1 00:00:03,100 --> 00:00:04,519 Hey, it's Arielle. 2 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:06,459 We decided to make this, our final 3 00:00:06,460 --> 00:00:08,639 episode of the season, a kind of 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:09,979 PSA. 5 00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:11,319 While reporting our last episode in 6 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:12,879 Utah, we started hearing stories 7 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,759 from people who'd experienced harm 8 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,939 in the psychedelic scene there. 9 00:00:16,940 --> 00:00:18,379 And given how fast the psychedelics 10 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:19,819 church movement is growing in this 11 00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:21,839 country, we wanted to just 12 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,719 stop and ask, what would 13 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,479 it take to minimize that harm? 14 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,459 This is Altered States. 15 00:00:28,460 --> 00:00:29,799 Cassady Rosenblum takes it from 16 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:30,800 here. 17 00:00:32,460 --> 00:00:34,419 Last episode, I reported on the 18 00:00:34,420 --> 00:00:36,359 legal battles of one of Utah's 19 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:37,579 newest psychedelic churches. 20 00:00:40,010 --> 00:00:41,489 I've been to Utah a bunch over the 21 00:00:41,490 --> 00:00:43,009 last several years to report on 22 00:00:43,010 --> 00:00:44,809 psychedelics. 23 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:46,509 And for the most part, I hear so 24 00:00:46,510 --> 00:00:48,289 many positive stories of genuine 25 00:00:48,290 --> 00:00:49,549 healing. 26 00:00:49,550 --> 00:00:51,129 But I've also started hearing a 27 00:00:51,130 --> 00:00:52,949 second kind of story about 28 00:00:52,950 --> 00:00:55,069 psychedelic facilitators, 29 00:00:55,070 --> 00:00:56,629 inside and outside of the church 30 00:00:56,630 --> 00:00:58,929 setting, who are sexually, 31 00:00:58,930 --> 00:01:00,689 financially, or psychologically 32 00:01:00,690 --> 00:01:02,110 abusing participants. 33 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:05,348 And they're doing this while people 34 00:01:05,349 --> 00:01:07,069 are in the midst of a powerful 35 00:01:07,070 --> 00:01:08,409 mind-altering journey. 36 00:01:10,150 --> 00:01:12,469 It's hard to describe how terrifying 37 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:14,469 this is, unless you've been 38 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:16,409 in an altered state. 39 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:17,909 When you're on psychedelics, you can 40 00:01:17,910 --> 00:01:19,809 become vulnerable, kind of 41 00:01:19,810 --> 00:01:21,369 like a baby. 42 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:23,029 Even getting a glass of water could 43 00:01:23,030 --> 00:01:25,229 feel like a Herculean task, 44 00:01:25,230 --> 00:01:27,249 let alone rebuffing a sexual advance 45 00:01:27,250 --> 00:01:29,530 or some other mind manipulation. 46 00:01:32,290 --> 00:01:33,809 This kind of abuse can happen 47 00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:36,109 anywhere, but it is especially 48 00:01:36,110 --> 00:01:37,789 rampant in Utah, where the 49 00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:39,309 demographic using these substances 50 00:01:39,310 --> 00:01:42,209 are typically former Mormons. 51 00:01:42,210 --> 00:01:44,209 And many of them say they are used 52 00:01:44,210 --> 00:01:45,349 to giving their power away. 53 00:01:49,030 --> 00:01:51,169 Yeah, leaving Mormonism is 54 00:01:51,170 --> 00:01:53,569 hard because every 55 00:01:53,570 --> 00:01:55,569 action you take is 56 00:01:55,570 --> 00:01:57,509 built around the beliefs of 57 00:01:57,510 --> 00:01:58,469 Mormonism. 58 00:01:58,470 --> 00:02:00,129 Am I supposed to be doing this? 59 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:02,509 Does God want me to do this? 60 00:02:02,510 --> 00:02:05,069 How will it reflect on the church? 61 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:07,949 So when you leave that, 62 00:02:07,950 --> 00:02:09,668 you're kind of a babe in the woods, 63 00:02:09,669 --> 00:02:10,909 you kind of lost. 64 00:02:10,910 --> 00:02:12,749 And, in my 65 00:02:12,750 --> 00:02:14,669 case, I see now that 66 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:16,549 I had not developed a 67 00:02:16,550 --> 00:02:19,369 moral or ethical code. 68 00:02:19,370 --> 00:02:20,569 That's Steve Urquhart. 69 00:02:20,570 --> 00:02:22,729 You heard him in the last episode. 70 00:02:22,730 --> 00:02:24,269 He's the co-founder of the Divine 71 00:02:24,270 --> 00:02:26,129 Assembly, one of the psychedelic 72 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:27,629 churches in Utah. 73 00:02:27,630 --> 00:02:29,509 But before that, he had a whole 74 00:02:29,510 --> 00:02:31,489 other life as a Republican 75 00:02:31,490 --> 00:02:33,329 state lawmaker and 76 00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:34,330 a devout Mormon. 77 00:02:35,410 --> 00:02:37,369 But after retiring from the Senate, 78 00:02:37,370 --> 00:02:38,889 he had powerful experience with 79 00:02:38,890 --> 00:02:40,909 ayahuasca and later left 80 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:43,139 the Church of Latter-day Saints. 81 00:02:43,140 --> 00:02:45,179 I'd been handed a list of 82 00:02:45,180 --> 00:02:46,999 things to do, things not to do 83 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,699 and that was my 84 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:50,700 moral compass. 85 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,719 So when that compass was 86 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,539 broken, I didn't know what 87 00:02:55,540 --> 00:02:57,099 to do. And I was lost. 88 00:02:57,100 --> 00:02:58,239 I was hurt. 89 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,679 And so I had this hole that I'm 90 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:00,499 trying to fill. 91 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:02,479 And so, you know, I filled the hole 92 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,799 with alcohol, with drugs, 93 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,199 I had just some torrid affairs, 94 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,099 and I was just a 95 00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:10,979 sloppy, sloppy human 96 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:12,299 being. 97 00:03:12,300 --> 00:03:14,579 Steve eventually got into therapy, 98 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:15,959 which he credits for saving his life 99 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,699 and his marriage. 100 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:19,219 But Steve also says that this 101 00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:21,659 intense period of experimentation is 102 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:23,319 common for people who leave the 103 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,259 Mormon church as they try all 104 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:26,759 the forbidden fruits for the first 105 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:27,849 time. 106 00:03:27,850 --> 00:03:30,389 Add to that sacraments 107 00:03:30,390 --> 00:03:32,809 that increase suggestibility 108 00:03:32,810 --> 00:03:34,309 and vulnerability. 109 00:03:34,310 --> 00:03:35,849 You know, I really think in 110 00:03:35,850 --> 00:03:37,789 psychedelic worship we 111 00:03:37,790 --> 00:03:39,649 should really expect 112 00:03:39,650 --> 00:03:42,109 a lot of predation 113 00:03:42,110 --> 00:03:44,229 unless we work against 114 00:03:44,230 --> 00:03:44,859 it. 115 00:03:44,860 --> 00:03:46,739 In 2023, that kind 116 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:48,719 of predation came to a head in 117 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:49,720 Salt Lake City. 118 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:53,649 According to Steve, what transpired 119 00:03:53,650 --> 00:03:55,149 didn't happen within a psychedelic 120 00:03:55,150 --> 00:03:57,009 church, but it became 121 00:03:57,010 --> 00:03:59,209 a kind of cautionary tale, 122 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:01,069 a boogeyman story, that 123 00:04:01,070 --> 00:04:02,429 has hung over the psychedelic 124 00:04:02,430 --> 00:04:04,289 movement, including the psychedelics 125 00:04:04,290 --> 00:04:06,169 church movement, in Utah ever 126 00:04:06,170 --> 00:04:07,170 since. 127 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,839 There was a man named 128 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,699 Parth Gandhi, and he was 129 00:04:11,700 --> 00:04:13,829 a therapist in Salt Lake City. 130 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:15,649 Like Steve, Parth was another 131 00:04:15,650 --> 00:04:16,969 early leader in the local 132 00:04:16,970 --> 00:04:18,328 psychedelic scene. 133 00:04:18,329 --> 00:04:21,069 He was charismatic, magnetic even. 134 00:04:21,070 --> 00:04:22,809 A lot of people admired him. 135 00:04:22,810 --> 00:04:24,869 He seemed impressive to me. 136 00:04:24,870 --> 00:04:26,669 He had a ketamine practice, he had 137 00:04:26,670 --> 00:04:28,609 some things going, and he wanted 138 00:04:28,610 --> 00:04:30,169 to reach our crowd. 139 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:32,189 And he reached out and said, let's 140 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:34,199 do something for bicycle day. 141 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,679 Bicycle Day celebrates the 142 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,759 anniversary of April 19th, 143 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,699 1943, the day Albert 144 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:41,659 Hoffman first intentionally consumed 145 00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:43,499 LSD, a drug he discovered 146 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:45,539 in his lab, and took one 147 00:04:45,540 --> 00:04:48,259 very interesting bicycle ride. 148 00:04:48,260 --> 00:04:49,859 But shortly before the event, Steve 149 00:04:49,860 --> 00:04:51,539 says he received texts from two 150 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:53,399 friends asking, Why 151 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,779 are you doing something with a 152 00:04:54,780 --> 00:04:56,199 rapist? 153 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,479 I'm like, oh, can we talk? 154 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,279 According to his friends, Parth had 155 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:01,599 sexually assaulted multiple 156 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,239 individuals. 157 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,359 Women, whom Steve's friends knew 158 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:06,360 personally. 159 00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:08,679 They were telling Steve second-hand 160 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,599 information, but it was enough for 161 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,319 Steve to cancel the event. 162 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,899 I just cut him off. 163 00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:15,999 You know, and I would tell people, 164 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,219 I'm hearing bad things about 165 00:05:18,220 --> 00:05:19,220 him. 166 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:21,939 Domestic abuse, sexual 167 00:05:21,940 --> 00:05:23,939 solicitation, and rape. 168 00:05:23,940 --> 00:05:25,499 These are some of the reports we 169 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:27,399 found filed over the years involving 170 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:28,719 Parth Gandhi. 171 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,979 In 2023, Parth murdered 172 00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:32,819 his 16-year-old son and 173 00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:34,679 then killed himself. 174 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,639 At the time, he had a thick file 175 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,699 with the police, mostly for 176 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:40,779 custody battle disputes. 177 00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:42,619 But he was also under investigation 178 00:05:42,620 --> 00:05:44,559 for sexual assault. 179 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,919 After the murder-suicide, ABC4 180 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,739 News spoke to a woman who says she 181 00:05:48,740 --> 00:05:50,679 was sexually assaulted by Parth 182 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,479 after going to him for a ketamine 183 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:53,480 treatment. 184 00:05:54,540 --> 00:05:56,839 Like what you don't trust me.". 185 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:58,299 She opened up to him about her 186 00:05:58,300 --> 00:05:59,559 trauma. 187 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,559 Ghandi gave her a lozenge and 188 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,619 a glass of orange juice. 189 00:06:03,620 --> 00:06:05,579 The next thing she remembers is 190 00:06:05,580 --> 00:06:06,940 leaving at 2 a.m. 191 00:06:08,169 --> 00:06:09,569 She had never filed a police report. 192 00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:11,789 But at least two other women had, 193 00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:12,790 alleging rape. 194 00:06:13,510 --> 00:06:15,409 You know, Salt Lake City, Utah, 195 00:06:15,410 --> 00:06:17,369 it is a pretty small 196 00:06:17,370 --> 00:06:19,229 village, and especially 197 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:20,909 in psychedelics. 198 00:06:20,910 --> 00:06:23,109 And there were a lot of ripples from 199 00:06:23,110 --> 00:06:25,269 that, and a lot us 200 00:06:25,270 --> 00:06:26,869 asking ourselves, 201 00:06:28,030 --> 00:06:29,929 should we have done more? 202 00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:31,809 But knowing what more to do can be 203 00:06:31,810 --> 00:06:32,810 tricky. 204 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,819 And it's a tough situation 205 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:37,699 because he 206 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:39,559 would threaten defamation 207 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,519 lawsuits and it 208 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,139 silenced a lot of people. 209 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:45,139 So that is a huge problem 210 00:06:45,140 --> 00:06:47,319 in this space. 211 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,179 You hear allegations about 212 00:06:49,180 --> 00:06:51,259 bad actors and then 213 00:06:51,260 --> 00:06:53,439 instantly there are 214 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,259 threats of defamation. 215 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:57,359 No one wants to be in an 216 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:58,739 expensive lawsuit. 217 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:00,719 So, it does tend to 218 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:01,720 shut people up. 219 00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:04,330 I saw that fear firsthand. 220 00:07:05,570 --> 00:07:07,049 For many months, I talked to women 221 00:07:07,050 --> 00:07:09,049 who had experienced unwanted sexual 222 00:07:09,050 --> 00:07:11,069 advances while on psychedelics 223 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:13,189 in Utah, but they were too afraid 224 00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:15,129 to make a police report or go 225 00:07:15,130 --> 00:07:17,089 public with their stories. 226 00:07:17,090 --> 00:07:18,629 And I get it. 227 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:20,189 It's not easy to admit to police 228 00:07:20,190 --> 00:07:22,789 that you use an illegal substance or 229 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:24,769 be a single mom and face the 230 00:07:24,770 --> 00:07:26,289 prospect of being sued into 231 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:27,349 oblivion. 232 00:07:27,350 --> 00:07:29,269 And so in the absence of legal 233 00:07:29,270 --> 00:07:30,289 accountability... 234 00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:32,129 It often falls on individuals to 235 00:07:32,130 --> 00:07:33,569 try to come up with ways to protect 236 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:34,649 themselves and each other. 237 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:37,979 I'm Aymee Condie. 238 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:39,879 I live in Utah County, 239 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,699 Utah, which is exactly 240 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:43,129 like it sounds. 241 00:07:43,130 --> 00:07:44,549 It's pretty Utah. 242 00:07:44,550 --> 00:07:46,429 Aymee is a licensed clinical social 243 00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:47,569 worker. 244 00:07:47,570 --> 00:07:48,629 When she's not wearing her 245 00:07:48,630 --> 00:07:50,249 professional hat, she runs a 246 00:07:50,250 --> 00:07:51,349 different chapter of the Divine 247 00:07:51,350 --> 00:07:53,369 Assembly in Utah, about 45 248 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:54,669 minutes from Salt Lake City. 249 00:07:55,670 --> 00:07:57,189 Aymee's chapter has developed its 250 00:07:57,190 --> 00:07:59,509 own culture around consent. 251 00:07:59,510 --> 00:08:02,009 They even have a group creed. 252 00:08:02,010 --> 00:08:03,809 Our leadership group took the 253 00:08:03,810 --> 00:08:05,629 concepts that are 254 00:08:05,630 --> 00:08:07,889 in the 12-step programs, 255 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:09,749 which keep a nonprofit being 256 00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:11,089 nonprofit. 257 00:08:11,090 --> 00:08:12,669 We took the concept from Burning 258 00:08:12,670 --> 00:08:14,709 Man, which is another group process 259 00:08:14,710 --> 00:08:16,609 that goes really well and focuses 260 00:08:16,610 --> 00:08:18,329 on decommodification. 261 00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:19,969 The motto for Aymee's chapter of the 262 00:08:19,970 --> 00:08:22,089 divine assembly is quote, 263 00:08:22,090 --> 00:08:23,808 "No Profits, No Prophets", 264 00:08:25,010 --> 00:08:26,949 as in no money, 265 00:08:26,950 --> 00:08:29,009 and also no Joseph Smith 266 00:08:29,010 --> 00:08:29,979 types. 267 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:31,839 We're referring to the FIT 268 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,918 kind of profits and the PHET 269 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:35,279 kind of profit. 270 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,418 And it's interesting to notice 271 00:08:37,419 --> 00:08:39,359 for myself, when I 272 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,279 say no profits, no profits I speak 273 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,699 the F-I-T profit first. 274 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:45,539 And for other people they speak the 275 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:47,519 P-H-E-T profit first when they 276 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,319 speak. 277 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,179 For myself, money becomes 278 00:08:50,180 --> 00:08:51,759 something that changes our 279 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,239 relationships. 280 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,099 It becomes an exchange of 281 00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:55,959 services. 282 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,899 For this reason, members of Aymee's 283 00:08:57,900 --> 00:08:59,959 chapter trip-sit for each other for 284 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:00,819 free. 285 00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:02,739 This requires a shared understanding 286 00:09:02,740 --> 00:09:04,639 of how everyone is expected to 287 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:05,640 behave. 288 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:07,809 Another community that has really 289 00:09:07,810 --> 00:09:09,629 informed a lot of our stuff is 290 00:09:09,630 --> 00:09:11,229 the kink community, which has a lot 291 00:09:11,230 --> 00:09:13,749 established ways to give consent, 292 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:14,869 that consent needs to be 293 00:09:14,870 --> 00:09:17,169 enthusiastic throughout, 294 00:09:17,170 --> 00:09:18,769 that consent is something that is 295 00:09:18,770 --> 00:09:20,869 agreed to before, during, 296 00:09:20,870 --> 00:09:23,389 and at any moment could be revoked. 297 00:09:23,390 --> 00:09:25,409 But also how to tell 298 00:09:25,410 --> 00:09:26,909 people no. 299 00:09:26,910 --> 00:09:28,789 No can be a hard word for a lot of 300 00:09:28,790 --> 00:09:31,009 people, but Aymee says that's 301 00:09:31,010 --> 00:09:33,109 especially true in Utah. 302 00:09:33,110 --> 00:09:34,689 I don't think I have to really elude 303 00:09:34,690 --> 00:09:36,489 that Utah is a Mormon culture. 304 00:09:36,490 --> 00:09:38,309 And I think in my culture 305 00:09:38,310 --> 00:09:40,529 here in Utah, a lot of 306 00:09:40,530 --> 00:09:42,249 women specifically are not 307 00:09:42,250 --> 00:09:44,729 encouraged to tell people no. 308 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:46,909 We're actually kind of encouraged 309 00:09:46,910 --> 00:09:48,909 to tolerate certain forms 310 00:09:48,910 --> 00:09:50,749 of things, because 311 00:09:50,750 --> 00:09:52,709 it will hurt people's feelings if 312 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:54,449 we say I'm not interested. 313 00:09:54,450 --> 00:09:55,829 I guess I'll just speak from my own 314 00:09:55,830 --> 00:09:57,249 experience, but I do believe it's 315 00:09:57,250 --> 00:09:58,939 shared by a lot people. 316 00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:00,959 The idea that men are so 317 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,279 overwhelmed with sexual desire 318 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,709 that they can't control themselves. 319 00:10:05,710 --> 00:10:07,209 Aymee says Mormon women are often 320 00:10:07,210 --> 00:10:08,509 placed in the role of managing 321 00:10:08,510 --> 00:10:10,049 Mormon men. 322 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:12,029 Until this year, women in the faith 323 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:13,630 were not allowed to wear tank tops. 324 00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:16,649 They cover their shoulders, 325 00:10:16,650 --> 00:10:18,489 because shoulders are, they're too 326 00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:19,969 tempting for men. 327 00:10:19,970 --> 00:10:21,729 Men can't look at shoulders. 328 00:10:21,730 --> 00:10:23,969 And so in that way, 329 00:10:23,970 --> 00:10:26,289 it's up to women to dress modestly 330 00:10:26,290 --> 00:10:28,269 so that they're not drawing a 331 00:10:28,270 --> 00:10:29,649 man's gaze. 332 00:10:29,650 --> 00:10:31,609 It's up women to make sure that they 333 00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:33,489 are keeping themselves chaste and 334 00:10:33,490 --> 00:10:35,489 pure because men lack 335 00:10:35,490 --> 00:10:36,849 that ability. 336 00:10:36,850 --> 00:10:38,789 So in that way women are put in 337 00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:40,669 the role of being the ones who 338 00:10:40,670 --> 00:10:41,819 say no. 339 00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:43,659 And who are in 340 00:10:43,660 --> 00:10:45,479 charge of making sure that sex 341 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:46,679 doesn't happen. 342 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:48,279 Women confide in Aymee. 343 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,639 They've told her multiple stories 344 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,719 about psychedelic facilitators, 345 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,139 some who also call themselves 346 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:55,119 therapists, initiating 347 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,279 sexual contact during psychedelic 348 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:58,799 journeys. 349 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,939 Aymee says this is wrong. 350 00:11:00,940 --> 00:11:02,819 Consent can't be given in the middle 351 00:11:02,820 --> 00:11:04,199 of a trip. 352 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:05,609 So if you go Into it. 353 00:11:05,610 --> 00:11:06,949 Let's say you're with your sexual 354 00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:08,749 partner who you have sex with all 355 00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:09,709 the time. 356 00:11:09,710 --> 00:11:11,209 That's a completely appropriate 357 00:11:11,210 --> 00:11:13,049 thing to say, hey, we're going to 358 00:11:13,050 --> 00:11:14,709 use some substances together and 359 00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:17,049 we'll probably have sexual contact. 360 00:11:17,050 --> 00:11:18,969 And making that your agreement from 361 00:11:18,970 --> 00:11:20,869 the start, that is a 362 00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:22,829 different experience than, 363 00:11:22,830 --> 00:11:23,909 hey let's heal. 364 00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:25,189 I have some techniques and 365 00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:26,949 strategies that can help you heal. 366 00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:28,549 Here's some medicine. 367 00:11:28,550 --> 00:11:29,969 And then when you're in medicine 368 00:11:29,970 --> 00:11:31,949 saying, AH I find you 369 00:11:31,950 --> 00:11:33,029 so attractive. 370 00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:34,089 I don't think I've ever been 371 00:11:34,090 --> 00:11:35,989 attractive to someone like that. 372 00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:37,189 That is a completely different 373 00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:39,309 experience and it's changing 374 00:11:39,310 --> 00:11:41,209 the expectations and the 375 00:11:41,210 --> 00:11:42,309 rules basically. 376 00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:46,229 But bad consent culture still 377 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:47,549 happens. 378 00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:49,049 And it's not hard to see why. 379 00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:51,769 On one hand, these substances can 380 00:11:51,770 --> 00:11:53,749 make people highly vulnerable, 381 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:55,609 almost childlike. 382 00:11:55,610 --> 00:11:56,949 On the other hand, some people 383 00:11:56,950 --> 00:11:59,389 experience a super inflated ego, 384 00:11:59,390 --> 00:12:01,449 a kind of megalomania. 385 00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:02,589 Put those two kinds of people 386 00:12:02,590 --> 00:12:04,449 together and things can get 387 00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:05,450 dangerous. 388 00:12:06,090 --> 00:12:07,090 I think some people take 389 00:12:08,339 --> 00:12:09,919 psychedelics, and instead of finding 390 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,459 God, they believe they're God. 391 00:12:12,460 --> 00:12:14,119 The Mormon culture I was raised in, 392 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,539 I was taught that you could be a 393 00:12:15,540 --> 00:12:17,759 God, that if you 394 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,619 kept all of the rules, that 395 00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:21,139 you would be given your own planet 396 00:12:21,140 --> 00:12:22,519 one day. 397 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,419 And so it's not a far stretch for me 398 00:12:24,420 --> 00:12:25,859 to think that some of those things 399 00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:27,399 still live inside of people who were 400 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,079 raised in that religion. 401 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:30,539 I don't really know how to weed 402 00:12:30,540 --> 00:12:32,499 people out and say you're one 403 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:34,139 of the people who found God and 404 00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:36,449 spirituality and now believe in it. 405 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:38,889 Like a collective unconscious, 406 00:12:38,890 --> 00:12:40,829 and those that believe, now I have 407 00:12:40,830 --> 00:12:42,209 the answers. 408 00:12:42,210 --> 00:12:43,649 But I do know that there's red flags 409 00:12:43,650 --> 00:12:45,449 that we can spot in people, and we 410 00:12:45,450 --> 00:12:46,869 can teach people about spotting 411 00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:48,919 those red flags in other people. 412 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,259 So what do you need to know to spot 413 00:12:50,260 --> 00:12:51,260 those red flags? 414 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:53,759 And how might that information be 415 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,599 applied to the growing psychedelic 416 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:56,879 church movement? 417 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:57,880 That's after the break. 418 00:13:09,210 --> 00:13:10,729 To find out how these mind-altering 419 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:12,609 substances might play into the abuse 420 00:13:12,610 --> 00:13:15,689 of power, I called Brian Anderson. 421 00:13:15,690 --> 00:13:17,269 He's a psychiatrist and a professor 422 00:13:17,270 --> 00:13:19,389 at UC San Francisco. 423 00:13:19,390 --> 00:13:21,389 And in his free time, he volunteers 424 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:23,329 with Sacred Plant Alliance, 425 00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:25,269 a non-profit organization of 13 426 00:13:25,270 --> 00:13:26,969 psychedelic churches all over the 427 00:13:26,970 --> 00:13:28,129 country. 428 00:13:28,130 --> 00:13:29,909 He's thought a lot about this stuff. 429 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,219 When there's a power dynamic where 430 00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:35,059 there's someone who's a leader, 431 00:13:35,060 --> 00:13:37,779 a guide, there's already the 432 00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:39,619 chance that there can be abuse of 433 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:41,539 that alone without any sort of 434 00:13:41,540 --> 00:13:43,039 mind-altering substance. 435 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,559 Brian is someone with one foot 436 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,379 rooted in science and the other in 437 00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:47,819 spirituality. 438 00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:49,679 I don't always see these realms 439 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,699 as totally separate in 440 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:53,719 part because my path even 441 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,679 into working in allopathic 442 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:57,499 or conventional medicine, a lot 443 00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:59,339 of that came out of experiences that 444 00:13:59,340 --> 00:14:01,159 I had as a young man. 445 00:14:02,460 --> 00:14:04,599 When Brian was in his early 20s, 446 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,779 he got to spend some time in Brazil, 447 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:08,239 where ayahuasca churches are a 448 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:09,299 normal part of society. 449 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,339 You have generations 450 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:15,159 of families who attend these 451 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,559 communities where the grandparents, 452 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,439 the parents, and even their 453 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,299 young adult children and sometimes 454 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,559 maybe even teenagers are part of 455 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:24,439 ceremonies. 456 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,839 There's just this deep sincerity 457 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,679 about how this is a religious 458 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:29,879 practice. 459 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,699 I learned a lot about what it means 460 00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:33,599 for people to intentionally 461 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,029 come together. 462 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:37,429 To use psychedelics for 463 00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:38,989 what they see as their spiritual 464 00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:41,009 practice as a way of connecting with 465 00:14:41,010 --> 00:14:42,969 a higher power and to 466 00:14:42,970 --> 00:14:45,009 do so in a totally non-medical 467 00:14:45,010 --> 00:14:47,149 way that is frankly very 468 00:14:47,150 --> 00:14:48,649 often, or at least if it's done 469 00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:50,469 well, it can be done very safely 470 00:14:50,470 --> 00:14:52,349 and it's not done under the 471 00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:54,029 auspice of science and it is not 472 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:56,329 done under the oversight of 473 00:14:56,330 --> 00:14:58,019 medical professionals. 474 00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:00,019 But even where it is more normative, 475 00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:01,739 it is not uncommon for psychedelic 476 00:15:01,740 --> 00:15:03,399 churches to replicate some of the 477 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,999 power structures seen in traditional 478 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,579 religions. 479 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:07,959 There can be a charismatic church 480 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,419 founder, a prophet type, 481 00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:12,779 or people seeking some sort of guru. 482 00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:13,979 And in many of the stories I've 483 00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:16,039 heard, the abuser is in a leadership 484 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,059 or guide position. 485 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:20,979 So I asked Brian, as a psychiatrist, 486 00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:22,759 how these mind-altering substances 487 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,580 might play into that abuse of power. 488 00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:28,479 From a psychological perspective, 489 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,519 the abuse of power is 490 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,579 something that seems 491 00:15:32,580 --> 00:15:34,539 strangely familiar as we 492 00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:36,439 can find it in many settings all 493 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:37,399 over the place. 494 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,859 As a psychiatrist and someone 495 00:15:38,860 --> 00:15:40,799 trained in psychotherapy, it's 496 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,399 something that we learn in our 497 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,279 training how when you do 498 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,219 very deep, close work with 499 00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:48,219 someone, there can be what feels 500 00:15:48,220 --> 00:15:50,079 like an exchange of 501 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,139 romantic energy. 502 00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:53,179 Because if you imagine 503 00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:55,169 what psychedelics can do if 504 00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:57,129 there's more of a merging of 505 00:15:57,130 --> 00:15:59,129 yourself with the self 506 00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:00,949 of the person next 507 00:16:00,950 --> 00:16:01,929 to you helping you. 508 00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:03,849 You feel this intense intimacy 509 00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:05,509 and connection. 510 00:16:05,510 --> 00:16:07,489 The substance awakens these 511 00:16:07,490 --> 00:16:09,669 very sometimes powerful feelings 512 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:11,929 of love, 513 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:12,789 of warmth. 514 00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:15,069 There can be a type of attraction 515 00:16:15,070 --> 00:16:17,209 or attachment, and unfortunately 516 00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:19,069 we've heard of real cases 517 00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:20,909 including in clinical research 518 00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:22,180 settings over past years, of 519 00:16:23,270 --> 00:16:25,329 where this very intimate, 520 00:16:25,330 --> 00:16:27,209 powerful relationship of 521 00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:29,129 a helper or a healer and 522 00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:31,569 someone seeking care can lead to 523 00:16:31,570 --> 00:16:33,889 boundary crossings when 524 00:16:33,890 --> 00:16:35,929 a psychedelic is involved. 525 00:16:35,930 --> 00:16:37,569 A lot of different organizations 526 00:16:37,570 --> 00:16:39,169 over the years have tried to put 527 00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:41,109 together safety tips and rules 528 00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:42,869 to avoid that kind of boundary 529 00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:43,870 crossing. 530 00:16:44,510 --> 00:16:45,569 A psychedelic group called the 531 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:47,529 Women's Visionary Council has 532 00:16:47,530 --> 00:16:49,229 20 safety tips posted on their 533 00:16:49,230 --> 00:16:50,829 website that one of their founders, 534 00:16:50,830 --> 00:16:52,749 Annie Oak, wrote more than a decade 535 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:53,849 ago. 536 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:55,769 I wanted to talk about number 18 on 537 00:16:55,770 --> 00:16:57,049 that list. 538 00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:58,050 I read it to Brian. 539 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,179 Consensual sexual encounters between 540 00:17:02,180 --> 00:17:03,979 ceremonial leaders and participants 541 00:17:03,980 --> 00:17:05,598 do occur. 542 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,439 These experiences may make the women 543 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,318 involved feel special, 544 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:11,219 but such relationships imply an 545 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:13,039 imbalance of power that has the 546 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,999 potential to be coercive and 547 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,739 potentially abusive. 548 00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:18,239 Consider that the professional 549 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,139 ethical standard for therapists 550 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:21,299 in the U.S. 551 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,239 is a complete ban on 552 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,039 intimate relationships with former 553 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,479 clients for two years, after 554 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,279 the conclusion of their therapeutic 555 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:30,979 work together. 556 00:17:30,980 --> 00:17:32,959 Reflect deeply on the wisdom 557 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,019 of this standard if you or 558 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:37,159 your healer are considering sexual 559 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,079 intimacy after a ceremony. 560 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,499 This is really interesting to me 561 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:43,419 because a lot of the stories I hear 562 00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:45,599 do tend to fall into this grayer 563 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:46,679 category. 564 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:47,959 It's also interesting that this 565 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,219 statement implies you can give 566 00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:51,139 consent but still be 567 00:17:51,140 --> 00:17:53,219 coerced or abused. 568 00:17:53,220 --> 00:17:54,599 Can you break that down a little 569 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:55,489 bit? 570 00:17:55,490 --> 00:17:57,449 One thing is to say, yes, I consent 571 00:17:57,450 --> 00:17:59,009 to this, but another thing is also 572 00:17:59,010 --> 00:18:00,849 to stop and step back 573 00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:02,709 and try to assess what are 574 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:04,669 all of the dynamics and 575 00:18:04,670 --> 00:18:06,549 things that are influencing that 576 00:18:06,550 --> 00:18:07,669 decision. 577 00:18:07,670 --> 00:18:09,409 If someone's a very charismatic 578 00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:11,569 leader, if there are 579 00:18:11,570 --> 00:18:13,429 psychedelics involved, or if 580 00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:15,149 people are entering altered states 581 00:18:15,150 --> 00:18:16,729 and going through other intense 582 00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:18,549 experiences together, 583 00:18:18,550 --> 00:18:20,409 there may be ways that someone would 584 00:18:20,410 --> 00:18:22,389 make a choice that in another state 585 00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:24,249 they may not. I think the 586 00:18:24,250 --> 00:18:25,839 most important thing is we're 587 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,819 talking about relationships and 588 00:18:27,820 --> 00:18:29,419 not just experiences. 589 00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:30,780 Are their relationships healthy? 590 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:33,459 And ideally, are there other people 591 00:18:33,460 --> 00:18:35,319 around in that community who can 592 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,559 give feedback on what 593 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,439 normal, healthy relationships are? 594 00:18:40,940 --> 00:18:42,819 I asked Brian, what are his 595 00:18:42,820 --> 00:18:44,019 red flags? 596 00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:45,480 What sets off his spidey senses? 597 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:48,279 There's probably a number of red 598 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:49,779 flags actually in the last few 599 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:51,799 years, as it seems that 600 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,599 more and more people are maybe 601 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,719 encountering psychedelics, 602 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,559 not just through a 603 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,379 dear friend or a family member 604 00:18:59,380 --> 00:19:00,899 or someone that they know who's 605 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:02,239 maybe part of a community, but 606 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:03,859 people are reaching out on their own 607 00:19:03,860 --> 00:19:05,679 and they're going out 608 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,179 and they are not going through sort 609 00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:09,179 of social filters or social 610 00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:10,699 connections where you can trust the 611 00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:12,599 person. Who introduced you 612 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,459 to a community because 613 00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:15,659 they were part of it. 614 00:19:15,660 --> 00:19:17,219 If people are going out and finding 615 00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:19,219 these on their own, 616 00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:20,839 and you want to look for a number of 617 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,799 things such as, who's 618 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:23,959 in this community in the first 619 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:25,959 place? Is it consistent? 620 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,719 Are there people who've come back? 621 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,499 Are there are people who bring their 622 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:31,339 family members and bring their 623 00:19:31,340 --> 00:19:33,049 other loved ones there? 624 00:19:33,050 --> 00:19:34,489 And for me, that would be a really 625 00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:36,549 helpful sign, knowing that 626 00:19:36,550 --> 00:19:38,369 people are invested in making 627 00:19:38,370 --> 00:19:39,949 the community better, and they're 628 00:19:39,950 --> 00:19:41,189 staying and they are bringing in 629 00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:42,809 people close to them because they 630 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:43,950 trust the work there. 631 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:47,389 There is certainly 632 00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:49,429 something about intense 633 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:51,869 experiences and how 634 00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:53,829 they may be offered to 635 00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:55,889 the world, that if done in 636 00:19:55,890 --> 00:19:57,709 a very showy 637 00:19:57,710 --> 00:20:00,029 way, a dramatic way, 638 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:01,009 will give me pause. 639 00:20:01,010 --> 00:20:03,379 When I think of mentors 640 00:20:03,380 --> 00:20:05,639 and people I've learned from, 641 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,879 they're often more quiet than 642 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:08,880 they are loud. 643 00:20:11,660 --> 00:20:13,579 I'm wondering whether Sacred 644 00:20:13,580 --> 00:20:15,639 Plant Alliance has ever had 645 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,939 sexual misconduct come up 646 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:19,819 within the context of any of 647 00:20:19,820 --> 00:20:21,559 your 13-member churches. 648 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,759 Within the Sacred Planet Alliance, 649 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,879 yes, we've received some notices of 650 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,479 concern over the years. 651 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,399 They've involved both dynamics 652 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,419 between clergy within a 653 00:20:31,420 --> 00:20:33,279 community as well as a 654 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,299 congregant or a practitioner within 655 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:37,399 that group having a 656 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,029 complaint about a leader. 657 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:40,409 Can you share a little bit more 658 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:42,369 about how Sacred Plan Alliance 659 00:20:42,370 --> 00:20:44,429 handles that internally? 660 00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:46,349 So we've been around for 661 00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:47,629 five years. 662 00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:49,589 We only allow groups to come in 663 00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:51,189 that are already formed, have been 664 00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:52,989 operating for several years in this 665 00:20:52,990 --> 00:20:55,029 country, and have the policies and 666 00:20:55,030 --> 00:20:56,929 procedures in place, we think, to 667 00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:58,849 do a good job of 668 00:20:58,850 --> 00:21:00,429 taking care of the people who are in 669 00:21:00,430 --> 00:21:01,430 their community. 670 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,319 To be a member church with Sacred 671 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,159 Plant Alliance, the church has 672 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,619 to essentially agree to make a 673 00:21:07,620 --> 00:21:08,799 hotline. 674 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,599 That way, if a congregant feels like 675 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,399 something has gone wrong, they can 676 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,679 reach out to Brian's colleagues 677 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:14,680 directly. 678 00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:16,919 The complaint then goes before an 679 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,299 ethics committee made up of 680 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:19,539 representatives from the other 681 00:21:19,540 --> 00:21:20,540 member churches. 682 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,099 They weigh the complaint against 683 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:24,679 Sacred Plant alliance's code of 684 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,599 conduct and vote on whether 685 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,719 a violation has likely occurred. 686 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,799 Do you have a standard 687 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:31,739 for... 688 00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:32,859 Likely or not? 689 00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:34,799 Is it 50% or how do 690 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,539 you judge that? 691 00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:38,399 We just use the standard of 692 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,499 51% confidence 693 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:42,519 that the violation of the Code of 694 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,639 Conduct happened. 695 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:44,919 It's not perfect. 696 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,659 We're not going to be able to get it 697 00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:48,659 right all the time, but 698 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:50,479 we do have a process of looking into 699 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,299 things and trying to give some 700 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:54,319 sense of resolution and 701 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,979 support and importantly, 702 00:21:56,980 --> 00:21:58,859 a path forward for people to 703 00:21:58,860 --> 00:21:59,589 do better. 704 00:21:59,590 --> 00:22:01,249 That path forward can look like 705 00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:02,849 assigning a mentor to a member 706 00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:04,429 church for a lower level offense 707 00:22:04,430 --> 00:22:06,729 like financial mismanagement. 708 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:08,189 At the higher end, for an offense 709 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:10,489 such as physical or sexual abuse, 710 00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:12,229 the church can be kicked out of 711 00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:14,149 Sacred Plant Alliance. 712 00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:15,509 It's an interesting model where the 713 00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:17,049 actions of one individual can get 714 00:22:17,050 --> 00:22:18,929 the whole group removed, but 715 00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:21,029 at least it's a process. 716 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:23,089 By contrast, in Utah, 717 00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:24,309 it's little bit more of a 718 00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:26,229 free-for-all, with an emphasis on 719 00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:27,249 personal responsibility. 720 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:30,159 I asked Brian what he thinks about 721 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,259 that. 722 00:22:31,260 --> 00:22:33,279 In our country, religious 723 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,499 freedom allows people 724 00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,359 to worship and come 725 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:40,159 together in so many different ways. 726 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,819 For me personally, it's a very 727 00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:42,879 beautiful thing. 728 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,199 There's not going to be one right 729 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,139 answer for how people should 730 00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:49,399 and can worship when they 731 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,719 choose to enter intense states 732 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,219 of consciousness, including those 733 00:22:53,220 --> 00:22:54,939 that can be occasioned by 734 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:56,709 psychedelic substances. 735 00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:58,489 Brian says a psychedelic church 736 00:22:58,490 --> 00:23:00,109 shouldn't just be about 737 00:23:00,110 --> 00:23:01,569 psychedelics. 738 00:23:01,570 --> 00:23:03,230 It should also be about community. 739 00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:06,699 The question I have is, if 740 00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:08,719 there are gonna be communities 741 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,299 of people that come together, do 742 00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:12,139 work together, and pray 743 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:14,039 together, what is the 744 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,919 sustainable way of doing that? 745 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,239 What is the way that is gonna keep 746 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,219 the most people most safe for the 747 00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:21,459 longest amount of time? 748 00:23:21,460 --> 00:23:23,479 For me, the models that I have 749 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,339 seen to be most sustainable do 750 00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:27,279 involve people coming together, and 751 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,259 again, not just focusing on an 752 00:23:29,260 --> 00:23:31,119 experience, but on 753 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,599 being part of something with others. 754 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,339 He also made a good point. 755 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:36,759 When psychedelics were more of an 756 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,439 underground thing, it's not like 757 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,079 there were a million policies or 758 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,140 review boards, for better or worse. 759 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,159 People have been governing 760 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,979 themselves in this space for 761 00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:47,119 a very long time. 762 00:23:55,940 --> 00:23:58,199 This conversation about consent 763 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,259 and safeguards around psychedelics, 764 00:24:00,260 --> 00:24:02,239 it reminded me of this song 765 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,689 that I learned as a kid in Montreal. 766 00:24:04,690 --> 00:24:06,969 Mon corps, c'est mon corps, 767 00:24:06,970 --> 00:24:09,449 ce n'est pas le tien 768 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:11,429 Tu as mon corps à 769 00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:13,549 toi, laisse-moi 770 00:24:13,550 --> 00:24:14,550 le mien 771 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:17,939 The words go, my body 772 00:24:17,940 --> 00:24:20,119 is my body, it's not yours. 773 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:21,859 You have your body, so leave me 774 00:24:21,860 --> 00:24:22,939 mine. 775 00:24:22,940 --> 00:24:24,699 Ask any French-speaking kid who grew 776 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:26,539 up in Montreal in the 90s, and 777 00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:28,059 they will tell you that Mon Corps 778 00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:30,019 C'est Mon Corps was one of the main 779 00:24:30,020 --> 00:24:31,799 songs of our childhood. 780 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:32,920 We learned it in school. 781 00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:37,529 Protecting bodily autonomy, 782 00:24:37,530 --> 00:24:39,369 navigating risk, these are all 783 00:24:39,370 --> 00:24:41,549 things that we aren't super great at 784 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:43,409 as a society. 785 00:24:43,410 --> 00:24:45,489 But these things are crucial to 786 00:24:45,490 --> 00:24:47,689 understand, especially in 787 00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:48,750 the psychedelic space. 788 00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:51,369 This season, we've explored two 789 00:24:51,370 --> 00:24:52,749 worlds that exist within the 790 00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:54,809 universe of psychedelics, science 791 00:24:54,810 --> 00:24:56,469 and religion. 792 00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:58,309 Both offer a path toward 793 00:24:58,310 --> 00:24:59,809 legal psychedelics. 794 00:24:59,810 --> 00:25:01,489 One where these substances are 795 00:25:01,490 --> 00:25:03,329 sacraments and another where 796 00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:05,689 they are prescribed medicines. 797 00:25:05,690 --> 00:25:07,429 And each path has its own set of 798 00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:09,049 legal and ethical challenges. 799 00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:11,829 But you know what struck me the most 800 00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:13,469 while making this season? 801 00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:14,849 Whether in the context of clinical 802 00:25:14,850 --> 00:25:16,829 trials, Native American peyote 803 00:25:16,830 --> 00:25:18,889 ceremonies, or former Mormon 804 00:25:18,890 --> 00:25:20,749 neo-religions, I kept 805 00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:22,829 hearing again and again about 806 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:24,709 the healing qualities of 807 00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:27,169 human connection and caregiving. 808 00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:28,969 It's why the UCSF pediatrician 809 00:25:28,970 --> 00:25:30,489 wanted her anorexia study 810 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:31,869 participants to have loved ones 811 00:25:31,870 --> 00:25:33,339 present with them. 812 00:25:33,340 --> 00:25:35,259 Clinical trials are limited and 813 00:25:35,260 --> 00:25:36,879 we can only support someone for so 814 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,279 long, but they are going to have 815 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,359 this set of experiences related 816 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:41,639 to psilocybin dosing. 817 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,279 And we want something in their life 818 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,179 to be set up to continue to 819 00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:46,180 support them. 820 00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:48,269 It's why Sughra Ahmed wanted to have 821 00:25:48,270 --> 00:25:50,149 her own psychedelic organization for 822 00:25:50,150 --> 00:25:51,329 fellow Muslims. 823 00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:53,229 Not all roads have to lead to taking 824 00:25:53,230 --> 00:25:55,049 plant medicine, but our community 825 00:25:55,050 --> 00:25:56,789 deserves healing. 826 00:25:56,790 --> 00:25:58,649 It deserves specialism 827 00:25:58,650 --> 00:26:00,009 in this field. 828 00:26:00,010 --> 00:26:01,609 It's why Aymee, the therapist in 829 00:26:01,610 --> 00:26:03,229 Utah, is trying to create these 830 00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:04,689 shared guidelines around physical 831 00:26:04,690 --> 00:26:06,849 boundaries and safety, and 832 00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:08,889 why the Psychedelic Hotline Fireside 833 00:26:08,890 --> 00:26:10,749 Project has received more than 834 00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:12,170 26,000 calls. 835 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:16,339 We are social animals, and there is 836 00:26:16,340 --> 00:26:18,199 power in a reassuring and 837 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,839 welcoming voice. 838 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,399 Because we just do better together, 839 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,659 tripping or not. 840 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:37,169 Altered States is a production of 841 00:26:37,170 --> 00:26:38,589 the UC Berkeley Center for the 842 00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:41,269 Science of Psychedelics and PRX. 843 00:26:41,270 --> 00:26:42,469 This episode was reported and 844 00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:44,549 produced by Cassady Rosenblum. 845 00:26:44,550 --> 00:26:46,529 Adiza Egan is our senior editor. 846 00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:48,189 Our executive editor is Malia 847 00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:49,149 Wollan. 848 00:26:49,150 --> 00:26:50,309 Jennie Cataldo is our Senior 849 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:52,269 Producer and our researcher is 850 00:26:52,270 --> 00:26:54,349 Cassady Rosenblum Our associate 851 00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:56,549 producer is Jade Abdul Malik and 852 00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:58,089 our audio engineers are Terence 853 00:26:58,090 --> 00:27:00,149 Bernardo and Jennie Cataldo. 854 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:01,150 Fact-checking by Graham Hacia. 855 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:04,049 Special thanks to Bob Jesse. 856 00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:05,709 Our executive producers are Malia 857 00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:08,289 Wollan and Jocelyn Gonzales. 858 00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:09,769 And our project manager is Edwin 859 00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:10,849 Ochoa. 860 00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:12,569 Our theme music is by Thao Nguyen 861 00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:13,989 and Nate Brenner. 862 00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:15,281 And I'm your host, Arielle 863 00:27:15,282 --> 00:27:16,282 Duhaime-Ross. 864 00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:18,469 Be sure to subscribe, rate, and 865 00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:20,089 review Altered States wherever you 866 00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:21,929 get your podcasts. 867 00:27:21,930 --> 00:27:23,329 Most well-known psychedelics remain 868 00:27:23,330 --> 00:27:25,049 illegal around the world, including 869 00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:27,009 in the United States, where it is 870 00:27:27,010 --> 00:27:28,809 a criminal offense to manufacture, 871 00:27:28,810 --> 00:27:30,749 possess, dispense, or supply most 872 00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:32,749 psychedelics with few exceptions. 873 00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:34,549 Altered states does not recommend or 874 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:36,609 encourage the use of psychedelics or 875 00:27:36,610 --> 00:27:38,350 offer instructions in their use.