man, have I got a story for you. Where
did this one even come from? Oh, yeah.
It was uh it was Twitter. I got a
Twitter DM and this guy's like, "Hi, I'm
Nathan." And I'm like, "Okay." And he
was like, "Yeah, I've done some stuff
and you might want to interview me. I
should note right here that this episode
has a lot of swear words and I would say
is for mature audiences. So, if you have
some sensitive ears around you, I
recommend listening to this one with
headphones or whatever you need to do.
That's your warning. That's your graphic
warning for this one. So, typically when
someone DMs me and says, "Hey, you know,
you should interview me for your show."
My first response without even knowing
anything about them is, "Can I see your
police report?"
Because a lot of people who message me,
they like want to be on the show for
hacking something, but maybe they've
never been caught. And so, I hate to
glorify their actions, right? But even
more so, it's probably true that their
story isn't over yet. and it's just the
beginning and I should probably check in
with them like in a few years to see how
things are going. But I also have CEOs
message me and say, "Hey, I'd like to
come on the show and tell you about my
product and how great everything is and
how great we can defend things and
stuff." And so when I just immediately
start by asking for a police report,
that cuts right through a lot of the
small talk and gets right to the heart
of what I'm looking for. I want to know
about the worst day of your life. the
the thing that happened that was just
catastrophic to you and you probably
don't even want to talk about that. But
with this guy Nathan, I asked him for a
police report. He just started sending
me link after link and news reports and
files and videos and photos and yeah,
indictments and affidavit and all that
stuff. And it was piling up. This story
just kept growing. I couldn't even keep
up. And I was like, "Okay, okay, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's definitely talk.
Whatever this one is, it looks like it
goes deep." So, I'm like, "Hey, we
should probably switch to Signal," which
is a more private messaging app. And he
gives me his Signal number. And I
message him there, and we start talking.
But then I find out I'm actually talking
to his brother, a different guy. I'm
like, "What? What the Hey, man. I
thought I thought I was talking to you
on signal, but it ended up being your
brother." And he's like, "Yeah, I gave
you both me and my brother my brother's
signal so you could talk to both of us."
And I'm like, "Okay, which one is
yours?" So, he tells me which one is
his. And I'm like, "Okay, let's do a
call." And he's like, "Great. Give me a
date and time and I'll be there." And
I'm like, "All right, well, how about
this weekend?" He's like, "Hell yeah.
Uh, Saturday, I'm free all day." I'm
like, "Great. Let's do it." So, Saturday
comes, I wake up and I check the signal
and I got a message from him in all caps
and it's like, "I have to work until
midnight, but it's not that hard. So, I
can multitask and I can talk to you at
the same time." I'm like, "No, no, no,
no, no. Uh, don't call me while you're
at work. finish your job and then we'll
talk. How about tomorrow, Sunday, 10:00
a.m.? He's like, "Yeah, that sounds
great. I got nothing going on all day
Sunday." So, when Sunday 10:00 a.m.
comes around, he messages me saying,
"Man, my baby mama is tripping, so I
have to drive my daughter somewhere. I'm
going to be 2 hours late for the call."
I'm like, "Oh, okay. Uh, no problem.
It's Sunday. See you in two hours." So,
two hours go by and I'm like, "All
right, you ready?" and he's like, "Uh,
my phone is about to die and I'm not
near a computer, so uh, let me charge it
on a power bank for 30 minutes." I'm
like, "Okay, fine."
And I think at this time he like went to
his mom's house or something and she's
like seven years old and I think she he
was going to take her to the store or
something, but then he text me a photo
of her and she's all dressed up, ready
to go out, jewelry on, purse in hand,
but she's passed out on a couch and he
tells me she drank too much and passed
out. Then he even tells me like it's not
even her house. Uh, someone's asking me
to take my mom somewhere else so now
I've got to drive my passed out mom
somewhere. And then he starts filling my
text with wild chats. He like I don't
even know some of the shit he was saying
to me on Signal. It's like uh he was
going to show me a video of him cussing
out some cops. And then he told me his
brother is on the run due to some
impending felonies. And I'm like, "Is
that the same brother I talked to?" He's
like, "Yeah, man." And he tells me his
uncle killed himself and how he chose
his kids instead of his uncle's life.
And I I can't even follow what he's
saying. But then he goes swimming and he
sends me a photo of him swimming in a
pool with his daughter. And uh needless
to say, we did not get a chance to do a
call that weekend even though I was
sitting on the line for like six hours
waiting for him to show up. So we tried
to reschedule, but man, we had a lot of
conflicts. All I'm trying to say is that
this guy Nathan is one wiggly guy and
it's hard to get on the phone, but
eventually we got on the phone together.
You made it. >> Yeah.
>> So, what are you doing right now?
>> Uh, I'm sitting right here uh with a
bong in front of me in front of the five
computer screens.
>> What about why five?
>> I mean, because my brain's going so
fast.
>> Oh, yeah. You only have two eyes,
though. No, but they're going
everywhere.
>> What's What's you see them all at the
same time kind of. You know what I mean?
>> Why what's going on in your brain? Why
is it going so fast? Explain to me your
process your your brain here.
>> It's like fireworks constantly exploding
in my brain.
>> Yeah. So, give me an example. Are you
like, "Oh, I got to check an email. I
got to check Twitter. I like what's
going on."
>> Yeah. Like thousand a thousand.
>> No, babe. I'm not talking to you. It's
my daughter. >> Mhm.
>> No, honey. Do an interview.
>> She said, "Oh, okay." And that
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, uh, so I I prepare for the
worst and then hope for the best. Does
that make sense? Yeah.
>> That way you're never surprised.
>> Yeah. And you've gone through some
pretty bad stuff. So,
>> Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> You've got different levels of trauma,
>> right? There are levels to it. For sure.
For sure.
Yeah, like they need they need to scale
for that. Maybe all this new uh AI and
supercomputer shit, they'll come up with
some good shit. We're going to be
cyborgs by like by like 2030, we're
going to be uh getting two years younger
every year.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. I I don't want to
get older.
>> They want to live forever. You know what
I mean?
>> Yeah. I I I want that. I
>> I don't know if I want to live forever.
>> All right. Let's start with what's your
first name? Nathan.
>> Okay. I I got in my notes that Nathan is
the ring leader of this whole
enterprise.
>> Well, you know, uh I mean, if they would
have really got the people that should
they should have got or whoever, then it
was probably uh my mother-in-law that
would have been the ring leader cuz uh
Jeez, it gets worse already. We haven't
even started. It already gets worse.
These are true stories from the dark
side of the internet.
I'm Jack Reider.
This is Darknet Diaries.
[Music]
Nathan grew up in Oak Cliff, an area
near Dallas, Texas.
>> They So they they put me on Riddlin when
I was 6 years old, bro.
>> Ridling. Wow.
>> First day of kindergarten.
>> I tried to stab kid at school
>> cuz your head was fireworks. Wait, did
you say you tried to stab a kid at
school?
>> First day of kindergarten.
>> Oh man, you were that kind of kid?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MHMR for real.
Yeah.
And then of course the drugs didn't
help. When you're self-medicating,
you're thinking it's helping and it
ain't helping. [Music]
By the time he was 14, him and his
brother were really into video games.
Diablo II and World of Warcraft were his
favorites. And at the time, there was an
underground market where you could buy
and sell in-game items for real money.
So they'd play these games and try to
sell things within the game. Well, I was
like 14 and I I was selling Diablo I
items. I kept getting scammed on PayPal
with chargebacks. So, I just joined that
that side because they seemed to be
making more money cuz I was losing more.
And there's his origin story.
He got scammed and the scammer didn't
get in any trouble at all. He got away
clean with Nathan's money. He was like,
"All right, all right. I see how this
world is. Either you're getting scammed
or you're the scammer. Might as well be
the scammer." Like I I I knew right from
wrong from from when I was a kid, I
chose this I chose this path. My parents
didn't raise me like this. My parents
raised me to do right.
But when I got tired of getting scammed,
I just chose the path to the dark side.
But his origin story isn't as simple as
that. If you know Oak Cliff, you may
also know that that's a rough area of
town to grow up in.
>> So I was raised middle class, but I
lived in the hood. Like my parents made
probably about $100,000 a year. Okay?
you know, we had the nicest house in the
neighborhood and shit like that. But I
but I I was raised in the streets. So
>> yeah. So tell me what was shitty about
your neighborhood.
>> Uh you know, uh police chasing people
around the neighborhood, shooting up
people at 3:00 in the morning. You're
looking out your window and there's
three helicopters in the sky looking for
somebody and the spotlight silent on
your house. Shit like that. Gunshots. Uh
you know, seeing people get shot. Uh
>> yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I learn I
pick up all my bad habits at school.
>> I mean, that's where everybody learns
all the bad shit, right? Is at school
>> and then I got on the internet and then
I started picking up all the bad shit.
Once I started getting into wares and
programming and AOL back in '94, 95, 96,
97, 98.
>> Well, I think there's some sort of
reflection here of like it's like, hey,
look, if I'm going to be nice, people
are still going to rob me and beat me up
and all this sort of thing. So, I got to
toughen up. I gotta be a jerk to the
world because the world's a jerk to me.
>> That's why I turned into a monster.
>> I be like, seriously, like I just I just
did 13 years in prison and and I didn't
even know I could fight that good. I
mean, I look I got into a lot of fights
growing up where I grew up at, but I
didn't know I was a beast. People learn
a lot about themselves in prison, don't
they?
>> Yeah, you do. I mean, I'm still learning
things about I I just I just realized
what a couple of triggers I had that
were pissing me off and how easy they
were to change. So, I didn't get mad no
more. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's like self-discovery. Like, I'm just
now getting self-discovery cuz I cuz
I've been clouded by drugs my whole
life.
>> So, who were you living with at 14?
>> I was living with my mom and dad in
Oakliff, Dallas.
>> Your brother living together as well?
>> Yes. Yeah. Me and my little brother.
>> All right. Um I just dropped out of
school. dropped out.
>> Let me guess, let me guess. Um,
you were I want to I want to say dirt
bag, but it but you probably don't don't
call yourself a dirt bag. I'm trying to
guess what kind of person you are, but I
imagine just you got into drugs and just
screwed around and like, forget this.
I'm done with this. And you didn't
shower and you just played video games.
I don't know.
>> I was I was out pimping hoes.
>> What?
>> Yeah. When I s I go chasing pussy. Yeah,
>> it's crazy. Like like so I dropped out
and my mom bought me a computer from the
IT guy at work. It was a 486 pineium and
I I want to say it was a uh 144 baud
modem and uh I I've been stuck on a
computer ever since.
And this whole time, Nathan and his
little brother were watching how people
were making money in their area and
living in the hood. You could probably
guess what kind of stuff that they were
seeing. A lot of hustlers. And they were
set on trying to find ways to make money
themselves, but they were also super
into computers. So that's where they
focused on trying to make money. Okay.
So like my whole life, me and my little
brother, we always made money on the
internet uh through like video games,
through uh selling currency and stuff
like that for games and stuff and
whatnot. How do how do you do that?
>> For like selling in in-game currencies
for different video games. Like we used
to have a couple of Diablo II dukes and
we sold Diablo II items. Then we sold
WoW gold. Now we had a virus, a brute
kid virus that stole all accounts for
every uh gaming uh platform that they
had.
>> How were you getting the gold to sell?
>> Oh, we were buying it from them with
stolen PayPals and shit.
>> Oo. So we got to step back a second now.
>> Oh, that's a whole different story.
So you you got
>> since 94, you know, I was doing it back
in the BBS days.
>> Holy cow.
>> So he'd buy access to someone else's
PayPal account, buy some in-game gold
with that, and then he'd have the gold
in his video game account, and then he'd
sell that gold to some other player for
real cash, which he could put in his
pocket. In this way, he was using World
of Warcraft gold as sort of a
moneyaundering mechanism. And this led
him to chat rooms where people were
selling or trading credit card dumps.
This is where they get their hands on
some full credit card details so that
they could buy whatever they want with
it. And they just weren't hidden, bro.
Like, you know, it'd be like hit or
miss, like, you know, because they have
all them uh algorithms and shit running.
So, it would be hit or miss. And then
but then when when you when you get a
good one, it'll be a banger, you know?
So I was like, man. So then we were sat
down again. We're like, well, there's
got to be a better way because this just
ain't working. See, I've got to hand it
to these two boys. They were incredibly
persistent and diligent at finding ways
to make money. Sometimes it was legal,
sometimes it wasn't. They would study a
lot, learn how to do stuff, try it,
fail, and then pivot and try something
new. They were young teenagers, though,
so a lot of the stuff they were doing
was really dumb and not working. But
they knew there was loads of money to be
made online somewhere, scamming,
stealing. It was just a matter of trying
lots of stuff before finding where the
good stuff was. One idea was the one
that his mother-in-law came up with. He
was married in, I don't know, 2008ish,
and his wife worked at Walmart, and his
mother-in-law gave him an idea. When
someone goes to use a credit card to buy
stuff at Walmart, the cashier tries to
scan the card in the little machine. And
if it works, okay, great. The card is
charged and the person goes on their
way. But sometimes the magnetic stripe
gets screwed up. The card is broken or
something like that and it doesn't swipe
right. So if the cashier can't swipe the
card, then they look at the numbers on
the card and punch those numbers into
the cash register manually and charge
the card that way. Well, his
mother-in-law was like, "So what you
guys should do Nathan, you should bring
a totally broken card when my daughter
is on the register and put on the card a
bunch of credit card numbers for her to
try and she'll just keep punching in
random credit card numbers until you
guys find one that actually works. My
ex-wife was a manager at Walmart. So
when I tell them that my card I've
demagnetized a strip on a card so that
it would say they got to punch it in,
they can manually enter the number then
if it doesn't swipe. Then she come over
there and put in her little manager key
and I give her a blank card, like a
blank PVC card with just a mag strip on
the back of it. with a post-it note on
the front of it with like eight card
numbers, eight CVE, and eight expiration
dates. And we just sit there and run
that bitch and get whatever we get off
of them. Can you guess what he was
trying to buy with this? Stacks and
stacks of gift cards. If a random card
would work, then he'd buy as many gift
cards as he could on that bogus, madeup,
stolen credit card number.
>> I got $30,000 worth of gift cards in one
day from her Walmart.
You didn't actually spend any of the
gift cards, right?
>> Oh, no. We spent them all.
>> Why you spent Where'd you spend $30,000
in gift cards on?
>> Uh, well, you know, you It's half price
when you're selling it anyways. And when
you're selling quantities like that, you
got to go down about 40% anyways. So,
>> okay. So, you were reselling them and
then other people were spending it.
>> Yeah. >> God damn.
>> But I had sold one to my mom. So, she
cuz you do bill pay at Walmart. So, I
sold one to my mom and then they jam my
mom up, too.
My mom is retired and so she got her job
at Walmart when she retired.
>> So, what did your mom think of you
giving her a stolen gift card? Like,
it's I I imagine you've been in trouble
like a thousand times by this point, but
I I I should have been asking this like
what do your parents think of you?
>> I do. I want to
aggravate with deadly weapons.
>> Yeah, kindergarten. You were stabbing
someone and then aggravated assaults. I
imagine it's not news for your mom to
hear that you're doing crazy shit,
>> right?
>> Yeah. Okay. So, I I don't even know what
I don't even know.
>> Fireworks. Fireworks, bro. Fireworks.
>> At some point, the people at Walmart
caught them and they put them in a room
and interrogated them and told them,
"Don't ever come back here again." But
nothing ever came of that.
>> So I can talk about this now because the
statute of limitations ran out and they
accept my dick. They already know except
my dick. So >> okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Don't say anything that's going to
get you in trouble here.
>> Yeah. I make sure the statute of
limitations is ran out.
>> Yeah. And and and I should say that my
uh journalistic ethics or policy here is
that anything you tell me in the past,
I'm not going to tell anyone except for
whatever goes out publicly, right? But
if you tell me that you might like harm
someone in the future or commit some
crime in the future, then that puts me
in a moral pickle where I'm just like,
man, I could have I could have prevented
like
>> you have a moral obligation to do what's
right.
>> Yeah. I So don't tell don't get me
involved in any of this shit.
>> I'm going to go kill some pedals. You're
not going to tell me.
>> Don't tell me you what you're going to
do in the future. If I was you, if I was
going to and they were pedophiles, you
wouldn't tell them.
>> It's not morally right to go tell them
the magical group kills some pedophiles.
>> Well, have you heard like if you tell
someone your plan, they're they're part
of the conspiracy at that point just
because you tell them.
>> Did you know the feds give out oneperson
conspiracies?
What? I have I have a home girl that was
locked up in the fence. She was on a
oneperson conspiracy.
Oh my gosh. That's with phone
conversations and shit,
>> man. Fireworks is right. All right,
let's get back on track. Um, okay. So,
that plan didn't work and it was time
for them to try something new.
>> We started OG's crew on like gangster
hackers and shit. We had So, we had like
like the original 419 scammers from
Nigeria and shit. We had some of them in
our our crew. Like it's crazy like the
people that you meet online, bro, from
all different regions of the world and
just different cultures and and it's
it's amazing how uh but but you you get
on the internet and you know we're all
alike. Everybody's everybody you can be
whoever you want to be on the internet.
We fucking messaged this uh one uh China
dude
and they were they did like back then
they did like uh fake iPhones and shit
like that
and uh he had MSRS and uh skimmers and
embossers and tippers and all that shit.
>> This is equipment to steal credit cards
and and print credit cards. The MSR is a
magstripe reader writer. So if you get a
blank credit card, you could program it
with the MSR. They studied up on how all
this works and they thought, "Yeah, if
we get a skimmer, we could collect our
own credit cards. No need to buy dumps
from others." So, he was like, "All
right, let's buy a skimmer."
Bro, he had like a hell of a deal, bro.
It was like, "You got to buy 10 of them,
though." And they were like $250 a piece
back then. We saved up, got $2,500 and
ordered them. And I we got like two
couple MSRs and but we got mostly
skimmers though. Like I had gas pump
ones and everything, but they never
>> Okay. So, did you try putting those
skimmers on gas pumps and stuff?
>> Oh, yeah. We had them on gas pumps.
>> How? Okay. Okay. I've never talked with
anybody who's who's ran that. So, tell
me that tell me this process. Uh you was
gas pumps your number one place you put
them on or did you put them on other
things?
>> I mean, we had we had ones on ATM
machines too uh uh back in the days too.
But, uh the the problem was with them is
trying to get get the uh pin recorded,
right? like they didn't have the the uh
3D printers now where you could print
something that's looks just like it
that's uh that's paper thin that you can
put right over the top of it. You know,
they didn't have shit like that back
then.
>> So, it cost $200 for one skimmer
>> and that was cheap. That was cheap.
>> Okay.
>> They usually like 600 back then.
>> Okay. So, you So, yeah. Tell me tell me
about putting your first skimmer
>> particular order. That particular order
was the ones that are about the size of
a big lighter
>> and they're wireless.
>> Yeah.
>> And they Bluetooth on them.
>> Okay. So, tell me about putting your
first skimmer on a machine.
>> Well, there's a gas station right around
the corner from my house that I've been
going to my whole life. So, uh I mean I
used to like clean up the parking lot
and shit when I was a kid at at this gas
station. So, it's like uh they would
never fuck with me about anything
anyways.
So I would just put it in there and let
it sit for about a week.
>> Yeah. You So you're not even nervous
driving up to it like, "Okay, here we
go. We're going to put this in." You're
just like,
>> "Gubad got a
>> I already got the keys the for all the
gas pumps." Like I live in the hood, so
it's like you can get whatever you want
to get into anything.
>> Okay, so he leaves this skimmer on the
gas pump for a few days. And in case you
don't know what a skimmer is, it fits
right over the credit card reader on the
gas pump. So when you go to swipe your
card to buy some gas, his skimmer will
also read your card and save the data
from it. It's meant to look just like a
regular scanner on the gas pump so that
you don't notice it. And this is why
every time I go to swipe my card
anywhere, I first grab the reader and
wiggle it hard to see if it comes off
because then it would be a skimmer.
After a few days, he comes back and
pulls it off the pump and then he has to
learn how to get the data off it. Okay.
So, you can either unplug it and hook it
up to your uh computer USB and it just
downloads just opens it up and it's just
like a file or you can Bluetooth them.
Then the later ones have Bluetooth. You
just go Bluetooth to it. Download.
>> Okay. So, when you grabbed it and you
and you put connected to your computer,
what'd you find?
>> Track one and track two information. And
bro, I had the reason they caught me
with all them victims and 6,500 victims
from over 100 different banks is because
I was trying to crack the code, bro.
Crack the code. Yeah. The algorithm. I'm
trying to generate dumps.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you got enough
each one of them, I'd be able to figure
out the the sequence. You know what I
mean?
>> Yeah. Cuz it's just a 16-digit number
plus a CBV code. If you could if you
could figure out a way to find those
>> I mean they already got generators for
the numbers. So if you could just find
how they get out how they get the CVB
code, you'd be good.
>> Yeah. And that's what you were trying to
do.
>> That's why you need today right now
today.
>> So I I actually tried that same thing
when I was a teenager. Like hey this is
just a 16digit code. Let me just type in
gibberish into this form and see if I
could order shit. And of course none of
it worked. And I was like okay this is
beyond me.
>> Big one. Well, I just was doing it at
random trying to think like how how do
they know if this is a real card? I'm
just going to type in whatever
>> and they somehow knew. But
>> I always just use mom and dad's credit
card to find out and then I knew the
cards work like that and then so I just
started stealing everybody else. No off.
>> Yeah. Okay. So,
>> cards like that like that.
>> How many cards did you get from that gas
pump?
>> Oh, probably like uh 83 or something
like that if I remember correctly. Dang.
It
>> was like for three days. Four days. And
>> what' you do with those cards?
I sat on them. I didn't do nothing of
them. >> Why?
>> I was scared.
>> Yeah, they just weren't familiar enough
with how all this worked. The cards they
were punching in at Walmart were just
random numbers that they were trying.
And the dumps that they were buying,
well, they knew that those were already
stolen by someone else. But these cards
they were skimming themselves, that's
new to them. They never stole credit
cards before like this. So, they just
had to sit on them and let the heat cool
down for a little while. We're going to
take a quick ad break here, but stay
with us because wherever you think this
story is going, I promise you it gets
way crazier than that.
Okay, Chicken Express. That's that's
what this chapter is called. Chicken
Express. I've never been there, but I'm
looking at it on Google Maps, and uh
there's actually a bunch of them in
Texas. It's a drive-thru fast food
chicken joint. And during busy times,
they have two lanes for cars to line up
in. But in order to take the order from
that second lane, a cashier needs to
walk out to the car and take the order
and then also take their money so that
they can go into the building and charge
the credit card or get change for them.
Nathan's brother's girlfriend,
Elizabeth, got a job at Chicken Express
taking orders. And what he what he would
do was is uh he had this little
girlfriend and like you know
manipulation all that bullshit. So you
know how that goes.
>> Yeah. Convince any woman to do whatever
you want do just like they can convince
every man to do what they want him to
do. So
she was working at Chicken Express and
we're like okay. [Music]
They had the skimmers from before and
they were like you've got this great big
apron on. put the skimmer in your front
apron pocket and then when you take the
person's credit card into the building
to swipe it also swipe it in the skimmer
in your apron. The machine to charge the
card was inside the restaurant. So she
would take the card, leave and come back
which would give her ample opportunity
to stick it in that pocket and swipe it
through that skimmer cuz you it don't
matter which way you go on the skimmer
or anything. It's going to record it.
>> All right, I get it. They basically were
just grabbing a copy of everyone's
credit card that came through that
Chicken Express lane.
Her first day doing it, she got eight
cards. Not bad. But again, they're too
scared to use them. They've just stolen
eight cards. Take it easy. Don't do
anything with it. His brother was the
one who was grabbing the cards off of
Elizabeth's skimmer and keeping it on
his computer. He didn't want to share
them with Nathan.
>> Right. Well, uh, we were just going to
save him up for a while. But what we
really were planning was is to start
selling dumps. >> Okay.
>> Originally,
>> but I had other ideas in my head. My
little brother had his ideas. I had
mine.
>> Yeah. What was your brother's ideas?
>> Well, he he he didn't want to use them.
>> I wanted to use
>> Why? Okay. I This is what I don't
understand. Both of you have now spent
$2,500 to buy skimmers. You've both
gotten dozens of cards from it. And then
you're like, "Let's not use this for
anything." Well, because we didn't know
nothing about that side of it, you know
what I mean? Like the dump side of it.
We knew what track one, track two was,
and we knew how to put them on cards and
we knew all that stuff, but we didn't
know like none of the I guess we were
trying to do OPSSEAC on it. You know
what I'm saying? Like I figured out
>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, you're just being
hesitant
>> if we were to use these.
We we were dissecting it, hacking it,
>> trying to figure out how how how their
system work. We didn't know who used one
of these are going to come bust busting
down our door right there or not. We
didn't know.
>> That's right. Yeah.
>> So, we were more cautious about it.
>> Okay, fair enough. But she keeps
skimming them.
>> Yeah, she kept skimming them for months.
So, they just sat on them, not sure what
to do. just play it cool. Until one day,
Nathan decided to use one.
>> One day I used like two or three of like
we were stuck somewhere or something to
handle gas or something and cuz we had
an elaborate setup inside a vehicle to
where we can make cars on our goat.
We'll get to that sooner later. Okay.
But uh
we we we had no dumps or we couldn't get
none or we couldn't get no big uh back
there was Liberty Reserve. We had no
Liberty Reserve to buy any our web
money. Uh, so we decided to use a couple
of them and they were bangers. I'm
talking about bangers. Bangers. Bangers.
>> He was storing these cards in a Google
doc and he took a few and got some blank
credit cards and he used his MSR device
to write the credit card details to the
card. At first, he just tried to use it
on a gas pump and it worked. He got gas
with this card and then he went into a
store and tried buying stuff and he says
with just a few cards he was able to buy
$3,000 worth of stuff.
>> Like every one of them hit, bro. Every
one of them hit.
>> Of course they hit cuz they're cards you
stole. They're fresh,
>> right?
>> The ones you were buying the ones you
were buying online were sold to four
other people before they were sold to
you, right?
>> Yeah. I know you didn't know that, but
that's why they weren't working. Yours
were fresh.
>> Scammed. We probably got scammed eight
times before we ever got one that
worked.
>> That's right. Yeah.
>> You know, but yeah. So, we we didn't
know that they worked like that. So,
once we use them fresh ones, my brother
didn't want to use no more. And I'm
like, "Fuck him. I got to I'm going my
my wheels are spinning in my head." And
once I see the taste of money, it's like
I'm not worried about pussy. I'm not
worried about drugs. You ever been
addicted to making money?
>> Talk about being addicted to making
money because it's an addiction.
He had some of these cards from the
skimmers that he was putting around
town. But it was his brother who had the
most amount of cards from all the cards
his girlfriend Elizabeth was skimming at
Chicken Express, but his brother wasn't
sharing those cards with Nathan. And his
mind was racing with how to get those
from his brother.
>> I don't I don't know if you how much of
the federal paperwork you read or you
looked anything up, but there was like u
58 people they wanted to indict.
>> 58.
>> And they only got three of us. Well, I
got four of us, but only three of us.
>> Yeah. Well, you have to tell me when
those other 55 come in to play cuz we've
only listed three so far.
>> They've they've already been involved
with all that. We're already making car.
Well, that by that time, we're already
making cards. We're already deep in the
game by then. This is when we get the
fresh dumps and we're using the fresh
dumps that were scammed. That's what our
f started because of.
>> Okay. So, the the other 50 people were
involved before this.
>> Not necessarily all 50 of them. Like my
brother had his people and I had my
people. My brother had like four or five
people and then I had like 30 people.
>> Okay. And and these other people, what
were their roles?
>> Shoppers.
>> See, Nathan had a Fargo printer, which
is a classic printer used to make IDs.
Think membership cards or student IDs,
employee badges, but he was using it to
make credit cards, and he was making
them look really good. I'd print the
cards and then program the mag strip.
And that my my my my little key trick
was so they don't have to ask you for
ID, just put your fucking picture in the
corner of the fucking card, you know. So
So you had a guy that would that you
took a picture of him and you would
print it on the card to make it look
like a like a legitimate card as it
wasn't just a blank card. You were
printing on the card to make it look as
good as possible.
>> Yeah.
>> And then he would take it in the store
and like look at my picture's on the
card. How how can you say that's not me?
>> Exactly.
>> Wow. That's uh that's going the the
length there.
>> Like this was like in 2008 so or seven
and eight. So like nobody was doing it
like that back then. So he would go
around his neighborhood and hit up
people he thought might want the extra
cash and have them come over and then
he'd make a bunch of credit cards with
their photo on it and have them go out
and shop with stolen credit cards and
then bring back any of the stuff you buy
with it.
>> So what I would do since I'm providing
the cards, I fig I figured the cards
were if they're buying it dump and
they're making the card. So, I charge
$100 for a card basically, right? Okay.
It's what? So, say they bring me back
$3,000 worth of merchandise. I can only
sell it for half price. So, it's 1,500
out the gate. I'm taking 100 off for
each card
and I'm paying you cash the rest.
>> God damn. So, people
Yeah. Okay. That's a pretty good
incentive for I could see why a bunch of
people would want to get in on this in
Texas. Well, and and and plus, you know,
like I was in the hood, so everybody's
broke. Nobody has nice jobs and shit
like that. Their all their parents are
crackheads or whores or prostitutes or
pimps or the pushers. The pimps are the
pushers. Okay. So, all that was going
around for a while with crappy stolen
credit cards. A lot that didn't work.
But now Nathan is like, "Man, I'm
sitting on a bunch of banger cards. It's
time to start making some real money
with these." But his brother was the one
who had the bulk of them. and he wasn't
sharing.
>> So my brother didn't want to uh use him
and so I hacked my brother. Fuck. I mean
I hacked him and started using him.
>> Wait, you hacked your brother?
>> Yeah, why not?
>> You got something I want?
>> I mean,
>> how'd you do that?
>> I mean, I just got on his computer and
fucking and stole his f. I knew, you
know, we think it's my little brother,
you know, so obviously he's uh learned
from me, so he's going to think kind of
like I think. So it wasn't that hard to
find the text document and where was he
and I' I've seen him uh you know cuz it
was his girlfriend that was doing it,
right? >> Yeah.
>> So and then uh you know I I didn't go to
prison the first time till I was 30. So
I made a pretty good pile before I got
in trouble.
>> I did good for myself.
What age do you think your uh daughter
is going to be before she goes to prison
for the first time?
>> They're not going to prison.
One of them's graduated college. The
other one's in college. And my
16-year-old is fixing to graduate high
school with her nursing uh shit done uh
this year.
>> Do you have a better neighborhood that
they're living in compared to where you
grew up?
>> Uh yeah. I mean, this I mean it's
Dallas, bro. You know, it's a city. So,
I mean, it's like bad shit happens
everywhere.
>> You you Well, you you put it as like a
badge of honor. Like, man, I didn't go
to prison till I was over 30, so I did
pretty good.
>> Most people were either dead or or or in
prison by the time they're 30 in my
neighborhood. I grew up in Oak Cliff,
though. See, my my kids live in Dallas
with their mother.
>> Yeah.
>> She Garland. I mean, it's it's a little
better. I mean, but it's still the city,
you know, that's life.
>> What did What did your dad do? Like was
he a a carpenter or a musician or
>> installed fire systems and uh
restaurants and uh paint booths?
>> Did he ever break the law? Did he what
was his how at what age did he go to
prison?
>> He went to he went to jail uh when he
was a kid one time for running from the
police cuz he had a race car. He had a
Dodge Challenger.
>> Yeah. I mean, when you say the fast
life, it really does resonate with me
because there is everything's just
moving and changing and things are
happening and it feels uncomfortable
because it's like I'm not ready for
this, but man, everyone else is doing
it, so I better get ready for this cuz I
got no choice.
>> Like, it's like you're in a a tank full
of sharks. So, either you become a shark
or you get eaten.
>> Okay, we need to get back on track. Um,
all right. with with the stolen file
that he got from his brother. He had a
whole new chest of cards to start
cracking into. And when I think about
the supply chain here, it's pretty wild.
Elizabeth stole these cards from people
at Chicken Express and then she gave
them to her boyfriend. Actually, I think
uh they got married sometime in there as
well. So, she gave them to her husband.
Then Nathan steals the cards from him
and then he prints them onto cards and
gives them to shoppers and swipers. And
then they go out and they buy things
from the stores with them. And then they
sell those things back to Nathan for 30%
of its value. And then Nathan tries to
sell it for 50% of its value on the
streets. So Nathan was a lot of people's
hookups for just halfp price stuff. But
despite being complex and long, the
system was working. With Nathan working
with dozens of shoppers that were just
going around buying stuff all the time,
it was endless work for him. He was
making cards all day and reselling
things and buying stuff, but he was
making good money doing it all. At this
point, his brother realized that Nathan
stole the cards and was unhappy about
it, but was joining him on some of this
anyway.
>> He I mean, he had always joined. He He
said, "I was doing too much cuz I was
doing too much."
>> Anyway, he didn't want to miss out on
all the money that he could get from
these cards that his wife stole.
>> In order to be a good swiper, you got to
believe in your heart and in your mind
and your body that this is your credit
card. This is your money. If you don't,
you you won't do good. You'll be one of
them people that pays for the shit and
then they ask you for ID and you burn
off and you just burned yourself. It's
it's all about how you talk to people.
It's all about your finesse game really.
>> Yeah.
>> And who you pick to to check you out.
>> Did you teach people how to do that
game?
>> Yeah, you got Okay. Teach me. I want to
be a I want to be a good swiper.
>> Okay. So, I'm teaching you to be a
swiper. We'll give you a couple fire
like two or three cards, right?
>> Yep.
>> There you I'm going to tell you what to
go in there and get. Like I'd plan
people's routes out for them and
everything. Like cuz back then it was
Map Quest, right? I'd plan their whole
route out for them, tell them what
stores to go to and everything, bro. I'd
have it all w down and everything. So we
would go to the store and I I you would
come with me first and I'd show you how
I do it. I' never never look up at a
camera. Never never I always wear a hat.
So and I'm always looking down at my
phone. Always look So always be on your
phone. That was the rule number one.
always be on your phone because if
you're looking down at your phone,
you're always going to look down, right?
Yeah. So, you're not going to be looking
up to where a camera can get a clear
picture of your face. That's why I get
my federal document documents. Uh it
says two identified white males. Two
identified white males. There's always
me and my brother.
Yep. But it was under two identified
white males. That's all it was. Always
cover up all your tattoos.
>> Wear black. Wear a hat.
you know, things that are going to uh
uh, you know, make it not so obvious of
who you are, but without not making it
so obvious that you're hiding your
identity, right? >> Yep.
>> Uh, I like I like when I when I go get
gift cards, I'd like uh putting on some
coveralls and getting them all dirty and
shit. Look like I've been working on oil
rig all day and I'm coming here to get
$2500 gift cards for my workers cuz they
passed a safety test.
>> Yeah.
So then it doesn't look so obvious. Then
my brother's got covers with me. He's
with me. My card don't work, right?
Yeah. Bro, your money get on your card
yet? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My money got on
my car. Pay for my shit, bro. And as
soon as my shit gets on there, I'll pay
I'll pay you back. So we're He's at one
register and I'm at the next register.
We're working together at the same time
still, too. >> Yeah.
>> So we're banging them double, bro. Like
we like when I was doing that throw, I I
went to I went to all the way to
Missouri and back down and got like
$30,000 worth of gift cards. The dude
sold them uh they were like they're for
eBay and PayPal and he ended up buying a
vet with them uh off eBay.
>> So over time the shoppers and Swipers
and his network would be bringing him
tons of stuff. A lot was gift cards, but
sometimes it was TVs and laptops and
video game consoles, anything that would
have a high resale value. What I do is
I'd have a storage and I'd fill it up
and uh there's pictures of it in my
discovery packet. And I'd fill it up and
then I had a couple of Mexicans that are
cartel. They take all this shit back to
Mexico. Bro, they'll buy that shit for
cash cuz it's easier to transport that
shit across the border than it is cash.
You're not going to lose it getting
across the border. They'll be able to
drive right across. It's crazy how much
logistics went into his operation, but
the more cards he would get from
skimming, the more cards he could just
print and then give to shoppers and they
would be constantly bringing him stuff.
He had it all dialed in.
>> Bro, at the end of it, I was making like
$5,000 cash a day profit.
>> But of course, in the wake of all his
activity, it would mean that tons of
cars were reported stolen and purchases
were traced to certain locations and
authorities started putting pieces
together. Napa, Texas, bro. So basically
half the United States.
This article says, "This case is being
investigated by the Tyler Police
Department, US Secret Service, the Smith
County Sheriff's Office, the Henderson
County Sheriff's Office, the Athens
Police Department, the Ky City Police
Department, the Long View Police
Department, the Mosquite Police
Department, the Terrell Police
Department, the Waco Police Department,
the Corsican Police Department, the
Waxachi Police Department, the Vanzant
County Precinct for Constable, Walmart
Stores Associate Asset Protection, and
Southside bank.
>> Yeah, it's crazy, right?
>> It wasn't too hard for them to all look
at the cards for a common purchase
point, which would indicate where they
were likely stolen. And the cops saw
that Chicken Express and gas pumps were
where these cards were getting stolen
from. Eventually, this meant the cops
had an arrest warrant for Nathan. And it
didn't seem like they knew exactly what
he was up to, but they had a strong
suspicion that he was doing something
wrong. And for some reason, right around
this time, Nathan broke up with his
wife. They got a divorce and she was the
mother of his kids. She wasn't clean
from crime herself, though. She got
caught punching in those credit cards at
Walmart, remember? And the police gave
her a stern talking to for that one. But
for whatever reason, the two of them
broke up and we're done with that
relationship. I had I met this bad
bitch, bro. So, I had a bitch living at
the house with me and I met this bad
bitch, bro. So, I bring a bad bitch home
with me and kick my other bitch out the
night before, bro, that I got raided.
Bro, these So, I'm in I'm in there
making some cards this morning. It's
like six o'clock in the morning, bro.
And uh the dude comes over from across
the street to get some cards. Making
some cards. Five minutes later, bro,
I hear his bang on the door and they
kicking the door. I fucking throw the
laptop on the floor and I jump up. He's
in there. And I come in I come into the
living room. They fucking got a gun in
my goddamn daughter's head, bro. She's
like 5 years old, bro.
>> What?
>> And fucking they're telling me to get
down on the ground, bro. I said, "Get
that fucking gun out my daughter's face,
you fucking bitch." I'm I'm like I'm
outra, bro. like I'm already freaking
the fuck out.
>> His girlfriend and dad come home and
they see Nathan in handcuffs in the
front yard.
>> The Secret Service, they they start
asking me questions. I I'm like, I ain't
got nothing to say. And I'm like, well,
they found stolen motorcycles here,
drugs, uh everything, deleting credit
cards. Uh they raided the neighbor's
house across the street that snitched on
me. They found a fucking baby white uh
container with like 1,000 cards in it.
Uh they put them all on the news. They
have pictures of them all all out on a
table like they fucking you know how
they do they parade that shit around
like they did something good.
>> Yeah.
>> I I was just a modern day Robin Hood
bro.
That's all. Oscar from the rich.
>> You were not the Robin Hood. You weren't
giving You weren't giving anything to
the poor. You were the one making all
the money. You were like I want more
money. I want more money.
>> See, it looks like I made all the money
because I had so many people working for
me. But everybody else made just as much
money as I did.
>> So the cops continued to question him,
but he just kept quiet the whole time.
They told him, "Look, if you tell us the
names of everyone involved, then we'll
let you go." But he didn't say anything.
He didn't give up anyone's names. And
I'm not sure if they even knew he was
the ring leader of all this or not.
>> They were like, "Well, uh, we don't have
anything to charge you with today. All
we have is a search warrant. Uh, you'll
be receiving an indictment at a later
date." And left.
>> And you they they didn't take you. They
just left you. take nobody to jail. They
tried they were trying to take my
Escalade, but they couldn't take my
Escalade because it wasn't in my name.
>> Never put nothing in my name.
>> Thank God.
>> So, okay. So, what kind of cars did you
have at the time?
>> I had a Jaguar, a Lexus, and a uh Kadak
Escalade.
>> Yeah. And they didn't they couldn't take
any of the cars?
>> No. My Lexus was in my best friend's
name. The Escalade was in the cop's name
I bought it from, and my Jaguar is in my
the home boy's name.
>> So, you were you were buying cars with
this? What else were you pay doing with
the money?
>> Oh, we buy electronics. Uh jewelry. I
had lots of jewelry and lots of guns.
>> Mhm. Drugs.
>> Oh, yeah. Lots of drugs.
>> Yeah. I always had drug.
>> Yeah. >> What?
>> Of course. What? Sorry to ask.
>> When they took me out for Rivlin, what
else did I have to do besides
self-medicate?
>> Yeah, they were. They gave you drugs at
the beginning.
>> Methamphetamines when I was 6 years old.
What did they expect me to turn into?
The cops did take all the blank cards,
the gift cards, writers, and stuff that
looked illegal. I saw a picture of it.
They laid it all out on a table for the
media to see. One picture I counted,
over 200 gift cards just spread out all
over the table. And at the time, he was
still living with his parents, his mom
and dad, and his kids. His little
brother was living there, but his
brother got a sense that Nathan was
doing just too much and was going to
move out. And his brother was still mad
that he stole a file off his computer.
He's mad as fuck.
>> Even though his brother did some of this
activity himself, too, there was just
too much going on for him. It was
getting too hot. And his little brother
moved out just before the cops raided
the place.
>> Uh he he wasn't here, bro. He already
broke off cuz he said I was doing too
much. I mean, ultimately, we would have
got caught anyways. I just kind of put
us in the HO lane and got us there
quicker.
>> Yeah. But their past of punching in
credit cards at stores, buying dumps
online, and getting dozens of people to
help be shoppers, they were doomed from
that alone. the Chicken Express cards
that they were using like this, it just
sped up the process of them getting
caught.
>> So, after they raided us, I had $20,000
stash that they didn't find. It was in a
fucking uh one of them big flashlights
that has nine the big big square
batteries in it. Had five rolls of
$5,000 piece wrapped up rubber band in
there in my dad's room. Didn't search.
They didn't search my parents room at
all.
>> Okay. All right. So, what did you do
after that? You stopped cold turkey. You
became a good boy. No, I smashed the gas
on that bitch ass.
But the cops are already after me. They
already know what I'm doing. The fuck am
I going to stop for? I'm already in
trouble. Marty car.
>> I'm like,
>> oh my god.
>> I'm I'm like what? I'm an Aquarius for
one. So it's like I'm I'm all or
nothing. I'm I'm going to give it 110%
or I'm going to give it no percent.
Same thing I do with my relationships.
But it go all go back to the childhood
still like you were talking about
earlier. You know it's you apply you
apply what you learned to everything.
>> So what he knows is how to make money
and be invisible. So he grabs the
$20,000 and goes on the run. Probably
like 3 days later, I went to Dallas and
uh I got me I got me a I was staying at
hotels uh at first and then I got me a
spot little house uh that I was able to
rent somebody else's name electricity
and shit going on somebody else's name
all that and uh started making credit
cards there. My homeboy, my right-hand
man that lived with me, he sold drugs, I
sold credit cards. So I never had to buy
drugs anymore and he never had to buy
credit cards no more. Worked out. Now,
during that time, the police were also
looking for his brother, but he was
hiding out, too. But one day, his
brother made a mistake with one of the
stolen credit cards. Okay, I I have it
in my notes that he was at an arcade
messing around with quarters.
>> They got like $200 worth of quarters at
the fucking uh automated quarter machine
with a credit card.
>> With a stolen credit card?
>> Yeah.
>> And wh why was this suspicious at all?
Because people don't buy $200 worth of
quarters.
>> I mean, uh, not and put them in their
pocket and leave.
>> Well, how would you put $200 worth of
quarters in your pocket? It is. I guess
you're right.
>> I would have been playing video games.
>> So, he just goes into the arcade, grabs
$200 worth of quarters, and is like, I'm
good to see you.
And the mall worker calls the cops.
Yeah. And says, "This guy's weird. He
put he just bought $200 worth of coins
and he's leaving quarters."
>> He He went shopping, too. We had a whole
bunch of shit under the car outside the
mall. Had a whole bunch of shit under
the car that he had been shopping in
there all day, too.
>> Just follow the trail of quarters
through the mall. You'll catch them.
>> Like, shit, that's easy $200.
That's like the Mac that let you get out
per card.
>> So, this is how his brother got caught.
And since they caught him in the act,
they took him right to jail.
>> So, they ended up catching my brother
probably around November. And they got
arrested in Dallas. And I was I had
already knew a bondsman. So, I called
the bondsman. had the boss to go get him
right out and he got out.
>> His brother was out of jail, but not for
long. Stealing from the mall is one
thing, but running a huge stolen credit
card ring is another. So, the feds came
and arrested his brother and took him to
jail a week later.
>> Oh, they I couldn't bought him out the
feds. When the feds got him and the US
Marshall detainer was on him, he ain't
no bonding out the feds, bro. I had
$100,000 cash. I tried to get him out
and they told me I was fucked. So, I end
up paying $20,000 for a federal lawyer.
That was the biggest waste of money
ever. So, your brother's stuck in jail?
>> I can't get him out.
>> You can't get him out?
>> I mean, you know, this is my best
friend, you know.
>> My my first best friend was my sister.
She died when I was 13. She was killed
in a drunk driving accident.
>> Oh, no.
>> So, then my little brother became my
best friend, you know.
>> So, was she uh a drunk driver hit her?
>> Yeah.
>> Were you in the car, too?
>> No, it was her, her boyfriend, and then
two other people in the other vehicle.
All four of them were intoxicated.
Your sister was intoxicated, too?
>> Yeah, she was underage and she uh like I
got we won a $5 million lawsuit against
Dennis Rodman, bro, but it was under
LLC, so we don't get another money.
>> Wait, how does Dennis Rodman come into
this story?
>> Well, it's not into the story. It's into
the story my sister died. He owned the
bar that they were at drinking underage
and we investigator that went there. We
got video of it and shit and we went in
in court.
>> Okay. So, was it the car that your
sister was in that was the drunk driver
or was it the other car?
>> Both of them.
>> Oh, okay.
>> But everybody was drunk in both cars.
>> Holy cow. What a what a awful situation
that is to lose your sister at 13.
>> Yeah, it was that was that was probably
my first like real traumatic event in my
life. And that's when I started using
drugs. That's when I blamed God for
everything. That's why you know what I
mean? Like that's when my life really
took a turn for the worst.
>> Really?
Yeah. They hit you hard.
>> Yeah. I mean I I you know getting a
getting a a knock on the door at 4:00 in
the morning and two police officers
being there and you're you're 13 years
old and you're answering the door with
your mom and dad cuz somebody's beating
on the door at 4:00 in the morning and
then you hearing this.
So, it's like, uh, yeah,
our parents didn't know how to deal with
losing a kid, so how could they help us
cope with losing a sister?
>> Yeah. Right. They're probably losing
their mind.
>> They don't They're griefing. They They
can't help you, right? You're I didn't
do that.
>> Like, what are they going to do to tell
what are they going to do to help us?
>> So, you had to find your own way, which
is drugs,
>> right? That was my escape.
>> God damn. my escape from reality.
And then once I figured out the how to
escape from reality, I mean, you escape
from reality forever.
>> And then this time I've been sober like
five months.
>> You've been sober right now for the last
5 months. >> Yeah.
>> Oh, good for you. Wow, that's hard.
>> You know, it took me losing probably the
love of my life to uh figure that out.
>> Wait, hold on. We started this call. You
told me you had a bong in front of you.
>> I do. I just say I smoke weed.
[Laughter]
What are you smoking?
[Music] [Laughter]
>> I don't know what to believe with you.
>> Believe I just took a bong grip.
>> Sober for five months.
Yeah. >> Okay. So, um
so your brother's in jail. You're uh
you're stressed out on this. You're
hiding out from the cops.
Are are you missing from the cops or
like are they asking you to come to
court and you're like, "Nope, I'm not
coming.
>> I'm wanting." So, my brother's baby
mama, the uh Elizabeth, she's staying
with my cousin in another house in Oak
Cliff. And I get a call one day that she
was talking to the uh the Secret Service
trying they're trying to get her to turn
herself in. And I find out about it. I
go over there and tell her to get in the
car. She gets in the car. I tell her,
"Give me her phone. She gives me her
phone, take battery out, send her car
out, throw the shit out the window,
break that bitch and have it, throw it
out the window until I ever catch
talking cough again. I'mma kill her."
>> Damn. I kidnapped her.
>> Wait, you kidnapped Elizabeth?
>> Yeah. And and then she started getting
high on methamphetamines. And now she's
in jail still for methamphetamines. I
turned her out. Fucked her life off.
>> What?
>> You never got high before?
>> I got high for the first time. She's
been doing method since.
>> Oh my god. What? My brother got custody
of both his sons because of his uh He
can tell you all that stuff. But yeah,
he he end up getting custody of both of
his sons because his baby mama's piece
of shit. My baby mama's a piece of shit,
too. She got back with the guy that
molested my kids. Yeah, but you're the
one who turned her into a piece of shit
by getting her hooked on meth.
>> It's not my fault she stayed addicted.
>> What is this? This is You need your own
You need your own TV show. We Someone
needs to be uh following you with a
camera. >> My life, bro.
>> We'd be I'll be rich. We all be
>> like I tell people all the time, you
can't make this shit up.
>> I know. Like Jersey Shore would have
nothing on you. You would just be like,
and this is real life reality. All that
shit that they do is fake scripted shit.
Yeah.
>> So, the indictment comes out. It lists
Nathan, his brother, and his brother's
wife, Elizabeth, saying they were
stealing credit cards from Chicken
Express and then using those at Walmart.
Nathan was still wanted though, missing,
hiding out, and still making stolen
credit cards.
>> I had a a budgera, a witch lady come
from Mexico. >> A what?
>> A budgera. What the hell? It's like a
witch person, a witch doctor or
something.
No, that's they worshiped Santa Morte.
>> Why would you get this?
>> So they confronted my house.
>> How much did you pay them?
>> Like 200 bucks. So what happened was So
I was ended up burning that candle in my
house, one of the Mexican candles. And
it and it stopped burning. So my my
homeboy was still staying over there,
the cops that came to the house looking
for somebody, but it wasn't for me or
for him or anything. It was some wrong
house basically. But I panicked and so I
was never going back there. And somebody
called me and told me the candle was
going out. I go to get the candle. The
candle's going out. Never got the candle
lit again so she could channel her spell
and keep her spell of protection over
me. Well, didn't work. Uh I was on
fucking channel 45811 news. Uh most
wanted uh top 10 DFW most wanted by the
US Marshalss. And they're looking for me
in my Escalade. So, I dropped my
escalator off, got my Alexis,
and uh we went and got our OCS for Oak
Swipers. We had a little uh swiping clip
called Oak Swipers, and uh
we went and got our OCS tattoos, me, my
cousin, and uh one of my shoppers
tattoos. Oh, you're on the run from the
feds and you're like, "Guys, we need to
stop and get tattoos on the way out of
town." Yeah. Yeah. Oh, like oill
Swipers. >> Oak Cliff.
>> Oak Cliff Swipers.
>> They got a song about it called Oak
Cliff. That's my hood.
>> CLIFF. YEAH, THAT'S MY HOOD. PUT IT IN
HIS FACE. GET THAT SHIT UNDERSTOOD. THIS
AIN'T WHAT YOU WANT.
>> That needs to be the opening intro
music. Oh, that's my hood.
>> My main girlfriend shows up at the
tattoo parlor. So, I got both my bitches
there.
>> Me and my They didn't know about each
other.
>> Yeah, they knew about each. The side
bitch knew about they didn't.
>> The main bitch didn't like the side
bitch. Side bitch didn't give a fuck.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's how it
usually works.
>> My cousin telling me, "I got you cuz."
So, I make both my bitches sit in the
back seat. My cousin rides in the front
seat with me. We go to my cousin's
house. My side bitch goes in the house
with me cuz my my cousin and my main
bitch don't get along. They hate each
other.
Yeah. So, she's like, "You can't come to
my house."
So this bitch outside my Lexus. I'm in
the bed with my side bitch. My cousin's
house. I wake up the next morning making
some cars. Roll a blunt. Go start
looking for my cousin. Rolls blunt. She
goes, "Nathan, the cops are here." My
cousin, she had the doors open in the
front of the house and was cleaning and
shit. She seen the uh Secret Service car
pull up. There were just two Secret
Service agents originally with Gwen
Dallas patrol car uh when they came to
arrest me. And uh I don't know how they
got the anonymous tip there. I'm pretty
sure it was uh my main bitch's fucking
mama. I'm about 99.9% sure. And uh it's
all good. You know, I was going to get
caught misly anyway. So I'm glad it went
down like it did and I didn't get hurt
cuz I ran everybody out the house. My
cousin's Mexican. She got like three
kids at the house with her. I both my
bitches are out of the house. I ran
everybody out the house. Put on my body
armor. Got my AR-15. Loaded that bitch.
I had 10 30 round clips. I was ready for
war. I didn't know what was happening. I
thought I was going to prison for the
rest of my life, broke.
>> Wow.
>> So, I was ready to die.
>> So, you cleared everyone else out of the
house and then you loaded up body armor
and and uh armed yourself with all the
weapons you had. >> Yeah.
>> And you you flashed it out the windows
and the doors saying, "Hey, stay the
stay out."
>> My increen front porch, bro, on the
underneath the carport.
>> They went It had the screen on it
though, that you could see out, but
people couldn't see in, right?
>> Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, I know what you
mean. So, I was sitting there watching
them for 6 hours, bro. While they were
surrounding my house, the tank pulling
up in the front yard and putting a robot
on the porch, throwing a phone in
through the door, shooting flashbangs
and tear gas. I'm sitting there watching
these fucking idiots thinking they're
tear gas and flashbanging me and I'm
sitting out here on the front porch
watching these fucking idiots the whole
time, bro.
>> Oh, dang. Yeah, they didn't know you
were on the porch, bro. Picked them off,
bro. I mean, I want to get all of them.
But I could have picked them off, bro,
if I really wanted to.
They wouldn't even know. I mean, after
the first couple of shots, I mean, I
would have got a couple of them before
they got me.
>> Oh, yeah. They
>> I would drive ball like that. Not at
that point in my life.
>> I mean, this sounds really intense. Um,
were you scared? Were you Were you
tensed up? Were you high?
>> I was hyperventilating. I was uh cold
sweats. Like, it was it was it was uh
it was a an adrenaline rush and uh
sadness and uh it's over with all at the
same time. you know.
[Music]
So I I said, "Fuck this." I took some
hydrocodone on. I took some Xanax, went
in the house. Soon as I went in the
house, my eyes start burning like a
motherfucker, crying like a baby. So I
fucking put on some big ass glasses,
wrapped towel around my head, got it
wet, and went to the door. And I found
this phone that they threw in through
the window. And I pick up the phone.
This the hostage negotiator gets on the
phone. Tell him, "Fuck you, bitch. I
don't want to talk to you." Uh, put put
Secret Service agent reads on the phone.
He said, "Yes, sir." He got along. So,
M. Reed, these Dallas police are going
to kill me, bro. They They're They're
treating They Look at this. They got
this tank out here in the front yard.
They got the goddamn SWAT They got the
uh the command center band down at the
end of the block.
>> There was There was an actual tank in
your yard, bro. They had they had
snipers on the hospital across the
street. God damn.
>> Okay. What How did they know that you
were like armed and dangerous in there?
Were you you must have showed them like,
"Hey, I've got these weapons like
through the window or something and stay
the fuck back."
>> Like three rounds into the ceiling and
uh I mean I came to the door.
>> You shot the ceiling?
>> Yeah.
>> And they and and at the door they saw So
they came all the way to the door and
they saw you shooting the ceiling.
>> They were in the yard. They were in the
yard with in the tank. They had like
turn on the tank that they shoot tear
gas. Uh they're like
>> this is crazier than Waco Secrets. Like
they're very professional, bro. and and
they're very chill and laidback, bro.
Like I said, he said is I got since this
is since we don't know if there's
anybody else in the house, you have to
come out and surrender to them, but as
soon as you surrender to them, I'm going
to come and get you. I said, "That's
your word?" He said, "What do you what
are your demands?" So, I want to talk to
my kids and I want to smoke some
cigarettes and I just want to call my
parents and my kids, tell them I love
them and tell everybody I love. He's
like, "Will you come out peacefully? You
got my word? You got that?" I was like,
"That's I" was like, "That's your word
as a man." He's like, "That's my word as
a man." And uh Slav surrendered
peacefully after eight hours.
>> Holy mackerel. Okay.
>> I was for them. They were fixing to come
in. Was in like the next five minutes
they were they were they were they were
fixing to come in and get me. So I
probably would have been dead.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Um did they did they honor their word?
>> The Secret Service did as soon as I
didn't even get put in handcuffs by the
Dallas police. And he he when he
arrested me, he put zip ties on me and
put him in the front and he let me sit
in the front seat with him when we left.
When we drove off, I was in the front
seat with him and the other agent was
behind me
and he gave me a cell phone. He said,
"Call your kids.
We got down to the grass, you know,
where Kennedy got shot." Said, "You're
not going to try to run, are you?" I
said, "Nope." He said, "If you do, I'm
going to shoot you in the back. Let me
sit down on the rationale and smoke
three cigarettes before he took me to
Lerret. [Music]
>> Larret Justice Center is the main Dallas
County jail. And as you could guess, he
was facing tons and tons of charges at
this point. They were slapping him with
charges of things he didn't even do.
Like anytime that there was a stolen
credit card incident in Texas, he was
getting charged with that. There was
actually one of the computers that they
that uh had been purchased from from us.
They had end up finding somewhere or
something and it they found out it had
some uh uh child pornography on it and
uh but my lawyer had a a special
investigator and it it somebody had
bought the laptop before us and taken it
back to Walmart and then my shopper
purchased it.
>> Okay. Okay. So, at this point, your
brother's in jail. His ex-wife
Elizabeth's in jail. You're in jail.
>> Yep. And Corey David, this is in jail,
too.
>> Corey Davis. Let me see what I have on
him. So, this guy was an accomplice.
Um,
>> he was the one that was getting credit
cards that morning from me when we got
raided originally.
>> Yeah.
Across the street for me. Dude couldn't
feed his kids. him and his wife lost
their job and couldn't feed their kids,
pay their bills or nothing. So, I put
him on and then they tell me,
>> "Oh, he was your neighbor." Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So, he he was cashing for you. And
when the police got to him, he got
scared to he just got scared for his own
sake, man. He was like, I don't want to
go to prison forever. What do you want
to know? I That's the thing about
snitching is everyone says don't snitch,
no snitch. But then when it's like,
well, you got 40 years in prison or you
can snitch and then suddenly the the the
reality hits people.
>> Well, yeah. I got a little brother. I
call him my little brother cuz me and my
ex-wife raised him. It's her little
brother and uh he just got 5 years for
murder. But uh what I mean uh he there
was the dude that was with him did the
murder and my little brother didn't know
he was doing the murder.
>> I see.
>> And we got out and blew somebody's head
off on a motorcycle.
>> My little brother only got five years,
>> but he got he got like 15 years because
he had a whole bunch of other shit too.
>> But they knew he wasn't part of the
murder. So they only gave him five years
worth. Do have you ever um diagnosed
yourself for any uh uh mental situations
like ADHD or anything?
>> No.
>> Well, not diagnosed yourself, but have
you been like are you officially
anything ADHD or
>> Yeah, I have I have ADHD, dyslexia, um
intermittent explosive anger disorder,
uh uh PTSD, extreme PTSD, extreme
anxiety,
um did I say did I say bipolar one and
two yet?
>> No. Yeah, I got them. Oh, that's what
that's what I've been diagnosed with by
the doctor.
>> What What's some of your favorite music?
Musicians. >> Uh Tupac.
>> Yeah.
>> I listen to rock music like death metal.
Like heavy heavy he every he every he
every he every he every he every he
every he every he every he every heavy
death metal
>> you know like um uh you know uh
Bronstein Slipnot.
Okay. I was going to say Slipnot. Um
>> break shit music.
>> ICP.
Yeah. Yeah. I went to ICP concert.
They're fucking hilarious, bro.
>> Oh my gosh. I bet they are. Bunch of
clowns. >> Yeah.
>> Okay. Where were we? Oh, yeah. Uh
December 2010, Nathan, his brother, and
his brother's wife Elizabeth were all in
jail. And Nathan's brother, and
Elizabeth had kids. His son with
Elizabeth is with his grandparents, and
then his other son with his other wife
is with uh his birth mama. And my three
kids were with uh my baby mama.
But when I got arrested, my kids were
with my parents. When my when my wife
left me,
>> she left me with no car, no nothing, and
three kids.
Like she paints this whole story. She
got everybody pictured this whole story
>> that I'm the evil person. You abandoned
me and the kids.
>> Yeah. Um you know, I I I feel like I
abandoned them eventually anyways
because I went to prison for so long. So
I feel like I abandoned them too though.
And I did, you know, but at the time,
uh, when you have no means of making
money, I like when I when I was when I
was 17, I got my first computer job
working for Southwestern Bell, uh, doing
tech support for Pacific Bell and
Pacific and Southwestern Bell. I like I
used to work for Microsoft, bro. I used
to work for Vario web hosting and I I
worked in network operations center.
Like I could have had a good promising
computer career,
but I fucked it all off because of
drugs. I was doing cocaine. I was doing
cocaine. Lines of cocaine when I work
for Earthlink internet link.
>> Yeah, I remember Earthlink dial up.
>> Yeah, I was doing lines of cocaine on
the desk with the trainer.
>> The trainer from Seattle would come
down, come get me. We go to Oakliff, get
him some cocaine. He smoke cocaine on
top of a weed and tobacco pipe and I do
lines of cocaine on the table. He'd be
like, "I'm going to get Michael. We're
going to go work on some training
material."
We do all this on the clock.
Crazy motherfucker. Okay.
I don't think uh
>> I hacked Earth, bro. They they cracked
the fuck, bro. I was I I I crashed their
stock, bro. This is like
>> Yeah, I cracked their stock, bro. So,
like it was Earthlink Mind Springspring
merger, right? >> Yeah.
>> Sprint took over basically because they
own 80% of Earthlink. That's way back
when they had that short URL shortener
called CJB.net. Remember CJB?
>> No. It was a URL shortener. So I made
els sucks.cjb.net.
I work in network operation center, bro.
So I had I had access to the server room
and everything, you know, and uh so I I
got I got into the company, the
president of the company's emails and uh
him and the vice president and people on
the board and shit were talking about
how they fuck over their customers, how
fucking cuz their service was shit, bro.
It was trash. And uh it was just a
Anyway, so I posted these documents, all
these confidential information about how
they got hacked one time and they didn't
report it to nobody. But that back then
you didn't have to. Uh, so I I released
all this. I put put it on CJB.net
website. This little HTML thing with
some snippets from the uh emails. Yeah.
>> And fucking I started spamming fucking
MSN and Yahoo stock message boards and
they're fucking stock from like $32 down
to $18.
>> Damn. Cuz like you these this company
comes in here and they're now got all
these c got all these new employees and
now they're trying to reig on what they
said they were going to do. You know
what I'm saying? I'm always for the
little man. You know what I'm saying?
And I always stand up cuz little man,
but I never went back.
>> Yeah, I bet you didn't. Yeah,
man. We get off track fast of this one.
Um, all right. Yeah. Still, Nathan, his
brother, and Elizabeth are all in jail.
Uh, Elizabeth pleads guilty and his
brother pleads guilty. And the two boys
actually said that they coerced
Elizabeth into doing it. So, this meant
she got less time in jail. And so, she
ended up serving two years in jail. His
little brother got four years in prison.
And the last one to face trial was
Nathan.
>> I plead guilty. He spiritually g me
access to my drug and I went to prison.
>> He was sentenced to 4 years and 3 months
in prison. 3 months more than his
brother.
>> Yeah. I ended up doing all of it. My
brother ended up doing all of it, too.
>> And you know, I mean, I went to prison,
bro. I lived like a rockstar the whole
time I was in prison. I stayed high on
K2 and drinking moonshine.
>> The hell is K2? That's a vitamin.
>> No, K2 is is like synthetic marijuana.
>> Oh my god. Okay. So, you do your four
years, 3 months in prison, you get out
and then you're a good boy after that
and you've reformed. You self
rehabilitation in prison.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> Got out. I got out of the halfway house.
When I got out of the halfway house, I
got seven violations the first week I
was out for drugs.
Uh driving while intoxicated. Uh getting
caught in a stolen car. Fucking uh but
it wasn't a stolen car. It was a rental.
It just didn't didn't get taken back the
way it's supposed to. But being out of
district, not reporting it to my
probation officer, and she told me, "Mr.
Michael, do you want to go to jail? You
want to go back to jail or do you want
to go to uh then they put me on the code
shit, the color code shit, and I had to
go to intensive drug treatment program,
go one-on-one counseling for 6 months
straight."
>> Now, I think a lot of people might have
gotten out early because of good
behavior. It's surprising to me to that
you had to serve the entire sentence.
There was no good behavior for you.
I discharged my my my federal sentence
and my state sentence. I stayed to meet
them in close custody. I'm a
knucklehead.
>> Yeah, I got but I didn't I didn't listen
to the police in the world. Why am I
going to go to prison and start
listening to them?
>> To get out early and see your kids.
>> Yeah, but I was thinking about that. The
way they treat people in prison, bro, is
inhumane.
>> So why if they treat animal, why aren't
you going to act like an animal?
>> Okay.
So they leave me in a cage 20 23 hours a
day and they let me out an hour day.
What am I going to do when I get out for
that hour?
>> It's just like locking a dog in a cage
for 23 hours a day and letting him out.
>> All right. So you get out of prison and
how does it go wrong after that?
>> Well, I I got a girl pregnant and uh I
had like I was at the hotel and I bro I
was sitting there one day. I was like,
"Man,
I had three different businesses in in
three different rooms, not knowing what
to do >> in one hotel."
>> Yeah,
>> man. You how what's what's the secret to
your RZ? How are you attracting so many
of these girls?
>> What's crazy is, bro, like my brother
always ask me the same thing. He's like,
"How do you get so much pussy? How do
you get so I don't know, bro? I don't go
chasing pussy, bro. It's just like I I
always That's what I always tell people.
I pose and get chose. I just chill and
be still, bro. It comes to me. It's
crazy. posing good shows.
I'm going to try that. I'll see if it
works.
>> I mean, it works. Like, uh, me and my
girlfriend broke up four months ago and
I've been she's been dragging me for
four months and, uh, I I finally cut her
completely off the about a week ago and,
uh, I got two chicks already, like uh,
45 and I'm still upgrading.
Okay. So, you're in a hotel with three
three different ladies in the hotel and
you're looking at it like, "Man, how am
I supposed to juggle this? Keep going."
Yeah. So, it's like,
you know, and then uh the guy that was
down here at the lake with us, uh he was
originally involved in our fucking uh
fed case, but he didn't tell. He was one
of the ones that didn't tell. Stayed
stiff and uh starts fucking with him
again. And then me and him are out in
fucking Fort Worth. We're going to
Chili's cuz they had them kiosk where
you just swipe right at the fucking uh
table.
Yeah. So, despite serving four years in
prison, Nathan went right back to
carding, getting stolen credit cards,
printing them on blank cards, and using
them to buy stuff in the stores himself.
He was doing all his old tricks, wearing
disguises and buying gift cards from
Home Depot and Walmart. Oh, yeah. And
using them to get free food at Chili
since the ordering system is right there
at the table. Um, you could just keep
trying different cards until you find
one that actually works and pays for
your food without the server getting
suspicious. Right. So, he's riding in
the car with this guy and they're on
their way to get food at Chili's.
>> Like, we're we're turning uh on to get
onto the highway and he runs a red light
with three cops parked at the red light
right across street. The dude dude ended
up being a snitch, right? Uh my
brother's got a couple pinning felonies
uh because of him right now. And my
brother kept fucking with the dude and I
told my brother the whole time that he
snitch and snitch because everybody
everybody, you know, people talk.
>> You said he was a stiff guy though and
he didn't though. But he end up he's not
stiff now.
>> Well, he was just he was just in another
state in like Virginia or somewhere and
he was in there for like three felonies
like Larsson and a whole bunch of other
shit. And he said they gave him time
served in county for felonies. Where the
fuck do they do that at?
>> Oh yeah. County is not a felony place.
>> You can't you can't you can't serve your
time. You can't serve felony time in
county. >> No.
>> I don't think anywhere. I mean I stud
>> I can imagine like maybe a few weeks
before they transfer you to the right
place but not your whole duration. You
might get time credited towards your
Philly, but you're not going to do your
Philly time there.
>> I agree with you.
>> And then then he went to Alabama
back here.
>> Okay. So, was this guy high or stoned
when he was driving around like that?
>> Yeah, of course we were. I was I was
hauling GHB and uh I don't He was
hauling fucking Mass and GHB probably.
>> All right. So, you're leaving Chili's.
You're speeding through Chili.
>> Going to Chili's going through red
lights right past cop cars. Keep going.
I pulls right pull in right behind us.
Turn the turn lights on. He pulls right
over. Don't even fucking drive 5 ft. He
pull slams on the brake. Pulls over.
I I I got rid of all my cars, bro. The
cops didn't catch me with no car. They
can catch me with no plastic.
>> You threw out the window?
>> No, I put them down the side the side of
the window. Got into the door.
>> Oh, smart. Yeah. Right in the glass.
Okay.
>> Yep. Yep. They didn't catch me no cards.
They didn't catch me no gift cards.
I got rid of everything. They caught
them. They caught my codependence with
everything. Uh, I got eight years. They
got 10 years deferred. Uh, probation.
Probation has never been optioned for
me. They've never given me probation or
offered me probation.
>> Wait, so when the car got pulled over,
is that when you went to jail or you got
off?
>> Yeah, I went to jail that night.
>> Well, how how because you didn't have
the cards? How' they How' they know it
was you?
>> The cops got the receipts and they were
just the car's packed full of shit.
>> Yeah. you uh name
>> that was just what the last place we
went was Home Depot and so we just got
all this shit and they end up opening up
a box, a security camera box. We got the
MSR in it and shit and they just they
they they run my name and they see what
I was in federal prison for and they're
like, "What's the access to device
fraud?"
>> So they always ask me every time I get
pulled over,
>> what's the access to wife fraud? You
ever lose your credit card or it gets
stolen? [Music]
It's interesting how vivid Nathan's
memories are in those moments right
before being arrested. That must be like
a flashbold moment for a lot of people,
you know, like you remember it so
perfectly clear. It's almost like those
are the last moments of freedom that his
brain holds on to or maybe he replays
those moments again and again in his
head to try to think what he could have
done differently.
Anyway, the cops found swiping equipment
in the car and quickly put the pieces
together that he was still due in
swiping. So, they arrested him and took
him to jail again. This time, he plead
guilty and they sentenced him to 8 years
in prison. And the main crime they were
saying he did is that he swiped a stolen
card at Home Depot and bought $2,200
worth of gift cards. Okay. So, this is
the second time you go to prison.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Eight years they put you in for for
$2,200. Like there's that's a lot for
just such a small amount.
>> I mean, but they know I was doing more
than that though.
>> So what they I mean what
>> it's not like Texas Texas the I mean you
know how fucked up the legal system is.
It's fucked up in every state. I'm sure
>> it is. But um what were they saying your
charges were? I mean it wasn't just the
2200
>> swiping for 2200. Uh they they charged
me with engaging or criminal activity.
>> Mhm. But
>> so it was your felony.
>> The f the first one was they were saying
you did a million dollars in damage.
What were they saying here?
>> They didn't say nothing. They just said
$2,200 was shit from fucking
>> I It's just so hard that there's eight
years in prison for $2,200 stolen.
>> Tell me about it. But because they
didn't charge me see like if I would
have got caught in Dallas, bro, they
would have charged me with uh credit
card fraud and abuse. It would have been
a state jail felony. maximum two years.
>> Mhm. But since I was out there and I got
caught with two other people, they're
doing this shit in Texas now and they're
charging people with basically
conspiracy in the state and it's it's
crazy. At that time, it's not a dollar
amount anymore. See, so like it goes up
and higher towards how much the dollar
amount it is, but once you're charged,
once you get the enhancement of engaging
or criminal activity,
it's enhanced from a second degree
felony to a first degree felony. And
then therefore time.
>> Geez, man. Okay.
>> They're they're trying to give me 15,
bro. >> 15.
>> My homeboy paid $10,000 for a lawyer for
me in the state. And uh they they uh
they came down to eight. So I took the
eight
>> and you went to prison for eight years.
>> Yeah.
>> And self-reformed while there and got
out and now you're a good boy.
>> Now I'm a good boy.
>> Okay, we made it.
Is it true? Are you doing good now?
>> Everything I do now is ethical.
>> Okay. So that that's
>> but you know it took all all that and
all the trauma that I went through and
what happened to my kids while I was in
prison and my dad died while I was in
prison and everything for me to finally
wake up.
>> What happens to your dad?
>> My dad died when I was in prison. Bro,
it was horrible. like two worst fears
that was something happened to my kids
and I'm not being there when I when I
was in prison and then something
happened to one of my parents while I
was in prison and something happened to
my kids while I was in prison and my dad
died while I was in prison. My two worst
fears came to fruition while I was in
prison the second time.
>> Um how did your dad die?
>> Uh he had a heart attack I think. I
mean, he was in the hospital and like
his blood was septic and shit. Like, he
had a bad heart. Like, he had uh uh
health conditions for like 15 years.
Pretty much his heart, he wouldn't quit
eating salt, bro.
>> That's awful, man. I'm sorry you went
through that.
>> Yeah, that that that uh you know, uh he
always promised he'd be there and shit.
At the end of the day, I took peace in
it because I knew my dad loved me and I
know he knows I loved him. So, I I found
peace in it in that. But that I never
have to ask the questions that you
always want to ask your dad when you get
older, you know? >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. >> Questions.
>> Okay. Um, god damn.
>> It's crazy. And that that just a
snippet. That's just a that's just a one
uh moment. That's just a blip on the
radar.
I was mature at a lot your older ages
and women like I don't I don't think it
finally clicked for me until I was about
38. So,
did you uh serve all eight years?
>> Yeah.
>> And I went back for violation after that
and they fucking held me for another
fucking four months. Cocks
>> for violation. Yeah. Um so that's uh 4
years plus 8 years. That's 12 12 years.
>> Like with the extra time that I had to
do for the violation, all the extra days
and shit is closer. I was pretty much
about 13 years.
>> Yeah. 13 years. And I was thinking you
have three kids now and two of those
were there for the first one and one was
there for the second, right? So that's
>> Well, no, all three of them were there.
My my my 16-year-old that's here with me
today, she was there. She was like one
year and two months when I got arrested
and went to the feds. I miss her whole
>> I missed her whole life.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That
>> the middle one was three when I first
got locked up and the oldest one was six
when I first got locked up. All my kids
are three years apart.
>> Mhm. Yeah. That's a huge gap to not see
that. That must be really hard.
>> That's the That's the hardest part right
there. That's the hardest part cuz you
can't ever get time back.
>> And now they're grown and doing their
own thing. So you don't get the time
that you want. You know what I mean?
>> Well, yeah. Yeah. They're on their own
schedule now.
>> Yeah. But uh you know, I'm I'm in their
life and uh we have good uh
relationships. Uh at least I do for I do
I have good relationships with the
youngest and the oldest for sure. The
middle one uh she still has a lot of
resentment. She's uh but she'll get
there. >> Okay.
>> You know, their their mother painted a
bad picture of me. Uh she made me look
like the monster and uh what it was is
we were both young and stupid at the end
of the day, you know, and we both made
bad decisions. Neither one of us were
perfect. That's the reality of it. And
uh but I take responsibility for all of
it because I'm the man, you know what I
mean? Okay. Yeah. I mean, the the mom
was part of that Walmart scam anyway, so
I know that she's not the focused on
each other and all that shit. You know
>> what a crazy story.
>> I know, man. Like fucking And you know,
all I want to do now is like when we
were kids, real growing up, we didn't
have nobody to look up to.
>> Yeah.
>> We didn't have hackers that fucking been
doing this shit their whole lives to
look up to because it started with us.
You telling me you're going to be the
you want to be someone that people look
up to?
>> I want I want to be the one that helps
save the world and I want to help kids.
>> I want to help children, bro. I want to
help kids.
>> You I make the world a better place. I'm
I'm going come out with the first
jailbreak for the fucking robots, bro.
You better buy my shit.
I'm start preaching on the jailbreak for
robots right now.
>> Okay. You're going to save us from the
robots that are going to save us from
the digital world. That could be a fair
redemption.
>> When the robots turn on us and the
computers turn on us, who's going to
save us? It's not going to be fucking
Joe down the street that's working on
your car.
>> Going to be cook at McDonald's that's
making your burger.
>> It's going to be
>> It's Well, not just me. It's going to be
all of us.
>> Okay. Well, I I I will buy your shit
when it comes
>> the robots could just take over and just
kill us all.
>> No. No. You got to save us now. I'm I'm
hoping you're going to do it.
>> AI AI. We have a 50% chance to survive
AI and we have a 50% chance to survive
robots. >> Okay.
I think if you've survived all this,
then you've got a fair chance of
surviving the rest of whatever's coming.
I don't know how you made it this far.
>> I mean, cuz I wake up every day with a
smile on my face, no matter what
happened the day before.
>> How many times did you come close to
dying in your life?
>> I was in a coma when I first got out. I
had overdosed and I by the time I got to
the hospital I was uh breathing at 30%.
Uh so they put me in a uh induced coma
and when I tried waking up I went crazy
on them and tried fighting them all.
>> Yeah. I I couldn't feel my legs so I set
up in my bed and told them to lie. I
thought I was having flashbacks. I was
in prison. I ripped my restraints off
and everything. They they had to have
like eight people hold me down and hit
me with like three uh uh uh things to
put me to sleep and then fucking they
got off of me and they started tying me
back up and I woke back up on their
bitch ass.
>> Jesus. Okay, so that was one time being
close to death. Any other times?
>> Uh when I was probably about 15 huffing
some uh uh air from from from uh you
know I had a little airsoft gun
>> that I I mean uh to uh paint model cars
with. >> Yeah.
And uh I was choking the air and my dad
woke me up and I was choking on my
throat up. My bed was covered in throw
up and I was laying on my back. I'd have
died if my dad didn't wake up and come
get me.
>> Yeah. See, this is what I mean. Like
you've survived all these things. Not
only that, but all the shootings in your
neighborhood and the probably stabbings
in prison.
>> Miss and stab. Prison was the worst.
Like when we first got to Leworth, there
was fixing to be a riot between the
Sangos and the whites and uh over TV.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I made there's probably
about at least we made probably about
200 steaks that night.
>> Look like vampire steaks, but uh knives.
>> Jeez. And now your your arrival. And
they're like, "You got to join a side.
Come on. We're fixing for war." Jesus
Christ. What a way to join.
>> There you get pushed over. Like it's
just like in the world. You're in a
shark full of tanks. You gonna be a
guppy or you gonna become a shark.
>> Oh man. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm
saying is if you've survived all that,
then I think that you're good for the
rest of your life. You've you've uh
cashed in all your lucky chips 3 years
now. So my recidivism rate of going back
to prison is pretty fucking low.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And your your survival rate
is pretty high. You've gone through the
worst things of your life and you're
still doing good. I mean, you're still
alive.
>> I'm not doing good. I'm still
struggling. You know what I'm saying?
But I'm free. I got my freedom. I got my
health and uh I got I got the people
that love me around me. You know what
I'm saying? So that's my blue. That's my
my zen.
>> I say we leave it as that. walking it
walking off into the sunset um with your
loved ones near you.
>> It was good talking to you.
>> All right, man. Thanks for sharing your
story. >> Bye.
>> Have a good one. Bye.
[Music]
>> Thank you so much to Nathan Michael for
sharing this story with us. What a wild
life he's lived. and he's only 45 now,
so he's got a great big life ahead of
him. And I'm certain it'll be dramaree
from here on out. I've got your next
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Darknet Diaries. [Music]