WEBVTT

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JACK: Just real quick before we get started, this is Part 2 of the series on XBox Underground,

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so listen to Part 1 first before this one.

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Alright, let’s get started.

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[MUSIC] One of my favorite Greek myths is the story of Icarus.

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He was a young boy stuck on an island.

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His father made a pair of wings made out of wax and feathers for him to fly away.

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Icarus put on the wings and was able to fly around.

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His father told him not to fly too high or too low.

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Icarus took off and flew away, but forgot about his father’s warning and flew too

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close to the sun.

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The wax melted and his wings fell apart.

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He free-fell and plunged into the sea below and drowned.

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JACK (INTRO): [INTRO MUSIC] These are true stories from the dark side of the internet.

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I’m Jack Rhysider.

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This is Darknet Diaries.

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[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

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JACK: Alright, let’s recap real quick.

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We left off with this XBox Underground hacking crew having full access to dozens of networks

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of video game companies like Epic, Activision, EA, Bungee, Microsoft, Zombie Studios, and

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Steam.

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We’re going to be hearing more from Skitzo who was sort of watching this whole thing

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from afar.

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SKITZO: It’s not just the XBox that defined this group.

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The XBox put it on the map.

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It’s all the other fucking shenanigans that brought it together.

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JACK: Of course, we have Sanad, who’s loving the fact that he can play early-release versions

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of XBox games, but also at the same time, a little worried that things might be going

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a little too far.

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SANAD: Yeah, exactly.

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JACK: Then there’s Dylan, who’s just hacking into everything he can, sort of on a total

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rampage.

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But at the same time, he’s willing to share this story with us.

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DYLAN: Where do we begin?

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JACK: There are other hackers involved, too; there’s David who’s doing a lot of Halo

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modding and he’s fascinated with everything Microsoft.

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Then there’s Nathan who’s part of the scene.

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He’s really smart and helps him out sometimes.

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Then there’s Justin May, or MTW, who got arrested at PAX but is still active in the

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group.

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Then there’s other characters like Austin and Anthony who are also doing their own hacks.

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But they’re all only after video games though, and source code.

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They all pretty much agreed not to steal any credit cards or empty any PayPal accounts

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or make any money with this hacking.

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For the most part, they didn’t dig into any personal data, either.

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One of the networks they had access to was Microsoft itself, the makers of the XBox.

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David was particularly interested in seeing what new stuff Microsoft was doing, and perhaps

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had a weird fantasy about someday working for the team behind the XBox.

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They put a lot of focus into poking around this network.

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They had a few valid logins for the XBox Developer’s Network and they’d log in with different

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accounts to see what different developers had access to.

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One day, Dylan logged into an account and noticed a new folder that this developer had

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access to but other developers didn’t.

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DYLAN: [MUSIC] It was like okay, this is not something that’s normally there.

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We click on this.

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It was like it wasn’t – it was just called Durango.

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JACK: Dylan was looking through this developer’s account which displayed different kinds of

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hardware components that they had access to.

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The developer had access to an XBox 360 system, the XBox Kinect, now this Durango system.

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Hm.

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What’s a Durango, he thought?

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DYLAN: We had no idea what it was.

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JACK: Maybe this was some kind of secret project Microsoft was working on.

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DYLAN: We were like, well that’s a bit odd.

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We navigated there.

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JACK: In this server was a SharePoint website.

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After playing around with the URLs of the SharePoint site, they were able to see a listing

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of a lot of files.

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DYLAN: That gave us access to hey, these internal documents.

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JACK: Of course, they start grabbing these documents; spec sheets, photos, driver software,

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source code, and more.

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They share all this information with their circle of hackers and someone figures it out.

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This is the specs for the new [00:05:00] XBox which would be later known as the XBox One,

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but at that time, it was simply code-named Durango.

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This hacker group was holding in their hands all of the ingredients and blueprints of the

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next XBox that Microsoft was working on.

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DYLAN: We had two pictures of the internals, or the back of the machine, and the internals,

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and one picture of just the case.

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Then we had the software itself which was their recovery software.

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That kind of gave us the basis for okay, let’s just try and build the hardware.

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[MUSIC] What we found out was they were using a Supermicro case and if you know anything

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about the XBox 360, it was previously using a Mac Pro G5 at the time.

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These were just off-the-shelf kind of things.

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JACK: Now, when a group of hackers who are becoming experts at reverse-engineering software

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and are able to look through machine code, and had a few clues to go by, of course they

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began trying to figure out what hardware it would take to run the software.

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DYLAN: Really, we just went into the drivers, saw what the drivers they were using, and

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compared them to what we saw in the pictures, cross-referenced it, cross-referenced the

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specs of the machine, an idea of what processor they were using, what graphics card they were

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using, and pretty soon we had this identical hardware list.

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JACK: Everyone is thinking the same thing at this point; let’s build a Durango.

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SANAD: They just started going on Newegg and finding all the parts on there.

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JACK: People started pitching in to help buy the parts and put these things together.

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Nathan volunteered to get all the parts shipped to his house, and he’d build the thing.

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SANAD: Nathan got all the parts from Newegg.

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He puts it together and he installs Durango OS on it.

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JACK: It worked.

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Nathan had in his hands pretty much the exact prototype to the next XBox gaming system which

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nobody had yet except for a few Microsoft developers.

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This was incredible.

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I mean, this is something every tech magazine on the planet wished they had, and here this

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small group of hackers had it and was just keeping it quiet amongst themselves.

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It was expensive to make though, and didn’t do much more than a regular XBox, so the group

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decided to sell it off.

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Nathan was happy to do this since he needed some money to pay for college.

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The group starts asking around the people they know to see if anyone would be interested

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in buying it.

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They did find a buyer, another hacking group heavy into modding XBoxes.

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They wanted it.

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They were willing to pay $5,000 for this counterfeit Durango.

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DYLAN: Okay, so yeah, the buyer paid – I believe it was five grand US.

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Yeah, they internationally bank-transferred it to me while I was actually abroad.

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We didn’t even think this would happen but yeah, it happens, so we were like okay, well,

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time to send them the hardware.

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JACK: Nathan had this unit and the buyer wanted them to send it to Seychelles, an island off

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the coast of Africa.

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Justin volunteered to ship it there.

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Remember Justin, right?

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He’s the one who got arrested at PAX.

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Justin and Nathan lived in Delaware and Maryland, so not really that far from each other.

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DYLAN: He goes to meet up with Justin, or MTW, and he hands off the unit to MTW to ship

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out.

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Now, why they did it that way, I have no idea.

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JACK: Justin may have been scamming the post office.

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Somehow, he was able to get super-cheap shipping.

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He was able to convince people hey, let me ship it.

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It’ll be a lot cheaper if I do it.

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Justin gets the package and ships it off.

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DYLAN: Somehow it never got to the destination.

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JACK: Justin was the last one to see that Durango.

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It just disappeared after that.

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What really went on here?

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Some speculate it could have just been lost in shipping, or maybe the FBI intercepted

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it.

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Maybe Justin was an informant for the FBI and the whole thing was just set up to make

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Justin look good as an informant.

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Nobody knows.

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Now, actually, Sanad didn’t know any of this was going on at the time.

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SANAD: Here’s the thing; they would do stuff and then when shit went wrong, that’s when

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they would tell me.

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I’m just like, why would you tell me now?

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You know what I mean?

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‘Cause I was obviously the older one out of all of them so I have a little more street

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smarts, so to say.

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When certain things seem off and your gut is telling you something’s off, then it’s

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off.

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Justin just, I don’t know what it was about him, but he always gave me this weird feeling

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that he was always up to something fishy.

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JACK: But even if people thought Justin was fishy, they still shared various sensitive

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stuff with him and even though this whole selling of a Durango was shady and really

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weird, Dylan thought let’s do it again.

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[MUSIC] He decided to make a second one and sell it.

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DYLAN: [00:10:00] We didn’t actually make a second one.

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That’s the interesting thing.

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I decided okay, well, we got these photos from when we posted about it before.

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I was like well, I might as well put it on eBay and see what attention I can get from

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it.

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JACK: So, you took the photos from the first one you built and you stuck it on eBay?

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DYLAN: We took the photos which had my username at the time on it, and we stuck it on eBay.

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JACK: When Sanad heard about this, he wasn’t happy.

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SANAD: Oh, I was pretty ticked off.

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I even mentioned to them that I was ticked off.

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I told them to stop.

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I tried to be as cautious as possible but there was only so much I could do.

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I couldn’t control the other people.

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JACK: The Durango listing on eBay started getting bids like crazy.

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The listing went viral.

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It quickly rose past $5,000, past $10,000.

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People just kept bidding on it.

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It rose all the way to $20,000.

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That’s when I believe eBay cancelled the auction.

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This was a counterfeit item and coveted Microsoft intellectual property.

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But it was with this that the world became known that the code name for the new XBox

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was Durango.

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This eBay listing pissed off David.

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This was too risky and bold of Dylan.

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This caught a ton of media attention.

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For sure Microsoft was going to investigate how this got stolen or created, and they might

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start coming after him.

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David got angry and stopped talking to Dylan.

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DYLAN: It turned into such a headache because here’s the flip side of it; imagine you’re

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a partner of Microsoft and you’re seeing that your shit may not be that secure on Microsoft’s

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side.

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We want to do audits, we want audits and security, we want logs.

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How can we trust you guys?

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Think of the IT team, or security personnels with each respective department.

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Think of the jobs that were lost, the uncomfortable conversations, the millions of dollars spent

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trying to mitigate this problem.

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It’s not fun.

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JACK: Microsoft did start investigating this big-time and perhaps they were aware of this

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hacking long before this, but now they had a smoking gun that something was getting stolen

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from the strongholds of Microsoft.

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This wasn’t good for anyone.

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Microsoft assigned a senior security executive named Miles Hawkes to start investigating

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the case.

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A few weeks later the first person falls; Nathan Leroux.

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This is the guy who was creating some in-game gold in some games, and he was participating

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in some of the hacks for these companies, and he was the one who put the Durango together.

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The FBI paid him a visit.

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SANAD: I believe him and Dylan were on a video chat or something, and he got raided during

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that video chat.

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DYLAN: I don’t believe I was on a call with him when he was getting raided, no.

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He was on an anime marathon.

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He was watching it for probably over a day, yeah.

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When the police showed up, you could see us, you could see his mug shot.

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He was completely out of it, yeah.

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That’s kind of the reasoning behind why he looks so shitty in his mug shot because

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he really didn’t get any sleep.

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JACK: The FBI had a long and serious talk with Nathan.

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Who knows what they talked about though, and how long it really was?

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Perhaps they even confiscated all of Nathan’s computers.

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This was a very intense situation for Nathan.

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From then on out, he was scared straight.

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He completely disappeared from the hacking scene and he moved to a new place.

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He got a straight-and-narrow job in a small game development studio.

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[MUSIC] From here, things started to break up.

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There was new air among the group and things had gotten out of hand.

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It was uncontrollable; there was just too many digital tracks left everywhere.

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People were getting angry with each other and growing apart.

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David and Anthony feuded over something and split apart.

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Sanad went quiet and kept his nose out of trouble.

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Dylan, well, Dylan just kept at it.

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DYLAN: I think at that point we were very much done.

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We knew we went too deep.

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We knew something’s gonna happen eventually and I think I kind of took this route of self-destruction

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where I just was like, you know what?

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Fuck it.

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JACK: A few others pushed on, too.

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Before Nathan got arrested, he taught Anthony what he knows about creating in-game money

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and selling it.

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There’s a popular EA game called FIFA.

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It’s a soccer game and it’s hugely popular around the world.

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In the game are coins that you can use to buy extra things like jerseys and improve

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your players.

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Millions of people play the game all the time and they want more FIFA [00:15:00] coins to

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improve their team.

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Even today, buying and selling FIFA coins is highly lucrative.

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Nathan found a way to create in-game coins and sell them to people for real money, but

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he wasn’t really good at it.

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It was crude and there wasn’t really a good way to do it.

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But now that Anthony wasn’t really talking to David anymore, Anthony decided to take

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what Nathan taught him and try to improve it.

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Austin, who was part of the group too, joined up and started helping Anthony make FIFA coins.

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SANAD: They found a way to reverse-engineer the executable to basically have the server

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spit out unlimited coins.

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Then they were selling them to some guy in China.

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JACK: This was working like, really well.

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Anthony and Austin started making good money doing this.

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Because they had hacked into EA and stole source code for FIFA, it made it a lot easier

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for them to reverse-engineer how to hack it.

00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:06.139
This was growing more and more profitable every day.

00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:10.450
They would spend all their time creating FIFA coins and selling them.

00:15:10.450 --> 00:15:15.019
Meanwhile, back at Microsoft, the investigation as to who was selling the Durangos on eBay

00:15:15.019 --> 00:15:16.319
heated up.

00:15:16.319 --> 00:15:20.889
Miles Hawkes, the senior security executive at Microsoft, was making some progress.

00:15:20.889 --> 00:15:26.770
Somehow, they traced Dylan’s eBay account all the way back to his house in Perth, Australia.

00:15:26.770 --> 00:15:29.139
Miles gets on a plane and heads down under.

00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:34.389
DYLAN: [MUSIC] Yeah, he was their private eye, I guess we will say.

00:15:34.389 --> 00:15:41.899
I mean, one day he just ended up at the house of my parents’ and I think I wasn’t there

00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:43.420
at the time.

00:15:43.420 --> 00:15:50.880
He actually came back the next day and I found out, so I was there for this second time.

00:15:50.880 --> 00:15:56.490
He came, he wanted to just lay down they’re not there to prosecute anyone, they’re not

00:15:56.490 --> 00:15:57.610
law enforcement.

00:15:57.610 --> 00:15:59.269
They don’t care too much.

00:15:59.269 --> 00:16:01.480
They just want to know what’s going on.

00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.480
I guess that’s where we kind of opened up.

00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:09.860
Myself and David actually gave them what we knew, what we had, how things were done, how

00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:12.250
people got onto XBox Live.

00:16:12.250 --> 00:16:18.529
He kind of took all this info, went back, and that was really it.

00:16:18.529 --> 00:16:20.829
SKITZO: Miles visited Howdy.

00:16:20.829 --> 00:16:27.370
Howdy basically said that he didn’t do shit.

00:16:27.370 --> 00:16:32.880
I believe he surrendered a kit or two that he had in his garage in plain view.

00:16:32.880 --> 00:16:39.760
Howdy had this weird dream that he was gonna get a job at Microsoft to do what God knows.

00:16:39.760 --> 00:16:47.839
But Howdy claimed that he could offer people up in exchange for a job and Miles said thanks

00:16:47.839 --> 00:16:49.830
for the kits man, gotta go.

00:16:49.830 --> 00:16:55.110
JACK: Around this time back in Delaware, Justin, or MTW, the hacker who got arrested at PAX,

00:16:55.110 --> 00:16:56.770
he was running a major scam operation.

00:16:56.770 --> 00:16:58.879
Here’s what he was up to.

00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:03.660
[MUSIC] When you buy a Cisco router and it goes bad, you can call the support line and

00:17:03.660 --> 00:17:05.850
ask them to do a replacement.

00:17:05.850 --> 00:17:07.540
This is called an RMA.

00:17:07.540 --> 00:17:10.429
Because they want you to get your network back up and running as quickly as possible,

00:17:10.429 --> 00:17:13.159
they send you a replacement router right away.

00:17:13.159 --> 00:17:17.640
You’re supposed to put your old broken router in the box and send it back to them.

00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.860
Justin knew this and figured out a way to trick Cisco into processing an RMA for him

00:17:21.860 --> 00:17:24.670
even though he didn’t have a router to send back.

00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:29.130
Cisco would ship him a brand-new device and he would turn around and sell it.

00:17:29.130 --> 00:17:33.030
This left Cisco high and dry without any returned device.

00:17:33.030 --> 00:17:36.220
He was doing this with the Microsoft surface devices, too.

00:17:36.220 --> 00:17:40.659
Like, he was doing this hundreds of times, making huge amounts of cash, enough to buy

00:17:40.659 --> 00:17:44.909
a BMW Coupe for $60,000.

00:17:44.909 --> 00:17:48.160
Justin was telling David and Dylan and the rest of the crew all about these scams he

00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:49.260
was doing.

00:17:49.260 --> 00:17:52.909
Dylan didn’t seem to really care if Justin was an informant because Dylan was sharing

00:17:52.909 --> 00:17:55.179
tons of information with him anyways.

00:17:55.179 --> 00:17:58.620
To David, the scams proved Justin was still trustworthy.

00:17:58.620 --> 00:18:02.820
The amount of scamming that he was doing was way beyond what the feds should be allowing

00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:05.530
him to do if they were watching him.

00:18:05.530 --> 00:18:10.049
Even if David didn’t trust Justin, it’s better the devil you know than the devil you

00:18:10.049 --> 00:18:11.679
don’t.

00:18:11.679 --> 00:18:15.150
Maybe it’s a good idea to keep an eye on Justin, keep him close.

00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:19.180
David was attending University of Toronto in Canada, but he was planning a trip to the

00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:20.180
US.

00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:25.090
He wanted to go to the annual Defcon conference in Las Vegas, Nevada in the US.

00:18:25.090 --> 00:18:30.320
David told Justin about his plans to go to Vegas and right after that, unknown to David,

00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:33.830
an indictment was created in the US for him.

00:18:33.830 --> 00:18:39.500
[MUSIC] The indictment had sixteen counts of criminal activity including fraud, identity

00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:42.760
theft, and conspiracy to steal trade secrets.

00:18:42.760 --> 00:18:47.809
The indictment listed Sanad, Nathan, and David as co-conspirators.

00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:51.900
The feds seemed to be moving forward with this case but why now?

00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:55.570
Maybe the feds figured out David’s plans to go to the US.

00:18:55.570 --> 00:18:58.590
Maybe it was just time for this operation to crash.

00:18:58.590 --> 00:19:00.900
I don’t know.

00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:06.630
However, a closer look at the indictment does reveal something interesting; there’s another

00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:10.620
person in the indictment only known as Person A.

00:19:10.620 --> 00:19:15.580
A lot of evidence in the [00:20:00] indictment was provided by this Person A, and in fact,

00:19:15.580 --> 00:19:20.340
the indictment even says that Person A did some of the hacking in the group too, which

00:19:20.340 --> 00:19:22.510
means they were part of this crew.

00:19:22.510 --> 00:19:28.850
Now we know for sure there is a snitch among the group, and they were tipping off the feds.

00:19:28.850 --> 00:19:33.600
The indictment said this Person A was a resident of Delaware.

00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:38.370
For some reason though, David cancelled his trip to Vegas and Defcon.

00:19:38.370 --> 00:19:42.289
Maybe he got nervous about crossing borders or maybe some other things in his life took

00:19:42.289 --> 00:19:45.850
precedence, but he just didn’t go.

00:19:45.850 --> 00:19:51.909
There’s a new character that shows up at this point, an eighteen-year-old named Arman.

00:19:51.909 --> 00:19:54.490
Arman lived near Redmond, Washington.

00:19:54.490 --> 00:19:57.500
You know what’s in Redmond, Washington, right?

00:19:57.500 --> 00:19:59.120
Microsoft’s headquarters.

00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:03.410
Arman was extremely fascinated with XBoxes and had been following what’s going on in

00:20:03.410 --> 00:20:04.470
the scene.

00:20:04.470 --> 00:20:08.220
Arman’s mom was dating a guy who worked at Microsoft.

00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:12.539
He’d often come over to Arman’s house after work wearing the Microsoft employee

00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:15.570
badge, and Arman devised a plan.

00:20:15.570 --> 00:20:19.740
He acquired a badge cloner and when his mom’s boyfriend came back, he was able to make a

00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:24.130
duplicate copy of that Microsoft employee badge.

00:20:24.130 --> 00:20:28.940
With a functioning badge to get into the Microsoft building, he decided to go in there and walk

00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:29.940
around.

00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:34.030
To look the part, Arman dressed like a regular employee, wearing clothes with Microsoft logos

00:20:34.030 --> 00:20:36.350
on it, and looking like he belonged.

00:20:36.350 --> 00:20:40.981
He went down into the headquarters in the middle of the day, swiped his badge, and got

00:20:40.981 --> 00:20:42.210
in.

00:20:42.210 --> 00:20:46.940
He first just wandered around, taking in the sights and sounds.

00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:50.000
He was particularly in awe of just being there.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.480
He was in the belly of the beast of the place he obsessed over.

00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:58.789
This was where they made the XBox, and some of his favorite video games were made right

00:20:58.789 --> 00:21:00.050
here in this building.

00:21:00.050 --> 00:21:02.290
It was cool just seeing the place.

00:21:02.290 --> 00:21:06.400
I admit, I’ve been on that campus too, and I felt a sense of awe.

00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:11.029
There’s like, a soccer field right in the middle of campus and free sodas for everyone.

00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:15.470
The sheer brainpower that’s walking around there is extraordinary.

00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:20.380
For about a year, Arman would come and go on the Microsoft campus, becoming familiar

00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:26.640
with it and learning the layout better and better, all while using a rogue employee badge.

00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.710
Arman dreamed about one day working at Microsoft.

00:21:29.710 --> 00:21:35.000
He applied for a position at one of Microsoft’s vendors as a quality assurance tester.

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:40.070
He continued to dress in Microsoft swag and go on campus and wander around the offices.

00:21:40.070 --> 00:21:46.180
Eventually he found the office where the engineers and developers were working on the Durango.

00:21:46.180 --> 00:21:50.289
As he walked through the offices, he spotted one of the actual Durangos.

00:21:50.289 --> 00:21:51.400
Whoa.

00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:57.809
This was a real, authentic, official Microsoft XBox One prototype.

00:21:57.809 --> 00:22:02.040
Arman spent the last year infiltrating this campus, and it was at this moment that he

00:22:02.040 --> 00:22:04.220
knew what to do with his access.

00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:10.220
He waited until the coast was clear, grabbed one of these Durangos he found, shoved it

00:22:10.220 --> 00:22:13.490
in his backpack, and quickly left the building.

00:22:13.490 --> 00:22:14.490
Amazing.

00:22:14.490 --> 00:22:17.559
He got all the way home and unloaded the console.

00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:21.010
He had a fully working authentic Durango now.

00:22:21.010 --> 00:22:24.410
He was absolutely brimming with excitement from the rush of this.

00:22:24.410 --> 00:22:28.300
It’s really hard to contain this kind of excitement; he reached out to Austin, one

00:22:28.300 --> 00:22:32.029
of the members of this XBox Underground, to tell him about it.

00:22:32.029 --> 00:22:35.650
At this point, Austin kind of was done doing things with XBox Underground and was making

00:22:35.650 --> 00:22:38.669
a shift to selling FIFA coins with Anthony.

00:22:38.669 --> 00:22:42.850
Arman told Austin that he had an authentic Durango and he wanted to know if Austin wanted

00:22:42.850 --> 00:22:44.039
one, too.

00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:45.830
Austin asked at what price?

00:22:45.830 --> 00:22:51.200
Arman wanted logins to the XBox Developer Network and a few thousand dollars for it.

00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.110
Austin called up Dave in Ontario and told him about Arman.

00:22:55.110 --> 00:22:58.720
Dave was baffled by this deal but was too curious to turn it down.

00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:00.010
They were put in touch with each other.

00:23:00.010 --> 00:23:05.380
Dave and Austin both agreed to buy one so Arman formed a new plan.

00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:13.190
[MUSIC] In September 2012, Arman gets dressed in his full Microsoft attire and gets a big,

00:23:13.190 --> 00:23:16.390
oversized backpack, and he gets ready to go into the headquarters.

00:23:16.390 --> 00:23:22.720
He waits until about 9:00 p.m., walks up to the building, swipes his badge, and he’s

00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:23.720
in.

00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.000
Business as usual, no problem.

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.560
He knows the place well so he knows where to go to try to look for Durangos.

00:23:28.560 --> 00:23:31.130
He’s walking through the office looking for them.

00:23:31.130 --> 00:23:34.840
He’s getting nervous, he’s getting sweaty palms, he’s looking around a lot.

00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:39.740
He hears footsteps; he dives into a cubicle and waits for the footsteps to go away.

00:23:39.740 --> 00:23:45.799
As soon as the footsteps go away, he scurries up the stairs to the fifth floor where he

00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.169
thinks he can find the Durangos.

00:23:48.169 --> 00:23:51.310
When he opens the door to the fifth floor, it’s totally dark.

00:23:51.310 --> 00:23:52.930
Perfect, he thought.

00:23:52.930 --> 00:23:58.860
He starts walking through the office in the dark, but some motion detectors sensed him

00:23:58.860 --> 00:24:00.920
and the lights flicked right on.

00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:06.530
This spooked him so he goes back into the stairwell and down two flights of stairs.

00:24:06.530 --> 00:24:12.870
He opens the door into the office and wanders around there, walking through [00:25:00] rows

00:24:12.870 --> 00:24:13.870
of cubicles.

00:24:13.870 --> 00:24:18.600
He finally comes across a cubicle with a pair of Durangos in it.

00:24:18.600 --> 00:24:22.049
Sitting on top of one of them is a black, high-heeled shoe.

00:24:22.049 --> 00:24:23.620
He looks around.

00:24:23.620 --> 00:24:24.670
Nobody’s there.

00:24:24.670 --> 00:24:30.559
He grabs both Durangos, jams them in his backpack and takes off for the door, leaving the black

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.750
high-heeled shoe right there on the floor.

00:24:33.750 --> 00:24:40.440
He goes into the lobby, walks to the door, goes outside, finds his car, and drives home.

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:41.909
Success.

00:24:41.909 --> 00:24:46.900
Arman ships the two Durangos to Dave and Austin and gets his cash and logins.

00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:47.900
Awesome, he thought.

00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:53.050
Dave was amazed too, but then Arman got a call from that Microsoft vendor that he applied

00:24:53.050 --> 00:24:56.929
to saying he got the job as a quality assurance tester.

00:24:56.929 --> 00:24:57.929
Whoa.

00:24:57.929 --> 00:25:01.870
I’ll take it, Arman said, and went to work for them.

00:25:01.870 --> 00:25:06.620
Microsoft discovered these three Durangos were now stolen and started investigating.

00:25:06.620 --> 00:25:12.360
[MUSIC] They found some security footage showing Arman leaving the building, and this was enough

00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:15.470
to identify Arman and get him arrested.

00:25:15.470 --> 00:25:20.920
Microsoft wanted the Durangos back really bad, and Arman was only eighteen and was scared

00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.140
of the legal troubles he was facing.

00:25:23.140 --> 00:25:34.160
He begged David and Austin to return the Durangos.

00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.200
Back in Australia, Dylan did some thinking and thought you know what?

00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.410
Maybe it’s time to tell Epic he’s the hacker.

00:25:40.410 --> 00:25:43.820
He called them up and told them hi, I’m the one who hacked you.

00:25:43.820 --> 00:25:44.880
DYLAN: Basically that.

00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:50.500
I actually went back to the IT guy’s, the original IT guy’s Gmail, looked at the phone

00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:55.500
number linked to his account, and I called his personal mobile.

00:25:55.500 --> 00:26:00.430
As a naive kid, I believe I probably said something like oh, I’m the guy who hacked

00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:01.430
you.

00:26:01.430 --> 00:26:04.970
I don’t think they took it too seriously.

00:26:04.970 --> 00:26:07.390
They were like oh, well, they were trying to F with us or something.

00:26:07.390 --> 00:26:14.390
But then I kind of mentioned – it was like no, no, can we sort this out?

00:26:14.390 --> 00:26:20.370
That’s where we made a disclosure; not a responsible disclosure because I can’t be

00:26:20.370 --> 00:26:26.890
a responsible asshole at that point in time, but it was definitely a disclosure nonetheless.

00:26:26.890 --> 00:26:33.710
They actually said – and this was – if they’ll confirm that or not, they’ll say

00:26:33.710 --> 00:26:42.669
the FBI would not help them at all, so they were pretty happy with the fact that we at

00:26:42.669 --> 00:26:46.130
least gave them the information that they wanted all along.

00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:51.510
JACK: Dylan had the audacity to ask for a reward for telling Epic how he hacked into

00:26:51.510 --> 00:26:52.510
them.

00:26:52.510 --> 00:26:54.659
Dylan even gave them his address in Australia.

00:26:54.659 --> 00:26:55.659
DYLAN: Yeah.

00:26:55.659 --> 00:26:58.820
I asked them, I was like – I just said can I have some swag or something?

00:26:58.820 --> 00:27:02.520
I guess I ended up with a poster, a signed poster.

00:27:02.520 --> 00:27:03.520
Yeah.

00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:07.039
Probably the first kind of reward I ever got.

00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.490
It’s still funny because it’s like, we did all these things wrong but we still got

00:27:11.490 --> 00:27:13.340
rewarded in the end.

00:27:13.340 --> 00:27:18.280
JACK: Since that eBay listing, Sanad distanced himself from the group, but he did have the

00:27:18.280 --> 00:27:22.310
Durango software and wanted to see if he could get it working on one of his own computers.

00:27:22.310 --> 00:27:26.610
SANAD: I realized that you can install Durango OS on any type of hardware.

00:27:26.610 --> 00:27:28.909
It didn’t have to be that specific hardware.

00:27:28.909 --> 00:27:33.700
I put it on a Gateway blade server and it loaded completely fine.

00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:38.470
JACK: This was exciting for Sanad, to be able to play around on the XBox One long before

00:27:38.470 --> 00:27:39.710
it came out for the public?

00:27:39.710 --> 00:27:40.710
So cool.

00:27:40.710 --> 00:27:47.370
SANAD: There was always one problem with the counterfeit Durangos; the video driver from

00:27:47.370 --> 00:27:53.010
the Durango OS for some weird reason didn’t work properly with the cards that you’d

00:27:53.010 --> 00:27:55.529
buy from retail.

00:27:55.529 --> 00:27:58.149
The picture was always shifted.

00:27:58.149 --> 00:28:00.890
There was no way to center it.

00:28:00.890 --> 00:28:07.800
I tried to mess with it a little bit ‘cause it was based off of Windows 8 at the time.

00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:11.690
I even tried taking the drivers from Windows 8 and popping them in there, trying to see

00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:12.929
if I could fix it.

00:28:12.929 --> 00:28:16.010
[00:30:00] No matter what I did, it stayed that way.

00:28:16.010 --> 00:28:21.070
JACK: Sanad kept tinkering with this video issue and is still playing on those dev kits,

00:28:21.070 --> 00:28:24.320
playing stolen games and a lot of retail games, too.

00:28:24.320 --> 00:28:28.440
At this point he actually has a massive collection of gaming consoles and games.

00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:32.020
SANAD: One day out of the blue, somebody on IRC messages me.

00:28:32.020 --> 00:28:37.669
I can’t remember his handle but he was talking to me about stuff.

00:28:37.669 --> 00:28:40.399
I had my guard up.

00:28:40.399 --> 00:28:44.130
This guy messages me and he starts talking about Durango stuff.

00:28:44.130 --> 00:28:49.799
[MUSIC] I thought maybe he was trying to get the software off me to make his own Durango.

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:55.130
He was like no, no, no, I already have the software; I got it from Nathan.

00:28:55.130 --> 00:28:58.320
JACK: Remember, Nathan was raided and arrested earlier.

00:28:58.320 --> 00:29:00.540
SANAD: I’m like okay.

00:29:00.540 --> 00:29:04.299
Then he’s like, oh, Nathan’s sitting with me.

00:29:04.299 --> 00:29:13.419
I’m like okay, ‘cause he had a Baltimore IP address.

00:29:13.419 --> 00:29:19.440
I kind of was still weirded out by it but then he started talking about some internal

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:24.110
XBox 360 boot loader that got leaked and he even sent me the file.

00:29:24.110 --> 00:29:28.419
Then he tried to explain what it was but he really didn’t know what he was talking about.

00:29:28.419 --> 00:29:32.970
I guess he had somebody else hop on and explain it as quote, unquote, “Nathan,” and then

00:29:32.970 --> 00:29:35.190
it made more sense to what it was.

00:29:35.190 --> 00:29:38.730
Then I’m like let me see the picture of your Durango.

00:29:38.730 --> 00:29:44.730
He takes a picture with – he wrote out his alias and a timestamp on it.

00:29:44.730 --> 00:29:50.770
I look at the screen and the one problem that we could never fix was apparently working

00:29:50.770 --> 00:29:53.809
for him which was the video issue.

00:29:53.809 --> 00:29:58.179
I asked him about it and he’s like oh, I figured out a way to reassign the drivers

00:29:58.179 --> 00:30:01.059
and blah, blah, blah.

00:30:01.059 --> 00:30:02.890
To me it just seemed off.

00:30:02.890 --> 00:30:08.570
My response to him was I think you’re a UC.

00:30:08.570 --> 00:30:10.809
He just starts going off on me.

00:30:10.809 --> 00:30:14.860
He’s like you think I’m an undercover?

00:30:14.860 --> 00:30:17.160
This, that, whatever.

00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.659
I mean, let’s be realistic; if I say to somebody, I think you’re a UC, how many

00:30:20.659 --> 00:30:25.570
people are gonna know that stands for undercover?

00:30:25.570 --> 00:30:26.830
I was just like alright.

00:30:26.830 --> 00:30:31.360
I’m like, this dude’s totally a cop so I stop talking to him.

00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:32.980
JACK: A couple of days go by.

00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:39.010
He doesn’t hear anything from that guy anymore but then comes a day that Sanad will always

00:30:39.010 --> 00:30:40.010
remember.

00:30:40.010 --> 00:30:43.039
SANAD: It was December 4th, 2012 at 5:30 in the morning.

00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:49.929
[MUSIC] I have insomnia issues so I was taking sleeping meds at the time.

00:30:49.929 --> 00:30:53.730
For some weird reason they didn’t kick in until like 3:30 in the morning.

00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:58.330
Two hours later, I wake up to loud banging on my door.

00:30:58.330 --> 00:30:59.750
I’m just like who is it?

00:30:59.750 --> 00:31:02.659
They’re like, it’s the police, open up, open up.

00:31:02.659 --> 00:31:04.399
I’m thinking police?

00:31:04.399 --> 00:31:08.870
Maybe the house is on fire or something, maybe something happened or something, you know

00:31:08.870 --> 00:31:09.870
what I mean?

00:31:09.870 --> 00:31:15.760
I go to open my door and they had kicked and banged it so hard that the doorknob jammed.

00:31:15.760 --> 00:31:18.940
I’m just like, I can’t open it.

00:31:18.940 --> 00:31:20.419
They’re like, stand back.

00:31:20.419 --> 00:31:23.020
Next thing I know the door flings open.

00:31:23.020 --> 00:31:25.860
I see a shield and then guns pointed at my face.

00:31:25.860 --> 00:31:31.370
I’m in my boxers, mind you, so I just put my hands up in the air instantly.

00:31:31.370 --> 00:31:34.770
JACK: It’s the FBI.

00:31:34.770 --> 00:31:39.789
Now, Sanad is Middle Eastern and he thought all this is probably for the hacking but he

00:31:39.789 --> 00:31:41.750
didn’t want to admit anything before he knew for sure.

00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:43.519
SANAD: They pull me outside and it’s freezing cold.

00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.130
Like I said, it’s in December.

00:31:46.130 --> 00:31:51.350
My neighbors are driving by thinking that I killed the president or something because

00:31:51.350 --> 00:31:53.820
of how many FBI agents they sent to my house.

00:31:53.820 --> 00:31:55.640
It had to have been at least four dozen.

00:31:55.640 --> 00:32:00.100
There was close to fifty agents there.

00:32:00.100 --> 00:32:01.659
It was insane.

00:32:01.659 --> 00:32:05.090
I’m like what’s going on?

00:32:05.090 --> 00:32:07.560
What’s going on?

00:32:07.560 --> 00:32:12.330
The Special Agent in charge was like oh, we’ve gotta finish clearing the house and then we’ll

00:32:12.330 --> 00:32:15.789
pull you back in and we’ll talk to you.

00:32:15.789 --> 00:32:16.950
I’m like, okay.

00:32:16.950 --> 00:32:20.840
They pull us in; it was me and my dad which by the way, my dad’s like, he’s not dark

00:32:20.840 --> 00:32:23.770
skinned but he’s got a really tan complexion.

00:32:23.770 --> 00:32:25.850
He looked like he was a ghost.

00:32:25.850 --> 00:32:28.090
He was just white.

00:32:28.090 --> 00:32:31.290
They have him in the family room and me in the kitchen.

00:32:31.290 --> 00:32:34.429
They’re asking my dad, you know, your son took the project Durango.

00:32:34.429 --> 00:32:36.500
My dad’s like, the truck?

00:32:36.500 --> 00:32:38.980
He had no idea what the hell they were talking about.

00:32:38.980 --> 00:32:42.909
They were like your son stole millions and millions of dollars and this, that, and whatever.

00:32:42.909 --> 00:32:44.470
My dad’s like no, he didn’t.

00:32:44.470 --> 00:32:48.330
He’s like, I would know if my son had millions and millions of dollars.

00:32:48.330 --> 00:32:51.779
I told the agent I’m like, he doesn’t know anything.

00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:53.240
Stop bothering him.

00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:57.169
You guys aren’t gonna get anything out of him ‘cause he really doesn’t know anything.

00:32:57.169 --> 00:32:59.240
They stop questioning him.

00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:05.620
Then they go to me and they’re like alright, they’re like, we want to show you something.

00:33:05.620 --> 00:33:10.730
He pulls out a little manilla folder and the first thing he pulls out is a picture of the

00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:11.730
Durango.

00:33:11.730 --> 00:33:16.179
I’m like okay, well, he probably [00:35:00] obviously saw that on eBay or something.

00:33:16.179 --> 00:33:20.591
Then he starts talking about Epic Games and Valve, and all this, that, and whatever.

00:33:20.591 --> 00:33:24.150
Then he pulls out chat logs between me and other people.

00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:27.590
That’s when I realized somebody set us up.

00:33:27.590 --> 00:33:32.059
JACK: Now remember, Nathan was also raided by the FBI.

00:33:32.059 --> 00:33:36.169
You might think that all these chat logs were something they took from Nathan’s computers.

00:33:36.169 --> 00:33:40.269
SANAD: No, they had logs from dating way before Nathan.

00:33:40.269 --> 00:33:43.000
JACK: This was not something Nathan would have had.

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:46.639
It would have been someone who was around much earlier than that.

00:33:46.639 --> 00:33:51.120
Sanad knew that someone in their circle had to have been an informant tipping off the

00:33:51.120 --> 00:33:56.600
FBI, providing chat logs and screenshots to them, giving up real names and locations for

00:33:56.600 --> 00:33:58.600
people. Sanad was pissed.

00:33:58.600 --> 00:34:03.540
SANAD: The level of anxiety was through the roof.

00:34:03.540 --> 00:34:07.500
It was just so much going on.

00:34:07.500 --> 00:34:12.800
These guys with masks came in the house and went right to my room.

00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.840
It was insane.

00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.620
The only time I’ve ever seen anything like that was in the movies.

00:34:19.620 --> 00:34:23.490
JACK: The FBI began confiscating everything from Sanad.

00:34:23.490 --> 00:34:25.540
He had a lot of stuff, too.

00:34:25.540 --> 00:34:28.970
First the FBI started taking all of the XBox dev kits from Sanad.

00:34:28.970 --> 00:34:32.950
SANAD: There was quite a bit, probably around twenty of them.

00:34:32.950 --> 00:34:36.940
JACK: Jeez, that’s a lot of dev kits.

00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:40.740
He had three retail XBoxes too, and a ton of other games and consoles.

00:34:40.740 --> 00:34:46.600
SANAD: Yeah, they took a Dreamcast, they took a Nintendo 64, they took – I had a binder

00:34:46.600 --> 00:34:52.580
with a whole bunch of internal Microsoft disks and internal Sony disks and stuff like that

00:34:52.580 --> 00:34:53.810
that they took.

00:34:53.810 --> 00:34:56.530
There was a whole bunch of miscellaneous stuff they took.

00:34:56.530 --> 00:35:02.070
They got so lazy or tired or whatever of writing stuff down that they started labeling stuff

00:35:02.070 --> 00:35:06.150
like ‘bag of microchips,’ ‘bag of CDs.’

00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:07.770
There was just so much stuff.

00:35:07.770 --> 00:35:11.260
They were literally there for like, five hours clearing up everything.

00:35:11.260 --> 00:35:15.240
My seizure list was four pages hand-written.

00:35:15.240 --> 00:35:21.460
One of the agents goes oh, my buddy does this thing where he gets all the old Sega Genesis

00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:25.500
games and stuff like that, and he plays them.

00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:27.420
He has a whole bunch on one thing.

00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:31.530
I’m like yeah, those are emulators and ROMs and I’m pretty sure that’s piracy.

00:35:31.530 --> 00:35:36.050
Then the agent in charge was like hey, we’re not talking about that right now.

00:35:36.050 --> 00:35:41.000
I’m looking at him like, so it’s okay if you guys do it but as soon as somebody

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.330
else does it, it’s not okay?

00:35:43.330 --> 00:35:45.450
I was a little ticked off.

00:35:45.450 --> 00:35:51.030
I was having anxiety and I was taking Klonopin at the time for my anxiety.

00:35:51.030 --> 00:35:53.180
He literally wouldn’t give me my medication.

00:35:53.180 --> 00:35:56.030
He sat the pill bottle in front of him and said these could be anything.

00:35:56.030 --> 00:35:58.350
JACK: They also found some drugs that Sanad had.

00:35:58.350 --> 00:36:02.050
SANAD: Yeah, I had some pot.

00:36:02.050 --> 00:36:07.490
The agent pulls my bowl out and brings it to me and he’s like what’s in this?

00:36:07.490 --> 00:36:09.000
I said pot.

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.690
He goes, I’m gonna have it tested.

00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:14.540
I’m like, okay.

00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:19.910
He calls up the local narcotics people and they come and they scrape a little off it

00:36:19.910 --> 00:36:21.290
and he’s like yeah, it’s pot.

00:36:21.290 --> 00:36:23.660
He literally just left everything where it was.

00:36:23.660 --> 00:36:26.970
He left the pot and the bowl right on my desk when they left.

00:36:26.970 --> 00:36:31.620
JACK: Sanad smoked cigarettes and weed but wasn’t really into any other drugs.

00:36:31.620 --> 00:36:33.830
All this was just on a casual and small scale.

00:36:33.830 --> 00:36:37.980
I don’t know if the police just overlooked it or didn’t care, or felt sorry for him

00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:40.580
but yeah, they left the pot.

00:36:40.580 --> 00:36:44.160
After the FBI finished seizing everything, they didn’t take him to jail.

00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:48.220
They let him stay home and said they’ll follow up with him later for next steps.

00:36:48.220 --> 00:36:53.340
They left a search warrant with Sanad to keep and he wanted to show the others this search

00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:54.340
warrant.

00:36:54.340 --> 00:37:00.450
SANAD: I posted it on Facebook and Dylan saw it and decided to dox the Special Agent in

00:37:00.450 --> 00:37:04.740
charge, and the judge from Newark that signed the search warrant.

00:37:04.740 --> 00:37:07.350
He put a hit out on both of them.

00:37:07.350 --> 00:37:10.940
He put a hit out on some forum on the Special Agent in charge and the judge.

00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:17.790
I don’t know if it was a joke or you know, but still, it made me look really, really

00:37:17.790 --> 00:37:18.790
bad.

00:37:18.790 --> 00:37:25.100
DYLAN: I went about discovering who they were, their personal information.

00:37:25.100 --> 00:37:32.410
Yeah, I probably did dox them a bit because I believe I actually posted a text file with

00:37:32.410 --> 00:37:33.410
their information.

00:37:33.410 --> 00:37:37.860
JACK: Dylan did talk about putting a hit on the agents but this was just some sick joke

00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:39.700
that this young kid did.

00:37:39.700 --> 00:37:41.180
Nothing ever came of it.

00:37:41.180 --> 00:37:46.250
DYLAN: As far as federal agents went, that was a stupid thing for me to say, but I did

00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:47.250
actually say it, yeah.

00:37:47.250 --> 00:37:51.370
JACK: You kind of have this attitude of when the shit gets bad, you kind of just…

00:37:51.370 --> 00:37:53.400
DYLAN: Dig the hole deeper.

00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:59.790
Yeah, that used to be the general way I dealt with things, I think.

00:37:59.790 --> 00:38:01.150
I was a naïve kid.

00:38:01.150 --> 00:38:09.940
I think it kind of shows how careless I was, how out there I was.

00:38:09.940 --> 00:38:14.880
JACK: [MUSIC] When a computer experiences a [00:40:00] kernel panic, there’s no telling

00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:15.880
what it might do.

00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:16.880
It might crash.

00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.880
It might corrupt files.

00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:18.880
It might reboot.

00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:20.120
It might not do anything.

00:38:20.120 --> 00:38:24.670
But when Dylan would have a kernel panic, you couldn’t predict what he would do, either.

00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:30.430
Despite all of this going on, Dylan was still hacking into places everywhere because it’s

00:38:30.430 --> 00:38:34.281
an absolute thrill to get into places you’re not supposed to get into and grab stuff you’re

00:38:34.281 --> 00:38:37.450
not supposed to see, and play games you’re not supposed to play.

00:38:37.450 --> 00:38:44.220
One night, Dylan, still only seventeen years old, was focused on trying to hack into a

00:38:44.220 --> 00:38:45.220
game studio.

00:38:45.220 --> 00:38:49.380
His late-night hacking sessions were typical and this one lasted all the way to when the

00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:51.500
sun started to come up the next day.

00:38:51.500 --> 00:38:58.880
DYLAN: I noticed oh, it’s pretty early in the morning and there’s police outside the

00:38:58.880 --> 00:38:59.880
house.

00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:02.410
[MUSIC] I guess this panic set in.

00:39:02.410 --> 00:39:04.650
I was like, shit.

00:39:04.650 --> 00:39:08.850
There was at least a dozen armed police.

00:39:08.850 --> 00:39:14.670
They were armed; they weren’t just normal police officers so I knew shit, something’s

00:39:14.670 --> 00:39:15.670
up.

00:39:15.670 --> 00:39:19.690
JACK: It’s always so weird to me to hear that hackers get this huge army coming after

00:39:19.690 --> 00:39:20.690
them.

00:39:20.690 --> 00:39:22.830
DYLAN: I think it’s still even to the day, you’re a hacker.

00:39:22.830 --> 00:39:27.840
Obviously, you’re a very dangerous person.

00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:31.650
JACK: The police have their weapons drawn and start approaching the house.

00:39:31.650 --> 00:39:36.290
DYLAN: I realized this is game-over.

00:39:36.290 --> 00:39:44.740
I powered off as many machines as I could, hid one of my laptops inside the roof cavity.

00:39:44.740 --> 00:39:51.380
I was like oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck.

00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:54.290
They initially knocked.

00:39:54.290 --> 00:40:00.530
They were actually about to ram the door but one of my parents actually opened it, I believe,

00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:06.840
to which they quickly searched the entire house to make sure it was all clear.

00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:08.600
They apprehended me.

00:40:08.600 --> 00:40:13.220
Yeah, so then we ended up sitting down.

00:40:13.220 --> 00:40:19.770
They wanted to – they told me basically what it’s for.

00:40:19.770 --> 00:40:22.110
I went, okay.

00:40:22.110 --> 00:40:24.760
I was very quiet to them.

00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:27.680
I didn’t really have anything to say.

00:40:27.680 --> 00:40:33.390
I guess I was even more maybe arrogant, maybe you could say, towards them.

00:40:33.390 --> 00:40:38.910
It took them a good – I’d say it was a good several hours they spent seizing everything.

00:40:38.910 --> 00:40:45.640
Basically, it was any hardware at first, followed by any documentation.

00:40:45.640 --> 00:40:51.600
They took school bags; they took whatever they could.

00:40:51.600 --> 00:40:58.021
I actually purchased a few servers at auction which I didn’t power these up yet, but when

00:40:58.021 --> 00:41:03.450
I actually got them, they had their hard drives but no RAM.

00:41:03.450 --> 00:41:06.290
To this day I have no idea if they had anything on them.

00:41:06.290 --> 00:41:09.430
All I know was they came from the Ministry of Defense.

00:41:09.430 --> 00:41:14.360
It was the Department of Defense’s [inaudible].

00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.810
They had their asset stickers there.

00:41:16.810 --> 00:41:19.070
It didn’t look good.

00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:29.160
The guy that’s being done for X, Y, and Z to do with IT happens to have these military

00:41:29.160 --> 00:41:30.330
servers.

00:41:30.330 --> 00:41:35.400
JACK: Dylan had three XBox dev kits, one retail XBox.

00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.460
They took his Blackberry, two MacBooks, an iMac.

00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:42.880
DYLAN: Yeah, then my actual PC itself.

00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.050
Quite a lot was taken.

00:41:45.050 --> 00:41:50.840
I think we estimated about probably $50,000, a hundred grand maybe worth of hardware.

00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:55.030
JACK: You might be wondering how Dylan could afford all this stuff at seventeen.

00:41:55.030 --> 00:42:00.040
I wondered this too, and Dylan didn’t admit publically to me how he acquired the money.

00:42:00.040 --> 00:42:04.060
My guess is that Dylan did things outside of hacking and got away from his computer

00:42:04.060 --> 00:42:08.940
from time to time and figured out a way to make money like other rebellious seventeen-year-olds

00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:10.260
would.

00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:13.990
The police took Dylan down to the station to be processed.

00:42:13.990 --> 00:42:17.060
They tried to get a recorded confession from him while he was there.

00:42:17.060 --> 00:42:18.610
DYLAN: I believe they asked are you gonna talk?

00:42:18.610 --> 00:42:21.050
I just didn’t even look at them.

00:42:21.050 --> 00:42:23.980
I didn’t say anything, didn’t look at them.

00:42:23.980 --> 00:42:26.990
JACK: He didn’t really cooperate that well with the police.

00:42:26.990 --> 00:42:29.340
DYLAN: I think I was pissed off, actually.

00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:35.160
I think I was more pissed off that I was caught.

00:42:35.160 --> 00:42:41.701
As naïve as it sounds, I think it was just we thought we’d get caught but then when

00:42:41.701 --> 00:42:45.800
we did get caught it was a bit of a surprise.

00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:51.360
I don’t think it was the sort of surprise that someone who’s scared; it was sort of

00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.100
surprises well, finally.

00:42:54.100 --> 00:42:57.930
JACK: He knew he went too far and this day was coming.

00:42:57.930 --> 00:43:01.500
I think at this point he just wanted this whole thing to be over with.

00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:07.300
DYLAN: Honestly, I think that was really where it’s at because we did so much that we just

00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:08.300
wanted it over.

00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:11.120
There was no easy way out.

00:43:11.120 --> 00:43:15.680
Everyone had that kind of attitude; how do we [00:45:00] make our exit ‘cause we’re

00:43:15.680 --> 00:43:18.060
too loud. Everyone knows.

00:43:18.060 --> 00:43:19.060
How do we exit?

00:43:19.060 --> 00:43:22.470
JACK: The police arrested Dylan and would keep him there unless he paid his bail.

00:43:22.470 --> 00:43:32.150
DYLAN: Yeah, so as soon as I was released on bail, on minor reconnaissance, basically,

00:43:32.150 --> 00:43:37.080
I actually went straight to the Apple store and tweeted from one of their Macs that I

00:43:37.080 --> 00:43:40.680
was arrested and raided.

00:43:40.680 --> 00:43:43.140
You think you’d learn, right, after getting arrested.

00:43:43.140 --> 00:43:44.960
No, it went from there.

00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:49.730
It was like no, okay, I’m just gonna basically tweet about it.

00:43:49.730 --> 00:43:51.250
I was like hey, I got raided.

00:43:51.250 --> 00:43:56.080
JACK: This arrest scared Dylan and he stopped hacking for a while after that.

00:43:56.080 --> 00:43:58.550
He came home to absolutely no computers.

00:43:58.550 --> 00:44:02.360
The police even found the one hiding in his ceiling so he just spent some time thinking

00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:06.610
about this whole thing for a while.

00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:14.080
[MUSIC] Meanwhile, back in Canada, Dave is still attending University of Toronto and

00:44:14.080 --> 00:44:16.080
still doing some hacking.

00:44:16.080 --> 00:44:18.400
He had a Volkswagen Golf R at the time.

00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:19.690
He loved that car.

00:44:19.690 --> 00:44:21.610
He souped it up a lot, too.

00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:22.610
It looked slick.

00:44:22.610 --> 00:44:26.000
He wanted to buy a new bumper for it, make it look even cooler.

00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:30.830
He found a place in the states who was willing to sell it to him but for some reason, they

00:44:30.830 --> 00:44:33.410
wouldn’t ship to Canada.

00:44:33.410 --> 00:44:36.510
Justin offered to have it shipped to his house.

00:44:36.510 --> 00:44:38.520
Dave was paranoid about entering the US.

00:44:38.520 --> 00:44:41.990
He planned many trips there but cancelled them last minute.

00:44:41.990 --> 00:44:45.540
But for some reason, he decided this time he’s going to go through with it.

00:44:45.540 --> 00:44:49.500
David liked this plan; they would ship the bumper to Justin’s house and David would

00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:54.640
drive eight hours down to Delaware and pick up the bumper, grab a bite to eat with Justin,

00:44:54.640 --> 00:44:55.650
drive back.

00:44:55.650 --> 00:44:59.560
David’s father was also in on the plan so they could take turns driving.

00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:02.520
David and his father get the family car ready and off they go.

00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:07.320
They head south from Toronto and go across the bridge into New York State.

00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.240
They have to go through a border patrol checkpoint.

00:45:10.240 --> 00:45:12.670
They stop the car at the checkpoint.

00:45:12.670 --> 00:45:16.680
The guard there takes their driver’s license and looks at it.

00:45:16.680 --> 00:45:19.150
They run it through the computer.

00:45:19.150 --> 00:45:24.670
After a few minutes the guard comes back to the car and says what’s Xenon?

00:45:24.670 --> 00:45:28.400
Xenon was David’s hacker name.

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:33.440
This was his online name, his Twitter name, forum handles, and so much more was connected

00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:34.740
to this name.

00:45:34.740 --> 00:45:36.450
David’s heart sank.

00:45:36.450 --> 00:45:38.000
The blood rushed out of his face.

00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:41.200
He was puzzled that this checkpoint guard knew this.

00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:45.710
He tried to explain to the guard that it’s nothing and he tried to play it cool.

00:45:45.710 --> 00:45:50.670
But before he knew it, a few men in dark uniforms started approaching the car.

00:45:50.670 --> 00:45:55.360
David’s dad said something’s wrong.

00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:59.360
Step out of the vehicle, one agent shouted and David and his father were whisked into

00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:00.520
a detention room.

00:46:00.520 --> 00:46:05.120
They told his father that his son was not coming back to Canada for a long time.

00:46:05.120 --> 00:46:09.590
His father was sad and couldn’t believe this, and put his head in his hands.

00:46:09.590 --> 00:46:15.730
David tried to say it’s gonna be okay dad, but his father couldn’t hear him.

00:46:15.730 --> 00:46:20.020
David was arrested by the US police and taken to jail.

00:46:20.020 --> 00:46:23.970
David was taken into custody in a jail in Delaware and there he took a plea deal to

00:46:23.970 --> 00:46:27.530
help educate the companies he hacked to show them how he got in.

00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:32.380
David was cooperative and helpful at explaining how these exploits were used.

00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:35.980
Prosecutors were even a little impressed with how much knowledge he had as a young man to

00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:37.600
be able to do all this.

00:46:37.600 --> 00:46:41.120
Meanwhile over in New Jersey, Sanad is just trying to live his life.

00:46:41.120 --> 00:46:45.760
SANAD: It was the end of September and I get a phone call.

00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:48.850
[MUSIC] It was some agent from Newark.

00:46:48.850 --> 00:46:53.190
He’s like hey, are you gonna be home tomorrow as October 1st?

00:46:53.190 --> 00:46:54.530
I was like yeah, why?

00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:58.561
He’s like oh, we’re just gonna come bring back some of your stuff that we didn’t need

00:46:58.561 --> 00:47:00.440
for the case and blah, blah, blah.

00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:03.090
I’m just like alright, well you guys are in Newark.

00:47:03.090 --> 00:47:04.420
I could totally come pick it up.

00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:06.160
He’s like no, no, it’s no big deal.

00:47:06.160 --> 00:47:08.890
We’ll come tomorrow and we’ll drop it off.

00:47:08.890 --> 00:47:11.050
He’s like, that’s our job.

00:47:11.050 --> 00:47:12.350
I’m like, okay.

00:47:12.350 --> 00:47:16.040
8:30 in the morning, my door’s getting banged on.

00:47:16.040 --> 00:47:18.070
They’re like arrest warrant, arrest warrant.

00:47:18.070 --> 00:47:22.060
They sent like, fifteen, twenty agents to come arrest me when I would have gladly went

00:47:22.060 --> 00:47:27.120
over there and they could have just arrested me, like, self-turned-in.

00:47:27.120 --> 00:47:29.780
I don’t know why they went through all that trouble.

00:47:29.780 --> 00:47:35.000
It almost seems like they wanted to go out for the ride.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:36.920
They lock me up that day.

00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:39.970
They bring me to Delaware to arraign me.

00:47:39.970 --> 00:47:44.070
JACK: Sanad absolutely hated being in jail and asked to be let out on bail.

00:47:44.070 --> 00:47:47.110
He’d rather be put on probation or anything.

00:47:47.110 --> 00:47:48.780
He wanted to be out of there.

00:47:48.780 --> 00:47:52.040
They told him if they let him out, he’d have to be under strict conditions.

00:47:52.040 --> 00:47:55.360
SANAD: At the time I was like, I don’t care what the conditions are.

00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:57.210
Just get me out of here.

00:47:57.210 --> 00:47:59.680
JACK: They agree and let him out on probation.

00:47:59.680 --> 00:48:03.500
SANAD: I meet up with the probation officer in Delaware.

00:48:03.500 --> 00:48:07.480
He’s like, you’re gonna be on an ankle monitor, it’s gonna be GPS monitored.

00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:11.540
We’re not gonna do the phone line one ‘cause we want to know where you are at all times.

00:48:11.540 --> 00:48:16.590
There’s no [00:50:00] computer access, no internet access, no internet capable devices,

00:48:16.590 --> 00:48:20.110
no video games, blah, blah, blah.

00:48:20.110 --> 00:48:25.080
He’s like, you’re gonna submit to drug tests and this, that, whatever.

00:48:25.080 --> 00:48:26.080
I’m like, okay.

00:48:26.080 --> 00:48:29.920
JACK: Sanad was happy to be out of jail but quickly lost himself.

00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:37.820
SANAD: [MUSIC] Little did I know how hard it would be to completely go from having internet

00:48:37.820 --> 00:48:40.370
in your life to not having it at all.

00:48:40.370 --> 00:48:46.470
JACK: He wasn’t even allowed to have cable TV since that could also be used for internet.

00:48:46.470 --> 00:48:50.120
He got real bored, real quick.

00:48:50.120 --> 00:48:53.880
Somehow during this time, he finally got a copy of the indictment that was against him.

00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:59.080
SANAD: I get a copy of the indictment and I start reading about Person A from Wilmington,

00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:00.080
Delaware.

00:49:00.080 --> 00:49:05.250
We all only knew one person from Wilmington, Delaware; Justin.

00:49:05.250 --> 00:49:10.730
JACK: Sanad was pretty upset that Justin would do that but at the same time, he wasn’t

00:49:10.730 --> 00:49:14.740
surprised since the whole incident at PAX, he’s always been very suspicious.

00:49:14.740 --> 00:49:18.260
But this solved the mystery of when he was raided that so many chat logs were in his

00:49:18.260 --> 00:49:19.440
file.

00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:24.040
But combine this with the boredom of his probation conditions, things weren’t going well for

00:49:24.040 --> 00:49:25.040
Sanad.

00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:28.650
SANAD: I was literally a prisoner in my home.

00:49:28.650 --> 00:49:30.190
It was insane.

00:49:30.190 --> 00:49:34.940
I started losing it a little bit.

00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:39.000
I got to the point where I just didn’t even want to charge the ankle monitor anymore,

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.010
and I was just sick and tired of it.

00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:43.330
I started losing it.

00:49:43.330 --> 00:49:47.050
My friends were afraid to come see me.

00:49:47.050 --> 00:49:53.240
I got so bored I couldn’t live with myself anymore.

00:49:53.240 --> 00:49:55.200
I was just like you know what?

00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:57.450
I’m just not gonna charge this bracelet anymore.

00:49:57.450 --> 00:49:58.570
I stopped charging it.

00:49:58.570 --> 00:50:01.350
The first time, I get a phone call at like 3:00 in the morning.

00:50:01.350 --> 00:50:02.850
It’s my pre-trial officer.

00:50:02.850 --> 00:50:06.980
She’s like, you need to plug your bracelet in and charge it up right now.

00:50:06.980 --> 00:50:08.890
I’m like alright, whatever.

00:50:08.890 --> 00:50:10.310
I charge it.

00:50:10.310 --> 00:50:13.840
A few days later I decide to stop charging it again.

00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:20.070
Then April 1st of 2014, the phone starts ringing early in the morning.

00:50:20.070 --> 00:50:23.700
I’m like, who the hell’s calling at this time?

00:50:23.700 --> 00:50:30.340
I go to the family room, I pick up the phone, and this one guy’s like yeah, we’re the

00:50:30.340 --> 00:50:32.540
US Marshalls in the New Jersey State Police.

00:50:32.540 --> 00:50:35.970
We have an arrest warrant for Mr. Nesheiwat.

00:50:35.970 --> 00:50:37.310
I’m like, it’s April 1st; somebody’s gotta be playing a trick on me.

00:50:37.310 --> 00:50:40.270
I look out the window and there was a US Marshall standing right there.

00:50:40.270 --> 00:50:48.020
I open the door, he just walks right in, and he pulls out the chains and everything.

00:50:48.020 --> 00:50:50.420
He’s like, you’re coming with us.

00:50:50.420 --> 00:50:53.280
JACK: During Sanad’s probation, David was still in jail.

00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:58.230
The police put David in the back of a van to drive him to court to talk to a judge,

00:50:58.230 --> 00:50:59.790
some pre-hearing thing.

00:50:59.790 --> 00:51:05.680
But there’s someone else in the back seat too, a twenty-year-old white guy; lanky, freckled,

00:51:05.680 --> 00:51:07.230
long hair.

00:51:07.230 --> 00:51:08.490
David recognized him.

00:51:08.490 --> 00:51:09.900
It was Nathan.

00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:15.270
Nathan had been arrested too and now all three of them were in custody facing court appearances.

00:51:15.270 --> 00:51:19.220
This was the first time David met Nathan in person and here they are in the back of a

00:51:19.220 --> 00:51:21.190
police van.

00:51:21.190 --> 00:51:23.490
After Nathan was raided, he was done with hacking.

00:51:23.490 --> 00:51:27.410
It freaked him out and now that he was arrested on the way to court, this freaked him out

00:51:27.410 --> 00:51:28.600
all over again.

00:51:28.600 --> 00:51:30.640
He wasn’t taking this well.

00:51:30.640 --> 00:51:33.310
David told him that it was Dylan who took this all too far.

00:51:33.310 --> 00:51:35.120
Dylan’s an asshole.

00:51:35.120 --> 00:51:39.300
David even told Nathan you can rat on me or do whatever because you don’t deserve this

00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:40.300
shit.

00:51:40.300 --> 00:51:42.430
Let’s just do what we gotta do and get outta here.

00:51:42.430 --> 00:51:46.070
David felt bad for Nathan because of all the people in the group, Nathan was the least

00:51:46.070 --> 00:51:49.510
involved and had one of the best futures ahead of him.

00:51:49.510 --> 00:51:54.810
The three of them would go in front of a judge many times, this time with just a set bail.

00:51:54.810 --> 00:51:58.790
David opted out of getting out on bail but Nathan did want out.

00:51:58.790 --> 00:52:01.020
The judge did grant him bail.

00:52:01.020 --> 00:52:03.990
Nathan paid his bail and went to live with his parents in Maryland.

00:52:03.990 --> 00:52:09.160
He had to wear an ankle monitor at all times and report his whereabouts frequently.

00:52:09.160 --> 00:52:12.430
While living there, Nathan grew increasingly paranoid.

00:52:12.430 --> 00:52:13.430
He was scared.

00:52:13.430 --> 00:52:15.040
He didn’t want to go to prison.

00:52:15.040 --> 00:52:17.570
He thought he wasn’t tough enough for it.

00:52:17.570 --> 00:52:19.990
He thought he was going to get raped or murdered there.

00:52:19.990 --> 00:52:25.220
It was just too much to bear the thought of it, so on June 16 he clipped off his ankle

00:52:25.220 --> 00:52:27.860
monitor and made a run for it.

00:52:27.860 --> 00:52:34.060
[MUSIC] He paid a friend to drive him four hundred miles north to the border of Canada.

00:52:34.060 --> 00:52:36.840
There they would try to smuggle him into Canada somehow.

00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:40.730
They drove seven hours to the border and they arrived at the checkpoint.

00:52:40.730 --> 00:52:47.440
They tried to act as inconspicuous as possible; just gonna pass right on through.

00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:51.240
But for some reason the car was stopped by the guards at the checkpoint.

00:52:51.240 --> 00:52:54.490
They’re just a few hundred feet from the border.

00:52:54.490 --> 00:52:56.660
Canada was so close.

00:52:56.660 --> 00:53:00.540
Border guards weren’t letting them in though, and started coming to the car.

00:53:00.540 --> 00:53:04.750
Nathan panicked and got out of the car and started running for the border.

00:53:04.750 --> 00:53:08.410
He was on the bridge and on the other side of the river was Canada.

00:53:08.410 --> 00:53:11.080
If only he could get there, everything would be okay.

00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:15.180
He ran as fast as he could, even [00:55:00] contemplating jumping off the bridge at one

00:53:15.180 --> 00:53:18.770
point, but the border guards caught up to him and surrounded him.

00:53:18.770 --> 00:53:23.170
To Nathan, jail was not an option at all.

00:53:23.170 --> 00:53:29.040
In a moment of total fear and rage, he pulled out a knife out of his pocket and began stabbing

00:53:29.040 --> 00:53:37.600
himself all over, including the neck, until he collapsed.

00:53:37.600 --> 00:53:41.200
Nathan woke up in an intensive care unit in Ontario, Canada.

00:53:41.200 --> 00:53:46.040
He had wounds and bandages all over but he soon stabilized.

00:53:46.040 --> 00:53:49.310
They took him back to the US and put him back in jail.

00:53:49.310 --> 00:53:53.700
I can only imagine the deep depression that Nathan must have felt being there.

00:53:53.700 --> 00:53:57.920
I mean, it seems like he would rather die than go to jail.

00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:00.540
They took him to the very place he hated most of all.

00:54:00.540 --> 00:54:07.600
If you had to pick between jail and death and you got both, how terrible would you feel?

00:54:07.600 --> 00:54:08.600
Such a horror.

00:54:08.600 --> 00:54:12.960
Now he has to stay in jail and wait for his court hearing.

00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:20.560
[MUSIC] David, Sanad, and Nathan were all back in jail at this point, some of them returning

00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:22.560
for a second time.

00:54:22.560 --> 00:54:26.180
They were all being held in the same jail but really weren’t allowed to see each other.

00:54:26.180 --> 00:54:30.080
SANAD: Nathan I met before Dave.

00:54:30.080 --> 00:54:36.700
They brought him to put him into a suicide watch room which was on the unit I was in.

00:54:36.700 --> 00:54:39.600
As soon as I saw him – he looked way different.

00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:45.720
He had a scar on his neck close to his cheekbone, almost.

00:54:45.720 --> 00:54:48.500
I guess he tried to cut his own throat.

00:54:48.500 --> 00:54:49.670
His hair was very short.

00:54:49.670 --> 00:54:53.060
I’ve never seen his hair short like that.

00:54:53.060 --> 00:54:54.150
They had him on suicide watch.

00:54:54.150 --> 00:54:57.150
They wouldn’t let me talk to him.

00:54:57.150 --> 00:55:00.430
A few days later they sent him to a different unit.

00:55:00.430 --> 00:55:04.750
Then I met Dave when we went to go to our plea hearing.

00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:08.080
When I walked on the elevator, the first thing he said to me was hey, Sonic.

00:55:08.080 --> 00:55:11.680
JACK: Sonic is Sanad’s hacker name.

00:55:11.680 --> 00:55:14.020
This was the first time the two of them met in real life.

00:55:14.020 --> 00:55:19.420
SANAD: We both rode on the same van together, we sat in the same bullpen together.

00:55:19.420 --> 00:55:22.180
I mean, I had nothing to say at first.

00:55:22.180 --> 00:55:29.360
Then when we sat in the van and started talking, he was like you know Person A is Justin, right?

00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:32.330
I’m like yeah, I know.

00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:37.430
JACK: They all waited in jail for about a year for their trial to begin.

00:55:37.430 --> 00:55:40.970
The three of them come together for their trial; Sanad, Nathan, and David.

00:55:40.970 --> 00:55:47.960
SANAD: We ended up pleading guilty to conspiracy and the two charges were unlawful access to

00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:50.700
a secure computer network and criminal copyright infringement.

00:55:50.700 --> 00:55:54.510
JACK: Sanad was worried that he’d have to go to prison for five years but the judge

00:55:54.510 --> 00:55:57.870
told him he only had to serve eighteen months in prison.

00:55:57.870 --> 00:56:01.630
The judge also told David that he had eighteen months in prison.

00:56:01.630 --> 00:56:06.050
But the judge gave Nathan twenty-four months.

00:56:06.050 --> 00:56:09.950
After Sanad and Nathan were sentenced, they were put in a holding cell together.

00:56:09.950 --> 00:56:14.660
Sanad’s sentenced included time served and since he already was in jail for fifteen months,

00:56:14.660 --> 00:56:17.600
this meant he only had to do another three months before getting out.

00:56:17.600 --> 00:56:19.530
That wasn’t so bad.

00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:22.070
Nathan wasn’t taking this at all.

00:56:22.070 --> 00:56:24.220
SANAD: It was pretty bad.

00:56:24.220 --> 00:56:27.521
Nathan was crying, like a lot.

00:56:27.521 --> 00:56:29.390
I actually felt really bad for him.

00:56:29.390 --> 00:56:34.510
I tried to talk to him a little bit and he just really didn’t want to hear it.

00:56:34.510 --> 00:56:35.900
He was very distraught.

00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:42.040
JACK: David, Sanad, and Nathan were all locked up in prison to serve out their time.

00:56:42.040 --> 00:56:47.310
Back on the other side of the globe in Perth, Dylan was facing a world of legal battles.

00:56:47.310 --> 00:56:51.910
DYLAN: I guess I pled not guilty to the sense that they tried to hit me with everything

00:56:51.910 --> 00:56:54.620
when it wasn’t everything that I did.

00:56:54.620 --> 00:56:57.180
At the start they put a lot of false charges on me.

00:56:57.180 --> 00:57:01.500
JACK: They were saying he had child exploitation material on his computers and other things

00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:03.680
that he didn’t actually have or do.

00:57:03.680 --> 00:57:05.580
Waiting for his trial seemed to take forever.

00:57:05.580 --> 00:57:07.540
He battled with courts for three years.

00:57:07.540 --> 00:57:12.370
DYLAN: What was happening was I wanted a trial by jury and they didn’t really like that,

00:57:12.370 --> 00:57:17.900
but that was my legal right so this hearing was for it go from the Children’s Court

00:57:17.900 --> 00:57:20.330
to move to the District Court.

00:57:20.330 --> 00:57:24.500
JACK: This again delayed all kinds of stuff and caused more complications for the courts.

00:57:24.500 --> 00:57:27.480
DYLAN: They basically said okay, so we’re gonna move it.

00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:28.660
No one really objected it.

00:57:28.660 --> 00:57:31.950
But we’re gonna take your passport.

00:57:31.950 --> 00:57:35.550
[MUSIC] Before then, I was able to travel.

00:57:35.550 --> 00:57:37.221
I was able to do whatever I wanted.

00:57:37.221 --> 00:57:38.360
I was traveling, even.

00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:41.740
I had no problem going abroad and back.

00:57:41.740 --> 00:57:46.030
But all of a sudden, three years later, I’m a flight risk?

00:57:46.030 --> 00:57:48.020
It was an odd way to do it.

00:57:48.020 --> 00:57:51.630
I guess what I didn’t like was I was losing my freedom there.

00:57:51.630 --> 00:57:55.340
Three years later, you’re already passed what you did as a kid.

00:57:55.340 --> 00:57:57.900
You’re not focused on that anymore.

00:57:57.900 --> 00:58:00.160
Yeah, so they basically wanted to take my passport.

00:58:00.160 --> 00:58:03.060
Within forty-eight hours I had to surrender it.

00:58:03.060 --> 00:58:08.340
Within six hours I was on my way to Dubai.

00:58:08.340 --> 00:58:11.420
JACK: Where were you trying to – what was your destination?

00:58:11.420 --> 00:58:14.790
DYLAN: My destination was [01:00:00] one of three countries.

00:58:14.790 --> 00:58:16.930
I ended up with the Czech Republic.

00:58:16.930 --> 00:58:20.330
JACK: ‘Cause that’s where you have some roots, right?

00:58:20.330 --> 00:58:22.440
DYLAN: That’s where I have citizenship, yeah.

00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:24.060
JACK: Oh, okay.

00:58:24.060 --> 00:58:30.100
DYLAN: As a citizen, there was – you can’t really be extradited as a citizen.

00:58:30.100 --> 00:58:33.760
JACK: Dylan’s mom was originally from the Czech Republic but moved to Perth.

00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:38.940
In fact, Dylan was a Czech citizen so he felt safe to hide out there for a while.

00:58:38.940 --> 00:58:41.320
At first it was fine, no police.

00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:44.600
The Australian government didn’t actually try to come after him.

00:58:44.600 --> 00:58:47.110
Hm. This might work.

00:58:47.110 --> 00:58:52.190
DYLAN: Until they eventually actually charged my mother.

00:58:52.190 --> 00:58:57.670
Because she was on my bail application, they charged her with perversion of justice.

00:58:57.670 --> 00:59:02.570
JACK: His mom was being blamed for driving him to the airport and giving him money to

00:59:02.570 --> 00:59:03.570
leave.

00:59:03.570 --> 00:59:08.030
Dylan says he used his own money and took a taxi to the airport, but he wasn’t there

00:59:08.030 --> 00:59:12.010
to testify so the jury believed she was guilty.

00:59:12.010 --> 00:59:14.500
They sent her to prison.

00:59:14.500 --> 00:59:22.380
DYLAN: Eighteen months for perversion of justice for not even what was alleged, but just because

00:59:22.380 --> 00:59:23.380
the jury believed.

00:59:23.380 --> 00:59:29.340
JACK: Dylan’s mom served a full eighteen months in prison and then was released.

00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:35.110
DYLAN: She could have had a new trial but I guess it’s the sense of you just want

00:59:35.110 --> 00:59:36.260
it all done with.

00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:37.260
JACK: Jeez.

00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:41.080
DYLAN: Yeah, it’s kind of the harsh reality of everything.

00:59:41.080 --> 00:59:43.290
Someone’s gotta go down for something.

00:59:43.290 --> 00:59:45.450
JACK: Your poor mom, though.

00:59:45.450 --> 00:59:48.080
DYLAN: I know, I know.

00:59:48.080 --> 00:59:50.840
For something that she didn’t even do.

00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:54.940
JACK: She’s gotta hate you at this point.

00:59:54.940 --> 00:59:56.390
What is your relationship now?

00:59:56.390 --> 00:59:58.160
DYLAN: It’s great.

00:59:58.160 --> 00:59:59.930
It’s not bad.

00:59:59.930 --> 01:00:03.200
I don’t think anyone holds it against me.

01:00:03.200 --> 01:00:10.300
I think everyone that sees it is that – these police misused their power.

01:00:10.300 --> 01:00:17.270
They abused it a bit further than they should have, took it a bit too far, and that’s

01:00:17.270 --> 01:00:18.410
just how it was.

01:00:18.410 --> 01:00:22.690
If you ask them now, they’re not actively pursuing me.

01:00:22.690 --> 01:00:25.560
They don’t care about me.

01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:31.970
I sometimes put it as I’m probably the most unwanted fugitive.

01:00:31.970 --> 01:00:38.600
JACK: Since then Dylan has never been convicted, nor served any prison time for his hacking,

01:00:38.600 --> 01:00:43.240
nor has he ever returned to Australia, the place where he spent his entire life living.

01:00:43.240 --> 01:00:47.030
DYLAN: I lost quite a lot in this.

01:00:47.030 --> 01:00:50.050
Yeah, it hits a toll on you, always.

01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:54.050
JACK: Now Dylan is living in the UK and isn’t worried about all his past catching up to

01:00:54.050 --> 01:00:55.050
him.

01:00:55.050 --> 01:00:58.100
He thinks that enough time has passed and if something was gonna happen, it would have

01:00:58.100 --> 01:00:59.330
happened by now.

01:00:59.330 --> 01:01:03.110
He even gives talks openly at conferences and discusses what he did.

01:01:03.110 --> 01:01:07.150
It’s weird to me, I know, but perhaps you just can’t catch everyone sometimes.

01:01:07.150 --> 01:01:11.320
There were a lot of people in this hacking circle and half got away.

01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:16.010
Dylan was one who got away, and now that the Statute of Limitations are up in the US, which

01:01:16.010 --> 01:01:20.050
is the only one who really wanted him, then it actually does seem over.

01:01:20.050 --> 01:01:25.200
Currently, he’s working as a security researcher in the UK and he applies his knowledge to

01:01:25.200 --> 01:01:27.820
help find vulnerabilities in other companies.

01:01:27.820 --> 01:01:29.570
But everything he does is now legal.

01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:32.350
DYLAN: 100% legal, 100% above board.

01:01:32.350 --> 01:01:39.850
I keep very good records of conversations, very good records and logs of what we access,

01:01:39.850 --> 01:01:40.850
what we do.

01:01:40.850 --> 01:01:45.010
JACK: Yeah, somehow, he has no fear at all about police coming after him anymore.

01:01:45.010 --> 01:01:47.170
DYLAN: Look, I’ve worked with police.

01:01:47.170 --> 01:01:48.280
I’m active in the community.

01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:53.420
I go to every single InfoSec convention, London XYZ, you know.

01:01:53.420 --> 01:01:57.460
I’m not hiding ‘cause I’m not doing anything wrong.

01:01:57.460 --> 01:02:02.360
I did something when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, an underage teenager.

01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:03.360
It was wrong.

01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:04.840
I learned from that.

01:02:04.840 --> 01:02:06.870
I don’t judge someone on their past.

01:02:06.870 --> 01:02:09.840
I think judge someone on their present.

01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:11.580
We all do stupid things in our past.

01:02:11.580 --> 01:02:18.350
We can’t change that but we can always make a better picture for ourselves.

01:02:18.350 --> 01:02:25.530
JACK: [MUSIC] As Sanad sat in prison and looked over his court documents, something didn’t

01:02:25.530 --> 01:02:26.530
add up.

01:02:26.530 --> 01:02:29.530
Austin was added to his indictment as a co-conspirator.

01:02:29.530 --> 01:02:34.010
He’s the one who was doing a lot of hacking with them and then went off to make FIFA coins

01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:35.570
with Anthony.

01:02:35.570 --> 01:02:40.240
Austin was listed as a co-conspirator in the indictment and was also facing charges.

01:02:40.240 --> 01:02:44.860
Okay, this makes sense but something’s missing here; where was Austin?

01:02:44.860 --> 01:02:49.500
He was actually in court, but very briefly, and wasn’t arrested and didn’t get sentenced

01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:51.980
even though it lists him as a co-conspirator.

01:02:51.980 --> 01:02:56.260
SANAD: I kept wondering why Austin never got locked up.

01:02:56.260 --> 01:03:00.070
His sentencing was supposed to be around the time I was supposed to be getting released.

01:03:00.070 --> 01:03:02.230
He never had sentencing.

01:03:02.230 --> 01:03:07.620
I never knew that he was bringing in those four other people on that case.

01:03:07.620 --> 01:03:10.650
JACK: There was a separate case going on.

01:03:10.650 --> 01:03:14.610
When Austin and Anthony were hacking the FIFA game to make [01:05:00] coins and sell them,

01:03:14.610 --> 01:03:18.160
they got some people pretty angry and the police went after Austin.

01:03:18.160 --> 01:03:21.790
But Austin didn’t serve time for that case, either.

01:03:21.790 --> 01:03:25.351
Instead, Anthony and a few other guys were brought to court for that case.

01:03:25.351 --> 01:03:31.720
SANAD: He gave up four people in exchange for his time.

01:03:31.720 --> 01:03:35.660
JACK: Skitzo thinks that Austin may have bribed his way out of jail.

01:03:35.660 --> 01:03:40.600
But for whatever reason, Austin was let go and Anthony was left high and dry, holding

01:03:40.600 --> 01:03:43.310
a mountain of legal problems.

01:03:43.310 --> 01:03:48.440
The courts wanted to convict Anthony of one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud.

01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:52.820
Anthony’s lawyers were hopeful that they could get the case thrown out because it clearly

01:03:52.820 --> 01:03:57.750
said in EA’s terms that FIFA coins had no monetary value.

01:03:57.750 --> 01:04:01.210
Acquiring them and selling them should not have violated any laws.

01:04:01.210 --> 01:04:08.950
But Anthony had sold a lot of coins, millions of dollars worth, along with a few other people

01:04:08.950 --> 01:04:10.410
who were involved.

01:04:10.410 --> 01:04:11.830
Anthony was still a bit worried.

01:04:11.830 --> 01:04:16.910
As his trial date got closer and after seeing David, Sanad, and Nathan end up in prison,

01:04:16.910 --> 01:04:19.920
he got more nervous about what would happen to him.

01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.170
He had to wait for months for his court day to come.

01:04:23.170 --> 01:04:27.610
The waiting was stressful and depressing for Anthony.

01:04:27.610 --> 01:04:30.380
By this time, Sanad had been released from prison for a while.

01:04:30.380 --> 01:04:36.020
SANAD: I was talking to another friend of mine and we’re just talking about everything.

01:04:36.020 --> 01:04:40.210
Actually, I asked him; I said oh, how’s Anthony doing?

01:04:40.210 --> 01:04:42.340
You still talk to him?

01:04:42.340 --> 01:04:44.040
He’s like, Anthony’s dead.

01:04:44.040 --> 01:04:45.320
I’m like, what?

01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:47.340
He’s like yeah, he died.

01:04:47.340 --> 01:04:49.070
I’m like, get outta here.

01:04:49.070 --> 01:04:50.980
You must be joking or something.

01:04:50.980 --> 01:04:59.500
Then I started reading articles online and stuff and it was a reality.

01:04:59.500 --> 01:05:02.930
JACK: Anthony died from a mix of alcohol and medication.

01:05:02.930 --> 01:05:06.530
Those close to him say it was not suicide.

01:05:06.530 --> 01:05:12.520
SANAD: I mean, honestly, it still has me kind of screwed up.

01:05:12.520 --> 01:05:18.410
JACK: Anthony was twenty-seven years old when he died and was worth four million dollars,

01:05:18.410 --> 01:05:22.120
which I’m pretty sure he got that by selling those FIFA coins.

01:05:22.120 --> 01:05:24.900
It was that lucrative.

01:05:24.900 --> 01:05:28.840
When the crew learned about Anthony’s death and put the pieces together, they thought

01:05:28.840 --> 01:05:31.140
Austin probably turned him in.

01:05:31.140 --> 01:05:34.180
This created a new sense of bitterness towards Austin.

01:05:34.180 --> 01:05:36.890
SANAD: Austin, I never liked.

01:05:36.890 --> 01:05:42.480
I talked to him one time.

01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:44.830
He came into the picture way after me.

01:05:44.830 --> 01:05:45.880
I never liked the kid.

01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:49.180
It wasn’t that I didn’t trust him; I just didn’t like him.

01:05:49.180 --> 01:05:53.030
JACK: At this point all three of them, Sanad, David, and Nathan were all done with prison

01:05:53.030 --> 01:05:54.520
and they were out.

01:05:54.520 --> 01:05:57.520
There was various levels of probation for all of them.

01:05:57.520 --> 01:06:01.340
David went back to Canada and still wonders how all this got out of hand.

01:06:01.340 --> 01:06:04.810
He just wanted to play around but things just went too far.

01:06:04.810 --> 01:06:10.030
He went back to school and finished his degree, and he still owns that VW Golf R. He’s trying

01:06:10.030 --> 01:06:12.870
to build a career in security.

01:06:12.870 --> 01:06:15.780
But Nathan didn’t have such a good experience after prison.

01:06:15.780 --> 01:06:19.420
In fact, the last few years were particularly rough on him.

01:06:19.420 --> 01:06:20.880
Nathan’s incredibly smart.

01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:22.710
Some in the circle even call him a genius.

01:06:22.710 --> 01:06:29.500
DYLAN: I really saw Nathan as a very great person, very talented programmer, very kind,

01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:30.500
really.

01:06:30.500 --> 01:06:35.000
JACK: His family wasn’t able to fully pay for his schooling but during all that hacking,

01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:36.590
he was going to University of Maryland.

01:06:36.590 --> 01:06:39.920
In fact, Nathan wasn’t even hacking that much with the group.

01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:45.540
DYLAN: Nathan didn’t play a big role in it but Nathan was still part of the core group

01:06:45.540 --> 01:06:46.540
at the time.

01:06:46.540 --> 01:06:50.350
JACK: He focused more on school even though he could barely afford it.

01:06:50.350 --> 01:06:54.100
When they sold the Durango, Dylan gave him a cut of the sales.

01:06:54.100 --> 01:06:58.890
While Dylan spent his money getting more computers, Nathan spent his share on something else.

01:06:58.890 --> 01:07:02.880
DYLAN: He decided to stick his money into his college fees.

01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:06.670
JACK: He was really just part of the family, and such a nice guy.

01:07:06.670 --> 01:07:10.270
They felt bad that Nathan not only had to go through all this, but got even more of

01:07:10.270 --> 01:07:11.270
a sentence.

01:07:11.270 --> 01:07:14.400
David even told them back in the van, you don’t deserve this shit.

01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:17.380
Rat on me or do whatever you have to.

01:07:17.380 --> 01:07:21.660
While Nathan was out on bail living in Maryland with his family, he came out and told his

01:07:21.660 --> 01:07:23.710
family he was gay.

01:07:23.710 --> 01:07:28.600
After professing his homosexuality, he lost some of the support he needed which is another

01:07:28.600 --> 01:07:31.520
reason he tried to run for the Canadian border.

01:07:31.520 --> 01:07:36.370
When he got caught and was brought back to the place he hated more than anything in life,

01:07:36.370 --> 01:07:41.440
he actually came out as transgender and started identifying as a woman.

01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:44.230
Nathan began calling herself Holly.

01:07:44.230 --> 01:07:50.730
To spend two years in prison as a male identifying as a female has to be really, really rough.

01:07:50.730 --> 01:07:54.410
It’s like doing prison on hard mode.

01:07:54.410 --> 01:07:58.810
Without the support she needed from loved ones, it must have been horrible for Holly.

01:07:58.810 --> 01:08:02.580
It makes sense why she had such a hard time after the sentencing.

01:08:02.580 --> 01:08:06.420
When she got out of prison, Holly didn’t see a positive future ahead for herself.

01:08:06.420 --> 01:08:11.600
I don’t know what the situation was, whether she had a bad probation officer or a bad home

01:08:11.600 --> 01:08:15.260
life situation, but [01:10:00] it got extremely depressing for her.

01:08:15.260 --> 01:08:19.940
You can feel especially depressed if it feels like no one cares for you.

01:08:19.940 --> 01:08:25.210
About a year after Holly was let out of prison, she ended up in Fresno, California.

01:08:25.210 --> 01:08:30.740
From there, she met up with another woman and they decided to do something together.

01:08:30.740 --> 01:08:33.500
They got some supplies and checked into a Motel 6.

01:08:33.500 --> 01:08:39.601
Well, I’ll let the local Fresno news station, KSEE 24 explain the rest.

01:08:39.601 --> 01:08:43.810
REPORTER: You can see it right behind me, this Motel 6 now surrounded by police, fire

01:08:43.810 --> 01:08:47.290
engines, and Chief Jerry Dyer just briefed us minutes ago.

01:08:47.290 --> 01:08:53.600
He says that two motel workers were smelling toxic fumes coming from a motel room.

01:08:53.600 --> 01:08:56.630
This call came in as a possible hazmat situation.

01:08:56.630 --> 01:08:59.960
According to Chief Dyer, it’s some sort of sulfuric acid.

01:08:59.960 --> 01:09:03.660
CHIEF: Also confirmed that there’s two deceased females.

01:09:03.660 --> 01:09:07.290
There is some type of a chemical-making process inside.

01:09:07.290 --> 01:09:12.760
There appeared to be respirators on the two females.

01:09:12.760 --> 01:09:18.790
We’re not certain at this point whether or not this is a murder-suicide or maybe a

01:09:18.790 --> 01:09:23.460
double suicide or accidental death.

01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:33.330
JACK: [MUSIC] While all these people were getting arrested and sent to prison, Justin,

01:09:33.330 --> 01:09:39.520
or MTW, or Person A continued to scam Cisco and Microsoft by requesting replacements for

01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:41.350
devices he didn’t have.

01:09:41.350 --> 01:09:45.500
He was pulling in tons of cash doing this, too, and somehow, he was doing this under

01:09:45.500 --> 01:09:47.410
the watchful eye of the feds.

01:09:47.410 --> 01:09:51.170
But now that the feds caught everyone they were after, they didn’t have a need for

01:09:51.170 --> 01:09:52.470
Justin anymore.

01:09:52.470 --> 01:09:55.240
I think they revoked his free pass.

01:09:55.240 --> 01:10:00.140
Justin got arrested and pled guilty to thirty-five counts of mail fraud and laundering.

01:10:00.140 --> 01:10:05.210
The court documents showed that he issued hundreds and hundreds of returns, or RMAs,

01:10:05.210 --> 01:10:09.130
like Cisco 3850 switches and Microsoft Surfaces.

01:10:09.130 --> 01:10:13.830
The records indicate he made about $300,000 from these scams.

01:10:13.830 --> 01:10:17.940
Justin is currently sitting in a jail waiting for his sentencing hearing.

01:10:17.940 --> 01:10:21.480
He could be facing years in prison for all this scamming he did.

01:10:21.480 --> 01:10:27.632
[MUSIC] When Sanad got out of prison, he had to go through probation.

01:10:27.632 --> 01:10:32.120
He had to check with a probation officer and follow strict rules.

01:10:32.120 --> 01:10:37.170
But he didn’t get along with this probation officer at all.

01:10:37.170 --> 01:10:40.770
After prison, Sanad got a full-time job and started going to school full-time.

01:10:40.770 --> 01:10:43.470
But the probation officer kept pushing him.

01:10:43.470 --> 01:10:46.500
SANAD: She had the nerve to tell me you could do more with yourself.

01:10:46.500 --> 01:10:51.040
Like, I don’t know how much more you want me to do.

01:10:51.040 --> 01:10:56.100
Not many people will work full-time and go to school full-time as is.

01:10:56.100 --> 01:10:59.850
JACK: One of the terms of his probation was that he would be allowed to use a computer

01:10:59.850 --> 01:11:03.920
if he went to school, but his probation officer refused to let him use one.

01:11:03.920 --> 01:11:07.110
SANAD: You know how hard it is to go through college without a computer?

01:11:07.110 --> 01:11:12.030
JACK: During this time, the probation officer visits Sanad at his home a bunch of times

01:11:12.030 --> 01:11:16.400
and checks on him, but he starts just hating how she’s treating him.

01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:21.660
SANAD: She kept pushing my buttons, pushing my buttons, pushing my buttons.

01:11:21.660 --> 01:11:24.790
Everything that I would ever ask her would always be a no.

01:11:24.790 --> 01:11:32.350
For example, I would want to go down and see my sister in Virginia or something, and it’s

01:11:32.350 --> 01:11:33.350
no.

01:11:33.350 --> 01:11:40.730
She would come up with the craziest reasons to why she wouldn’t let me do anything.

01:11:40.730 --> 01:11:45.770
It was December of 2015, the whole thing in San Bernardino had happened.

01:11:45.770 --> 01:11:50.480
I just started this job at a vaper shop, I’m there for a few weeks, and these two guys

01:11:50.480 --> 01:11:52.530
come in.

01:11:52.530 --> 01:11:56.040
As soon as I saw them, I’m just like, these guys are federal agents.

01:11:56.040 --> 01:12:02.170
We go to the back room in the shop and they sit across the table from me and I’m sitting

01:12:02.170 --> 01:12:03.170
down.

01:12:03.170 --> 01:12:04.240
They start asking me questions.

01:12:04.240 --> 01:12:09.601
They’re like oh, can you tell us about your encrypted chatting and your chatting over

01:12:09.601 --> 01:12:13.400
XBox Live and PlayStation network, and all this stuff.

01:12:13.400 --> 01:12:16.240
I’m like, that’s all in my paperwork.

01:12:16.240 --> 01:12:20.260
They’re like oh, this is completely different from the Baltimore investigation.

01:12:20.260 --> 01:12:24.600
I’m like, why do I feel like I’m being interrogated?

01:12:24.600 --> 01:12:31.620
I’m not sure if it’s because the whole thing with Dylan leaking the information on

01:12:31.620 --> 01:12:32.890
the Special Agent and the judge.

01:12:32.890 --> 01:12:36.340
They wouldn’t show me their actual badges with the names on them.

01:12:36.340 --> 01:12:38.650
They just showed me their little shields.

01:12:38.650 --> 01:12:42.610
Then he was like, I’m Agent So-and-so and this is Agent So-and-so.

01:12:42.610 --> 01:12:47.980
We’re from the JTTF and I had no clue what the hell the JTTF was.

01:12:47.980 --> 01:12:50.480
I’m like, what’s the JTTF?

01:12:50.480 --> 01:12:52.810
He’s like, the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

01:12:52.810 --> 01:12:58.470
He says this; my heart literally stopped for a couple seconds.

01:12:58.470 --> 01:12:59.720
My mouth dropped.

01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:01.550
I was in complete shock.

01:13:01.550 --> 01:13:04.070
Why are these people here?

01:13:04.070 --> 01:13:08.810
He starts talking about the San Bernardino thing and all this other stuff.

01:13:08.810 --> 01:13:13.560
I stop him and I’m like, honestly, I’m like, I feel like you guys are just [01:15:00]

01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:15.370
here because I’m Middle Eastern.

01:13:15.370 --> 01:13:20.750
JACK: Suddenly Sanad feels like he’s being interrogated as a possible terrorist and it

01:13:20.750 --> 01:13:21.750
really bothers him.

01:13:21.750 --> 01:13:26.110
Under the Patriot Act, suspected terrorists can be treated very differently than regular

01:13:26.110 --> 01:13:30.000
criminals, but Sanad’s boss stands up for him and she starts telling them hey, he’s

01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:31.360
already served his time.

01:13:31.360 --> 01:13:32.430
Leave him alone.

01:13:32.430 --> 01:13:37.470
So, they leave but Sanad finds out that the two agents first had a chat with the probation

01:13:37.470 --> 01:13:40.920
officer who told them to go visit him at work.

01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:42.950
This really bothered Sanad so much more.

01:13:42.950 --> 01:13:47.850
SANAD: Like, you’ve been to my house so many times and you know I’m not a violent

01:13:47.850 --> 01:13:48.850
person.

01:13:48.850 --> 01:13:51.410
Why didn’t you just tell them to come to my house and talk to me?

01:13:51.410 --> 01:13:54.230
Why would you let them come to my job?

01:13:54.230 --> 01:13:58.740
When I confront her about it and she saw how upset I was, she had the nerve to tell me

01:13:58.740 --> 01:14:00.650
well, you just need to move on from this.

01:14:00.650 --> 01:14:05.560
JACK: The pressure from this probation officer was just growing more and more for Sanad.

01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:08.390
It was just too much for him to handle at this point.

01:14:08.390 --> 01:14:14.980
[MUSIC] Even though he was living at home and his dad was there for him, Sanad was in

01:14:14.980 --> 01:14:16.130
a dark place.

01:14:16.130 --> 01:14:21.200
It was a really bad time, even worse than prison.

01:14:21.200 --> 01:14:26.190
SANAD: I was depressed.

01:14:26.190 --> 01:14:33.020
They put me through so much that I was just sick and tired of it.

01:14:33.020 --> 01:14:35.000
JACK: The pressure was enormous.

01:14:35.000 --> 01:14:36.000
The depression was unignorable.

01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:39.050
Everyone has a breaking point and this was Sanad’s breaking point.

01:14:39.050 --> 01:14:46.500
He couldn’t deal with this anymore so he bought some heroin, too much for any one person

01:14:46.500 --> 01:14:48.400
to need.

01:14:48.400 --> 01:14:54.130
One night when the depression got too bad and everything was just too much, he fixed

01:14:54.130 --> 01:14:55.990
up some needles.

01:14:55.990 --> 01:15:01.800
SANAD: I tried to overdose on opiates, specifically heroin.

01:15:01.800 --> 01:15:10.250
JACK: He loaded up the needle with what he knew was too much, then he shot up.

01:15:10.250 --> 01:15:12.330
He closed his eyes.

01:15:12.330 --> 01:15:14.900
Everything went dark.

01:15:14.900 --> 01:15:20.820
He fell over onto the floor.

01:15:20.820 --> 01:15:22.850
His dad was home at the time.

01:15:22.850 --> 01:15:31.010
SANAD: Yeah, they heard a thump and then they went to my room.

01:15:31.010 --> 01:15:34.250
They found me laying on the floor, unconscious.

01:15:34.250 --> 01:15:39.480
JACK: His father called 911 and the paramedics arrived quickly and injected him with Narcan,

01:15:39.480 --> 01:15:42.750
a medication used to block the effects of opioids.

01:15:42.750 --> 01:15:46.650
Within a few minutes, the Narcan kicked in and Sanad came back to.

01:15:46.650 --> 01:15:49.610
SANAD: Oh God, it was the most painful feeling in my life.

01:15:49.610 --> 01:15:54.800
I honestly felt like I got hit by a truck.

01:15:54.800 --> 01:16:00.780
My whole body just felt so sore and achy.

01:16:00.780 --> 01:16:05.430
It was an extremely horrible feeling.

01:16:05.430 --> 01:16:13.000
JACK: They took him to the hospital for treatment and his probation officer visited him there.

01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:17.210
Sanad asked if she’s going to violate him for taking the drugs but she told him no,

01:16:17.210 --> 01:16:18.210
she won’t.

01:16:18.210 --> 01:16:21.390
He takes it easy for a while to recover from this incident.

01:16:21.390 --> 01:16:26.060
SANAD: There was a family wedding that my family wanted me to go with them to.

01:16:26.060 --> 01:16:28.460
It was out of state.

01:16:28.460 --> 01:16:32.480
It was in New York so I had to get permission.

01:16:32.480 --> 01:16:36.440
So, I call her up to ask her for permission and that’s when she was like, we’re not

01:16:36.440 --> 01:16:38.010
letting you go out of state.

01:16:38.010 --> 01:16:39.150
We’re violating you.

01:16:39.150 --> 01:16:42.950
Mind you, where I was going was only an hour away from where I lived anyway.

01:16:42.950 --> 01:16:45.420
JACK: The violation is bad on probation.

01:16:45.420 --> 01:16:50.790
It means you might have to go back to prison or serve some jail time, or get more probation.

01:16:50.790 --> 01:16:54.530
Whatever the violation was, Sanad was not seeing a bright future for himself.

01:16:54.530 --> 01:16:59.900
SANAD: It got to the point where I was like well, they’re violating me, I might as well

01:16:59.900 --> 01:17:03.150
just get as high as possible.

01:17:03.150 --> 01:17:06.880
[MUSIC] Things started getting really out of hand.

01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:13.910
I literally went into the court room beyond blitzed.

01:17:13.910 --> 01:17:19.100
It just got really, really bad so they put me in Essex County for three weeks, and then

01:17:19.100 --> 01:17:23.600
they put me in a rehab program in Newark, New Jersey which honestly, that place was

01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:25.480
a complete joke.

01:17:25.480 --> 01:17:27.290
It was literally a money mill.

01:17:27.290 --> 01:17:31.610
JACK: Sanad spends four months in rehab then gets to come home.

01:17:31.610 --> 01:17:36.540
But the rehab worked though; he’s feeling clean, he’s got no urges to take any drugs.

01:17:36.540 --> 01:17:38.040
He’s doing good.

01:17:38.040 --> 01:17:40.400
But then he gets sick.

01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:51.160
SANAD: I get yearly bronchitis so I coughed so hard one day that one of my ribs snapped.

01:17:51.160 --> 01:17:54.240
It was the most painful feeling I’ve ever had in my life.

01:17:54.240 --> 01:17:57.220
I can’t even stress how painful it was.

01:17:57.220 --> 01:17:58.620
I go to the hospital.

01:17:58.620 --> 01:18:06.010
The orthopaedist puts me on Oxycodone and I’m on it for quite some time.

01:18:06.010 --> 01:18:11.470
Before I’m supposed to get off, I tell the probation officer, I’m like look, I need

01:18:11.470 --> 01:18:17.670
to go on something, [01:20:00] Suboxone or something to slowly come off this.

01:18:17.670 --> 01:18:20.810
I’m like, if you guys cut me off this, I’m going to get sick.

01:18:20.810 --> 01:18:25.850
JACK: People who are on opioids like Oxycodone for even just five days have a high percentage

01:18:25.850 --> 01:18:28.510
of becoming addicted to other opioids like heroin.

01:18:28.510 --> 01:18:34.010
He asked his probation officer for help coming off of it so he doesn’t relapse.

01:18:34.010 --> 01:18:39.990
SANAD: She’s like no, you’re just trying to use it as a crutch, and that’s all you’re

01:18:39.990 --> 01:18:41.410
trying to do.

01:18:41.410 --> 01:18:43.140
Her boss is agreeing with her.

01:18:43.140 --> 01:18:47.180
He straight up called me a frequent flier.

01:18:47.180 --> 01:18:49.940
She gives me this hard time and basically, they kick me out.

01:18:49.940 --> 01:18:53.420
They’re like no, we’re not doing it.

01:18:53.420 --> 01:18:59.330
Of course, I get sick, and the only thing I knew that would take away that feeling was

01:18:59.330 --> 01:19:00.330
more opiates.

01:19:00.330 --> 01:19:04.352
Oxycodone’s not very easy to find on the street.

01:19:04.352 --> 01:19:10.760
The only thing I knew what to get was heroin because that’s the easiest thing to find

01:19:10.760 --> 01:19:12.220
in New Jersey.

01:19:12.220 --> 01:19:17.660
JACK: Sanad begins doing heroin to get his fix but soon after that, the probation officer

01:19:17.660 --> 01:19:19.430
finds out he’s on it.

01:19:19.430 --> 01:19:23.370
She shows no sympathy for him and brings him directly to court to see a judge.

01:19:23.370 --> 01:19:27.500
SANAD: When I went to court, the judge was like, I understand you broke your rib and

01:19:27.500 --> 01:19:31.620
I know how painful that can be, but I’m doing this to save your life.

01:19:31.620 --> 01:19:35.960
Then she gave me nine months in federal prison and another year of probation.

01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:40.730
JACK: Sanad serves his nine months in prison which he has many more stories about being

01:19:40.730 --> 01:19:43.650
in the SHU, and other issues that went on there.

01:19:43.650 --> 01:19:47.980
When he gets out, he gets permission to move to West Virginia to live with his sister.

01:19:47.980 --> 01:19:50.940
Perhaps a change of scenery will help him serve his probation better.

01:19:50.940 --> 01:19:55.330
SANAD: Honestly, my probation officer down here is awesome.

01:19:55.330 --> 01:19:57.310
She does not bother me.

01:19:57.310 --> 01:20:00.960
She’s basically like, look, just pass your drug tests.

01:20:00.960 --> 01:20:04.900
Don’t catch any new charges, don’t use any unauthorized computers, we’re good.

01:20:04.900 --> 01:20:07.190
JACK: Yeah, so tell me about your computer usage today.

01:20:07.190 --> 01:20:08.610
What are you allowed to use computer-wise?

01:20:08.610 --> 01:20:13.900
SANAD: The smart phone that I’m talking to you on, and it has monitoring software

01:20:13.900 --> 01:20:15.610
on it.

01:20:15.610 --> 01:20:22.800
JACK: [MUSIC] In the last eight years, Sanad has not been able to use any technology other

01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:25.310
than this phone he’s allowed to use.

01:20:25.310 --> 01:20:27.150
No video games at all.

01:20:27.150 --> 01:20:31.020
No video games for eight years.

01:20:31.020 --> 01:20:36.750
But in August of 2019, just last month, his probation was done.

01:20:36.750 --> 01:20:42.210
He served all his time and now he can go and play video games if he wants.

01:20:42.210 --> 01:20:46.130
He said that on midnight of that night he was gonna go play Halo.

01:20:46.130 --> 01:20:53.120
In case you’re wondering how I made this episode, Sanad’s phone sucks and since that’s

01:20:53.120 --> 01:20:56.210
all I could talk to him with, I found a person in West Virginia to help.

01:20:56.210 --> 01:20:57.210
Her name is Diane.

01:20:57.210 --> 01:20:59.680
She had a mic and was willing to record this interview for me.

01:20:59.680 --> 01:21:00.800
I appreciate Diane’s patience.

01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:02.530
SANAD: I’ll let her know.

01:21:02.530 --> 01:21:04.960
He said he really appreciates your patience.

01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:05.960
DYLAN: Sure.

01:21:05.960 --> 01:21:12.240
JACK: Oh, and Sanad has been sober for a year now and feeling much better about life.

01:21:12.240 --> 01:21:13.860
All this brings us to today.

01:21:13.860 --> 01:21:18.830
Wow, what a magical time to look back and see what the XBox had to go through to become

01:21:18.830 --> 01:21:20.070
what it is today.

01:21:20.070 --> 01:21:24.580
The XBox hacker scene in the 2010’s was a special era to be part of.

01:21:24.580 --> 01:21:30.090
SKITZO: I really don’t think something like this will ever happen again, of how fucking

01:21:30.090 --> 01:21:31.960
wild and insane it was.

01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:32.960
It was anarchy.

01:21:32.960 --> 01:21:34.100
JACK: Why wouldn’t it happen again?

01:21:34.100 --> 01:21:37.620
SKITZO: On the console side shit’s locked down like a motherfucker now.

01:21:37.620 --> 01:21:39.590
JACK: That’s ‘cause someone ruined it.

01:21:39.590 --> 01:21:41.740
SKITZO: Yeah, we did.

01:21:41.740 --> 01:21:42.930
Thanks, MTW.

01:21:42.930 --> 01:21:51.830
No, but I mean, as I said, the overlap of groups and communities and stuff like that,

01:21:51.830 --> 01:21:56.040
the wild west that PartnerNet was.

01:21:56.040 --> 01:21:58.980
Things now are on The Wild List and stuff like that.

01:21:58.980 --> 01:22:03.730
Security is taken to a different level.

01:22:03.730 --> 01:22:08.700
Based on the Microsoft side of things, there’s no dev kits anymore.

01:22:08.700 --> 01:22:12.900
There’s no specialty or proprietary-made units anymore.

01:22:12.900 --> 01:22:16.920
Security is a huge, huge focus now and rightfully so.

01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:22.940
It’s been how many years since the XBox One has been released, and you don’t really

01:22:22.940 --> 01:22:25.670
hear anything being done.

01:22:25.670 --> 01:22:29.100
Not to say that there isn’t work being done in the background, I’m sure there is, but

01:22:29.100 --> 01:22:30.720
it’s not public.

01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:35.490
You don’t really hear much of anything public.

01:22:35.490 --> 01:22:43.540
From what I’ve heard, it’s a very tight-knit group and even at that point it’s – not

01:22:43.540 --> 01:22:49.650
much is being done progress-wise that is worth this shit, let’s put it that way.

01:22:49.650 --> 01:22:56.210
If I’m wrong, so be it, but this is what has been conveyed to me.

01:22:56.210 --> 01:23:01.960
JACK (OUTRO): [OUTRO MUSIC] You’ve been listening to Darknet Diaries.

01:23:01.960 --> 01:23:08.200
Thank you so much to Sanad, Dylan, and Skitzo for sharing this amazing, incredible story

01:23:08.200 --> 01:23:09.450
with us.

01:23:09.450 --> 01:23:10.470
You guys are unbelievable.

01:23:10.470 --> 01:23:13.290
Oh, yeah, bunnie, thank you too.

01:23:13.290 --> 01:23:15.550
[01:25:00] Think this story is too crazy to be true?

01:23:15.550 --> 01:23:20.120
Well, this was actually the cover article for Wired Magazine back in the May 2018 issue

01:23:20.120 --> 01:23:24.080
which was written by Brendan Koerner, so thanks Brendan for all your work you did on that

01:23:24.080 --> 01:23:25.080
story, too.

01:23:25.080 --> 01:23:29.200
But you can also go to darknetdiaries.com where you can see links to news articles,

01:23:29.200 --> 01:23:33.240
photos, indictments, and all kinds of court documents that I had to meticulously comb

01:23:33.240 --> 01:23:34.950
through to fact-check this story.

01:23:34.950 --> 01:23:37.630
Amazingly enough, it all checks out.

01:23:37.630 --> 01:23:44.430
Hey Dylan, I heard you got harassed by a vendor once and got kind of shoved and pushed around.

01:23:44.430 --> 01:23:45.800
You want to tell us that story?

01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:47.150
DYLAN: Okay, yeah.

01:23:47.150 --> 01:23:48.950
Where do we begin?

01:23:48.950 --> 01:23:50.750
JACK: Oh, actually, wait.

01:23:50.750 --> 01:23:56.020
Let’s do this; that’ll be a bonus episode that will be available for Patreon users in

01:23:56.020 --> 01:24:01.580
a few weeks so if you want to hear that story, go to patreon.com/darknetdiaries and look

01:24:01.580 --> 01:24:03.210
for it in a couple weeks.

01:24:03.210 --> 01:24:09.290
This episode was created by me, the best warthog driver you ever did see, yee-haw, Jack Rhysider.

01:24:09.290 --> 01:24:13.310
Editing assistance is from my personal Cortana Damienne.

01:24:13.310 --> 01:24:24.150
The theme music and other songs for this episode was created by Breakmaster Chief Cylinder.