:45,325 on other people's property when they shouldn't, what's art and 300 00:18:45,325 --> 00:18:46,285 what's not art? 301 00:18:46,525 --> 00:18:48,805 Scott Hershovitz: Yeah, I wish we, I wish we could ask a follow 302 00:18:48,805 --> 00:18:53,065 up question, because why do people do it? Could mean lots of 303 00:18:53,065 --> 00:18:56,305 things, right? So it could involve a kind of criticism, 304 00:18:56,350 --> 00:18:59,410 like you've painted on other people's property, and it's not 305 00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:03,970 nice to do that without permission, and whether it's not 306 00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:10,510 nice, I think might depend a little bit on the context. So in 307 00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:15,370 some places, graffiti isn't welcome, but in other cities 308 00:19:15,610 --> 00:19:21,370 around the world, there's a real tradition of street art and 309 00:19:21,415 --> 00:19:25,855 painting, and maybe the folks who own buildings in those 310 00:19:25,855 --> 00:19:30,775 places are more open minded and welcoming of that kind of 311 00:19:31,195 --> 00:19:31,915 expression. 312 00:19:31,915 --> 00:19:37,135 But there's a deeper question here, which is, why do we make 313 00:19:37,135 --> 00:19:43,315 art? Why do we want to paint on the side of that bridge or on 314 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,780 that wall. And this is something that human beings have been 315 00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:49,480 doing as far back as we know. They're human beings, some of 316 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,500 the earliest evidence we have for the existence of human 317 00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:58,060 beings, is art that they painted on the wall of caves. And I 318 00:19:58,060 --> 00:20:03,040 think there's a few answers. One is we make art to communicate 319 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,400 with each other. We want to express things about ourselves 320 00:20:06,625 --> 00:20:09,505 and the way we see the world. And when I see graffiti, 321 00:20:09,505 --> 00:20:14,185 sometimes I think there it's really beautiful or has really 322 00:20:14,185 --> 00:20:18,865 interesting ideas that are captured in the pictures that 323 00:20:18,865 --> 00:20:24,265 people are making. Sometimes I just think it's fun, right? To 324 00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:27,505 make something beautiful. One thing I think kids know that 325 00:20:27,505 --> 00:20:31,870 adults forget, is that something's being fun is a 326 00:20:31,870 --> 00:20:35,050 complete reason to do it, and we don't. It doesn't need to have 327 00:20:35,050 --> 00:20:40,390 some purpose beyond itself. And painting, whether it's graffiti 328 00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:44,350 or on a canvas is one of those activities like dancing. It can 329 00:20:44,350 --> 00:20:47,830 just be fun, and we don't need to ask why do it and have an 330 00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,990 answer in mind beyond we like doing it. 331 00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:51,955 Jane: Well, in that case, I'm going to give you maybe the 332 00:20:51,955 --> 00:20:54,055 toughest question of the day. 333 00:20:54,415 --> 00:20:59,215 Bella: My name is Bella. I am eight years old. I live in 334 00:20:59,215 --> 00:21:04,195 Burlington, Vermont. Why do people like the meme six seven 335 00:21:04,195 --> 00:21:05,155 so much? 336 00:21:05,695 --> 00:21:09,295 Kid voice: Why does six seven exist? Why does the six seven 337 00:21:09,295 --> 00:21:10,195 kid exist? 338 00:21:10,195 --> 00:21:15,280 Jane: Why does six seven exist, and why does the six seven kid 339 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,000 exist? 340 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,700 Scott Hershovitz: Oh, wow, I might be too old to answer this 341 00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:22,060 question. Maybe this is a question that belongs to kids, 342 00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:27,100 but if I was going to try and answer the question, I think 343 00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:30,100 it's just such a wonderful example of how playful human 344 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:35,560 beings can be, to take almost anything and to make a joke out 345 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:41,365 of it, or to make a game out of it. And I can't say at my age, 346 00:21:41,365 --> 00:21:46,045 I'm 49 years old, that I fully understand the six seven game. 347 00:21:46,045 --> 00:21:49,045 I've just noticed if I find a way to say "six seven" in my 348 00:21:49,045 --> 00:21:54,085 classroom, that my students are amused. But I think of it as 349 00:21:54,085 --> 00:21:57,265 just a way to play with with numbers and with language and to 350 00:21:57,265 --> 00:21:58,225 have fun with each other. 351 00:21:58,405 --> 00:22:04,150 Jane: I also think it's an example of how forever before 352 00:22:04,150 --> 00:22:08,650 and probably forever into the future, kids will try to find a 353 00:22:08,650 --> 00:22:13,450 way to confuse adults into being frustrated about what they don't 354 00:22:13,450 --> 00:22:17,950 know, because so many times adults seem to act like we know 355 00:22:17,950 --> 00:22:21,790 more than kids. And here's this thing that kids are like, you 356 00:22:21,790 --> 00:22:24,715 know, all in the know about and all these adults are like, what 357 00:22:24,715 --> 00:22:28,615 does it mean? And so it for me, reminds me too, yes, that 358 00:22:28,615 --> 00:22:33,295 playfulness, but also that kids have some power in the world to 359 00:22:33,355 --> 00:22:37,075 figure things out for themselves, that adults don't 360 00:22:37,075 --> 00:22:38,455 have to understand. 361 00:22:38,695 --> 00:22:40,495 Scott Hershovitz: That's definitely true. And my younger 362 00:22:40,495 --> 00:22:44,995 son Hank likes to make clear how little I understand about the 363 00:22:44,995 --> 00:22:50,200 way kids talk these days, so we'll roll his eyes if I try and 364 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,480 use the words I hear on TikTok. 365 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:57,940 Almira: My name is Almira. I'm five. I live in Leavenworth, 366 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,360 Washington. How can narwhals be real? 367 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,740 Jane: if you've never seen a narwhal, it's a kind of a whale 368 00:23:05,980 --> 00:23:10,285 that lives in very, very cold ocean waters, and it has a long 369 00:23:10,285 --> 00:23:14,185 tusk sticking straight out of its head. They're amazing 370 00:23:14,185 --> 00:23:17,545 looking animals, and someday I really want to see a narwhal in 371 00:23:17,545 --> 00:23:19,825 person. But how can those animals be real? 372 00:23:19,945 --> 00:23:22,105 Scott Hershovitz: It's such a good question, because it looks 373 00:23:22,105 --> 00:23:25,945 like somebody just sort of mashed up a whale and a unicorn, 374 00:23:26,185 --> 00:23:29,845 and that it had to have been imagined into existence. But 375 00:23:29,845 --> 00:23:33,790 actually it's real, and so it's a reminder that the actual world 376 00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:37,810 is as cool as any world we can imagine. I have children who 377 00:23:37,810 --> 00:23:41,290 liked narwhals, and so I did a little bit of research on that 378 00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:45,670 tusk, and it turns out it's really useful to them, right? So 379 00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:50,290 the tusk, because it extends far out from their heads, it's 380 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:53,890 really sensitive to vibrations, and so it helps them pick up 381 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:57,475 sounds, and it helps them pick up other things that are moving 382 00:23:57,475 --> 00:24:01,495 in the water, and it can sense the temperature of the water 383 00:24:01,495 --> 00:24:05,815 around them. So that tusk is giving the narwhal a lot of 384 00:24:06,055 --> 00:24:11,395 information for helping it navigate and and so that's the 385 00:24:11,395 --> 00:24:14,395 answer of how it evolved. Because, of course, the animals 386 00:24:14,395 --> 00:24:19,000 that exist are produced by evolution, and the traits they 387 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,860 have tend to be the traits that that make them successful right 388 00:24:23,860 --> 00:24:26,980 at the at being a narwhal, or make them successful at being a 389 00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:31,300 dog, or make them successful at being a person. So narwhals 390 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:33,700 exist because that tusk is super helpful. 391 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,900 Jane: Well, Scarlett kind of we can build on that question with 392 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:39,040 Scarlett's question: 393 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,560 Scarlett: Why can't everything be the same, for example, like, 394 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,780 why isn't a banana on an orange the same thing, a crocodile or a 395 00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:51,180 bird, or red and yellow? 396 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,000 Scott Hershovitz: Yeah, so this is such a fun question too, 397 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,120 because there was a philosopher who lived a long time ago in 398 00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:02,460 ancient Greece named Parmenides, and Parmenides thought that all 399 00:25:02,460 --> 00:25:06,300 differences were illusion, that there was only one thing in the 400 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:10,560 world. And anytime you were drawing a distinction, whether 401 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,100 it was between a banana or an orange, or between you and a 402 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:17,565 banana, right? You were laboring under illusion, because there 403 00:25:17,565 --> 00:25:22,545 was just one thing. And he and some of his followers took this 404 00:25:22,545 --> 00:25:25,485 idea very seriously, and they were not always careful for 405 00:25:25,485 --> 00:25:28,425 their physical safety, because they believed in themselves 406 00:25:28,425 --> 00:25:31,845 being a kind of illusion. And there was another philosopher in 407 00:25:31,845 --> 00:25:35,385 ancient Greece named Heraclitus who held the exact opposite 408 00:25:35,385 --> 00:25:40,230 view. He thought that everything is constantly changing, so that 409 00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:44,130 banana right now is different than the way that banana will be 410 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:46,830 in a few minutes, which is different than the way it was 411 00:25:46,830 --> 00:25:49,710 last week. And so he thought, you can never pick up the same 412 00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:53,310 banana twice, right? As he put it, he said, you can never step 413 00:25:53,310 --> 00:25:57,150 in the same river twice, because the river is always changing. 414 00:25:57,570 --> 00:26:01,635 And I think, and I think most of us think the truth is somewhere 415 00:26:01,635 --> 00:26:06,555 in the middle, right? That the banana can be the same banana, 416 00:26:06,615 --> 00:26:11,355 even though it's changing, even though it's rotting, maybe, and 417 00:26:11,355 --> 00:26:14,715 I can be the same person, even though my hair gets longer or my 418 00:26:14,715 --> 00:26:17,475 fingernails get shorter, or, if you're kid, you might be getting 419 00:26:17,475 --> 00:26:23,055 taller. So I think that things can change but nevertheless be 420 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:28,920 the same thing, right? But part of what that tells us is that 421 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,640 what we mean by same isn't exactly the same in all ways. 422 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,200 What makes me the same person that I was last week, right, is 423 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,140 probably... I have the same memories and the same 424 00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:43,680 personality, even though I don't have the same hair, right? My 425 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,885 hair is a little bit longer. So, so that's one way to think about 426 00:26:48,885 --> 00:26:52,185 this question is, you know, we have different reasons for 427 00:26:52,185 --> 00:26:56,685 thinking about sameness and difference. Another way to think 428 00:26:56,685 --> 00:27:00,825 about the question is just to go back to the narwhal. Banana 429 00:27:00,825 --> 00:27:06,045 trees and orange trees come from different environments, and 430 00:27:06,165 --> 00:27:10,290 their different characteristics probably made them successful 431 00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:14,730 for the environments that they're in. And I'm so glad that 432 00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:18,090 oranges are not bananas, because I love oranges and I don't like 433 00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:18,630 bananas. 434 00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:25,350 Logan: Hi. My name is Logan. I'm six years old, and I live in 435 00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:32,910 Austin, Texas. Why are humans made out of stardust but they're 436 00:27:32,910 --> 00:27:34,110 not fragile? 437 00:27:34,215 --> 00:27:36,495 Scott Hershovitz: Yeah, this is super cool. And so let's just 438 00:27:36,495 --> 00:27:38,775 back up for a second. What do we mean when we say we're made of 439 00:27:38,775 --> 00:27:42,795 stardust? We're made out of atoms, right? And most of the 440 00:27:42,795 --> 00:27:46,935 atoms that exist inside our body say the carbon atoms and the 441 00:27:46,935 --> 00:27:51,915 nitrogen atoms, they were made inside stars. Stars are big 442 00:27:51,915 --> 00:27:54,675 nuclear reactors, and they're squeezing lighter atoms into 443 00:27:54,675 --> 00:27:57,900 heavier atoms, and some of those heavier atoms are what you need 444 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,060 to make people. So the atoms in our body, they were at the 445 00:28:03,060 --> 00:28:07,740 centers of stars once, and that is super, super cool, right? 446 00:28:07,740 --> 00:28:11,940 Now, we know that dust, it's hard to make things out of dust. 447 00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:15,420 It would be really fragile, but what we mean when we say that 448 00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:19,560 we're made of stardust is just that we're made out of the same 449 00:28:19,605 --> 00:28:23,085 kinds of things that dust is made of or made out of atoms. 450 00:28:23,385 --> 00:28:27,285 And atoms can be put together in different ways, and some of the 451 00:28:27,285 --> 00:28:30,825 ways we put them together are super strong, and some of the 452 00:28:30,825 --> 00:28:35,205 ways we put them together are super fragile and breakable. So 453 00:28:35,205 --> 00:28:38,985 when we put them together in glass, they're easy to break, 454 00:28:38,985 --> 00:28:43,050 and when we put them together in steel, they're really hard to 455 00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:46,410 break, and you probably need a chemist to come on and tell you 456 00:28:46,410 --> 00:28:49,470 about exactly how they fit together and which arrangements 457 00:28:49,470 --> 00:28:52,170 will be strong and which arrangements will be weak. But 458 00:28:52,170 --> 00:28:56,550 we have stronger and weaker bits of us, right? So your muscles 459 00:28:56,550 --> 00:29:00,090 might be really strong, but maybe some of your bones are 460 00:29:00,090 --> 00:29:05,790 weaker, or maybe your biceps, you're really strong, but your 461 00:29:05,955 --> 00:29:09,015 your nose is a little bit weaker, and that's going to be 462 00:29:09,015 --> 00:29:11,595 because of the different arrangements of atoms in those 463 00:29:11,595 --> 00:29:12,555 parts of your body. 464 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,520 Dexter: My name is Dexter, and I'm four years old, and I live 465 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,420 in Illinois. Why do hearts break? 466 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:24,600 Scott Hershovitz: Oh, wow. Well, this is kind of bringing us full 467 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,460 circle. Back to the question, why is, why is the world sad 468 00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:34,200 sometimes? And I think I want to answer this question in the same 469 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,725 way, right to say, Well, again, there's always multiple 470 00:29:37,725 --> 00:29:42,045 questions that are, that are... you know, lurking in any good 471 00:29:42,045 --> 00:29:45,045 question. And so why do hearts break? You know, sometimes 472 00:29:45,165 --> 00:29:48,705 physical hearts break because, you know, the valves don't work, 473 00:29:48,705 --> 00:29:52,545 or someone has a heart attack. And so the heart is a kind of 474 00:29:52,545 --> 00:29:56,145 machine that breaks down. But when we talk about our hearts as 475 00:29:56,145 --> 00:29:59,010 people, sometimes we're not talking about the thing that's 476 00:29:59,010 --> 00:30:01,890 beating inside us. Because sometimes we're talking about 477 00:30:02,130 --> 00:30:05,370 the really important part of ourselves that loves others and 478 00:30:05,370 --> 00:30:11,970 wants to be loved. And love is this beautiful, wonderful thing. 479 00:30:12,570 --> 00:30:16,230 When we love somebody, we want to be with them, and we want to 480 00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:19,770 enjoy them, and we want good things to happen to them, and 481 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:23,475 when bad things happen, or when we're separated from them, the 482 00:30:23,475 --> 00:30:27,615 other side of that love is sadness about the loss. 483 00:30:28,020 --> 00:30:31,440 Jane: Scott says it's not just philosophy professors who are 484 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,760 philosophers. We all wonder about these big existential 485 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,200 questions, especially kids. So do you know what that means? It 486 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,760 means you are a philosopher, too. That's it for this episode. 487 00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:47,700 Thanks to Professor Scott Hershovitz for contemplating the 488 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:51,405 big questions with us today. Scott's also written a book 489 00:30:51,405 --> 00:30:55,665 called Nasty, Brutish and Short Adventures in Philosophy with My 490 00:30:55,665 --> 00:30:59,145 Kids. It's a book for adults, and I really loved reading it, 491 00:30:59,145 --> 00:31:03,465 but it's all about how you kids think about these big questions 492 00:31:03,645 --> 00:31:07,125 and can push adults to continue thinking about them as we get 493 00:31:07,125 --> 00:31:10,005 older. We'll include a link to the book in our show notes. 494 00:31:10,005 --> 00:31:13,710 As always, if you have a question about anything, have an 495 00:31:13,710 --> 00:31:16,770 adult record you asking it on a smartphone using an app like 496 00:31:16,770 --> 00:31:21,270 voice memos, then have your adults email the file to 497 00:31:22,110 --> 00:31:25,290 questions@butwhykids.org. Our show is produced by Sarah Baik, 498 00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:28,710 Melody Bodette and me, Jane Lindholm at Vermont Public and 499 00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:32,970 distributed by PRX. Our video producer is Joey Palumbo, and 500 00:31:32,970 --> 00:31:36,030 our theme music is by Luke Reynolds. If you like our show, 501 00:31:36,075 --> 00:31:39,315 please have your adults help you give us a thumbs up or a review 502 00:31:39,315 --> 00:31:43,275 on whatever podcast platform you use to listen to us. It helps 503 00:31:43,275 --> 00:31:47,355 other kids and families find us. We'll be back in two weeks with 504 00:31:47,355 --> 00:31:51,735 an all-new episode. Until then, stay curious!