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Hey, it's Arielle.

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We are taking a short break and we

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will be back next week with a brand

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new episode.

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But this week we wanted to replay an

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episode from last season about a

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former US Navy SEAL with a traumatic

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brain injury who participates in

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a Stanford University research study

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on ibogaine.

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One of the researchers who led that

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study was Dr. Nolan

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R. Williams, a neuroscientist

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and physician who was the founder

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and director of the Brain

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Stimulation Lab at Stanford

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University.

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And we have some sad news to share

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about Dr. Williams.

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Earlier this month, Dr. William

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died.

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He was 42.

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He dedicated his life to developing

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innovative treatments for people

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suffering from depression, trauma,

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and brain injury.

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In a tribute to him, the Veterans

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Psychedelic Advocacy Organization,

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VETS, said, quote, his legacy

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is not just in his work,

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but in the lives that he changed.

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The episode you're about to hear

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originally aired on October 23rd,

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2024.

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And it's worth noting that it

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mentions both suicide and suicidal

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ideation.

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So please take care.

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I woke up in the morning going

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about the usual stuff.

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My wife gets up slightly a different

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time than me, but I got up, I got

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out, got my cup of coffee.

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She's doing her thing.

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I'm doing my thing,

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and I'm sitting at

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my desk in my office and I can't

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remember her name.

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We'd been married 28

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years,

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it was my wife's name,

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the person sleeping beside me every

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night that I'm home, the person

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that is raising my kids with me.

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There's no excusing that.

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This is Craig.

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He didn't want me to use his full

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name.

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Craig's a retired combat veteran and

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the time he's describing was back in

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2020.

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Craig was 51 years old,

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living with his family near Durango,

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Colorado.

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And he was sitting in his home

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office racking his brains,

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trying to recall his wife's name

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for hours.

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I'm going back through past

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conversations and I'm trying to

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figure out, okay,

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geez, something's going to stir this

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because it's something I

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should be able to remember.

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So I feel like I have to

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make myself remember it.

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And were you afraid of an encounter

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with her where you would reveal that

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you didn't know her name?

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was terrified that

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she would walk in and that

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I would have to say her name in the

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normal course of conversation

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and that she would see me

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as broken.

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And so what'd you do?

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I stayed in my office until

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I could figure it out.

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I struck upon the idea,

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okay, I've got a filing cabinet over

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here with a bunch of records in

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it and pieces of mail laying on top.

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And so I went through our mail and

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I found something with my wife's

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name on it in the mail.

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Gretchen. The name of his wife was

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Gretchen.

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They had been married for almost

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three decades.

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And that's when I was ready to say,

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hey, you know what?

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This isn't right.

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Something is not right.

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A few months after that inexplicable

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brain freeze, Craig decided to

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do something way out of character.

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He traveled to Mexico to take

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the psychedelic drug ibogaine.

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Since the 1960s, scientists

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have studied ibogaine as a potential

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treatment for opioid addiction.

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Now it's also being studied for

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post-traumatic stress disorder and

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traumatic brain injury, or TBI.

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And yet, ibogain is still a

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schedule one drug, meaning that the

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government considers it to have no

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accepted medical use and

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a high potential for abuse.

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It's illegal.

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But that hasn't stopped hundreds,

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maybe even thousands, of U.S.

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Veterans from traveling abroad to

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receive ibogaine-based treatments.

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And Craig, who we just heard from,

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is one of them.

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He traveled to Mexico in 2022

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to seek treatment for his traumatic

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brain injury.

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I'm Arielle Duhaime-Ross, and this

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is Altered States.

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Reporter Curtis Fox spoke with Craig

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about his experience.

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You can hear me okay?

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Yes, I can hear you very well.

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It's been about four years since

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that morning when Craig forgot his

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wife's name.

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I am 55 years

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old.

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He's got a full head of green hair.

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He's clean shaven.

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He's fit.

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He's handsome.

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He has a day job in the defense and

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aerospace industry that he does

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remotely.

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And also he runs a small ranch

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with Gretchen.

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It's mostly pasture and we

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raise beef, pork and poultry as

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well.

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I'm talking to Craig because I want

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to understand what led a serious,

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controlled guy.

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I really despise

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drugs in my system to travel to

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another country

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to take a psychedelic drug.

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A farm kid with low prospects,

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I join the military.

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And to understand that, I asked a

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lot of questions about his military

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service, like when did he join?

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I joined the military right

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after high school.

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This was in 1988.

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It took me a while to find them.

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I was a ski instructor the year

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before I became a SEAL.

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Before he became a Navy SEAL,

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that is.

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But that came later, after 18 months

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as a junior enlisted in the Navy and

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sometime back home in Colorado,

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that's when he started dating his

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future wife, Gretchen, who'd

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had her eye on him for a few years

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already.

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He was a ski instructor, and I

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was up there skiing with my

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friends, and then the instructors

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would do this thing where they,

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I mean, it wouldn't fly in

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today's world to be admitting this,

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but it was pretty funny.

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In the 80s, like, they would choose

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a cute girl of the day,

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and they'd all pitch into a

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pool, and whoever could get a

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date with her then got the date

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money.

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They didn't know, nor did he know,

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that I'd had a crush on him for like

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four years. So, I was a pretty

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easy catch.

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In 1991, Craig started

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BUD/S, the infamously grueling

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Navy SEAL training.

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His first deployment was a training

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mission that took him to Bahrain,

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United Arab Emirates, Qatar, and

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other countries throughout the

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Middle East.

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It was the first of his nine

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deployments over 27 years

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as a SEAL.

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All of my deployments were Mideast.

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You know, I was there for the very

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beginning of the global

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war on terror, where it was largely

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the first time for everybody.

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You must get this every time you

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talk to somebody who has been in

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the service, what kind of action did

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you see?

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So in small unit tactics,

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especially when you're 16 guys

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or less, you're trying really hard

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not to see action.

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Seeing action means you screwed

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up somewhere.

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Craig is not the kind of guy who

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wants to tell war stories.

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Can you describe one

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mission that didn't

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go as planned?

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That'd be all of them.

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He would only talk generally about

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what he did as if it was something

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that everyone like him did.

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You dominate the space as you move

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through the building.

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You take possession of the first

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room.

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Yeah.

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Craig did want to make one thing

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crystal, clear to me.

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I never had an event, I

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never participated in an event in

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conflict where I felt like I did

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something that I just couldn't

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square morally with myself.

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I had no moral crisis.

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Nor did I see anybody else do

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anything that I thought didn't

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square with the morals of who I am

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and who we are supposed to be

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as US military service members.

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So basically what he's saying is

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that his experience of war did not

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psychologically traumatize him.

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His problem, he says, shares some of

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the symptoms of post-traumatic

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stress disorder, but it is

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not PTSD.

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Were you around a lot of explosions?

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Yeah, all of your training involves

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setting off breacher charges,

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demolition charges, firing

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50 cal firing rocket

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propelled grenades.

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Yeah, a lot things going boom all

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the time.

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It wasn't just explosions.

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There were incidents, like the

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time when the air temperature was

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warmer than expected, and Craig

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and other guys parachuting out of a

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plane dropped to the ground much

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faster than they were supposed to.

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Out of 14 guys that jumped.

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We had 12 of us that were

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unconscious for, we don't know

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really for how long after we hit

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the ground.

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And that kind of hard hit is just,

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you get up, you move on, you don't

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dwell on that.

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But it was mainly explosions.

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Lots and lots of explosions.

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Craig told me he taught advanced

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applied explosives and

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breaching.

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So you'd hang a charge on a locked

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door, you'd blow that,

287
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:55,959
and everybody would flood in as

288
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,339
quickly as possible.

289
00:08:57,340 --> 00:08:58,939
And I was, as a safety guy, I was

290
00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:00,819
usually somewhere very close to the

291
00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:02,519
front of that train.

292
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,419
And it was not uncommon at all

293
00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:06,439
to run one or two dozen

294
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,059
explosives like that in an

295
00:09:08,060 --> 00:09:09,279
afternoon.

296
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,599
After about the third or fourth time

297
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,259
that day, you'd go through that door

298
00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:14,099
and you'd have to kind of shake

299
00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:15,399
your head and blink a little bit and

300
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,459
remember, who am

301
00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:19,829
I, where am I?

302
00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:21,309
What am I doing?

303
00:09:21,310 --> 00:09:23,089
Oh, yeah, it's Thursday afternoon.

304
00:09:23,090 --> 00:09:23,929
I'm on the range.

305
00:09:23,930 --> 00:09:25,775
Okay. Yep standing here.

306
00:09:25,776 --> 00:09:27,609
We just blew the charge and

307
00:09:27,610 --> 00:09:28,829
okay. Everybody's safe.

308
00:09:28,830 --> 00:09:31,229
I've never been there explosion.

309
00:09:31,230 --> 00:09:32,389
What happens to your body?

310
00:09:32,390 --> 00:09:33,390
How does it feel?

311
00:09:34,310 --> 00:09:36,129
Like if you've ever stepped out into

312
00:09:36,130 --> 00:09:38,129
the wind And

313
00:09:38,130 --> 00:09:39,769
the wind just kind of pounds your

314
00:09:39,770 --> 00:09:40,770
whole body

315
00:09:41,610 --> 00:09:43,429
It's that but multiply it

316
00:09:43,430 --> 00:09:45,389
by about a thousand and then just

317
00:09:45,390 --> 00:09:47,229
really compress the

318
00:09:47,230 --> 00:09:48,633
time frame in which it happens.

319
00:09:48,634 --> 00:09:50,449
So you have

320
00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:51,869
this blast wave.

321
00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:53,749
It's really rolling through

322
00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:55,289
your body.

323
00:09:55,290 --> 00:09:56,949
And give me a sense of how many

324
00:09:56,950 --> 00:09:59,189
explosions you were exposed to.

325
00:09:59,190 --> 00:10:01,189
In 27 years, the nearest I could

326
00:10:01,190 --> 00:10:03,109
tell, it runs into

327
00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:04,009
the tens of thousands.

328
00:10:04,010 --> 00:10:05,769
I would say somewhere between 15 and

329
00:10:05,770 --> 00:10:06,770
20,000.

330
00:10:10,450 --> 00:10:12,209
We know a lot more today about brain

331
00:10:12,210 --> 00:10:14,649
injuries than we did a decade ago.

332
00:10:14,650 --> 00:10:16,109
We know that football players can

333
00:10:16,110 --> 00:10:17,949
develop CTE, or chronic

334
00:10:17,950 --> 00:10:19,889
traumatic encephalopathy, from

335
00:10:19,890 --> 00:10:22,029
all those hits to the head.

336
00:10:22,030 --> 00:10:23,729
We know soldiers who've been exposed

337
00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:25,649
to blasts can suffer from traumatic

338
00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:27,310
brain injury, or TBI.

339
00:10:28,510 --> 00:10:31,229
Craig does not blame the military.

340
00:10:31,230 --> 00:10:32,669
He says they've been careful to

341
00:10:32,670 --> 00:10:34,409
adhere to the safety standards of

342
00:10:34,410 --> 00:10:36,889
the time, and besides.

343
00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:38,689
The whole idea of being in the

344
00:10:38,690 --> 00:10:40,649
military is it's not a

345
00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:42,669
career choice that is wrapped up

346
00:10:42,670 --> 00:10:44,529
in being super

347
00:10:44,530 --> 00:10:46,329
safe. It's being safe enough.

348
00:10:46,330 --> 00:10:46,969
Got it.

349
00:10:46,970 --> 00:10:48,849
I mean, I had injuries, but

350
00:10:48,850 --> 00:10:50,469
I'm not disabled.

351
00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:51,749
I got 10 fingers, right?

352
00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:52,809
I got ten toes.

353
00:10:52,810 --> 00:10:54,849
And I got at

354
00:10:54,850 --> 00:10:56,689
least as many

355
00:10:56,690 --> 00:10:58,509
close comrades and

356
00:10:58,510 --> 00:10:59,510
teammates.

357
00:11:01,330 --> 00:11:02,809
So I'll be damned if I'm gonna go

358
00:11:02,810 --> 00:11:05,429
out and say that I'm injured.

359
00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:06,769
I got buddies that can't stand up

360
00:11:06,770 --> 00:11:08,149
that would love to.

361
00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:10,109
That didn't mean he wasn't injured,

362
00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:11,929
but it took him a long time to

363
00:11:11,930 --> 00:11:13,159
see that he was.

364
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,099
The entire culture of the military

365
00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:16,999
is very much don't ever

366
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,999
admit when you're injured.

367
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,159
Nobody wants to let their buddies go

368
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:21,999
off to war while they

369
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,539
sit at home nursing a boo-boo.

370
00:11:24,670 --> 00:11:26,189
The problem with Craig is he looks

371
00:11:26,190 --> 00:11:28,109
good, and a

372
00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:29,929
lot of these guys, they look

373
00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:31,789
good, they look healthy,

374
00:11:31,790 --> 00:11:33,989
they looks strong, they are

375
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:35,809
super capable,

376
00:11:35,810 --> 00:11:37,849
and they'll get the job done

377
00:11:37,850 --> 00:11:39,229
even if they feel like shit.

378
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:42,699
Gretchen and Craig got married

379
00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,119
shortly after he became a SEAL.

380
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,559
Between deployments, he would spend

381
00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:48,739
long stretches of time at home.

382
00:11:48,740 --> 00:11:49,879
They have four kids.

383
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,919
Girl, girl, boy, girl.

384
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,799
They've been married now for

385
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,089
28 years, Craig said.

386
00:11:55,090 --> 00:11:56,749
No, no, 31.

387
00:11:56,750 --> 00:11:58,509
I need credit for all of them.

388
00:11:58,510 --> 00:11:59,510
Yeah.

389
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,379
Over those 31 years, Gretchen

390
00:12:03,380 --> 00:12:05,219
has seen firsthand the toll

391
00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:07,119
that Craig's career has taken on

392
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:07,979
him.

393
00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:09,399
She first noticed something wasn't

394
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,299
quite right about 14 years

395
00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:12,139
ago.

396
00:12:12,140 --> 00:12:14,039
I had just had our fourth child.

397
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,029
I had four kids, nine and under.

398
00:12:16,030 --> 00:12:18,139
Craig would come home from work.

399
00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:20,219
Go to his chair, he'd

400
00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:22,079
sit, and he was done.

401
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,579
That's like all he's got.

402
00:12:23,580 --> 00:12:25,139
He definitely was having cognitive

403
00:12:25,140 --> 00:12:26,679
issues and definitely a lot of

404
00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,239
stress-related stuff, forgetting

405
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:29,619
words.

406
00:12:29,620 --> 00:12:31,459
Gretchen and Craig didn't have a

407
00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:33,379
diagnosis, and they didn't have much

408
00:12:33,380 --> 00:12:34,779
faith in conventional medicine

409
00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:36,039
either.

410
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,239
A friend of theirs in the service

411
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,259
recommended a naturopathic doctor

412
00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:41,339
who put him on various medications

413
00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,499
for his thyroid and endocrine system

414
00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:45,319
and worked with him on sleep hygiene

415
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:46,639
and nutrition.

416
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,559
Gretjen says his symptoms improved a

417
00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:50,439
bit, but after he retired from

418
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,679
the SEALs in 2016,

419
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:54,499
it was pretty clear that

420
00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:56,160
things were not getting better.

421
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:59,409
For Craig, his cognitive

422
00:12:59,410 --> 00:13:01,269
issues manifest

423
00:13:01,270 --> 00:13:02,270
as frustration.

424
00:13:03,370 --> 00:13:04,729
I mean, we have a busy life, right?

425
00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:06,049
We've got the four kids, we've got a

426
00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:07,109
ranch.

427
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:09,209
He's got, you know, a full-time job,

428
00:13:09,210 --> 00:13:10,809
all this stuff going on.

429
00:13:10,810 --> 00:13:13,389
And then the

430
00:13:13,390 --> 00:13:15,509
extension cord doesn't get

431
00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:18,089
wrapped up the right way.

432
00:13:18,090 --> 00:13:19,869
He'd fly off the handle.

433
00:13:19,870 --> 00:13:20,849
We're like, really?

434
00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:22,539
The extension cord?

435
00:13:22,540 --> 00:13:24,499
I was an emotional grenade laying in

436
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:26,419
the room, and my wife

437
00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:27,879
and kids had the pleasure of walking

438
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,139
around that grenade all day.

439
00:13:31,339 --> 00:13:32,199
Well, things started to get really,

440
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,859
really rocky in our family.

441
00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:36,139
Craig was already starting to come

442
00:13:36,140 --> 00:13:37,719
to the end of himself.

443
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,699
You know, we were just

444
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:41,619
really, really, really trying to

445
00:13:41,620 --> 00:13:42,620
save our family

446
00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:45,739
Now, suicide among

447
00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:47,409
vets is epidemic.

448
00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:48,489
Absolutely.

449
00:13:48,490 --> 00:13:50,199
Were you worried about that?

450
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,259
Um, uh,

451
00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:54,339
I wasn't really worried about that

452
00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:56,339
for a long time until

453
00:13:56,340 --> 00:13:58,999
I would say within the last

454
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,460
five years,

455
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,079
I'm assuming he talked to you about

456
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,899
it. I know there's been times

457
00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:08,399
where he's considered, um,

458
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,659
uh there have been, there were,

459
00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:11,659
there have been times in the last

460
00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:12,660
five years that

461
00:14:14,510 --> 00:14:15,890
he had me lock up the weapons.

462
00:14:17,570 --> 00:14:19,449
Craig actually had talked to me

463
00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:21,489
about suicide, but only in

464
00:14:21,490 --> 00:14:23,329
very general terms.

465
00:14:23,330 --> 00:14:24,989
He spoke about it as something vets

466
00:14:24,990 --> 00:14:26,849
like him are highly susceptible

467
00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:28,009
to.

468
00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:29,010
We don't quit ever.

469
00:14:31,270 --> 00:14:32,289
We solve problems.

470
00:14:32,290 --> 00:14:33,109
That's what we do.

471
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:34,849
That is our purpose, is solving

472
00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:35,769
problems.

473
00:14:35,770 --> 00:14:37,389
And the people that I care most

474
00:14:37,390 --> 00:14:38,869
about are those in my family.

475
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:41,109
I want to solve their problems.

476
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:42,929
I want to make sure that my

477
00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:44,969
family is safe, that danger

478
00:14:44,970 --> 00:14:46,529
and harm never look at them.

479
00:14:46,530 --> 00:14:48,890
And...

480
00:14:50,980 --> 00:14:52,799
When you realize one morning, when

481
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,819
you wake up, you look

482
00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:56,859
at the mirror and you say, my family

483
00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:57,860
has a problem.

484
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,519
And that asshole right there, that's

485
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:01,520
the problem.

486
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:03,320
I'm the problem. Then

487
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:07,749
you solve it.

488
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:09,749
You use the tools of your trade

489
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:10,789
and you solve the problem.

490
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,499
It was around this time when Craig

491
00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:26,239
woke up that morning and couldn't

492
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,159
remember Gretchen's name.

493
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,499
For him, it was a wake up call.

494
00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:32,499
For her, it about time he

495
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:33,639
woke up.

496
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,199
She had been bothering me for

497
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,999
weeks at that point, maybe months

498
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,019
actually, she had been bugging

499
00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:42,099
me saying, hey, this isn't

500
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:43,939
right and you need

501
00:15:43,940 --> 00:15:45,718
to go get fixed.

502
00:15:45,719 --> 00:15:48,519
I'm just pretty optimistic and

503
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,299
pretty solution oriented.

504
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:51,619
So like, it's like, all right, no,

505
00:15:51,620 --> 00:15:52,919
we're gonna find a way out of this.

506
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,299
We're gonna figure it out.

507
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,019
We're going to, you know, I'll

508
00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:57,579
research, I'll find something we'll

509
00:15:57,580 --> 00:15:58,779
do. You know, we'll try this and

510
00:15:58,780 --> 00:15:59,779
that and the other.

511
00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:01,879
And so she scoured the internet,

512
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,499
she networked with the spouses of

513
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:05,019
other vets, and through the

514
00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:06,939
grapevine, she started hearing about

515
00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:08,179
psilocybin.

516
00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:10,119
And that is kind of what got me

517
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,099
on the rabbit trail

518
00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:15,219
of psychedelics.

519
00:16:15,220 --> 00:16:17,079
All I want is for my family

520
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,499
to be whole.

521
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,419
So I started researching.

522
00:16:21,420 --> 00:16:24,039
And as I usually do,

523
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:25,679
I'm like, well, I am not going to

524
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,339
like just test something out on like

525
00:16:27,340 --> 00:16:28,959
my family or whatever.

526
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,059
So that summer, I

527
00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:33,999
started microdosing psilocybin.

528
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,989
It just...

529
00:16:36,990 --> 00:16:39,669
Took the edge off of the

530
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:42,759
oppression, the heaviness.

531
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,359
The rabbit trail into psychedelics

532
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,759
didn't end with psilocybin though.

533
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,379
She kept reading articles, she

534
00:16:48,380 --> 00:16:50,259
watched videos, and eventually

535
00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:52,399
she landed upon a psychedelic drug

536
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,749
that gave her hope.

537
00:16:54,750 --> 00:16:55,779
ibogaine really shoves in your face

538
00:16:55,780 --> 00:16:57,605
compared to ayahuasca.

539
00:16:57,606 --> 00:16:58,052
ibogaine.

540
00:16:58,053 --> 00:16:59,299
ibogaine is more like (clap), and

541
00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:00,860
that's why it's so good for team

542
00:17:00,861 --> 00:17:01,861
guys.

543
00:17:04,571 --> 00:17:05,799
ibogaine comes from the root of the

544
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,838
iboga plant in West Africa,

545
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,358
where it has long been used in

546
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,039
religious ceremonies.

547
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,338
From 1939 to about 1970,

548
00:17:13,339 --> 00:17:14,939
a purified version of ibogaine was

549
00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:17,179
sold in France as an antidepressant

550
00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:19,039
that could improve mood and physical

551
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,059
strength, and was used by some

552
00:17:21,060 --> 00:17:23,659
athletes to improve performance.

553
00:17:23,660 --> 00:17:25,358
In the early 1960s, it was studied

554
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,259
as a remedy for opiate cravings

555
00:17:27,260 --> 00:17:29,819
and addictions. More recently,

556
00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:31,179
it has been studied as a treatment

557
00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:33,040
for TBI and PTSD.

558
00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,189
I knew that there was research

559
00:17:36,190 --> 00:17:38,069
going on at Stanford with

560
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:39,129
vets.

561
00:17:39,130 --> 00:17:40,809
I understood, like, this looks like

562
00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:42,409
it's really helping with TBI, not

563
00:17:42,410 --> 00:17:43,549
just the emotional stuff.

564
00:17:43,550 --> 00:17:45,809
It's different than just psilocybin.

565
00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:48,549
Eventually, Gretchen learned about a

566
00:17:48,550 --> 00:17:50,309
study that scientists from Stanford

567
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:52,129
University were about to do on

568
00:17:52,130 --> 00:17:54,429
ibogaine and veterans.

569
00:17:54,430 --> 00:17:55,449
She heard about it from an

570
00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:57,469
organization called VETS,

571
00:17:57,470 --> 00:17:59,329
or Veterans Exploring Treatment

572
00:17:59,330 --> 00:18:01,129
Solutions, which was working with

573
00:18:01,130 --> 00:18:02,969
Stanford to find subjects for the

574
00:18:02,970 --> 00:18:03,809
study.

575
00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:05,589
Like I had listened to every single

576
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:07,629
thing out there before I

577
00:18:07,630 --> 00:18:09,209
proposed it to Craig.

578
00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:10,829
And to her surprise, Craig

579
00:18:10,830 --> 00:18:13,150
immediately agreed to sign up.

580
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:16,009
After the break, we'll hear exactly

581
00:18:16,010 --> 00:18:17,509
what Craig signed up for.

582
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:32,799
Welcome back to Altered States, I'm

583
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:33,800
Arielle Duhaime-Ross.

584
00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:35,919
Before the break, we heard about how

585
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,159
a former US Navy SEAL named Craig

586
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,859
started to realize that he was

587
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:41,959
having cognitive issues after almost

588
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,159
30 years in the service.

589
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:45,479
That's when his wife Gretchen got

590
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,259
him to sign up for a study where

591
00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:48,959
veterans were taking the psychedelic

592
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:49,960
ibogaine.

593
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:51,819
Here's reporter Curtis Fox with the

594
00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:52,820
rest of the story.

595
00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:58,939
In 2021, neuroscientists

596
00:18:58,940 --> 00:19:00,919
at Stanford University's Brain

597
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,659
Stimulation Lab started an

598
00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:03,679
experiment.

599
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,219
They wanted to see the effects of

600
00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:07,119
ibogaine on people with traumatic

601
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:08,779
brain injury.

602
00:19:08,780 --> 00:19:11,199
Dr. Jacob Keynan is a neuroscientist

603
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,879
in Tel Aviv who worked on the

604
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,759
Stanford experiment and was one

605
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,729
of the authors of the study.

606
00:19:16,730 --> 00:19:19,149
As someone that has researched

607
00:19:19,150 --> 00:19:21,109
post-traumatic stress for,

608
00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:23,369
I guess, about a decade now,

609
00:19:23,370 --> 00:19:25,689
the existing treatments are

610
00:19:25,690 --> 00:19:26,529
limited.

611
00:19:26,530 --> 00:19:28,289
And so people started looking for

612
00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:29,609
other options.

613
00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:30,949
And in a way, as scientists, we kind

614
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:32,329
of followed them, you know, they go,

615
00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:33,729
they went to Mexico, we knew that

616
00:19:33,730 --> 00:19:35,129
they're going to Mexico to get the

617
00:19:35,130 --> 00:19:36,949
treatment. And we said, okay,

618
00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:38,849
let's get empirical evidence that

619
00:19:38,850 --> 00:19:40,669
this actually works.

620
00:19:40,670 --> 00:19:41,989
They've been hearing anecdotally

621
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:43,809
that ibogaine was dramatically

622
00:19:43,810 --> 00:19:47,049
helping people with TBI and PTSD.

623
00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:49,529
But there were many unknowns.

624
00:19:49,530 --> 00:19:51,169
First of all, we wanted to document

625
00:19:51,170 --> 00:19:52,369
the safety of the treatment.

626
00:19:52,370 --> 00:19:54,989
We wanted to see if this has

627
00:19:54,990 --> 00:19:56,529
potential to do damage.

628
00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:58,449
There are reports in the literature

629
00:19:58,450 --> 00:20:00,669
of even death following

630
00:20:00,670 --> 00:20:02,709
ibogaine because of

631
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:03,989
a cardiotoxic effect.

632
00:20:07,376 --> 00:20:08,799
ibogaine can fatally mess with a

633
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,479
person's heart rhythm.

634
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,079
And as with a lot of schedule one

635
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,839
psychedelics, there haven't been a

636
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,759
lot Ibogain studies.

637
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,759
According to Dr. Keynan, no one

638
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,819
had yet evaluated people before

639
00:20:19,820 --> 00:20:21,619
they took Ibograine and then

640
00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:23,559
evaluated them afterwards to see

641
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,059
what kind of effect the drug may

642
00:20:25,060 --> 00:20:27,379
have had on their brains, moods,

643
00:20:27,380 --> 00:20:28,529
and behaviors.

644
00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:30,289
Yeah, so we had we had 30

645
00:20:30,290 --> 00:20:31,709
participants.

646
00:20:31,710 --> 00:20:33,689
The participants were special

647
00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:34,809
operation veterans,

648
00:20:35,950 --> 00:20:37,629
mostly Navy SEALs, I believe.

649
00:20:37,630 --> 00:20:39,729
A small sample, all guys,

650
00:20:39,730 --> 00:20:41,329
nearly all white.

651
00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:43,509
These are veterans that had a very

652
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:45,549
high load of blast

653
00:20:45,550 --> 00:20:46,749
exposures.

654
00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:48,029
That's where the traumatic brain

655
00:20:48,030 --> 00:20:49,509
injury came.

656
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:50,949
Before the study, before they did

657
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:52,869
the ibogaine treatment, those 30

658
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:54,749
special ops guys were brought to

659
00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:57,099
Stanford for testing and evaluation.

660
00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:58,939
We did a full clinical

661
00:20:58,940 --> 00:20:59,999
assessment.

662
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,029
Psychiatric test for.

663
00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:03,089
Addictions and mood disorders like

664
00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:04,189
anxiety and depression.

665
00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:05,709
We did a neuropsychological

666
00:21:05,710 --> 00:21:06,609
assessment.

667
00:21:06,610 --> 00:21:08,329
For cognitive functioning, language

668
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:10,089
and memory, they also conducted

669
00:21:10,090 --> 00:21:12,289
fMRIs to look at brain function

670
00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:14,149
and MRIs to get pictures

671
00:21:14,150 --> 00:21:16,069
of brain structure.

672
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:17,529
And all these tests were repeated

673
00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:19,269
several days after the ibogaine

674
00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:21,149
treatment and yet again a month

675
00:21:21,150 --> 00:21:22,389
later.

676
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:24,009
To take Ibogane, the special ops

677
00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:25,809
guys in the Stanford study went to

678
00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:27,789
Mexico where the drug is not

679
00:21:27,790 --> 00:21:28,739
illegal.

680
00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:30,659
We're only a few minutes from the

681
00:21:30,660 --> 00:21:32,539
airport in San Diego, about 30 or

682
00:21:32,540 --> 00:21:34,399
40 minutes before they reach our

683
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:35,639
facility.

684
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,779
Trevor Millar is a founder of Ambio

685
00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:39,639
Life Sciences, just over the

686
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,359
border in Tijuana.

687
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,959
Trevor says that in the three years

688
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,939
since they've opened, Ambio has

689
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:47,319
treated about 1,500 people.

690
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,379
I'd say the bulk of our clients have

691
00:21:49,380 --> 00:21:51,579
been veterans, and specifically

692
00:21:51,580 --> 00:21:53,829
U.S. Special Forces veterans.

693
00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:55,569
Most of these vets have come on

694
00:21:55,570 --> 00:21:56,929
their own dime.

695
00:21:56,930 --> 00:21:58,469
Of course, Craig found his way there

696
00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:00,029
with the Stanford study.

697
00:22:00,030 --> 00:22:01,649
His travel and treatment were paid

698
00:22:01,650 --> 00:22:03,389
for by a grant from VETS.

699
00:22:03,390 --> 00:22:05,449
And what I'm about to do now

700
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:07,369
is participate.

701
00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:09,709
In a Stanford University

702
00:22:09,710 --> 00:22:12,009
study of

703
00:22:12,010 --> 00:22:13,460
the psychedelic ibogaine.

704
00:22:15,150 --> 00:22:17,009
Okay, and with that in

705
00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:18,849
mind, can you tell us about

706
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,759
This is from an iPhone video

707
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,679
Gretchen made with Craig before he

708
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,979
joined the Stanford study.

709
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:27,579
Craig told me they just wanted to

710
00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:28,939
get a record of what he was like

711
00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:30,919
then, as a kind of future reference

712
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,239
point.

713
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,199
In the video, or videos I guess,

714
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,499
because they stop and start a lot,

715
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:38,239
Craig has a beard, he looks

716
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,579
uncomfortable.

717
00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:40,859
There are good days and there are

718
00:22:40,860 --> 00:22:42,839
bad days, kind of

719
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:43,840
vacillates.

720
00:22:51,510 --> 00:22:53,509
Chronic cognitive processing

721
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:55,509
problems that

722
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:56,510
cause me frustration.

723
00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:02,479
By this point, Craig suspected

724
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,359
he had TBI, but he

725
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,179
still didn't have a diagnosis, and

726
00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:07,879
deep down he thought he wasn't

727
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,739
injured enough to be admitted into

728
00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:11,119
the study.

729
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,799
Nonetheless, he flew out to Stanford

730
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,659
for the first long day of testing.

731
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:17,499
And it's like 8

732
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:19,319
p.m. And I'm talking to

733
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,399
the psychologist who's

734
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,999
assessing all the inputs.

735
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,819
And I'm like,

736
00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:26,719
all right, give it to me.

737
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:27,999
Do I need to go home now?

738
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,919
And she's like, man,

739
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,959
you're the poster child of traumatic

740
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:32,960
brain injury.

741
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,139
There was a bit of relief to say,

742
00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:39,799
holy shit, okay.

743
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,579
From an objective standpoint,

744
00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:43,639
somebody's saying, yeah, this

745
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:44,899
is not right.

746
00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:47,279
And that means maybe

747
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:48,280
it can be better.

748
00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:52,929
So Craig travels alone from Stanford

749
00:23:52,930 --> 00:23:54,889
to San Diego, then he goes

750
00:23:54,890 --> 00:23:56,609
to a hotel where a vehicle from

751
00:23:56,610 --> 00:23:58,469
Ambio is gonna pick him up, and

752
00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:00,169
four other guys participating in the

753
00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:02,729
study, guys he's never met.

754
00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:04,569
I walk up to a bunch

755
00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:06,709
of guys who look exactly like me.

756
00:24:06,710 --> 00:24:08,389
They wear clothes like me, they

757
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:10,429
stand like me they make sure

758
00:24:10,430 --> 00:24:11,869
that they've cleared all the corners

759
00:24:11,870 --> 00:24:13,449
of all the buildings around them

760
00:24:13,450 --> 00:24:15,589
just like me and they're you know

761
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:16,889
tracking everybody that's walking

762
00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:19,029
through so I make eye contact

763
00:24:19,030 --> 00:24:20,889
with them from you know 60

764
00:24:20,890 --> 00:24:22,629
yards away and I'm like yeah that's

765
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:24,069
the guy that I'm supposed to be with

766
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:25,329
because they're staring at me right

767
00:24:25,330 --> 00:24:26,269
now.

768
00:24:26,270 --> 00:24:28,269
When they get to Ambio's campus.

769
00:24:28,270 --> 00:24:29,749
The director of the facility is

770
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:30,609
there.

771
00:24:30,610 --> 00:24:32,409
The hostess of the facilities is

772
00:24:32,410 --> 00:24:34,269
there, all of the kitchen

773
00:24:34,270 --> 00:24:36,209
staff is there

774
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:38,189
all the medical staff are

775
00:24:38,190 --> 00:24:39,169
all there.

776
00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:41,009
They greet you, they shake

777
00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:42,889
your hand, give you a hug, take your

778
00:24:42,890 --> 00:24:43,890
bags from you.

779
00:24:44,660 --> 00:24:46,119
The place looks like a high-class

780
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:47,959
spa with views of the Pacific

781
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,999
Ocean, massages,

782
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,759
good food, and coaching.

783
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,499
Even before they got there, they had

784
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,639
several sessions with psychedelic

785
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,479
integration coaches from Ambio

786
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,539
to help prepare them for their

787
00:25:00,540 --> 00:25:02,499
journey, as they call it.

788
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,379
At Ambio, Trevor Miller helps

789
00:25:04,380 --> 00:25:05,739
them get ready for the drug

790
00:25:05,740 --> 00:25:07,559
experience itself.

791
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,439
My favorite metaphor to help people

792
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,239
prepare for the ibogaine journey is

793
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,179
that taking Ibogane is like

794
00:25:13,180 --> 00:25:15,139
getting on a roller coaster.

795
00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:16,899
There might be ups, there might be

796
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,219
downs, maybe a loop, maybe water

797
00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:21,159
feature, maybe a tunnel of

798
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,139
terror, but the only real

799
00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:25,299
rule of roller coasters is just

800
00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:27,299
don't try and off in the middle of

801
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:28,599
the ride.

802
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:29,919
The problem with the roller coaster

803
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,599
metaphor is that roller coaster

804
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,979
rides last only a few minutes,

805
00:25:33,980 --> 00:25:35,839
but a full dose of ibogaine can last

806
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,979
up to 24, 36,

807
00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:39,119
even 48 hours.

808
00:25:41,580 --> 00:25:43,259
The participants have been asked by

809
00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:45,079
their integration coaches to come

810
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,979
with an intention.

811
00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,039
What do they wanna focus on during

812
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,999
the ibogaine treatment?

813
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,919
For Craig, it's pretty simple.

814
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,879
He wants answers to a few

815
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:55,999
worrying questions.

816
00:25:57,510 --> 00:26:00,089
My intention that I set was,

817
00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:01,949
is there anything more?

818
00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:03,509
What do you mean by that?

819
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:05,349
I mean, is this as good as

820
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:06,589
it gets?

821
00:26:06,590 --> 00:26:09,449
Is my current lack of performance,

822
00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:11,689
my current struggle

823
00:26:11,690 --> 00:26:13,889
daily just to

824
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:15,669
get by?

825
00:26:15,670 --> 00:26:17,889
Is the overwhelming feeling

826
00:26:17,890 --> 00:26:20,009
that I'm faking it and somebody's

827
00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:21,849
gonna find me out and realize

828
00:26:21,850 --> 00:26:23,329
that I am an idiot?

829
00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:25,269
Is that really, is that all

830
00:26:25,270 --> 00:26:27,189
there is? Or is there something

831
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:28,190
more?

832
00:26:28,530 --> 00:26:30,409
On the evening of the second day,

833
00:26:30,410 --> 00:26:33,009
after a massage and a light meal,

834
00:26:33,010 --> 00:26:34,062
it's time to take the drug.

835
00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:37,349
Okay, now we're

836
00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:38,629
going to go show you the treatment

837
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:40,549
room. So they take us up there.

838
00:26:40,550 --> 00:26:42,989
I walk into this treatment room,

839
00:26:42,990 --> 00:26:44,669
it's pallets on the floor,

840
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:47,129
not beds.

841
00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:48,949
And I'm like, okay, that's a

842
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:51,289
little strange, but okay, whatever.

843
00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:53,309
I'm going to suspend my disbelief

844
00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:55,529
and we'll just deal with this.

845
00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:57,309
Craig and the other guys go back

846
00:26:57,310 --> 00:26:59,189
downstairs where they watch the

847
00:26:59,190 --> 00:27:01,619
sun setting over the Pacific Ocean.

848
00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:03,099
I take the first dose.

849
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,259
It's a pill, the first of four.

850
00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:07,239
We're together as a group of

851
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,119
guys where at this point we've

852
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,999
bonded, we've told each other our

853
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,039
stories, feeling pretty comfortable

854
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,059
with this.

855
00:27:14,060 --> 00:27:16,859
The medical staff is there with us.

856
00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:18,619
And they're giving an IV drip with

857
00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:20,119
magnesium, which is thought to

858
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:21,099
protect against the heart

859
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:22,679
arrhythmias that ibogaine can

860
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:23,739
trigger.

861
00:27:23,740 --> 00:27:26,249
They're also wired up with EKGs.

862
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:28,129
They're going to monitor our pulse,

863
00:27:28,130 --> 00:27:29,629
our respiration, our heart rate, and

864
00:27:29,630 --> 00:27:31,569
our temperature for the next

865
00:27:31,570 --> 00:27:32,949
24 to 36 hours.

866
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:35,149
So we're wired up already.

867
00:27:35,150 --> 00:27:36,769
So I'm standing there talking to

868
00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:38,789
these folks and they say, hey,

869
00:27:38,790 --> 00:27:40,629
if you start to feel any

870
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:42,509
effects, if anything feels

871
00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:43,950
a little off of normal,

872
00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:46,929
we'll escort you upstairs, lay

873
00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:48,809
down on the pallet and you'll begin

874
00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:49,810
your journey.

875
00:27:50,270 --> 00:27:51,769
It takes a while for Craig to start

876
00:27:51,770 --> 00:27:53,429
feeling anything.

877
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:54,429
The other guys have already gone

878
00:27:54,430 --> 00:27:56,789
upstairs to the treatment room.

879
00:27:56,790 --> 00:27:58,949
Craig takes a second pill.

880
00:27:58,950 --> 00:28:00,529
He's still not really feeling it,

881
00:28:00,530 --> 00:28:02,149
but out of curiosity, he heads

882
00:28:02,150 --> 00:28:04,069
upstairs and sits down on

883
00:28:04,070 --> 00:28:05,070
his palate.

884
00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:07,109
They have this music in the

885
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:08,110
background.

886
00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:10,509
It's a playlist made specifically

887
00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:12,889
for ibogaine rituals.

888
00:28:12,890 --> 00:28:14,729
Sitting on his palate, Craig takes

889
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:17,629
his third and fourth doses.

890
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:19,689
He still doesn't feel anything.

891
00:28:19,690 --> 00:28:21,089
So he gets up to go to the bathroom.

892
00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:23,669
The protocol is to go with a staff

893
00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:25,289
member because when the ibogaine

894
00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:28,029
hits, you become ataxic,

895
00:28:28,030 --> 00:28:29,509
you lose motor control.

896
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:30,499
So they...

897
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:32,019
Help me stand up.

898
00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:32,959
I'm fine.

899
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,539
Help me walk into the restroom.

900
00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:36,379
I'm Fine.

901
00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:37,259
Wash my hands.

902
00:28:37,260 --> 00:28:38,139
I'm, fine.

903
00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:39,779
Turn to walk out of the restroom, I

904
00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:40,780
ain't fine.

905
00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,399
It's like I turned my head to

906
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,519
walk out and the whole world just

907
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,119
kept turning.

908
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,120
So I'm like, all right,

909
00:28:51,060 --> 00:28:52,080
now it's time to lay down.

910
00:28:59,370 --> 00:29:01,329
Back in my bed, staring at the

911
00:29:01,330 --> 00:29:02,189
ceiling.

912
00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:03,349
Music's still going.

913
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:05,989
It's been an hour and a half.

914
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:08,189
This guy beside me,

915
00:29:08,190 --> 00:29:10,129
he's like, he just screams

916
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:12,149
at the top of his

917
00:29:12,150 --> 00:29:14,189
lungs. He's like for the love of

918
00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:16,369
God, change the f- sound

919
00:29:16,370 --> 00:29:18,030
track. God damn it.

920
00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:21,949
That's the one time that has ever

921
00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:22,789
happened.

922
00:29:22,790 --> 00:29:24,829
I remember who said it, but

923
00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:26,309
yeah, we just changed it.

924
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:27,469
Whatever. It's not that big a deal.

925
00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:29,029
It was going to switch to a softer

926
00:29:29,030 --> 00:29:30,609
music shortly thereafter.

927
00:29:32,190 --> 00:29:34,309
By now, Craig is in the grip of

928
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:35,310
ibogaine. He vomits.

929
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,719
My stomach's cramping up here.

930
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,819
I'm like, I am officially miserable

931
00:29:40,820 --> 00:29:43,079
right now. And I'm gonna be like,

932
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,199
I volunteered for this?

933
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,759
This is not fun.

934
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,679
I'm not enjoying this experience at

935
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:49,680
all.

936
00:29:56,810 --> 00:29:58,549
He learns later that the other four

937
00:29:58,550 --> 00:30:00,789
guys were vomiting too.

938
00:30:00,790 --> 00:30:02,529
The music serves the very practical

939
00:30:02,530 --> 00:30:04,469
purpose of drowning out the

940
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:06,209
retching sounds.

941
00:30:06,210 --> 00:30:08,389
After purging, Craig settles

942
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:10,289
in for his long roller coaster

943
00:30:10,290 --> 00:30:11,290
ride.

944
00:30:13,910 --> 00:30:15,989
So what happens physically to

945
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:16,990
someone taking ibogaine?

946
00:30:17,910 --> 00:30:20,199
I put that question to Dr. Keynan.

947
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,099
It has a very wide

948
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,519
effect on the brain.

949
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:25,519
He says it affects

950
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:25,839
neurotransmitters.

951
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,719
Like dopamine,

952
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,099
serotonin, glutamate.

953
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:30,719
He says it can have vivid visual

954
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,179
effects, though he wouldn't call

955
00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:33,719
them hallucinations.

956
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,439
ibogaine, he says, taps into some of

957
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,439
the same receptors that opioids

958
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,019
and MDMA do.

959
00:30:39,020 --> 00:30:40,899
So basically,

960
00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:42,739
almost any human function that

961
00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:44,579
you can think of, ibogaine would

962
00:30:44,580 --> 00:30:46,339
have some influence on that.

963
00:30:46,340 --> 00:30:48,400
And it induces a state,

964
00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:51,219
a wakeful dream-like state.

965
00:30:51,220 --> 00:30:53,259
Think about dreaming and being aware

966
00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:54,500
to the fact that you're dreaming.

967
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,159
So Craig is lying there on his

968
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,979
pallet, largely unaware

969
00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:05,729
of the passing of time.

970
00:31:05,730 --> 00:31:07,689
It's kind of this low-key,

971
00:31:07,690 --> 00:31:09,069
kind of normal experience for me,

972
00:31:09,070 --> 00:31:10,070
and I'm thinking.

973
00:31:11,690 --> 00:31:13,629
So I've got like eight to 12

974
00:31:13,630 --> 00:31:14,549
hours of this.

975
00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:15,550
Awesome.

976
00:31:16,060 --> 00:31:17,799
He said his mind went back to the

977
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,619
questions he came in with.

978
00:31:19,620 --> 00:31:21,019
Is this all there is?

979
00:31:21,020 --> 00:31:22,879
Is he gonna continue to struggle in

980
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:23,969
daily life?

981
00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:26,269
I got to sit with that question

982
00:31:26,270 --> 00:31:28,149
in a comfortably long period of

983
00:31:28,150 --> 00:31:29,150
time.

984
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,359
And his conversation with himself

985
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:32,820
went something like this.

986
00:31:34,130 --> 00:31:35,969
Yeah, you're struggling to

987
00:31:35,970 --> 00:31:37,789
perform, but did

988
00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:39,749
you expect it to be easy?

989
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:41,609
No, I've never expected anything to

990
00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:42,729
be easily.

991
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:44,209
Are you really that stupid?

992
00:31:44,210 --> 00:31:45,769
Well, no, I'm not stupid.

993
00:31:45,770 --> 00:31:47,209
I just, I was really struggling to

994
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:48,449
express myself.

995
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:50,369
So I can't describe

996
00:31:50,370 --> 00:31:52,149
things the way I want to people and

997
00:31:52,150 --> 00:31:53,150
that's frustrating.

998
00:31:54,050 --> 00:31:55,589
Is that catastrophic?

999
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:57,170
No, not really, I guess.

1000
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,979
Somewhere in that dark of

1001
00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:05,179
night, it felt like

1002
00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:07,619
somebody had pulled a

1003
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:09,799
knife, three of them,

1004
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,939
out of my skull, out my

1005
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:13,159
brain.

1006
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,279
It felt like if you've ever had a

1007
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,519
Charlie horse, I felt like

1008
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,579
I had had a charlie horse in

1009
00:32:19,580 --> 00:32:21,199
my brain, if that makes any sense,

1010
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,599
and I know it doesn't, for like 20

1011
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:23,579
years.

1012
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:25,079
And it just relaxed.

1013
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,919
And I

1014
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,719
felt this like, like

1015
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,389
profound.

1016
00:32:31,390 --> 00:32:32,929
I wouldn't call it peace, but I

1017
00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:35,089
would call it profound relaxation,

1018
00:32:36,490 --> 00:32:38,060
where I was just like, ah,

1019
00:32:39,250 --> 00:32:40,250
I can deal.

1020
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,119
The next day, it's late morning, if

1021
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,219
not already afternoon,

1022
00:32:46,220 --> 00:32:48,179
to his surprise, everyone else has

1023
00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:50,219
left the room and Craig starts to

1024
00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:51,999
feel like himself again.

1025
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,939
He rises from his pallet, he goes

1026
00:32:53,940 --> 00:32:55,939
downstairs, he goes back to his

1027
00:32:55,940 --> 00:32:58,039
room and he begins what they call

1028
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,898
the gray day.

1029
00:32:59,899 --> 00:33:01,919
Everybody feels pretty rough the day

1030
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:02,920
after ibogaine.

1031
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,559
You're just depleted.

1032
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,959
The night before, all of your

1033
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,479
neurotransmitters would have been

1034
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,339
firing on full blast, and the next

1035
00:33:09,340 --> 00:33:10,519
day you've got nothing.

1036
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,379
So you're just about as tired as

1037
00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:13,919
you've ever been, but you can't

1038
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,919
quite fall asleep, and then

1039
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,399
eventually you get some sleep, and

1040
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,739
then it's after you get some sleep

1041
00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:20,319
that you really start feeling the

1042
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,320
benefits of ibogaine.

1043
00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:24,469
I walk outside onto

1044
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:26,809
the beautiful balcony

1045
00:33:26,810 --> 00:33:28,869
overlooking the ocean and

1046
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:30,649
look off into the hillside and the

1047
00:33:30,650 --> 00:33:32,689
day before, I couldn't

1048
00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:34,629
tell what the

1049
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:35,930
livestock was in that pasture.

1050
00:33:37,010 --> 00:33:38,309
I walked out that morning, I looked

1051
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:40,129
over there and I'm looking at

1052
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:42,149
the cattle on the hillside and

1053
00:33:42,150 --> 00:33:44,129
I can see the cattle and I see

1054
00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:46,749
them chewing. I'm like,

1055
00:33:46,750 --> 00:33:48,060
yeah, my eyesight's better.

1056
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,099
To my knowledge, there's no

1057
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:52,679
scientific evidence that ibogaine

1058
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,219
can improve a person's eyesight,

1059
00:33:55,220 --> 00:33:57,219
but Craig said that he had no

1060
00:33:57,220 --> 00:33:59,239
more use for his expensive Oakley

1061
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,579
eyeglasses.

1062
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:02,519
This seemed far-fetched to me, but I

1063
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,099
made a mental note to ask a

1064
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:05,899
scientist about this.

1065
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:07,759
After five days and four nights in

1066
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,779
Mexico, Craig flies back to

1067
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:11,579
Stanford for the second round of

1068
00:34:11,580 --> 00:34:13,579
psychological and cognitive tests

1069
00:34:13,580 --> 00:34:15,959
for the MRI and the fMRI.

1070
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,839
The first time, he found

1071
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,658
it utterly exhausting.

1072
00:34:19,659 --> 00:34:20,959
And the second time through, I was

1073
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,678
like, okay, hey, I'm ready to go

1074
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:23,819
grab the guys and let's go get

1075
00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:24,820
dinner together.

1076
00:34:25,380 --> 00:34:27,158
More energy post ibogaine.

1077
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:28,839
And there's another effect he

1078
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:29,649
notices.

1079
00:34:29,650 --> 00:34:31,509
Had a day off before I had

1080
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:32,829
to get on the plane to go home.

1081
00:34:32,830 --> 00:34:35,488
So I'm in Palo Alto, go out,

1082
00:34:35,489 --> 00:34:36,869
went to a coffee shop.

1083
00:34:36,870 --> 00:34:38,769
Craig says he was a four pot a

1084
00:34:38,770 --> 00:34:41,369
day coffee drinker, straight black.

1085
00:34:41,370 --> 00:34:42,370
Sat down and I

1086
00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:44,698
couldn't finish a whole cup of

1087
00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:46,218
coffee. I'm about halfway through or

1088
00:34:46,219 --> 00:34:47,479
not even halfway through a cup of

1089
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:48,658
coffee and I'm just like, I really

1090
00:34:48,659 --> 00:34:49,928
don't need this.

1091
00:34:49,929 --> 00:34:51,549
So an old habit appears to have

1092
00:34:51,550 --> 00:34:53,428
fallen by the wayside, which

1093
00:34:53,429 --> 00:34:55,448
might speak to ibogaine's reputation

1094
00:34:55,449 --> 00:34:57,029
as a cure for addictions.

1095
00:34:58,070 --> 00:35:00,349
Then Craig flies back to Colorado,

1096
00:35:00,350 --> 00:35:02,889
back home to Gretchen and his kids.

1097
00:35:02,890 --> 00:35:04,769
It was a bummer because

1098
00:35:04,770 --> 00:35:06,829
we had had some issues while he was

1099
00:35:06,830 --> 00:35:08,829
gone, kid issues,

1100
00:35:08,830 --> 00:35:10,649
right? And I had to tell him

1101
00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:12,309
immediately when he got home, I'm

1102
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:14,209
like, I just, I

1103
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:15,829
was just sick because I wanted him

1104
00:35:15,830 --> 00:35:17,889
to have like a week or whatever of

1105
00:35:17,890 --> 00:35:18,789
just bliss.

1106
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:20,109
We don't live a life of bliss, it's

1107
00:35:20,110 --> 00:35:21,249
not reality.

1108
00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:22,829
So he had to come right back into

1109
00:35:22,830 --> 00:35:23,599
reality.

1110
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:24,939
Something happened with one of the

1111
00:35:24,940 --> 00:35:26,059
kids and she thought that it was

1112
00:35:26,060 --> 00:35:27,379
going to be a huge blow up.

1113
00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:29,119
And she's like, I wanted this

1114
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,839
experience, you coming home to be so

1115
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:31,839
I'm like, honey, it's okay.

1116
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:32,779
I'm fine.

1117
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:33,979
But it's not okay.

1118
00:35:33,980 --> 00:35:35,590
Because I went, I'm like, Honey,

1119
00:35:36,820 --> 00:35:37,820
I am fine.

1120
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:39,659
Let's figure out what's wrong with

1121
00:35:39,660 --> 00:35:41,339
the kid and why the kid's upset.

1122
00:35:41,340 --> 00:35:43,579
Let's worry about that.

1123
00:35:43,580 --> 00:35:44,840
And she's just like,

1124
00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:47,540
wait a minute.

1125
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:50,079
So yeah, definitely right

1126
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,159
at first, there was absolutely

1127
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,019
a very obvious, a

1128
00:35:54,020 --> 00:35:55,539
lot more bandwidth.

1129
00:35:55,540 --> 00:35:57,619
She's expecting her husband

1130
00:35:57,620 --> 00:36:00,319
to come home, only he doesn't.

1131
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,279
This new dude shows up.

1132
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,199
A month later, this new dude goes

1133
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,319
back to Stanford for the third and

1134
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,659
final round of in-person evaluation

1135
00:36:08,660 --> 00:36:10,359
and testing.

1136
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,139
Gretchen says his new chill lasts

1137
00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:13,329
for a while.

1138
00:36:13,330 --> 00:36:15,430
He was doing so much better.

1139
00:36:16,450 --> 00:36:18,389
It was what I wanted when

1140
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:19,569
he went down there. I wanted him to

1141
00:36:19,570 --> 00:36:20,569
be doing better.

1142
00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:21,529
I wanted him to be happy.

1143
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:23,369
I wanted him to be engaged.

1144
00:36:23,370 --> 00:36:25,249
But that literally, that was

1145
00:36:25,250 --> 00:36:27,529
a horrible time for me.

1146
00:36:27,530 --> 00:36:28,729
It was horrible.

1147
00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:31,009
It was probably one of the lowest

1148
00:36:31,010 --> 00:36:33,529
times I've ever experienced.

1149
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:34,569
Why?

1150
00:36:34,570 --> 00:36:36,609
Why, I think because it took away

1151
00:36:36,610 --> 00:36:38,569
his part of what I

1152
00:36:38,570 --> 00:36:39,469
was experiencing.

1153
00:36:39,470 --> 00:36:41,529
And it shone the spotlight

1154
00:36:41,530 --> 00:36:43,129
on my part.

1155
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:44,989
And some of the deficits within

1156
00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:46,929
myself or some of just the areas

1157
00:36:46,930 --> 00:36:48,949
that were non-functional within

1158
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:49,769
me.

1159
00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:52,349
And so that was a real struggle.

1160
00:36:52,350 --> 00:36:53,589
And I'm not alone in this.

1161
00:36:53,590 --> 00:36:55,649
This comes up a lot with the wives

1162
00:36:55,650 --> 00:36:57,949
of the people who do the treatment,

1163
00:36:57,950 --> 00:36:59,889
that we spend so

1164
00:36:59,890 --> 00:37:01,829
much of our time focused on the

1165
00:37:01,830 --> 00:37:03,489
guys, and they're very much the

1166
00:37:03,490 --> 00:37:04,389
low-hanging fruit.

1167
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:06,629
It's very obvious what

1168
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:08,589
their issues are, what their part

1169
00:37:08,590 --> 00:37:10,489
in the whole dynamic is.

1170
00:37:10,490 --> 00:37:12,629
And so that can often

1171
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:13,519
mask.

1172
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,379
What our part is or what's

1173
00:37:15,380 --> 00:37:16,579
going on with us.

1174
00:37:16,580 --> 00:37:17,839
It's like, oh, fine.

1175
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,139
Like, yeah, that's fine and dandy.

1176
00:37:20,140 --> 00:37:22,039
Like you went and you did drugs

1177
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,999
in Mexico and you feel great

1178
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,780
and we still feel like crap.

1179
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:31,059
So I

1180
00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:33,269
went down at the end of March.

1181
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:35,529
In the spring of 2022,

1182
00:37:35,530 --> 00:37:37,369
Gretchen went down to Mexico and

1183
00:37:37,370 --> 00:37:39,789
had her own ibogaine experience.

1184
00:37:39,790 --> 00:37:41,769
She says that like Craig, before she

1185
00:37:41,770 --> 00:37:43,549
went, she met with her integration

1186
00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:45,869
coach and set out her goals.

1187
00:37:45,870 --> 00:37:48,049
So my intention was I

1188
00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:49,949
just wanted to know what was the

1189
00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:52,209
truth. I wanted to know why

1190
00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:53,909
these hang-ups, why that hang-up.

1191
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:55,549
What I thought the truth was that I

1192
00:37:55,550 --> 00:37:58,029
needed to see was the

1193
00:37:58,030 --> 00:38:01,089
ugly parts or the bad parts.

1194
00:38:01,090 --> 00:38:03,289
What I came out of there was I

1195
00:38:03,290 --> 00:38:05,149
didn't need to know the truth about

1196
00:38:05,150 --> 00:38:07,089
anything bad about myself.

1197
00:38:07,090 --> 00:38:08,969
I needed the truth about the good

1198
00:38:08,970 --> 00:38:10,809
about myself, I came

1199
00:38:10,810 --> 00:38:12,569
out of there feeling and knowing was

1200
00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:14,669
that Yeah, we all have dark

1201
00:38:14,670 --> 00:38:16,569
in us, but the light so

1202
00:38:16,570 --> 00:38:18,949
far overshadows the dark.

1203
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:21,069
I felt like definitely the

1204
00:38:21,070 --> 00:38:23,169
negative self-talk, the chatter,

1205
00:38:23,170 --> 00:38:25,789
the shame, the mom guilt,

1206
00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:27,449
just a release of that.

1207
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:31,529
So Craig and Gretchen both had

1208
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:33,889
powerful and personally meaningful

1209
00:38:33,890 --> 00:38:35,789
ibogaine experiences.

1210
00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:37,209
So much so that Craig took a

1211
00:38:37,210 --> 00:38:39,009
part-time job advocating for

1212
00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:40,929
veterans access to psychedelic

1213
00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:42,629
assisted therapy.

1214
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:45,049
But as positive as they are,

1215
00:38:45,050 --> 00:38:47,129
everything Craig and Gretchen say is

1216
00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:48,530
just anecdotal.

1217
00:38:49,550 --> 00:38:51,169
To really establish that Ibograine

1218
00:38:51,170 --> 00:38:52,649
is safe and effective in the

1219
00:38:52,650 --> 00:38:55,169
treatment of TBI, PTSD,

1220
00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:57,249
anxiety, or anything else,

1221
00:38:57,250 --> 00:38:59,069
We need a lot more research,

1222
00:38:59,070 --> 00:39:01,149
more scientific evidence.

1223
00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:02,889
Dr. Keynan and his colleagues in the

1224
00:39:02,890 --> 00:39:04,349
Stanford study were trying to

1225
00:39:04,350 --> 00:39:06,049
establish objective measurements

1226
00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:07,909
from their observational studies

1227
00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:10,129
and for their MRIs

1228
00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:11,689
and fMRIs.

1229
00:39:11,690 --> 00:39:13,689
The MRI study has yet to be publicly

1230
00:39:13,690 --> 00:39:14,819
released.

1231
00:39:14,820 --> 00:39:16,819
You know, I heard from my colleagues

1232
00:39:16,820 --> 00:39:18,339
that we're doing the assessments

1233
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:20,259
that it's going pretty well,

1234
00:39:20,260 --> 00:39:22,139
but I've been there before.

1235
00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:24,059
And Dr. Keynan's job was

1236
00:39:24,060 --> 00:39:25,759
to crunch the data from all the

1237
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,519
psychological and cognitive tests

1238
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:28,669
they did.

1239
00:39:28,670 --> 00:39:30,729
You know, I've been doing clinical

1240
00:39:30,730 --> 00:39:32,409
research and a lot of times you hear

1241
00:39:32,410 --> 00:39:34,269
from patients, from clinicians,

1242
00:39:34,270 --> 00:39:35,749
yeah, this really helped.

1243
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:37,669
But when you look at the data as a

1244
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:39,349
whole, you start seeing it's not as

1245
00:39:39,350 --> 00:39:41,249
clear cut as you wished

1246
00:39:41,250 --> 00:39:42,769
it would be.

1247
00:39:42,770 --> 00:39:44,729
And here, at first, I

1248
00:39:44,730 --> 00:39:46,569
couldn't believe the results that I

1249
00:39:46,570 --> 00:39:47,489
saw.

1250
00:39:47,490 --> 00:39:49,909
Dr. Keynan re-crunched the numbers.

1251
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:52,469
I couldn't believe what I'm seeing.

1252
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:54,549
100%, all of the participants

1253
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:56,809
had what we call a

1254
00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:58,590
clinically meaningful response.

1255
00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:01,929
TBI symptoms had decreased,

1256
00:40:01,930 --> 00:40:04,989
on average, by more than 80%.

1257
00:40:04,990 --> 00:40:06,989
And if you look at remission,

1258
00:40:06,990 --> 00:40:09,649
86% remission means that 86%

1259
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:11,529
of our sample at

1260
00:40:11,530 --> 00:40:13,749
the one month follow-up

1261
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:15,749
point clinically did

1262
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:16,825
not have PTSD anymore.

1263
00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:21,019
Their findings were published in

1264
00:40:21,020 --> 00:40:22,859
Nature Medicine in January of

1265
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:24,759
this year, but are the findings

1266
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,579
too good to be true?

1267
00:40:26,580 --> 00:40:27,839
Possibly.

1268
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,719
As the researchers themselves

1269
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:31,559
acknowledge, their sample

1270
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,279
size was small, it wasn't diverse,

1271
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,939
their subjects had coaching therapy

1272
00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:37,439
along with ibogaine, and they

1273
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,999
couldn't separate out the effects of

1274
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:39,939
that.

1275
00:40:39,940 --> 00:40:41,639
There was no control group, subjects

1276
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,399
who didn't take Ibogain, to compare

1277
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:44,519
with the ones who did.

1278
00:40:45,980 --> 00:40:47,639
There's likely some expectation

1279
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:48,499
bias.

1280
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:49,979
If you believe something is going to

1281
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:51,899
help you, you're more likely to be

1282
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:52,900
helped.

1283
00:40:54,319 --> 00:40:55,279
I don't think like, you know, we

1284
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,439
have a hundred percent response,

1285
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,159
eighty-six percent remission.

1286
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,059
I don't think it could all

1287
00:41:01,060 --> 00:41:03,719
be explained by expectation bias,

1288
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:05,639
but that's something we need

1289
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:06,640
to rule out.

1290
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,779
In other words, he's saying that

1291
00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:10,559
more studies are needed, more

1292
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,559
studies on subjects who haven't been

1293
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,439
primed by their colleagues, their

1294
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,279
spouses, by online videos and

1295
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,199
interviews, to think that the

1296
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,119
drug they're about to take will heal

1297
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:21,259
them.

1298
00:41:21,260 --> 00:41:22,879
We need studies that include a

1299
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,679
placebo group so that subjects

1300
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,239
really don't know if they're taking

1301
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:28,299
the drug or a placebo,

1302
00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:29,919
which is hard to pull off with a

1303
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,119
psychedelic drug that lasts for 24

1304
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:33,120
hours.

1305
00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:36,279
What about Craig's claim of improved

1306
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,559
eyesight after taking ibogaine?

1307
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,379
I expected Dr. Keynan to dismiss

1308
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:42,529
this possibility outright.

1309
00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:43,769
That's actually something I

1310
00:41:43,770 --> 00:41:45,349
neglected to mention.

1311
00:41:45,350 --> 00:41:47,449
So ibogaine increases the

1312
00:41:47,450 --> 00:41:49,009
transcription of neurotrophic

1313
00:41:49,010 --> 00:41:50,929
factors, substances that

1314
00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:52,829
cause cell

1315
00:41:52,830 --> 00:41:54,069
regeneration.

1316
00:41:54,070 --> 00:41:57,009
You know, something has to explain

1317
00:41:57,010 --> 00:41:58,769
the magnitude of the clinical

1318
00:41:58,770 --> 00:41:59,549
effects.

1319
00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:01,029
I wouldn't be surprised to see that

1320
00:42:01,030 --> 00:42:02,030
it's true.

1321
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,679
But Dr. Keenan said he would want to

1322
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,259
see the results across the whole

1323
00:42:05,260 --> 00:42:06,939
group of subjects.

1324
00:42:06,940 --> 00:42:08,859
So there's still no proof yet that

1325
00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:10,759
ibogaine improves vision.

1326
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,599
In any case, I think it's safe to

1327
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,419
say that Craig had a heavy dose

1328
00:42:14,420 --> 00:42:16,359
of expectation bias going

1329
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,639
into the study.

1330
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,839
So did Gretchen after seeing Craig's

1331
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,119
improvement.

1332
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,959
So it surprised me to hear from

1333
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,159
each of them separately a

1334
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,039
kind of modesty about what

1335
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,460
ibogaine could do for people.

1336
00:42:30,570 --> 00:42:32,769
I think ibogaine is an amazing

1337
00:42:32,770 --> 00:42:34,596
tool to be used in a

1338
00:42:34,597 --> 00:42:35,597
toolbox.

1339
00:42:39,650 --> 00:42:41,589
I don't think it's the Swiss

1340
00:42:41,590 --> 00:42:42,849
Army knife.

1341
00:42:42,850 --> 00:42:44,849
I do not think that

1342
00:42:44,850 --> 00:42:46,809
it is a standalone, that it's

1343
00:42:46,810 --> 00:42:48,189
going to do the trick if you don't

1344
00:42:48,190 --> 00:42:49,190
do the work.

1345
00:42:49,690 --> 00:42:51,629
This medicine is a breacher charge

1346
00:42:51,630 --> 00:42:53,729
into your psyche

1347
00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:55,709
or problems that you

1348
00:42:55,710 --> 00:42:56,710
have.

1349
00:42:57,150 --> 00:42:59,029
Now you still have to clear the

1350
00:42:59,030 --> 00:43:00,129
house.

1351
00:43:00,130 --> 00:43:01,429
You still have go in there.

1352
00:43:01,430 --> 00:43:03,789
You still to engage the

1353
00:43:03,790 --> 00:43:05,709
terrorists and you

1354
00:43:05,710 --> 00:43:07,110
still to rescue the hostages.

1355
00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:10,039
We're not, I mean, we're not out of

1356
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:10,999
the woods.

1357
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,919
There's still a lot of

1358
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,979
work to be done, and the healing

1359
00:43:15,980 --> 00:43:18,579
that helps the veteran

1360
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:20,659
doesn't always help the

1361
00:43:20,660 --> 00:43:22,679
family, but that

1362
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,439
doesn't mean that the veteran

1363
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:25,440
shouldn't be helped.

1364
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:29,399
If you or someone you know is in

1365
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,519
crisis, dial 988

1366
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,519
to speak with a trained listener via

1367
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,339
the suicide and crisis lifeline.

1368
00:43:36,340 --> 00:43:37,939
This episode was reported and

1369
00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:39,400
produced by Curtis Fox.

1370
00:43:43,450 --> 00:43:45,409
This was the last episode of our

1371
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:47,409
very first season.

1372
00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:48,709
So keep an eye out for what we have

1373
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:49,869
coming up next.

1374
00:43:49,870 --> 00:43:51,809
But in the meantime, if you want

1375
00:43:51,810 --> 00:43:53,469
to continue to engage with our work,

1376
00:43:53,470 --> 00:43:55,289
you can find me on most social media

1377
00:43:55,290 --> 00:43:57,669
platforms at ADRS.

1378
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:59,469
And you can the UC Berkeley Center

1379
00:43:59,470 --> 00:44:01,749
for the Science of Psychedelics at

1380
00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:03,109
SciPsychedelics.

1381
00:44:03,110 --> 00:44:05,069
That's S-C-I, psychedelics,

1382
00:44:05,070 --> 00:44:07,049
one word, as well as on

1383
00:44:07,050 --> 00:44:08,649
the newsletter, the microdose, which

1384
00:44:08,650 --> 00:44:10,349
is on Substack.

1385
00:44:10,350 --> 00:44:11,709
All right, roll the rest of the

1386
00:44:11,710 --> 00:44:13,229
credits. And thank you for

1387
00:44:13,230 --> 00:44:14,230
listening.

1388
00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:17,579
Altered States is a production of

1389
00:44:17,580 --> 00:44:19,079
the UC Berkeley Center for the

1390
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,679
Science of Psychedelics and PRX.

1391
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,799
Adizah Eghan is our senior editor.

1392
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,119
Jennie Cataldo is our Senior

1393
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,079
Producer.

1394
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,959
Our Associate Producer is Cassady

1395
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,099
Rosenblum.

1396
00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:30,539
Our Audio Engineers are Tommy

1397
00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:32,999
Bazarian and Terence Bernardo.

1398
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,010
Fact Checking by Graham Hacia.

1399
00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:36,819
Rotating BCSP Script Readers are

1400
00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:38,619
Michael Pollen, Michael Silver, and

1401
00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:39,779
Bob Jesse.

1402
00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:41,479
Our Executive Producers are Jocelyn

1403
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,179
Gonzales and Malia Wollan.

1404
00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:45,239
And our project manager is Edwin

1405
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:46,259
Ochoa.

1406
00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:47,350
I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross.

1407
00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:50,199
Be sure to subscribe, rate, and

1408
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,939
review Altered States wherever you

1409
00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:52,940
get your podcasts.

1410
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,419
Most well-known psychedelics remain

1411
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illegal around the world, including

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the United States, where it is

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a criminal offense to manufacture,

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possess, dispense, or supply

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most psychedelics with few

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exceptions.

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Altered states does not recommend or

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encourage the use of psychedelics or

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offer instructions in their use.