WEBVTT 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.100 JACK: Okay, so, I’ve got a good story for you today, but when I was researching this 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:07.500 episode, I came across something that wasn’t exactly hacker-related but it captured my 00:00:07.500 --> 00:00:12.010 curiosity for a good thirty minutes, and maybe you’ll find this interesting, too. 00:00:12.010 --> 00:00:16.199 [MUSIC] So, apparently people in India like flying kites. 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:20.119 But when I think of flying kites, I think about doing it in a park or at some beach, 00:00:20.119 --> 00:00:21.550 some place wide open, right? 00:00:21.550 --> 00:00:25.080 Yeah, well, that’s not how kite-flying happens in India. 00:00:25.080 --> 00:00:30.269 They like to fly kites on their rooftops in populated parts of the city, like on the tops 00:00:30.269 --> 00:00:31.539 of low-rise apartments. 00:00:31.539 --> 00:00:35.590 You’ll sometimes even see them hanging over their balcony or flying the kite right out 00:00:35.590 --> 00:00:36.710 the window. 00:00:36.710 --> 00:00:40.260 I never even knew you could fly a kite out a window three stories up, but yeah, they’re 00:00:40.260 --> 00:00:42.559 doing it, and I saw videos of this on YouTube. 00:00:42.559 --> 00:00:47.510 So, on nice breezy days in India, you may look up and see some people on the rooftops 00:00:47.510 --> 00:00:50.730 flying kites right in the middle of a busy city. 00:00:50.730 --> 00:00:54.820 Anyway, kites alone aren’t that exciting to me, but here’s the part that surprised 00:00:54.820 --> 00:01:00.290 me; apparently there are kite-fighters among these people, and this gets wild. 00:01:00.290 --> 00:01:03.750 They take kite-flying to a whole new level, if you ask me. 00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:09.080 So, the idea here is to knock someone else’s kite out of the sky with your kite. 00:01:09.080 --> 00:01:12.770 So, if you’re on the rooftop and you see a kite flying a couple rooftops over from 00:01:12.770 --> 00:01:15.580 you, the mission is to knock theirs down. 00:01:15.580 --> 00:01:20.740 So, the first thing you have to do is to get your kite near theirs or at least near their 00:01:20.740 --> 00:01:24.780 string, and that takes a bit of skill to get your kite close to the person’s kite who’s 00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:26.290 like, three rooftops away from you. 00:01:26.290 --> 00:01:27.980 I don’t even understand how they do this. 00:01:27.980 --> 00:01:31.490 Like, how do you send your kite over to someone else’s when you can’t even move off your 00:01:31.490 --> 00:01:32.509 balcony? 00:01:32.509 --> 00:01:34.810 I thought the wind decided where your kite went. 00:01:34.810 --> 00:01:38.850 But apparently they’re able to let out the string more or weigh the kite down or something 00:01:38.850 --> 00:01:40.220 to get it to go where they want. 00:01:40.220 --> 00:01:44.670 Now, I’ve flown a kite too close to someone else’s kite before, and what happened to 00:01:44.670 --> 00:01:48.730 me is that the kites got tangled up and both of our kites crashed to the ground. 00:01:48.730 --> 00:01:53.000 But the kite-fighters don’t want their own kite crashing to the ground. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.020 They want to win this battle. 00:01:55.020 --> 00:02:03.070 So, what kite-fighters do is they coat their strings with something sharp to turn it into 00:02:03.070 --> 00:02:05.240 a skyward saw. 00:02:05.240 --> 00:02:11.230 Some use wax, but I think a lot of people are buying strings that are coated in little 00:02:11.230 --> 00:02:14.900 pieces of glass, making it sharp and scratchy. 00:02:14.900 --> 00:02:19.080 So, if you can get your string to touch theirs and then just at the right time give it a 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:25.310 quick tug, it’ll scrape your string across theirs and it may cut their kite string, sending 00:02:25.310 --> 00:02:31.310 their kite to float off freely and eventually crash to the ground, but like, a block away, 00:02:31.310 --> 00:02:34.950 leaving yours in the air as the victor of the battle. 00:02:34.950 --> 00:02:36.019 It’s wild. 00:02:36.019 --> 00:02:39.560 You could watch these videos where you see somebody taking out one kite after another 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:40.560 on rooftops. 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.670 I can’t tell if the other fliers like this or hate this. 00:02:44.670 --> 00:02:48.990 Because if you had a nine-year-old trying out a kite and their string gets slashed by 00:02:48.990 --> 00:02:53.800 some teenager looking for some sky fight, that kid’s gonna be crying. 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:58.629 But anyway, that’s kite-fighting, or locally in India it’s known as manja. 00:02:58.629 --> 00:03:02.280 You can buy sharpened manja strings in stores and online. 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.780 [MUSIC] But hold on; this gets even crazier. 00:03:04.780 --> 00:03:09.440 So, you have these razor-sharp kite strings flying around in the air, right, all from 00:03:09.440 --> 00:03:11.700 rooftops and residential areas. 00:03:11.700 --> 00:03:16.200 But these are in some busy areas with lots of street traffic, so motorcycles and cars 00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:18.280 are whizzing by down on the streets below. 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:24.220 So, what happens sometimes is when these losing kites crash into the ground, sometimes they 00:03:24.220 --> 00:03:27.530 get tangled in weird ways on its descent. 00:03:27.530 --> 00:03:31.680 The string may get snagged up on some tree branch or a sign or something, but then the 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.890 kite floats to the other side of the road and gets tangled on that side, essentially 00:03:36.890 --> 00:03:40.290 making a little tightrope that goes across the street. 00:03:40.290 --> 00:03:46.090 When someone drives by, the car can get snagged on it and pull the string in weird ways. 00:03:46.090 --> 00:03:51.299 Well, the real problem comes with motorcycles and bicycles. 00:03:51.299 --> 00:03:57.780 There have been a lot of incidents where the string gets caught around the neck of a motorcyclist 00:03:57.780 --> 00:03:59.290 and cuts their throat. 00:03:59.290 --> 00:04:06.010 Bad scratches, gashes, and cuts, but some have even died from getting their neck slit 00:04:06.010 --> 00:04:08.590 by glass-covered string. 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:12.800 Yeah, people have died from this kite-fighting stuff. 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:18.930 So, what motorcyclists do in the areas where it’s popular is to install a small bar on 00:04:18.930 --> 00:04:21.900 the front of the motorcycle to catch any of those strings. 00:04:21.900 --> 00:04:25.320 It kinda looks like a little antenna on the front of the motorcycle, and it’s there 00:04:25.320 --> 00:04:29.910 just to catch any kite-fighter strings from killing the rider. 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:36.200 It’s always interesting to me to see the downwind consequences of something that we 00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:39.820 didn’t immediately think would be a problem. 00:04:39.820 --> 00:04:48.259 (INTRO): [INTRO MUSIC] These are true stories from the dark side of the internet. 00:04:48.259 --> 00:04:52.850 I’m Jack Rhysider. 00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:56.730 This is Darknet Diaries. 00:04:56.730 --> 00:05:04.440 [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:13.139 JACK: Alright, I got an interesting story for you today, and let’s just jump right 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:14.139 into it. 00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:15.150 Here, listen to this phone call. 00:05:15.150 --> 00:05:16.560 RAJ: Uh-huh. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:17.970 “JAGGA”: [PUNJABI] 00:05:17.970 --> 00:05:19.380 RAJ: [PUNJABI] 00:05:19.380 --> 00:05:22.949 JACK: Okay, this phone call is in Punjabi language. 00:05:22.949 --> 00:05:23.949 It’s from India. 00:05:23.949 --> 00:05:28.490 But I really want you to hear this, so, one second. 00:05:28.490 --> 00:05:39.990 [AUDIO REWINDING, SLOWING DOWN] Okay, there; I’ve translated the audio and had it re-recorded 00:05:39.990 --> 00:05:40.990 in English. 00:05:40.990 --> 00:05:41.990 Now take a listen. 00:05:41.990 --> 00:05:43.130 RAJ: [PHONE RINGING] Hello? 00:05:43.130 --> 00:05:44.130 “JAGGA”: Hello, Raj. 00:05:44.130 --> 00:05:46.750 This is Jagga, your cousin, calling from Canada. 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:49.710 It’s been such a long time since we spoke. 00:05:49.710 --> 00:05:51.710 RAJ: Oh, Jagga, is that really you? 00:05:51.710 --> 00:05:52.710 You sound different. 00:05:52.710 --> 00:05:54.330 It has been a long time. 00:05:54.330 --> 00:05:57.690 “JAGGA”: Yes, yes, absolutely. 00:05:57.690 --> 00:05:58.979 How is the farm back home in Punjab? 00:05:58.979 --> 00:05:59.979 RAJ: Yeah, the farm is going well. 00:05:59.979 --> 00:06:04.270 We are at a dispute with Rajeeb but it’s finally over, and he paid me for plowing the 00:06:04.270 --> 00:06:05.270 fields near the canal. 00:06:05.270 --> 00:06:06.270 “JAGGA”: Oh, they finally sent you the money. 00:06:06.270 --> 00:06:07.270 God bless us today. 00:06:07.270 --> 00:06:08.270 How are you? 00:06:08.270 --> 00:06:09.270 RAJ: Yeah, I am doing well. 00:06:09.270 --> 00:06:10.470 “JAGGA”: Good, good. 00:06:10.470 --> 00:06:13.750 If you need something, anything, call me, brother. 00:06:13.750 --> 00:06:16.460 It won’t be a problem. 00:06:16.460 --> 00:06:20.410 RAJ: Yeah, thanks for letting me know. 00:06:20.410 --> 00:06:23.620 “JAGGA”: It’s been ages since we have spoken and you’ve always been like a brother 00:06:23.620 --> 00:06:28.050 to me, so I wanted to call you because I’ve got a problem. 00:06:28.050 --> 00:06:29.050 RAJ: Okay. 00:06:29.050 --> 00:06:34.060 “JAGGA”: First I wanted to call my family, but — and please don’t tell anyone. 00:06:34.060 --> 00:06:35.060 I’m gonna lose their respect if they find out. 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:36.060 RAJ: Absolutely. 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:38.060 Okay, okay. I understand. 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:39.750 “JAGGA”: Raj, you’re my cousin and the only person that I feel safe enough to tell, 00:06:39.750 --> 00:06:43.590 so please don’t tell anyone else. 00:06:43.590 --> 00:06:46.510 RAJ: Okay, okay. Yes. 00:06:46.510 --> 00:06:51.270 “JAGGA”: Don’t tell my dad or my brother. 00:06:51.270 --> 00:06:54.470 Have you seen them recently? 00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:57.250 RAJ: Yeah, I saw them last month. 00:06:57.250 --> 00:07:01.819 Your dad is doing well after his heart attack in November. 00:07:01.819 --> 00:07:03.539 “JAGGA”: Okay. 00:07:03.539 --> 00:07:12.850 So, last night I went out for a friend’s birthday party here in Canada. 00:07:12.850 --> 00:07:24.780 We went to a club, had some food and drinks, but my friends also started getting high. 00:07:24.780 --> 00:07:26.060 RAJ: Okay? 00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:40.150 “JAGGA”: I guess the combination of drugs and alcohol really got to one of my friends, 00:07:40.150 --> 00:08:03.610 because out of nowhere he took a bottle and smashed it onto the waiter’s head. 00:08:03.610 --> 00:08:05.020 Blood went everywhere. 00:08:05.020 --> 00:08:06.889 RAJ: Oh my god. 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:09.229 “JAGGA”: They called the police. 00:08:09.229 --> 00:08:21.410 My friends ran away but I didn’t run, and the police arrested me for the fight even 00:08:21.410 --> 00:08:24.360 though I’m innocent. 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:33.520 I have been charged for hitting the waiter. 00:08:33.520 --> 00:08:41.020 I have a lawyer from Punjab, though, who’s gonna help me get out. 00:08:41.020 --> 00:08:45.440 RAJ: Why didn’t you call your dad? 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.240 “JAGGA”: No, no, no. 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.050 I can’t call dad. 00:08:51.050 --> 00:08:54.560 He thinks I’m working hard. 00:08:54.560 --> 00:09:00.300 What would he think if I tell him I’ve been arrested? 00:09:00.300 --> 00:09:15.730 He’s already had a heart attack and I don’t want to risk causing another. 00:09:15.730 --> 00:09:42.120 Everything with the party happened last night, and as soon as I could, I called you. 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:57.810 I just need you to talk to the lawyer and say that you’re my 00:09:57.810 --> 00:09:58.810 cousin. 00:09:58.810 --> 00:10:08.550 RAJ: I still think your dad should know, but okay, what can I do? 00:10:08.550 --> 00:10:14.940 “JAGGA”: I’ll pass you over to my lawyer. 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:24.700 All you have to say is the boy is innocent. 00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:28.029 The boy has done nothing wrong. 00:10:28.029 --> 00:10:30.250 Please leave him be. 00:10:30.250 --> 00:10:42.770 My ATM card and my identity card, all the money from my wallet, it’s in custody. 00:10:42.770 --> 00:10:45.860 I can’t do anything. 00:10:45.860 --> 00:10:48.170 RAJ: Okay, okay. 00:10:48.170 --> 00:10:49.710 Let’s talk. 00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:52.010 “JAGGA”: Talk to my cousin. 00:10:52.010 --> 00:10:53.010 “LAWYER”1: Hello. 00:10:53.010 --> 00:10:54.010 RAJ: Hello. 00:10:54.010 --> 00:10:55.010 You’re the lawyer? 00:10:55.010 --> 00:10:56.010 “LAWYER”1: Yes. 00:10:56.010 --> 00:10:57.010 My name is Lakhwinder Simulaka. 00:10:57.010 --> 00:10:59.000 How are you related to the boy, sir? 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:00.970 RAJ: Yeah, yeah, he’s my cousin. 00:11:00.970 --> 00:11:02.470 “LAWYER”1: Right. 00:11:02.470 --> 00:11:05.860 I met with the officers on duty and I’ve spoken to them. 00:11:05.860 --> 00:11:07.671 Now, you tell me about the boy. 00:11:07.671 --> 00:11:09.540 Should he be punished or released? 00:11:09.540 --> 00:11:10.860 RAJ: Let him go. 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:11.860 He’s innocent. 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:15.250 “LAWYER”1: You know, foreign laws are very strict and very different to Punjabi 00:11:15.250 --> 00:11:16.250 laws. 00:11:16.250 --> 00:11:19.090 So that it’s clear, your cousin may be charged with being an accomplice in a murder case. 00:11:19.090 --> 00:11:21.630 The waiter is under intensive care in hospital. 00:11:21.630 --> 00:11:25.480 This is an extremely serious charge, one that will ruin your cousin’s life. 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:29.160 We will have to prove him innocent to save him. 00:11:29.160 --> 00:11:30.160 RAJ: Okay, sir. 00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:33.920 “LAWYER”1: I will have to say that those who are his friends are not his friends. 00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:38.140 He went alone to the club, drank only water, and was alone at his table until he was rudely 00:11:38.140 --> 00:11:39.990 interrupted by these people, who then started a fight. 00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:44.029 If we do not prove him innocent, he will go away for twenty-five years. 00:11:44.029 --> 00:11:45.029 Do you understand? 00:11:45.029 --> 00:11:46.029 RAJ: Yes, I understand. 00:11:46.029 --> 00:11:47.029 “LAWYER”1: There will be a cost if you want to save his life. 00:11:47.029 --> 00:11:49.519 We will have to encourage the officers to remember events the way we want them to, some 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:50.519 money put into their pockets. 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:51.519 Think of it as a small fine. 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.580 I’ll need you to send money to help him. 00:11:54.580 --> 00:11:58.210 RAJ: But wait; he has more money than me. 00:11:58.210 --> 00:12:00.120 Can’t you take it from him? 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:02.290 “LAWYER”1: That’s not going to work. 00:12:02.290 --> 00:12:03.730 Talk to your cousin. 00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:06.680 He’ll tell you what to do. 00:12:06.680 --> 00:12:08.529 “JAGGA”: Hello, Raj? 00:12:08.529 --> 00:12:12.860 RAJ: How much money do you have? 00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:14.100 “JAGGA”: Raj? 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:22.110 Raj, I have loads in my account account, but I don’t have any access to it. 00:12:22.110 --> 00:12:25.240 You must pay it off, however much it costs. 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:26.760 I will pay you back. 00:12:26.760 --> 00:12:34.260 I swear by Guru Granth, I’ll repay you as soon as I get out. 00:12:34.260 --> 00:12:41.270 RAJ: We need your dad’s help for this one, cousin. 00:12:41.270 --> 00:12:46.180 “JAGGA”: Please, please, please, don’t call anyone. 00:12:46.180 --> 00:12:49.680 I’ll be shamed for eternity. 00:12:49.680 --> 00:12:52.490 I’m begging you, please. 00:12:52.490 --> 00:13:00.200 RAJ: My family is going to realize if money goes missing. 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:06.510 “JAGGA”: No, no, no, it won’t be that much. 00:13:06.510 --> 00:13:12.060 Talk to the lawyer and he’ll give you an idea. 00:13:12.060 --> 00:13:19.000 My life will be wasted if you don’t help me out now. 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:20.740 RAJ: Okay, okay. 00:13:20.740 --> 00:13:23.389 “JAGGA”: Yeah, talk to him. 00:13:23.389 --> 00:13:24.850 “LAWYER”1: Hello? 00:13:24.850 --> 00:13:27.490 RAJ: Lawyer, how much money is needed? 00:13:27.490 --> 00:13:34.740 “LAWYER”1: It will cost about $2,000. $1,500 is needed just to pay for damages to 00:13:34.740 --> 00:13:35.850 the club. 00:13:35.850 --> 00:13:39.080 RAJ: Okay, listen, lawyer; I have one request. 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:40.080 “LAWYER”1: Yes? 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:44.740 RAJ: I want you to leave my cousin in prison for a long time. 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:46.740 “LAWYER”1: What? Why? 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.060 RAJ: Because he’s a terrible person. 00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:51.820 He tried to scam me for $2,000. 00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:56.040 You’re both sick to act like my cousin and try to steal money from me. 00:13:56.040 --> 00:14:05.620 I know my cousin Jagga and he does not sound like that. 00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:21.200 I’ve recorded this entire call and I will share it with the police. 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:30.560 JACK: I find this call interesting. 00:14:30.560 --> 00:14:34.520 The victim recognized that this was an attempted scam right away and recorded the whole phone 00:14:34.520 --> 00:14:38.200 conversation, and it’s very good for him to notice it that soon and hit Record for 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:39.250 the whole call. 00:14:39.250 --> 00:14:42.149 But would you have noticed this was a scam so early on? 00:14:42.149 --> 00:14:48.190 If your cousin called you out of the blue and was in trouble, would you have been tempted 00:14:48.190 --> 00:14:50.390 to send him $2,000 to free him? 00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:55.889 [PUNJABI IN BACKGROUND] Apparently this kind of scam is becoming more popular in Punjab, 00:14:55.889 --> 00:15:01.310 which is a region near India and Pakistan. 00:15:01.310 --> 00:15:08.730 What you’re hearing behind me here is a clip from a YouTuber called SookViral, highlighting 00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:11.860 how people are getting hit with this scam. 00:15:11.860 --> 00:15:20.680 The idea here is simple; the scammer will pose as someone you know and ask you for money. 00:15:20.680 --> 00:15:22.660 It’s not always the same scenario, though. 00:15:22.660 --> 00:15:24.350 Let’s hear another one of these calls. 00:15:24.350 --> 00:15:25.350 [PHONE RINGING] 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:26.350 COUSIN: Hello? 00:15:26.350 --> 00:15:27.350 “Tarun”: Hey, buddy. 00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:28.350 How are you doing? 00:15:28.350 --> 00:15:29.680 COUSIN: Yeah, I’m good, thanks, and you? 00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:30.680 “Tarun”: Yep, all good here. 00:15:30.680 --> 00:15:31.980 What have you been up to? 00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:33.400 COUSIN: Do I know you? 00:15:33.400 --> 00:15:34.400 Sorry. 00:15:34.400 --> 00:15:35.660 “Tarun”: What, you don’t recognize my voice? 00:15:35.660 --> 00:15:36.660 COUSIN: No, sorry. 00:15:36.660 --> 00:15:37.660 “Tarun”: What? 00:15:37.660 --> 00:15:39.810 I’m sure your daughters Kriti and Rani would recognize my voice. 00:15:39.810 --> 00:15:40.810 It’s Tarun. 00:15:40.810 --> 00:15:41.810 I’m calling from Canada. 00:15:41.810 --> 00:15:43.810 COUSIN: Oh, Tarun. Hi. 00:15:43.810 --> 00:15:44.810 I didn’t recognize your… 00:15:44.810 --> 00:15:46.259 “TARUN”: I’m calling you because I’m in trouble and I need your help. 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:47.259 COUSIN: Oh, no. 00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:48.259 What’s happened? 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:49.990 “TARUN”: You know I went to Canada to do my studies, right? 00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:50.990 COUSIN: Yes, I know. 00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:54.160 “TARUN”: So, first I moved in with a girl while going to school, and I tell you, cousin, 00:15:54.160 --> 00:15:56.350 I never did anything wrong to her. 00:15:56.350 --> 00:16:02.480 But we did some things together and she took a video of me naked in her bed, and now she 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.000 has accused me of raping her. 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:10.449 Oh, this is so embarrassing to say out loud because it’s not true. 00:16:10.449 --> 00:16:12.130 I’m just so awkward. 00:16:12.130 --> 00:16:14.649 I know you will help me. 00:16:14.649 --> 00:16:17.399 COUSIN: Why don’t you call your dad or sister? 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:19.160 “TARUN”: Oh, no, no, you know my parents. 00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:26.310 If they get to know about this, they will be panicked and really upset. 00:16:26.310 --> 00:16:31.910 Let me get out of this trouble and I will let them know personally. 00:16:31.910 --> 00:16:34.459 But I don’t want them to know right now. 00:16:34.459 --> 00:16:36.730 My dad will not believe me, cousin. 00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:39.190 It’s too embarrassing and he will be angry. 00:16:39.190 --> 00:16:41.019 He’s already unhappy about my grades. 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:43.149 I don’t want to make it worse. 00:16:43.149 --> 00:16:44.980 COUSIN: So what can I do? 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:49.860 “TARUN”: I’ve talked to a lawyer who says he can get me free from this charge, 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:52.220 but he’s expensive and I don’t have the money. 00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:54.270 COUSIN: How much money do you need? 00:16:54.270 --> 00:16:57.589 “TARUN”: The lawyer is also from Punjab and he wants to help. 00:16:57.589 --> 00:17:00.470 Because we’re both from Punjab, he’s giving me a discount. 00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:03.930 He says for 40,000 rupees, he can free me from the charges. 00:17:03.930 --> 00:17:06.230 COUSIN: That’s, what, $2,000 Canadian, is that right? 00:17:06.230 --> 00:17:07.230 “TARUN”: Yes, cousin. 00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:12.650 I’m sorry to ask you like this, but you would be saving my life. 00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:16.630 Imagine, if I don’t do anything, I will go to jail for a long time. 00:17:16.630 --> 00:17:18.640 COUSIN: Okay, okay, I will help. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.990 How can I send you the money? 00:17:20.990 --> 00:17:24.000 “TARUN”: Okay, so, I have my lawyer right here. 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.339 He can tell you. 00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:27.270 I’ll give the phone to him now. 00:17:27.270 --> 00:17:29.270 Here. “LAWYER”2: Hello? 00:17:29.270 --> 00:17:30.270 COUSIN: Hello. 00:17:30.270 --> 00:17:32.750 “LAWYER”2: We think we can free your cousin from the charges, but we need 40,000 rupees 00:17:32.750 --> 00:17:34.610 to get started on the case. 00:17:34.610 --> 00:17:36.130 Are you able to send that? 00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:37.600 COUSIN: Yes, I will send it. 00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:38.600 “LAWYER”2: Okay. 00:17:38.600 --> 00:17:41.039 The fastest way to send the money is through Western Union. 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:42.230 Do you have a pen? 00:17:42.230 --> 00:17:44.780 I’ll tell you the name to send it to. 00:17:44.780 --> 00:17:46.929 COUSIN: Yes, yes, please tell me. 00:17:46.929 --> 00:17:49.080 I will send it right away. 00:17:49.080 --> 00:17:50.080 “LAWYER”2: Okay. 00:17:50.080 --> 00:17:52.830 You must send it using Western Union to [inaudible]. 00:17:52.830 --> 00:17:53.950 COUSIN: Okay, I will. 00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:55.950 Thank you. Bye, goodbye. 00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:59.570 JACK: Tarun’s cousin was convinced he spoke to Tarun on the phone and wanted to help him, 00:17:59.570 --> 00:18:00.929 so he sent $700. 00:18:00.929 --> 00:18:02.980 [MUSIC] But, ouch, this was a scam. 00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:06.990 He was out all that money, and almost immediately after sending the money, the scammer called 00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:08.090 back, asking for another $1,200. 00:18:08.090 --> 00:18:11.679 Tarun’s cousin said, okay, and started trying to get more money to send, but then started 00:18:11.679 --> 00:18:15.610 having second thoughts and decided to call Tarun’s sister, and just told his sister, 00:18:15.610 --> 00:18:18.830 hey, can you check on Tarun to make sure everything is okay? 00:18:18.830 --> 00:18:20.429 TARUN: My name is Tarun and I’m living in Canada basically from India in Punjab state. 00:18:20.429 --> 00:18:22.950 JACK: This is the real Tarun, the guy that the scammer was impersonating. 00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:24.570 TARUN: I’ll start from the beginning. 00:18:24.570 --> 00:18:30.110 One day I woke up early, around 4:00 AM, and I saw some missed calls from one of my family 00:18:30.110 --> 00:18:32.530 members, my cousin, and one from my sister. 00:18:32.530 --> 00:18:36.560 I called my sister first and she said, hey, where are you and are you okay? 00:18:36.560 --> 00:18:38.780 She seemed panicked to me and I asked her what happened. 00:18:38.780 --> 00:18:39.780 She said, okay, call your cousin. 00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:41.549 He will tell you the whole story. 00:18:41.549 --> 00:18:42.940 JACK: Tarun was confused. 00:18:42.940 --> 00:18:43.980 The whole story? 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:45.380 What’s the whole story? 00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:48.150 Something very strange was going on here and even his sister won’t tell him what’s 00:18:48.150 --> 00:18:49.150 going on. 00:18:49.150 --> 00:18:50.150 But, okay, Tarun ends the call with his sister. 00:18:50.150 --> 00:18:51.150 TARUN: I called my cousin. 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:52.150 He said, hey, are you okay? 00:18:52.150 --> 00:18:53.150 I said, yes, I’m okay. 00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:54.150 I’m in my house. 00:18:54.150 --> 00:18:55.150 What happened? 00:18:55.150 --> 00:18:58.090 [MUSIC] He said somebody impersonated you and called me and said that I’m in trouble; 00:18:58.090 --> 00:19:00.650 I’m in jail for doing something really embarrassing. 00:19:00.650 --> 00:19:03.799 So, I was surprised at that moment. 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:11.720 Like, how could somebody involve my cousin or my relative in such kind of thing? 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:17.169 JACK: You gotta probably appreciate your cousin for helping you out. 00:19:17.169 --> 00:19:22.380 If you get in jail, he’s gonna send you $1,200… 00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:23.380 TARUN: Yes, exactly. 00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:24.380 Yes, yes. 00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:28.320 Actually, I — after a few months, I sent him the money that he lost. 00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:35.600 He wasn’t asking for it but I thought I should pay him back because it was all from 00:19:35.600 --> 00:19:40.409 his resources, and what would happen if he sent another 9,000 rupees to the scammer who 00:19:40.409 --> 00:19:41.730 lost all the money? 00:19:41.730 --> 00:19:46.090 That money gets erased and his family — so, I thought, okay, I will send him the 40,000 00:19:46.090 --> 00:19:47.130 rupees that he lost. 00:19:47.130 --> 00:19:50.690 JACK: Hm, wow, that — what even is the morally right thing to do here? 00:19:50.690 --> 00:19:54.630 On one hand, his cousin is the one who made the mistake, and Tarun did nothing wrong. 00:19:54.630 --> 00:19:58.870 But on the other hand, Tarun’s cousin came to his rescue even though he didn’t actually 00:19:58.870 --> 00:20:01.450 need help and sent money to a scammer and not him. 00:20:01.450 --> 00:20:05.940 But to just call someone out of the blue like that and they immediately send you $1,700, 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:07.289 that’s a great cousin to have. 00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:10.320 I think Tarun did a standup move by sending his cousin the money he lost. 00:20:10.320 --> 00:20:12.720 How this scam works seems kind of familiar to me, actually. 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.440 [MUSIC] I’ve always been warning people about scammers targeting elderly people to 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:21.260 try to tell them their grandchild or something is in trouble and needs help to get out of 00:20:21.260 --> 00:20:25.150 a mess, because some elderly people think that family is above everything and they’ll 00:20:25.150 --> 00:20:29.840 just immediately try to help their family without thinking about it or validating it. 00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:34.480 So, if a scammer knows someone is traveling abroad, they could call back home to the grandparent 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.080 and say, your son has been arrested here and needs money to bail them out of jail. 00:20:39.080 --> 00:20:42.420 The grandparent might just pay right away, because it’s very difficult to work through 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:43.420 time zones and phones and stuff. 00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:50.090 So, the grandparent doesn’t want to drop the call since it may be really hard to get 00:20:50.090 --> 00:20:52.220 that person back who’s in another country. 00:20:52.220 --> 00:20:54.990 Calling long-distance and getting a person who can speak their language is sometimes 00:20:54.990 --> 00:20:55.990 pretty tricky. 00:20:55.990 --> 00:20:57.840 The other thing I’m starting to see a rise in is AI scammers. 00:20:57.840 --> 00:21:04.220 This is where they get some clips of audio from the person that they’re trying to imitate 00:21:04.220 --> 00:21:10.580 and then they get AI to clone that voice so that AI can just talk like that person for 00:21:10.580 --> 00:21:11.580 them. 00:21:11.580 --> 00:21:15.770 Then, this is when they call the victim and their voice sounds just like their real cousin 00:21:15.770 --> 00:21:17.030 or brother or whatever. 00:21:17.030 --> 00:21:22.419 Tarun and his family did not know that these kind of scams were going around, and they 00:21:22.419 --> 00:21:27.260 paid a price for it. 00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:31.690 But once it happened, they started seeing how other families are getting hit with these 00:21:31.690 --> 00:21:35.549 kind of scams, too, and noticing post after post on social media. 00:21:35.549 --> 00:21:42.020 TARUN: As the time passed, after several months, I got to see the same stories or same scams 00:21:42.020 --> 00:21:43.200 on Facebook happening to other people as well. 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:47.320 JACK: Now, what was surprising to me when I first heard about Tarun’s story is that 00:21:47.320 --> 00:21:52.140 I think everyone’s heard about these Indian scammers trying to call you and act like they’re 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:56.200 Microsoft tech support so you can send them some money or something. 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.159 But I’ve not heard of Indian scammers scamming other people from India. 00:22:00.159 --> 00:22:02.669 But apparently there’s a reason for this. 00:22:02.669 --> 00:22:06.770 TARUN: I come from the Punjab in India, so most of the population has migrated to foreign 00:22:06.770 --> 00:22:10.150 countries like Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and so, there’s hardly any 00:22:10.150 --> 00:22:16.150 person in India or in Punjab who doesn’t know anybody in — one of their relatives 00:22:16.150 --> 00:22:18.950 or friends who is living abroad. 00:22:18.950 --> 00:22:22.309 So, the scammers is taking advantage of this fact that if you go to any random person in 00:22:22.309 --> 00:22:28.230 Punjab and ask them if he or she has any relatives living abroad, I don’t really think that 00:22:28.230 --> 00:22:31.850 anyone would ever say no to this fact. 00:22:31.850 --> 00:22:35.980 JACK: [MUSIC] It’s also really tricky when scammers say, oh, don’t tell mom or dad. 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:41.070 You know how they are; they’ll have a heart attack, which is such a powerful line, especially 00:22:41.070 --> 00:22:44.520 if the target’s dad did have a heart attack, you know? 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:47.279 It’s a great reason not to tell them. 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.390 But these scammers are even more tricky than that. 00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:55.390 TARUN: In the end when he gets the address of the entity — and he said, hey, are you 00:22:55.390 --> 00:22:56.390 alone? 00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:58.620 I want to tell you something in private. 00:22:58.620 --> 00:23:04.169 If you’re not, just get out of the house and — I want to say something or I want 00:23:04.169 --> 00:23:06.270 you to do me a favor. 00:23:06.270 --> 00:23:14.549 JACK: Here’s another red flag, when a scammer tries to isolate you and get you to not tell 00:23:14.549 --> 00:23:15.549 anyone else. 00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:19.679 That should be a warning sign, like, wait a minute, why is this a secret? 00:23:19.679 --> 00:23:22.580 I think I do need to bring this up with someone else in my family. 00:23:22.580 --> 00:23:26.480 But it’s crazy that just a little bit of small talk is how you can get your target 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:27.480 to do this. 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.080 I’m still not convinced that these scammers are from India scamming other people from 00:23:31.080 --> 00:23:32.080 India. 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:35.440 Stay with us because when we come back from the break, we learn where they’re really 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:36.440 from. 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:37.549 Okay, so, these scammers speak fluent Punjabi, right? 00:23:37.549 --> 00:23:41.300 That’s a language spoken in the Punjab region, but that region is very interesting. 00:23:41.300 --> 00:23:48.549 TARUN: The thing is that Punjab is halfly divided in Pakistan and some other areas of 00:23:48.549 --> 00:23:49.549 India. 00:23:49.549 --> 00:23:54.770 So, if somebody is studying in Punjabi, it’s the same language as people living in the 00:23:54.770 --> 00:23:56.520 Indian side as well. 00:23:56.520 --> 00:24:01.710 JACK: Yeah, Punjab is actually a really big area in South Asia and is shared between Pakistan 00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:02.710 and India. 00:24:02.710 --> 00:24:06.690 The two countries have a long-standing feud for loads of reasons, and a similar feud is 00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:09.380 seen between the Punjabis in India and Pakistan. 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:14.500 So, even though they share the same language and live right next door to each other, they 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:21.580 do not always get along, and this may be a reason why people in this area are being targeted. 00:24:21.580 --> 00:24:25.399 It could be part of the continued feud between Pakistan and India. 00:24:25.399 --> 00:24:31.480 Tarun actually saw a video of someone who recorded one of these scam calls. 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:38.830 TARUN: The scammer, he called someone and the guy on the other side of the phone, he 00:24:38.830 --> 00:24:42.039 recognized him; hey, I know you are a scammer. 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.390 You’ve been calling to people in such a way and collecting the money. 00:24:45.390 --> 00:24:46.390 Why would you do that? 00:24:46.390 --> 00:24:48.730 The scammer, he just got straightforward and said, hey, you know everything is not going 00:24:48.730 --> 00:24:49.730 in Pakistan. 00:24:49.730 --> 00:24:50.730 We don’t get any jobs. 00:24:50.730 --> 00:24:51.730 We are unemployed. 00:24:51.730 --> 00:24:52.730 So, in any way we have to get the money from the people. 00:24:52.730 --> 00:24:53.730 So, it’s the easiest way we can get money from the people. 00:24:53.730 --> 00:24:54.730 JACK: The language difference between Punjabi spoken in Pakistan and India is close enough 00:24:54.730 --> 00:24:55.730 that it can trick a lot of people. 00:24:55.730 --> 00:24:56.730 TARUN: Yes, because there are some parts in Punjab where on the border side of Pakistan 00:24:56.730 --> 00:24:57.730 — so, their accent in Punjabi is kind of similar. 00:24:57.730 --> 00:24:58.730 So, you cannot really tell. 00:24:58.730 --> 00:24:59.730 JACK: [MUSIC] As Tarun researched this scam more, he saw some other methods scammers were 00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:00.730 trying to do. 00:25:00.730 --> 00:25:01.730 Another one he saw was where the scammer says this… 00:25:01.730 --> 00:25:02.730 TARUN: Hey, I’m coming in India or Punjab in next few months, and I want to send some 00:25:02.730 --> 00:25:03.730 money to you so that you can keep it safe, because if I send it to my family, they will 00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:04.730 just spend it all. 00:25:04.730 --> 00:25:05.730 So, the target gets some kind of confidence that, okay, he’s sending me the money, so, 00:25:05.730 --> 00:25:06.730 it is kind of legitimate. 00:25:06.730 --> 00:25:07.730 The target says, okay, I will send you money through Western Union or any other mode of 00:25:07.730 --> 00:25:08.730 transfer and I will let you know. 00:25:08.730 --> 00:25:09.730 JACK: Now, of course the scammer does not actually send this money to the victim. 00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:10.730 What they do instead is they get a different scammer to call up the victim and pose as 00:25:10.730 --> 00:25:11.730 the bank or Western Union and say something like, hello, this is the bank. 00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:12.730 We’re calling to let you know that there’s been a large deposit in your name. 00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:13.730 Someone has just put $9,000 into your account and it’s ready for you to pick up at any 00:25:13.730 --> 00:25:14.730 time. 00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:15.730 But then, before that person can leave the house and go get the money, they get another 00:25:15.730 --> 00:25:16.730 call from the same scammer once again. 00:25:16.730 --> 00:25:17.730 TARUN: So, he gets another call and he said, hey, have you got the money? 00:25:17.730 --> 00:25:18.730 He said, yes, I got the money; got a call from the bank. 00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:19.730 So, okay, so everything going really well in India? 00:25:19.730 --> 00:25:20.730 He says, hey, I have a friend living in your area, maybe the other side, and he got into 00:25:20.730 --> 00:25:21.730 trouble and he needs some money as quick as possible. 00:25:21.730 --> 00:25:22.730 So, can you send him some more of the money that I sent you earlier? 00:25:22.730 --> 00:25:23.730 Let’s say 2 lakh in rupees or 2,000 in dollars. 00:25:23.730 --> 00:25:24.730 After a while he sent some money to the scammer and by the time the target realizes that he 00:25:24.730 --> 00:25:25.730 got scammed, it’s over. 00:25:25.730 --> 00:25:26.730 It’s too late for him to know. 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:27.730 JACK: Oh man, those jerks. 00:25:27.730 --> 00:25:28.730 These scammers are sneaky. 00:25:28.730 --> 00:25:29.730 But again, this scam requires a bit of research by the scammers to be so successful. 00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:30.730 You gotta know someone’s details to convince them who you’re impersonating, and it sounds 00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:31.730 like Tarun’s cousin was tricked into thinking the scammer was Tarun by giving him details 00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:32.730 that only Tarun would know. 00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:33.730 I wonder, how do they get that info? 00:25:33.730 --> 00:25:34.730 Did they find Tarun on Facebook or something and that’s why they decided to target him? 00:25:34.730 --> 00:25:35.730 TARUN: This could be a possibility, but usually I don’t hear a lot of details about my family 00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:36.730 on the social media. 00:25:36.730 --> 00:25:37.730 So, there could — maybe there could be another way. 00:25:37.730 --> 00:25:38.730 JACK: Well, if the scammers are not grabbing people’s details from social media, what 00:25:38.730 --> 00:25:39.730 other methods are there to get info on someone? 00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:40.730 Tarun kept watching videos about these scammers on Facebook and noticed something in one video. 00:25:40.730 --> 00:25:41.730 In one scam call, the victim was like, no, no, no, I’m no sucker. 00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:42.730 I’m not getting scammed by you. 00:25:42.730 --> 00:25:43.730 TARUN: So, the target, he said, no, I’m not gonna fall into such a trap with you. 00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:44.730 You have to drop this. 00:25:44.730 --> 00:25:45.730 You have to drop this. 00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:46.730 This is not good. 00:25:46.730 --> 00:25:47.730 But the scammer said, yes, but we have to earn some money in some way. 00:25:47.730 --> 00:25:48.730 So, the scammer, he asked him to do him a favor, the target. 00:25:48.730 --> 00:25:49.730 He said, if you could give me details of your relatives or anyone in your friend circle 00:25:49.730 --> 00:25:50.730 — and whatever the money I will get from them, I will send you 20% or 25% of it. 00:25:50.730 --> 00:25:51.730 JACK: Whoa, whoa, whoa, so, the scammer’s making what deal again? 00:25:51.730 --> 00:25:55.440 TARUN: Yes, he said if you give me details of your — anyone in your family or anyone 00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:00.730 in your friend circle, whatever the money I will get from them by scamming them, I will 00:26:00.730 --> 00:26:02.820 send you 20% or 25% of it. 00:26:02.820 --> 00:26:05.120 So, this is a kind of win-win situation. 00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:06.710 JACK: Why would somebody give that…? 00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:09.010 Oh, because they want 25% of it. 00:26:09.010 --> 00:26:12.870 Man, that’s messed up that — to say, yeah, you can scam my cousin. 00:26:12.870 --> 00:26:14.000 TARUN: Yes. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:20.909 Or remember I told you that how — I guess this might be the way the scammer who scammed 00:26:20.909 --> 00:26:26.130 my cousin — he might have got some details about me and my cousin maybe from my family 00:26:26.130 --> 00:26:30.250 or relatives because I know them, how they are. 00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:35.740 Not blaming them, but I think this just has more possibility. 00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:37.109 JACK: Dang. 00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:39.520 Think through your family relatives for a moment. 00:26:39.520 --> 00:26:43.520 You think there’s anyone in your family or friends that would give your details to 00:26:43.520 --> 00:26:46.289 a scammer in hopes to make a few hundred dollars from it? 00:26:46.289 --> 00:26:50.730 I mean, your family wouldn’t be scamming you directly; they’d only be giving information 00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:56.510 about you, like what city you’re in or what children you have, what jobs you have, just 00:26:56.510 --> 00:27:01.980 enough information to impersonate you on a basic level, and of course, phone numbers. 00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:05.230 I know there are people in my family that may do it. 00:27:05.230 --> 00:27:10.870 One of my cousins is currently homeless, and last we spoke, we got into a fight. 00:27:10.870 --> 00:27:13.299 Who knows what that kid’s out there doing for cash right now. 00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:18.680 I don’t know, I just think that this is wild that scammers are getting caught in the 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:24.720 act but then offering to pay you for information on any targets that you can give them, offering 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:26.450 25% of the cut, even. 00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:29.840 You know, now that I think of it, that’s probably a scam, too. 00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:33.809 If you give them information, you are probably never gonna see your cut of the money. 00:27:33.809 --> 00:27:36.950 I mean, did your cousin open a police report or anything? 00:27:36.950 --> 00:27:44.590 TARUN: I guess not, because if he went for the guy, there would be no help from the police, 00:27:44.590 --> 00:27:45.700 I would say. 00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:51.370 I heard some — from some people on Facebook, they got scammed around $10,000 Canadian dollar, 00:27:51.370 --> 00:27:58.309 $15,000 Canadian dollar in Punjab, and they reported an FIR to the police, but I never 00:27:58.309 --> 00:28:01.480 heard any of them getting to the scammer. 00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:07.279 So, I don’t really think that the police would ever make any effort to get the guy, 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.340 because they have a lot of other stuff to do. 00:28:10.340 --> 00:28:14.850 JACK: So, people in Punjab who are scammed for more than $10,000 can submit an FIR, and 00:28:14.850 --> 00:28:18.800 that’s the First Incident Report, which is the first thing you should do to register 00:28:18.800 --> 00:28:20.390 an issue with the police in India. 00:28:20.390 --> 00:28:23.370 But then, a lot of times nothing happens of it. 00:28:23.370 --> 00:28:27.770 I guess this is why it’s rising in popularity, because it’s so easy to get away with. 00:28:27.770 --> 00:28:33.080 I don’t even understand the border situation enough down there to know what region has 00:28:33.080 --> 00:28:37.270 jurisdiction over each other or if anything can be done about this. 00:28:37.270 --> 00:28:39.870 Suppose they do track this to be someone from Pakistan. 00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:42.049 Can the Indian police arrest someone in Pakistan? 00:28:42.049 --> 00:28:45.600 Would the Pakistani police do something with that information? 00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:46.600 I have no idea. 00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:50.679 But I still think if you’re a victim of a scam and lose money, it’s a good step 00:28:50.679 --> 00:28:52.690 to issue a police report if you can. 00:28:52.690 --> 00:28:56.640 There have been some cases where scammers were caught, and you may be the person with 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.140 the information that can help catch them. 00:28:58.140 --> 00:28:59.590 I don’t know the stats. 00:28:59.590 --> 00:29:04.029 I imagine it’s a slim chance that your report will do anything, but I still think having 00:29:04.029 --> 00:29:06.690 that hope can sometimes keep you going. 00:29:06.690 --> 00:29:11.990 Once Tarun got privy that this kind of scam is going out there in the wild, he became 00:29:11.990 --> 00:29:13.630 a target of this scam himself. 00:29:13.630 --> 00:29:19.260 TARUN: Even myself, I got two calls from a number in Pakistan. 00:29:19.260 --> 00:29:24.530 It had the area code of +92, and somebody said, hey, how are you? 00:29:24.530 --> 00:29:25.990 I said, yeah, I’m good. 00:29:25.990 --> 00:29:26.990 How are you? 00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:28.330 They said, hey, recognize me? 00:29:28.330 --> 00:29:31.929 I said, yes, you are that person. 00:29:31.929 --> 00:29:33.840 I just made up some scenario. 00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:35.720 I said, hey, what happened to your wife? 00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:38.100 I heard he ran away with some other random guy. 00:29:38.100 --> 00:29:39.899 He said, uh, yes, it happened, it happened. 00:29:39.899 --> 00:29:43.539 I asked him, hey, tell me how — explain to me how it happened. 00:29:43.539 --> 00:29:47.130 They said, no, no, no, I will explain that to you later. 00:29:47.130 --> 00:29:48.279 Then he hung up the phone. 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.430 JACK: I think this is a brilliant way to combat this kind of scam, to do a verification check 00:29:52.430 --> 00:29:53.540 of some kind. 00:29:53.540 --> 00:29:56.050 You could ask them to confirm something that only they knew. 00:29:56.050 --> 00:29:59.400 Like, you could trick them and say something like, oh, do you remember that one summer 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:00.649 we went to the lake together? 00:30:00.649 --> 00:30:01.899 That was fun, wasn’t it? 00:30:01.899 --> 00:30:05.340 When they say, yeah, yeah, I do — but you never went to the lake with that person. 00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:07.090 Now you know they’re lying. 00:30:07.090 --> 00:30:11.630 I know with my dad, we have some code words that if one of us is in trouble, we have to 00:30:11.630 --> 00:30:13.760 say the code word to prove it’s you. 00:30:13.760 --> 00:30:18.510 I’ve told him if he ever gets kidnapped and someone calls me to pay the ransom, my 00:30:18.510 --> 00:30:22.140 immediate reaction is to not believe them unless I hear the code word. 00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:25.260 So, you gotta tell your kidnappers the code word if you want me to send you money, otherwise 00:30:25.260 --> 00:30:27.090 I’m just hanging up the phone. 00:30:27.090 --> 00:30:29.250 He’s cool with that. 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:34.320 But stories like this really do bring my focus back to looking after our digital privacy 00:30:34.320 --> 00:30:35.960 online. 00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.409 Someone who knows a lot about digital privacy is Naomi. 00:30:38.409 --> 00:30:39.919 NAOMI: I’m Naomi Brockwell. 00:30:39.919 --> 00:30:46.390 I run a media platform called NBTV.media, and we focus on helping people protect their 00:30:46.390 --> 00:30:47.720 privacy online. 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:53.900 JACK: In this story, the scammer seems to know quite a lot of information about the 00:30:53.900 --> 00:30:56.200 victim that they’re targeting, right? 00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:02.730 They know this person’s kids’ names, where they live, who — what cousins they have 00:31:02.730 --> 00:31:05.269 they know from abroad, and this sort of thing. 00:31:05.269 --> 00:31:10.920 Do you have any idea where a scammer might be getting this kind of information from? 00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:14.740 NAOMI: I think we give away all of this data voluntarily online. 00:31:14.740 --> 00:31:20.500 I think we’re incredibly lax with how we don’t protect our data these days. 00:31:20.500 --> 00:31:24.630 I interviewed someone recently; it was an interesting story. 00:31:24.630 --> 00:31:29.889 He bought a new car and it was a used car, actually, and just by looking through the 00:31:29.889 --> 00:31:35.809 details in the car, he was able to find out the name of the previous owner, that the previous 00:31:35.809 --> 00:31:40.140 owner had two daughters, where they went to school, that she was a breast cancer survivor. 00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:44.409 All of this stuff was literally just the data that the car itself was collecting. 00:31:44.409 --> 00:31:49.080 So, now if you zoom out and look at all of the information that we’re posting on social 00:31:49.080 --> 00:31:54.650 media of our own volition, just handing it over, all the personal details about our lives, 00:31:54.650 --> 00:31:59.240 it’s incredible how much information we’re just giving away online. 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:03.500 It’s incredibly easy for anyone to find out anything they want about us these days, 00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:04.970 and that’s mainly our fault. 00:32:04.970 --> 00:32:09.700 It’s mainly because we are really not thinking about how to protect our data online. 00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:16.389 I think we need a major mind shift in this digital age, and we need to really start to 00:32:16.389 --> 00:32:19.950 be aware of how much information we’re putting out there. 00:32:19.950 --> 00:32:21.740 JACK: I don’t think it’s always your fault. 00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:26.830 Do you ever think about that, of just like, we’re living in this world where stuff just 00:32:26.830 --> 00:32:28.570 gets leaked and it’s not your fault? 00:32:28.570 --> 00:32:32.840 NAOMI: That’s definitely part of it, but I do think that individuals do have to take 00:32:32.840 --> 00:32:36.419 some responsibility for how they navigate their digital lives. 00:32:36.419 --> 00:32:38.519 I think we need to stop being naive. 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:39.960 I mean, it’s 2023. 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:41.930 We’ve had computers for a long time now. 00:32:41.930 --> 00:32:46.590 We’ve had the internet for a long time now, and I don’t want to blame people for not 00:32:46.590 --> 00:32:52.500 being aware that their data is being collected by every corner of the internet. 00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:54.250 There’s third-party trackers everywhere. 00:32:54.250 --> 00:32:59.790 There are data brokers scraping all of our financial data, all of our legal records, 00:32:59.790 --> 00:33:02.250 all of our social media posts. 00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:06.950 There are nefarious actors out there who want to collect our data. 00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:10.420 There are non-nefarious actors who just want to monetize our data. 00:33:10.420 --> 00:33:15.769 So, I don’t think that it’s our fault, but I also don’t think that we need to be 00:33:15.769 --> 00:33:17.070 passive victims. 00:33:17.070 --> 00:33:25.100 I don’t think that it’s okay for people in 2023 to say, oh, well, I’m putting all 00:33:25.100 --> 00:33:29.810 this information out there publicly but I didn’t think someone would use it against 00:33:29.810 --> 00:33:30.810 me. 00:33:30.810 --> 00:33:33.200 Because clearly this is being used against people all the time. 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:39.269 If we just not even talk about scammers, if we just think about the $100-billion industry 00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:44.590 or potentially trillion-dollar industry that is the data-brokerage industry, it’s incredible. 00:33:44.590 --> 00:33:49.620 They are making so much obscene amounts of money just from collecting our data, from 00:33:49.620 --> 00:33:55.289 scraping social media, from ingesting data breaches that are out there, from scraping 00:33:55.289 --> 00:33:56.700 our financial records. 00:33:56.700 --> 00:33:59.519 I mean, our banks are selling all of our records, right? 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.519 We know this. 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:01.789 They tell us when we sign up. 00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:06.600 They literally say you are giving us permission to hand over all your financial data to third 00:34:06.600 --> 00:34:07.600 parties. 00:34:07.600 --> 00:34:08.869 JACK: Wait, banks — hold on a second. 00:34:08.869 --> 00:34:11.490 This banks thing is frustrating to me. 00:34:11.490 --> 00:34:15.440 I think banks are a private sanctuary and they should not be doing this. 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.470 What do you know about this? 00:34:16.470 --> 00:34:21.790 NAOMI: There are a lot of laws that have been passed that basically say, listen, your data 00:34:21.790 --> 00:34:24.110 is not your data anymore. 00:34:24.110 --> 00:34:28.060 It is something that you voluntarily handed over to this third party and they’re allowed 00:34:28.060 --> 00:34:31.140 to do with it what they want. 00:34:31.140 --> 00:34:36.500 Financial data used to be this sanctuary and you had famous places like Switzerland where 00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:42.649 they had these banking laws and you had this private contract with your financial institution 00:34:42.649 --> 00:34:46.369 there and you think that everything you did was just between you and the bank, and that’s 00:34:46.369 --> 00:34:47.480 just not the way of the world. 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:54.450 Not only has the US actually broken this banking system, but they’ve completely undermined 00:34:54.450 --> 00:34:56.580 those laws in the US as well. 00:34:56.580 --> 00:35:02.000 So, now we’re at a situation where, due to things like the third-party doctrine, the 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:07.579 government says that if you hand over your data to a third party, you no longer have 00:35:07.579 --> 00:35:12.730 any reasonable expectation of privacy with that data, and that includes financial institutions. 00:35:12.730 --> 00:35:17.150 Because governments want that data as well, and so, it’s not in their interest to create 00:35:17.150 --> 00:35:19.600 laws that are gonna protect your data. 00:35:19.600 --> 00:35:23.390 It’s in their best interest to make it as easy as possible for these organizations to 00:35:23.390 --> 00:35:25.870 not have liability for handing over your data. 00:35:25.870 --> 00:35:29.200 So, that’s the way that the arrangement goes. 00:35:29.200 --> 00:35:35.480 JACK: I just recently learned about this third-party doctrine, and it’s really frustrating me. 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:41.570 Yeah, as Naomi says, the US has a legal principle that says if you voluntarily give your data 00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:48.950 to another company, you no longer have the reasonable expectation of privacy. 00:35:48.950 --> 00:35:51.220 What? Excuse me? 00:35:51.220 --> 00:35:55.750 This essentially means that every e-mail I’ve ever written is no longer private? 00:35:55.750 --> 00:35:59.220 Every private message I’ve ever sent is not actually private? 00:35:59.220 --> 00:36:02.370 My phone’s GPS location isn’t private? 00:36:02.370 --> 00:36:03.800 This is awful. 00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:08.700 But not only that; the US government made all kinds of laws which require you to give 00:36:08.700 --> 00:36:11.930 up certain information to do things like open bank accounts. 00:36:11.930 --> 00:36:18.190 So, yeah, all your banking information is no longer considered private due to this third-party 00:36:18.190 --> 00:36:19.540 doctrine. 00:36:19.540 --> 00:36:22.579 Guess what the downstream consequences of this is? 00:36:22.579 --> 00:36:28.170 Criminals, scammers, stalkers, thieves, and people who want to target you can now easily 00:36:28.170 --> 00:36:29.830 get data on you. 00:36:29.830 --> 00:36:34.740 The more we become a digital society, the more important it is to protect our digital 00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:39.140 privacy, but the laws seem to be going in the opposite direction. 00:36:39.140 --> 00:36:41.829 It makes me furious. 00:36:41.829 --> 00:36:45.990 Have you ever heard this term, oh, nobody would target me? 00:36:45.990 --> 00:36:47.490 NAOMI: Yeah, everyone says it. 00:36:47.490 --> 00:36:48.490 It’s very naive. 00:36:48.490 --> 00:36:58.510 I think that people haven’t quite adjusted to the digital world, right? 00:36:58.510 --> 00:37:04.490 We’re used to nefarious actors maybe being there in person, someone who’s gonna hold 00:37:04.490 --> 00:37:05.610 you up at gunpoint. 00:37:05.610 --> 00:37:06.710 They’re physically there. 00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:08.080 We understand the threat model. 00:37:08.080 --> 00:37:11.640 It’s a person, they’re — they want to steal your handbag or whatever. 00:37:11.640 --> 00:37:17.220 But we live in the digital age where the people who are attacking us are not next to us. 00:37:17.220 --> 00:37:22.079 They’re sometimes over the other side of the world, and sometimes they’re just completely 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.560 indiscriminate about who they target. 00:37:24.560 --> 00:37:29.460 So, when someone says no one’s gonna target me, I’m unimportant, I think that it is 00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:36.220 naive to underestimate your digital significance in today’s world, because the current situation 00:37:36.220 --> 00:37:39.780 is that scammers are not targeting you. 00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:42.650 They’re indiscriminate with how they attack victims. 00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:49.619 They are casting a giant, wide net that you will inevitably fall into, and this is just 00:37:49.619 --> 00:37:50.930 the current reality. 00:37:50.930 --> 00:37:52.940 It doesn’t matter whether you think you’re important or not. 00:37:52.940 --> 00:37:56.510 It doesn’t matter whether you think that you’re a worthy target, whether you’re 00:37:56.510 --> 00:37:58.910 rich or anything, whether you have status. 00:37:58.910 --> 00:38:04.530 You’re gonna be targeted because you will be inevitably captured in this very wide net. 00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:06.369 That’s just how scammers work. 00:38:06.369 --> 00:38:11.170 The reason they do this is because there’s a very low cost to them casting this wide 00:38:11.170 --> 00:38:13.450 net and there is a potential big payoff. 00:38:13.450 --> 00:38:19.080 Even if a tiny fraction of people fall for their scams, there’s a huge potential payoff. 00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:23.000 JACK: So, what can we do to be a self-advocate of our digital privacy? 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:28.010 NAOMI: There are lots of things you can do to make a big impact on your digital privacy. 00:38:28.010 --> 00:38:33.640 First of all, be mindful of the companies, the services that you’re using. 00:38:33.640 --> 00:38:37.550 Start using tools and services online that don’t collect your data. 00:38:37.550 --> 00:38:40.530 Your e-mail provider; think about which e-mail provider you’re using. 00:38:40.530 --> 00:38:45.819 Are they a company that is capturing the contents of every one of your e-mails and they’re 00:38:45.819 --> 00:38:49.020 analyzing it and adding it to a profile about you and selling it? 00:38:49.020 --> 00:38:50.280 Maybe stop using that. 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:55.960 Maybe start using a company that respects the individual’s privacy and takes that 00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:56.960 data out of their own breach. 00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.570 The same thing with private messaging apps. 00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:04.700 Start to choose apps that protect your privacy and don’t actually access the contents of 00:39:04.700 --> 00:39:05.700 your messages. 00:39:05.700 --> 00:39:08.010 So, you can start using other privacy tools online. 00:39:08.010 --> 00:39:13.339 All of this stuff goes a really long way to helping you protect your digital identity, 00:39:13.339 --> 00:39:17.750 because the more careless you are with putting your data out into the wild, allowing these 00:39:17.750 --> 00:39:21.960 companies to collect it, the easier it is for scammers to target you. 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:26.060 So, you need to start being mindful of that and making smarter choices in your digital 00:39:26.060 --> 00:39:27.780 life. 00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:36.630 JACK: [MUSIC] Susan B. Anthony changed the world. 00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:39.520 She grew up in a time when women did not have the right to vote. 00:39:39.520 --> 00:39:41.339 It was illegal, even. 00:39:41.339 --> 00:39:46.099 She said, screw that, and went down and voted anyway. 00:39:46.099 --> 00:39:48.650 She was arrested for voting. 00:39:48.650 --> 00:39:52.660 She was thrown in jail and she went to court and she was found guilty, but she refused 00:39:52.660 --> 00:39:54.180 to pay her fine. 00:39:54.180 --> 00:40:00.750 She had to break the law, to go against the government, in order to make change happen. 00:40:00.750 --> 00:40:11.010 Well, now she’s highly celebrated, even to the point that her face is on the quarter. 00:40:11.010 --> 00:40:17.430 I think about her sometimes and I wonder, what should I be doing that’s wrong but 00:40:17.430 --> 00:40:18.430 right? 00:40:18.430 --> 00:40:22.850 What I keep thinking about is our digital privacy. 00:40:22.850 --> 00:40:26.450 The government is stripping away our privacy from us. 00:40:26.450 --> 00:40:31.910 Corporations are being so grabby of our personal data in a predatory way, and they do it so 00:40:31.910 --> 00:40:35.260 much that it just seems normal at this point. 00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:37.110 But they are wrong. 00:40:37.110 --> 00:40:41.359 So, what’s the right thing to do? 00:40:41.359 --> 00:40:46.540 I imagine a world where our privacy actually matters and it’s not some meaningless double-talk. 00:40:46.540 --> 00:40:50.510 Companies who actually take your privacy seriously are companies that either don’t want your 00:40:50.510 --> 00:40:55.630 data at all or encrypt it in such a way that they can’t even see it even if they wanted. 00:40:55.630 --> 00:40:59.990 This way, no amount of data breaches or subpoenas can expose you and you don’t have to worry 00:40:59.990 --> 00:41:04.510 about these companies looking at your stuff, sharing your stuff, or selling your stuff, 00:41:04.510 --> 00:41:08.230 because it’s all garbled and only you can un-garble it. 00:41:08.230 --> 00:41:13.190 Isn’t that the normal you’d rather seen in the world? 00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:19.080 Companies like Google, Apple, and Facebook all say that they take your privacy seriously, 00:41:19.080 --> 00:41:25.880 but then they proceed to collect every data point about you that they can; your location, 00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:30.490 your contacts, your address, your phone number, your work history, your sexual orientation, 00:41:30.490 --> 00:41:34.770 the car you drive, political affiliations, financial data, all communications with your 00:41:34.770 --> 00:41:39.510 friends and family, and then they analyze this and study you, and then they store it 00:41:39.510 --> 00:41:43.000 all in a database so they can keep building a profile on you. 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:49.849 All of this data is a huge liability for them and for you, and they absolutely, 100%, positively 00:41:49.849 --> 00:41:52.490 don’t need any of it to do what they do. 00:41:52.490 --> 00:41:56.260 I’ve had enough of this and switched from an Android phone to a privacy phone. 00:41:56.260 --> 00:42:00.109 I exclusively use end-to-end encryption for all my text messaging where nobody can see 00:42:00.109 --> 00:42:04.410 the chats but me and the person I’m sending it to, and I moved my e-mail to one that encrypts 00:42:04.410 --> 00:42:07.410 my e-mails on their server so they can’t even read them. 00:42:07.410 --> 00:42:10.650 I stopped using search engines that try to learn everything about me, and I’ve switched 00:42:10.650 --> 00:42:12.910 to ones that collect zero data on their users. 00:42:12.910 --> 00:42:15.750 I’ve stopped using browsers that send my web history somewhere. 00:42:15.750 --> 00:42:20.869 I always use a VPN, and I’m so mad at banks for giving my financial data away that I’m 00:42:20.869 --> 00:42:24.950 ready to just start using cryptocurrency everywhere I can or go back to using cash. 00:42:24.950 --> 00:42:30.030 I’m exercising my rights and I’m being a self-advocate of my digital privacy, and 00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:34.160 I want you to be a self-advocate, too. 00:42:34.160 --> 00:42:37.050 Major tech companies aren’t going to give you privacy. 00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:42.610 The government isn’t going to give you privacy, but you can take it. 00:42:42.610 --> 00:42:45.180 I need you to take it. 00:42:45.180 --> 00:42:55.640 Take your digital privacy seriously, because you know it’s the right thing to do. 00:42:55.640 --> 00:43:10.770 (OUTRO): [OUTRO MUSIC] A huge thank-you to Tarun for coming on the show and sharing this 00:43:10.770 --> 00:43:11.770 story with us. 00:43:11.770 --> 00:43:14.980 I particularly love this story because it gave me a glimpse into a pocket of the world 00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:18.710 that I had little knowledge of, and I feel smarter from having met him. 00:43:18.710 --> 00:43:22.790 Oh, and thank you to Naomi Brockwell for coming on and telling us about digital privacy. 00:43:22.790 --> 00:43:24.910 She always gets me so revved up about it. 00:43:24.910 --> 00:43:30.089 She’s got an awesome YouTube channel called NBTV.media, which can really level up your 00:43:30.089 --> 00:43:34.170 digital privacy, and there’s a book I also recommend for protecting your online privacy, 00:43:34.170 --> 00:43:37.120 which is called Extreme Privacy: What It Takes to Disappear. 00:43:37.120 --> 00:43:40.151 I’ll have links to all this in the show notes. 00:43:40.151 --> 00:43:43.430 This show is made by me, the bloodhound knight, Jack Rhysider. 00:43:43.430 --> 00:43:47.069 This episode was produced by the two-handed, back-slashing Tristan Ledger, mixing done 00:43:47.069 --> 00:43:50.589 by Proximity Sound, and a big thanks to all the voice actors we had on this one. 00:43:50.589 --> 00:43:53.750 Our theme music is created by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. 00:43:53.750 --> 00:43:57.330 Oh no, my robot’s trying to run away. 00:43:57.330 --> 00:43:59.420 Quick; grab the botnet! 00:43:59.420 --> 00:44:00.540 This is Darknet Diaries.