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A dear, dear friend let me know

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about this study that was happening

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at Johns Hopkins and NYU,

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looking for religious

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professionals that would be

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interested in being a part of this

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study.

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Scientists were curious

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about whether psychedelics

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could help a range

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of different faith leaders become

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more expansive

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in their sense of

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who and what the divine is.

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My initial reaction was, what are

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you talking about?

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That just sounds off.

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I had never even heard the word

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psychedelics at that stage.

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And so my friend very

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patiently and very

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enthusiastically engaged me in

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conversations about psychedelics.

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One of the most powerful things that

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he could say to me is that I've

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done this and I've benefited.

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I was unwell for a really

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long time.

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This medicine has helped him

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heal to this extent?

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Okay, let's talk.

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When she first heard about this

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study, Sughra Ahmed was the

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associate dean for religious life at

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Stanford University.

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She was a religious professional and

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had been for many years.

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She had a graduate degree in Islamic

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studies and was the first woman

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to chair the Islamic Society of

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Britain back in the UK.

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She led prayer, she preached,

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and she gave advice.

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And that translates essentially as

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Ustadha. Ustadha is an Arabic

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Urdu Farsi word

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that means teacher.

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So for me, being Ustadha was about

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being able to lead not

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just Muslim communities on campus

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at Stanford, but also other

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faith communities.

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Sughra counseled students through

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their big religious questions.

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And after her friend mentioned

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this study, she suddenly

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found herself grappling with some

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pretty big questions of her own.

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What even is this? Is this something
that is

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legitimate for us?

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Is this is something that could

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hurt?

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In the Quran and in other

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texts, things like alcohol

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are clearly forbidden.

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And the spirit in this context is

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that I don't want you to

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be coming to worship or

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prayer or be in conversation with me

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with your mind veiled.

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So you're not thinking clearly.

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So how can you be in worship?

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But did her Muslim faith also

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forbid the use of psychedelics?

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I'm somebody who believes in God.

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I have always believed in God,

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I've been raised in a Muslim

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household, in a muslim community.

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And, should she, a devoutly

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religious woman who had never

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touched an illegal drug in her life,

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should she travel to Johns Hopkins

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University to take psilocybin for

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scientific research?

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Welcome to season two of Altered

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States.

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Over the next 10 episodes, we're

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going to explore two distinct camps

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in the world of psychedelics.

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On one side, there's the realm of

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spiritualists, mystical experiences

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and psychedelic churches.

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And on the other side are

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scientists, clinical trials,

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animal studies, and

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psychopharmacologists.

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These two worlds are often far

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apart, and even at odds.

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But sometimes they're not.

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Because when they get all tangled up

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together, that's when things get

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really interesting.

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Think of this as the science versus

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religion season.

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But know that there's so much more

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in between.

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I'm Arielle Duhaime-Ross.

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This is Altered States.

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When I talked to somebody who's very

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learned when it comes to Islam, or

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somebody who I hold with great

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respect, we had long conversations

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about plant-based medicine and

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psychedelics.

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And through those conversations,

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we talked about the fact that even

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though things like alcohol are

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clearly forbidden, psychedelics

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unveil the mind.

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And so it doesn't fall in the same

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category.

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And so I signed up, took a gazillion

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psychometric tests to make sure that

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I qualified.

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And that led me into

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Johns Hopkins in Baltimore and

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on that sofa with a blindfold

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across my eyes.

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At around the same time that Sughra

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was taking those tests,

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journalist Michael Pollan heard

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about this study from some of the

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researchers involved.

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The idea was to give a group

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of religious leaders, rabbis,

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priests, ministers, pastors,

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monks, a high dose of

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psilocybin to kind

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of see what would happen.

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And as soon as I heard about it, I

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was like, this is something I want

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to write about.

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I mean, look, religion and

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science have been oil and water

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since the time of Galileo, right?

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I mean people purporting to offer

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a scientific version of reality

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were burned at the stake by the

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church.

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But the psychedelic realm

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is a place where the two get mixed

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up in really interesting ways.

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The study was published in May 2025.

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Michael interviewed some of the

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religious leaders and wrote about it

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for the New Yorker.

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This is the story of that

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study and what happened to Sughra

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and some of the other participants

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in the years after they

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tripped for the very first

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time.

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So Michael, welcome back.

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Thank you for joining us on Altered

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States.

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Thank you, Arielle.

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Very good to be back.

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Okay, let's start from the

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beginning. Can you tell me about

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this study?

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Basically, they were trying to use

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science to study religion and

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spirituality and this

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phenomenon called the mystical

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experience.

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This is an experience, there's a

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long literature recounting it.

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It's a big part of the history of

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religion.

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And basically it involves

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revelation, some sense of

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contact with the divine,

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a transcendence of self and

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time and space,

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and a sense of merging with

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something larger than yourselves.

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And this has been very much at the

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center of psychedelic research since

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the very beginning.

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Roland Griffiths, who really

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spearheaded the revival of

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psychedelics research beginning

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around 2000,

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got into it because he had

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a mystical experience that

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he said was way, way, way beyond

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the kind of materialist

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understanding I could explain to my

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scientist colleagues.

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And he was one of the researchers

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involved in this study.

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Yes, he was the lead researcher

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until his death in October 2023.

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And one of the things that it's

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important to know about this study

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too is it's building on a history.

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There was something called the Good

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Friday Experiment done in 1962

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at Marsh Chapel on

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the BU campus in Boston,

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where Walter Pahnkey, who was

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a graduate student working with

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Timothy Leary, had 20

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divinity students all in a

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Protestant denomination.

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And he gave 10 of them

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psilocybin and he gave ten of them

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a placebo.

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And they all sat in the basement

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of Marsh Chapel listening to

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a Good Friday sermon being piped

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in from above.

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So one of the producers on this show

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actually obtained an audio recording

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of the sermon that the study

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participants listened to that day.

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I haven't heard it yet, but I wanted

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us to listen to it together.

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This is Reverend Howard

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Thurman.

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There was

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no glory on the hills

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that day.

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Only dark shame

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and three

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stark crosses

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rearing

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at the sky.

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And then darkness fell.

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I love it.

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Very dramatic.

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Very evocative.

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It's got a little bit of

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a, I don't know, like vampiric

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kind of quality to it for me,

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but yeah, that's wow.

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Imagine listening to that while

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tripping on psilocybin.

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That would be very powerful.

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But that study left a lot to

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be desired in terms of controls.

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Even though it had a placebo, they

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were in this very religious setting.

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And it was a little loosey goosey

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like a lot of Timothy Leary

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supervised experiments were in

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that time.

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But it's canonical within the world

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of psychedelic research.

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And eight out

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of the 10 who had taken

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psilocybin reported a powerful.

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Religious experience and

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one of the things this study at

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Hopkins and NYU is was

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an effort to improve on that, to

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replicate it with more rigor.

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It was going to be larger to

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diversify the religious traditions

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represented and get as wide

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a representation as possible.

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I think they were curious to find

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out if religious leaders might have

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any particular insight to

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share on the mystical experience.

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Whether a mystical experience

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induced by psilocybin

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was comparable to the sort of

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mystical experience that

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people in religion often have.

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And perhaps would

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they shed light on an idea

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that's very common in the

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psychedelic community but certainly

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wasn't articulated by the

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researchers.

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That there is some sort of common

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core to all religions,

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a perennial philosophy, which

290
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,779
is a term that Aldous Huxley used.

291
00:09:26,780 --> 00:09:28,499
He believed that at bottom you could

292
00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:30,319
trace all religious traditions

293
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,419
to a mystical experience that had

294
00:09:32,420 --> 00:09:33,999
similar qualities.

295
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,819
But yes, this was an effort to

296
00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:37,639
use science to explore religion

297
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,679
and in a way use religion

298
00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:41,179
to explore science.

299
00:09:41,180 --> 00:09:42,939
In other words, use the insights of

300
00:09:42,940 --> 00:09:44,938
these religious professionals

301
00:09:44,939 --> 00:09:46,759
to learn something about

302
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,279
the psychedelic experience.

303
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,319
So it was deliciously messy

304
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,259
that way.

305
00:09:51,260 --> 00:09:53,539
That's kind of what drew me

306
00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:54,939
to writing about it.

307
00:09:54,940 --> 00:09:56,819
And at its core, we're

308
00:09:56,820 --> 00:09:59,099
talking about a study where you

309
00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:00,539
have scientists who are asking

310
00:10:00,540 --> 00:10:02,479
religious leaders to come in

311
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,399
and take psilocybin and

312
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,059
then tell them about their

313
00:10:06,060 --> 00:10:06,649
experiences.

314
00:10:06,650 --> 00:10:08,289
Yeah, basically they were prepared

315
00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:09,729
by two guides.

316
00:10:09,730 --> 00:10:11,749
The two guides sat with them during

317
00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:13,634
their journeys, which lasted,

318
00:10:13,635 --> 00:10:15,469
you know, four to six or

319
00:10:15,470 --> 00:10:16,549
eight hours.

320
00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:18,489
And then afterwards, they filled out

321
00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:20,669
reams of questionnaires and

322
00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:22,509
came back to get debriefed on what

323
00:10:22,510 --> 00:10:24,299
they had experienced.

324
00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,059
Okay, so what kind of religious

325
00:10:26,060 --> 00:10:28,389
leaders were they able to recruit?

326
00:10:28,390 --> 00:10:30,229
Well, they were going for as wide a

327
00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:32,249
range as possible, but they didn't

328
00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:34,409
succeed entirely in getting

329
00:10:34,410 --> 00:10:35,289
everybody.

330
00:10:35,290 --> 00:10:36,709
If you look at the demographics of

331
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:38,449
the group, you find that it's

332
00:10:38,450 --> 00:10:41,169
heavily Christian, 76%.

333
00:10:41,170 --> 00:10:42,449
Many different Christian

334
00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:44,549
denominations, 17%

335
00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:45,669
were Jewish.

336
00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:47,769
They only had one Muslim and

337
00:10:47,770 --> 00:10:49,109
one Buddhist.

338
00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:51,509
There was no Hindu, for example.

339
00:10:51,510 --> 00:10:53,429
So as hard as they tried

340
00:10:53,430 --> 00:10:56,279
to make it broadly representative.

341
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,199
It definitely skewed very

342
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,379
Western and very white and

343
00:11:00,380 --> 00:11:01,399
very male.

344
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,339
31% were female.

345
00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:05,199
And the requirement was you had to

346
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,119
be psychedelically naive,

347
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,999
and you had have a congregation.

348
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,739
You had to a leader of some kind,

349
00:11:10,740 --> 00:11:12,639
not just somebody who was devout.

350
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,219
They really wanted to look at people

351
00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:15,419
who were leaders, because one of the

352
00:11:15,420 --> 00:11:16,979
things they wanted to explore was

353
00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:19,059
whether this experience would

354
00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:20,839
help with burnout.

355
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,939
And burnout is a real problem,

356
00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:24,859
I learned, among clergy of all

357
00:11:24,860 --> 00:11:26,719
kinds. You're dealing with the dying

358
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:27,699
all the time.

359
00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:29,119
You're in charge of this

360
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:29,959
institution.

361
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,019
You have declining attendance and

362
00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:33,559
membership. You have financial

363
00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:35,419
problems. It's all on you,

364
00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:38,519
and you have to be available 24-7.

365
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,119
So they wanted people who were

366
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,299
dealing with that to see if the

367
00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:44,299
experience might rekindle

368
00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:46,259
their faith and

369
00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:48,209
interest in their vocation.

370
00:11:48,210 --> 00:11:50,069
So I interviewed at least a

371
00:11:50,070 --> 00:11:51,789
dozen of the participants in the

372
00:11:51,790 --> 00:11:53,649
study. And they were just the

373
00:11:53,650 --> 00:11:55,069
easiest people to talk to.

374
00:11:55,070 --> 00:11:56,149
But they had also had this

375
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:57,569
incredible experience that they were

376
00:11:57,570 --> 00:11:59,509
very eager to talk about and had

377
00:11:59,510 --> 00:12:01,169
not had an opportunity to do.

378
00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:05,189
I talked to Zac Kemenetz,

379
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:06,190
a rabbi at Berkeley.

380
00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:08,889
I had not previously used

381
00:12:08,890 --> 00:12:10,609
psychedelics in the past.

382
00:12:10,610 --> 00:12:12,829
I was high on God

383
00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:15,109
and Jewish ritual and

384
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:17,819
spirituality all these years.

385
00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:19,659
I talked to Hunt Priest, who is

386
00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:21,479
an Episcopal priest.

387
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,079
I was reading a magazine called The

388
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,119
Christian Century.

389
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,459
I was just flipping through it.

390
00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:27,439
And I saw an ad for the study at

391
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,199
Hopkins. And I immediately thought,

392
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,019
there's no way I'll get in,

393
00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:32,399
because who wouldn't want to be in

394
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,249
this?

395
00:12:33,250 --> 00:12:35,309
And I talked to Sughra Ahmed,

396
00:12:35,310 --> 00:12:37,049
who is a Muslim, the only Muslim in

397
00:12:37,050 --> 00:12:38,239
the study.

398
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:39,819
The clinicians were actually ready

399
00:12:39,820 --> 00:12:41,419
to close the study, thinking, well,

400
00:12:41,420 --> 00:12:42,539
we're not really going to get

401
00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:44,259
anybody different to the cohort that

402
00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:45,679
we've already got. So we're going to

403
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:47,079
be able to keep the study open for

404
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,159
much longer.

405
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,579
And then along I came.

406
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:52,359
Did some of the participants tell

407
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,239
you why they

408
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,219
ultimately decided to say yes

409
00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:57,309
to this?

410
00:12:57,310 --> 00:12:59,169
Yeah, in some cases,

411
00:12:59,170 --> 00:13:00,609
because they had never had a

412
00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:01,829
mystical experience.

413
00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:03,389
And they shared some of the

414
00:13:03,390 --> 00:13:05,369
questions of the researchers as

415
00:13:05,370 --> 00:13:07,489
to what they might learn about

416
00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:08,349
God.

417
00:13:08,350 --> 00:13:09,949
So I think they were kind of

418
00:13:09,950 --> 00:13:10,969
spiritually hungry.

419
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:13,089
I had read

420
00:13:13,090 --> 00:13:15,009
that mystical experiences

421
00:13:15,010 --> 00:13:17,269
could potentially help people

422
00:13:17,270 --> 00:13:19,269
feel better or be

423
00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:22,149
closer to divinity.

424
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:24,069
And that was at that time kind

425
00:13:24,070 --> 00:13:26,309
of exactly what I needed,

426
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:28,879
some spiritual resuscitation.

427
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,439
Then you had people who really did

428
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,159
feel burned out, people who felt

429
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,099
something was missing in their life

430
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:35,919
or in their work.

431
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,839
I was sort of in a place of I

432
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,859
felt stuck in my work in some ways.

433
00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:41,799
I was busy in my church life.

434
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,119
And there was a lot of work to do

435
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,959
there. And I was tired.

436
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:46,460
I was dealing with some anxiety.

437
00:13:47,780 --> 00:13:49,609
And some people were just curious.

438
00:13:49,610 --> 00:13:51,069
I was convinced that this is

439
00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:53,149
something that not only is

440
00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:54,309
intriguing, but actually it's

441
00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:55,669
really, really important to bring

442
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:57,069
this into the Muslim communities

443
00:13:57,070 --> 00:13:59,149
that I connect with for my

444
00:13:59,150 --> 00:14:00,669
people to be at the table.

445
00:14:00,670 --> 00:14:02,349
And when I say my people, I mean

446
00:14:02,350 --> 00:14:04,929
women, women of color, Muslim women.

447
00:14:04,930 --> 00:14:06,849
It was important for me to

448
00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:09,009
also ensure that when it

449
00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:11,169
came to this kind of experiment

450
00:14:11,170 --> 00:14:12,309
and it was going to be published

451
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:14,269
later, that I'm able to take some

452
00:14:14,270 --> 00:14:16,269
of that back to my community

453
00:14:16,270 --> 00:14:17,909
and say we were part of this.

454
00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:18,910
Now, where do we go?

455
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:24,159
And the fact it was legal, by the

456
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,379
way, matters a lot to people.

457
00:14:26,380 --> 00:14:28,259
I mean, for many people, the

458
00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:30,119
opportunity to have a psychedelic

459
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,259
experience in the hands of

460
00:14:32,260 --> 00:14:34,119
really skilled guides in

461
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,339
a university setting with

462
00:14:36,340 --> 00:14:38,319
legal permission is quite an

463
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:39,320
opportunity.

464
00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:42,019
Although it was illegal, it still

465
00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:43,619
carried some reputational risks.

466
00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:45,219
So some people wanted to remain

467
00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:46,220
anonymous.

468
00:14:46,860 --> 00:14:48,039
I was pretty concerned about

469
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,119
anonymity.

470
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:50,519
These people don't look like me.

471
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:51,759
They don't know what my people are

472
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:52,779
like. They don't know what our
culture

473
00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:54,359
is like. When they say anonymous,

474
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:55,239
what does it really mean?

475
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:56,919
Is it really anonymous?

476
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,819
Or is my data going to sit in a

477
00:14:58,820 --> 00:15:00,479
box file on that dusty shelf over

478
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:01,699
there like all those other box

479
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:02,539
files?

480
00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:03,819
I had all these things in my

481
00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:05,399
imagination and the only way I was

482
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,599
going to get through them was by

483
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,019
asking questions.

484
00:15:08,020 --> 00:15:09,499
Because you've got to remember, my

485
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:11,499
family don't I'm doing this.

486
00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:12,800
My friends don't, I'm not doing

487
00:15:12,801 --> 00:15:14,079
this, apart from the friend that

488
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,199
actually recommended the study to

489
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,379
me. I felt really vulnerable

490
00:15:17,380 --> 00:15:19,519
and I felt like a bit of a maverick.

491
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,039
I knew I wanted to do this.

492
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,859
I knew it was important, but I was

493
00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:23,860
also alone.

494
00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:26,479
And then on top of that, there's

495
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,799
nobody in this team that I

496
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,519
can look at and think, okay, they

497
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,259
might understand what I might be

498
00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:33,139
feeling right now.

499
00:15:33,140 --> 00:15:34,959
They might understand the

500
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,379
enormity of what I'm undertaking

501
00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:37,959
without even discussing it with

502
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:38,960
family and friends.

503
00:15:43,410 --> 00:15:45,069
For someone like Sughra, there was

504
00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:46,009
real risk here.

505
00:15:46,010 --> 00:15:47,569
She wasn't sure how her community

506
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:48,829
would react.

507
00:15:48,830 --> 00:15:51,209
So in advance of her session day,

508
00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:52,569
she wanted to make sure she would

509
00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:54,239
really be supported.

510
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,159
So I asked a gazillion questions

511
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,259
to the most senior scientists and

512
00:15:58,260 --> 00:15:59,319
the people who are in charge of the

513
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,879
whole thing, all the way to the

514
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:01,919
people who are going to be sitting

515
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,179
with me when I would be

516
00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:05,999
probably my most vulnerable

517
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,379
in life.

518
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:09,779
If you're recruiting for

519
00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:12,179
a diverse range of people,

520
00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:14,599
religious leaders no less, then

521
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,339
the set and setting that you have

522
00:16:16,340 --> 00:16:19,249
built would have incorporated,

523
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:21,169
all of the possible religious

524
00:16:21,170 --> 00:16:22,849
leaders that might have volunteered

525
00:16:22,850 --> 00:16:24,229
that you'd be curious to sort of

526
00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:25,949
have in your research, including

527
00:16:25,950 --> 00:16:27,049
Muslims.

528
00:16:27,050 --> 00:16:28,469
I didn't find that that was the

529
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:29,289
case.

530
00:16:29,290 --> 00:16:31,849
It did give me reason to be nervous.

531
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:33,109
You know, I'm concerned.

532
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:35,029
You're asking me to go into

533
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:36,529
a place that I've never been before.

534
00:16:36,530 --> 00:16:38,749
I don't know what's going to happen.

535
00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:40,669
And at a very, very basic

536
00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:42,629
level, I might use language that is

537
00:16:42,630 --> 00:16:44,329
not English, right?

538
00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:45,769
It might be Arabic, it might be

539
00:16:45,770 --> 00:16:47,689
Urdu. It would be alien

540
00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:49,459
to your ears, perhaps.

541
00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:51,159
I had to say to them, so when I do

542
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,279
say words that you do not

543
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:53,319
understand, if you could just write

544
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,279
down some letters and I could

545
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,679
try and figure it out later.

546
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,499
And I had go into this thing

547
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,159
knowing that I had two gorgeous

548
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,460
human beings next to me.

549
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:07,379
But, they didn't really understand

550
00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:09,259
where I was from.

551
00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:10,899
They didn't really understand who I

552
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,078
was.

553
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:13,618
I wanted them to feel like I really

554
00:17:13,619 --> 00:17:15,118
made a fuss.

555
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:16,939
As though I have said and done

556
00:17:16,940 --> 00:17:18,799
everything that I possibly can

557
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,759
to fight for

558
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,679
people like me or

559
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,379
people who might not exactly be like

560
00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:27,098
me, but are non-white middle-class

561
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,039
kind of folks so that

562
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,979
next time they wouldn't

563
00:17:30,980 --> 00:17:31,980
just rinse and repeat.

564
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:34,769
So what happens next?

565
00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:36,369
What happens next is they're handed

566
00:17:36,370 --> 00:17:38,269
a little pill and they swallow

567
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:40,109
that and they lie down and put

568
00:17:40,110 --> 00:17:42,029
on eye shades and wait

569
00:17:42,030 --> 00:17:43,230
for their journey to begin.

570
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:49,049
I soon started to

571
00:17:49,050 --> 00:17:51,309
feel kind of like a

572
00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:53,669
opening fuzziness in

573
00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:55,669
my forearms and

574
00:17:55,670 --> 00:17:56,670
in my stomach.

575
00:17:57,770 --> 00:17:59,469
I remember thinking, oh my God, this

576
00:17:59,470 --> 00:18:00,689
is big.

577
00:18:00,690 --> 00:18:01,909
I don't know what this is, but this

578
00:18:01,910 --> 00:18:02,910
is big.

579
00:18:04,409 --> 00:18:05,650
More after the break.

580
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:14,919
Welcome back, This Is Altered

581
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:15,759
States.

582
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,639
Before the break, Sughra Ahmed,

583
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,539
a devout Muslim leader, took a

584
00:18:19,540 --> 00:18:21,419
risk and decided to take psilocybin

585
00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:23,279
as part of a scientific study.

586
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,159
She was one of 29 religious leaders

587
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,439
who participated in this experiment,

588
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,819
many of whom spoke about their

589
00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:30,239
experiences with the journalist

590
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:31,240
Michael Pollan.

591
00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:36,969
So Michael, can you talk a little

592
00:18:36,970 --> 00:18:38,329
bit more about what was so

593
00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:40,049
interesting to you about this study

594
00:18:40,050 --> 00:18:42,239
and its focus on religious leaders?

595
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,219
Yeah, there were a bunch of things.

596
00:18:44,220 --> 00:18:46,159
There's a whole strain of thinking

597
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,259
in psychedelic research

598
00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:50,639
that there is something special

599
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,629
and spiritual

600
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:54,219
about the experience.

601
00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:56,139
And to have trained religious

602
00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:58,519
leaders have that experience

603
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,359
that they would have some sort

604
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,319
of nuanced understanding of it

605
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:03,959
and particularly of the mystical

606
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,799
experience, which is such

607
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,679
a common thread through so much

608
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,439
of the history of religion.

609
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:10,899
One of the questions I was curious

610
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:12,729
about is would all

611
00:19:12,730 --> 00:19:15,269
these different religious leaders,

612
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:17,289
the imagery of their trip,

613
00:19:17,290 --> 00:19:19,029
would it be similar to one another

614
00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:20,769
or really distinct?

615
00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:22,949
Would it reflect their own faith and

616
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:24,669
the imagery that church or

617
00:19:24,670 --> 00:19:25,789
denomination?

618
00:19:25,790 --> 00:19:27,489
Or would it point to some common

619
00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:29,449
core at the heart of

620
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:30,549
all religion?

621
00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:31,929
And that's an idea, it's somewhat

622
00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:33,969
controversial idea, but it's held by

623
00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:35,029
many people.

624
00:19:35,030 --> 00:19:36,789
And that the common core of all

625
00:19:36,790 --> 00:19:38,709
religions is this thing called

626
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:41,329
the mystical experience.

627
00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:43,149
How do the researchers go

628
00:19:43,150 --> 00:19:45,029
about measuring a mystical

629
00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:46,259
experience?

630
00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:47,739
Well, with a questionnaire, of

631
00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:48,639
course.

632
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,379
It's called the mystical experience

633
00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:51,539
questionnaire.

634
00:19:51,540 --> 00:19:54,139
And you fill it out and you answer,

635
00:19:54,140 --> 00:19:55,679
"have you had an experience that has

636
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,539
these qualities?" And

637
00:19:57,540 --> 00:19:58,779
first of all, it was Walter Pahnkey

638
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:00,359
in the Good Friday Experiment.

639
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:01,839
He wrote the first mystical

640
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,699
experience questionnaire, which

641
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:05,619
was an attempt to break down

642
00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:07,739
the elements of that experience and

643
00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:10,039
see how people measured their

644
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,299
experience.

645
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:13,119
He based it on William James,

646
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:14,939
who offered the first sort of quasi

647
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:16,879
scientific analysis of what it

648
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:17,839
consists of.

649
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,499
And it has such things like

650
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:21,319
reverence and awe,

651
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,699
a loss of a sense of time,

652
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:25,599
joy or wellbeing,

653
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,239
no space boundaries, spaces

654
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,439
transcended, a sense timelessness.

655
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,279
And I think very importantly,

656
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,199
a sense merging with

657
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,799
something larger than yourself.

658
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,239
It could be the universe, it could

659
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,569
be nature, and it could God.

660
00:20:39,570 --> 00:20:40,570
And that unitive consciousness

661
00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:43,589
as it's called is a real

662
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:45,389
hallmark of the mystical experience

663
00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:47,269
and really accounts for

664
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:49,089
I think the divine encounters that

665
00:20:49,090 --> 00:20:50,409
many of the people in the study

666
00:20:50,410 --> 00:20:51,129
reported.

667
00:20:51,130 --> 00:20:52,729
Got it, okay.

668
00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:54,089
So that's what the researchers were

669
00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:56,449
going for. They wanted to see if

670
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:58,129
these religious leaders would have

671
00:20:58,130 --> 00:21:00,109
mystical experiences as judged

672
00:21:00,110 --> 00:21:01,989
by their questionnaires and

673
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:03,569
whether they would judge them to be

674
00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:04,529
authentic.

675
00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:06,279
I think that was really key.

676
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,579
They thought that these people would

677
00:21:07,580 --> 00:21:09,479
be in a position to help answer

678
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:10,859
a question that has kind of

679
00:21:10,860 --> 00:21:12,599
bedeviled psychedelic research for a

680
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,539
couple of decades, which is,

681
00:21:14,540 --> 00:21:15,919
is the mystical experience that

682
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,199
people report a mere drug

683
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,159
effect or is it the

684
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,160
real deal?

685
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,959
So they go into these specially

686
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,839
designed rooms and

687
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,559
Sughra, I recall, mentioned that she

688
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:28,560
prayed beforehand.

689
00:21:29,570 --> 00:21:31,629
I took permission from the

690
00:21:31,630 --> 00:21:33,869
team about offering

691
00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:35,729
some prayers of my own.

692
00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:37,549
It was incredibly important to

693
00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:39,369
me that I was able to bow down

694
00:21:39,370 --> 00:21:41,169
and prostrate to God and seek

695
00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:43,269
guidance and seek comfort and

696
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:45,789
seek connection before

697
00:21:45,790 --> 00:21:47,390
I took the medicine.

698
00:21:48,670 --> 00:21:50,969
The medicine was offered to me in

699
00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:53,209
what looked like a goblet

700
00:21:53,210 --> 00:21:55,789
of times of old and

701
00:21:55,790 --> 00:21:56,880
it was offered me with incredible

702
00:21:58,660 --> 00:22:00,319
reverence and respect for the

703
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,159
medicine and for the moment,

704
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,919
which took me by surprise, actually,

705
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,819
that in a clinical trial, there was

706
00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:08,379
this reverence for the human

707
00:22:08,380 --> 00:22:09,779
condition and what the human being

708
00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:11,079
is about to experience.

709
00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:15,919
I ingested the medicine with

710
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,979
some water and then I felt like

711
00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:20,259
it got stuck in my throat

712
00:22:20,260 --> 00:22:22,459
and there's a psychological aspect

713
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:23,239
to that, right?

714
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,459
Like there's nervousness.

715
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:25,959
You know, I was with these strangers

716
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,819
and I'd ingested something that

717
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:28,839
was going to give me a really

718
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:29,840
powerful experience.

719
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:34,069
Going into this, I had no

720
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:36,009
aspirations to have an encounter

721
00:22:36,010 --> 00:22:37,809
with the divine because in my

722
00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:39,629
tradition, I feel like

723
00:22:39,630 --> 00:22:41,469
you really need to polish the heart

724
00:22:41,470 --> 00:22:43,209
and the soul to be able to start

725
00:22:43,210 --> 00:22:45,469
even dreaming, hoping

726
00:22:45,470 --> 00:22:47,449
of a dream, for

727
00:22:47,450 --> 00:22:49,449
example, with the Prophet Muhammad,

728
00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:50,729
peace be upon him, or any of the

729
00:22:50,730 --> 00:22:52,349
prophets, peace upon them all.

730
00:22:52,350 --> 00:22:54,809
But in my actual journey,

731
00:22:54,810 --> 00:22:56,669
I felt I encountered the divine and

732
00:22:56,670 --> 00:22:58,449
how I know that I encountered the

733
00:22:58,450 --> 00:23:00,409
divine is very difficult to

734
00:23:00,410 --> 00:23:01,929
explain. I just knew.

735
00:23:03,390 --> 00:23:04,890
I simply knew.

736
00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:08,130
And I trust that knowing.

737
00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:17,039
First of all, everybody that I

738
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,899
spoke to, and I think the

739
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:20,999
vast majority of participants did

740
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,039
have a divine encounter.

741
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,899
And in all cases, God was

742
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:26,819
not a figure, not embodied

743
00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:28,879
in any way, but it was a presence

744
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,099
that was vividly felt.

745
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:33,259
In the journey, I felt

746
00:23:33,260 --> 00:23:35,979
the divine present

747
00:23:35,980 --> 00:23:38,239
right behind me.

748
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,780
Like right behind my shoulder.

749
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,859
I know in the Quran, God,

750
00:23:42,860 --> 00:23:44,699
Allah says that I

751
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:46,419
am closer to you than your jugular

752
00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:47,420
vein.

753
00:23:48,020 --> 00:23:50,299
That moment reminded me

754
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:51,400
of that verse.

755
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:54,599
And that verse is very, very dear to

756
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:55,899
me.

757
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:57,929
I felt like if I just sort of

758
00:23:57,930 --> 00:23:59,889
leaned a little to the left

759
00:23:59,890 --> 00:24:01,469
and maybe a little back, that I

760
00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:03,329
could probably brush with it

761
00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:04,330
in some way.

762
00:24:05,710 --> 00:24:06,949
I was very calm.

763
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:08,809
It wasn't a stupendously

764
00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:10,109
exceptional moment.

765
00:24:10,110 --> 00:24:12,189
It just felt powerful

766
00:24:12,190 --> 00:24:14,169
and calm all at

767
00:24:14,170 --> 00:24:15,170
the same time.

768
00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:23,669
It was beyond the way in which

769
00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:26,229
we categorize things,

770
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:28,129
people, it was above

771
00:24:28,130 --> 00:24:30,109
all of this language business that

772
00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:32,609
we have between us.

773
00:24:32,610 --> 00:24:34,649
You cannot reduce it to that.

774
00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:41,849
There's often sort of a knee-jerk

775
00:24:41,850 --> 00:24:43,629
reaction, I think, in faith

776
00:24:43,630 --> 00:24:44,746
communities, that, "What?

777
00:24:44,747 --> 00:24:46,289
You're gonna pop a pill and then

778
00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:48,229
meet God?" And

779
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:49,809
I think that sounds glib because it

780
00:24:49,810 --> 00:24:51,509
is glib, and I still very firmly

781
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:52,349
believe that.

782
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:53,729
So for me, that moment, that

783
00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:55,329
presence of knowing that the divine

784
00:24:55,330 --> 00:24:57,449
is right, right,

785
00:24:57,450 --> 00:24:59,349
really, really really close, just

786
00:24:59,350 --> 00:25:01,549
really close felt

787
00:25:01,550 --> 00:25:03,909
like I had been given a

788
00:25:03,910 --> 00:25:05,749
gift that I am

789
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:07,710
just in complete awe of.

790
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,439
By the time I sat down to write the

791
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,159
article, Sughra was willing to let

792
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,179
me use her name, but I interviewed

793
00:25:16,180 --> 00:25:18,079
other people who weren't, and

794
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,299
one was an Eastern Orthodox

795
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,279
priest who, in the piece, I call

796
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,280
Father Gregory.

797
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,579
He was really

798
00:25:27,580 --> 00:25:28,519
burnt out.

799
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,379
He was real frustrated

800
00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:31,979
with church politics and the

801
00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:33,819
bureaucracy, and

802
00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:35,599
this made him really angry.

803
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,719
And he said he'd become this very

804
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,919
bitter person that people avoided

805
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,459
in his church.

806
00:25:41,460 --> 00:25:43,779
And he had taken a vow of celibacy

807
00:25:43,780 --> 00:25:45,699
also and was struggling

808
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:47,019
with that.

809
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:49,139
And he just described himself as

810
00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:51,319
in this spiraling down

811
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,559
of anger and bitterness and

812
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:54,740
pornography, he said.

813
00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:59,299
He imagined himself laid

814
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:01,239
out in Christ's tomb

815
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,379
on this stone

816
00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:05,219
slab, covered in

817
00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:06,659
rose petals.

818
00:26:06,660 --> 00:26:08,979
And he was dying, but

819
00:26:08,980 --> 00:26:10,859
he felt that there

820
00:26:10,860 --> 00:26:12,559
was love in him that was gonna

821
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,880
survive his death.

822
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:17,119
And this love kind of

823
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,259
manifested itself as this

824
00:26:19,260 --> 00:26:21,199
transcendent force.

825
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,939
And he said at one point, he was

826
00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:24,339
making love to love.

827
00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:28,069
And he said that this was a very

828
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:29,749
uncomfortable moment for a celibate

829
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:31,629
priest, because there clearly was

830
00:26:31,630 --> 00:26:33,509
an erotic dimension.

831
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:35,329
And he was so

832
00:26:35,330 --> 00:26:37,289
enthralled by this experience that

833
00:26:37,290 --> 00:26:39,569
even though he had to pee, he

834
00:26:39,570 --> 00:26:41,469
would not get up and just kind

835
00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:42,470
of released his bladder.

836
00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:46,249
And he described this moment

837
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:48,309
as the beginning of the

838
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:50,549
decalicing of his heart.

839
00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:52,409
And in a way, it was like

840
00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:54,289
the cliche psychedelic

841
00:26:54,290 --> 00:26:56,369
experience, which is, you know,

842
00:26:56,370 --> 00:26:58,219
that, "love is all there is,

843
00:26:58,220 --> 00:26:59,519
and love is the most important

844
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,499
thing." He doesn't know this

845
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,159
is a trope of psychedelic

846
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,739
experience, and it meant the world

847
00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:05,740
to him.

848
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,239
I was so disarmed when this person

849
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,119
I had never met told

850
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:11,979
me this story.

851
00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:13,219
And you could see this was not

852
00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:14,519
somebody with a callous on his

853
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:15,520
heart.

854
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,019
And for Zach Kamenetz, the rabbi

855
00:27:18,020 --> 00:27:19,799
from Berkeley who had just had a

856
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,859
baby, the journey provided

857
00:27:21,860 --> 00:27:23,420
an incredible amount of insight.

858
00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:27,129
No matter what I saw, whether it

859
00:27:27,130 --> 00:27:28,969
was going down a

860
00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:30,809
deep, dark tunnel,

861
00:27:30,810 --> 00:27:32,749
which felt like timeless and

862
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:35,369
spaceless and ageless,

863
00:27:35,370 --> 00:27:37,369
or seeing my

864
00:27:37,370 --> 00:27:39,209
newborn daughter,

865
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:41,509
my wife and myself as

866
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:43,409
animated woodland creatures,

867
00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:45,429
happy and joyous together,

868
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:47,429
there was some wisdom that was

869
00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:49,509
embedded in each of these moments.

870
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,959
It felt like for the very

871
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,779
first time, after

872
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:58,419
the miscarriages and after

873
00:27:58,420 --> 00:28:00,399
the three IVF

874
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,639
rounds and finally good

875
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,799
embryos and finally

876
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,940
our first child being born,

877
00:28:08,380 --> 00:28:10,399
the opportunity to just say

878
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,499
thank you in my own

879
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:14,999
words, full of emotion,

880
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,532
full of gratitude, full

881
00:28:18,050 --> 00:28:19,929
of the grief and the pain

882
00:28:19,930 --> 00:28:22,029
of all of the moments that

883
00:28:22,030 --> 00:28:24,229
went from learning that

884
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:26,189
there was a fetus that was no

885
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:28,249
longer growing in my wife's body

886
00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:30,089
to this beautiful

887
00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:31,950
baby having been born.

888
00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:35,329
Thank you.

889
00:28:35,330 --> 00:28:36,330
Thank you for it all.

890
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,399
So when we talk about the mystical

891
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,279
experience, I know some people

892
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,599
describe it as a divine encounter

893
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,579
or as quote unquote seeing

894
00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:49,439
God, but what is it that

895
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,119
these leaders actually say they

896
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:51,999
experienced?

897
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,999
Well, none of them saw God as this

898
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,019
embodied form or the guy

899
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:57,939
in the clouds with a beard, but they

900
00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:59,859
felt a very powerful presence

901
00:28:59,860 --> 00:29:01,799
or a sense of an imminence

902
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,639
or a suffusion of their

903
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,099
own bodies with this divine

904
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:05,939
presence.

905
00:29:05,940 --> 00:29:06,959
But one of the things I found

906
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,559
particularly interesting that came

907
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,599
up in several of my interviews was

908
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,879
the God of people's

909
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,679
experience was a feminine presence.

910
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,399
And this is men as well as women and

911
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,619
this kind of blew people's minds.

912
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:21,419
One described a complete

913
00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:23,659
deconstruction of patriarchal

914
00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:25,959
religion in his experience.

915
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,639
Another, a woman said that God was

916
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,599
like a Jewish mother and

917
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,579
she was a Baptist and she kind

918
00:29:31,580 --> 00:29:33,419
of blown away by that.

919
00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:35,179
So there were some commonalities

920
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:37,279
across faiths in their experience

921
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:37,949
of God.

922
00:29:37,950 --> 00:29:39,909
That's so interesting.

923
00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:41,809
So how many dosing sessions did

924
00:29:41,810 --> 00:29:43,529
these participants take part in?

925
00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:45,589
Well, they were offered two, but not

926
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:47,469
everybody wanted the second dose

927
00:29:47,470 --> 00:29:49,329
or could do the second dos.

928
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:51,489
So out of the 29, five declined

929
00:29:51,490 --> 00:29:52,869
the second does.

930
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:54,729
And in some cases, such as

931
00:29:54,730 --> 00:29:57,089
Rabbi Zach's, the second experience

932
00:29:57,090 --> 00:29:58,589
was profoundly different than the

933
00:29:58,590 --> 00:29:59,590
first.

934
00:29:59,830 --> 00:30:01,769
I went in for

935
00:30:01,770 --> 00:30:03,769
the second dosing

936
00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:05,809
with the increased dose

937
00:30:05,810 --> 00:30:07,749
of psilocybin,

938
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:10,829
assuming naively that

939
00:30:10,830 --> 00:30:12,849
more psilocybin would mean

940
00:30:12,850 --> 00:30:14,829
more of what I experienced

941
00:30:14,830 --> 00:30:16,469
the first time.

942
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:18,749
And very quickly,

943
00:30:18,750 --> 00:30:20,689
after I had swallowed the

944
00:30:20,690 --> 00:30:22,549
pill, I knew

945
00:30:22,550 --> 00:30:23,969
that something was immediately

946
00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:24,970
different.

947
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,939
It really took a very long time

948
00:30:27,940 --> 00:30:29,859
to come on as where the first

949
00:30:29,860 --> 00:30:31,179
time it was immediate.

950
00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:33,039
And so I started to wonder

951
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,979
like, what's going on?

952
00:30:34,980 --> 00:30:36,259
Is there something wrong?

953
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:37,979
Is there's something different?

954
00:30:37,980 --> 00:30:40,139
Maybe it's not gonna work this time,

955
00:30:40,140 --> 00:30:41,140
ha ha ha.

956
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,319
And basically for the next

957
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,259
six hours, I

958
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:48,139
felt like I was in a

959
00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:49,140
deep dark hole.

960
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,479
There was no light, there

961
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,039
was no color.

962
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,079
There was no relationships or

963
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,200
no visions to be had,

964
00:30:59,260 --> 00:31:01,659
but either cosmic boredom or

965
00:31:01,660 --> 00:31:03,919
what I might now call residing

966
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,459
in the shadow of faith,

967
00:31:06,460 --> 00:31:08,759
not faith itself, but in its shadow

968
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,559
where I encountered

969
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:13,740
emptiness,

970
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,239
where there was nothing,

971
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,679
what felt like nothing happening,

972
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,839
literally nothing was

973
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:23,840
happening.

974
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:27,959
I was encountering the

975
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,179
nothing of reality,

976
00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:33,279
the absence, capital A.

977
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,439
And that was

978
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,999
very confusing to me.

979
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,819
I had not experienced

980
00:31:39,820 --> 00:31:41,719
divinity as capital

981
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,539
N nothing before.

982
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,799
And at the

983
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,679
end of that experience,

984
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,839
I felt like I

985
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,359
had done something wrong.

986
00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:55,669
And I had never encountered

987
00:31:55,670 --> 00:31:57,231
as a religious person a spiritual

988
00:31:58,770 --> 00:32:01,029
paradox, but

989
00:32:01,030 --> 00:32:02,909
here I was. I was holding

990
00:32:02,910 --> 00:32:05,309
both the fullness of compassion

991
00:32:05,310 --> 00:32:07,709
and the bleakness of

992
00:32:07,710 --> 00:32:08,710
boundaries.

993
00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:11,709
And so put all together and over

994
00:32:11,710 --> 00:32:13,709
many years,

995
00:32:13,710 --> 00:32:15,809
I'm embracing two

996
00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:17,729
polarities of a

997
00:32:17,730 --> 00:32:18,730
spiritual life.

998
00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:24,939
So these people clearly had profound

999
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:26,919
experiences, in some cases,

1000
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,979
really strange experiences.

1001
00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:30,419
And they had a lot of time to make

1002
00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:31,759
sense of those experiences on their

1003
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,019
own, right? Because from what I

1004
00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:34,639
understand, the study took a long

1005
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:35,899
time to publish.

1006
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:38,589
Do we know why it took so long?

1007
00:32:38,590 --> 00:32:39,689
Well, things got a little

1008
00:32:39,690 --> 00:32:41,809
complicated and controversial,

1009
00:32:41,810 --> 00:32:42,989
particularly with regard to the

1010
00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:44,130
story of Hunt Priest.

1011
00:32:45,650 --> 00:32:47,629
In that first session, I most

1012
00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:49,449
definitely experienced the divine

1013
00:32:49,450 --> 00:32:51,009
presence.

1014
00:32:51,010 --> 00:32:52,929
It was just a powerful

1015
00:32:52,930 --> 00:32:54,909
electrical current moving

1016
00:32:54,910 --> 00:32:55,910
through my body.

1017
00:32:57,010 --> 00:32:59,009
It started in my spine,

1018
00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:01,849
moved up my spine and got lodged

1019
00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:03,289
around my Adam's apple.

1020
00:33:03,290 --> 00:33:04,669
And there was a moment that I

1021
00:33:04,670 --> 00:33:05,729
thought my Adam Apple is gonna

1022
00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:07,269
explode or whatever this was gonna

1023
00:33:07,270 --> 00:33:09,529
come out my ears or my mouth or

1024
00:33:09,530 --> 00:33:10,709
my eye sockets.

1025
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:12,229
And I remember thinking, oh my God,

1026
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:13,469
this is big.

1027
00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:14,929
I don't know what this is, but this

1028
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:15,930
is big.

1029
00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:19,259
At one point, he remembered,

1030
00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:20,339
although it turns out it didn't

1031
00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:21,959
really happen, that Bill Richards,

1032
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,919
who was his guide, did a kind of

1033
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,899
laying on of hands and put his hands

1034
00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:27,179
on his head.

1035
00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:29,179
And the other guide held his feet

1036
00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:30,739
and he just felt this current

1037
00:33:30,740 --> 00:33:32,339
passing through him.

1038
00:33:32,340 --> 00:33:34,059
After the electrical current moved

1039
00:33:34,060 --> 00:33:36,079
through my body and I was

1040
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,319
touched and it went out the top of

1041
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,339
my head, I began to

1042
00:33:39,340 --> 00:33:41,319
make sounds that weren't exactly

1043
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,320
words.

1044
00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:47,389
They were sounds that seemed to

1045
00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:48,390
mean something.

1046
00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:50,309
And I remember thinking in the

1047
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:52,029
moment, is that what's talked about

1048
00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:53,669
in scripture, of speaking in

1049
00:33:53,670 --> 00:33:54,670
tongues?

1050
00:33:55,170 --> 00:33:57,309
It was something about this throat

1051
00:33:57,310 --> 00:33:59,129
blockage being unblocked

1052
00:33:59,130 --> 00:34:00,969
with this energetic force that

1053
00:34:00,970 --> 00:34:02,089
was moving through my body.

1054
00:34:03,390 --> 00:34:06,209
And then like singing,

1055
00:34:06,210 --> 00:34:08,488
like words that were not words,

1056
00:34:08,489 --> 00:34:10,709
like some sort of holy language

1057
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:13,009
that I didn't need to know about.

1058
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:15,169
There may have been some moaning.

1059
00:34:15,170 --> 00:34:17,009
There was also a erotic kind

1060
00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:18,968
of sexual energy in all of it.

1061
00:34:18,969 --> 00:34:20,908
It wasn't like having sex, but it

1062
00:34:20,909 --> 00:34:22,269
felt charged erotically.

1063
00:34:29,210 --> 00:34:31,249
But after this happened, he felt a

1064
00:34:31,250 --> 00:34:33,109
new lightness and freedom and

1065
00:34:33,110 --> 00:34:35,029
that he'd broken through this

1066
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:36,908
block that he had and that

1067
00:34:36,909 --> 00:34:39,109
this was an incredibly powerful

1068
00:34:39,110 --> 00:34:40,849
experience for him.

1069
00:34:40,850 --> 00:34:42,349
I've interpreted it in a couple of

1070
00:34:42,350 --> 00:34:44,388
ways. One is in a really

1071
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:46,468
Christian way that that energy

1072
00:34:46,469 --> 00:34:48,009
moving through me is the Holy

1073
00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:49,609
Spirit, that the Holy spirit

1074
00:34:49,610 --> 00:34:51,849
manifests as energy.

1075
00:34:51,850 --> 00:34:53,669
The next day, I remembered the verse

1076
00:34:53,670 --> 00:34:55,189
from scripture that the body is a

1077
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:56,968
temple of the Holy Spirt.

1078
00:34:56,969 --> 00:34:58,869
And from that moment on, I thought

1079
00:34:58,870 --> 00:35:00,029
that's exactly right.

1080
00:35:00,030 --> 00:35:01,789
Our bodies are where the Spirit

1081
00:35:01,790 --> 00:35:03,109
lives in us.

1082
00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:04,789
It's where God lives.

1083
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:05,789
And one of the ways that I

1084
00:35:05,790 --> 00:35:07,209
understood that block in my throat

1085
00:35:07,210 --> 00:35:09,149
was because as a priest

1086
00:35:09,150 --> 00:35:10,999
and a preacher, my voice

1087
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,799
is really important.

1088
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,659
And I felt like often

1089
00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:16,059
my voice was squelched.

1090
00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:17,419
It was blocked because I had not

1091
00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:19,259
been able to say things I

1092
00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:20,999
wanted to say or needed to say as a

1093
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,579
clergy person and preacher.

1094
00:35:22,580 --> 00:35:24,399
The other thing is in

1095
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,639
my tradition, if we're praying with

1096
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:26,839
somebody, especially if they're sick

1097
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,679
or struggling, I often put my

1098
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,759
hands on their head.

1099
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,499
And because of that experience of

1100
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:34,359
being touched and that so much

1101
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:35,559
dramatically increasing the

1102
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,659
experience, I began to see

1103
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:39,399
and know that I was doing something

1104
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,319
more than just touching people,

1105
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,179
that it had deep spiritual

1106
00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:44,580
power and significance.

1107
00:35:48,529 --> 00:35:49,749
You know, the mixing of science and

1108
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:51,869
religion is just kind of explosive

1109
00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:54,769
and makes people very uncomfortable.

1110
00:35:54,770 --> 00:35:56,189
Scientists think it's kind of

1111
00:35:56,190 --> 00:35:58,669
woo-woo and not serious.

1112
00:35:58,670 --> 00:36:00,257
And religious people think it's, you

1113
00:36:00,258 --> 00:36:02,289
know, we're talking about sacred

1114
00:36:02,290 --> 00:36:04,629
experience that's being measured

1115
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:06,789
and administered and

1116
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:08,169
chemically occasioned.

1117
00:36:08,170 --> 00:36:09,429
Is that a cheapening of the

1118
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:10,529
spiritual experience?

1119
00:36:10,530 --> 00:36:11,769
I'm sure there are people who feel

1120
00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:13,649
that, that this is a synthetic

1121
00:36:13,650 --> 00:36:15,569
version of what

1122
00:36:15,570 --> 00:36:17,569
is really profound and sacred and

1123
00:36:17,570 --> 00:36:19,229
shouldn't be messed with.

1124
00:36:19,230 --> 00:36:21,309
But there are also people who

1125
00:36:21,310 --> 00:36:23,329
fear or believe

1126
00:36:23,330 --> 00:36:25,289
that there is a

1127
00:36:25,290 --> 00:36:27,229
hidden goal to

1128
00:36:27,230 --> 00:36:28,629
this study that isn't being

1129
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:31,069
disclosed and that is to inject

1130
00:36:31,070 --> 00:36:33,949
psychedelics into religion.

1131
00:36:33,950 --> 00:36:35,329
And some people feel they wanna

1132
00:36:35,330 --> 00:36:37,189
defend religion from that and

1133
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:39,029
that this is a

1134
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:40,189
heretical move.

1135
00:36:40,190 --> 00:36:42,129
I don't think that this was the goal

1136
00:36:42,130 --> 00:36:43,629
of any of the researchers.

1137
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:45,659
I talked to them about it

1138
00:36:45,660 --> 00:36:48,379
and they specifically disclaimed it.

1139
00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:50,119
But with regard to Hunt's

1140
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,179
experience, the fact that he

1141
00:36:52,180 --> 00:36:54,339
spoke publicly about

1142
00:36:54,340 --> 00:36:56,279
his session, which he did several

1143
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,159
times and he described this laying

1144
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,299
on of hands, a man

1145
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:02,219
who had worked for him as an

1146
00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:04,059
intern felt that

1147
00:37:04,060 --> 00:37:06,419
there had been a boundary violation

1148
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:08,399
and that this was a case

1149
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,399
of therapist abuse basically.

1150
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,379
And that led to

1151
00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:15,339
an IRB investigation,

1152
00:37:15,340 --> 00:37:16,239
Institutional Review Board.

1153
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,259
This is the organization at

1154
00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:20,219
any university that

1155
00:37:20,220 --> 00:37:22,199
ensures the safety and

1156
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,539
wellbeing of experimental subjects,

1157
00:37:24,540 --> 00:37:26,299
whether they're humans or animals or

1158
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:26,669
whatever.

1159
00:37:26,670 --> 00:37:28,669
Right, they approve the methods of

1160
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:30,629
a study beforehand and also

1161
00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:31,509
keep track.

1162
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:33,389
Exactly, you have to submit

1163
00:37:33,390 --> 00:37:35,129
your protocol, exactly what you're

1164
00:37:35,130 --> 00:37:37,189
gonna do to the IRB and they comment

1165
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:39,349
on it. And they've determined that

1166
00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:41,689
in fact, Bill Richards hadn't

1167
00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:43,349
touched Hunt Priest on the head.

1168
00:37:43,350 --> 00:37:44,709
He had touched him on the shoulder,

1169
00:37:44,710 --> 00:37:46,709
which was consented to.

1170
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:48,369
And the reason was they had videos.

1171
00:37:48,370 --> 00:37:50,329
And so that charge

1172
00:37:50,330 --> 00:37:52,329
melted away.

1173
00:37:52,330 --> 00:37:54,089
But there were other charges too.

1174
00:37:54,090 --> 00:37:56,029
Two of the funders got involved in

1175
00:37:56,030 --> 00:37:57,029
the research.

1176
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:58,949
One became the person who was

1177
00:37:58,950 --> 00:38:00,309
conducting these in-depth

1178
00:38:00,310 --> 00:38:01,279
interviews.

1179
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,199
Another served as a guide

1180
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:04,759
or a second guide in several

1181
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:05,959
sessions.

1182
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,799
This hadn't been disclosed

1183
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,839
to the IRB in the original

1184
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,509
filing.

1185
00:38:10,510 --> 00:38:12,129
Yeah, that's to be clear, that's a

1186
00:38:12,130 --> 00:38:14,029
highly unusual thing to

1187
00:38:14,030 --> 00:38:15,669
have happen in a scientific study,

1188
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:16,279
right?

1189
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,619
Yeah, as far as I know.

1190
00:38:17,620 --> 00:38:19,079
I mean, I don't think it's

1191
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,019
forbidden, but it's unusual

1192
00:38:21,020 --> 00:38:22,559
and certainly should be disclosed.

1193
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,399
And in fact, the IRB in

1194
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,519
its conclusion cleared the

1195
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,199
study for publication, but said they

1196
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,809
had to disclose this.

1197
00:38:29,810 --> 00:38:31,149
Some experts have voiced concerns

1198
00:38:31,150 --> 00:38:32,489
that the researchers in this study

1199
00:38:32,490 --> 00:38:33,969
might have primed the participants

1200
00:38:33,970 --> 00:38:35,929
to have a spiritual experience.

1201
00:38:35,930 --> 00:38:36,969
What do you make of that?

1202
00:38:38,849 --> 00:38:40,269
The priming issue I think is real.

1203
00:38:40,270 --> 00:38:42,249
You know, they are asked in

1204
00:38:42,250 --> 00:38:43,489
one of the questionnaires about

1205
00:38:43,490 --> 00:38:45,629
their sacred experience.

1206
00:38:45,630 --> 00:38:47,289
So there's an assumption that they

1207
00:38:47,290 --> 00:38:49,469
had one. And this is a study about

1208
00:38:49,470 --> 00:38:51,089
exploring and developing your

1209
00:38:51,090 --> 00:38:52,349
spiritual life.

1210
00:38:52,350 --> 00:38:53,949
So they're basically saying, you're

1211
00:38:53,950 --> 00:38:56,229
gonna have a spiritual experience.

1212
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:57,689
So, you know, priming is a real

1213
00:38:57,690 --> 00:38:59,529
issue in psychedelic research

1214
00:38:59,530 --> 00:39:01,429
and expectancy effects.

1215
00:39:01,430 --> 00:39:03,669
Although it is true, you cannot

1216
00:39:03,670 --> 00:39:05,569
reliably predict the kind of

1217
00:39:05,570 --> 00:39:07,499
experience people will have.

1218
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:09,359
And people surprise you all the

1219
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,139
time.

1220
00:39:10,140 --> 00:39:12,279
The fact is that, you know,

1221
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,319
everything from the Buddha statue in

1222
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,379
the treatment room to the

1223
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:18,579
music that's being played to

1224
00:39:18,580 --> 00:39:20,479
the kinds of questions you're

1225
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,479
asked. I mean, if you are having

1226
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,499
a series of questionnaires before

1227
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:26,299
and after, and then your second trip

1228
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:28,139
before andafter, and

1229
00:39:28,140 --> 00:39:30,039
every time you're asked, have you

1230
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,059
had a mystical experience?

1231
00:39:32,060 --> 00:39:33,699
You're putting the idea in people's

1232
00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:35,299
head that you probably should have

1233
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:36,300
one.

1234
00:39:36,850 --> 00:39:38,769
And so it's a kind of

1235
00:39:38,770 --> 00:39:40,609
vulnerability of this research that

1236
00:39:40,610 --> 00:39:42,649
in many ways,

1237
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:44,189
people are primed for a certain kind

1238
00:39:44,190 --> 00:39:45,389
of experience. It doesn't guarantee

1239
00:39:45,390 --> 00:39:47,269
they'll have it, but it

1240
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:48,429
sort of loads the dice in that

1241
00:39:48,430 --> 00:39:49,548
direction.

1242
00:39:49,549 --> 00:39:52,109
Okay, so setting that aside,

1243
00:39:52,110 --> 00:39:54,169
what did the researchers find once

1244
00:39:54,170 --> 00:39:55,489
they did their analysis?

1245
00:39:55,490 --> 00:39:56,809
What were the main conclusions of

1246
00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:57,919
the study?

1247
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,199
Well, it was very interesting.

1248
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,199
First, with regard to the mystical

1249
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,979
experience, they screened

1250
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:04,439
immediately and then six months

1251
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:05,559
later.

1252
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,619
88% of the participants

1253
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:09,519
met the criteria for having

1254
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,379
had a mystical experience.

1255
00:40:11,380 --> 00:40:13,639
And then they found at six months

1256
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,639
that compared with the control

1257
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,579
group, participants who had received

1258
00:40:17,580 --> 00:40:19,879
psilocybin reported significantly

1259
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,839
greater positive changes in

1260
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,839
their religious practices, attitudes

1261
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,459
about their religion, and

1262
00:40:25,460 --> 00:40:27,959
effectiveness as religious leaders.

1263
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,619
As well as in their non-religious

1264
00:40:29,620 --> 00:40:32,079
attitudes, moods and behaviors.

1265
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,619
So a very strong improvement

1266
00:40:34,620 --> 00:40:36,519
in their practice of

1267
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,699
their vocation.

1268
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:40,159
And they went back 16 months later

1269
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,159
and participants rated at least

1270
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,199
one of their psilocybin experiences

1271
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,879
to be among the top five

1272
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,299
most spiritually significant

1273
00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:51,909
experiences of their lifetime

1274
00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:54,299
and most psychologically insightful

1275
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:56,809
experiences of their life time.

1276
00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:58,309
That's kind of incredible.

1277
00:40:58,310 --> 00:41:00,409
And 42% rated one

1278
00:41:00,410 --> 00:41:02,329
of their psilocybin experiences

1279
00:41:02,330 --> 00:41:04,309
to be the single most

1280
00:41:04,310 --> 00:41:06,809
profound experience of their lives.

1281
00:41:06,810 --> 00:41:08,049
Wow.

1282
00:41:08,050 --> 00:41:09,189
One of the findings I found

1283
00:41:09,190 --> 00:41:10,669
particularly interesting is that

1284
00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:12,989
most, something like 71%,

1285
00:41:12,990 --> 00:41:15,129
reported positive changes in

1286
00:41:15,130 --> 00:41:17,169
their appreciation of religious

1287
00:41:17,170 --> 00:41:19,649
traditions other than their own.

1288
00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:21,649
Now, although there were no serious

1289
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:25,229
adverse events reported, 46%

1290
00:41:25,230 --> 00:41:26,729
of the participants.

1291
00:41:26,730 --> 00:41:28,109
Said that their psilocybin

1292
00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:30,009
experience was among the top

1293
00:41:30,010 --> 00:41:32,269
five most psychologically

1294
00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:34,649
challenging of their lives.

1295
00:41:34,650 --> 00:41:36,349
So it wasn't always easy for these

1296
00:41:36,350 --> 00:41:37,589
people, but it was nevertheless

1297
00:41:37,590 --> 00:41:38,759
profound.

1298
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,319
Okay, and what about the big

1299
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,359
questions of the study?

1300
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,519
Did they think this was real and

1301
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,359
not some illusion or a

1302
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,939
by-product of their brain chemistry,

1303
00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:48,639
making them think that they were

1304
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,629
having a mystical experience?

1305
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:52,649
Most of them regarded

1306
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:55,589
their experience as authentic

1307
00:41:55,590 --> 00:41:58,269
and that it was the real deal.

1308
00:41:58,270 --> 00:42:00,109
And there was nobody I talked to

1309
00:42:00,110 --> 00:42:01,749
who had any doubt about that.

1310
00:42:01,750 --> 00:42:03,329
Even the ones who had negative

1311
00:42:03,330 --> 00:42:05,189
experiences didn't doubt their

1312
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:06,209
authenticity.

1313
00:42:06,210 --> 00:42:08,329
So I think that was a significant

1314
00:42:08,330 --> 00:42:10,369
finding, but I think it's

1315
00:42:10,370 --> 00:42:12,369
important to stress this is a small

1316
00:42:12,370 --> 00:42:14,969
group, it's self-selected

1317
00:42:14,970 --> 00:42:16,029
in a way.

1318
00:42:16,030 --> 00:42:17,869
There are many religious

1319
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:20,219
figures who would never do this.

1320
00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:21,679
This is a group of people who

1321
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,879
perhaps had a spiritual hunger

1322
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,939
or were struggling in their work

1323
00:42:25,940 --> 00:42:28,758
and open to the possibility

1324
00:42:28,759 --> 00:42:30,239
that they will end up questioning

1325
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:31,359
their faith.

1326
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,819
Whenever you take a psychedelic at

1327
00:42:32,820 --> 00:42:34,219
these kind of doses, you are

1328
00:42:34,220 --> 00:42:35,639
throwing the dice.

1329
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,039
And people could have come out of

1330
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,339
this doubting the existence of God,

1331
00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:41,079
doubting the legitimacy of their

1332
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,939
faith, so they're risk takers

1333
00:42:42,940 --> 00:42:44,999
also. So we should be very

1334
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,699
careful in drawing big conclusions

1335
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:49,029
from this particular cohort.

1336
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:51,029
What happened with the participants

1337
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:52,529
after they completed the trial?

1338
00:42:52,530 --> 00:42:53,889
Did any of them experience a

1339
00:42:53,890 --> 00:42:55,159
substantial change?

1340
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,159
Yeah, some people, their whole

1341
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,519
life course changed.

1342
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,039
A couple of them spoke publicly

1343
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,839
about it.

1344
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,799
Others though, like Sughra, kept it

1345
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:03,799
to herself.

1346
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,699
After taking the medicine, I made a

1347
00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:07,159
decision not to talk about my

1348
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,599
experiences with anybody.

1349
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:09,439
I certainly didn't want to talk

1350
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:10,399
publicly about it.

1351
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,319
It was very personal, very intimate.

1352
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:13,759
I don't think my family would

1353
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,699
understand my experience even

1354
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:17,659
if I had shared with them.

1355
00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:19,599
To try and understand that you pop

1356
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,419
something that is the equivalent of

1357
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:22,659
a mushroom into your mouth and you

1358
00:43:22,660 --> 00:43:24,939
have hallucinogenic experiences and

1359
00:43:24,940 --> 00:43:26,199
that actually Sughra believes that

1360
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,039
those are real and that they

1361
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,599
are true and now wants to live her

1362
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:30,489
life by them.

1363
00:43:30,490 --> 00:43:32,349
I mean, that's beyond any

1364
00:43:32,350 --> 00:43:34,369
lay person who has had no exposure

1365
00:43:34,370 --> 00:43:36,109
to the world of psychedelics.

1366
00:43:36,110 --> 00:43:37,729
And I don't think it's very fair to

1367
00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:39,489
expect any kind of understanding

1368
00:43:39,490 --> 00:43:41,309
from people until they

1369
00:43:41,310 --> 00:43:42,849
have been exposed to this work

1370
00:43:42,850 --> 00:43:43,850
themselves.

1371
00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:46,589
Several of the participants came

1372
00:43:46,590 --> 00:43:48,889
out of the experience believing

1373
00:43:48,890 --> 00:43:50,869
that psychedelics should be part

1374
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:52,609
of their faith and gave up what they

1375
00:43:52,610 --> 00:43:54,909
were doing to start psychedelic

1376
00:43:54,910 --> 00:43:55,829
organizations.

1377
00:43:55,830 --> 00:43:58,249
That's kind of extraordinary.

1378
00:43:58,250 --> 00:44:00,429
Zak Kemenets ended up forming

1379
00:44:00,430 --> 00:44:02,769
a group called Shefa which

1380
00:44:02,770 --> 00:44:05,309
is about bringing psychedelic

1381
00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:07,648
experience into Judaism

1382
00:44:07,649 --> 00:44:08,649
in various ways.

1383
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,619
I estimate around a

1384
00:44:11,620 --> 00:44:13,839
million Jewish adults in

1385
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,179
the United States using psychedelics

1386
00:44:16,180 --> 00:44:17,359
currently.

1387
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,739
They want to reengage with

1388
00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:21,539
the content of their tradition and

1389
00:44:21,540 --> 00:44:23,559
sometimes for the first time, they

1390
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,559
want to be able to

1391
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,619
pick up a prayer book.

1392
00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:29,499
They want be able just pray

1393
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:31,219
in their own language.

1394
00:44:32,420 --> 00:44:34,259
And I haven't ever

1395
00:44:34,260 --> 00:44:36,779
encountered any other

1396
00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:38,949
catalyst for that

1397
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:40,889
kind of deep yearning, that

1398
00:44:40,890 --> 00:44:42,909
deep desire than psychedelics.

1399
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:45,689
And Hunt Priest who after his

1400
00:44:45,690 --> 00:44:47,869
experience became so convinced

1401
00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:50,089
that the Episcopal Church

1402
00:44:50,090 --> 00:44:52,029
could make good use

1403
00:44:52,030 --> 00:44:54,229
of psychedelic experience in

1404
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:55,769
religious retreats.

1405
00:44:55,770 --> 00:44:57,389
He started an organization called

1406
00:44:57,390 --> 00:44:59,349
Ligare and in fact left

1407
00:44:59,350 --> 00:45:01,489
his job, his post, at

1408
00:45:01,490 --> 00:45:03,369
that time he was a priest, to do

1409
00:45:03,370 --> 00:45:04,789
this full time.

1410
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:06,369
I do see a future where psychedelics

1411
00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:07,449
are part of Christian practice

1412
00:45:07,450 --> 00:45:09,909
because they actually are now.

1413
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:11,329
I talk to a lot of Christians that

1414
00:45:11,330 --> 00:45:13,429
are using psychedelics and they can

1415
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:15,349
coexist because they do.

1416
00:45:15,350 --> 00:45:17,269
And I know it's not a mainstream

1417
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:19,029
view and it's certainly still

1418
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:21,469
fringe, but it's happening already.

1419
00:45:21,470 --> 00:45:23,209
This is not about evangelism or

1420
00:45:23,210 --> 00:45:24,029
conversion.

1421
00:45:24,030 --> 00:45:25,689
It better not be, that's a misuse of

1422
00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:26,469
this.

1423
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:28,469
And I'm sure that'll be tried to by

1424
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:29,769
Christians but I think we should

1425
00:45:29,770 --> 00:45:31,469
offer these as a way to help people

1426
00:45:31,470 --> 00:45:32,650
find their spiritual path.

1427
00:45:36,890 --> 00:45:38,229
In the time since we interviewed

1428
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:40,129
Hunt, the Bishop of the Diocese of

1429
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:41,569
Georgia revoked his ordained

1430
00:45:41,570 --> 00:45:43,449
ministry, due in part to

1431
00:45:43,450 --> 00:45:45,089
his work with psychedelics.

1432
00:45:45,090 --> 00:45:46,789
Hunt is no longer an Episcopal

1433
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:47,790
priest.

1434
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:49,629
While we were reporting on this

1435
00:45:49,630 --> 00:45:51,489
study, we reached out to more than

1436
00:45:51,490 --> 00:45:53,349
a dozen religious organizations to

1437
00:45:53,350 --> 00:45:55,069
inquire about their stance on the

1438
00:45:55,070 --> 00:45:57,029
use of psychedelics, most

1439
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:58,609
did not respond.

1440
00:45:58,610 --> 00:45:59,929
But several did.

1441
00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:01,569
One spokesperson from the Rabbinical

1442
00:46:01,570 --> 00:46:03,529
Assembly said that it is permissible

1443
00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:05,589
for adults to consume mind-altering

1444
00:46:05,590 --> 00:46:07,669
substances, under the supervision

1445
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:09,590
of a trusted medical professional.

1446
00:46:11,130 --> 00:46:13,129
And officially, the Episcopal Church

1447
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:15,169
has no position on the use of

1448
00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:16,170
psychedelics.

1449
00:46:21,470 --> 00:46:23,489
And then, Sughra formed her

1450
00:46:23,490 --> 00:46:24,729
own organization.

1451
00:46:24,730 --> 00:46:26,849
I run a collective called

1452
00:46:26,850 --> 00:46:27,850
Ruhani.

1453
00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:30,489
Eventually, in January 2023,

1454
00:46:30,490 --> 00:46:31,989
I remember talking to somebody and

1455
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:33,609
saying, I just can't bury this

1456
00:46:33,610 --> 00:46:34,610
anymore.

1457
00:46:35,110 --> 00:46:37,129
I just, can't do that to myself,

1458
00:46:37,130 --> 00:46:38,649
it's hurting.

1459
00:46:38,650 --> 00:46:40,589
And so later on that year, I was

1460
00:46:40,590 --> 00:46:42,209
asked to speak about Islam, Muslim

1461
00:46:42,210 --> 00:46:44,049
cultures and psychedelics at

1462
00:46:44,050 --> 00:46:46,629
a conference, Psychedelic Science.

1463
00:46:46,630 --> 00:46:48,229
I ended up talking to person after

1464
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:49,549
person after person, I think it was

1465
00:46:49,550 --> 00:46:51,929
like two hours or something and

1466
00:46:51,930 --> 00:46:53,799
found myself giving

1467
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,019
my email address and my phone number

1468
00:46:56,020 --> 00:46:58,179
to lots of strangers

1469
00:46:58,180 --> 00:47:00,179
who were expressing to me that

1470
00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:02,239
I also have taken the medicine.

1471
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:03,739
I also am Muslim.

1472
00:47:03,740 --> 00:47:05,599
I also choose not to share this

1473
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,319
with my family or my friends.

1474
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,299
And I'm also struggling.

1475
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:10,599
I don't know where to go.

1476
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,119
I don't know what to do.

1477
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,099
I don't feel safe having

1478
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:16,059
these conversations openly.

1479
00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:17,899
And so I decided there

1480
00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:19,539
and then that we would start a

1481
00:47:19,540 --> 00:47:20,889
digital container.

1482
00:47:20,890 --> 00:47:22,729
Where anybody who wanted to from

1483
00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:24,269
these communities could come along

1484
00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:25,909
and we would have conversations

1485
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:28,279
every month online.

1486
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,499
I don't know of another cohort

1487
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:32,939
of people who've been in psychedelic

1488
00:47:32,940 --> 00:47:35,379
study who have actually devoted

1489
00:47:35,380 --> 00:47:37,779
their lives toward advancing

1490
00:47:37,780 --> 00:47:39,759
the cause of psychedelics in

1491
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:40,629
their world.

1492
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:42,729
At Ruhani, we are able to

1493
00:47:42,730 --> 00:47:44,449
help both Muslim communities but

1494
00:47:44,450 --> 00:47:46,049
also the wider world understand the

1495
00:47:46,050 --> 00:47:47,789
relationship between Islam and

1496
00:47:47,790 --> 00:47:48,989
psychedelics.

1497
00:47:48,990 --> 00:47:51,149
Psychedelics are not new in Muslim

1498
00:47:51,150 --> 00:47:52,169
cultures.

1499
00:47:52,170 --> 00:47:53,369
And a lot of people will just be

1500
00:47:53,370 --> 00:47:55,529
completely shocked to hear that.

1501
00:47:55,530 --> 00:47:57,469
We are not pioneers.

1502
00:47:57,470 --> 00:47:59,189
There have been people before us,

1503
00:47:59,190 --> 00:48:00,949
long before us saints especially in

1504
00:48:00,950 --> 00:48:02,789
the Sufi traditions that have

1505
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:04,689
ingested things and have had

1506
00:48:04,690 --> 00:48:05,950
mind altering experiences.

1507
00:48:07,119 --> 00:48:08,199
In a way, they've had a conversion

1508
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,019
experience and what

1509
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:11,259
they've been converted to are

1510
00:48:11,260 --> 00:48:12,239
psychedelics.

1511
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:13,959
But they haven't left their faith.

1512
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,219
In fact, their faith has been

1513
00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:17,659
renewed but they feel that

1514
00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:19,219
in the case of Sugahra, Muslims and

1515
00:48:19,220 --> 00:48:20,519
in the cases of Hunt Priest,

1516
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,439
Episcopalians, and in the case of

1517
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,779
Zak, Jews, could

1518
00:48:24,780 --> 00:48:26,959
benefit by including

1519
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,260
psychedelic experience.

1520
00:48:29,740 --> 00:48:31,739
When we think about psychedelics

1521
00:48:31,740 --> 00:48:33,679
and religion coming together,

1522
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,659
I think for a lot of people there is

1523
00:48:35,660 --> 00:48:37,439
going to be an inherent fear and I

1524
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,299
understand it, of course I do.

1525
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:41,139
Or a knee-jerk reaction that says,

1526
00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:42,939
well, this is not your fast track

1527
00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:43,899
way to God.

1528
00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:45,439
Like if you want to encounter the

1529
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:46,899
divine, if you want to get closer to

1530
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:49,399
the divine if you want to engage in

1531
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,459
your spirituality or your theology

1532
00:48:51,460 --> 00:48:53,499
in that way, it takes rigorous

1533
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:55,219
hard work over a prolonged period of

1534
00:48:55,220 --> 00:48:57,119
time. Our saints didn't just pop

1535
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,119
a pill. This is the work

1536
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,189
of lifetimes

1537
00:49:01,190 --> 00:49:03,169
and we know that from the stories

1538
00:49:03,170 --> 00:49:04,709
of the greats who have gone before

1539
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:07,629
us. This isn't something to fear.

1540
00:49:07,630 --> 00:49:09,389
It's not going anywhere.

1541
00:49:09,390 --> 00:49:10,509
If anything, we're going to be

1542
00:49:10,510 --> 00:49:12,369
consuming more and more of it as

1543
00:49:12,370 --> 00:49:13,829
generations go on.

1544
00:49:13,830 --> 00:49:15,709
So how do we learn

1545
00:49:15,710 --> 00:49:17,709
about it, respect

1546
00:49:17,710 --> 00:49:19,629
it and then share that with other

1547
00:49:19,630 --> 00:49:21,310
people? That's the answer.

1548
00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:26,719
Instead of the usual,

1549
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:28,179
we're gonna medicalize this, we've

1550
00:49:28,180 --> 00:49:30,239
got to find a therapeutic target.

1551
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:32,099
This is a kind of very exciting

1552
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:34,239
science where we're delving into

1553
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:36,199
big questions of metaphysics

1554
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,039
and using psychedelics and

1555
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,040
science to do it.

1556
00:49:40,110 --> 00:49:41,409
Do we know if there will be more

1557
00:49:41,410 --> 00:49:42,479
studies like this?

1558
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,519
Yes, the next study I

1559
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,799
hear is gonna be at Johns Hopkins

1560
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,699
where they wanna give a high dose

1561
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:50,739
of psilocybin to

1562
00:49:50,740 --> 00:49:52,839
atheist philosophers and

1563
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:53,840
see what happens.

1564
00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:59,189
Science generally looks down on

1565
00:49:59,190 --> 00:50:01,389
narrative and what philosophers

1566
00:50:01,390 --> 00:50:03,349
call phenomenology, the experience

1567
00:50:03,350 --> 00:50:04,949
of humans.

1568
00:50:04,950 --> 00:50:06,789
I think that the stories of these

1569
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:09,069
individuals have enormous value and

1570
00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:11,019
needs to be part of science.

1571
00:50:11,020 --> 00:50:13,019
The medicine took me away

1572
00:50:13,020 --> 00:50:14,879
very gently into

1573
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:16,659
another world, another space where I

1574
00:50:16,660 --> 00:50:18,799
was able to, what I understand is

1575
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,779
encounter my true self,

1576
00:50:20,780 --> 00:50:22,559
understand my actual values, go

1577
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,179
through the things that really

1578
00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:26,119
matter to me and gain

1579
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,539
a crystal-like sharp focus

1580
00:50:28,540 --> 00:50:30,739
on what those things are.

1581
00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:32,439
And today in all the stresses and

1582
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,379
strains of the world and with

1583
00:50:34,380 --> 00:50:36,589
all that happens in life.

1584
00:50:36,590 --> 00:50:38,169
When I can go back to that

1585
00:50:38,170 --> 00:50:39,909
experience, when I can remind myself

1586
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:41,829
about what is important,

1587
00:50:41,830 --> 00:50:44,029
it comes from my two

1588
00:50:44,030 --> 00:50:45,309
sessions.

1589
00:50:45,310 --> 00:50:46,869
As I feel like the plant continues

1590
00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:48,709
to unfold and continues

1591
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:49,710
to talk to me.

1592
00:50:51,350 --> 00:50:52,889
The transformative power of

1593
00:50:52,890 --> 00:50:54,689
psychedelics is quite remarkable,

1594
00:50:54,690 --> 00:50:56,029
doesn't always happen.

1595
00:50:56,030 --> 00:50:57,669
I think that the setting and the

1596
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:59,209
priming and all that are very

1597
00:50:59,210 --> 00:50:59,989
important.

1598
00:50:59,990 --> 00:51:01,809
But this is yet another group

1599
00:51:01,810 --> 00:51:03,669
that I interviewed who told stories

1600
00:51:03,670 --> 00:51:05,709
of personal transformation that were

1601
00:51:05,710 --> 00:51:07,309
poignant and powerful.

1602
00:51:07,310 --> 00:51:08,529
And when you think about it,

1603
00:51:08,530 --> 00:51:09,929
remarkable.

1604
00:51:09,930 --> 00:51:11,190
I mean, it's a mushroom.

1605
00:51:20,340 --> 00:51:21,819
Altered States is a production of

1606
00:51:21,820 --> 00:51:23,199
the UC Berkeley Center for the

1607
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,539
Science of Psychedelics and PRX.

1608
00:51:25,540 --> 00:51:27,599
Adizah Eghan is our senior editor.

1609
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,139
Our executive editor is Malia

1610
00:51:29,140 --> 00:51:30,079
Wollan.

1611
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:31,459
Jennnie Cataldo is our Senior

1612
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:32,319
Producer.

1613
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,599
Our researcher is Cassady Rosenblum.

1614
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,499
Our associate producer is Jade Abdul

1615
00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:37,499
Malik.

1616
00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:39,039
Our audio engineers are Terence

1617
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,119
Bernardo and Jennie Cataldo.

1618
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:42,120
Fact Checking by Graham Hacia.

1619
00:51:43,460 --> 00:51:45,099
Our executive producers are Malia

1620
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:47,119
Wollan and Jocelyn Gonzales.

1621
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,499
And our project manager is Edwin

1622
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:49,449
Ochoa.

1623
00:51:49,450 --> 00:51:51,129
Our theme music is by Thao Nguyen

1624
00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:52,529
and Nate Brenner.

1625
00:51:52,530 --> 00:51:53,530
I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross.

1626
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:56,629
Be sure to subscribe, rate, and

1627
00:51:56,630 --> 00:51:58,369
review Altered States wherever you

1628
00:51:58,370 --> 00:51:59,889
get your podcasts.

1629
00:51:59,890 --> 00:52:01,629
We'll be back next week.

1630
00:52:01,630 --> 00:52:03,149
Most well-known psychedelics remain

1631
00:52:03,150 --> 00:52:04,749
illegal around the world, including

1632
00:52:04,750 --> 00:52:06,149
the United States, where it is a

1633
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:07,809
criminal offense to manufacture,

1634
00:52:07,810 --> 00:52:09,669
possess, dispense, or supply most

1635
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:12,109
psychedelics, with few exceptions.

1636
00:52:12,110 --> 00:52:14,069
Altered States does not recommend or

1637
00:52:14,070 --> 00:52:16,189
encourage the use of psychedelics or

1638
00:52:16,190 --> 00:52:17,670
offer instructions in their use.