WEBVTT 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.480 Hey, it's Jack, host of the show. So, 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:03.919 the last two episodes talked about 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:06.000 hacking in the 80s and 90s, which was 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:08.160 primarily phone freaking. In those 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:09.519 episodes, I talked about a digital 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.679 magazine called Frack, which was 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:13.519 incredibly influential to the hacking 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:15.280 scene. It wasn't uncommon to be in a 00:00:15.280 --> 00:00:16.480 chat room and someone come in and ask, 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:18.400 "How do I get started as a hacker?" And 00:00:18.400 --> 00:00:20.640 then someone else simply say, "Go to 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.359 Frack's site, start reading it at issue 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:25.039 one, and by the time you're all caught 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:28.000 up, you'll be a great hacker." 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:29.760 It's probably good to go and listen to 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:31.519 the two episodes before this before 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:33.440 doing this one just to have the context, 00:00:33.440 --> 00:00:34.800 but you don't have to if you'd rather 00:00:34.800 --> 00:00:37.120 not. But the thing is is that in this 00:00:37.120 --> 00:00:39.760 episode I interview two of the Frack 00:00:39.760 --> 00:00:41.920 staff. The magazine just celebrated 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.160 their 40th anniversary. And I'm pretty 00:00:44.160 --> 00:00:46.800 sure if you run a hacker magazine for 40 00:00:46.800 --> 00:00:48.480 years, there's got to be some 00:00:48.480 --> 00:00:54.879 interesting stories in there somewhere. 00:00:54.879 --> 00:00:56.800 These are true stories from the dark 00:00:56.800 --> 00:01:01.680 side of the internet. 00:01:01.680 --> 00:01:04.400 I'm Jack Reider. 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:20.960 This is Darknet Diaries. 00:01:20.960 --> 00:01:23.280 Okay. First, let's start out with some 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:24.240 introductions. 00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:26.479 >> Hi, my name is Skyper. I used to be the 00:01:26.479 --> 00:01:29.520 editor um of the Frack magazine in the 00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:32.560 year 2000 to 2005 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:35.520 and um I've joined the Frack staff 00:01:35.520 --> 00:01:37.200 recently again as an adviser. 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.520 >> Hey, I'm TMZ. I'm one of the current 00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:42.079 staff and editors of Frack magazine. 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:45.840 >> In your words, can you tell us what is 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.840 Frack Magazine? So frack stands for 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:51.840 freaking and hacking and it's a 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:54.079 combination of these two words and it 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:55.680 used to be the manipulation of the phone 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.799 lines. Effectively the main goal was to 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.439 get you free phone calls that are very 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:02.399 hard to trace. 00:02:02.399 --> 00:02:05.280 >> Frack magazine. This is all sorts of 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.840 things hacking related to be honest. Uh 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:10.000 I think there is the famous article on 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.680 how to make a bomb as well from the 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:13.680 past. Yeah, I mean that was I think I I 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.319 I saw that even in uh issue one. There 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.360 was a balloon that had acetylene in it 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:21.920 that you put like snap caps or pop caps 00:02:21.920 --> 00:02:24.000 on it and throw some rocks together and 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.440 you throw the balloon off like a roof 00:02:25.440 --> 00:02:27.440 and when it hits the ground the snap 00:02:27.440 --> 00:02:30.400 pops the pops the little popper snap and 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.400 then it creates a little explosion. I 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.840 think that was issue issue one. And so, 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.640 um, it's it's interesting how anarchy 00:02:38.640 --> 00:02:41.440 kind of shows up in in frack like like 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:43.200 bombs. What is this doing in a in a 00:02:43.200 --> 00:02:44.800 hacker magazine? 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:47.519 >> I think we have to put this into um a 00:02:47.519 --> 00:02:50.800 different context of of where we were um 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.200 40 years ago. Terrorism didn't really 00:02:53.200 --> 00:02:55.599 happen, at least not in in most 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.879 countries. And so building bombs was not 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:01.360 seen as necessarily something evil or 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:03.519 criminal, but was, you know, just young 00:03:03.519 --> 00:03:06.000 kids exploring things. What can they do? 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.640 They they didn't mean to do any harm 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:14.400 with them. They were just experimenting. 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.480 In my opinion, frack seems to capture 00:03:16.480 --> 00:03:18.879 some kind of counterculture. It's notes 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:20.720 from the underground type stuff because 00:03:20.720 --> 00:03:23.280 back in the '90s, cyber security wasn't 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:25.519 quite a mainstream profession yet. Like 00:03:25.519 --> 00:03:27.680 schools didn't teach you how to secure 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:29.920 networks or how to hack. But nowadays, 00:03:29.920 --> 00:03:32.159 almost every major university has a 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:34.799 major in cyber security. So back in the 00:03:34.799 --> 00:03:36.400 90s, there was just this underground 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:38.560 group of people breaking computers 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:40.480 basically and talking about it in chat 00:03:40.480 --> 00:03:42.799 rooms and on forums. You had freakers, 00:03:42.799 --> 00:03:45.360 hackers, rippers, crackers, cedars, 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:47.360 which welcomed in artists and musicians 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:48.959 who were making things on their 00:03:48.959 --> 00:03:51.040 computers. And this was collectively 00:03:51.040 --> 00:03:54.159 known as the scene back then. And I 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.239 think it was this underground scene that 00:03:56.239 --> 00:03:58.319 Frack was born out of and has its roots 00:03:58.319 --> 00:03:58.799 in. 00:03:58.799 --> 00:04:01.439 >> So the scene was made by like largely 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:03.519 people trying things out with their new 00:04:03.519 --> 00:04:05.280 hardware that they found or like trying 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.200 to like make something do something that 00:04:07.200 --> 00:04:09.680 was not supposed to be uh doing or that 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:12.239 was not engineered to do. So that's what 00:04:12.239 --> 00:04:14.400 the original hacker was all about. 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.040 >> I think if you summarize it then frack 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.160 contains condensed hardcore technical 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.800 articles without any bullshit. the stuff 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:24.400 works and it's practical. 00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:26.240 >> I'm fascinated by these two cultures, 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.639 the cyber security professional and the 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:31.360 scene hacker. One does it for money and 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:33.600 it's their career and one does it for 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.320 fun. It's their hobby, but they are both 00:04:36.320 --> 00:04:38.160 passionate about it. One tries to do it 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:40.160 in the light, one wants to do it in the 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.639 shadows, but they both like sharing what 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:44.960 they know. What's the difference? 00:04:44.960 --> 00:04:48.080 Honestly, attitude, 00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:50.080 style. 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:52.240 But as computers grew more mainstream, 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.560 becoming more common in every house, 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.759 more interest grew in hacking. I mean, 00:04:57.759 --> 00:04:59.440 I'm sure you've gotten some kind of new 00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:01.040 electronic at some point in your life, 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:02.560 and you sat down and you said to 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.080 yourself, "What are all the cool things 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:06.320 that this thing can do?" So, imagine 00:05:06.320 --> 00:05:08.560 getting a computer and learning that it 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.960 can print stuff and play games and make 00:05:10.960 --> 00:05:14.000 sounds, but then also hearing about some 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.479 of the secret stuff it can do, like hack 00:05:16.479 --> 00:05:18.960 other people's computers. So more people 00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:20.639 got fascinated with hacking and were 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:22.320 contributing to things like frack 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:23.919 submitting articles on how to do cool 00:05:23.919 --> 00:05:26.320 secret stuff on your computer. But also 00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:28.400 along with the rise of computers, the 00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:31.440 cyber security profession became popular 00:05:31.440 --> 00:05:33.280 which sort of brought in a whole new 00:05:33.280 --> 00:05:35.680 culture of hackers. These weren't the 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:38.400 rollerblading cargo pantswearing mohawk 00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:41.199 kids. The cyber security professional 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.680 wears a collared shirt and sometimes a 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.960 tie. You can see the stark contrast of 00:05:46.960 --> 00:05:48.880 these two cultures. When you go to 00:05:48.880 --> 00:05:52.080 conferences like Black Hat and Defcon. 00:05:52.080 --> 00:05:54.240 At Black Hat, you see people wearing 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.120 suits and ties. They say they're geeks 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.360 and nerds, but they don't look it. At 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:00.960 Defcon, there's a lot of people wearing 00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:03.600 cargo shorts, black shirts, hoodies, 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.160 having mohawks. At Black Hat, I feel 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.240 like those people have to be there for 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:11.440 work. But at Defcon, I feel like those 00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:14.400 people want to be there for the fun. 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:16.960 And because I grew up in the scene, my 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:19.120 heart is still there. We were the kids 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:20.960 who tried stuff with no manual or 00:06:20.960 --> 00:06:23.039 tutorial. We built things that weren't 00:06:23.039 --> 00:06:25.600 possible. We did it without permission 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.160 or rules. We pushed the boundaries and 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:29.840 explored a new frontier, 00:06:29.840 --> 00:06:31.440 >> which also like a lot of those things, 00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:33.520 they actually pave the ground for like a 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:35.600 lot of the the security industry exists 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:37.360 now. So a lot of people's job, they 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:38.800 exist because of some of the articles 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:40.400 that were written there, which is very 00:06:40.400 --> 00:06:42.240 interesting. At this point, we're 40 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:43.759 years into Frack. And some of the 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.319 articles have historical significance. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.120 >> Historical significance has the article 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.400 of the E911 documentation that was 00:06:52.400 --> 00:06:55.680 released um in 1989, I believe. I think 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:59.440 it was issue 24. And um it was a 00:06:59.440 --> 00:07:01.520 documentation that detailed how the 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:04.319 emergency um 911 system works in 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:07.840 America. And it was the first time that 00:07:07.840 --> 00:07:09.759 um FRA gone into some some legal 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:12.319 problems with the with the authorities. 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:14.560 Uh I think that has some significance um 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.319 because it it happened right after 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.560 operation sundevil uh with the secret 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:21.280 service hunting hackers and it also 00:07:21.280 --> 00:07:22.960 sparked the creation of the electronic 00:07:22.960 --> 00:07:26.639 front because the the the frack person 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:28.319 who released that article was so 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:30.000 unfairly treated by the government and 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.000 by the corporates. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.039 Yeah, I think that article solidified 00:07:35.039 --> 00:07:37.840 Frack as the coolest hacker magazine 00:07:37.840 --> 00:07:42.000 ever because the the the founder Night 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.960 Lightning or one of the early early 00:07:44.960 --> 00:07:48.080 founders um got arrested for publishing 00:07:48.080 --> 00:07:50.720 that article and then fought the law and 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.120 won. And so it's like I got arrested for 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:55.199 hacking and I and I beat it and I got 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.160 off scot-free. And that that was just 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.039 such a such a middle finger to the to 00:08:01.039 --> 00:08:03.120 the establishment of like no we're we're 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.280 hackers and we can beat you and and we 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:07.360 did beat you in your core in your arena 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.280 in your court of law. We still won and 00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:11.520 we didn't do anything wrong. Screw off 00:08:11.520 --> 00:08:13.759 and leave us alone. And that that must 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.240 have been just like the most amazing 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.680 epic moment for for for the time to to 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.000 beat beat the law. and and I know there 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:23.599 was some other Frack contributors who 00:08:23.599 --> 00:08:26.080 didn't weren't so successful um with 00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:28.240 that E911 article. They plead guilty 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.319 before they could fight it. But the fact 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:33.360 that that happened and it and one of the 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:35.599 only times anyone ever has been arrested 00:08:35.599 --> 00:08:38.399 for a CFAA violation and got off uh it's 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:40.080 only like I can count on my one hand I 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.159 think how many times that's happened and 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.399 frack was was one of them. So yeah, that 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.720 was definitely quite an article. 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.600 Yeah, Night Lightning um faces 60 years 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.399 in prison and $122,000 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:53.360 in fine. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:54.880 >> That's a lot more money nowadays. I 00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:56.399 think 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:58.240 >> another article which made big waves was 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.640 titled Smashing the Stack for Fun and 00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:01.200 Profit. 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.440 >> So, Smash the Stack Fun and Profit issue 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.760 49 um was the first article that told to 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:10.320 the wider audience how buffer overflows 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:11.839 work. 00:09:11.839 --> 00:09:14.880 So in the olden days, buffer overflows 00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:18.240 were used to trigger computer a target 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:20.720 to execute a program that is not 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.640 intended to execute to break into 00:09:22.640 --> 00:09:25.200 computer systems so to say. And this 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:27.839 article detailed it um how to do it 00:09:27.839 --> 00:09:30.000 yourself, how you can do it. It was not 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.399 the first time it was used on the 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.720 internet. The first time was probably by 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.839 Robert T. Morris um who wrote the the 00:09:37.839 --> 00:09:39.680 very first internet worm. And there were 00:09:39.680 --> 00:09:43.519 other articles around how to manipulate 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.000 the the stack, but it was never that 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.399 detailed in that clarity and reaching 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:50.640 such a wide audience. When this article 00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:52.560 came out, buffer overflows became the 00:09:52.560 --> 00:09:54.800 new favorite way hackers would break a 00:09:54.800 --> 00:09:56.959 system and it was a favorite because of 00:09:56.959 --> 00:09:59.600 how successful it was to do. Programs 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:01.600 just weren't designed to stop this from 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.920 happening and so many things were 00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:05.839 vulnerable. I think the race just 00:10:05.839 --> 00:10:08.000 started with source code reviews and 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:09.760 finding vulnerabilities, disclosing 00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.480 them, um, irresponsibly disclosing them 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:14.560 in the olden days and then slowly 00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:16.399 getting an idea of what responsible 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:18.399 disclosure is, that not every corporate 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:20.240 is your enemy and trying to work 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:21.680 together with them, trying to find 00:10:21.680 --> 00:10:23.680 common ground, how we can make the 00:10:23.680 --> 00:10:26.480 internet a better place for everybody. 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.079 Yeah, this is one of those cases that 00:10:28.079 --> 00:10:30.240 this was like a very elite and 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.399 underground technique known probably 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.760 just by governments or things like this 00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:38.640 uh that when it hit the the when the 00:10:38.640 --> 00:10:41.440 article was written it just like it 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.240 clicked in so many people's minds. So 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.399 there was like this myriad of software 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.560 that's like abundantly available and 00:10:48.560 --> 00:10:50.959 like most likely vulnerable. They can 00:10:50.959 --> 00:10:52.800 just fool around with it like 00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:55.920 everywhere. So yeah. So just to put this 00:10:55.920 --> 00:10:57.920 into perspective, when I started out 00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:00.880 with computer security and hacking, uh 00:11:00.880 --> 00:11:02.640 when I wanted to learn how to break a 00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:04.959 computer system, I've been told what you 00:11:04.959 --> 00:11:07.120 have to do is you have to go to the 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.760 library. You have to find the book about 00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:12.399 Robert T. Morris. You have to find and 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.720 read the articles, the news articles to 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:16.640 piece together information how he did 00:11:16.640 --> 00:11:19.279 it. And then when Frack came out with 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.360 Smashing Stack and Fun and Profit, it 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:23.760 was all clear immediately. Back then, 00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:26.480 hackers weren't very respected. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:28.160 Companies would try to ignore the 00:11:28.160 --> 00:11:29.680 vulnerabilities that they were told 00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:32.000 about, almost with the audacity of being 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.320 upset that somebody would buy their 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.720 software and then try to break it as if 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.240 hackers were the problems, like they 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.160 were just some punk kids trying to jab 00:11:40.160 --> 00:11:42.560 their fingers in somebody's eye. I think 00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:45.680 that has flipped and I always like to 00:11:45.680 --> 00:11:47.360 compare it against the the early 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:49.600 companies who who did safety assessment 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:53.040 for for cars. Um the the car industry 00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:55.440 tried to tried to sue them and outlaw 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:56.720 them and says what are you doing? You 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.040 can't show the people how how dangerous 00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:01.600 is to drive without seat belt. Um but 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:04.560 they did and now everybody has learned 00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:06.160 that it is right to have a seat belt. 00:12:06.160 --> 00:12:08.800 It's good to have a seat belt and the 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:10.880 same thing happened with their with with 00:12:10.880 --> 00:12:13.440 this article and then with the exploit 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.200 development. In the beginning they were 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:16.880 hesitant. They were blaming the hackers 00:12:16.880 --> 00:12:19.360 for releasing such destructive 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.600 technology. But if the hackers hadn't 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:23.360 released it, then them other governments 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.040 surely would have exploited these holes 00:12:25.040 --> 00:12:25.760 anyway. 00:12:25.760 --> 00:12:27.680 >> True. Now they don't they don't do this 00:12:27.680 --> 00:12:29.440 only for the fun. They do this mainly 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.480 for the profit. And it 100% became a 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:34.639 business uh and a career. People are 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.040 hired now to hack companies to you know 00:12:37.040 --> 00:12:40.000 assess their security. Like uh you see 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:41.519 this every day. There's a lot of 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:42.880 episodes that you covered already that 00:12:42.880 --> 00:12:44.560 about like this like you know companies 00:12:44.560 --> 00:12:46.320 that they hire people to do like 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:48.320 penetration testing and their physical 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.639 security and all those things. This was 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.480 unthinkable back then. I think 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:54.160 >> there are so many good articles on 00:12:54.160 --> 00:12:54.639 frack. 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.519 >> I think the um you know the end map one 00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.040 the port scanning the art of port 00:12:59.040 --> 00:13:03.440 scanning from issue 51 by fodor uh which 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:05.519 followed the release of the uh end map 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:05.920 tool. 00:13:05.920 --> 00:13:08.160 >> N MAPAP was the the grandfather of all 00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:09.279 port scanners out there. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.680 >> Oh wow. Yeah. N MAPAP is the de facto 00:13:11.680 --> 00:13:13.760 tool almost the standard for how we do 00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:16.320 port scanning today. It's a super simple 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.320 command line tool and the person who 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.160 made end mapap published how to 00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:23.200 effectively port scan using the tool on 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.240 frack and that taught millions of people 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.720 how to port scan even today end mapap is 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:30.880 still highly used by just about everyone 00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:33.200 in cyber security and there's another 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.200 article in frack which goes into detail 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.200 of how to do GPS jamming 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.120 >> I like that this article is in there 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:42.399 because it shows that GPS jamming is not 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.240 really cyber security But it is GPS in 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.959 itself is a technology that everybody 00:13:48.959 --> 00:13:52.320 uses and that nobody ever really thought 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:54.480 about how vulnerable it is. And because 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.040 it is already a weak a very weak signal 00:13:57.040 --> 00:13:59.360 coming from the satellites. 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.079 Of course you can jam it. But it was not 00:14:02.079 --> 00:14:03.920 apparent to everybody until we released 00:14:03.920 --> 00:14:06.320 the article and then you could buy 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:07.600 jammers, you know, two years later you 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.519 could jammers all over the place from 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.160 China and whatnot for very low money. 00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:14.160 But it was was Frank first who released 00:14:14.160 --> 00:14:15.839 that article and got this idea out there 00:14:15.839 --> 00:14:17.760 that hey GPS is actually very easy to 00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:19.839 jam. No one ever thought about that. 00:14:19.839 --> 00:14:21.600 >> H that's a good point. I don't always 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.000 know where the line is on whether 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.000 something is a cyber security problem or 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.320 not. I published an episode recently 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.320 about a credit card skimmer and a lot of 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.959 you complained and said that episode had 00:14:32.959 --> 00:14:35.279 nothing to do with cyber security and it 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.360 made me wonder okay well if it's not a 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:38.800 cyber security problem whose problem is 00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:40.720 it? I mean, if you've got articles on 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.639 Frack Hacker magazine that shows you how 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:44.720 to exploit a technology and compromise 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:46.959 the integrity of it, then maybe that is 00:14:46.959 --> 00:14:49.040 a cyber security problem. And of course 00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:51.040 we had the hackers manifesto article as 00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:54.320 far from from 1986 that was like a 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.160 >> for me this is the most significant 00:14:56.160 --> 00:14:59.360 article in in all of just because it it 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.480 sets out the the baseline and the 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.199 conduct how hackers should behave and 00:15:05.199 --> 00:15:07.360 what hackers 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.519 >> should do and should not do and how we 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:10.320 think. 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:11.680 >> Oh yeah, I told you about the hacker 00:15:11.680 --> 00:15:13.199 manifesto in one of the previous 00:15:13.199 --> 00:15:15.199 episodes. One of the Legion of Doom 00:15:15.199 --> 00:15:17.279 members wrote it and published it first 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.040 on Frack. And I'll give you a short 00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:21.199 excerpt from it. I'm reading from Frack 00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:23.839 here. This is our world now. The world 00:15:23.839 --> 00:15:25.839 of the Electron and the Switch, the 00:15:25.839 --> 00:15:28.240 beauty of the Baud. We explore and you 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.000 call us criminals. We seek after 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.000 knowledge and you call us criminals. We 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:33.839 exist without skin color, without 00:15:33.839 --> 00:15:35.920 nationality, without religious bias and 00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:38.560 you call us criminals. You build atomic 00:15:38.560 --> 00:15:40.880 bombs. You wage wars. You murder. You 00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:43.120 cheat and lie to us and try to make us 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.920 believe it's for our own good. Yet we're 00:15:45.920 --> 00:15:48.800 the criminals. Yes, I am a criminal. My 00:15:48.800 --> 00:15:51.040 crime is out of curiosity. My crime is 00:15:51.040 --> 00:15:53.199 that of judging people by what they say 00:15:53.199 --> 00:15:55.680 and think, not what they look like. I am 00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:58.480 a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:00.880 may stop this individual, but you cannot 00:16:00.880 --> 00:16:04.240 stop us all. After all, we're all alike. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.160 >> Yeah, these things are are still valid 00:16:06.160 --> 00:16:07.839 today. Maybe perhaps even more valid 00:16:07.839 --> 00:16:10.720 today than they were back then. that we 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.279 all equal, that we don't care about skin 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.079 color, religion, our nationality. 00:16:16.079 --> 00:16:18.560 And you know, a lot of a lot of 00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:21.279 criminals forget this. And that's why 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:22.480 they are criminals. They are not 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:24.800 hackers. If you hack for a nation, 00:16:24.800 --> 00:16:26.639 you're not a hacker. You're actually 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.120 more concerned about your nationality 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.360 than about the hacker manifesto where we 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:32.720 don't care about that. We only care 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.800 about skills. >> Correct. 00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:37.040 >> Yeah. I wrote a little bit about it um 00:16:37.040 --> 00:16:39.199 in the last Frack, Frack 72. We're going 00:16:39.199 --> 00:16:40.720 to take a quick ad break here, but stay 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.160 with us because when we get back, we're 00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:43.920 going to get into my favorite frack 00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:46.800 stories. 00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:48.320 The first issue of Frack was published 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.000 in 1985 before websites were popular. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.920 So, it was just hosted on a BBS and you 00:16:53.920 --> 00:16:56.079 had to like use your home phone and dial 00:16:56.079 --> 00:16:58.160 into it and read it that way. And they 00:16:58.160 --> 00:16:59.600 wanted the articles to spread. So, they 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:00.959 encouraged people to mirror it on other 00:17:00.959 --> 00:17:03.199 people's BBS's and other towns. But 00:17:03.199 --> 00:17:04.720 eventually, when websites became 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.079 popular, frack moved tofrack.com. 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.559 and that became its new home. But it 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:11.679 didn't stay that way. 00:17:11.679 --> 00:17:14.720 >> I think frack.com got hacked at least 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.720 once. Uh the web server was often down, 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:19.919 not reachable. 00:17:19.919 --> 00:17:23.120 >> Somewhere around 1998, frack.com went 00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.520 offline. It stopped publishing articles 00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:27.839 for 2 years and was down most of the 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.080 time. I should also mention that Frack 00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:31.919 changed owners quite a bit. The original 00:17:31.919 --> 00:17:33.520 founders went off and did something 00:17:33.520 --> 00:17:35.679 else. New people came in and they were 00:17:35.679 --> 00:17:37.679 doing stuff, but it's a free magazine 00:17:37.679 --> 00:17:39.520 and they never tried to make money. So, 00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:42.080 it relied on volunteers to keep it going 00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:43.760 and they could only spend so many years 00:17:43.760 --> 00:17:46.160 of their life before going off and doing 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.919 something else. By 2000, the site looked 00:17:49.919 --> 00:17:52.080 dead. The website had been mostly 00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:54.559 offline for the past few years and no 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:57.200 new articles for 2 years. And at that 00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:59.520 point, it was ran by Mike Schiffman, aka 00:17:59.520 --> 00:18:02.160 Route. Skyper wasn't involved at all. 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:03.760 And Mike didn't even know who Skyper 00:18:03.760 --> 00:18:06.960 was. But Skyper had a plan. He wanted to 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.080 revive Frack and needed to do something 00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:14.080 epic to prove his worthiness. And so I 00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:17.360 decided to to steal a domain which was 00:18:17.360 --> 00:18:20.400 frack.org, which back then was not owned 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.960 by the Frack staff. It was owned by 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:24.720 somebody who probably didn't even know 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:25.679 about Frack. 00:18:25.679 --> 00:18:29.120 >> What how did you steal a domain? 00:18:29.120 --> 00:18:30.880 Well, luckily in in the olden days, 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.360 these things were rather easy. Uh, you 00:18:33.360 --> 00:18:35.520 would go to the domain register, in this 00:18:35.520 --> 00:18:38.400 example was a French one, gandi.net, and 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.480 you would initiate a domain transfer, 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.080 and it would ask you that you need the 00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:44.640 authorization code to transfer it. And 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.880 you would right click on the web page 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.080 and say few source code of the web page 00:18:50.080 --> 00:18:51.679 and the authorization code would be 00:18:51.679 --> 00:18:54.400 written there in a hidden HTML tag, in a 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.120 form tag. And that was all you needed 00:18:57.120 --> 00:18:59.840 back then to to do hacking. 00:18:59.840 --> 00:19:01.600 >> Wow. So just by looking at the view 00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:03.360 source of a website, it would show you 00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:05.039 the authorization code that it was 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:06.960 expecting in order to prove that you're 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.679 the owner of the site. I mean, it has to 00:19:09.679 --> 00:19:11.360 compare the authorization code you type 00:19:11.360 --> 00:19:12.960 in with something, right? So there's 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.559 some logic on the back end somewhere. It 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:15.840 just happened to be right there in the 00:19:15.840 --> 00:19:17.840 source code of the site. It was as 00:19:17.840 --> 00:19:20.000 simple as just doing view source and 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.360 then you could take over anyone's 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:23.280 domain. But you also have to put this 00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:25.039 into perspective. Back then, not many 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.039 browsers had a feature to actually view 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:28.240 the source code. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.640 >> So, Skyper had frack.org and wanted to 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.360 use it to revive frack.com. 00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:34.720 But he wasn't doing this alone. He 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.320 actually was involved with a few hacking 00:19:36.320 --> 00:19:39.919 groups, specifically hurt and tesso. 00:19:39.919 --> 00:19:42.480 >> So, Hurt is stands for the hackers 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.120 emergency response team. And Hurt was 00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:47.760 founded around the same time when the 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:49.280 searchs were founded, the computer 00:19:49.280 --> 00:19:52.320 emergency response team. And it was 00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:56.480 meant to be a counterweight to the um C 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:58.480 um because the community felt that often 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.120 their the S the computer emergency 00:20:01.120 --> 00:20:03.120 response team didn't really know what 00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:04.720 they were doing and the publications 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:06.240 were 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.960 often not technically correct. And so 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:10.480 the community created the hackers 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.640 emergency response team where the 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:14.559 hackers published their version of the 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:16.799 vulnerability and their exploits and 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.880 their assessment of the risk and um yeah 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:24.480 that was was how it was and Tessle was 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.039 um a German/Austrian 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.600 um hacker group who later became more 00:20:29.600 --> 00:20:31.120 internationally 00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:33.440 um and went by the name of team Tesso. 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.600 >> So with frack.org Oregon hand and with 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:38.400 Tesso and Hurt behind him, Skyper got 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.799 busy recreating the site to show he can 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.320 manage a website like that. 00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:45.120 >> And then I I spent many days and many 00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:47.760 nights to recreate all the articles. I 00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:49.600 put them in an SQL database so it was 00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:51.760 searchable and copied all the data and 00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:54.960 created the web page and um then put it 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:58.799 online and then called Mike Schiffman 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.679 who was the editor-in chief back then. I 00:21:01.679 --> 00:21:04.159 caught him during breakfast. He's he was 00:21:04.159 --> 00:21:05.280 literally saying, "I'm just having 00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:07.120 breakfast, but what you're saying sounds 00:21:07.120 --> 00:21:09.120 great, so let's do it." Uh there was no 00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:12.320 hesitation. And it was a combination of 00:21:12.320 --> 00:21:16.159 people from Tesso and Herd um who took 00:21:16.159 --> 00:21:19.600 over the Frack magazine in 2000 or 00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:21.679 revived the Frack magazine in the year 00:21:21.679 --> 00:21:24.480 2000. So Skyper was now in control of 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:26.240 Frack and it officially moved from 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.799 frack.com to frack.org, which is where 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.200 it remains today. And it was a whole new 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.799 fresh team. Nobody from the old frack 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.320 staff was around to write any articles 00:21:34.320 --> 00:21:36.960 or to help. So this new team got busy 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:40.320 with a fresh new issue, issue 57. 00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:42.320 >> Yeah. Well, first one already was the 00:21:42.320 --> 00:21:44.480 first hardcover release ever. So we 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.240 decided we want to land with a big bang 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.480 and decided for our very first release. 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.240 Not just are we going to write all the 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.000 artics ourselves, we also create the 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.679 first hard coverver release which we 00:21:53.679 --> 00:21:55.840 release at a at a hack conference, a 00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:58.080 physical copy. So in 2001 was the first 00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:00.400 time Frack had a hard copy created, 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.240 elevating it to the next level. 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:03.840 >> It was fantastic. It was a fantastic 00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:07.039 success. We I think we printed 800 hard 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.600 copies or so. Uh we all picked them up 00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:12.000 with with a car with a rented car and 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.919 these hard copies were heavy. We to 00:22:13.919 --> 00:22:15.280 picked them up in a printer in 00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:18.880 Netherland and the car almost crashed 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.760 with all the with all the load in in the 00:22:21.760 --> 00:22:24.240 trunk on the back seats. Uh we drove to 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.200 the conference and uh went to the main 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:29.760 tent and announced that we are I'm going 00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:32.240 to distribute frack in half an hour and 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.240 we had a great party and handed out the 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:38.000 magazines and lots of alcohol and 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.080 celebrating and talking about it. It was 00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:42.640 a fantastic time. 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.559 >> So hackers trying to hack a hacker 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.200 website is always going to be a thing 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.520 and frack.org Borg had its fair share of 00:22:49.520 --> 00:22:52.080 attacks and uh there was a group that 00:22:52.080 --> 00:22:54.080 particularly was trying to take down 00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:56.720 frack and they called themselves the 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.360 frack high council or PHC. 00:22:59.360 --> 00:23:01.039 >> Yeah. Around that time there was a 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:02.640 movement called the anti-security 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:04.559 movement 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.159 and it was around the time when um 00:23:08.159 --> 00:23:12.320 hacking really got commercialized and 00:23:12.320 --> 00:23:14.159 many many many companies entered the 00:23:14.159 --> 00:23:16.559 community and started to sell cyber 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:20.000 security technology and um hackers would 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.600 start working for these companies and 00:23:21.600 --> 00:23:23.919 they would they would sell the secrets 00:23:23.919 --> 00:23:26.960 that they did not research and did not 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:29.520 discover but that were given to them by 00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:31.919 the community and they were making lots 00:23:31.919 --> 00:23:34.640 of money from it and the community was 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.120 not very happy about that because 00:23:37.120 --> 00:23:38.960 effectively these people stole from the 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:40.559 community 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.120 and so a movement emerged called the 00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:45.440 anti-security movement 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.080 and uh which basically said well that's 00:23:48.080 --> 00:23:50.720 that's not okay we can't do that and out 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:54.480 of that the PHC materialized and they 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.000 were probably let's call them the their 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.240 the radical form of anti-security 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.480 movement they would do witch hunt and 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.760 they would try to hunt down every hacker 00:24:03.760 --> 00:24:07.039 who would work for corporate. I call it 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:09.600 hacker cannibalism where hackers ate 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.600 other hackers and destroyed other 00:24:11.600 --> 00:24:14.799 hackers often unfairly and unjustified. 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.200 It was really a witch hunt. Um and that 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.520 went on for some time and PhD then tried 00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:23.039 to take over frack because they're not 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.000 happy with the editorial staff that who 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.240 was running frack. Of course, they tried 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.240 to hack into the servers and things that 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.080 you would do, but they also tried to to 00:24:32.080 --> 00:24:35.679 to steal articles or send out cold for 00:24:35.679 --> 00:24:37.200 papers and pretending that they were 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.039 frack, but they never never owned the 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.760 domain. Oh, how interesting. They tried 00:24:41.760 --> 00:24:43.600 to pretend to be frack by publishing 00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:45.840 lookalike articles that pretended to 00:24:45.840 --> 00:24:47.120 expose secrets, but they weren't 00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:49.679 actually secrets. A little war was 00:24:49.679 --> 00:24:51.840 breaking out between the corporate cyber 00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:53.840 security culture and the underground 00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:56.240 hacker culture. The Frack High Council 00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:58.400 thought if Frack publishes articles on 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.080 how to hack that it'll be used by 00:25:00.080 --> 00:25:01.440 corporations to make money. So 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.960 therefore, don't publish any articles at 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:04.799 all or publish articles that would be 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:06.320 detrimental to the cyber security 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:07.840 professionals out there who are trying 00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:08.880 to profit from it. 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.159 >> Yeah, they wanted to keep all the 00:25:10.159 --> 00:25:12.559 secrets among themselves and so that 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:16.559 only um they can use them. Um it's very 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.720 selfish. Um and it's also 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.240 counterproductive in a in a in an 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:24.480 intellectual society. You need to share 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:28.480 your ideas um to inspire other people 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.400 and for other people also to verify your 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.200 ideas and to take your ideas further to 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:35.200 the next step. Otherwise, it's a 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.360 stagnation and you won't go anywhere. 00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:39.440 >> Okay, so they they tried to publish an 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.200 article as frack just posing as them. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:42.799 What else? they actually stole some of 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.480 the pre-release of frack and um so what 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.039 happened is that and uh the frack staff 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.000 always releases the upcoming frack 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.640 release to the community to some trusted 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.840 friends and um then after it's released 00:25:57.840 --> 00:26:00.240 to trusted friends then it's released to 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:02.159 some lesser trusted friends and so on 00:26:02.159 --> 00:26:04.559 and so on and after a few days it ended 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.120 up before the official web page release 00:26:07.120 --> 00:26:10.559 in the hands of a PHC guy so this PHC 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:12.240 guy knows that we haven't released it 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:13.600 publicly yet, that it's still a 00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:16.799 community release only. And he modifies 00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.240 the Frack articles, put some back doors 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:22.400 in there, and then publish on his web 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.880 page, the PHC web page, as a new frack 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:27.039 release. And these back doors, they were 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:28.640 not even clever back doors. They were 00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:30.000 just very destructive back doors. It 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.320 would delete your entire computer. 00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:33.919 >> Wow. So, have you ever looked up a 00:26:33.919 --> 00:26:35.679 tutorial online and it had some some 00:26:35.679 --> 00:26:37.760 script or code or something and that's 00:26:37.760 --> 00:26:39.279 what you needed to do? That's the 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.440 command you were looking for. And so you 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:42.880 just copy and paste it into your 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:44.559 computer, but you don't actually know 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.039 what it does. Yeah. Well, if you would 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:48.799 have tried to copy and paste this 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.480 script, it had the command rm-rf, 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:54.480 which would delete your whole hard 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.200 drive. How funny is that? Obviously, 00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:59.440 Frack Staff didn't put that destructive 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:01.440 command in their magazine, but that 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.360 version of the article still existed out 00:27:03.360 --> 00:27:06.000 there somewhere. Skyper and his team had 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.760 brought Frack back. They were publishing 00:27:07.760 --> 00:27:10.880 yearly issues of Frack. But then Skyper 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:12.159 moved on to do other things. But there 00:27:12.159 --> 00:27:13.840 was enough momentum and there was enough 00:27:13.840 --> 00:27:15.200 people involved with Frack at that point 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:17.360 for it to keep going on its own. But it 00:27:17.360 --> 00:27:20.000 was slow going. Yearly issues turned 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:23.039 into every other year issues and then 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:24.880 sometimes there'd be four years between 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.400 issues. 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.679 And in 2016, it seemed like that was the 00:27:29.679 --> 00:27:32.240 last issue of Frack. Frack staff just 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.320 wasn't there anymore. And there were no 00:27:34.320 --> 00:27:37.440 issues coming out. But 5 years after 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.480 that in 2021, to all our surprise, a new 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.720 issue of Frack was released, we thought 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.039 it was dead. But we were super happy to 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:46.640 see a new issue. And I remember hearing 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.240 people at Defcon tell me that year that 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.240 they used an exploit that they saw in 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.159 that new issue of Frack to make a bunch 00:27:52.159 --> 00:27:54.159 of money on bug bounties that year. So 00:27:54.159 --> 00:27:56.080 it still had teeth and grit and was 00:27:56.080 --> 00:27:57.679 hard-hitting. Well, at least until 00:27:57.679 --> 00:28:00.559 things got patched. But that seemed to 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.559 be the last harrah for Frack. The 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.080 internal Frack staff just sort of 00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:06.000 fizzled out. there wasn't support much 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.320 for it. The people were just very 00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:11.279 loosely involved at that point and they 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:13.200 decided to get together in 2023 to 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.679 discuss the future of frack 00:28:15.679 --> 00:28:18.480 >> and we actually met in Spain to to 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.159 discuss a bit the future about uh frack 00:28:22.159 --> 00:28:25.120 and we decided that's not just for for 00:28:25.120 --> 00:28:26.799 two or three people to decide that we 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:28.240 should really ask Mike Schiffman again 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.240 and some of the old staffers and 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.200 previous staffers what their opinion is. 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.919 And then eventually we had a big phone 00:28:35.919 --> 00:28:38.960 call with um maybe six or eight people 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.760 of the old stuff and new stuff on there 00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:44.399 and we discussed what we should do and 00:28:44.399 --> 00:28:46.880 there were various options. Some people 00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.399 said, "Hey, let's do one more frack and 00:28:48.399 --> 00:28:50.399 let's just call it. That's it." You 00:28:50.399 --> 00:28:52.960 know, the last frag. And then other 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.960 people said, "No, we can't even do that. 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:58.080 The community is dead." And most 00:28:58.080 --> 00:28:59.919 importantly, there were the very few of 00:28:59.919 --> 00:29:02.080 us who said, "No, no, the community is 00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:04.240 always there. There is still a community 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:05.840 that deserves a magazine like this. 00:29:05.840 --> 00:29:07.279 There's always curiosity out there and 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.640 always the need for for people to to 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.039 publish articles and we have to provide 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:14.480 a platform for them so they can do it. 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:16.320 and Frack is the perfect platform for 00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:18.720 for these articles. Uh so we were 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.120 brainstorming about um who we could 00:29:21.120 --> 00:29:23.760 contact out there who who has experience 00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:27.120 with running a magazine um who who would 00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:28.880 enjoy running magazine and who is also 00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.799 technically skilled because you know 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.200 Frack in the end is a is a very 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.399 technical magazine. So the the group 00:29:36.399 --> 00:29:38.640 that came to our minds were the people 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.880 who were running already Tempout 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:41.760 magazine. 00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:44.159 >> Temp out is very similar to Frack. It's 00:29:44.159 --> 00:29:46.960 an eene which posts articles on hacking. 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.039 It has its own edgginess to it like 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:50.640 there's a bunch of asy art and 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:53.200 hard-hitting articles and it was TMZ 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.760 here who co-ounded Tempout. 00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:58.960 >> So Temp is a group that uh is a research 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.360 group that we formed maybe 5 years ago 00:30:01.360 --> 00:30:04.960 now. Uh we started as I three people we 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.000 just wanted to like uh research uh ELF 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.080 infection techniques or Linux viruses 00:30:10.080 --> 00:30:11.760 and things like this. We thought it was 00:30:11.760 --> 00:30:14.159 like a very niche area that we had like 00:30:14.159 --> 00:30:16.000 a people in common that wanted to do 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.240 that and so we kind of you know 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:20.480 brainstormed a little bit and then more 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.159 people were joining and then eventually 00:30:22.159 --> 00:30:23.840 we had like a discord channel there's 00:30:23.840 --> 00:30:28.480 like 1,500 people there now and uh 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.640 suddenly you know the community was like 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.480 okay what if we make like a zen you know 00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.640 like in the old days uh people like oh 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.080 yeah I wanted to write the script or 00:30:36.080 --> 00:30:39.200 whatever so we just give it a go like 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:42.000 and we made four uh volumes already of 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.520 it uh so far and it's been like really 00:30:45.520 --> 00:30:46.559 really nice 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.159 >> and we contacted them and um we went had 00:30:50.159 --> 00:30:52.080 a phone call together and the rest is 00:30:52.080 --> 00:30:55.440 history. 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.600 >> I was honestly like speechless when that 00:30:57.600 --> 00:30:59.840 happened. Like I was very very anxious. 00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:02.799 I remember that I was on vacation and I 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.520 just ran to the uh I was actually to 00:31:05.520 --> 00:31:07.919 about to catch a flight. So, I just like 00:31:07.919 --> 00:31:10.559 found like a the quietest corner of the 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.360 airport lounge that I could find and had 00:31:13.360 --> 00:31:16.000 the call with them and took notes of 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.720 everything. Uh, essentially like the 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.120 idea was like, "Okay, uh, if you wanted 00:31:21.120 --> 00:31:23.039 to to give it a go, you know, trust you 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:24.960 with that." The former staff also was 00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.039 saying like, "Okay, we we maybe should, 00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:28.720 you know, do something different this 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:30.880 time, like, uh, make Frock like well 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:33.200 known again." 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.120 The Tempout team had already established 00:31:35.120 --> 00:31:37.039 themselves as a group who was technical, 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.360 smart, and could ship articles and 00:31:39.360 --> 00:31:41.760 immediately got busy reviving Frack. 00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:44.240 Once again, I had no idea that the teams 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:46.080 behind Frack have shifted so much 00:31:46.080 --> 00:31:48.000 throughout the 40 years. But when is 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.519 volunteer-driven, I suppose that's what 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.760 happens. So, the Temp Out team was 00:31:51.760 --> 00:31:53.519 excited to be taking over Frack and 00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:55.200 wanted to make their first issue a big 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.080 one. It was 2023 and in the 7 years 00:31:58.080 --> 00:31:59.760 before that, there had only been one 00:31:59.760 --> 00:32:01.760 Frack issue released. So, a lot of 00:32:01.760 --> 00:32:03.600 people just thought it was dead, but to 00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:05.360 show them that it wasn't dead. They 00:32:05.360 --> 00:32:07.919 wanted to make a physical copy and 00:32:07.919 --> 00:32:09.600 release it at Defcon. 00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:11.519 >> Yeah. Uh we just thought actually about 00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.000 doing only an online release. Uh we we 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:15.200 didn't really thought about actually 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.360 doing a physical release last year uh 00:32:17.360 --> 00:32:20.960 until kind of late uh in the process. 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.799 And then we were just like, okay, what 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.919 if we do it? you know, can we do it? Do 00:32:25.919 --> 00:32:27.679 we have like some budget? Can we like 00:32:27.679 --> 00:32:30.080 talk to some people? So, we're able to 00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:32.399 raise some funds. Uh, and we were able 00:32:32.399 --> 00:32:34.799 to get like 500 copies down to uh to 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.720 Vegas. Yeah. Was the first very 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.480 interesting for us to experience some 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.480 logistics because, you know, releasing a 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:45.120 physical copy of things, it's it's not 00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:47.360 as easy as it sounds like not only like 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:49.360 you have to actually make the material 00:32:49.360 --> 00:32:51.200 uh but, you know, the distribution, 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:52.559 especially at FCON. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.200 >> Wow. Okay. So, last year you actually 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:57.679 reached out to me to uh you were looking 00:32:57.679 --> 00:32:59.679 for a place to to spread them or give 00:32:59.679 --> 00:33:00.640 them out. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.360 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we had 00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.600 a few of them uh downstairs, right? And 00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:07.279 then we're just like, "Yeah, sure." But 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:08.960 we kind of wanted like a place more 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:11.120 centralized for that. And that uh it was 00:33:11.120 --> 00:33:12.799 very nice to to get some of the copies 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:14.320 there at the party at the Dark in the 00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:16.320 Darkness party. People really liked it. 00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:17.840 And I remember like a lot of people were 00:33:17.840 --> 00:33:20.880 so happy and uh I think that's what made 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.120 uh me feel like very realized. That's 00:33:23.120 --> 00:33:25.600 why I was like a lot of people they 00:33:25.600 --> 00:33:27.440 looked at it and they looked at it as 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:28.960 the most precious thing that I ever 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:30.960 touched like you know they they say yeah 00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.360 I I'm here and I like what I do now 00:33:33.360 --> 00:33:36.159 because of frock like 25 years ago 30 00:33:36.159 --> 00:33:38.480 years ago. So you know that that's 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.039 that's really like a very very nice to 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:42.559 >> it. It's a special moment for me. I 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.799 mean, the fact that the Frack staff came 00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:46.559 in and started handing out frack 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.120 magazines at my party was I felt like, 00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:51.679 man, I I this is this is special. This 00:33:51.679 --> 00:33:54.720 is cool. I didn't I I I'm feel honored 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:56.960 to have been one of the places to uh to 00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.480 spread it because I think you only you 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.480 pick like three or four places to spread 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.480 out the magazines there. 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:03.200 >> Yeah, correct. 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:03.919 >> And uh 00:34:03.919 --> 00:34:05.120 >> yeah, thank you for having us. It was 00:34:05.120 --> 00:34:05.679 really 00:34:05.679 --> 00:34:07.840 >> I I cherish my copy that I got from you. 00:34:07.840 --> 00:34:09.520 I wish I got it signed. As soon as I 00:34:09.520 --> 00:34:11.599 left that night, I was like, "Oh no, how 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:14.320 did I not get it signed by you?" But um 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:15.919 yeah, that's that feels like a very 00:34:15.919 --> 00:34:18.720 special um book to to own. It's it's 00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:20.240 more of a book. It's in my hand here. 00:34:20.240 --> 00:34:22.000 And my gosh, this thing is heavy. So, 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.800 Frack 71. Um I'm just looking through 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:27.280 it. It's very text. There's hardly any 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:29.040 pictures at all. And I guess that's 00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:30.720 because you were saying, 00:34:30.720 --> 00:34:32.079 >> you know, we weren't even thinking about 00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:33.679 printing it. And then when you finally 00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:34.800 got around to printing it, it's like, 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:35.919 okay, well, we'll just print the 00:34:35.919 --> 00:34:38.000 articles. 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.159 >> Yeah. So editing this is already hard, 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:41.599 you know, for somebody that doesn't have 00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:42.720 like, you know, that doesn't work with 00:34:42.720 --> 00:34:43.839 it, I guess. 00:34:43.839 --> 00:34:47.359 >> Um, but we also like, okay, we keep the 00:34:47.359 --> 00:34:48.879 style, right? Like that's what the first 00:34:48.879 --> 00:34:51.599 thought like also. So it's easier 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.119 because it's, you know, less editing, 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:55.839 but also like which is already pretty 00:34:55.839 --> 00:34:57.920 hard, but you know, we keep the the text 00:34:57.920 --> 00:34:59.520 plain text style, which a lot of people 00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:03.520 relate to and really really like. 00:35:03.520 --> 00:35:05.440 >> So Tempo proved themselves to be able to 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:08.480 ship and issue a frack. Great. But Frack 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:12.640 started in 1985. So with 2025 coming, it 00:35:12.640 --> 00:35:14.000 would mark the 40th anniversary of 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.599 Frack, which got a lot of people excited 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:17.599 to pitch in and help make a great new 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:21.200 issue. If Frack 72, because it's marked 00:35:21.200 --> 00:35:24.079 our 40th anniversary, we we all wanted 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:27.760 to to make something very special. So we 00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:30.240 the initial idea was to go back to the 00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:33.599 Netherland to release the magazine there 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.680 again as a hard copy where we released 00:35:35.680 --> 00:35:39.520 the first hard copy 24 years before. Um 00:35:39.520 --> 00:35:42.160 but we got enough funding and we got 00:35:42.160 --> 00:35:45.200 enough community support to then be able 00:35:45.200 --> 00:35:48.160 to coordinate um a release at three 00:35:48.160 --> 00:35:50.240 different conferences at the same time 00:35:50.240 --> 00:35:53.440 which was in Netherland and at Defcon in 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.760 Las Vegas and at Hope in in New York 00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.800 City and then very smaller conferences 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.440 all around the world. Uh so that was 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:03.599 that was beautiful how the community 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.599 came together and everybody chipped in 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:08.480 some dollars and helped us. The one that 00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:10.880 I have actually has a Defcon special 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:12.480 edition written on the cover. So, were 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:14.560 there multiple covers? 00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:16.320 >> Yes, we have three different covers. 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.359 Actually, four. Uh, one of them is is 00:36:19.359 --> 00:36:21.040 going to be released later this year. 00:36:21.040 --> 00:36:22.240 >> I'd like to add something there. When 00:36:22.240 --> 00:36:25.359 TMZ says, um, there are four covers. um 00:36:25.359 --> 00:36:27.680 three that are already released and one 00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:29.359 of them that will be released at the end 00:36:29.359 --> 00:36:31.760 of the year, it's because we're going to 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:35.440 release the PDF online for everybody to 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.480 to print it at home or print it on a on 00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:39.920 a professional print shop and get it 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:41.280 shipped to their home address. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.160 >> So, Frack issue 72 was released at 00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:47.599 Defcon in 2025, and I was there to get a 00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:48.400 copy of it. 00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:49.920 >> Yeah. This year, we turned it up a 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:51.520 notch. This year, we didn't show up with 00:36:51.520 --> 00:36:54.000 500 copies. turned up with close to 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.000 8,000 copies at Defcon. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.320 >> Most, if not all, articles of Frack are 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.079 simply text files. There are no visuals 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.079 or graphics at all. Well, I should say 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:03.680 you can see some ASI art there, but 00:37:03.680 --> 00:37:05.680 that's just still text in the shape of a 00:37:05.680 --> 00:37:07.599 picture. But this 40th anniversary 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:10.720 edition, man, does it pop. Every page 00:37:10.720 --> 00:37:12.480 has a graphic on it, and it's really 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:14.240 cool. It feels like a highquality 00:37:14.240 --> 00:37:16.400 magazine at this point, and it's bulky 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.400 and has a ton of articles in it. 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:21.839 >> Yeah. So uh we got the opportunity uh to 00:37:21.839 --> 00:37:23.839 have the wonderful people at page from 00:37:23.839 --> 00:37:25.760 page out which is another magazine as 00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:29.520 well uh to do the graphics for us. I 00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:31.599 mean as you can as you know because you 00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:34.400 saw it already it just it's mindblowing. 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:38.320 the quality is so so good. And I 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:40.160 remember when I got the confirmation 00:37:40.160 --> 00:37:43.440 that they would do it, I was so relieved 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.280 that I didn't have to do it myself 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.599 because one, I mean, I know it's hard 00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:49.200 for me because I'm not an expert on 00:37:49.200 --> 00:37:51.839 this. And second, like I would never be 00:37:51.839 --> 00:37:53.680 able to match this quality or nobody at 00:37:53.680 --> 00:37:56.240 least that it's in the current staff. 00:37:56.240 --> 00:38:00.240 And they just like it's just incredible. 00:38:00.240 --> 00:38:02.240 And I think like Fra never looked that 00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:04.480 good. >> Yeah. 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.880 It looks great. Yeah, you've uh it feels 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:09.520 like you're um coming coming of age, but 00:38:09.520 --> 00:38:11.040 even 40 years later and it's like 00:38:11.040 --> 00:38:13.839 looking great. Uh I like that. That that 00:38:13.839 --> 00:38:16.560 makes me excited about the future. Um 00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:18.960 getting it getting you said 8,000 copies 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:20.320 to Defcon. 00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:23.280 >> Yeah, we had I think around 15,000 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.760 copies spread amongst those three 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:26.560 conferences. 00:38:26.560 --> 00:38:29.680 >> Yeah. I mean uh gosh, how how much does 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:31.280 that even weigh? How do you even get 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.119 that to DevCon? 00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:37.520 That's part of the problem as well. Um 00:38:37.520 --> 00:38:39.760 first uh to solve these issues, we tried 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.640 to find like local printers, right? And 00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:44.720 uh it is it is very very challenging uh 00:38:44.720 --> 00:38:46.640 because the transportation is very 00:38:46.640 --> 00:38:47.920 costly. 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:50.800 >> So we we found a Vegas printer and I 00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.480 think the for Defcon that was 10 tons or 00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:54.800 something. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:56.000 >> 10 tons of paper. 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.839 >> Wow. >> Yeah. 00:38:57.839 --> 00:39:00.880 >> Yeah. So the logistical issue is is that 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.880 you don't only have to deliver it by 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:06.720 truck to Defcon, you also need manpower 00:39:06.720 --> 00:39:08.560 on the ground to 00:39:08.560 --> 00:39:11.520 >> hand carry 10 tons from the loading bay 00:39:11.520 --> 00:39:15.680 to the registration desk. So all these 00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:17.680 little details we had to learn and 00:39:17.680 --> 00:39:20.240 figure out. It was great to see Frack 00:39:20.240 --> 00:39:22.240 all over the place at Defcon this year. 00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:23.839 People were showing me how excited they 00:39:23.839 --> 00:39:25.920 were when they got their copy. Some got 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.240 it signed by the frack staff. Some had 00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:30.160 me sign it for some reason. It was a 00:39:30.160 --> 00:39:33.119 wonderful time. But what surprised me is 00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:35.119 that this is such a high quality 00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:37.599 magazine. But then thousands of them 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.440 were given out to everyone just for 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.000 free. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.079 >> Frack is for the community always. It's 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.720 always free. So uh somebody tries to 00:39:44.720 --> 00:39:46.960 sell you a frock, you know that it's not 00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:47.599 from us. 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:49.040 >> You you say you're never going to charge 00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:50.960 for these things. 00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:52.000 >> We're never going to charge. 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.079 >> No. No. It's so cool having 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:55.920 >> people are welcome to help us in any way 00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:57.680 right the community is there for this 00:39:57.680 --> 00:39:59.839 people can help us with like article 00:39:59.839 --> 00:40:04.079 reviews with uh uh art as well and they 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.079 people did which is very very nice to 00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:09.200 see like this year's uh there's a lot of 00:40:09.200 --> 00:40:11.280 people involved uh you know the artist 00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.320 that draw the covers for example as well 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.160 so there's several ways that people can 00:40:16.160 --> 00:40:18.240 help us make this happen and and we do 00:40:18.240 --> 00:40:20.720 it for them and they do it for for the 00:40:20.720 --> 00:40:22.400 community as 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:24.400 Well, it's uh impressive that you're 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:28.240 able to make it happen and and have such 00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:30.320 a high quality print uh print magazine 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.320 here. I mean, this what this thing is 00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:33.680 like 100 pages long. 00:40:33.680 --> 00:40:35.680 >> It needs to be said that of course these 00:40:35.680 --> 00:40:37.440 thing cost money to print. The printer 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.920 still wants to be paid. He doesn't do a 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:42.720 favor for frack. And so the the defcon 00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:47.680 print in its own was about um $55,000. 00:40:47.680 --> 00:40:50.160 So this is still money that we had to 00:40:50.160 --> 00:40:52.800 raise from the community. But good thing 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:57.200 is that many of our friends who who were 00:40:57.200 --> 00:41:00.240 doing frack with us in the year 2000 and 00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:02.720 2001 and who are reading frack with us 00:41:02.720 --> 00:41:05.200 and who are writing articles for us. Now 00:41:05.200 --> 00:41:08.240 24 years later they have all made their 00:41:08.240 --> 00:41:10.240 fortunes. They're running big companies. 00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:12.800 Some of them are traded on the stock 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.680 exchange. So these people came back to 00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:17.440 us and they were happy to support us 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:19.440 financially and and help us with this 00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:21.119 immense cost. 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.280 >> The magazine that launched 10,000 cyber 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.800 security careers, huh? 00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.160 >> Exactly. 00:41:28.160 --> 00:41:30.480 >> Well, so that's where we're at today. 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.319 40th anniversary. Well, congrats on the 00:41:32.319 --> 00:41:36.079 on a 40 years of running a running a 00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.319 thing or keeping it going. And it's so 00:41:38.319 --> 00:41:39.760 fascinating that it's communitydriven 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.839 almost like Dread Pirate Roberts, right? 00:41:41.839 --> 00:41:44.480 He he's his name lives on, but it's not 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:46.240 always the same person that lives on, 00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:48.240 right? And so Frack continues to live on 00:41:48.240 --> 00:41:49.839 because the community keeps it going 00:41:49.839 --> 00:41:51.440 >> and the community is as strong as ever 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:53.520 now. Uh and I think we it's going to 00:41:53.520 --> 00:41:54.960 grow even further. 00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.800 >> Yeah. Tell us about the future. 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.680 >> Yeah. So I think we really want to keep 00:41:59.680 --> 00:42:02.400 the community uh growing. Uh we want to 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:04.079 get a little bit better. So every time 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.160 we do a release, we learn a lot about 00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:08.800 everything, right? logistics and article 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.319 reviewings and you know project 00:42:10.319 --> 00:42:12.560 management and all those things. Um so 00:42:12.560 --> 00:42:14.560 we're not expressed on nothing on this. 00:42:14.560 --> 00:42:16.240 We also like have you know our day jobs 00:42:16.240 --> 00:42:19.599 and all those things. Um so we're 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:21.920 learning as we go as well and uh the 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:25.440 community I think uh we want to grow and 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:27.280 have like more people involved to help 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:30.000 us. uh we have a lot of people that 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:31.440 sometimes they say yeah I don't have 00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.599 time to to write an article this year or 00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:36.000 something like this but you know they do 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:37.680 have spare time to like help with the 00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:39.680 article reviews. So for example this is 00:42:39.680 --> 00:42:42.880 already like a very very good job. Um I 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:44.560 think in the future we want to get more 00:42:44.560 --> 00:42:46.800 people involved like if you want to to 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.280 say like in a very brief way uh we want 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.119 like to be accessible. 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:52.800 >> Okay. So I got a physical copy but 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:54.079 that's just cuz I happen to be at the 00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:55.359 right time and right place. Is there a 00:42:55.359 --> 00:42:56.960 way to get a physical copy by ordering 00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:00.240 it? Yes. Uh like last year we made it 00:43:00.240 --> 00:43:02.319 available for self print at cost 00:43:02.319 --> 00:43:04.560 obviously so we don't profit. Uh and of 00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:06.000 course you can print anywhere you want. 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:07.920 We have like just a recommended printer 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:09.760 whatever it doesn't really matter uh 00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:11.839 because we released the the full high 00:43:11.839 --> 00:43:14.560 quality PDF as well. So you can print 00:43:14.560 --> 00:43:16.720 and edit if you want at your own local 00:43:16.720 --> 00:43:18.560 print shop. And this year is going to be 00:43:18.560 --> 00:43:19.440 the same. 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:20.880 >> Brack is currently looking for new 00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:22.720 articles for their upcoming issue. If 00:43:22.720 --> 00:43:24.400 you've got a new hacking technique or 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:25.760 thinking of researching a specific 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.000 technology or protocol, reach out to the 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.160 Frack staff with your draft or even just 00:43:30.160 --> 00:43:32.720 an idea. They are very helpful at giving 00:43:32.720 --> 00:43:35.040 you feedback to help you draft a great 00:43:35.040 --> 00:43:36.480 article. Even if your English is not 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:38.160 very good, they can help co-author the 00:43:38.160 --> 00:43:39.760 article with you. And of course, you can 00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:42.000 still read every issue of Frack free of 00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.119 charge at frack.org. Here's to another 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:59.920 40 years of an awesome hacker magazine. 00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:02.079 A big thank you to Skyper and TMZ for 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:03.520 coming on the show and sharing the 00:44:03.520 --> 00:44:05.520 history and stories of Frack. It really 00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:07.040 is looking better than ever, and I can't 00:44:07.040 --> 00:44:08.800 wait to see what they make next. In the 00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:10.160 show notes, you'll find links to where 00:44:10.160 --> 00:44:12.000 you can order a physical copy of issue 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.240 72, or just download the PDF and print 00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:16.400 it at home. The show is made by me, the 00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:18.640 packet tickler, Jack Recider. Editing by 00:44:18.640 --> 00:44:20.960 the control alt delight Tristan Ledger. 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:22.800 Mixing by proximity sound. And our theme 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:24.319 music is by the mysterious brake master 00:44:24.319 --> 00:44:28.720 cylinder. I named my dog Rejax because 00:44:28.720 --> 00:44:31.119 nobody understands him. Not even me. 00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:35.079 This is Darknet Diaries.