WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.550 --> 00:00:01.540 JACK: I just came back from DEFCON, 00:00:01.540 --> 00:00:03.300 and it was so wonderful meeting 00:00:03.300 --> 00:00:04.630 so many of the listeners there. 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:06.319 Many of you asked how my dad is 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:08.829 doing, and I’ll tell you; he’s 00:00:08.840 --> 00:00:11.010 struggling with the modern world. 00:00:11.450 --> 00:00:12.240 Let me show you what I mean. 00:00:12.540 --> 00:00:14.109 So like, I call my dad a few times a 00:00:14.110 --> 00:00:16.789 week just to check in on him, but he only 00:00:16.789 --> 00:00:19.860 calls me when he’s got computer problems. 00:00:20.029 --> 00:00:20.916 Let me play for you what one 00:00:20.916 --> 00:00:22.249 of these calls sounds like. 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:25.820 DAD: Okay, so, anytime I get a photo 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:29.140 or if I want to save it, there’s like 00:00:29.770 --> 00:00:32.139 three little dots top-right corner. 00:00:33.189 --> 00:00:33.599 JACK: Yeah. 00:00:34.269 --> 00:00:35.149 DAD: Like saving a photo. 00:00:36.059 --> 00:00:37.289 I hit the dots 'cause I 00:00:37.309 --> 00:00:39.050 want it to save a photo. 00:00:40.259 --> 00:00:44.240 It used to say Save. 00:00:45.750 --> 00:00:48.829 Now it says Save to Account. 00:00:49.669 --> 00:00:51.389 So, I’m clicking on that, Save 00:00:51.429 --> 00:00:53.950 to Account, but the account 00:00:53.959 --> 00:00:56.979 is something called OneDrive. 00:00:58.369 --> 00:00:59.680 Oh, it says Add Account. 00:01:00.009 --> 00:01:01.319 How do I add an account? 00:01:01.869 --> 00:01:03.219 ‘Cause OneDrive I don't use. 00:01:03.219 --> 00:01:04.170 I don't even know what that is. 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:07.489 This is ridiculous. 00:01:08.199 --> 00:01:09.639 JACK: Yeah, where’d you get this tablet? 00:01:11.189 --> 00:01:12.199 DAD: You gave it to me. 00:01:13.409 --> 00:01:15.079 It’s like, all of a sudden my 00:01:15.089 --> 00:01:17.199 photo — Save Image is gone. 00:01:17.419 --> 00:01:18.599 JACK: Where did you get the photo? 00:01:20.369 --> 00:01:21.819 DAD: Well, I just pulled up any 00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:23.289 one so I could explain to you it. 00:01:23.389 --> 00:01:25.480 JACK: Okay, so, you took the photo. 00:01:26.779 --> 00:01:28.139 DAD: I took it on the tablet. 00:01:28.149 --> 00:01:31.520 JACK: [To audience] Did I hear that right? 00:01:31.759 --> 00:01:34.929 He took a photo on his iPad of 00:01:34.930 --> 00:01:36.759 some rabbits and doesn't know 00:01:36.779 --> 00:01:38.840 how to save the photo he took? 00:01:38.919 --> 00:01:40.849 It’s always the most mind-boggling 00:01:40.849 --> 00:01:42.209 question that he throws at me. 00:01:42.659 --> 00:01:43.729 I saw the photo. 00:01:43.750 --> 00:01:44.809 It was dark and blurry. 00:01:44.809 --> 00:01:46.189 It was not even worth saving, 00:01:46.430 --> 00:01:49.429 but he manages to stump me every 00:01:49.430 --> 00:01:51.249 time with these tech questions. 00:01:51.649 --> 00:01:53.379 I’m just like, uh… 00:01:53.790 --> 00:01:54.569 DAD: Oh, wait a minute. 00:01:55.110 --> 00:01:59.269 No, I found it pushing buttons. 00:01:59.930 --> 00:02:00.330 JACK: Good. 00:02:00.919 --> 00:02:01.819 DAD: You did it again. 00:02:02.419 --> 00:02:03.979 I’m gonna go to Photos 00:02:03.979 --> 00:02:05.119 and see if it’s there. 00:02:05.269 --> 00:02:05.909 Yep. 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:07.189 Okay. 00:02:07.189 --> 00:02:07.369 JACK: Awesome. 00:02:07.459 --> 00:02:08.469 DAD: I’m not really sure what 00:02:08.469 --> 00:02:10.569 the sequence is, in a nutshell. 00:02:11.059 --> 00:02:12.280 You've figured it out for me. 00:02:12.559 --> 00:02:13.129 JACK: Good work. 00:02:13.659 --> 00:02:14.190 [To audience] There you go. 00:02:14.190 --> 00:02:15.519 He figures it out all on his own 00:02:15.529 --> 00:02:17.110 without any help from me at all. 00:02:17.110 --> 00:02:18.529 I’m just listening to the problem. 00:02:19.359 --> 00:02:20.860 That’s how a lot of these calls go. 00:02:20.869 --> 00:02:22.269 He just figures it out over 00:02:22.270 --> 00:02:23.649 time and then thanks me. 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:26.070 Now, as much as I hate handling 00:02:26.119 --> 00:02:28.119 these calls because they're just so 00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:30.010 mind-boggling and frustrating to me, 00:02:30.330 --> 00:02:32.820 I told him he can always call me if 00:02:32.820 --> 00:02:34.309 he ever needs tech support, because 00:02:34.459 --> 00:02:36.210 he paid for my college to get a 00:02:36.210 --> 00:02:37.689 computer engineering degree, so he 00:02:37.729 --> 00:02:40.129 legit deserves free, unlimited tech 00:02:40.129 --> 00:02:41.539 support for life because of that. 00:02:41.539 --> 00:02:43.720 There was another call a few days ago 00:02:43.720 --> 00:02:46.579 where he got a new doctor, and the doctor 00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:48.679 wanted him to fill out a twenty-five-page 00:02:48.679 --> 00:02:50.660 form of all his medical history and stuff. 00:02:50.989 --> 00:02:52.479 While he was filling it out, 00:02:52.580 --> 00:02:54.199 he couldn't figure out how to 00:02:54.209 --> 00:02:55.969 send the form to his doctor. 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:57.089 So, he called me up. 00:02:57.750 --> 00:03:00.230 DAD: So, do I hit the X and go to Inbox 00:03:02.730 --> 00:03:04.679 and then just forward that? 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:07.940 JACK: Yeah, you could send it 00:03:07.940 --> 00:03:09.530 to them in an e-mail attachment. 00:03:11.570 --> 00:03:12.030 DAD: Okay then. 00:03:12.030 --> 00:03:15.319 I’m gonna hit the X on this patient form. 00:03:15.730 --> 00:03:16.480 JACK: What patient form 00:03:16.480 --> 00:03:17.189 are you looking at? 00:03:17.709 --> 00:03:19.220 DAD: The one that they sent me. 00:03:19.699 --> 00:03:20.719 JACK: The one you filled out? 00:03:21.670 --> 00:03:22.300 DAD: Yeah. 00:03:22.450 --> 00:03:22.910 JACK: And it has…? 00:03:24.010 --> 00:03:24.280 DAD: Yeah. 00:03:25.029 --> 00:03:27.820 [Crosstalk] Now I went to my e-mail. 00:03:27.990 --> 00:03:29.099 JACK: Does the patient form have 00:03:29.099 --> 00:03:30.489 all the stuff you typed into it? 00:03:31.809 --> 00:03:33.169 DAD: The one I typed into; yes. 00:03:33.369 --> 00:03:34.290 JACK: Okay, so it’s got your 00:03:34.290 --> 00:03:35.790 data on there, and when you hit 00:03:35.799 --> 00:03:36.799 X, did it ask you to save it? 00:03:36.799 --> 00:03:38.969 DAD: Okay, stop, stop, stop. 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:42.619 I just wanted to — where I sent it 00:03:42.619 --> 00:03:44.600 to myself, and there’s nothing on it. 00:03:45.510 --> 00:03:46.390 Holy cripes. 00:03:47.750 --> 00:03:48.379 No, I’m not 00:03:51.539 --> 00:03:51.589 in this… 00:03:51.589 --> 00:03:52.079 JACK: Yeah, that’s why I’m 00:03:52.079 --> 00:03:52.139 asking you if it saved it. 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:53.429 So, can you open the form again and 00:03:53.429 --> 00:03:54.769 see if your stuff is still there? 00:03:55.449 --> 00:03:56.969 DAD: No, it’s all gone. 00:03:57.009 --> 00:03:57.870 How is it all…? 00:03:57.980 --> 00:04:00.510 Oh, you gotta push Save, probably. 00:04:01.870 --> 00:04:03.039 All the stuff, you know? 00:04:03.459 --> 00:04:04.729 JACK: Yeah, that’s one option. 00:04:04.729 --> 00:04:05.779 [To audience] This call 00:04:05.820 --> 00:04:07.529 was particularly maddening. 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:09.459 He was so frustrated that he 00:04:09.459 --> 00:04:11.246 lost all this data from filling 00:04:11.246 --> 00:04:12.939 out a twenty-five-page form. 00:04:13.239 --> 00:04:15.389 DAD: It doesn't say anywhere on here Save. 00:04:15.389 --> 00:04:17.009 I’m looking at the new form they sent 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:18.949 me, all frickin’ twenty-five pages, 00:04:19.570 --> 00:04:22.590 and nowhere does it say Save and Send. 00:04:23.979 --> 00:04:24.309 JACK: Okay. 00:04:24.309 --> 00:04:25.859 You know the — one option is to just go 00:04:25.860 --> 00:04:27.099 down to their office and say, give me 00:04:27.099 --> 00:04:28.429 the form; I’ll fill it out right here. 00:04:29.470 --> 00:04:30.899 DAD: Oh, now I gotta go get 00:04:30.899 --> 00:04:32.450 ink and I gotta print that — I 00:04:32.450 --> 00:04:33.260 gotta fill this out here. 00:04:33.310 --> 00:04:36.779 I can't do an hour doctor’s office… 00:04:37.029 --> 00:04:38.299 JACK: Well, you got nothing 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:41.809 else to do today. 00:04:41.819 --> 00:04:42.084 DAD: The prescriptions, when did 00:04:42.084 --> 00:04:43.419 you have surgery — oh, my goodness. 00:04:44.769 --> 00:04:45.069 Unbelievable. 00:04:45.239 --> 00:04:46.129 JACK: Oh, my gosh. 00:04:46.489 --> 00:04:48.149 DAD: I know, I should 00:04:48.149 --> 00:04:49.259 have called you before. 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.880 JACK: As you can see, he’s not 00:04:51.889 --> 00:04:54.519 very good at file management, and 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:56.060 I thought I could fix it for him. 00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:57.659 So, I started remotely trying 00:04:57.659 --> 00:04:58.859 to connect to his computer, his 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:00.589 home PC, to troubleshoot this. 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:02.349 But after like ten minutes of 00:05:02.349 --> 00:05:03.510 trying to connect to his home 00:05:03.510 --> 00:05:05.409 computer, I finally asked him… 00:05:05.919 --> 00:05:07.220 DAD: Modify one item… 00:05:07.330 --> 00:05:09.044 JACK: No, you're not — is this all on your 00:05:09.044 --> 00:05:10.629 iPad or is this on your home computer? 00:05:11.599 --> 00:05:12.700 DAD: No, this is on the iPad. 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:14.069 JACK: Oh, I didn't know that. 00:05:14.099 --> 00:05:14.970 I thought I was connecting 00:05:14.979 --> 00:05:15.649 to your computer. 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:18.599 That’s why I was using… 00:05:18.599 --> 00:05:18.619 DAD: Oh, no. 00:05:18.619 --> 00:05:18.669 The big computer doesn't work. 00:05:18.669 --> 00:05:19.349 JACK: If I would have known this from 00:05:19.349 --> 00:05:21.289 the get go I would have been trying a 00:05:21.289 --> 00:05:23.160 whole different set of instructions. 00:05:23.970 --> 00:05:24.879 Oi, oi, oi. 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:25.980 Oh, man. 00:05:26.330 --> 00:05:26.870 Okay. 00:05:26.919 --> 00:05:29.249 DAD: The big computer doesn't work. 00:05:30.110 --> 00:05:30.990 JACK: So now his big 00:05:30.990 --> 00:05:31.819 computer doesn't work? 00:05:31.819 --> 00:05:33.369 Now there’s three problems that 00:05:33.369 --> 00:05:34.430 we're trying to fix here, right? 00:05:34.629 --> 00:05:36.819 A lost form, a printer that’s out of 00:05:36.830 --> 00:05:37.959 ink or something like that; I don't 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:39.099 even know what the problem is there, 00:05:39.330 --> 00:05:40.959 and now his main computer doesn't work? 00:05:41.369 --> 00:05:42.280 Anyway, for some reason I 00:05:42.289 --> 00:05:43.390 couldn't even connect to his iPad 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.009 remotely on this one, and I just 00:05:46.009 --> 00:05:47.820 couldn't help him find this form. 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:49.999 I thought he might have saved it somewhere 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.570 or there might be an old revision of 00:05:51.570 --> 00:05:52.910 it somewhere that we could rescue, but 00:05:53.449 --> 00:05:55.519 this was one that I could not fix, and 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.810 he didn't figure it out on his own, so 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.090 he hung up and drove to the doctor’s 00:06:00.090 --> 00:06:01.670 office to fill out the form there. 00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:04.120 But what is the deal with this? 00:06:04.150 --> 00:06:06.040 Why does he struggle so much to 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.279 adapt to the modern world like this? 00:06:08.280 --> 00:06:09.620 He’s been using a computer every 00:06:09.620 --> 00:06:11.260 day of his life since the nineties, 00:06:11.630 --> 00:06:13.370 but his brain just can't keep up 00:06:13.370 --> 00:06:15.300 with the ever-changing aspect of it. 00:06:15.580 --> 00:06:18.610 Is it up to me to keep him afloat or 00:06:18.610 --> 00:06:20.940 is ignorance just no excuse anymore? 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:22.740 Intro: [Intro music] 00:06:25.429 --> 00:06:26.789 These are true stories from 00:06:26.789 --> 00:06:28.199 the dark side of the internet. 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:33.540 I’m Jack Rhysider. 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:36.569 This is Darknet Diaries. 00:06:51.009 --> 00:06:53.299 JACK: Okay, this is the epic story of 00:06:53.299 --> 00:06:54.900 those penetration testers who broke 00:06:54.900 --> 00:06:56.289 into the Iowa County Courthouse. 00:06:56.730 --> 00:06:58.449 I first ran this episode 00:06:58.459 --> 00:06:59.549 back in February 2020. 00:06:59.909 --> 00:07:01.129 It’s Episode 59. 00:07:01.389 --> 00:07:02.419 But I’m revisiting it 00:07:02.419 --> 00:07:03.969 today for two reasons. 00:07:04.159 --> 00:07:05.750 First, it’s just a really good story, and 00:07:05.750 --> 00:07:07.179 if you haven't heard it, you definitely 00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:08.209 should be listening to it, and if you 00:07:08.209 --> 00:07:09.269 already heard it, you should listen 00:07:09.269 --> 00:07:10.519 to it again, because it’s that good. 00:07:10.869 --> 00:07:13.519 But second, a lot has happened since 00:07:13.540 --> 00:07:15.239 I posted that episode originally, 00:07:15.650 --> 00:07:17.250 and I caught up with the two people 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:19.639 involved at DEFCON last month to 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:21.430 give us a full update on what has 00:07:21.430 --> 00:07:23.729 happened since, and it’s crazy. 00:07:23.989 --> 00:07:26.010 So, first I’m gonna replay the 00:07:26.010 --> 00:07:28.070 original episode right now, and then 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:29.610 in the last twenty minutes or so of 00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:31.100 this episode, we are going to get an 00:07:31.159 --> 00:07:33.650 update to this story, and it’s really 00:07:33.650 --> 00:07:35.349 interesting, so stick around to the end. 00:07:35.619 --> 00:07:36.379 Alright, let’s go. 00:07:37.099 --> 00:07:38.500 Alright, so let’s jump in and 00:07:38.509 --> 00:07:39.800 meet our guests for this episode. 00:07:40.209 --> 00:07:41.470 JUSTIN: My name is Justin Wynn. 00:07:41.479 --> 00:07:42.949 I’m a senior security consultant 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:44.239 with Coalfire Systems. 00:07:44.299 --> 00:07:46.919 I am an offensive penetration tester who 00:07:46.919 --> 00:07:48.729 specializes in physical security, which 00:07:48.729 --> 00:07:50.930 often entails social engineering, physical 00:07:50.930 --> 00:07:52.820 exploits to gain access to facilities. 00:07:53.509 --> 00:07:55.279 GARY: Yeah, my name is Gary DeMercurio, 00:07:55.379 --> 00:07:57.760 and pretty much mirror everything Justin 00:07:57.760 --> 00:08:00.629 said, except I’m a managing senior and 00:08:00.629 --> 00:08:02.809 I run the Bellevue office in Washington. 00:08:03.209 --> 00:08:04.199 JACK: I know they said it quickly, 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:05.959 but the important part here is that 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.039 they’re both penetration testers. 00:08:08.259 --> 00:08:09.109 GARY: I’ve been at Coalfire for 00:08:09.110 --> 00:08:10.174 six years and I’ve probably been 00:08:10.174 --> 00:08:11.740 in the military another three. 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:13.499 So, I’ve got about nine years of 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:14.959 experience of physical pen testing. 00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:15.840 JUSTIN: Right. 00:08:15.840 --> 00:08:17.590 I’ve been with Coalfire for over 00:08:17.590 --> 00:08:19.119 four years, so physical penetration 00:08:19.119 --> 00:08:20.300 testing for over four years. 00:08:20.709 --> 00:08:22.059 JACK: They’ve come here today to share 00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:24.240 some penetration testing stories with us. 00:08:24.619 --> 00:08:26.359 Now, even though these two live on 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.540 opposite corners of the US, one Florida, 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:30.459 one Washington State, they team up 00:08:30.459 --> 00:08:32.899 together on assignments all over the US. 00:08:33.389 --> 00:08:35.239 The assignment is typically like this; 00:08:35.599 --> 00:08:37.670 a company will call up Coalfire, the 00:08:37.670 --> 00:08:39.649 company that Justin and Gary work for, 00:08:39.649 --> 00:08:41.819 and ask for a security assessment. 00:08:42.289 --> 00:08:43.779 They might want someone to test their 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:45.930 website to see if it’s secure or do a 00:08:45.930 --> 00:08:47.749 password assessment to see how strong 00:08:47.750 --> 00:08:49.309 the users’ passwords in the network 00:08:49.309 --> 00:08:51.989 are, or conduct some compliance checks. 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:53.540 This is all to make the 00:08:53.540 --> 00:08:54.880 company more secure. 00:08:55.770 --> 00:08:57.980 [Music] The Iowa Judicial Branch 00:08:58.260 --> 00:09:00.150 is a state department of Iowa. 00:09:00.370 --> 00:09:01.740 It’s a government facility, and 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:03.329 specifically they handle the court 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:06.170 cases and such within the state of Iowa. 00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:08.860 So, it was the Iowa Judicial Branch 00:09:08.860 --> 00:09:10.680 that called up Coalfire and asked the 00:09:10.680 --> 00:09:12.730 company to come and do a penetration 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:16.050 test on the courthouses themselves. 00:09:17.010 --> 00:09:18.169 JUSTIN: It was full-scope 00:09:18.180 --> 00:09:19.400 for a team penetration test. 00:09:19.400 --> 00:09:21.269 So, it included things l external 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:24.349 pen testing, web application testing, 00:09:24.349 --> 00:09:25.869 internal testing, which was to be done 00:09:25.869 --> 00:09:27.609 after we had gone on site to see if we 00:09:27.609 --> 00:09:29.410 could gain access into their internal 00:09:29.410 --> 00:09:31.780 network and kinda do a real-life scenario. 00:09:31.780 --> 00:09:32.770 Like, can you gain 00:09:32.770 --> 00:09:34.040 access to our facilities? 00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:36.690 Can you plug in a — what we call a 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:38.379 drone, a remote device, to be able to 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:39.809 access that network later once we’re 00:09:39.809 --> 00:09:42.140 offsite, and then conduct the internal 00:09:42.140 --> 00:09:43.939 network penetration test from there? 00:09:43.939 --> 00:09:45.089 Throughout the whole time, 00:09:45.189 --> 00:09:46.019 we’re contacting with the 00:09:46.020 --> 00:09:48.779 guys at iowacourts.gov. 00:09:48.829 --> 00:09:50.659 JACK: Justin and Gary get assigned 00:09:50.660 --> 00:09:52.830 to conduct the physical penetration 00:09:52.830 --> 00:09:54.599 test on the courthouses together. 00:09:54.849 --> 00:09:56.399 They’ve been working together for four 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.379 years on doing physical penetration 00:09:58.379 --> 00:09:59.930 tests just like this, so they’re used 00:09:59.930 --> 00:10:01.500 to each other and do good work together. 00:10:02.489 --> 00:10:04.130 Actually, I have a copy of the rules 00:10:04.130 --> 00:10:05.539 of engagement here in front of me. 00:10:05.580 --> 00:10:06.399 So, let’s see. 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:07.860 Okay, yeah, so this is for the 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:10.180 Iowa Judicial Branch, and they’re 00:10:10.180 --> 00:10:12.110 specifically asking for a physical 00:10:12.110 --> 00:10:14.239 penetration test at five locations. 00:10:14.290 --> 00:10:16.500 There’s a judicial branch, the Polk 00:10:16.509 --> 00:10:18.589 County Courthouse, the Dallas County 00:10:18.589 --> 00:10:20.360 Courthouse, a juvenile justice 00:10:20.369 --> 00:10:22.090 center, and the Criminal Court Area. 00:10:22.339 --> 00:10:24.090 Five locations, and the window to 00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:25.549 test the security on these buildings 00:10:25.569 --> 00:10:27.409 is between Sunday, September 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:28.760 8, and Friday, September 13. 00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:31.379 So, they had a week to do this assessment, 00:10:31.489 --> 00:10:33.680 and this was last year in 2019. 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:35.279 The rules of engagement 00:10:35.309 --> 00:10:36.589 list out a ton of things. 00:10:36.779 --> 00:10:37.679 Do they have permission to 00:10:37.680 --> 00:10:39.439 tailgate behind someone to get in? 00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:39.880 Yes. 00:10:40.089 --> 00:10:40.869 Do they have permission 00:10:40.869 --> 00:10:41.999 to dig in the dumpsters? 00:10:42.009 --> 00:10:42.659 Yes. 00:10:42.739 --> 00:10:43.899 Does Coalfire have permission 00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:45.270 to use lockpicks to get in? 00:10:45.299 --> 00:10:45.779 Yes. 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:47.369 Does Coalfire have permission to 00:10:47.369 --> 00:10:49.340 plug USB drives into computers 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:50.299 that they get access to? 00:10:50.449 --> 00:10:51.059 Yes. 00:10:51.809 --> 00:10:52.919 Does Coalfire have 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.209 permission to disable alarms? 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:56.130 No. 00:10:56.139 --> 00:10:57.899 The goal here looks like they’re 00:10:57.899 --> 00:10:59.260 trying to get into the building, 00:10:59.260 --> 00:11:00.859 plant rogue devices, look around to 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:02.309 see if there’s any security problems 00:11:02.309 --> 00:11:04.129 like unlocked computers, passwords 00:11:04.129 --> 00:11:05.279 written down, that kind of thing. 00:11:05.690 --> 00:11:07.079 So, okay, the rules of 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:08.559 engagement seem pretty clear. 00:11:08.569 --> 00:11:09.739 JUSTIN: So, that gets filled out before 00:11:09.739 --> 00:11:11.309 we’re on the call, and then as we’re 00:11:11.319 --> 00:11:13.399 going through that with the client, the 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:15.200 project manager is taking notes in there. 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:17.009 So, you may see things like, okay, at 00:11:17.009 --> 00:11:18.639 the JB building we discussed with the 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.740 client Floors 3 and 4 are specifically 00:11:21.750 --> 00:11:23.399 off-limits during daytime hours 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:25.470 because there was gonna be the Supreme 00:11:25.470 --> 00:11:26.969 Court convening, and they obviously 00:11:26.970 --> 00:11:28.179 didn’t want us interrupting that. 00:11:28.179 --> 00:11:29.590 So, part of that — we’re discussing 00:11:29.590 --> 00:11:30.579 with the client on the phone, 00:11:30.739 --> 00:11:32.270 yeah, during the daytime do not 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:34.930 touch, do not go on Floors 3 and 4. 00:11:34.930 --> 00:11:35.759 Then we enumerate with them; 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:36.680 we’re like, okay, well, what 00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:38.009 if we’re in there after hours? 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:39.350 What do you want to see from there? 00:11:39.379 --> 00:11:40.379 Is that open access? 00:11:40.419 --> 00:11:42.069 Like, yeah, that’d be more 00:11:42.069 --> 00:11:43.189 acceptable, but you know what? 00:11:43.190 --> 00:11:44.729 Let’s play it safe and just show 00:11:44.729 --> 00:11:46.320 us to see if you can breach the 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:49.059 doors that enter on that floor. 00:11:49.059 --> 00:11:50.510 So, the contract will say something 00:11:50.510 --> 00:11:53.320 like, okay, JB building, Floors 3 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:56.010 and 4 are off-limits, and you see how 00:11:56.010 --> 00:11:57.950 big those fields are in that table. 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:00.360 So, it’s really like the bare information 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.239 that the project manager wants in there. 00:12:02.239 --> 00:12:04.250 Then we have a good understanding 00:12:04.309 --> 00:12:05.480 what the client — of what 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:06.729 they’re actually looking for. 00:12:07.030 --> 00:12:08.379 JACK: So, actually, this rules of 00:12:08.379 --> 00:12:10.089 engagement document I’m looking at is 00:12:10.090 --> 00:12:12.779 twenty-eight pages long, and this field 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:14.730 he’s talking about is super small. 00:12:14.789 --> 00:12:15.840 All these things you cover on 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:17.659 the call in great detail only get 00:12:17.660 --> 00:12:19.439 jotted down with a couple words. 00:12:19.459 --> 00:12:21.870 It’s not fully documented in the 00:12:21.870 --> 00:12:23.580 scope of work or rules of engagement. 00:12:23.709 --> 00:12:25.760 GARY: These conversations are so granular. 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:28.330 If we were to take and actually take 00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:29.770 the conversation that we had on the 00:12:29.770 --> 00:12:33.320 phone and write it out and put it in 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.079 a contract, the contract would be… 00:12:35.079 --> 00:12:35.879 JUSTIN: This — we couldn’t work. 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:36.990 GARY: A hundred pages long. 00:12:38.669 --> 00:12:40.389 The amount of discussion that we have 00:12:40.389 --> 00:12:42.110 on what it is exactly they want us to 00:12:42.119 --> 00:12:46.109 do, it would be unfeasible as far as a 00:12:46.570 --> 00:12:48.509 rules of engagement would be concerned. 00:12:48.509 --> 00:12:51.170 So, again, that’s why 00:12:51.170 --> 00:12:52.529 we have the phone call. 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.039 That’s exactly why we have, so we can 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:55.739 say this is what we understand, what 00:12:55.739 --> 00:12:57.290 exactly do you guys want, and then we’re 00:12:57.290 --> 00:12:58.459 all on the same page when we show up. 00:12:58.459 --> 00:12:59.750 JUSTIN: They’re like, we’re gonna be there 00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:01.599 at night, and the client was like, yes, we 00:13:01.599 --> 00:13:04.009 want you to focus on after-hours testing. 00:13:04.029 --> 00:13:06.129 So, a lot of that stuff unfortunately, 00:13:06.129 --> 00:13:07.670 which we never would have predicted 00:13:07.670 --> 00:13:10.559 or seen coming at us, we didn’t 00:13:10.619 --> 00:13:12.459 capture in that document, which 00:13:12.479 --> 00:13:13.819 would have been great if we did, but… 00:13:14.269 --> 00:13:16.099 JACK: The Iowa Judicial Branch has 00:13:16.099 --> 00:13:17.519 actually worked with Coalfire before 00:13:17.529 --> 00:13:18.930 to do other penetration tests. 00:13:18.930 --> 00:13:20.799 So, everyone seems to agree on what 00:13:20.809 --> 00:13:23.210 should be conducted and what’s expected 00:13:23.210 --> 00:13:24.779 here, and an agreement was made. 00:13:25.459 --> 00:13:26.879 They create what’s called a 00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:28.219 get-out-of-jail-free card. 00:13:28.569 --> 00:13:30.279 This is a slip of paper that lists 00:13:30.309 --> 00:13:32.409 all the people who hired Coalfire 00:13:32.419 --> 00:13:34.089 to do this penetration test. 00:13:34.379 --> 00:13:36.329 This is their information security 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.099 officer, their chief information 00:13:38.099 --> 00:13:40.469 officer, and the infrastructure manager. 00:13:40.729 --> 00:13:42.320 These are three people who worked 00:13:42.329 --> 00:13:44.119 in Iowa’s Judicial Branch who 00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:46.229 contracted Coalfire to do these tests. 00:13:46.899 --> 00:13:48.349 This get-out-of-jail-free card 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:50.440 has their names and phone numbers 00:13:50.489 --> 00:13:52.079 listed with their signatures. 00:13:52.529 --> 00:13:54.779 So, if these guys get caught, 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:56.260 they can ultimately show this 00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:57.829 to get out of any real trouble. 00:13:58.250 --> 00:13:59.679 JUSTIN: We touched down Sunday night. 00:13:59.959 --> 00:14:02.239 We entered in a facility. 00:14:02.239 --> 00:14:03.029 So, I don’t want to provide 00:14:03.029 --> 00:14:04.209 too many details that haven’t 00:14:04.209 --> 00:14:05.989 been already disclosed. 00:14:06.139 --> 00:14:06.760 JACK: Alright, fine. 00:14:06.789 --> 00:14:07.789 Unfortunately we’re not gonna be 00:14:07.789 --> 00:14:09.579 able to go into every detail of what 00:14:09.589 --> 00:14:10.830 happened, because I don’t want to 00:14:10.839 --> 00:14:12.989 expose any actual vulnerabilities over 00:14:12.989 --> 00:14:14.869 there at the Iowa County Courthouses. 00:14:15.289 --> 00:14:16.769 But let me give you an idea 00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:17.980 of what they’re capable of. 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:20.579 [Music] First of all, these guys 00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:21.789 mentioned that they sometimes 00:14:21.789 --> 00:14:23.619 use an under-the-door tool. 00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:25.789 So, let me tell you what this tool does. 00:14:26.009 --> 00:14:28.039 It almost looks like a bent fishing rod. 00:14:28.119 --> 00:14:30.709 It’s long, four feet, metal rod, 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:32.210 and it has a string on the end. 00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:34.609 This is for doors that have a handle, that 00:14:34.610 --> 00:14:36.780 when you push down, it opens the door. 00:14:37.239 --> 00:14:39.750 So, you try to slide this tool under the 00:14:39.789 --> 00:14:42.689 door, and then you pull it up using that 00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:44.700 string to get it close to the handle. 00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:46.509 You try to hook it onto the handle 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:48.120 from on the other side of the door, 00:14:48.379 --> 00:14:49.889 and when you do get it hooked on 00:14:49.889 --> 00:14:51.960 there, you pull down with both the 00:14:51.970 --> 00:14:54.180 string and the rod and it pulls the 00:14:54.180 --> 00:14:55.830 handle down, and it opens the door. 00:14:55.830 --> 00:14:56.270 It’s actually pretty simple. 00:14:56.270 --> 00:14:57.550 It’s actually pretty simple. 00:14:58.160 --> 00:14:59.989 On top of this, Gary is also 00:15:00.059 --> 00:15:01.590 really good at lock-picking. 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:03.400 So, he’ll certainly have these 00:15:03.420 --> 00:15:04.730 in his pockets and ready to 00:15:04.730 --> 00:15:06.130 use them whenever he needs to. 00:15:06.609 --> 00:15:08.669 But with lock-picking, it might take 00:15:08.670 --> 00:15:10.340 you a while, maybe ten minutes, maybe 00:15:10.340 --> 00:15:11.890 thirty minutes to get a lock open. 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.379 So, it just takes more skill and time. 00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:16.099 GARY: If you're talking about my 00:15:16.099 --> 00:15:18.339 favorite, because I find this a 00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:21.399 lot in commercial buildings — is 00:15:21.429 --> 00:15:24.770 going to be crash bar doors, right? 00:15:24.809 --> 00:15:25.919 Either the ones that come down 00:15:25.959 --> 00:15:27.309 like the old high-school gym-type 00:15:27.309 --> 00:15:29.019 doors or the ones that you just 00:15:29.049 --> 00:15:30.569 push and go into the door itself… 00:15:30.569 --> 00:15:31.640 JUSTIN: A Von Duprin. 00:15:31.689 --> 00:15:32.220 GARY: Thank you. 00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:34.739 They’ll have the latch on 00:15:34.739 --> 00:15:35.699 the inside of the door. 00:15:36.090 --> 00:15:37.279 So, you can't really use 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:38.220 an under-the-door tool. 00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:39.929 They make some tools if you have 00:15:39.930 --> 00:15:42.040 doors, double doors that come 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:44.229 together without the — what’s 00:15:44.230 --> 00:15:45.229 it called in the middle there? 00:15:45.459 --> 00:15:46.229 JUSTIN: The mullion. 00:15:46.229 --> 00:15:47.910 GARY: The mullion; is that what it is? 00:15:47.930 --> 00:15:48.079 JUSTIN: Yeah. 00:15:48.079 --> 00:15:49.099 There’s another term for it, too. 00:15:49.099 --> 00:15:50.899 But there’s an — there’s a bar that runs 00:15:50.930 --> 00:15:52.349 in-between the doors where you're not 00:15:52.349 --> 00:15:53.530 supposed to be able to insert tools. 00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:53.899 GARY: Right. 00:15:53.899 --> 00:15:55.329 So, you'll see a lot of those 00:15:55.330 --> 00:15:56.670 doors that don't have that 00:15:56.670 --> 00:15:58.810 bar that separates the doors. 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:00.240 Those are really easy to get into. 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:02.049 You just — you stick a tool inside, you 00:16:02.049 --> 00:16:03.679 turn it to the left or the right, and 00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:05.019 then you pull and it opens the door. 00:16:05.379 --> 00:16:07.454 What we have come up with that we 00:16:07.454 --> 00:16:09.669 like to use that’s absolutely my 00:16:09.689 --> 00:16:11.469 favorite tool that is literally in my 00:16:11.470 --> 00:16:13.849 backpack right now is a cutting board. 00:16:14.209 --> 00:16:16.030 It’s a really, really thin, plastic 00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:17.369 cutting board that I bought from Amazon, 00:16:17.369 --> 00:16:20.149 and I cut a notch in this cutting board. 00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:23.309 So, for crash bar doors, especially 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:24.470 the single ones where you can't see 00:16:24.470 --> 00:16:26.269 anything, you stick it through the 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.050 door, on the edge of the door, and 00:16:28.050 --> 00:16:30.559 then once you feed it through the door, 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:32.659 you pull it down until that cutting 00:16:32.659 --> 00:16:34.849 board rests on top of the latch. 00:16:35.409 --> 00:16:37.559 Then you'll apply pressure down on 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:38.739 that latch and you start pulling the 00:16:38.819 --> 00:16:40.629 cutting board towards you outward 00:16:40.629 --> 00:16:42.929 from the door until that notch that 00:16:42.930 --> 00:16:45.549 you cut falls on top of the latch. 00:16:45.829 --> 00:16:47.529 So, now what you've got is you've got 00:16:47.529 --> 00:16:49.139 the back-half of that cutting board 00:16:49.149 --> 00:16:51.060 on the other side of the latch on 00:16:51.060 --> 00:16:53.399 the inside of the door, and you pull. 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:55.180 If that latch doesn't have the 00:16:56.509 --> 00:16:57.699 deadlatch latching it properly, 00:16:57.790 --> 00:16:58.880 you will open the door every time. 00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:00.849 JUSTIN: So, typically when we’re talking 00:17:00.849 --> 00:17:02.929 about door bypasses, we're inserting 00:17:02.949 --> 00:17:05.569 a tool through whatever method that we 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:07.179 can, whether it’s in the inner-leaving 00:17:07.179 --> 00:17:08.640 double-door system, so you can go 00:17:08.649 --> 00:17:10.710 in-between the doors, or if there’s a gap 00:17:10.750 --> 00:17:12.629 underneath the door, insert a tool there 00:17:12.629 --> 00:17:14.509 and start manipulating some mechanisms 00:17:14.569 --> 00:17:16.099 on the other side of the door, whether 00:17:16.099 --> 00:17:18.509 that’s the Von Duprin crash bar or 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:20.979 the latching mechanism itself or some 00:17:20.979 --> 00:17:23.389 peripherals like a request-to-exit sensor. 00:17:23.699 --> 00:17:27.074 GARY: But I can, what, 80%, if you had 00:17:27.074 --> 00:17:29.649 to put a number on it — 80% of doors 00:17:29.679 --> 00:17:31.919 can be bypassed by bypassing the latch. 00:17:32.059 --> 00:17:32.369 JUSTIN: Right. 00:17:32.429 --> 00:17:33.389 GARY: Just by manipulating 00:17:33.389 --> 00:17:34.409 the latch itself, you can 00:17:34.410 --> 00:17:36.820 get into 80% of facilities. 00:17:37.429 --> 00:17:39.189 JACK: Just coincidentally, can you 00:17:39.190 --> 00:17:40.609 tell us where you guys are this — or 00:17:40.610 --> 00:17:41.779 what you guys are doing this week? 00:17:41.919 --> 00:17:43.439 JUSTIN: This week we're doing three 00:17:43.459 --> 00:17:46.009 two-day courses comprised of physical 00:17:46.009 --> 00:17:48.259 access control systems, alarm bypass 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:50.560 techniques, and then safe manipulation. 00:17:50.570 --> 00:17:51.590 So, really kind of an 00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:53.020 action-packed week for us. 00:17:53.020 --> 00:17:54.340 That’s all the kinda juicy 00:17:54.340 --> 00:17:55.780 James Bond-style stuff. 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.110 JACK: So, you can imagine what kind 00:17:57.110 --> 00:17:58.710 of bag of tools these guys have 00:17:58.719 --> 00:18:00.379 to break into buildings to carry 00:18:00.380 --> 00:18:01.840 out assessments like this, right? 00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:03.279 I mean, they've got so many 00:18:03.290 --> 00:18:04.670 things, I’m surprised that TSA 00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:05.929 even allowed them on the plane. 00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:07.729 So, even though they can't get into 00:18:07.730 --> 00:18:09.590 specifics about what tricks they used 00:18:09.590 --> 00:18:11.629 to bypass the doors of these buildings, 00:18:11.959 --> 00:18:13.400 you can take a pretty good guess that 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.599 they've got many options they can use to 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:17.370 get into each door that they run into. 00:18:17.619 --> 00:18:18.739 JUSTIN: So, pretty much we walked 00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:21.319 up, assessed the perimeter and kinda 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:22.500 matched up with what we were seeing 00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:23.960 on Google Maps, things like that, 00:18:24.469 --> 00:18:26.469 and gain entry to that first facility 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:28.550 on Sunday night to Monday morning. 00:18:28.959 --> 00:18:30.059 GARY: When we get into a place, 00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:31.379 it depends on — it also depends 00:18:31.379 --> 00:18:33.540 on who, who is attacking, right? 00:18:33.889 --> 00:18:36.789 So, if Justin is attacking, for 00:18:36.789 --> 00:18:38.399 instance, and he gets into the door 00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:40.360 and he’s able to get in really, really 00:18:40.360 --> 00:18:43.089 quick, there is a certain — you know, 00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:44.709 he’s your teammate, so you're proud. 00:18:44.709 --> 00:18:45.339 You're like, wow, dude, 00:18:45.339 --> 00:18:46.430 that was really fast. 00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:48.520 Like, that was really, really fast. 00:18:48.829 --> 00:18:49.809 Justin and I have been working 00:18:49.809 --> 00:18:50.959 together since he’s been here. 00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:52.649 So, you get to see this progression 00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:54.179 of somebody when he’s on his first 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:55.380 red team or second red team, I think 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:57.400 it was, with a guy, and then when 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.780 he’s on his fifteenth red team, and 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:01.199 you're like, dude, you're getting 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:02.889 really, really, really good at this. 00:19:03.129 --> 00:19:03.389 JUSTIN: Yeah. 00:19:03.459 --> 00:19:04.779 GARY: But you get to see that progression. 00:19:04.779 --> 00:19:07.329 So, there’s — it’s a lot more personal, 00:19:07.339 --> 00:19:09.480 if you will, when you're on a red team 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.549 with somebody that you've been working 00:19:10.549 --> 00:19:11.844 with for years and years and years. 00:19:11.844 --> 00:19:12.859 JUSTIN: I was gonna say, I’m tearing up 00:19:12.869 --> 00:19:15.579 over here, 'cause Gary is honestly — like, 00:19:15.580 --> 00:19:16.860 I do need to take a moment to thank him. 00:19:17.010 --> 00:19:18.899 He taught me so much of what I know. 00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:20.669 Like, yeah, of course Deviant and some 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.359 huge stars in the industry — you can learn 00:19:22.360 --> 00:19:24.429 so much by watching YouTube and learn how 00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:26.859 to assess the security of your facilities. 00:19:26.889 --> 00:19:29.059 But Gary was the first guy who handed 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:30.670 me the under-the-door tool and taught me 00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:31.860 how to use this when I didn't even know 00:19:31.860 --> 00:19:33.539 which end of the stick to be holding 00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:34.989 onto, which is a very common thing when 00:19:34.989 --> 00:19:36.999 people are given an under-the-door tool. 00:19:37.169 --> 00:19:39.169 JACK: So, they get in, they look around 00:19:39.169 --> 00:19:41.089 for ways to plug in a drone and to 00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:43.079 take any photos of security problems 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:44.429 that they want to put in their report. 00:19:44.809 --> 00:19:46.559 They even found the desk of the person 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:48.390 who hired them for this engagement. 00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:50.189 So, they leave a little present on 00:19:50.189 --> 00:19:51.859 his desk to prove that they got in 00:19:51.879 --> 00:19:54.629 overnight and got access to his desk. 00:19:54.999 --> 00:19:56.099 JUSTIN: But we had gained access 00:19:56.129 --> 00:19:57.269 and we left a calling card. 00:19:57.270 --> 00:19:58.750 I just left a business card on one of 00:19:58.750 --> 00:20:00.709 the point-of-contact’s desk to the point 00:20:00.709 --> 00:20:02.489 where the next day he had e-mailed me and 00:20:02.489 --> 00:20:04.620 said, I guess I owe you a congratulations. 00:20:04.940 --> 00:20:06.369 We're going back and forth over e-mail. 00:20:06.369 --> 00:20:08.630 I’m like, yeah, we found some really 00:20:08.630 --> 00:20:11.780 severe vulnerabilities that — minor fixes 00:20:11.780 --> 00:20:13.459 that you guys can use to dramatically 00:20:13.459 --> 00:20:15.670 improve the security of this facility. 00:20:16.239 --> 00:20:17.159 So, going back and forth 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:18.409 through things like that. 00:20:18.419 --> 00:20:19.480 So, already in contact with the 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:21.069 client, going through things like that. 00:20:21.879 --> 00:20:23.200 Then, yeah, Tuesday rolls around. 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:27.729 JACK: [Music] So, it’s Tuesday night after 00:20:27.729 --> 00:20:29.329 the courthouse has closed for the day. 00:20:29.379 --> 00:20:31.219 They get up to the building and see it 00:20:31.229 --> 00:20:34.249 has two sets of locked doors to get into. 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:35.269 GARY: We make it through the first 00:20:35.269 --> 00:20:37.520 door really easy, and then the second 00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:39.369 door — we could have used the same 00:20:39.369 --> 00:20:41.199 attack, but we were trying other things. 00:20:41.259 --> 00:20:41.629 JUSTIN: Right. 00:20:41.830 --> 00:20:43.029 GARY: And we weren’t having a lot of 00:20:43.029 --> 00:20:44.459 luck with the other things, but we didn't 00:20:44.459 --> 00:20:45.670 really want to try the first attack 00:20:45.679 --> 00:20:47.140 'cause we wanted to see if we could use 00:20:47.630 --> 00:20:49.400 different techniques to get in, right? 00:20:49.870 --> 00:20:52.060 We found other areas that we can attack, 00:20:52.060 --> 00:20:53.870 so we went around a different area and 00:20:53.870 --> 00:20:55.590 we were working on — Justin was working 00:20:55.590 --> 00:20:56.960 on one door and I was working on another. 00:20:57.090 --> 00:20:57.850 I don't know, did you 00:20:57.850 --> 00:20:59.240 ever get that door opened? 00:20:59.240 --> 00:20:59.960 JUSTIN: I picked the lock. 00:21:00.389 --> 00:21:00.860 GARY: Multiple… 00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:02.259 JUSTIN: Yeah, like each way, and 00:21:02.539 --> 00:21:03.969 nah, something else was going on. 00:21:03.969 --> 00:21:04.849 There was a secondary 00:21:05.090 --> 00:21:05.620 latching mechanism there. 00:21:05.620 --> 00:21:06.829 GARY: That we couldn't see or something. 00:21:09.379 --> 00:21:11.949 I ended up picking two doors in a row to 00:21:11.949 --> 00:21:13.780 a courtroom, and then we ended up making 00:21:13.780 --> 00:21:18.660 it in, and then we ended up getting in. 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:19.749 We saw the security 00:21:21.779 --> 00:21:22.609 cameras. 00:21:22.639 --> 00:21:24.209 JACK: Now, when they say they found 00:21:24.209 --> 00:21:26.020 the security cameras, what they mean is 00:21:26.020 --> 00:21:27.659 they found the room that you can sit in 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:29.950 to watch all the security cameras and 00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:31.180 what’s going on in the whole building. 00:21:31.180 --> 00:21:33.079 GARY: Guard desk; it wasn't really a room. 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:34.780 It just — they had security cameras 00:21:34.780 --> 00:21:37.080 at the guard desk, which was right 00:21:37.469 --> 00:21:38.910 — which was actually the sheriff’s 00:21:38.959 --> 00:21:41.350 desk during the day that sits there. 00:21:41.350 --> 00:21:42.330 So, they've got a sheriff 00:21:42.330 --> 00:21:43.609 that — or a deputy sheriff… 00:21:43.610 --> 00:21:43.900 JUSTIN: Right. 00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:45.560 GARY: That monitor or that’s there 00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:47.830 on duty for the courthouse that 00:21:47.830 --> 00:21:51.130 sits in this — it’s almost like a… 00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:52.619 JUSTIN: Eh, a front desk, almost. 00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:53.040 GARY: Yeah, like a front desk-type 00:21:53.040 --> 00:21:56.479 thing, where a receptionist 00:21:56.479 --> 00:21:57.509 would sit in a company. 00:21:58.180 --> 00:21:59.889 So, the deputy sheriff sits there, and it 00:21:59.889 --> 00:22:01.660 has access to all these different cameras. 00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:02.079 It would show the 00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:04.239 courtrooms or office areas. 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.550 So, at night when you got your security 00:22:06.550 --> 00:22:08.130 guard there who isn't a deputy sheriff, 00:22:08.570 --> 00:22:10.920 they will also use those same cameras 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:11.999 that the deputy sheriff normally sits 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.720 at to check the different offices 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:14.710 to make sure that nobody’s in there, 00:22:14.710 --> 00:22:16.030 the lights aren't on, and so forth. 00:22:16.030 --> 00:22:16.859 JACK: So, one of the first things they 00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:18.659 do is look at all the cameras to see 00:22:18.659 --> 00:22:20.649 if anyone was there, and they did, 00:22:20.659 --> 00:22:22.049 in fact, see someone in the building. 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:23.099 Somebody was making their 00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:25.099 rounds, checking on the place. 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:27.249 It looked like a security guard. 00:22:27.689 --> 00:22:29.539 They made sure to keep a close eye 00:22:29.540 --> 00:22:31.120 on him while sneaking around this 00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:32.899 building, and at the same time they 00:22:32.899 --> 00:22:35.020 took careful notes on what blind 00:22:35.020 --> 00:22:36.700 spots there were with the security 00:22:36.709 --> 00:22:38.709 cameras so when the guard got back, 00:22:38.750 --> 00:22:40.850 they could stay in those blind spots. 00:22:41.320 --> 00:22:43.239 As the guard went to a far end of 00:22:43.239 --> 00:22:44.700 the building, they started exploring 00:22:44.709 --> 00:22:46.999 around, looking for security problems 00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:49.820 and being careful to stay very quiet. 00:22:50.549 --> 00:22:52.529 As the two of them wandered around 00:22:52.529 --> 00:22:54.629 this courthouse, they opened 00:22:54.750 --> 00:22:57.139 a door which tripped an alarm. 00:22:57.139 --> 00:22:58.579 [Alarm ringing] Suddenly the doors were 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:00.289 buzzing and the alarms were sounding. 00:23:00.289 --> 00:23:02.299 GARY: [Music] What had happened is 00:23:02.300 --> 00:23:03.749 they have — they basically have a 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:05.590 holding room next to the courtroom, 00:23:06.149 --> 00:23:08.259 and both doors lock in that room. 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:09.759 So, whether or not that is for 00:23:10.069 --> 00:23:11.700 criminals that are in there to see 00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:13.390 if they can get released for jail or 00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:14.599 if it’s for somebody that’s accused 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:16.419 of a crime, whatever — not sure what 00:23:16.419 --> 00:23:18.319 it’s for, but both doors are locked. 00:23:18.959 --> 00:23:19.979 So, because I didn't want to have to 00:23:19.979 --> 00:23:23.289 pick the door on the way out in case 00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:24.979 it locked behind me, I propped it open. 00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:28.939 Because of the — again, an assumption, 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:30.009 because of the people that are [inaudible] 00:23:30.009 --> 00:23:31.189 there, they make sure that if that door 00:23:31.189 --> 00:23:32.969 is left open, that an alarm sounds. 00:23:32.970 --> 00:23:34.519 So, when I made it through both doors 00:23:34.639 --> 00:23:36.509 and I went to the next room which 00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:38.499 had the guard post in it, that’s 00:23:38.499 --> 00:23:39.530 when I heard the alarm, and then 00:23:39.530 --> 00:23:40.899 we ended up figuring out, oh, it’s 00:23:40.899 --> 00:23:42.689 because we propped the doors open. 00:23:42.689 --> 00:23:43.189 Let’s close that; duh. 00:23:43.690 --> 00:23:44.789 JACK: They were able to complete their 00:23:44.790 --> 00:23:46.680 security assessment and get out of there. 00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:48.930 The guard never found them and maybe 00:23:48.970 --> 00:23:50.610 didn't even hear that alarm at all. 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:52.310 But another successful 00:23:52.310 --> 00:23:53.300 mission for these two. 00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:54.480 GARY: But that was fun. 00:23:54.770 --> 00:23:55.260 JUSTIN: Oh, it was a great time. 00:23:55.270 --> 00:23:55.530 GARY: Yeah. 00:23:56.370 --> 00:23:57.889 We were pooping and snooping and we 00:23:57.889 --> 00:23:59.520 were dodging the security guards, 00:23:59.520 --> 00:24:00.630 and he was looking at the cameras 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:01.769 and we were hiding out and stuff. 00:24:01.769 --> 00:24:03.270 It was good stuff. 00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:04.970 JACK: They got through the courthouse 00:24:04.970 --> 00:24:06.499 pretty quick, and the night was 00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:07.780 still young, so they decided to hit 00:24:07.780 --> 00:24:09.330 up a second courthouse that night. 00:24:09.609 --> 00:24:11.300 This one was actually the Dallas 00:24:11.300 --> 00:24:13.509 County Courthouse in Adel, Iowa. 00:24:13.889 --> 00:24:15.444 Let me describe the scene to you. 00:24:15.444 --> 00:24:16.980 [Music] The town of Adel is small. 00:24:17.009 --> 00:24:18.709 It has like, 5,000 people 00:24:18.709 --> 00:24:19.750 living there at most. 00:24:20.070 --> 00:24:21.169 It’s cute, though. 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:23.830 It has a historic Main Street 00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:25.390 USA type of feel to it. 00:24:25.750 --> 00:24:27.429 In their downtown area the roads are 00:24:27.459 --> 00:24:29.629 covered in a red cobblestone brick, 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:31.809 which gives it a more rustic feel, and 00:24:31.809 --> 00:24:33.399 all the buildings downtown look like 00:24:33.399 --> 00:24:35.139 they could all be historic buildings. 00:24:35.809 --> 00:24:36.909 The most prominent building 00:24:36.919 --> 00:24:38.720 in all of Adel is the Dallas 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.599 County Courthouse, their target. 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:43.849 It was built in 1902, which absolutely 00:24:43.849 --> 00:24:46.370 makes it historic; three stories with 00:24:46.370 --> 00:24:48.120 those pointy spires on the top of 00:24:48.120 --> 00:24:50.059 each corner, and there’s a large clock 00:24:50.059 --> 00:24:51.730 tower on top with a beautiful rotunda 00:24:52.379 --> 00:24:55.000 towering way up high over the whole town. 00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.239 This is their target, to get into that 00:24:58.290 --> 00:25:01.339 historic courthouse in this sleepy, 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:03.319 little town in the middle of nowhere. 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:05.379 So, the two head on 00:25:05.379 --> 00:25:06.619 over to the courthouse. 00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:07.899 GARY: Well, we stopped and got the 00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:09.460 Bomb Burrito at the gas station. 00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:10.080 That’s important. 00:25:10.339 --> 00:25:11.629 JUSTIN: Yeah, that does come up later. 00:25:11.790 --> 00:25:12.499 GARY: We did have a snack. 00:25:12.499 --> 00:25:13.049 [Laughing] [Crosstalk] 00:25:13.049 --> 00:25:15.729 We did have a snack. 00:25:16.139 --> 00:25:17.559 We took like a thirty-minute break 00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:18.999 and just hung out at the gas station 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.510 talking to the clerk that was there. 00:25:21.670 --> 00:25:21.888 He was a nice guy. 00:25:21.888 --> 00:25:22.169 JUSTIN: He was a nice guy. 00:25:22.169 --> 00:25:22.449 He gave us free donuts. 00:25:22.449 --> 00:25:23.529 GARY: Yeah, he did give us free donuts. 00:25:24.019 --> 00:25:24.829 Instead of throwing them out, he 00:25:24.829 --> 00:25:25.719 just gave us some free donuts. 00:25:26.139 --> 00:25:27.419 Yeah, so we had our break, which 00:25:27.419 --> 00:25:28.530 was literally — I mean, the gas 00:25:28.530 --> 00:25:30.930 station was across the street from… 00:25:30.930 --> 00:25:31.149 JUSTIN: Just about, yeah. 00:25:31.309 --> 00:25:32.289 GARY: Yeah, like, almost across 00:25:32.290 --> 00:25:33.290 the street from the courthouse. 00:25:33.290 --> 00:25:34.270 We sat there for thirty minutes. 00:25:34.270 --> 00:25:36.829 We kind of scoped the place out just 00:25:36.829 --> 00:25:38.519 to make sure that they didn’t have 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:41.329 some sort of patrol or something, 00:25:41.459 --> 00:25:43.149 city cops or deputy sheriffs that 00:25:43.149 --> 00:25:44.209 were patrolling the courthouse. 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.929 So, we parked at the courthouse. 00:25:48.939 --> 00:25:49.229 JUSTIN: Oh yeah. 00:25:49.769 --> 00:25:52.359 GARY: And we — again, we’ve got a 00:25:52.360 --> 00:25:54.749 get-out-of-jail-free card, and every 00:25:54.750 --> 00:25:56.759 other time – like, we don’t have to be 00:25:57.179 --> 00:25:59.529 ultra-sneaky typically in situations 00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:00.669 like this where they just want to see 00:26:00.669 --> 00:26:02.599 if Joe Public can get in the building. 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:02.819 JUSTIN: Right. 00:26:02.849 --> 00:26:04.029 GARY: We don’t have to be super sneaky. 00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:06.629 So, this is one of those instances that 00:26:07.199 --> 00:26:09.779 if you look at the contract that we have, 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:12.259 it specifically stated we were not allowed 00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:13.859 to bypass the alarm on this building. 00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:16.269 They did not want us to bypass the alarm. 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:17.489 In the conversation we had on the 00:26:17.489 --> 00:26:19.610 phone; hey guys, don’t circumvent 00:26:19.619 --> 00:26:21.240 the alarm, don’t bypass it. 00:26:21.259 --> 00:26:21.629 Just… 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.039 JUSTIN: Right. 00:26:22.059 --> 00:26:23.590 Don’t degrade our security. 00:26:23.590 --> 00:26:25.450 Like, don’t disable a sensor so that 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:27.089 anybody could go up, bypass the store, 00:26:27.089 --> 00:26:29.050 and gain entry without an alarm going off. 00:26:29.050 --> 00:26:30.029 So, that’s a pretty common 00:26:30.029 --> 00:26:31.179 theme with a lot of our clients. 00:26:31.589 --> 00:26:33.850 We’re not trying to degrade the security 00:26:33.850 --> 00:26:36.129 of their facility so we can gain access, 00:26:36.129 --> 00:26:37.529 because it also allows potential for 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.149 other threat actors to gain access 00:26:41.199 --> 00:26:42.899 covertly or without setting off alarms. 00:26:42.950 --> 00:26:43.290 GARY: Right. 00:26:43.350 --> 00:26:45.740 So, in this instance we walked up 00:26:45.790 --> 00:26:48.520 to the north door, I think it was. 00:26:48.700 --> 00:26:48.760 JUSTIN: [Music] 00:26:51.030 --> 00:26:52.349 So, we go up to this courthouse. 00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:53.470 We jiggled the door. 00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:54.940 There’s a little technique 00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:55.390 that you just see 00:26:58.150 --> 00:26:58.210 if the latch is engaged, 00:26:58.210 --> 00:26:58.969 and pop the door real quick. 00:26:59.469 --> 00:27:02.390 Much to my surprise, the door was open. 00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:06.610 JACK: At this point it’s like, midnight. 00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:08.220 Why in the heck is the front door 00:27:08.269 --> 00:27:10.610 open on this historic courthouse 00:27:10.689 --> 00:27:12.449 with all the lights off inside? 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:16.290 Freaky for sure, but Justin thought 00:27:16.489 --> 00:27:18.920 someone must have tried to close it at 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.209 night and it just didn’t shut all the way. 00:27:21.689 --> 00:27:23.380 Now, this courthouse has an 00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:25.599 alarm system because it’s a 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:27.299 historic courthouse building. 00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:28.460 So, yeah, it should, right? 00:27:28.509 --> 00:27:29.700 GARY: When he opened the door, 00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:31.110 the alarm did not go off. 00:27:31.289 --> 00:27:33.950 So, our assumption was there 00:27:33.950 --> 00:27:36.079 was a fault setting in this 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:37.840 alarm system for the front door. 00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:39.240 They armed it anyway. 00:27:39.250 --> 00:27:41.589 Again, this is our professional 00:27:41.590 --> 00:27:43.139 guess of what happened. 00:27:43.689 --> 00:27:45.919 They armed it anyway even with that fault, 00:27:45.959 --> 00:27:48.679 or they armed it, it counts down, they go 00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:50.999 out, and they didn’t close the door all 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.550 the way and then it armed anyway without 00:27:53.769 --> 00:27:57.120 that front door being fully closed. 00:27:57.379 --> 00:27:58.899 So, when Justin grabbed that front 00:27:58.900 --> 00:28:00.300 door, he opened it, what, two or three 00:28:00.309 --> 00:28:02.849 inches and the alarm didn’t go off. 00:28:03.570 --> 00:28:05.479 Then I tried a badge we had cloned 00:28:05.479 --> 00:28:06.759 from another building just to see 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:08.609 if they had multi-building access. 00:28:08.989 --> 00:28:09.960 That didn’t work. 00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:11.800 It’s kind of like, well, should 00:28:11.800 --> 00:28:12.809 we give them the benefit of the 00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:14.909 doubt or should we just use this? 00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:16.779 So, we elected to basically 00:28:16.779 --> 00:28:18.529 close the front door and say, 00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:19.750 okay, well, let’s start over. 00:28:23.049 --> 00:28:24.459 JACK: So, they both stepped back outside. 00:28:24.570 --> 00:28:25.459 This time, they closed 00:28:25.459 --> 00:28:26.749 the door all the way. 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:27.919 It latches shut. 00:28:28.309 --> 00:28:29.939 This must have been a fluke for the door 00:28:29.939 --> 00:28:31.939 to be accidentally left open or something, 00:28:32.349 --> 00:28:34.139 so they wanted to break in properly. 00:28:34.750 --> 00:28:36.199 Now the door is locked 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:37.350 and sealed properly. 00:28:37.409 --> 00:28:39.849 Okay, so they begin again. 00:28:40.169 --> 00:28:41.770 These two being masters at getting 00:28:41.770 --> 00:28:43.669 in through these doors, they have no 00:28:43.669 --> 00:28:45.490 trouble getting the door back open. 00:28:45.580 --> 00:28:46.730 [Alarm beeping] Now, as they get 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:48.759 this door open, they immediately 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:51.129 hear the alarm is beeping. 00:28:52.300 --> 00:28:53.829 GARY: Right, just like in your home 00:28:53.830 --> 00:28:55.150 security system when you walk through 00:28:55.150 --> 00:28:56.519 the door and it starts beeping 00:28:56.819 --> 00:28:58.439 to let you know that you’ve got X 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:00.150 amount of seconds to put in your code 00:29:00.830 --> 00:29:01.790 before the actual alarm goes off. 00:29:01.800 --> 00:29:03.019 So, it was beeping really loud. 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:03.929 JUSTIN: Yeah, and we already 00:29:03.929 --> 00:29:04.810 had an idea before that. 00:29:04.810 --> 00:29:06.614 We kind of expected that alarm to go off. 00:29:06.614 --> 00:29:07.690 So, just, again, a little 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:10.760 bit of precursor to that. 00:29:11.589 --> 00:29:13.819 The other locations, nobody had showed up. 00:29:13.819 --> 00:29:15.009 Nobody responded, so we had been 00:29:15.029 --> 00:29:17.179 gaining access to government facilities 00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:19.189 without any alarms going off, 00:29:19.250 --> 00:29:20.749 without central dispatch showing up, 00:29:20.750 --> 00:29:22.309 without police presence showing up. 00:29:22.580 --> 00:29:23.899 So, at this location — we’re kinda coming 00:29:23.899 --> 00:29:24.999 up here, and we’ve been there throughout 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.654 the day and we had seen the alarm panel. 00:29:26.654 --> 00:29:27.699 It said, OK, disabled. 00:29:27.699 --> 00:29:29.509 That night it said, OK, armed. 00:29:29.539 --> 00:29:30.679 So, we expected it to go off. 00:29:30.949 --> 00:29:32.599 We’re going — coming up to this facility 00:29:33.019 --> 00:29:35.359 hoping for once, this final facility, 00:29:35.549 --> 00:29:38.119 the alarm would go off at this location. 00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:39.829 So, it was almost like 00:29:40.649 --> 00:29:42.020 bittersweet but good. 00:29:42.020 --> 00:29:43.340 Okay, great, the alarm’s going. 00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:44.390 It’s beeping at least, 00:29:44.420 --> 00:29:45.780 once we go in there. 00:29:45.830 --> 00:29:46.649 GARY: At least it’s armed. 00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:47.320 JUSTIN: Right? 00:29:48.340 --> 00:29:50.189 So, eventually the alarm counts 00:29:50.190 --> 00:29:52.710 down and then it starts sounding. 00:29:54.410 --> 00:29:55.080 [Alarm ringing] So, very 00:29:55.080 --> 00:29:56.190 audible at this point. 00:29:56.199 --> 00:29:57.969 The entire downtown of Adel 00:30:00.350 --> 00:30:01.109 is going off and you can 00:30:01.109 --> 00:30:01.459 hear the sounders going off. 00:30:01.459 --> 00:30:03.510 JACK: The sleepy town of Adel is now 00:30:03.510 --> 00:30:06.359 being woken by these alarms coming 00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:08.240 from their precious, historic, iconic 00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:11.849 courthouse building in the middle of town. 00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:13.480 JUSTIN: [Music] So, at that point, 00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:16.039 alarms are blaring throughout downtown. 00:30:16.049 --> 00:30:17.760 We decide to go up to the third floor. 00:30:17.770 --> 00:30:20.050 So, we’re very well aware at that point. 00:30:20.050 --> 00:30:20.880 It’s very audible that the 00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:22.090 alarms have been activated. 00:30:22.270 --> 00:30:22.929 They’ve been tripped. 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:24.416 At this point we go up to the third 00:30:24.416 --> 00:30:25.709 floor and get a vantage point and 00:30:25.829 --> 00:30:28.040 hoping that police presence responds 00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:30.139 to the incident, to the alarm going 00:30:30.139 --> 00:30:31.700 off, ‘cause it’s not uncommon. 00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:33.850 I’ve been in banks in the past 00:30:34.230 --> 00:30:36.579 literally a hundred feet from a police 00:30:36.590 --> 00:30:38.649 station where they either were not 00:30:38.649 --> 00:30:39.960 paying for the service or it wasn’t 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:41.479 connected or configured properly, 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.770 where it didn’t dial out and call 00:30:43.840 --> 00:30:45.970 police to respond to the incident. 00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:47.699 So, yeah, so it’s not terribly 00:30:47.699 --> 00:30:48.830 uncommon for that to happen. 00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:50.419 So, we go up to the third floor, get a 00:30:50.419 --> 00:30:52.269 vantage point, and at this point, for 00:30:52.579 --> 00:30:54.969 our reporting purposes, hoping that 00:30:54.970 --> 00:30:57.399 police respond to the alarms going off. 00:30:59.369 --> 00:31:01.249 At which point within — it was 00:31:01.330 --> 00:31:02.949 extremely quick response time. 00:31:02.949 --> 00:31:04.889 Within five minutes, I think it was 00:31:04.889 --> 00:31:06.530 a sheriff’s deputy had showed up 00:31:06.530 --> 00:31:08.279 to the scene, and we see him and 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:09.389 he’s going around the building. 00:31:09.769 --> 00:31:11.369 Gary and I are conferring with each other. 00:31:11.369 --> 00:31:13.029 Okay, man, what’s the next plan? 00:31:13.040 --> 00:31:13.829 What are we doing here? 00:31:13.829 --> 00:31:14.579 There are police. 00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:18.019 It’s a very – not a high-stress situation, 00:31:18.019 --> 00:31:19.500 but you have to handle it professionally 00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:21.239 and properly otherwise there always 00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:23.519 is risk in those types of situations. 00:31:23.939 --> 00:31:24.999 So, we’re discussing our game 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:25.999 plan, what we want to do. 00:31:26.860 --> 00:31:28.139 Within a short while, another couple 00:31:28.139 --> 00:31:29.909 minutes, we go out on the main floor 00:31:29.909 --> 00:31:31.339 and Gary’s calling out commands. 00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:33.029 Is there an officer in the building? 00:31:33.029 --> 00:31:35.519 Being very verbal, trying to get 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:36.929 in communication with police. 00:31:37.939 --> 00:31:39.379 At that point it didn’t sound like 00:31:39.379 --> 00:31:40.639 anybody else was in the building. 00:31:40.639 --> 00:31:41.659 We didn’t hear any doors 00:31:41.659 --> 00:31:43.069 opening or closing, so we 00:31:43.070 --> 00:31:44.709 start proceeding downstairs. 00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:46.359 JACK: As they go downstairs, they 00:31:46.459 --> 00:31:47.729 don’t see anyone in the building. 00:31:47.739 --> 00:31:49.399 They don’t hear anyone in the building, 00:31:49.869 --> 00:31:51.780 but they can tell there’s a police officer 00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:54.129 right outside the door they came in on. 00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:56.609 They spot each other, and Justin 00:31:56.610 --> 00:31:58.139 and Gary come to the door. 00:31:58.139 --> 00:31:59.129 JUSTIN: The officer, he’s on 00:31:59.129 --> 00:32:00.139 the other side of the door. 00:32:00.139 --> 00:32:01.709 He was actually — we found out 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:03.389 afterwards was not able to gain 00:32:03.399 --> 00:32:04.949 access inside the building. 00:32:04.949 --> 00:32:06.539 So, we’re communicating with him. 00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:08.269 He’s like, so, what’s up, fellas? 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:10.000 We’re like, hey man, we’re 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.139 here testing the security. 00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:13.089 Do you want to talk? 00:32:13.089 --> 00:32:14.159 Can I open this door? 00:32:14.399 --> 00:32:15.279 Just keeping my hands 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:16.779 static, not moving anything. 00:32:16.789 --> 00:32:18.239 He’s like, yep, go ahead, open the door. 00:32:18.239 --> 00:32:19.330 I’m like, okay, I’m gonna 00:32:19.330 --> 00:32:20.289 open up the door now. 00:32:20.750 --> 00:32:22.019 So, pushed the crash bar, we 00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:23.439 walk outside, and we greet him. 00:32:24.149 --> 00:32:25.569 At that point just start conversing 00:32:25.569 --> 00:32:27.199 with him; officer, we’re here, we 00:32:27.199 --> 00:32:28.910 were hired by Iowa State Courts. 00:32:28.910 --> 00:32:30.709 We’re assessing the security of 00:32:31.050 --> 00:32:32.159 various government facilities 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:33.320 including this courthouse. 00:32:33.550 --> 00:32:34.700 We have documentation. 00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:35.799 This is all above ground. 00:32:35.809 --> 00:32:37.179 Would you like to see our paperwork? 00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:38.450 He responds yes. 00:32:38.550 --> 00:32:40.470 Say, okay, it’s in my backpack pocket. 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:41.450 Do you mind if I make a move 00:32:41.450 --> 00:32:43.100 and pull that out of my pocket? 00:32:43.100 --> 00:32:43.520 Sure, go ahead. 00:32:43.520 --> 00:32:45.879 Then at that point present our paperwork. 00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:49.360 So, from there, he asked for our IDs. 00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:51.000 At that point I think somebody else 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.260 had shown up right at that point. 00:32:52.270 --> 00:32:53.840 So, they were escorting us, they had 00:32:53.840 --> 00:32:55.869 hunkered down with us while somebody else 00:32:55.869 --> 00:32:57.760 had taken the IDs and the paperwork away 00:32:57.760 --> 00:32:59.190 and started verifying our information. 00:33:00.020 --> 00:33:01.030 GARY: At some point I think the 00:33:01.030 --> 00:33:02.779 sergeant even told us to relax, ‘cause 00:33:02.779 --> 00:33:05.350 we were trying to be ultra-careful 00:33:05.350 --> 00:33:07.150 and professional, and every time 00:33:07.150 --> 00:33:08.000 we wanted to move our hands, we 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.059 were like, hey, is it alright? 00:33:09.059 --> 00:33:10.380 We okay to get our wallets? 00:33:10.719 --> 00:33:11.359 At some point he’s like, 00:33:11.360 --> 00:33:12.430 hey man, you guys can relax. 00:33:12.439 --> 00:33:13.919 We just want to verify that you’re 00:33:13.919 --> 00:33:14.930 doing what you should be doing. 00:33:14.930 --> 00:33:17.409 You guys can — you don’t 00:33:17.410 --> 00:33:18.449 have to be that paranoid. 00:33:18.989 --> 00:33:21.079 We are pretty sure that you’re 00:33:21.239 --> 00:33:22.869 not doing anything nefarious here. 00:33:23.719 --> 00:33:25.500 They were ultra-professional. 00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:26.014 They handled themselves perfectly. 00:33:26.015 --> 00:33:26.590 JUSTIN: Yeah, those guys were 00:33:29.110 --> 00:33:29.159 great. 00:33:29.389 --> 00:33:30.410 GARY: They were nice, they were 00:33:30.419 --> 00:33:32.179 professional, they were doing the whole 00:33:32.639 --> 00:33:34.899 Ronald Reagan trust-but-verify type thing. 00:33:34.899 --> 00:33:36.389 Like, yeah, we’re pretty sure you guys 00:33:36.389 --> 00:33:37.829 are on the up-and-up because you came out 00:33:37.829 --> 00:33:39.919 to us and you did what you were supposed 00:33:39.919 --> 00:33:41.139 to do, but we’re just gonna make sure. 00:33:41.139 --> 00:33:41.979 We’re gonna verify that you 00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:43.819 are really supposed to be here. 00:33:43.829 --> 00:33:46.639 So, we can’t — if nothing else, 00:33:46.739 --> 00:33:50.439 we can’t thank the deputies enough 00:33:50.470 --> 00:33:51.869 because they were ultra-professional 00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:53.160 and just really, really stand-up… 00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:53.969 JUSTIN: Agreed. 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:56.029 JACK: They immediately gave the police 00:33:56.029 --> 00:33:57.429 their get-out-of-jail-free card. 00:33:57.580 --> 00:33:58.359 You don’t want to mess 00:33:58.360 --> 00:33:59.669 around and lie to the police. 00:33:59.689 --> 00:34:01.439 You want to come clean because this is 00:34:01.439 --> 00:34:03.179 not someone you want to try to trick. 00:34:03.439 --> 00:34:04.829 This is not part of the scope. 00:34:05.139 --> 00:34:06.469 You want to tell them, look, 00:34:06.479 --> 00:34:08.600 we’re here on official business. 00:34:09.139 --> 00:34:11.209 The paper has the names and phone 00:34:11.220 --> 00:34:13.520 numbers of the state employees that hired 00:34:13.549 --> 00:34:15.779 Coalfire to do this penetration test. 00:34:16.259 --> 00:34:18.330 The police call the first number. 00:34:18.779 --> 00:34:19.539 No answer. 00:34:20.110 --> 00:34:21.329 They call the second number. 00:34:21.329 --> 00:34:23.620 The line was disconnected. 00:34:24.149 --> 00:34:26.139 They called the third number. 00:34:26.659 --> 00:34:27.599 Someone picks up. 00:34:28.059 --> 00:34:29.519 The police ask if they knew 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.549 that these guys were trying 00:34:30.549 --> 00:34:31.709 to break in the courthouse. 00:34:32.259 --> 00:34:32.580 They said… 00:34:32.580 --> 00:34:33.049 JUSTIN: Yeah, we’re 00:34:33.049 --> 00:34:34.049 doing security testing. 00:34:34.049 --> 00:34:35.269 Those guys are supposed to be there. 00:34:35.269 --> 00:34:35.934 They’re testing the 00:34:35.934 --> 00:34:36.629 security of the courthouse. 00:34:36.769 --> 00:34:39.469 This is my story of what happened, ‘cause 00:34:39.469 --> 00:34:40.839 I’m not on that call there with them. 00:34:40.839 --> 00:34:42.259 They had walk away a little bit from us. 00:34:42.259 --> 00:34:44.019 GARY: This is what the 00:34:44.029 --> 00:34:45.749 sergeant, the deputy sheriff 00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:47.759 who was a sergeant, told us. 00:34:48.059 --> 00:34:49.630 He spoke to our contact. 00:34:49.669 --> 00:34:50.549 He’s like, well, this is 00:34:50.550 --> 00:34:51.449 what your contact said. 00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:52.499 JUSTIN: So, they run our 00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:54.169 credentials, everything on spec. 00:34:54.220 --> 00:34:54.990 We give them our names 00:34:54.990 --> 00:34:55.909 and our driver’s license. 00:34:55.910 --> 00:34:56.879 They do get ahold of 00:34:56.879 --> 00:34:57.759 our point of contacts. 00:34:57.800 --> 00:34:58.709 They’d say, yes, these guys 00:34:58.709 --> 00:34:59.879 are here testing security. 00:35:00.129 --> 00:35:02.449 So, at that point the sergeant, the 00:35:02.449 --> 00:35:05.989 guy in charge for — or head in charge… 00:35:05.989 --> 00:35:07.379 GARY: The ranking officer on the scene. 00:35:07.379 --> 00:35:08.059 JUSTIN: Ranking officer, thank you. 00:35:08.059 --> 00:35:09.359 That’s what I was trying to get to — had 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:10.769 come back to us, handed us back our 00:35:10.769 --> 00:35:12.899 IDs, and he’s like, yeah, as far as I’m 00:35:12.899 --> 00:35:14.019 concerned, you guys should be good to go. 00:35:14.509 --> 00:35:16.069 Everything’s all clear here. 00:35:16.069 --> 00:35:17.539 So, at that point things 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:18.649 get really jovial. 00:35:18.660 --> 00:35:19.890 We’re laughing, joking 00:35:19.890 --> 00:35:20.939 around with the officers. 00:35:21.220 --> 00:35:22.660 They’re asking us, man, this job’s crazy. 00:35:22.669 --> 00:35:24.239 Like, you guys break into buildings. 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:25.509 Like, how does this go? 00:35:25.669 --> 00:35:26.909 How’d you get jobs like this? 00:35:27.610 --> 00:35:29.080 How can we test security? 00:35:29.080 --> 00:35:30.869 How do we get a job like that? 00:35:30.869 --> 00:35:32.309 JACK: [Music] Just as Gary and 00:35:32.309 --> 00:35:33.559 Justin were about to leave, 00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:35.589 another squad car pulls up. 00:35:35.979 --> 00:35:39.320 This one has Sheriff written on the side. 00:35:39.850 --> 00:35:41.570 The guy gets out and walks up. 00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:45.560 GARY: The sheriff shows up. 00:35:45.710 --> 00:35:48.060 He’s visibly upset. 00:35:49.870 --> 00:35:51.109 From our perspective, the 00:35:51.110 --> 00:35:53.380 mood completely changed. 00:35:53.389 --> 00:35:55.249 So, prior to him showing up, everybody 00:35:55.250 --> 00:35:57.930 was happy and smiling and we were – there 00:35:57.949 --> 00:36:01.099 had to be eight deputies that responded, 00:36:01.629 --> 00:36:03.090 all of us standing on the courthouse 00:36:03.099 --> 00:36:04.430 steps, and then there was one City of 00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:07.570 Adel officer there as well, so there was 00:36:07.570 --> 00:36:09.370 at least nine people there including us. 00:36:09.370 --> 00:36:10.430 JUSTIN: There’s not a lot going on 00:36:10.430 --> 00:36:10.510 in Adel, Iowa at 2:00 in the morning. 00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:10.690 GARY: Yeah. 00:36:11.900 --> 00:36:14.699 So, when the sheriff shows up, all 00:36:14.700 --> 00:36:16.509 the smoking and joking stops, right? 00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:18.429 This giant fun sponge walks in the 00:36:18.549 --> 00:36:21.229 room and everybody just stops talking. 00:36:21.700 --> 00:36:24.220 Just — everything just goes silent. 00:36:25.910 --> 00:36:26.689 He walks up. 00:36:27.289 --> 00:36:29.340 He has some choice words to say to us that 00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:31.149 we didn’t necessarily agree with, kinda 00:36:32.020 --> 00:36:35.499 talking down to us in a certain respect. 00:36:35.529 --> 00:36:36.239 JUSTIN: To put it mildly. 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.379 GARY: To put it mildly, and 00:36:38.379 --> 00:36:39.759 basically tells us that we don’t 00:36:39.759 --> 00:36:41.159 have authorization to do what we’re 00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:43.800 doing, and asks us if we knew that. 00:36:44.059 --> 00:36:45.559 We told him our perspective which 00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:46.680 was, hey, we’re under contract, 00:36:46.680 --> 00:36:47.729 we’re working for these people. 00:36:47.729 --> 00:36:49.829 [Music] His response to that was, well, 00:36:49.830 --> 00:36:52.020 they don’t own this courthouse and I 00:36:52.029 --> 00:36:53.169 don’t care if you’re under contract. 00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:54.040 They don’t own this courthouse. 00:36:55.470 --> 00:36:56.419 JACK: Whoa, what? 00:36:56.919 --> 00:36:59.269 The state doesn’t own the courthouse? 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:02.879 Uh, did they get authorization 00:37:02.879 --> 00:37:04.480 from someone who didn’t have 00:37:04.489 --> 00:37:06.089 authorization to break in the building? 00:37:06.829 --> 00:37:10.439 Uh, I would start to get worried at this 00:37:10.439 --> 00:37:12.960 point, but Gary wasn’t worried at all. 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:13.929 GARY: Nah, you know? 00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:15.629 No, because this has never happened 00:37:15.629 --> 00:37:18.069 before in history as far as we know, 00:37:18.070 --> 00:37:19.920 or any of the other people that we know 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:21.040 in the industry, it’s never happened. 00:37:21.829 --> 00:37:24.469 People get taken away or they get held 00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:26.619 until situations resolve themselves. 00:37:27.589 --> 00:37:29.319 Not frequently, but it happens. 00:37:29.339 --> 00:37:30.789 So, if that happened in this case, we 00:37:30.799 --> 00:37:32.960 were fine with it, ‘cause we know that 00:37:32.980 --> 00:37:33.999 the truth’s gonna come out, they’re 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:34.969 gonna realize that we’re actually 00:37:34.969 --> 00:37:36.799 working for a company and that we 00:37:36.799 --> 00:37:39.579 were really contracted by the state. 00:37:39.589 --> 00:37:41.839 So, worst case scenario, we gotta 00:37:41.839 --> 00:37:43.209 spend an hour or two in a holding cell. 00:37:43.299 --> 00:37:43.909 Not that big a deal. 00:37:46.279 --> 00:37:46.429 [Music] 00:37:49.379 --> 00:37:51.759 The sheriff tells everybody that 00:37:51.759 --> 00:37:53.170 was there; says, well, we’re gonna 00:37:53.170 --> 00:37:55.039 arrest these guys for trespassing. 00:37:55.410 --> 00:37:56.160 Hold them. 00:37:56.520 --> 00:37:57.789 I’m gonna go make a phone call. 00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:00.449 So, in our minds he’s gonna 00:38:00.459 --> 00:38:01.809 go talk to our contacts. 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:03.010 At least in my mind 00:38:03.270 --> 00:38:04.679 that’s what he was doing. 00:38:05.339 --> 00:38:06.719 In that time that he was gone 00:38:06.729 --> 00:38:07.750 — ‘cause he was gone for like, a 00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:09.049 good ten minutes, it felt like. 00:38:09.080 --> 00:38:09.590 JUSTIN: Yeah, it seemed 00:38:09.590 --> 00:38:10.809 like he was, for sure. 00:38:10.819 --> 00:38:12.339 GARY: In that time he was gone, the mood 00:38:12.339 --> 00:38:13.699 went right back to what it was before he 00:38:13.699 --> 00:38:15.339 was there, which was everybody was asking 00:38:15.339 --> 00:38:17.450 us questions, asking us how we did stuff. 00:38:17.450 --> 00:38:18.769 What’s the craziest thing we’ve ever 00:38:18.970 --> 00:38:20.629 seen or heard about in our line of work? 00:38:20.629 --> 00:38:22.099 Like, it went right back to that. 00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:24.139 One of the officers was super interested 00:38:24.139 --> 00:38:26.019 on how we got in, so we showed him our 00:38:26.019 --> 00:38:28.320 tools, we showed him how we got in, we 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.059 showed him the technique that we used. 00:38:30.080 --> 00:38:32.080 We troubleshot how we think 00:38:32.080 --> 00:38:33.499 that front door got left open. 00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:34.580 They gave us their ideas. 00:38:34.610 --> 00:38:38.070 We talked about card entry on why they 00:38:38.070 --> 00:38:39.680 originally couldn’t get into the building. 00:38:40.580 --> 00:38:42.070 It was — everything was — just 00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:43.000 went back to normal. 00:38:43.010 --> 00:38:44.430 About ten minutes later, again, 00:38:44.430 --> 00:38:47.290 what we’re thinking, he came back 00:38:47.290 --> 00:38:49.709 in and he was just like, you need 00:38:49.710 --> 00:38:51.560 to arrest these guys for burglary. 00:38:52.570 --> 00:38:54.480 All the sheriff’s deputies 00:38:54.500 --> 00:38:55.679 kind of looked at each other. 00:38:56.399 --> 00:38:57.460 The sheriff turned around and 00:38:57.460 --> 00:38:59.309 said, do I need to do it myself? 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:00.570 Or something to that effect. 00:39:00.570 --> 00:39:01.940 I don’t remember his exact 00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:02.939 words, but he said something 00:39:02.949 --> 00:39:04.809 like, do I need to do it myself? 00:39:05.129 --> 00:39:06.210 I told you guys to 00:39:06.210 --> 00:39:07.439 arrest them for burglary. 00:39:08.270 --> 00:39:10.359 I don’t know what Justin’s – who 00:39:10.730 --> 00:39:12.129 the sheriff or the deputy sheriff 00:39:12.129 --> 00:39:14.169 was that arrested Justin, but the 00:39:14.169 --> 00:39:14.920 guy that grabbed me, he puts his 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:15.819 hand on my shoulder and says, hey 00:39:15.820 --> 00:39:17.119 man, I’m really sorry about this. 00:39:17.329 --> 00:39:17.709 You’re gonna… 00:39:17.759 --> 00:39:18.759 JUSTIN: I think something very 00:39:18.759 --> 00:39:19.308 similar happened with me, as well. 00:39:19.308 --> 00:39:20.159 GARY: Yeah, he goes, you turn around. 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:21.469 I’m gonna have to put these cuffs on you. 00:39:21.469 --> 00:39:22.729 JUSTIN: Right, and I totally understand. 00:39:22.729 --> 00:39:23.330 Like, okay, man. 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:24.269 I get it. 00:39:24.269 --> 00:39:25.252 I see where you’re coming from. 00:39:25.252 --> 00:39:26.439 GARY: Yeah, and both our responses 00:39:26.439 --> 00:39:27.699 are like, hey man, it’s okay. 00:39:27.699 --> 00:39:28.499 You’re just doing your jobs. 00:39:28.590 --> 00:39:29.629 It’s not a big deal. 00:39:29.939 --> 00:39:31.040 This won’t be the last time 00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:31.829 this happens, I’m sure. 00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:35.180 JACK: So, both of them get handcuffed. 00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:36.849 They had their rights read to them, and 00:39:36.849 --> 00:39:38.759 the police started escorting them away. 00:39:39.010 --> 00:39:40.659 But still, even though they now 00:39:40.659 --> 00:39:42.789 have handcuffs on and the police 00:39:42.790 --> 00:39:44.389 are escorting them, they still 00:39:44.389 --> 00:39:45.959 weren’t nervous about the situation. 00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:46.519 GARY: No. 00:39:46.889 --> 00:39:48.420 JUSTIN: ‘Cause think about it from our 00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:50.319 perspective; we had done nothing wrong. 00:39:50.330 --> 00:39:52.999 We have all the paperwork in the world. 00:39:53.489 --> 00:39:55.269 I’m from Florida, Gary’s from Seattle. 00:39:55.269 --> 00:39:56.299 It’s not like we flew out to 00:39:56.299 --> 00:39:58.260 Adel, Iowa to start breaking into 00:39:58.260 --> 00:39:59.769 courthouses on our [inaudible] paths. 00:39:59.919 --> 00:40:01.120 We knew we had every shred 00:40:01.120 --> 00:40:02.309 of evidence in our favor. 00:40:02.309 --> 00:40:03.079 We knew that this was 00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:04.079 totally above ground. 00:40:04.419 --> 00:40:07.839 It’s not totally uncommon for law 00:40:07.839 --> 00:40:09.339 enforcement to respond to an incident. 00:40:09.339 --> 00:40:10.190 It does happen. 00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:12.929 It is extremely rare, I’d say, 00:40:12.930 --> 00:40:14.920 for somebody to get detained 00:40:14.939 --> 00:40:16.440 or furthermore arrested. 00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:18.649 That’s as far as it had ever 00:40:18.649 --> 00:40:20.919 gone, and as far as we’re aware, 00:40:20.959 --> 00:40:22.679 nobody’s ever been actually formally 00:40:22.720 --> 00:40:24.219 arrested and pressed with charges. 00:40:24.219 --> 00:40:25.109 GARY: Yeah, charged, nobody’s 00:40:25.109 --> 00:40:26.109 ever been actually charged, yeah. 00:40:26.709 --> 00:40:26.969 JUSTIN: Right. 00:40:26.970 --> 00:40:28.660 So, we’re thinking, okay, we’re 00:40:28.660 --> 00:40:30.139 gonna go down to the station. 00:40:30.139 --> 00:40:31.830 We’ll work this out, not a big deal. 00:40:32.309 --> 00:40:34.009 JACK: Now, because this is Adel, a 00:40:34.009 --> 00:40:36.569 small town, the jailhouse was literally 00:40:36.589 --> 00:40:38.379 across the street from the courthouse. 00:40:38.709 --> 00:40:40.699 So, they both get walked to the 00:40:40.699 --> 00:40:42.629 jailhouse with handcuffs on. 00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:44.580 Stay tuned, ‘cause when we come 00:40:44.580 --> 00:40:45.619 back from the break, we’ll hear 00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:47.249 what happens to Gary and Justin. 00:40:48.429 --> 00:40:50.610 Gary and Justin are now both at the 00:40:50.610 --> 00:40:53.199 jailhouse, and they have been separated. 00:40:53.349 --> 00:40:54.999 The police are questioning them 00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:56.819 and processing them separately. 00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.780 GARY: That’s when the aggravation started 00:40:58.780 --> 00:41:01.930 to kick in a little bit, [music] because 00:41:02.190 --> 00:41:04.149 we were going through the entire process, 00:41:04.149 --> 00:41:06.760 which is empty out all your pockets, give 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.409 us all your gear, give us your backpacks. 00:41:10.959 --> 00:41:12.130 I don’t know if you ever did, 00:41:12.130 --> 00:41:13.169 but I interacted with the 00:41:13.169 --> 00:41:14.459 sheriff a couple of times. 00:41:14.839 --> 00:41:15.657 JUSTIN: No, I never talked to the sheriff. 00:41:15.657 --> 00:41:16.049 GARY: Yeah, yeah. 00:41:16.050 --> 00:41:17.369 So, I interacted with the sheriff a 00:41:17.369 --> 00:41:20.690 couple of times, and it was like, hey 00:41:20.690 --> 00:41:22.679 sheriff, are you just gonna hold us 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.409 or are you actually gonna charge us? 00:41:26.190 --> 00:41:28.220 It was later discussed or during that 00:41:28.220 --> 00:41:30.060 conversation that I won’t really go 00:41:30.060 --> 00:41:31.609 into ‘cause it’ll just aggravate me, 00:41:31.839 --> 00:41:33.880 was, yes, we’re going to charge you. 00:41:34.790 --> 00:41:37.310 There was multiple times I tried to — I 00:41:37.310 --> 00:41:38.920 don’t want to say talk my way out of it… 00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:39.370 JUSTIN: De-escalate. 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:39.790 GARY: Right. 00:41:39.790 --> 00:41:41.160 Yeah, that’s a better term, 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.480 de-escalate the situation. 00:41:42.490 --> 00:41:44.359 Like, hey, maybe you could 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:47.540 contact one of our contacts. 00:41:47.780 --> 00:41:49.080 Talk to somebody at Iowa State 00:41:49.080 --> 00:41:50.719 Court and talk to somebody, because 00:41:51.150 --> 00:41:52.370 we’re legitimately just working 00:41:52.370 --> 00:41:55.790 here, sir. We were ultra-polite. 00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:58.019 There’s multiple videos out there 00:41:58.109 --> 00:41:59.559 that show that I don’t think 00:41:59.659 --> 00:42:01.209 we were ever unprofessional. 00:42:01.219 --> 00:42:02.550 We were just like, hey sir, 00:42:03.299 --> 00:42:04.370 could you possibly do this 00:42:04.370 --> 00:42:05.420 or check with this person? 00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:07.899 Or, maybe this is a big misunderstanding. 00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:09.329 It was always met with 00:42:09.549 --> 00:42:11.140 nope, you’re going to jail. 00:42:11.469 --> 00:42:12.340 Nope, you’re getting arrested. 00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:15.159 JUSTIN: I mean, at some point along 00:42:15.160 --> 00:42:17.049 that process it became very clear 00:42:17.049 --> 00:42:18.720 that regardless of any amount of 00:42:18.759 --> 00:42:20.450 paperwork that we would have had on us… 00:42:20.450 --> 00:42:20.500 GARY: It did not matter. 00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:21.630 JUSTIN: …or anything that we could have 00:42:21.630 --> 00:42:23.290 said, there was something else going on. 00:42:23.299 --> 00:42:24.909 It wasn’t about that. 00:42:26.020 --> 00:42:27.140 We had the paperwork. 00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:29.469 The deputies already verified, cleared, 00:42:29.469 --> 00:42:32.660 identified us but let us go, essentially. 00:42:33.090 --> 00:42:36.259 So, despite all that, there was something 00:42:36.260 --> 00:42:38.159 else going on that regardless of what we 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.159 could have said, done, or shown, there was 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:42.990 no getting out of an arrest at that point. 00:42:43.439 --> 00:42:44.839 We’re both being very professional 00:42:44.839 --> 00:42:46.079 throughout the entire process. 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:48.529 But I’m a very big privacy advocate, 00:42:48.529 --> 00:42:50.239 and as we’re going through this, they’re 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:51.539 asking what’s your marital status? 00:42:51.540 --> 00:42:53.419 What’s your highest level of education? 00:42:53.430 --> 00:42:55.619 I’m very — understand at this point 00:42:55.619 --> 00:42:57.110 we’re being wrongfully arrested 00:42:57.110 --> 00:42:58.440 because we’re here for a job. 00:42:58.440 --> 00:42:59.860 This isn’t something that needs to be 00:42:59.860 --> 00:43:01.769 dragged through a criminal process. 00:43:01.829 --> 00:43:04.579 At most, if there’s contract discrepancies 00:43:04.709 --> 00:43:06.079 or issues with the state-first 00:43:06.099 --> 00:43:07.779 county level, this is something that 00:43:07.779 --> 00:43:09.810 gets handled in a civil courtroom. 00:43:09.829 --> 00:43:11.829 So, at that point I didn’t want to 00:43:11.829 --> 00:43:13.240 provide my social security number. 00:43:13.240 --> 00:43:14.849 So, it’s not like we’re resisting arrest 00:43:14.849 --> 00:43:17.019 or anything like that, but unwilling 00:43:17.019 --> 00:43:19.100 to give up a lot of personal details at 00:43:19.100 --> 00:43:22.639 that point, which a lot of people in the 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:23.959 booking or reception room, however you 00:43:23.959 --> 00:43:25.969 want to call it, got very upset with that. 00:43:25.970 --> 00:43:29.219 So, we have to give up all of 00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:30.299 our tools, all of our gear. 00:43:30.299 --> 00:43:31.779 We go through the process of explaining 00:43:31.779 --> 00:43:33.209 what these tools are, ‘cause we’re 00:43:33.209 --> 00:43:34.689 being booked not only for burglary 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:36.000 but possession of burglary tools. 00:43:36.479 --> 00:43:37.629 So, they want to have circumstantial 00:43:37.629 --> 00:43:40.409 evidence of us having tools that are used 00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:42.539 typically in burglary trade but obviously 00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:44.230 in a security setting at this point. 00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:45.639 JACK: They finally get to make 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:46.930 some phone calls, but at this 00:43:46.930 --> 00:43:48.299 point it’s like, 2:00 a.m. 00:43:48.649 --> 00:43:49.599 GARY: I had about thirty. 00:43:49.669 --> 00:43:52.180 But unfortunately everybody was sleeping 00:43:52.180 --> 00:43:53.530 and no one would answer my call. 00:43:53.530 --> 00:43:55.549 Like, even my wife slept through 00:43:55.919 --> 00:43:57.709 all of the phone calls that I sent. 00:43:57.709 --> 00:43:59.620 I sent all sorts of messages to people. 00:43:59.830 --> 00:44:01.899 The only person I was able to actually 00:44:01.899 --> 00:44:03.080 get ahold of was one of our contacts. 00:44:04.250 --> 00:44:05.179 I said, hey, are you aware 00:44:05.179 --> 00:44:06.379 that we got arrested? 00:44:06.410 --> 00:44:07.269 Yeah, yeah, we’re aware. 00:44:07.269 --> 00:44:08.110 Such-and-such told me. 00:44:08.509 --> 00:44:10.249 Are you doing anything to get us out? 00:44:11.099 --> 00:44:13.099 He said, well, yeah, we’re gonna be 00:44:13.099 --> 00:44:14.300 there first thing in the morning. 00:44:15.099 --> 00:44:17.169 We’re gonna talk to X, Y, and Z. I don’t 00:44:17.169 --> 00:44:18.499 remember who he said we’re gonna talk to. 00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:20.890 We’re gonna smooth this all over. 00:44:20.890 --> 00:44:22.229 It’s one big misunderstanding. 00:44:22.690 --> 00:44:25.919 You’d think — I believe almost verbatim 00:44:25.919 --> 00:44:27.260 his thing was, you’d think that 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:28.459 the sheriff would be a little more 00:44:28.459 --> 00:44:29.969 understanding of what we’re trying to do. 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:31.930 I said, well, guess what? 00:44:31.940 --> 00:44:32.620 He’s not. 00:44:33.620 --> 00:44:35.200 He said, yeah, I can see that. 00:44:35.600 --> 00:44:36.259 Again, we’ll be there 00:44:36.260 --> 00:44:36.980 first thing in the morning. 00:44:37.140 --> 00:44:38.120 We’re gonna hammer this out. 00:44:38.120 --> 00:44:38.900 There was a lot more to that 00:44:38.900 --> 00:44:40.480 conversation, but that’s the gist of it. 00:44:40.950 --> 00:44:42.299 JACK: Now, for me, my first 00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:43.330 call would have been to my boss. 00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:44.930 I would have called Coalfire right away 00:44:44.930 --> 00:44:46.870 and told them, hey, get some lawyers. 00:44:46.889 --> 00:44:47.720 We’re in jail. 00:44:47.990 --> 00:44:50.079 We need help right now, because 00:44:50.100 --> 00:44:51.759 they’re operating in capacity 00:44:51.779 --> 00:44:53.890 of Coalfire, so Coalfire should 00:44:53.900 --> 00:44:55.370 be capable of helping them out. 00:44:55.469 --> 00:44:56.520 GARY: Yeah, and we tried 00:44:56.520 --> 00:44:57.519 to get ahold of Coalfire. 00:44:57.519 --> 00:44:59.549 We just couldn’t get ahold of anybody 00:44:59.549 --> 00:45:00.649 just because of the late hour. 00:45:00.799 --> 00:45:01.999 I think most people when they 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.649 sleep, they put their car — they 00:45:03.649 --> 00:45:04.629 put their phone on vibrate. 00:45:04.809 --> 00:45:07.029 Because again, we’re talking about a 00:45:07.029 --> 00:45:09.549 scenario that has never happened before. 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:11.900 So, maybe you want to say 00:45:11.900 --> 00:45:12.879 some complacency, whatever 00:45:12.959 --> 00:45:13.839 you want to put in there. 00:45:14.040 --> 00:45:15.009 Who knows what it was? 00:45:15.029 --> 00:45:16.209 But most people were like, okay, 00:45:16.219 --> 00:45:17.679 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, 00:45:17.680 --> 00:45:18.649 not really that big of a deal. 00:45:19.839 --> 00:45:21.029 What’s the worst that could happen? 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:23.329 Well, we figured out what the 00:45:23.329 --> 00:45:24.419 worst that could happen was. 00:45:24.419 --> 00:45:26.609 JACK: By 2:30 a.m. the police finished 00:45:26.610 --> 00:45:28.309 processing them and gave them both 00:45:28.410 --> 00:45:30.339 orange jumpsuits to change into, 00:45:30.340 --> 00:45:31.889 the kind you see prisoners wear. 00:45:32.299 --> 00:45:33.360 The police took all their 00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:34.890 belongings, even their shoes. 00:45:35.229 --> 00:45:37.020 Gary got a pair of Crocs. 00:45:37.110 --> 00:45:39.149 Justin got some sandals that were too 00:45:39.150 --> 00:45:41.369 small, and they were put in a cell for the 00:45:41.369 --> 00:45:43.859 night with other criminals and cell mates. 00:45:43.859 --> 00:45:46.140 [Music] They tried to lay down and sleep, 00:45:46.369 --> 00:45:48.680 but the beds were really hard and cold, 00:45:49.189 --> 00:45:51.269 so they didn’t get much sleep that night. 00:45:56.849 --> 00:45:56.869 The 00:46:00.829 --> 00:46:02.349 next day they had an appointment 00:46:02.349 --> 00:46:03.919 to see the judge in the very 00:46:03.919 --> 00:46:05.079 courthouse they broke into. 00:46:05.509 --> 00:46:07.249 So, the officers escort 00:46:07.250 --> 00:46:08.760 them to the courthouse. 00:46:08.949 --> 00:46:10.389 GARY: When we were — when we walked 00:46:10.389 --> 00:46:11.439 over there in the morning, although 00:46:11.439 --> 00:46:12.599 it was incredibly uncomfortable and 00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:14.469 embarrassing that we were over there 00:46:14.469 --> 00:46:16.729 in literally shackles, right, the 00:46:16.729 --> 00:46:18.879 whole around-your-wrists and then tied 00:46:18.879 --> 00:46:21.150 around your waist and then the chain 00:46:21.150 --> 00:46:22.739 that goes from your wrist or your waist 00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:24.189 all the way to your ankles, and then 00:46:24.399 --> 00:46:25.899 you’re attached to the guy in front 00:46:25.899 --> 00:46:29.680 of you, and you do the – what is it? 00:46:29.680 --> 00:46:31.279 The railroad gang or whatever 00:46:31.279 --> 00:46:33.369 across the street with deputies in 00:46:33.369 --> 00:46:34.439 front of you, in the back of you. 00:46:34.439 --> 00:46:35.729 I was like, you gotta be kidding. 00:46:37.649 --> 00:46:39.479 We get over there, and the whole 00:46:39.479 --> 00:46:41.500 time I’m thinking we just gotta 00:46:41.500 --> 00:46:42.570 make it to 9:00 in the morning. 00:46:42.789 --> 00:46:43.789 The state’s gonna be here, they’re 00:46:43.789 --> 00:46:45.509 gonna explain everything, and then the 00:46:45.509 --> 00:46:47.199 judge is gonna be like, this is silly. 00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:48.550 Why are you guys here? 00:46:48.550 --> 00:46:51.069 Go ahead, issue on your own recognizance. 00:46:51.099 --> 00:46:51.939 You can go home. 00:46:52.459 --> 00:46:53.500 JACK: So, they get to the courthouse, 00:46:53.529 --> 00:46:55.140 they sit down in the courtroom, and await 00:46:55.140 --> 00:46:57.020 their names to be called by the judge. 00:46:57.759 --> 00:46:59.980 It boggles my mind still that this is 00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:02.269 the very courthouse that they broke into 00:47:02.319 --> 00:47:05.059 last night, and now they’re sitting in 00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:07.190 the courthouse waiting to see the judge. 00:47:07.830 --> 00:47:08.640 GARY: I was first. 00:47:08.660 --> 00:47:09.110 JUSTIN: Yes. 00:47:10.169 --> 00:47:11.390 GARY: There was a gentleman that 00:47:11.390 --> 00:47:12.749 was sitting next to the sheriff. 00:47:12.750 --> 00:47:13.620 The sheriff was in the 00:47:13.779 --> 00:47:15.369 gallery, I guess you could say. 00:47:16.229 --> 00:47:16.869 There was only one man 00:47:17.209 --> 00:47:17.789 standing next to him. 00:47:17.789 --> 00:47:19.179 So, my thought was, good, that 00:47:19.179 --> 00:47:21.429 is the court representative 00:47:21.449 --> 00:47:22.509 from the state court, right? 00:47:22.789 --> 00:47:23.939 He’s talking to the sheriff, they’ve 00:47:23.949 --> 00:47:25.299 talked about this, they realize 00:47:25.300 --> 00:47:27.779 this is just a big misunderstanding. 00:47:27.779 --> 00:47:28.540 Everything’s gonna be good, 00:47:28.540 --> 00:47:30.000 they’re gonna let us go, is 00:47:30.080 --> 00:47:31.410 what’s still playing in my mind. 00:47:32.030 --> 00:47:33.580 I sit there, I go in front of the judge. 00:47:34.120 --> 00:47:34.799 They ask your name. 00:47:34.799 --> 00:47:35.500 They say, what’s your name? 00:47:35.600 --> 00:47:36.190 Yeah, my name’s Gary DeMercurio. 00:47:36.750 --> 00:47:37.569 How much money do you make? 00:47:37.570 --> 00:47:38.490 I make X amount of money. 00:47:39.410 --> 00:47:40.089 Who do you work for? 00:47:40.120 --> 00:47:41.929 I work for a company called Coalfire. 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.060 So, at that point they decide whether or 00:47:45.060 --> 00:47:48.259 not you can qualify for a public defender. 00:47:48.259 --> 00:47:48.439 JUSTIN: Legal representation. 00:47:48.490 --> 00:47:49.319 GARY: Right, public defender. 00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:50.630 She says, you do not qualify 00:47:50.630 --> 00:47:51.540 for a public defender. 00:47:52.150 --> 00:47:53.279 Would you like to defend yourself or 00:47:53.279 --> 00:47:54.819 would you rather get outside counsel? 00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:57.250 I’m like, well, I’m hoping outside counsel 00:47:57.250 --> 00:47:59.819 isn’t necessary because, ma’am, I believe 00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:01.099 this is just a big misunderstanding. 00:48:01.180 --> 00:48:03.600 So, I launch into my reason why I 00:48:03.619 --> 00:48:04.699 think this is a misunderstanding. 00:48:04.790 --> 00:48:06.400 I explain to her what it is 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:07.940 that we do, what we were doing 00:48:07.940 --> 00:48:09.479 that night, who we work for. 00:48:10.340 --> 00:48:12.039 She looks at me and she says, 00:48:12.299 --> 00:48:14.019 you must think I’m stupid. 00:48:14.430 --> 00:48:14.490 [Music] 00:48:16.849 --> 00:48:18.699 At that point I’m like, oh, Lord. 00:48:18.709 --> 00:48:19.750 You’ve got to be kidding me. 00:48:19.750 --> 00:48:20.909 This is not happening. 00:48:22.169 --> 00:48:24.779 She launches into this, I don’t know, 00:48:24.779 --> 00:48:28.529 diatribe, just like I’m the biggest 00:48:28.579 --> 00:48:30.339 idiot that she has ever seen step 00:48:30.340 --> 00:48:31.979 in front of her in her entire life. 00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:33.139 Like, that is not the 00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:34.229 way that things happen. 00:48:34.459 --> 00:48:35.760 She is a state employee, 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:36.929 she works for the state. 00:48:37.180 --> 00:48:38.979 If the state was doing this, she 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:40.909 would know about it, and this is not 00:48:40.909 --> 00:48:42.089 the way that things happen at the 00:48:42.089 --> 00:48:45.599 state, etc, etc, etc. I just went 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:48.190 from being hopeful to just seeing red. 00:48:48.190 --> 00:48:49.470 I was just irate. 00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:54.859 JACK: Keep in mind that both Gary 00:48:54.889 --> 00:48:56.480 and Justin barely slept the night 00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:57.629 before, and they’re in these 00:48:57.669 --> 00:48:59.609 orange jumpsuits with shackles on. 00:49:00.009 --> 00:49:01.639 They aren’t presenting themselves as 00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:03.440 best they could given the situation, 00:49:03.869 --> 00:49:05.119 but when the judge said this to 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.089 Gary, he couldn’t believe it. 00:49:07.500 --> 00:49:09.499 He stood there totally shocked. 00:49:09.860 --> 00:49:11.459 Tons of rebuttals are going 00:49:11.459 --> 00:49:12.829 through his head, but he wanted 00:49:12.829 --> 00:49:14.110 to be courteous, so all he could 00:49:14.110 --> 00:49:15.750 do is stand there and be quiet. 00:49:16.129 --> 00:49:17.640 But he was thinking things like… 00:49:17.699 --> 00:49:18.480 GARY: You are a judge. 00:49:19.300 --> 00:49:22.979 You are — literally the point of your 00:49:22.989 --> 00:49:25.919 position is to be able to look at someone 00:49:25.919 --> 00:49:29.529 and have some semblance of an idea whether 00:49:29.529 --> 00:49:31.229 or not that person is telling the truth 00:49:31.259 --> 00:49:33.279 or not, and the only thing I can think 00:49:33.279 --> 00:49:35.339 of is you’ve been dealing with people 00:49:35.339 --> 00:49:38.699 and liars for so long, you can no longer 00:49:38.899 --> 00:49:40.450 tell the difference between somebody 00:49:40.450 --> 00:49:42.699 who is innocent and telling the truth 00:49:43.270 --> 00:49:46.160 wholeheartedly and somebody who is a liar. 00:49:46.169 --> 00:49:47.359 JUSTIN: Which obviously he’s not 00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:48.479 saying that to the judge, but 00:49:48.479 --> 00:49:49.719 that’s going through both of our… 00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:50.629 GARY: Yeah, that’s obviously 00:49:50.629 --> 00:49:51.259 what we’re thinking. 00:49:51.259 --> 00:49:53.859 JACK: The judge charged him with burglary 00:49:53.929 --> 00:49:56.590 and possession of burglary tools, then 00:49:56.590 --> 00:50:00.250 went on to say a bail is set for $5,000. 00:50:00.250 --> 00:50:01.739 Justin couldn’t believe the 00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:03.109 judge was saying this, either. 00:50:03.109 --> 00:50:03.759 JUSTIN: Same deal. 00:50:03.759 --> 00:50:06.919 I’m like — as not the person on front 00:50:06.929 --> 00:50:08.469 stage but obviously still in the same 00:50:08.470 --> 00:50:10.479 boat, I’m like, oh no, there’s no way. 00:50:10.879 --> 00:50:12.369 This is like a bad joke. 00:50:12.369 --> 00:50:13.460 You gotta be kidding me. 00:50:13.470 --> 00:50:15.520 Not a chance in hell this 00:50:15.520 --> 00:50:16.630 is how this is going down. 00:50:17.289 --> 00:50:18.650 So, I’m just kind of like 00:50:18.650 --> 00:50:20.919 sitting on the stand in awe. 00:50:20.919 --> 00:50:23.810 My jaw has dropped to the floor looking 00:50:24.089 --> 00:50:26.079 at the situation transpire in front of us. 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:27.305 GARY: There’s still this gentleman 00:50:27.305 --> 00:50:28.340 sitting next to the sheriff. 00:50:28.340 --> 00:50:29.170 I’m like, okay. 00:50:29.790 --> 00:50:31.820 I’m like, well, again, internal 00:50:31.820 --> 00:50:33.740 monologue, well, hah, joke’s on you 00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:35.580 judge, this guy’s from the state 00:50:35.590 --> 00:50:36.730 and he’s gonna explain everything. 00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:38.500 So, this guy walks up next to me 00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:40.460 and says, excuse me, ma’am, I’m 00:50:40.460 --> 00:50:42.159 the county prosecutor and we think 00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:43.289 these guys are a flight risk. 00:50:43.580 --> 00:50:45.119 We would like to increase their bail. 00:50:46.410 --> 00:50:47.299 I’m like, oh Lord. 00:50:47.889 --> 00:50:48.809 Are you kidding me? 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:52.009 I literally start looking around the 00:50:52.010 --> 00:50:53.299 courtroom looking for somebody else. 00:50:53.299 --> 00:50:54.679 I’m like, where is our 00:50:54.680 --> 00:50:55.799 state representation? 00:50:55.799 --> 00:50:57.589 They told us they were going to be here. 00:50:57.889 --> 00:50:59.639 Where are they? 00:50:59.939 --> 00:51:01.279 They were nowhere to be found. 00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:02.810 They told us they were gonna show up. 00:51:03.049 --> 00:51:04.179 They ghosted us, 00:51:06.909 --> 00:51:07.949 100% ghosted us. 00:51:08.629 --> 00:51:10.029 JACK: There was nobody there 00:51:10.189 --> 00:51:12.119 to defend Justin or Gary. 00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:14.019 The three contacts on their 00:51:14.020 --> 00:51:15.940 get-out-of-jail-free card did not 00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:17.520 come like they said they would. 00:51:18.250 --> 00:51:19.579 This was just too soon for 00:51:19.579 --> 00:51:21.049 anyone from Coalfire to be able 00:51:21.049 --> 00:51:22.209 to come down and help, either. 00:51:22.829 --> 00:51:23.850 So, they were just standing 00:51:23.850 --> 00:51:25.850 there completely baffled and 00:51:25.879 --> 00:51:27.799 irate that this was happening. 00:51:28.289 --> 00:51:29.679 JUSTIN: I will say at one point during 00:51:29.680 --> 00:51:31.146 this exchange the judge is looking 00:51:31.146 --> 00:51:32.719 at Gary and she’s like, you need to 00:51:32.720 --> 00:51:34.489 come up with a better story because 00:51:34.570 --> 00:51:36.279 nobody here is believing this, to 00:51:36.279 --> 00:51:38.660 which Gary retorts, well, you should 00:51:38.660 --> 00:51:40.000 talk to the sheriff because the 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.119 deputies last night had verified us. 00:51:42.209 --> 00:51:43.990 Everyone believed us until we’re here 00:51:43.990 --> 00:51:45.359 sitting in front of this courtroom. 00:51:45.549 --> 00:51:46.839 He looks over at the sheriff and 00:51:46.839 --> 00:51:48.310 the sheriff is just kind of like… 00:51:48.540 --> 00:51:49.909 GARY: He just smiled and shrugged. 00:51:50.180 --> 00:51:51.249 He didn’t say anything. 00:51:53.669 --> 00:51:55.239 Again, in our minds, we’re like, don’t you 00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:57.440 have some sort of ethical responsibility 00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.479 to say, actually ma’am, we did verify 00:51:59.479 --> 00:52:01.439 with someone that worked for the state. 00:52:01.790 --> 00:52:04.409 However, we haven’t fully confirmed 00:52:04.409 --> 00:52:04.956 that, or something of that nature. 00:52:04.956 --> 00:52:06.070 JUSTIN: Sure, yeah, anything. 00:52:06.169 --> 00:52:06.600 GARY: Not a word. 00:52:06.680 --> 00:52:06.919 JUSTIN: Nothing. 00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:11.050 JACK: What a frustrating situation. 00:52:11.059 --> 00:52:12.989 Yes, they broke into the courthouse, but 00:52:12.989 --> 00:52:16.339 they had 100% permission to do so by the 00:52:16.339 --> 00:52:18.380 information officer, the director, and 00:52:18.380 --> 00:52:20.130 the head of infrastructure for the Iowa 00:52:20.139 --> 00:52:22.829 State Judicial Branch, the very state 00:52:22.829 --> 00:52:24.739 department that runs these courthouses. 00:52:25.059 --> 00:52:25.729 GARY: Then she read the 00:52:25.729 --> 00:52:26.859 address of where we broke in. 00:52:27.509 --> 00:52:29.320 She realized that it was her courthouse 00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:32.039 and her courtroom, and she was mad. 00:52:32.040 --> 00:52:32.530 JUSTIN: Irate. 00:52:32.610 --> 00:52:34.039 GARY: She was like, how dare 00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:35.839 you break into my courthouse and 00:52:35.839 --> 00:52:38.010 my courtroom at this address? 00:52:38.289 --> 00:52:39.159 She just went off. 00:52:39.669 --> 00:52:41.739 Then she’s like, bail is set for $50,000. 00:52:43.009 --> 00:52:44.529 Our bail originally was $5,000. 00:52:44.529 --> 00:52:45.539 JUSTIN: Ten, ten times 00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:45.589 [inaudible] bail for burglary. 00:52:45.589 --> 00:52:45.749 GARY: Yeah, 00:52:47.979 --> 00:52:49.124 ten times the amount. 00:52:49.124 --> 00:52:49.440 JUSTIN: Yeah. 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:50.170 JACK: That’s just how much 00:52:50.170 --> 00:52:51.319 bail was set for Gary. 00:52:51.389 --> 00:52:53.254 JUSTIN: So, I go up shortly there — that’s 00:52:53.254 --> 00:52:54.590 pretty much the end of the exchange. 00:52:54.590 --> 00:52:56.119 I go up, and same deal, 00:52:56.119 --> 00:52:56.989 I don’t believe this. 00:52:56.989 --> 00:52:58.259 I’m like, well, we were authorized 00:52:58.300 --> 00:52:59.860 by the state to perform this testing. 00:53:00.029 --> 00:53:01.079 After seeing what Gary had gone 00:53:01.080 --> 00:53:02.330 through, I’m like, there’s no point. 00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:04.270 Don’t open your mouth and 00:53:04.270 --> 00:53:05.289 say something that could be 00:53:05.289 --> 00:53:06.499 potentially incriminating here. 00:53:06.500 --> 00:53:08.840 So, I’m like, okay, we’re 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:10.180 gonna do this, I suppose. 00:53:12.139 --> 00:53:14.319 Gary and I again trudged back across the 00:53:14.319 --> 00:53:16.229 street, back into our holding cells where 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:19.789 Gary has cell mates of a wide variety. 00:53:20.089 --> 00:53:21.620 But one says to him — he’s 00:53:21.620 --> 00:53:24.289 like, man, I can’t believe that. 00:53:24.479 --> 00:53:27.080 You went up there as professional as 00:53:27.080 --> 00:53:28.390 could be and she disrespected you. 00:53:28.390 --> 00:53:29.040 Even the inmates just 00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:34.239 looked at us. 00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:34.990 They were like, man, you 00:53:34.990 --> 00:53:36.939 guys are so innocent. 00:53:37.170 --> 00:53:38.410 They didn’t even have 00:53:38.410 --> 00:53:39.530 to listen to our story. 00:53:39.530 --> 00:53:40.919 They were like, just the way you guys 00:53:40.930 --> 00:53:42.439 talk and the way you carry yourselves 00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:43.950 and the way you look, they’re like, man, 00:53:43.950 --> 00:53:45.509 you don’t look like you belong here. 00:53:45.510 --> 00:53:46.799 Like, what are you doing here? 00:53:46.990 --> 00:53:48.029 JACK: Justin’s bail was 00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:50.440 also set for $50,000. 00:53:50.900 --> 00:53:52.649 So, the way bail works in the US is that 00:53:52.650 --> 00:53:54.410 you can either sit in jail until your 00:53:54.410 --> 00:53:56.450 court case or you can pay this amount to 00:53:56.450 --> 00:53:58.009 get out of jail and come back for court. 00:53:58.070 --> 00:53:58.859 JUSTIN: At that point we’re 00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:00.780 facing felony charges. 00:54:00.939 --> 00:54:02.999 We’re facing felony burglary charges 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:05.319 and felony possession of burglary tools. 00:54:05.349 --> 00:54:06.530 So, we’re in a criminal 00:54:06.570 --> 00:54:07.989 trial at that point, so… 00:54:07.989 --> 00:54:09.290 GARY: And looking at seven 00:54:09.290 --> 00:54:10.579 years in prison as well, seven. 00:54:10.579 --> 00:54:11.999 JUSTIN: Right, right. 00:54:12.590 --> 00:54:14.079 JACK: Still, they hoped any moment 00:54:14.110 --> 00:54:15.310 their point of contacts would 00:54:15.310 --> 00:54:16.739 come and sort everything out. 00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:18.699 But the situation was becoming less 00:54:18.699 --> 00:54:21.250 hopeful, so Gary and Justin got some more 00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:23.169 phone calls and eventually got Coalfire 00:54:23.169 --> 00:54:25.159 on the phone and tell them everything, 00:54:25.169 --> 00:54:26.979 and Coalfire immediately started working 00:54:26.980 --> 00:54:28.509 to bail them out and to get help. 00:54:29.220 --> 00:54:31.269 So, about twenty hours after going 00:54:31.269 --> 00:54:34.639 to jail, the $100,000 in bail money 00:54:34.669 --> 00:54:36.919 came through and they were let go. 00:54:37.540 --> 00:54:39.280 At this point it’s Thursday and 00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:41.150 their return flight is on Saturday. 00:54:41.290 --> 00:54:42.419 JUSTIN: Oh yeah, Coalfire 00:54:42.419 --> 00:54:42.989 gave us permission. 00:54:42.989 --> 00:54:44.279 They’re like, do whatever it takes. 00:54:44.279 --> 00:54:45.659 Get out of that state. 00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:46.619 Come back home, boys. 00:54:47.290 --> 00:54:48.180 GARY: Leave that place. 00:54:48.250 --> 00:54:49.280 JUSTIN: Yeah, we booked earlier flights. 00:54:49.290 --> 00:54:49.530 JACK: [Music] 00:54:53.339 --> 00:54:55.600 Both Gary and Justin go back home and 00:54:55.600 --> 00:54:57.070 get lawyers to help them with this. 00:54:57.220 --> 00:54:58.939 Something had gone terribly wrong, 00:54:58.970 --> 00:55:00.550 but they still weren’t sure what. 00:55:00.879 --> 00:55:02.889 Why was nobody listening to reason here? 00:55:03.250 --> 00:55:05.650 Why are they even being blamed for this? 00:55:05.650 --> 00:55:07.219 This should be a contract dispute, 00:55:07.259 --> 00:55:08.839 not fall on these two guys. 00:55:09.269 --> 00:55:10.259 Felony charges? 00:55:10.829 --> 00:55:12.339 The local news ran a story. 00:55:12.430 --> 00:55:14.089 REPORTER: Two men arrested for breaking 00:55:14.089 --> 00:55:16.239 into the Dallas County Courthouse say 00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:18.660 they were hired to do it by the state. 00:55:19.049 --> 00:55:21.069 Justin Wynn and Gary DeMercurio 00:55:23.070 --> 00:55:25.399 are both now charged with third-degree 00:55:25.409 --> 00:55:28.259 burglary and possession of burglary tools. 00:55:28.299 --> 00:55:29.569 They were taken into custody 00:55:29.570 --> 00:55:31.409 around 12:30 Wednesday morning. 00:55:32.470 --> 00:55:33.449 As KCCI’s Alex Schuman shows 00:55:33.449 --> 00:55:35.079 us now, the men say they were 00:55:35.080 --> 00:55:36.920 doing cybersecurity work. 00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:38.189 ALEX: The state court administration 00:55:38.190 --> 00:55:39.709 says they did hire this company to 00:55:39.709 --> 00:55:41.600 test the security of their electronic 00:55:41.600 --> 00:55:43.499 records but did not intend for them to 00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:45.410 physically break into the courthouse. 00:55:45.529 --> 00:55:46.930 Not many had yet heard what 00:55:46.940 --> 00:55:48.529 happened, but once they learned, 00:55:48.619 --> 00:55:50.260 people had plenty of opinion. 00:55:50.289 --> 00:55:51.350 BYSTANDER: They need to be arrested. 00:55:52.180 --> 00:55:54.810 There’s no trying to break in, period. 00:55:55.069 --> 00:55:55.909 Lock ‘em up. 00:55:56.319 --> 00:55:56.949 Throw away the key. 00:55:56.970 --> 00:55:57.630 I don’t care. 00:55:58.669 --> 00:55:59.990 JACK: Well, that bystander 00:55:59.990 --> 00:56:01.210 they interviewed I guess didn’t 00:56:01.210 --> 00:56:02.299 like them for some reason. 00:56:02.809 --> 00:56:04.089 But you might have caught in this news 00:56:04.089 --> 00:56:05.879 clip where they said the Judicial Branch 00:56:05.879 --> 00:56:09.139 did not intend for these two to break in. 00:56:09.669 --> 00:56:11.039 Well, the next few months of 00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:12.640 this ordeal were painful and 00:56:12.640 --> 00:56:14.789 grueling for many people involved. 00:56:15.229 --> 00:56:17.099 The news reports I read said they 00:56:17.099 --> 00:56:18.360 interviewed the State Judicial 00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:20.099 Branch, who claimed that they didn’t 00:56:20.099 --> 00:56:21.850 know a physical assessment was gonna 00:56:21.850 --> 00:56:24.100 happen, but then Coalfire outlined 00:56:24.110 --> 00:56:25.630 in the contract to show them that 00:56:25.680 --> 00:56:27.420 a physical assessment was approved. 00:56:27.930 --> 00:56:29.390 So, then the state changed their mind 00:56:29.390 --> 00:56:31.080 and said, well, yeah, we knew that was 00:56:31.080 --> 00:56:33.050 happening, but this was happening outside 00:56:33.050 --> 00:56:34.830 the hours described in the contract. 00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:37.550 But then Coalfire said, we left a 00:56:37.550 --> 00:56:39.509 calling card on your desk overnight and 00:56:39.510 --> 00:56:41.610 you e-mailed us saying congratulations. 00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.249 Why didn’t you tell us to stop then? 00:56:43.789 --> 00:56:45.420 The state went on to say, okay, 00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:46.914 sure, but we didn’t know you were 00:56:46.914 --> 00:56:48.729 going to break into courthouses. 00:56:49.160 --> 00:56:50.759 But yet again Coalfire showed them 00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:52.230 the contract and showed them the 00:56:52.230 --> 00:56:54.240 exact locations of the addresses of 00:56:54.259 --> 00:56:56.699 each building intended to be tested, 00:56:56.739 --> 00:56:59.020 which included a few courthouses. 00:56:59.570 --> 00:57:01.079 Eventually the State Judicial 00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:03.029 Branch ran out of fingers for 00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:05.270 pointing at Coalfire as the problem. 00:57:06.029 --> 00:57:08.130 But while that certainly fanned 00:57:08.130 --> 00:57:09.939 the flames of this problem, it 00:57:09.939 --> 00:57:11.669 wasn’t the main fuel source. 00:57:12.219 --> 00:57:15.979 See, this was a county courthouse, and it 00:57:15.980 --> 00:57:18.560 was a state department that hired them. 00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:21.749 State and county are two different things. 00:57:22.189 --> 00:57:23.970 So, the sheriff, judge, and county 00:57:23.970 --> 00:57:25.380 prosecutor were sticking with 00:57:25.380 --> 00:57:27.179 the story that the state had no 00:57:27.209 --> 00:57:29.069 authorization to conduct a physical 00:57:29.070 --> 00:57:30.999 penetration test on this building. 00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:34.279 This was the main crux of the issue, and 00:57:34.279 --> 00:57:36.749 if the county was not aware that this was 00:57:36.750 --> 00:57:39.039 going on, then they had to assume that 00:57:39.040 --> 00:57:41.390 Gary and Justin were actual criminals. 00:57:42.080 --> 00:57:43.619 If the state had no authorization 00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:44.779 to conduct these tests on this 00:57:44.779 --> 00:57:46.320 building, then it would be the same 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:48.309 as if that gas station attendant 00:57:48.330 --> 00:57:49.970 across the street sort of paid 00:57:49.970 --> 00:57:51.450 them to go break into the building. 00:57:51.900 --> 00:57:53.000 So, from the prosecutor’s 00:57:53.009 --> 00:57:54.479 perspective, they thought these 00:57:54.479 --> 00:57:56.450 two guys were actual criminals. 00:57:56.729 --> 00:57:59.169 GARY: Well, so, here’s the caveat, 00:57:59.169 --> 00:58:00.959 is after all this was said and 00:58:00.959 --> 00:58:02.210 done and we were bailed out, 00:58:02.709 --> 00:58:05.429 the state ordered a third-party 00:58:05.430 --> 00:58:08.179 investigation into this scenario. 00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:12.179 There was a lawyer — well, a law firm 00:58:12.459 --> 00:58:14.329 that performed the investigation. 00:58:14.649 --> 00:58:17.439 The final findings, which are public — the 00:58:17.439 --> 00:58:20.520 very end of those findings, that lawyer is 00:58:20.520 --> 00:58:22.619 looking at some sort of precedence, right? 00:58:22.629 --> 00:58:25.759 All law is based on a case before, right? 00:58:26.049 --> 00:58:26.549 That’s where you get 00:58:26.549 --> 00:58:27.199 your legal precedence. 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:29.200 Well, what was — in a similar 00:58:29.219 --> 00:58:30.809 scenario, what was the judgment? 00:58:31.759 --> 00:58:33.950 So, because this has very little 00:58:33.950 --> 00:58:36.029 precedent associated with this, it’s 00:58:36.029 --> 00:58:37.519 up for interpretation of the law. 00:58:38.059 --> 00:58:40.009 During this third-party investigation, 00:58:40.020 --> 00:58:42.060 that lawyer’s interpretation of the 00:58:42.080 --> 00:58:46.149 law was the state had legal authority 00:58:46.330 --> 00:58:48.719 to authorize a test on county property 00:58:48.959 --> 00:58:50.995 because they are tenants of that property. 00:58:50.995 --> 00:58:51.300 JUSTIN: Yeah. 00:58:51.300 --> 00:58:53.119 It’s their authority to protect that 00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:55.406 courthouse and administer security for it. 00:58:55.406 --> 00:58:55.929 GARY: Right, and the things 00:58:55.929 --> 00:58:57.219 within that courthouse. 00:58:57.389 --> 00:58:57.629 JUSTIN: Right. 00:58:57.629 --> 00:58:59.349 JACK: But the prosecutors 00:58:59.419 --> 00:59:00.559 held their position. 00:59:00.929 --> 00:59:02.839 They started looking through the contract 00:59:02.860 --> 00:59:04.919 to try to find anything that wasn’t right. 00:59:05.250 --> 00:59:07.540 Justin and Gary both went back to work 00:59:07.550 --> 00:59:10.359 for Coalfire during all this, but they 00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:12.759 weren’t able to really focus that well. 00:59:13.059 --> 00:59:15.509 I mean, for one, they had long talks 00:59:15.509 --> 00:59:17.370 with lawyers and going over tons of 00:59:17.389 --> 00:59:18.980 evidence and documents with them. 00:59:19.589 --> 00:59:21.630 This is hard to find time to do when 00:59:21.630 --> 00:59:23.810 you’re typically spending a week at a 00:59:23.810 --> 00:59:26.210 client’s site doing a penetration test. 00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:28.760 This news made its way around, so 00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:30.529 if Gary or Justin got on a call 00:59:30.530 --> 00:59:32.750 with a client to do a pen test, some 00:59:32.750 --> 00:59:34.079 clients wanted to hear the whole 00:59:34.080 --> 00:59:36.110 story about what happened in Iowa. 00:59:36.670 --> 00:59:38.330 So, it was just really distracting. 00:59:39.170 --> 00:59:40.459 Of course, they were arrested with 00:59:40.469 --> 00:59:43.129 felony charges, so some clients have 00:59:43.129 --> 00:59:45.009 sensitive buildings and they do background 00:59:45.010 --> 00:59:46.799 checks on the penetration testers. 00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:48.709 But with felony charges, they 00:59:48.709 --> 00:59:50.600 weren’t able to do these assignments. 00:59:50.830 --> 00:59:52.890 They spent months battling this out with 00:59:52.890 --> 00:59:55.270 the prosecutors, and a lot of what I know 00:59:55.270 --> 00:59:57.040 about this story was through documents 00:59:57.040 --> 00:59:59.489 published by the Iowa State Courts. 00:59:59.879 --> 01:00:01.389 There was some great journalism work 01:00:01.410 --> 01:00:03.369 by Ars Technica, which got a lot of 01:00:03.379 --> 01:00:05.489 the documents and posted them publicly. 01:00:06.169 --> 01:00:07.660 Here is where I see the rules of 01:00:07.660 --> 01:00:09.449 engagements and the positions that the 01:00:09.450 --> 01:00:11.099 state took on various things and how 01:00:11.099 --> 01:00:12.459 they broke into different buildings. 01:00:12.799 --> 01:00:14.520 In fact, somebody even interviewed 01:00:14.520 --> 01:00:16.029 the Iowa senators to see what 01:00:16.029 --> 01:00:17.230 they had to say about this. 01:00:17.629 --> 01:00:20.360 Senator Amy Sinclair said, quote, “The 01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:22.380 hiring of an outside company to break 01:00:22.389 --> 01:00:24.519 into the courthouse in September created 01:00:24.519 --> 01:00:26.689 significant danger not only to the 01:00:26.689 --> 01:00:28.970 contractors but to local law enforcement 01:00:28.989 --> 01:00:30.999 and members of the public.” End quote. 01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:33.339 Also, Senator Zach Whiting 01:00:33.339 --> 01:00:34.179 had something to say. 01:00:34.189 --> 01:00:36.349 He said, quote, “Essentially, a branch 01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:38.050 of government has contracted with a 01:00:38.059 --> 01:00:40.509 company to commit crimes, and this is 01:00:40.509 --> 01:00:42.719 very troubling. I want to find out who 01:00:42.739 --> 01:00:44.320 needs to be held accountable for this 01:00:44.349 --> 01:00:46.249 and how we can do that.” End quote. 01:00:46.839 --> 01:00:48.449 So, eventually when the third-party 01:00:48.449 --> 01:00:50.199 investigation was complete, which 01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:51.889 said that the state had jurisdiction 01:00:51.889 --> 01:00:53.809 to hire Coalfire to run these tests 01:00:53.869 --> 01:00:55.499 and the state point-of-contacts all 01:00:55.509 --> 01:00:57.250 approved that Coalfire was hired to 01:00:57.250 --> 01:00:59.360 do it, all this came together and 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.159 was given to the county prosecutor. 01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:02.569 JUSTIN: So, all that comes to light, 01:01:02.570 --> 01:01:04.559 and eventually — I think it was a month 01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:06.979 after the county had the opportunity 01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:09.059 to either drop charges or to continue 01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:10.910 pressing charges, at which point 01:01:10.919 --> 01:01:14.480 they decided, okay, felony charges 01:01:14.509 --> 01:01:16.089 aren’t really relevant here, but we’re 01:01:16.089 --> 01:01:18.139 gonna drop this down to misdemeanor 01:01:18.139 --> 01:01:20.049 trespassing charges, which I think they 01:01:20.049 --> 01:01:22.429 expected us to immediately say, yep, 01:01:22.459 --> 01:01:24.050 yep, we’re guilty, we’ll take that, 01:01:24.050 --> 01:01:25.889 which of course from our perspective, 01:01:25.899 --> 01:01:27.419 we’re legally hired for this job. 01:01:27.649 --> 01:01:29.409 No chance in hell we’re gonna plead 01:01:29.419 --> 01:01:31.349 guilty to misdemeanor trespassing 01:01:31.349 --> 01:01:33.219 charges even though it’s essentially 01:01:33.220 --> 01:01:35.100 a traffic ticket violation or 01:01:35.100 --> 01:01:36.669 something similar at that point. 01:01:36.879 --> 01:01:38.410 We weren’t going to go along with that. 01:01:38.410 --> 01:01:39.619 So, we’re still fighting that. 01:01:40.110 --> 01:01:41.829 That fight took place 01:01:41.849 --> 01:01:43.329 over the next four months. 01:01:43.470 --> 01:01:45.019 GARY: All sorts of fights between 01:01:45.020 --> 01:01:46.160 our lawyer and the prosecutor. 01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:47.190 JUSTIN: Oh, constantly. 01:01:47.190 --> 01:01:49.039 GARY: To even get to the point where the 01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:51.129 prosecutor’s like, okay, well, maybe we’ll 01:01:51.819 --> 01:01:53.499 drop it down to criminal trespassing. 01:01:53.629 --> 01:01:55.489 Our lawyer was like, look, man, 01:01:55.839 --> 01:01:57.209 in order for there to be burglary, 01:01:57.209 --> 01:01:59.749 they have to have criminal intent 01:01:59.759 --> 01:02:02.320 to commit a felony after entry. 01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:04.019 These guys were working. 01:02:04.019 --> 01:02:06.290 There is no way that you 01:02:06.290 --> 01:02:07.830 can prove criminal intent. 01:02:09.009 --> 01:02:10.759 So, they did everything in their power. 01:02:10.759 --> 01:02:12.659 They’re like, well, if they dropped a 01:02:12.660 --> 01:02:14.669 key logger on one of the systems, then 01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:17.259 we might be able to – I mean, they 01:02:17.259 --> 01:02:19.950 were grasping at straws to do anything 01:02:19.950 --> 01:02:22.290 and everything in their power to try 01:02:22.290 --> 01:02:25.210 to hopefully make that stick for some 01:02:25.210 --> 01:02:27.180 reason, and they knew at that point; 01:02:27.200 --> 01:02:29.390 they knew we were under contract. 01:02:29.610 --> 01:02:32.650 They knew that we were asked by the 01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:34.700 state to be in that courthouse, and 01:02:34.700 --> 01:02:37.880 they still were pushing for these 01:02:38.199 --> 01:02:40.769 felony charges, these Class C felony 01:02:40.769 --> 01:02:43.409 charges with seven years of prison 01:02:43.410 --> 01:02:46.430 time behind it for I don’t even – I 01:02:46.469 --> 01:02:48.870 still to this day have no idea why they 01:02:48.889 --> 01:02:51.109 kept pushing so hard for this stuff. 01:02:51.489 --> 01:02:52.830 JACK: Eventually the Dallas County 01:02:52.830 --> 01:02:54.549 prosecutors in Iowa came to an 01:02:54.549 --> 01:02:56.240 understanding, and on January 01:02:56.250 --> 01:02:58.989 30th, 2020 they dropped all 01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:01.080 charges against Gary and Justin. 01:03:01.570 --> 01:03:03.339 The case is now over and 01:03:03.340 --> 01:03:04.969 they’re free men once again. 01:03:05.930 --> 01:03:08.270 But what still lingers is their 01:03:08.270 --> 01:03:10.249 criminal record still shows that 01:03:10.250 --> 01:03:11.919 they were arrested for burglary 01:03:12.149 --> 01:03:14.179 and were given felony charges. 01:03:14.189 --> 01:03:15.959 JUSTIN: So, that’s kind of why 01:03:15.959 --> 01:03:17.530 we’re still so upset at this point. 01:03:17.669 --> 01:03:18.259 We’re gonna carry this 01:03:18.259 --> 01:03:19.309 for the rest of our lives. 01:03:19.309 --> 01:03:20.759 We have felony arrest records. 01:03:20.910 --> 01:03:22.300 Even though charges are dismissed, 01:03:22.510 --> 01:03:24.110 everything’s been dropped at this point, 01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:25.950 anytime we get pulled over, if we ever 01:03:25.950 --> 01:03:27.489 try to apply for a job in the future, 01:03:28.330 --> 01:03:30.630 security clearances, and any number of 01:03:30.630 --> 01:03:32.730 things; volunteer work, it’s gonna show 01:03:32.739 --> 01:03:35.379 we’ve been arrested on felony charges. 01:03:35.619 --> 01:03:37.329 So, we’ve been stripped of rights with 01:03:37.330 --> 01:03:39.570 no due process on wrongful arrest. 01:03:39.919 --> 01:03:41.210 JACK: Yeah, it’s a shame. 01:03:41.769 --> 01:03:43.679 Any traffic stops these guys get — when 01:03:43.680 --> 01:03:45.010 the police look up their record, 01:03:45.019 --> 01:03:45.919 it’s gonna show that they were 01:03:45.930 --> 01:03:47.999 once arrested with felony charges. 01:03:48.579 --> 01:03:50.029 Any time in the future where they’re 01:03:50.029 --> 01:03:51.709 on a physical assessment and the 01:03:51.709 --> 01:03:53.660 cops come, they’ll see that they have 01:03:53.669 --> 01:03:55.449 burglary charges on their record, 01:03:55.489 --> 01:03:56.790 which might make the cops think 01:03:56.790 --> 01:03:58.699 like, yeah, these are real burglars. 01:03:58.729 --> 01:04:00.089 Look, they have real charges. 01:04:00.559 --> 01:04:01.690 Any background checks that 01:04:01.690 --> 01:04:02.939 someone does on these two is 01:04:02.939 --> 01:04:04.399 gonna show their criminal history. 01:04:04.909 --> 01:04:06.239 I mean, what do you write when 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:07.669 you’re applying for a job and it asks 01:04:07.669 --> 01:04:09.600 you, have you ever been arrested? 01:04:10.119 --> 01:04:10.830 What do you put? 01:04:10.959 --> 01:04:12.949 Yes, but it was wrongful? 01:04:13.540 --> 01:04:15.109 It doesn’t sound fair to me. 01:04:15.149 --> 01:04:16.389 GARY: Big things, little things. 01:04:16.879 --> 01:04:20.169 It just affected our lives for the 01:04:20.169 --> 01:04:21.369 last six months, like all the time. 01:04:21.369 --> 01:04:22.050 JUSTIN: And honestly 01:04:22.259 --> 01:04:23.539 still will continue to do. 01:04:23.540 --> 01:04:24.769 Like yeah, with the arrest charges. 01:04:24.769 --> 01:04:27.200 But man, just honestly, I know a lot 01:04:27.200 --> 01:04:29.329 of people say a lot stuff; oh, damages, 01:04:29.329 --> 01:04:30.670 I’m so stressed out over this, and 01:04:30.670 --> 01:04:31.769 they want to do a counter-lawsuit. 01:04:31.779 --> 01:04:33.380 Like, no, I think my physical 01:04:33.380 --> 01:04:35.059 brain chemistry has changed over 01:04:35.059 --> 01:04:36.329 this, being so stressed out. 01:04:36.580 --> 01:04:38.619 I sound like a wimp about it, but man, 01:04:39.160 --> 01:04:40.689 you wouldn’t believe it until you’re 01:04:40.720 --> 01:04:42.429 in it and going through something like 01:04:42.429 --> 01:04:44.619 this how stressful and traumatic — I 01:04:44.629 --> 01:04:46.899 don’t even want to use that term ‘cause 01:04:46.899 --> 01:04:48.519 I don’t think — but it is a traumatic 01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:49.870 experience to go through something 01:04:49.870 --> 01:04:51.580 like this and have it held over your 01:04:51.580 --> 01:04:54.149 head for such a long time when you know 01:04:54.149 --> 01:04:55.730 you’re in the right, and then to see 01:04:55.730 --> 01:04:58.499 the legal system fail you repeatedly. 01:04:58.529 --> 01:05:00.309 There were so many opportunities and 01:05:00.330 --> 01:05:02.829 avenues for the county to understand or 01:05:02.830 --> 01:05:04.400 get more information and then drop the 01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:06.179 charges, and it just never happened. 01:05:06.959 --> 01:05:08.699 GARY: I think that was the – that’s 01:05:08.699 --> 01:05:10.543 the biggest detractor from all of this, 01:05:10.543 --> 01:05:12.229 and the point that was so aggravating 01:05:12.229 --> 01:05:16.079 is so many times everybody had every 01:05:16.080 --> 01:05:17.630 opportunity to do the right thing, 01:05:18.110 --> 01:05:20.320 and they just continually didn’t. 01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.430 It was just – it was — for the 01:05:23.430 --> 01:05:24.600 lack of a better term, it was 01:05:24.610 --> 01:05:26.759 like I was flabbergasted, like 01:05:26.770 --> 01:05:28.650 totally old school, right? 01:05:28.650 --> 01:05:32.519 It’s just, how can you do this to someone? 01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:35.450 You know; you know that we weren’t 01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:36.730 there doing anything malicious. 01:05:36.949 --> 01:05:39.390 You know we weren’t actually breaking 01:05:39.390 --> 01:05:42.429 in to do – to create some sort of 01:05:42.430 --> 01:05:44.210 crime or to have some sort of crime. 01:05:44.609 --> 01:05:46.499 You know we were there doing our job. 01:05:46.859 --> 01:05:48.569 Why are you still pushing 01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:50.040 seven years of prison time? 01:05:50.380 --> 01:05:52.609 Why are you still pushing this on us? 01:05:52.739 --> 01:05:55.919 It’s like, they had absolutely no 01:05:55.930 --> 01:05:59.389 mindset, for lack of a better term or 01:05:59.389 --> 01:06:01.259 maybe it is the best term, destroying 01:06:01.289 --> 01:06:04.180 two professionals who have absolutely 01:06:04.709 --> 01:06:07.059 sparkling clean records who’ve never even 01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:09.790 been in trouble for jaywalking before. 01:06:10.239 --> 01:06:10.879 They’re just like, oh, 01:06:10.879 --> 01:06:12.020 no, yeah, no big deal. 01:06:12.789 --> 01:06:13.989 We’ll just keep throwing these 01:06:15.009 --> 01:06:17.099 Class C felony charges at them. 01:06:17.099 --> 01:06:17.859 Yeah, you know, if we 01:06:17.859 --> 01:06:19.220 drop it later, whatever. 01:06:19.750 --> 01:06:20.849 It doesn’t affect us. 01:06:20.849 --> 01:06:21.609 It doesn’t harm us. 01:06:21.619 --> 01:06:22.449 What do we care? 01:06:22.970 --> 01:06:26.580 Just like, the – what do I want to say? 01:06:27.529 --> 01:06:31.509 The lack of sympathy or empathy… 01:06:31.509 --> 01:06:32.089 JUSTIN: Professionalism, empathy. 01:06:32.089 --> 01:06:33.539 GARY: Professional, whatever term you 01:06:33.539 --> 01:06:35.639 want to throw there, just for – not 01:06:35.639 --> 01:06:37.680 even us, but just another human being… 01:06:37.729 --> 01:06:38.519 JUSTIN: For doing what’s right. 01:06:38.729 --> 01:06:40.229 If you’re representing the law, it’s 01:06:40.229 --> 01:06:41.810 a failure of the legal system, which 01:06:41.810 --> 01:06:43.679 I had no idea America worked that way. 01:06:43.680 --> 01:06:44.950 It’s just not the America 01:06:44.950 --> 01:06:45.739 that I was brought up in. 01:06:45.739 --> 01:06:47.419 I thought innocent until proven 01:06:47.419 --> 01:06:49.049 guilty, and just to see us stripped 01:06:49.049 --> 01:06:50.679 of so many rights and to go through 01:06:50.680 --> 01:06:52.969 this, it was just such an awful 01:06:53.250 --> 01:06:55.469 experience to be thrown into this mix. 01:06:55.479 --> 01:06:56.340 GARY: Oh, it was terrible. 01:06:56.680 --> 01:06:57.880 That was the hardest part, was 01:06:57.880 --> 01:06:59.639 watching people do the wrong thing 01:06:59.989 --> 01:07:02.439 repeatedly and thinking it was not a 01:07:02.449 --> 01:07:04.189 big deal, because to them it wasn’t. 01:07:04.729 --> 01:07:06.020 The only big deal was to us, 01:07:06.020 --> 01:07:07.469 but no one seemed to care. 01:07:07.899 --> 01:07:09.969 JACK: And that is where we left off back 01:07:09.970 --> 01:07:12.299 in 2020, when this episode first aired. 01:07:12.759 --> 01:07:14.519 They were arrested but fought it 01:07:14.699 --> 01:07:15.999 and got their charges dropped. 01:07:16.500 --> 01:07:17.229 That should be the end 01:07:17.229 --> 01:07:17.939 of the story, right? 01:07:17.959 --> 01:07:18.679 Well, no. 01:07:18.790 --> 01:07:19.999 There’s more, lots more. 01:07:20.399 --> 01:07:21.829 First was the response from the 01:07:21.839 --> 01:07:23.660 information security community. 01:07:23.660 --> 01:07:25.710 [Music] They were outraged from this. 01:07:25.750 --> 01:07:28.129 This jeopardizes a whole industry. 01:07:28.309 --> 01:07:29.869 People who have gone to college to 01:07:29.879 --> 01:07:32.419 get degrees in this are now seeing 01:07:32.429 --> 01:07:33.970 like, wait, so you can get arrested 01:07:33.970 --> 01:07:35.300 for this, get felony charges and 01:07:35.300 --> 01:07:37.140 be facing seven years in prison? 01:07:37.140 --> 01:07:37.990 What the heck? 01:07:38.289 --> 01:07:39.770 So, a few people from the cybersecurity 01:07:39.770 --> 01:07:41.209 community got together and said, 01:07:41.589 --> 01:07:43.889 what can we do to support these two? 01:07:44.309 --> 01:07:46.329 John Strand came up with a plan. 01:07:46.339 --> 01:07:47.339 I interviewed John Strand 01:07:47.349 --> 01:07:48.149 for an episode before. 01:07:48.149 --> 01:07:49.210 It’s called The Big House, 01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:50.899 where he sent his mom to do a 01:07:50.899 --> 01:07:52.519 penetration test for him once. 01:07:52.589 --> 01:07:53.749 A few weeks ago I ran into 01:07:53.750 --> 01:07:55.490 him at DEFCON and asked him 01:07:55.529 --> 01:07:57.059 what his response to this was. 01:07:57.459 --> 01:07:58.270 Sorry for the background 01:07:58.270 --> 01:07:59.619 noise; DEFCON is a busy place. 01:07:59.619 --> 01:08:01.329 [To John] After that news 01:08:01.330 --> 01:08:04.059 hit, what did you do? 01:08:04.529 --> 01:08:06.289 JOHN: Oh, we immediately went to the town 01:08:06.300 --> 01:08:09.399 of Adel, Iowa, and we did Awareness Con. 01:08:09.949 --> 01:08:11.829 We invited the entire community 01:08:11.830 --> 01:08:14.149 to come down and ask the security 01:08:14.180 --> 01:08:15.730 community questions about what we do. 01:08:15.930 --> 01:08:17.240 JACK: [To audience] Yeah, and because 01:08:17.260 --> 01:08:18.930 John Strand is the founder of Black 01:08:18.930 --> 01:08:20.979 Hills Infosec, he knows a lot of people 01:08:20.979 --> 01:08:22.410 in the industry, and he rounded up 01:08:22.410 --> 01:08:24.950 some big names in cybersecurity; Dave 01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:27.349 Kennedy, Deviant, Jake Williams, all 01:08:27.349 --> 01:08:28.850 of which have been on this show before. 01:08:29.139 --> 01:08:31.000 They all went and gave talks 01:08:31.020 --> 01:08:33.000 in Iowa, because obviously the 01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:35.770 people there had no idea physical 01:08:35.770 --> 01:08:38.259 penetration testing was even a thing. 01:08:38.689 --> 01:08:39.810 You heard that one guy earlier 01:08:39.810 --> 01:08:40.799 in the news interview; he’s like, 01:08:40.830 --> 01:08:42.120 these guys should be locked up. 01:08:42.769 --> 01:08:45.169 If ignorance of the law is no 01:08:45.179 --> 01:08:47.169 excuse, when you're caught breaking 01:08:47.169 --> 01:08:49.309 one, then what about the reverse? 01:08:49.360 --> 01:08:50.809 If the sheriff, the judge, or the 01:08:50.809 --> 01:08:53.020 townspeople are ignorant that this 01:08:53.040 --> 01:08:55.229 is a profession, then should that 01:08:55.340 --> 01:08:57.949 be no excuse to demonize these two? 01:08:58.459 --> 01:09:00.670 But John Strand thought he’s gonna do what 01:09:00.670 --> 01:09:03.649 he can to educate the people in that town, 01:09:03.939 --> 01:09:06.639 to teach them all of this is legitimate. 01:09:06.789 --> 01:09:08.049 There is a whole industry 01:09:08.069 --> 01:09:09.049 of people doing this. 01:09:09.099 --> 01:09:10.539 There are professional conferences, 01:09:10.539 --> 01:09:12.679 degrees, books, certifications 01:09:12.879 --> 01:09:14.959 that you can get to do this. 01:09:15.340 --> 01:09:16.290 JOHN: It’s absolutely wonderful. 01:09:16.290 --> 01:09:17.219 The sheriff, Leonard, 01:09:17.250 --> 01:09:18.909 he came and he talked. 01:09:19.400 --> 01:09:20.919 JACK: Here’s that clip from Awareness 01:09:20.930 --> 01:09:22.409 Con, where the sheriff came to give 01:09:22.409 --> 01:09:23.739 his opinion of this whole thing. 01:09:24.019 --> 01:09:26.390 JOHN: I’m very, very, happy 01:09:26.709 --> 01:09:28.240 Sheriff Leonard has shown up, 01:09:28.729 --> 01:09:30.169 and I asked him how he wanted me 01:09:30.169 --> 01:09:31.889 to introduce him to the group. 01:09:31.970 --> 01:09:33.599 I’m not joking; he said, you 01:09:33.599 --> 01:09:35.229 can introduce me as the bad guy. 01:09:35.639 --> 01:09:38.349 [Audience laughter] So, he 01:09:38.349 --> 01:09:39.539 has a great sense of humor. 01:09:39.549 --> 01:09:41.209 So, everybody, could you please give a 01:09:41.209 --> 01:09:42.419 round of applause for Sheriff Leonard? 01:09:42.419 --> 01:09:43.914 [Applause] 01:09:43.914 --> 01:09:45.409 SHERIFF LEONARD: Well, 01:09:45.409 --> 01:09:46.559 first off, I’m sorry. 01:09:46.559 --> 01:09:47.999 I’m obviously the reason you're all 01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:51.569 here, so — but I wanted to stop here 01:09:51.569 --> 01:09:53.109 and tell you that I have a lot of 01:09:53.110 --> 01:09:54.370 friends that do this for a living, 01:09:54.370 --> 01:09:57.379 too, and — with Homeland Security 01:09:57.379 --> 01:09:58.689 and all those type of things, and 01:09:59.220 --> 01:10:01.029 nothing but supportive of the industry. 01:10:01.029 --> 01:10:03.339 That’s not — there’s just a whole lot 01:10:03.339 --> 01:10:04.859 of things that went into this that 01:10:04.860 --> 01:10:07.839 night that were still in question. 01:10:08.209 --> 01:10:10.630 So, you know, like I was talking 01:10:10.630 --> 01:10:12.719 earlier; getting a lot of hate mail 01:10:12.719 --> 01:10:15.379 and a lot of stuff from the industry 01:10:15.379 --> 01:10:17.389 worldwide, I mean London, everywhere, 01:10:17.629 --> 01:10:20.279 just getting ‘how dare I do this’. 01:10:21.549 --> 01:10:23.869 You know, you gotta look at it 01:10:23.869 --> 01:10:25.349 from law enforcement perspective, 01:10:25.360 --> 01:10:26.419 for what we're responding to. 01:10:27.289 --> 01:10:28.979 You know, if you're telling me that this 01:10:28.989 --> 01:10:31.210 is a — we're just checking your response 01:10:31.210 --> 01:10:33.349 time — and I had five deputies running 140 01:10:34.229 --> 01:10:36.430 miles an hour to get there — that doesn't 01:10:36.830 --> 01:10:38.300 work well, because if one of your family 01:10:38.300 --> 01:10:40.660 members was t-boned by a deputy, you'd 01:10:40.660 --> 01:10:42.549 be mad, especially when you found out it 01:10:42.549 --> 01:10:44.619 was a fake call or something like that. 01:10:44.619 --> 01:10:45.899 That — common sense, that’s 01:10:45.899 --> 01:10:47.049 bad business, you know? 01:10:47.179 --> 01:10:48.459 If somebody would have got killed on the 01:10:48.459 --> 01:10:50.569 road that night — those type of things. 01:10:50.569 --> 01:10:51.429 So, I mean, we just need 01:10:51.429 --> 01:10:52.449 to work better together. 01:10:52.889 --> 01:10:54.489 I don't know if this is a common thing, 01:10:54.489 --> 01:10:55.780 if this is all — you know, but there’s 01:10:55.780 --> 01:10:57.210 a lot of things that we gotta look at. 01:10:57.690 --> 01:10:59.499 The only reason — and the other thing; 01:10:59.509 --> 01:11:01.699 those of you that do the job, I would 01:11:01.699 --> 01:11:03.649 never charge you with a crime and let 01:11:03.649 --> 01:11:05.570 it continue — I don't have the ability 01:11:05.570 --> 01:11:07.639 to dismiss it, but I can work with the 01:11:07.639 --> 01:11:09.240 county attorney and those type of things. 01:11:09.240 --> 01:11:11.790 But at the end of the day, if 01:11:11.790 --> 01:11:15.300 we believe that it truly needs 01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:16.360 to go away, it’ll go away. 01:11:16.360 --> 01:11:17.870 But I guess I just wanted to stop and 01:11:17.870 --> 01:11:19.440 let you guys know that we do appreciate 01:11:19.440 --> 01:11:21.410 you and what you're doing, and it is 01:11:21.410 --> 01:11:24.620 a needed — what you do is very needed. 01:11:24.620 --> 01:11:25.240 I couldn't do it. 01:11:25.299 --> 01:11:26.419 I don't know how to do this stuff. 01:11:27.120 --> 01:11:28.939 I rely on you folks to help us. 01:11:29.879 --> 01:11:31.369 The two gentlemen that night, they're 01:11:31.369 --> 01:11:33.980 good guys, but you gotta understand that 01:11:34.350 --> 01:11:37.980 when you come here in rural Iowa from 01:11:37.980 --> 01:11:40.089 Florida, you're from Seattle, Washington, 01:11:40.559 --> 01:11:42.229 chances of you coming back when I ask 01:11:42.230 --> 01:11:43.670 you to come back and answer questions 01:11:43.670 --> 01:11:45.270 are slim to none, I promise you that. 01:11:45.709 --> 01:11:48.379 So, we just — I just met you, so you're 01:11:48.380 --> 01:11:49.929 not gonna — there’s a whole lot of 01:11:49.930 --> 01:11:51.450 questions that go into these things in 01:11:51.450 --> 01:11:53.609 the middle of the night that we have 01:11:53.610 --> 01:11:55.290 to — we have to put all that together. 01:11:55.290 --> 01:11:57.369 So, I just wanted to stop and tell you 01:11:57.629 --> 01:12:00.769 that there is no friction between — as 01:12:00.770 --> 01:12:02.610 far as I’m concerned, between us. 01:12:02.820 --> 01:12:04.680 Just asking that you kinda wait for it. 01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:06.449 We're not out to prosecute anybody. 01:12:06.449 --> 01:12:08.079 I would never charge any one of you with 01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:11.019 a crime if I didn't think it was valid. 01:12:12.480 --> 01:12:14.769 If it’s proven down the road and if we 01:12:14.779 --> 01:12:16.379 get through this investigation with all 01:12:16.379 --> 01:12:18.469 these other agencies and it needs to go 01:12:18.470 --> 01:12:20.080 away, I’ll advocate for it to go away. 01:12:20.489 --> 01:12:21.790 I wouldn't want any one of you to have a 01:12:21.790 --> 01:12:24.399 criminal history that you didn't deserve. 01:12:24.409 --> 01:12:26.399 So, if I could recommend anything, 01:12:26.400 --> 01:12:28.270 it would be work with your local law 01:12:28.270 --> 01:12:29.310 enforcement when you're doing it. 01:12:29.580 --> 01:12:30.159 I would have helped. 01:12:30.839 --> 01:12:31.849 If I would have known about it, 01:12:31.849 --> 01:12:32.739 I would have helped you do it. 01:12:33.139 --> 01:12:33.940 You know, I would have helped 01:12:33.949 --> 01:12:37.120 them accomplish their mission 01:12:37.949 --> 01:12:39.859 that night, so — and we wouldn't 01:12:39.949 --> 01:12:41.099 have any of these problems. 01:12:41.099 --> 01:12:43.590 So — but anyway. 01:12:44.849 --> 01:12:46.649 JACK: I think Awareness Con did, in 01:12:46.650 --> 01:12:48.519 fact, change the hearts and minds of 01:12:48.540 --> 01:12:50.369 those living in Iowa, because after that 01:12:50.369 --> 01:12:51.800 there was much more support for these 01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:53.649 two penetration testers who got arrested. 01:12:54.040 --> 01:12:55.110 They were starting to come 01:12:55.110 --> 01:12:56.599 around and feel sorry for them. 01:12:57.040 --> 01:12:58.229 Some were even saying, please 01:12:58.229 --> 01:13:00.009 don't judge Iowa based on this. 01:13:00.419 --> 01:13:03.469 So, while I was at DEFCON, I ran into 01:13:03.470 --> 01:13:05.469 those two penetration testers from 01:13:05.470 --> 01:13:07.159 this Iowa County Courthouse story, 01:13:07.579 --> 01:13:09.469 and it’s now been six years since 01:13:09.500 --> 01:13:11.419 this happened and we last spoke. 01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:13.590 So, I wanted to get together with 01:13:13.590 --> 01:13:14.959 them and find a spot at DEFCON 01:13:15.459 --> 01:13:17.429 and sit down and hear what’s new. 01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:19.389 [To guests] So, you got arrested, got 01:13:19.389 --> 01:13:21.119 your charges, got the charges dropped. 01:13:22.179 --> 01:13:23.210 Story’s over, right? 01:13:24.849 --> 01:13:26.160 Anything else happen since then? 01:13:26.160 --> 01:13:28.000 GABBY: A couple things. 01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:29.150 JACK: What’s new with you? 01:13:31.160 --> 01:13:32.750 GABBY: I mean, so, have you ever 01:13:32.750 --> 01:13:34.006 heard that thing where like — you 01:13:34.006 --> 01:13:35.429 go to prison and you turn gay? 01:13:36.809 --> 01:13:38.230 Yeah, I’m not gay, but 01:13:38.230 --> 01:13:39.359 definitely turned into a girl. 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:42.480 JACK: Gary has changed her name to Gabby. 01:13:42.550 --> 01:13:43.189 GABBY: Well, it’s my handle. 01:13:43.190 --> 01:13:44.560 I just, I guess, absorbed the 01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:46.080 handle Gabby, yeah, 'cause I 01:13:46.080 --> 01:13:47.719 can — like to be anyone I want to be. 01:13:48.309 --> 01:13:49.509 JACK: You got your charges dropped. 01:13:49.550 --> 01:13:51.030 So, after charges are dropped, 01:13:51.519 --> 01:13:53.549 are you like, I’m good? 01:13:53.580 --> 01:13:55.099 Like, I can finally go back to 01:13:55.099 --> 01:13:56.579 my life, everything is fine. 01:13:58.110 --> 01:13:59.279 GABBY: I don't feel like it was like 01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:02.079 that at all because there was so 01:14:02.080 --> 01:14:03.639 many things they said that just were 01:14:03.639 --> 01:14:07.329 not accurate or just outward lies, 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:11.470 fabrications like changing the narrative 01:14:13.340 --> 01:14:16.100 just to say, oh, cool, we're innocent. 01:14:16.110 --> 01:14:16.870 Well, no shit. 01:14:17.170 --> 01:14:19.010 Obviously we're innocent the entire 01:14:19.010 --> 01:14:20.470 time, which is why we never settled 01:14:20.470 --> 01:14:22.040 for anything the entire time. 01:14:23.460 --> 01:14:24.850 So, them dropping it would 01:14:24.850 --> 01:14:26.530 almost be like them doing us a 01:14:26.530 --> 01:14:28.810 favor, which was not the case. 01:14:29.139 --> 01:14:31.359 They did themselves no favors 01:14:31.359 --> 01:14:33.279 by dropping it other than 01:14:33.350 --> 01:14:34.739 embarrassing themselves further. 01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:36.579 That was for them, definitely not for us. 01:14:36.579 --> 01:14:37.569 JACK: Well, what more can you 01:14:37.570 --> 01:14:39.290 do after charges are dropped? 01:14:39.740 --> 01:14:41.040 GABBY: That’s part of the judicial 01:14:41.040 --> 01:14:43.009 system that’s messed up, is you're 01:14:43.079 --> 01:14:44.549 guilty until proven innocent. 01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:47.089 You spend time in jail, you get 01:14:47.090 --> 01:14:48.169 your name dragged through the mud, 01:14:48.180 --> 01:14:49.469 they lie about everything, and then 01:14:49.469 --> 01:14:52.229 there’s zero repercussions unless you 01:14:52.230 --> 01:14:54.389 go after them for a personal suit. 01:14:55.020 --> 01:14:55.450 JACK: [Music] A personal 01:14:55.450 --> 01:14:57.599 lawsuit, is that possible? 01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:00.449 Can you sue for wrongful arrest? 01:15:01.070 --> 01:15:02.920 They felt like something seriously 01:15:02.939 --> 01:15:04.639 unjust happened to them, and they 01:15:04.639 --> 01:15:06.809 wanted to do something to make it right. 01:15:08.289 --> 01:15:09.479 JUSTIN: I think Gabby was already 01:15:09.480 --> 01:15:10.299 thinking about you looking at 01:15:10.309 --> 01:15:11.729 her mugshot, smiling in there. 01:15:11.730 --> 01:15:12.569 She was already thinking about the 01:15:12.570 --> 01:15:14.330 lawsuit as soon as the cuffs went on. 01:15:15.260 --> 01:15:16.090 GABBY: Pretty much. 01:15:17.040 --> 01:15:18.719 JACK: You were in the jail cells 01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:19.589 saying, as soon as I get outta 01:15:19.589 --> 01:15:20.430 here I’m gonna sue these guys. 01:15:20.430 --> 01:15:22.189 GABBY: Oh, my — 'cause I knew we had 01:15:22.189 --> 01:15:25.170 done — we were the most cooperative — at 01:15:25.170 --> 01:15:29.179 least one of us was for 99% of the time. 01:15:29.570 --> 01:15:30.679 The other was 100%. 01:15:31.729 --> 01:15:34.299 But again, you had nothing 01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:36.189 wrong with what you did. 01:15:36.439 --> 01:15:38.070 They were being super invasive. 01:15:38.080 --> 01:15:38.750 JUSTIN: Oh, I don't trust them 01:15:39.020 --> 01:15:40.030 to give me my information. 01:15:40.089 --> 01:15:41.069 I saw how they secure things. 01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:42.469 GABBY: But that was — it’s a 01:15:42.470 --> 01:15:43.449 good learning point, right? 01:15:43.449 --> 01:15:45.139 Because we're like, we did nothing wrong. 01:15:45.389 --> 01:15:46.830 We're gonna be completely cooperative. 01:15:46.830 --> 01:15:48.210 We're gonna do everything, and then 01:15:48.210 --> 01:15:50.369 you do everything right, and then they 01:15:50.369 --> 01:15:52.449 just lie about stuff to try to cover 01:15:52.449 --> 01:15:53.919 their own butt and to try to make it 01:15:53.919 --> 01:15:55.640 look like they didn't do anything wrong. 01:15:55.640 --> 01:15:57.329 You're like, wait a minute, I was 01:15:57.329 --> 01:15:59.629 truthful, I was honest, I cooperated with 01:15:59.629 --> 01:16:00.839 you guys and then you turn around and 01:16:00.839 --> 01:16:02.339 you completely spin the narrative so you 01:16:02.339 --> 01:16:03.499 don't get in trouble or you don't look 01:16:03.500 --> 01:16:05.959 bad or to save your job or whatever it is. 01:16:05.969 --> 01:16:09.950 So, not cooperating to me sounds like the 01:16:09.950 --> 01:16:12.409 right choice after going through that. 01:16:12.959 --> 01:16:14.459 JACK: Suing the sheriff felt like 01:16:14.459 --> 01:16:15.939 the right choice for them, making 01:16:15.939 --> 01:16:17.669 him pay for the wrongs that he’s 01:16:17.669 --> 01:16:19.789 caused, expose the errors in his 01:16:19.789 --> 01:16:21.979 ways, make him the guilty one. 01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:24.259 But to conduct a lawsuit such 01:16:24.259 --> 01:16:26.329 as this, it was going to cost a 01:16:26.330 --> 01:16:28.490 lot of time and a lot of money. 01:16:28.809 --> 01:16:31.889 GABBY: We actually had our 01:16:31.910 --> 01:16:33.589 original lawyer and we asked him. 01:16:33.660 --> 01:16:35.339 Like, I think we would really like 01:16:35.339 --> 01:16:38.429 to go after the county and the state 01:16:38.470 --> 01:16:40.759 and the sheriff, because people 01:16:40.759 --> 01:16:42.259 need to know that this is not okay. 01:16:42.259 --> 01:16:43.269 Like, they just can't get 01:16:43.269 --> 01:16:44.399 away with stuff like this. 01:16:45.489 --> 01:16:48.819 He had a real — he was afraid to do 01:16:48.819 --> 01:16:50.929 it, for lack of a better term, because 01:16:50.929 --> 01:16:52.379 he’s like, this is small-town Iowa. 01:16:52.379 --> 01:16:53.099 It’s not big. 01:16:53.110 --> 01:16:54.460 Everybody knows who I am, and I feel 01:16:54.460 --> 01:16:56.599 like if I go after the county and 01:16:56.599 --> 01:16:59.100 the state and the sheriff and all 01:16:59.100 --> 01:17:00.369 these lawmakers, especially after 01:17:00.369 --> 01:17:01.939 they had that investigation — and 01:17:02.649 --> 01:17:03.730 he’s like, I don't know that that 01:17:03.730 --> 01:17:05.329 would be great for my career at all. 01:17:05.779 --> 01:17:07.169 JACK: So, their lawyer made a few phone 01:17:07.169 --> 01:17:09.190 calls and found them another lawyer 01:17:09.240 --> 01:17:11.680 named Marty who was just about to retire. 01:17:12.310 --> 01:17:13.100 GABBY: He’s a civil rights 01:17:13.100 --> 01:17:14.540 lawyer and he loved the case. 01:17:14.670 --> 01:17:15.930 He’s like, I will take it on. 01:17:15.930 --> 01:17:16.970 I’ll do it pro bono. 01:17:17.440 --> 01:17:18.830 He’s like, I’ve made my money. 01:17:19.210 --> 01:17:21.070 Like, I — he’s literally at 01:17:21.070 --> 01:17:22.010 the twilight of his career. 01:17:22.030 --> 01:17:23.580 He extended his career 01:17:24.980 --> 01:17:26.149 to finish this case. 01:17:26.369 --> 01:17:27.270 JACK: So, they got a new lawyer, 01:17:27.270 --> 01:17:28.759 and they wanted to sue the sheriff, 01:17:28.770 --> 01:17:30.500 the prosecutor, the judge, all 01:17:30.500 --> 01:17:31.899 these people who treated them bad. 01:17:32.410 --> 01:17:34.559 But this is where Gabby and Justin started 01:17:34.559 --> 01:17:36.950 learning some new words, words like… 01:17:37.039 --> 01:17:38.079 GABBY: Qualified immunity. 01:17:38.230 --> 01:17:39.979 JACK: And sovereign immunity. 01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:43.639 See, qualified immunity means you can't 01:17:43.639 --> 01:17:45.840 sue government workers, especially 01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:47.809 judges, prosecutors, and cops. 01:17:48.169 --> 01:17:51.019 They're shielded by the government itself. 01:17:51.770 --> 01:17:54.660 So, they can't sue the actual people who 01:17:54.700 --> 01:17:57.590 did them wrong, who made these mistakes. 01:17:58.180 --> 01:18:00.060 Then there’s sovereign immunity, which 01:18:00.060 --> 01:18:02.380 means you can't sue the government 01:18:02.709 --> 01:18:04.690 unless the government agrees to be sued. 01:18:05.110 --> 01:18:06.619 GABBY: Well, we tried to go after 01:18:06.619 --> 01:18:11.069 the state, and it’s very convoluted 01:18:11.070 --> 01:18:15.030 because the state is the one that 01:18:15.650 --> 01:18:17.259 passes judgment on whether or 01:18:17.260 --> 01:18:19.999 not the state is guilty or not. 01:18:20.529 --> 01:18:21.720 So, it’s like somebody coming to 01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:24.689 you and saying, we're gonna sue you. 01:18:24.919 --> 01:18:25.759 Are you guilty? 01:18:25.919 --> 01:18:26.749 You're like, of course I’m not. 01:18:26.750 --> 01:18:27.679 They're like, oh, sorry, can't 01:18:27.679 --> 01:18:28.749 sue you now because you said 01:18:28.749 --> 01:18:30.270 I’m — I said I’m not guilty. 01:18:30.549 --> 01:18:32.969 So, the state immediately threw it out. 01:18:33.139 --> 01:18:34.169 JACK: They tried to make this a 01:18:34.180 --> 01:18:35.839 federal case to sue the state. 01:18:35.839 --> 01:18:37.109 Since the state wouldn't pick it 01:18:37.110 --> 01:18:38.320 up, maybe the federal government 01:18:38.320 --> 01:18:39.789 could oversee it and decide. 01:18:40.259 --> 01:18:41.949 It got picked up by a federal court, 01:18:42.299 --> 01:18:43.399 but then when they looked at it, 01:18:43.400 --> 01:18:44.619 they just kicked it back down to the 01:18:44.619 --> 01:18:46.709 state, who just closed it right away. 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:48.849 GABBY: So, it’s just like, they tried so 01:18:48.860 --> 01:18:51.600 hard to stack the deck against us at the 01:18:51.970 --> 01:18:54.579 — at every single turn just to make it where 01:18:56.759 --> 01:18:59.059 it was not going to be or didn't 01:18:59.059 --> 01:19:01.059 feel like it was impartial at 01:19:01.099 --> 01:19:02.579 all through the entire process. 01:19:02.579 --> 01:19:04.669 Like, every step they could take to 01:19:04.669 --> 01:19:05.879 stack the deck in their favor, they 01:19:05.949 --> 01:19:08.070 absolutely tried to do and absolutely did. 01:19:08.290 --> 01:19:09.579 JACK: So, this lawsuit they wanted 01:19:09.579 --> 01:19:12.049 to wage was dead in the water before 01:19:12.049 --> 01:19:14.460 it even got a chance to begin, which 01:19:14.460 --> 01:19:15.999 is really frustrating because what 01:19:16.009 --> 01:19:18.380 mechanism can you even use here to 01:19:18.380 --> 01:19:20.690 bring justice to a situation like this? 01:19:21.259 --> 01:19:22.199 GABBY: So, we were left with 01:19:22.250 --> 01:19:24.899 the county and the sheriff. 01:19:25.529 --> 01:19:27.640 So, even though the sheriff has 01:19:27.660 --> 01:19:30.699 qualified immunity — or the prosecutor 01:19:30.699 --> 01:19:31.764 is the one; the prosecutor is the 01:19:31.764 --> 01:19:32.570 one that has qualified immunity. 01:19:32.839 --> 01:19:33.939 The sheriff has some 01:19:33.940 --> 01:19:35.669 protections, but not complete. 01:19:36.429 --> 01:19:37.880 So, we had to go through the process 01:19:37.910 --> 01:19:39.890 of saying, these are all the things 01:19:39.890 --> 01:19:41.320 that we think he did wrong, and then 01:19:41.320 --> 01:19:43.729 the judge said, yes, yes, no, no, no. 01:19:43.970 --> 01:19:45.369 Then we eventually are left with what 01:19:45.369 --> 01:19:47.149 the lawsuit ended up — and so, they said 01:19:47.149 --> 01:19:48.739 there is enough evidence to show that 01:19:48.739 --> 01:19:50.409 the sheriff did do these things wrong. 01:19:50.709 --> 01:19:52.030 So, we were able to go after the 01:19:52.030 --> 01:19:55.449 sheriff, but we went after the sheriff’s 01:19:55.589 --> 01:19:59.019 position, not Chad Leonard the person. 01:19:59.319 --> 01:20:00.759 So, we had to go after the actual sheriff, 01:20:00.759 --> 01:20:02.969 which means he’s also covered by the 01:20:02.970 --> 01:20:06.499 county’s insurance policy, and nothing, 01:20:06.819 --> 01:20:08.560 not one cent comes out of his pocket. 01:20:08.570 --> 01:20:10.420 He doesn't get reprimand — like, nothing, 01:20:10.660 --> 01:20:11.780 absolutely nothing happens to him. 01:20:11.780 --> 01:20:13.820 It’s a moral victory at best. 01:20:14.360 --> 01:20:15.669 JACK: Okay, so they started a 01:20:15.670 --> 01:20:17.429 single lawsuit that got accepted 01:20:17.429 --> 01:20:19.219 in the courts against the county 01:20:19.360 --> 01:20:20.700 and the sheriff’s position. 01:20:21.070 --> 01:20:22.589 Finally this thing was starting to 01:20:22.590 --> 01:20:24.889 get some traction, and this felt like 01:20:24.889 --> 01:20:26.849 progress since Justin and Gabby really 01:20:26.850 --> 01:20:28.690 wanted to use the system to seek 01:20:28.719 --> 01:20:30.159 justice of everything that went wrong. 01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:31.709 [To guests] Now, my question is, what 01:20:31.709 --> 01:20:33.299 were you hoping to get out of the lawsuit? 01:20:33.349 --> 01:20:34.190 GABBY: One dollar. 01:20:34.379 --> 01:20:35.369 JACK: One dollar? 01:20:35.389 --> 01:20:36.349 GABBY: That was all I cared about. 01:20:36.499 --> 01:20:38.599 I told… I was like, as long as I can 01:20:38.610 --> 01:20:40.659 drag this dude through the mud like he 01:20:40.660 --> 01:20:42.350 did with us except with facts instead 01:20:42.350 --> 01:20:44.889 of stories, that’s all I care about, 01:20:44.899 --> 01:20:46.619 which is — the entire time, which is 01:20:46.619 --> 01:20:48.110 why we were like — they were like, you 01:20:48.110 --> 01:20:51.360 should just take the trespassing charge, 01:20:51.360 --> 01:20:54.100 and — nope, nope, nope, the entire time. 01:20:54.570 --> 01:20:58.069 My entire goal was just to show that this 01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:01.399 — show this person for who he really was, 01:21:01.399 --> 01:21:03.379 which is just a lying, corrupt individual. 01:21:04.599 --> 01:21:06.949 JACK: Dang, this is getting pretty good. 01:21:06.949 --> 01:21:09.300 They got a lawyer who’s all in, retired, 01:21:09.410 --> 01:21:11.069 working for free, doesn't care about 01:21:11.070 --> 01:21:12.769 what people think of him anymore, and 01:21:12.769 --> 01:21:14.780 Gabby’s just coming out with claws out. 01:21:15.070 --> 01:21:16.619 This is gonna be a good fight. 01:21:17.099 --> 01:21:18.170 They eventually decided to 01:21:18.180 --> 01:21:19.389 ask for more than a dollar. 01:21:19.389 --> 01:21:20.809 They wanted this to hurt, and they 01:21:20.809 --> 01:21:22.409 also wanted to cause panic and fear 01:21:22.409 --> 01:21:24.179 within the county, and they also wanted 01:21:24.180 --> 01:21:26.539 the townspeople to see what happens 01:21:26.540 --> 01:21:28.789 when you elect a corrupt sheriff. 01:21:29.479 --> 01:21:30.559 JUSTIN: We submitted the maximum 01:21:30.559 --> 01:21:32.119 amount that the insurance company 01:21:32.129 --> 01:21:33.339 would have covered for the county. 01:21:33.339 --> 01:21:34.509 So, we didn’t want taxpayers 01:21:34.939 --> 01:21:36.039 having to front more money for 01:21:36.040 --> 01:21:37.840 having a poorly-elected sheriff. 01:21:38.500 --> 01:21:39.090 So, yeah, that’s the 01:21:39.419 --> 01:21:40.519 dollar amount that we set. 01:21:40.519 --> 01:21:41.604 I think the other part of it, too, 01:21:41.604 --> 01:21:42.799 that’s really important, what we 01:21:42.799 --> 01:21:44.659 wanted out of the case was to set 01:21:44.659 --> 01:21:45.880 new precedent, that this isn't okay. 01:21:46.299 --> 01:21:48.179 You can't put hackers in jail and 01:21:48.180 --> 01:21:49.300 try to prosecute them when you 01:21:49.309 --> 01:21:50.589 hired them to help defend you. 01:21:51.040 --> 01:21:52.440 JACK: So, they were now seeking quite 01:21:52.440 --> 01:21:53.999 a bit of money from this lawsuit. 01:21:54.409 --> 01:21:55.389 I’m not sure exactly how 01:21:55.389 --> 01:21:56.210 much; they wouldn't tell me. 01:21:56.599 --> 01:21:57.529 My guess is that they 01:21:57.529 --> 01:21:59.619 wanted to split $1 million. 01:21:59.619 --> 01:22:02.690 Keep in mind, they already paid $50,000 01:22:02.690 --> 01:22:04.309 each just to get out on bail, and then 01:22:04.309 --> 01:22:05.716 they spent the night in jail, and they 01:22:05.716 --> 01:22:06.670 were threatened with seven years of 01:22:06.670 --> 01:22:08.370 prison that — they had to fight tooth 01:22:08.370 --> 01:22:10.110 and nail to get that charge dropped. 01:22:10.549 --> 01:22:11.690 Those lawyer fees added 01:22:11.699 --> 01:22:12.559 up, too, of course. 01:22:12.930 --> 01:22:15.059 That’s a lot of stress, real costs, and 01:22:15.059 --> 01:22:16.469 anguish that they had to go through. 01:22:16.889 --> 01:22:18.540 So, to split $1 million, I think 01:22:18.550 --> 01:22:20.289 that sounds reasonable for the 01:22:20.289 --> 01:22:21.569 amount of hardship they endured. 01:22:22.250 --> 01:22:23.719 But Gabby was still furious 01:22:23.729 --> 01:22:24.709 from this whole ordeal. 01:22:25.029 --> 01:22:25.499 GABBY: Like World War II, 01:22:26.110 --> 01:22:27.160 the — what’s the saying? 01:22:27.229 --> 01:22:28.579 They woke the sleeping giant. 01:22:28.989 --> 01:22:30.349 Japan thought if they came in and they 01:22:30.349 --> 01:22:32.640 smashed us that we would back off and 01:22:32.649 --> 01:22:35.050 just slink away and not do anything. 01:22:35.449 --> 01:22:37.399 Kinda the same thing here where, oh, 01:22:37.410 --> 01:22:38.820 if we just throw our weight around and 01:22:39.209 --> 01:22:40.940 we threaten these guys with six years 01:22:41.580 --> 01:22:43.139 in prison and all this other stuff, 01:22:43.139 --> 01:22:44.319 they’ll just take the deal and they’ll 01:22:44.319 --> 01:22:46.750 go away, and that was not the case. 01:22:47.209 --> 01:22:48.179 We don't fuck up. 01:22:48.539 --> 01:22:50.239 Justin and I, we do things by 01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:51.490 the letter, by the contract. 01:22:51.699 --> 01:22:53.849 Everything we do is meticulously perfect 01:22:54.080 --> 01:22:55.919 for that reason, because of what we do. 01:22:55.919 --> 01:22:57.179 We don't want to mess up. 01:22:57.800 --> 01:22:59.939 I think all that — this whole thing just 01:23:00.300 --> 01:23:02.199 showed that and highlighted it, because 01:23:02.199 --> 01:23:03.659 if we had done something wrong, they would 01:23:03.659 --> 01:23:05.640 have found it, and they were unable to. 01:23:05.640 --> 01:23:08.250 So now, five years later, the tables 01:23:08.250 --> 01:23:10.269 had turned, and we had all the evidence. 01:23:10.270 --> 01:23:11.270 We had all the data. 01:23:11.270 --> 01:23:13.639 We had the video cameras and we had 01:23:13.639 --> 01:23:15.270 the recordings and we had everything. 01:23:15.270 --> 01:23:16.280 [Music] Then it was the exact 01:23:16.500 --> 01:23:18.450 opposite, where the county and the 01:23:18.450 --> 01:23:20.409 state was like, oh shit, they've 01:23:20.410 --> 01:23:22.219 got everything and we literally have 01:23:22.219 --> 01:23:23.929 nothing except a really, really bad 01:23:23.930 --> 01:23:26.479 arrest from a corrupt individual. 01:23:28.309 --> 01:23:30.400 JACK: Together they had collected tons of 01:23:30.439 --> 01:23:32.890 evidence supporting their case, and they 01:23:32.890 --> 01:23:34.879 were feeding it to the court, and the 01:23:34.879 --> 01:23:36.680 county was starting to sweat a little. 01:23:37.660 --> 01:23:39.689 Despite how confident Gabby felt that they 01:23:39.689 --> 01:23:42.520 would win this case, it’s still a scary 01:23:42.520 --> 01:23:45.449 thing to go up against the government. 01:23:45.459 --> 01:23:47.200 I mean, they could drag this case 01:23:47.200 --> 01:23:50.290 on for years and exhaust you and 01:23:50.290 --> 01:23:52.149 run you dry of money and energy, 01:23:52.520 --> 01:23:54.389 only to ultimately drop the case or 01:23:54.389 --> 01:23:56.170 reject it due to some clerical error, 01:23:56.529 --> 01:23:58.639 making the entire process pointless. 01:23:58.649 --> 01:24:00.320 Years of your life can be wasted 01:24:00.329 --> 01:24:01.820 in a process like this, and the 01:24:01.820 --> 01:24:02.869 government just doesn't care. 01:24:03.000 --> 01:24:04.279 They do these kind of things 01:24:04.449 --> 01:24:05.840 fairly regularly, too. 01:24:06.169 --> 01:24:09.099 They use the process as the punishment. 01:24:09.650 --> 01:24:11.609 The stress of courts and judges and 01:24:11.610 --> 01:24:13.809 charges weighs heavy on a person, 01:24:13.809 --> 01:24:16.409 like really heavy, and they know that. 01:24:16.570 --> 01:24:18.730 So, even though they knew they probably 01:24:18.730 --> 01:24:20.260 couldn’t even win that original criminal 01:24:20.260 --> 01:24:22.029 case against them, they still wanted to 01:24:22.029 --> 01:24:24.610 use those charges as a form of punishment. 01:24:24.970 --> 01:24:27.049 So, fighting back at the government like 01:24:27.049 --> 01:24:30.150 this is the story of David and Goliath. 01:24:30.369 --> 01:24:32.200 Not only were these two penetration 01:24:32.200 --> 01:24:34.359 testers the first ever to be wrongfully 01:24:34.360 --> 01:24:36.170 arrested for penetration testing, 01:24:36.570 --> 01:24:38.320 but they're also the first two to 01:24:38.320 --> 01:24:40.240 ever sue the government to protect 01:24:40.250 --> 01:24:42.670 their rights as penetration testers. 01:24:43.259 --> 01:24:44.830 This is an epic story. 01:24:44.839 --> 01:24:47.370 This case could set a precedent. 01:24:48.659 --> 01:24:49.450 JUSTIN: It was just the 01:24:49.450 --> 01:24:50.500 right thing to do, I think. 01:24:50.500 --> 01:24:51.979 We didn't have a choice, I mean, to 01:24:52.059 --> 01:24:53.710 have our counter-sue back at them. 01:24:53.710 --> 01:24:55.200 It was the only way to try to 01:24:55.200 --> 01:24:56.769 restore any sliver of justice 01:24:57.209 --> 01:24:58.779 around our case and that state. 01:24:58.790 --> 01:25:01.160 So, in our minds, it didn't even cross it. 01:25:01.169 --> 01:25:03.019 Just a no-brainer; had to sue back. 01:25:03.949 --> 01:25:05.649 But the funny — like David and 01:25:05.649 --> 01:25:07.169 Goliath, I think that’s hackers, right? 01:25:07.169 --> 01:25:08.870 It’s like the power that one individual 01:25:08.870 --> 01:25:10.099 can hold is why governments can 01:25:10.099 --> 01:25:11.770 be so scared of these individuals. 01:25:12.270 --> 01:25:14.160 You can do a lot even as a single person. 01:25:14.160 --> 01:25:15.989 So, against the government, it is 01:25:15.989 --> 01:25:18.309 a mighty entity, but still, again, 01:25:18.309 --> 01:25:19.839 that’s kinda for our lawyer to handle. 01:25:19.899 --> 01:25:20.519 GABBY: It’s all about the 01:25:20.520 --> 01:25:22.479 information, and we have all of it. 01:25:22.779 --> 01:25:25.479 JACK: He felt like he had no choice 01:25:25.979 --> 01:25:27.459 and that was the right thing to do. 01:25:28.039 --> 01:25:29.659 Wow, those are some powerful words. 01:25:30.220 --> 01:25:32.329 This is what patriotism looks like in 01:25:32.360 --> 01:25:34.910 practice, to put the government in check 01:25:35.289 --> 01:25:37.490 when it overreaches and force it back. 01:25:38.050 --> 01:25:39.880 So, how does the county react to this? 01:25:40.349 --> 01:25:41.889 Of course they delay it. 01:25:42.089 --> 01:25:43.539 Their original court date was supposed 01:25:43.539 --> 01:25:46.200 to be in 2020, but that got delayed, 01:25:46.399 --> 01:25:49.100 cancelled, pushed back again and again. 01:25:49.389 --> 01:25:51.000 The county tried to distance themselves 01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:52.659 from this in every way possible. 01:25:52.849 --> 01:25:54.609 They tried to slither out of it, hoping 01:25:54.610 --> 01:25:57.149 that Justin and Gabby would grow tired 01:25:57.169 --> 01:25:58.999 or forget about this or just give up. 01:25:59.250 --> 01:26:00.349 GABBY: The further they could get away 01:26:00.349 --> 01:26:02.449 from the moment, the better for them, 01:26:02.470 --> 01:26:03.940 because they wanted it to fall out. 01:26:03.980 --> 01:26:04.660 They didn't want people 01:26:04.660 --> 01:26:05.969 to bring it back up. 01:26:06.570 --> 01:26:07.570 JACK: So, year one goes by. 01:26:07.660 --> 01:26:08.759 Very little happens. 01:26:08.790 --> 01:26:09.740 Basically, they spent the whole 01:26:09.740 --> 01:26:11.040 year just opening the case. 01:26:11.410 --> 01:26:12.750 Year two goes by. 01:26:12.990 --> 01:26:14.110 Nothing happens at all. 01:26:14.110 --> 01:26:16.330 Year three, they just keep delaying 01:26:16.340 --> 01:26:17.629 things, keep pushing it back, 01:26:17.639 --> 01:26:18.739 and this is really starting to 01:26:19.070 --> 01:26:20.630 test Justin and Gabby’s patience. 01:26:20.630 --> 01:26:22.269 Like, come on, we’ve presented 01:26:22.270 --> 01:26:23.089 all the evidence to you. 01:26:23.090 --> 01:26:24.240 Why are you not looking at this 01:26:24.250 --> 01:26:25.509 case and trying to get it closed? 01:26:26.049 --> 01:26:27.400 Also, at some point during all 01:26:27.400 --> 01:26:29.679 that, Chad Leonard, the sheriff 01:26:29.709 --> 01:26:31.989 that they were upset with, retired 01:26:32.160 --> 01:26:33.829 and moved out of state entirely. 01:26:34.340 --> 01:26:36.319 So, whatever outcome this lawsuit’s 01:26:36.320 --> 01:26:37.810 gonna have, it’s not gonna bother him 01:26:37.810 --> 01:26:40.049 at all because he’s just relaxing in 01:26:40.049 --> 01:26:41.970 some Florida community somewhere now. 01:26:42.820 --> 01:26:43.950 But their lawsuit was with the 01:26:43.950 --> 01:26:45.500 sheriff’s position, not the sheriff 01:26:45.500 --> 01:26:47.139 himself, so the case continued. 01:26:47.719 --> 01:26:49.589 Around this time, too, Justin 01:26:49.590 --> 01:26:50.859 and Gabby’s relationship with 01:26:50.889 --> 01:26:52.610 Coalfire started to sour. 01:26:53.079 --> 01:26:54.169 They didn't feel like they were getting 01:26:54.250 --> 01:26:55.979 paid enough or treated right by them. 01:26:56.259 --> 01:26:57.830 GABBY: The first year after we got 01:26:57.860 --> 01:27:01.589 arrested, we had over $5 million 01:27:02.009 --> 01:27:03.389 come in directly of people saying, 01:27:03.389 --> 01:27:04.979 hey, we want to work with Gary and 01:27:05.059 --> 01:27:06.260 Justin, and we want to work with 01:27:06.269 --> 01:27:07.700 the Iowa team, and blah, blah, blah. 01:27:07.700 --> 01:27:07.910 JUSTIN: I think. 01:27:07.910 --> 01:27:08.669 GABBY: We don't care. 01:27:08.779 --> 01:27:10.070 JUSTIN: Our story was one of the most 01:27:10.070 --> 01:27:11.959 valuable things that happened to Coalfire. 01:27:12.150 --> 01:27:13.369 Even the CEO recognized, yeah, 01:27:13.809 --> 01:27:15.410 the number-one reason Coalfire 01:27:15.419 --> 01:27:16.969 is known is because of this case. 01:27:16.969 --> 01:27:19.299 It is funny; if we ever talk to anybody 01:27:19.299 --> 01:27:21.019 and we mention, oh, we work at Coalfire 01:27:21.209 --> 01:27:22.460 — like, oh man, you ever hear that crazy 01:27:22.460 --> 01:27:23.729 story of those guys that got arrested? 01:27:23.729 --> 01:27:25.019 I’m like, no, tell me about that. 01:27:25.470 --> 01:27:27.320 JACK: Gabby quit her job at Coalfire 01:27:27.349 --> 01:27:29.139 and went to apply at other places. 01:27:29.139 --> 01:27:30.680 [To guests] I didn't quite 01:27:30.680 --> 01:27:32.440 get the full picture. 01:27:32.459 --> 01:27:33.740 Is Coalfire good or bad? 01:27:35.079 --> 01:27:36.229 GABBY: Individuals at 01:27:36.229 --> 01:27:38.640 Coalfire are very bad. 01:27:39.040 --> 01:27:41.289 I think Coalfire as an entity 01:27:41.290 --> 01:27:43.199 during that time was good. 01:27:44.019 --> 01:27:45.269 JACK: She was able to quickly get 01:27:45.279 --> 01:27:47.029 interviews at other places, but even 01:27:47.029 --> 01:27:49.349 though she was the best for her job and 01:27:49.349 --> 01:27:51.179 the most qualified, her reputation from 01:27:51.180 --> 01:27:53.849 this case alone made people turn her down. 01:27:54.049 --> 01:27:56.069 She had a hard time finding another 01:27:56.079 --> 01:27:58.320 penetration-testing job because of 01:27:58.320 --> 01:28:00.010 this story with the Iowa courthouse. 01:28:00.349 --> 01:28:02.009 She took six months off just 01:28:02.009 --> 01:28:03.620 to clear her head and relax. 01:28:03.849 --> 01:28:04.869 GABBY: Like, really started to come 01:28:04.869 --> 01:28:06.639 into question; like, damn, am I 01:28:06.639 --> 01:28:07.659 even gonna be able to keep doing 01:28:07.659 --> 01:28:09.049 this because of what happened? 01:28:10.179 --> 01:28:10.859 JUSTIN: Great opportunity to 01:28:10.860 --> 01:28:11.820 start your own business, then, 01:28:11.970 --> 01:28:12.644 and do it on your own terms. 01:28:12.644 --> 01:28:12.699 GABBY: Right? 01:28:12.699 --> 01:28:13.059 Yeah. 01:28:13.129 --> 01:28:13.469 JUSTIN: Yeah. 01:28:13.610 --> 01:28:14.409 GABBY: Justin and I had actually 01:28:14.410 --> 01:28:16.619 talked about it multiple times in 01:28:16.619 --> 01:28:18.089 the past about starting something 01:28:18.089 --> 01:28:19.170 different and doing things a little 01:28:19.170 --> 01:28:21.199 bit differently and treating… 01:28:21.209 --> 01:28:22.259 JACK: Starting something new yourself. 01:28:22.399 --> 01:28:24.400 GABBY: Yeah, and just building a 01:28:24.400 --> 01:28:26.799 company that treats people the way 01:28:26.800 --> 01:28:28.449 that we thought they should be treated. 01:28:28.500 --> 01:28:30.450 We had a vision of — we wanted to 01:28:30.450 --> 01:28:31.469 do things a little bit differently, 01:28:31.470 --> 01:28:34.319 and so, we did that with Kaiju. 01:28:34.319 --> 01:28:36.819 JACK: Thus, Kaiju Security was born, 01:28:37.239 --> 01:28:38.989 a fresh, new penetration-testing 01:28:38.989 --> 01:28:40.809 company based near Seattle, Washington. 01:28:41.050 --> 01:28:42.240 GABBY: Adversarial simulation 01:28:42.250 --> 01:28:42.949 offensive security. 01:28:43.199 --> 01:28:44.449 JACK: Gabby started it with another guy 01:28:44.449 --> 01:28:46.319 named Marcus, and Justin moved on to 01:28:46.319 --> 01:28:47.830 the team shortly after it was formed. 01:28:48.429 --> 01:28:49.739 After getting this new company 01:28:49.739 --> 01:28:51.859 started up, the lawsuit was finally 01:28:51.860 --> 01:28:54.249 making some movement in year five. 01:28:54.509 --> 01:28:54.979 JUSTIN: Yeah, recently in 01:28:54.979 --> 01:28:58.149 2025 it was about showtime. 01:28:58.149 --> 01:28:59.830 So, then we started getting hot and 01:28:59.830 --> 01:29:01.660 heavy with it, doing depositions, 01:29:02.190 --> 01:29:03.390 getting things on record, 01:29:03.420 --> 01:29:04.809 getting prep for the trial case. 01:29:04.810 --> 01:29:06.330 So, we were definitely shaping 01:29:06.330 --> 01:29:07.890 up — yeah, go show up in court. 01:29:08.480 --> 01:29:10.149 Again, going back to the hacker community, 01:29:10.540 --> 01:29:11.770 we had some great people like Deviant, 01:29:12.480 --> 01:29:14.780 Andrew Porter, that agreed to testify 01:29:15.099 --> 01:29:17.370 in our case just as expert witnesses. 01:29:17.379 --> 01:29:18.689 So, yeah, we're going through. 01:29:19.070 --> 01:29:20.140 We really thought we were 01:29:20.340 --> 01:29:21.190 gonna end up in court. 01:29:22.119 --> 01:29:23.560 We started getting presented with 01:29:23.580 --> 01:29:25.910 options to settle pretty quickly. 01:29:26.109 --> 01:29:27.030 I mean, they wait to the last 01:29:27.030 --> 01:29:28.170 minute with everything like that. 01:29:29.190 --> 01:29:30.680 They were throwing out low-ball numbers. 01:29:30.680 --> 01:29:32.820 I think they had like — just about 01:29:32.820 --> 01:29:34.989 like our bond or bail is what they 01:29:34.989 --> 01:29:36.579 first wanted to offer, like $50k. 01:29:36.609 --> 01:29:36.959 GABBY: Yeah, $50,000. 01:29:36.959 --> 01:29:38.189 JACK: Okay, so, the county didn't want to 01:29:38.189 --> 01:29:40.319 go to trial and did want to settle this, 01:29:40.320 --> 01:29:44.660 but their offer was for $50,000 each, the 01:29:44.660 --> 01:29:47.889 amount that they paid to get out on bail. 01:29:47.889 --> 01:29:50.419 $50,000 each, that doesn't even 01:29:50.419 --> 01:29:51.819 cover their lawyer fees that they 01:29:51.820 --> 01:29:53.159 spent trying to clear their names. 01:29:53.360 --> 01:29:54.690 What an insult. 01:29:55.110 --> 01:29:56.249 So, no, of course they 01:29:56.250 --> 01:29:58.089 didn't take $50,000 each. 01:29:58.289 --> 01:29:59.069 They needed more. 01:29:59.439 --> 01:30:00.289 GABBY: So, we ended up going through 01:30:00.289 --> 01:30:01.669 arbitration where they take a 01:30:01.680 --> 01:30:04.079 former judge and — goes back and 01:30:04.080 --> 01:30:05.889 forth and tries to settle the case. 01:30:06.189 --> 01:30:07.159 But at that time they were still 01:30:07.159 --> 01:30:08.839 being super, super, super stingy. 01:30:08.849 --> 01:30:10.160 They were like, oh, we’ll give them fifty. 01:30:10.540 --> 01:30:15.019 Then so, the judge, TLDR — the judge 01:30:15.040 --> 01:30:16.400 comes by to us, and through the 01:30:16.400 --> 01:30:18.489 entire process — it took all day 01:30:18.489 --> 01:30:21.779 long — comes to us and goes, I don't 01:30:21.790 --> 01:30:23.049 think in my entire career I’ve ever 01:30:23.049 --> 01:30:25.700 seen a case so clear cut as this. 01:30:26.110 --> 01:30:27.559 This isn't a matter of if you win. 01:30:27.570 --> 01:30:28.189 This is a matter of how 01:30:28.189 --> 01:30:29.169 much money you're gonna get. 01:30:29.579 --> 01:30:31.069 So, I’m gonna go back and I’m gonna beat 01:30:31.070 --> 01:30:33.179 these guys up pretty good, and he leaves. 01:30:33.809 --> 01:30:35.979 Marty looks at us and is like, I’ve 01:30:35.979 --> 01:30:37.949 been doing this for fifty years or 01:30:37.949 --> 01:30:39.379 something like that, or forty-two 01:30:39.379 --> 01:30:40.990 years, and he’s like, I have never 01:30:40.990 --> 01:30:42.370 heard an arbitrator say that ever. 01:30:42.570 --> 01:30:44.429 I’ve never — not only had he never heard 01:30:44.430 --> 01:30:46.590 it; he’d never heard of anyone else 01:30:46.590 --> 01:30:48.779 saying that an arbitrator had said that. 01:30:48.790 --> 01:30:51.050 So, that was the point, I think, 01:30:51.050 --> 01:30:52.619 that our confidence started to go 01:30:52.629 --> 01:30:56.089 like this, 'cause he had seen all of 01:30:56.119 --> 01:30:59.850 our — everything that we had, and he 01:30:59.850 --> 01:31:01.489 was just like, yeah, no, this isn't — I 01:31:01.489 --> 01:31:02.849 don't think this is up for debate. 01:31:02.969 --> 01:31:03.709 JACK: But even with that, 01:31:03.779 --> 01:31:05.049 the county stayed silent. 01:31:05.669 --> 01:31:07.829 Instead, they set a trial date, 01:31:07.989 --> 01:31:09.699 which was three months away, 01:31:09.750 --> 01:31:12.389 again making them wait more. 01:31:13.129 --> 01:31:14.759 So, they prepared for trial. 01:31:14.879 --> 01:31:17.209 They spent an enormous amount of time 01:31:17.209 --> 01:31:19.099 and energy to gather their materials, 01:31:19.129 --> 01:31:22.099 find bodycam footage, get testimonies and 01:31:22.110 --> 01:31:24.929 depositions and bring in expert witnesses. 01:31:25.169 --> 01:31:27.180 They even took time off work to 01:31:27.190 --> 01:31:29.019 go attend this trial, and they 01:31:29.069 --> 01:31:30.530 booked their flights and their 01:31:30.530 --> 01:31:31.989 tickets, and they were ready to go. 01:31:32.410 --> 01:31:33.729 Let me just emphasize what the 01:31:33.759 --> 01:31:35.229 odds are in this situation. 01:31:35.569 --> 01:31:38.539 Over 95% of wrongful arrest lawsuits are 01:31:38.539 --> 01:31:40.739 thrown out due to qualified immunity. 01:31:41.089 --> 01:31:42.379 Of the few that make it through, 01:31:42.660 --> 01:31:45.069 95% of those usually get closed 01:31:45.360 --> 01:31:47.060 with a zero-dollar settlement, 01:31:47.309 --> 01:31:48.749 or the government wins at trial. 01:31:49.190 --> 01:31:51.749 For them to receive more than $50,000 01:31:51.789 --> 01:31:53.629 from this lawsuit is about the 01:31:53.629 --> 01:31:55.579 same odds as hitting the lottery. 01:31:56.029 --> 01:31:57.499 It’s extremely rare to sue the 01:31:57.500 --> 01:31:59.010 government over wrongful arrest and 01:31:59.010 --> 01:32:00.700 win a substantial amount of money. 01:32:00.700 --> 01:32:02.269 Usually in those situations, it’s 01:32:02.270 --> 01:32:04.019 because the person was in jail for weeks 01:32:04.220 --> 01:32:06.300 or months under the wrongful arrest. 01:32:06.370 --> 01:32:07.940 So, it’s even more rare for someone 01:32:07.940 --> 01:32:09.780 to spend just one night in jail 01:32:09.780 --> 01:32:12.209 and get a large settlement offer. 01:32:12.450 --> 01:32:14.190 In those situations, you would have to 01:32:14.190 --> 01:32:16.280 prove without a doubt the government 01:32:16.309 --> 01:32:20.050 conducted an egregious violation, which is 01:32:20.050 --> 01:32:22.360 what Justin and Gabby was saying happened. 01:32:22.670 --> 01:32:24.870 [Music] But then a few days before 01:32:24.870 --> 01:32:26.440 the trial was due to begin, in 01:32:26.469 --> 01:32:30.369 February 2026, they got a new 01:32:30.590 --> 01:32:32.639 settlement offer from the county. 01:32:34.509 --> 01:32:38.700 The county was offering them $600,000 01:32:38.759 --> 01:32:41.619 total, $300,000 for each of them, 01:32:42.169 --> 01:32:44.299 and this was actually the lowest that 01:32:44.299 --> 01:32:46.279 they would accept, so they took it. 01:32:46.930 --> 01:32:48.380 The lawsuit was closed. 01:32:48.389 --> 01:32:49.489 They got paid. 01:32:49.660 --> 01:32:50.499 They won. 01:32:51.289 --> 01:32:52.580 This allowed them to celebrate. 01:32:54.239 --> 01:32:55.149 JUSTIN: Still, I think the biggest 01:32:55.149 --> 01:32:57.259 one for the community is now we 01:32:57.259 --> 01:32:58.570 have better precedent, right? 01:32:58.579 --> 01:33:00.219 So, before, we were just arrested. 01:33:00.480 --> 01:33:02.599 Felony charges — okay, cops can just 01:33:02.599 --> 01:33:04.059 arrest pen testers doing their job and 01:33:04.059 --> 01:33:05.470 try to put them in prison for seven years. 01:33:06.330 --> 01:33:07.519 But now we can look back, and if 01:33:07.519 --> 01:33:09.050 that’s ever happening in real time 01:33:09.549 --> 01:33:11.230 to other testers out there — hey, 01:33:11.269 --> 01:33:12.380 sir, let’s just take this slow. 01:33:12.380 --> 01:33:13.040 Take your time. 01:33:13.049 --> 01:33:13.780 Fully cooperative. 01:33:13.799 --> 01:33:15.020 But if you want to research, this has 01:33:15.020 --> 01:33:16.389 happened before, and it’s probably 01:33:16.389 --> 01:33:18.359 not a good idea to try to prosecute 01:33:18.360 --> 01:33:19.829 or put me in jail for doing my job. 01:33:20.110 --> 01:33:21.129 Look what happens. 01:33:21.129 --> 01:33:22.219 Or the county could have 01:33:22.220 --> 01:33:23.969 to pay out or — yeah. 01:33:24.209 --> 01:33:25.529 So, really good to have the win 01:33:25.570 --> 01:33:27.099 under our belt for the community. 01:33:27.110 --> 01:33:27.849 GABBY: Everybody else, yeah. 01:33:28.250 --> 01:33:29.309 I’m obviously much more 01:33:29.309 --> 01:33:30.889 selfish than Justin is. 01:33:30.889 --> 01:33:32.730 JACK: Now, finally they can go 01:33:32.730 --> 01:33:34.309 back to their normal lives feeling 01:33:34.309 --> 01:33:36.620 like justice has been restored in 01:33:36.620 --> 01:33:38.369 the best way it possibly can be. 01:33:39.570 --> 01:33:40.790 Now they're focusing on building 01:33:40.799 --> 01:33:42.549 Kaiju Security all with a 01:33:42.549 --> 01:33:43.759 new feather in their cap. 01:33:44.049 --> 01:33:45.559 JUSTIN: I love saying that, too, 'cause 01:33:45.559 --> 01:33:47.119 I fought the law and the law won. 01:33:47.129 --> 01:33:49.319 No, man, the law fought us and we won. 01:33:53.959 --> 01:33:54.009 JACK: [Outro 01:33:59.709 --> 01:34:01.209 music] A big thank-you to Justin 01:34:01.209 --> 01:34:02.689 Wynn and Gabby DeMercurio for 01:34:02.689 --> 01:34:03.929 reaching out and finding the 01:34:03.939 --> 01:34:05.479 time to share this story with us. 01:34:05.549 --> 01:34:07.169 I really like these two, and I look 01:34:07.169 --> 01:34:08.430 forward to the next time I meet them. 01:34:09.250 --> 01:34:10.929 Hey, I just launched a new show. 01:34:10.949 --> 01:34:12.000 It’s called Low. 01:34:12.169 --> 01:34:13.620 It’s a five-part series. 01:34:13.789 --> 01:34:15.819 It’s the most crazy story I’ve ever 01:34:15.819 --> 01:34:18.399 heard, and right now it’s hidden within 01:34:18.399 --> 01:34:20.260 the Darknet Diaries premium feed. 01:34:20.260 --> 01:34:22.100 If you want to listen to it early, 01:34:22.379 --> 01:34:25.189 please go to plus.darknetdiaries.com. 01:34:25.629 --> 01:34:26.599 Otherwise you're gonna have to 01:34:26.599 --> 01:34:27.890 wait for the public release, 01:34:27.979 --> 01:34:29.179 which is coming later this month. 01:34:29.919 --> 01:34:32.359 This show is created by me, pony pie, 01:34:32.419 --> 01:34:34.409 Jack Rhysider, mixing by Proximity 01:34:34.410 --> 01:34:35.850 Sound, and our theme music is by 01:34:35.850 --> 01:34:37.379 the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. 01:34:38.669 --> 01:34:40.149 There’s an option in WhatsApp, 01:34:40.149 --> 01:34:41.709 and I can never figure out; is 01:34:41.709 --> 01:34:44.639 it mark as read or mark as read? 01:34:45.319 --> 01:34:46.659 This is Darknet Diaries.