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On an afternoon in Baltimore,

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Sughra Ahmed prepared for her very

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first psychedelic experience at

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Johns Hopkins University.

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Sughra is a teacher and leader

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within the Muslim faith.

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She signed up to be part of a study

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that measured what happened when

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religious leaders took psilocybin.

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We told you about it in our last

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episode.

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And after entering the treatment

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room, she took some time to pray.

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My prayer before

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I ingested the

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medicine was about

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healing,

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physical healing, spiritual

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healing.

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In Arabic, the word is shifa,

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complete healing.

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Then she swallowed a pill that

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contained psilocybin, she put on a

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pair of eye shades, donned

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the provided headphones, and laid

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down on the couch.

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From that point on, the main sensory

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input she received was the

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music playing through her

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headphones.

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From memory, it had

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a lot of Euro-Christian,

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a lot of, maybe Bach, and maybe

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Mozart.

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The music had been selected

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by the researchers,

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and most of the songs in the

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hours-long playlist were.

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Classical music.

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It felt like a

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brilliant choir singing in

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this huge cathedral.

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Bringing the players to life through

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these words that were holy and

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precious, I couldn't understand

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the words because of the way that

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they were sung.

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So Sughra is hearing orchestral

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music, and at this other point

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she's hearing a choir singing the

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words of an Eastern Orthodox

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Christian worship song.

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And according to Sughra, it's all...

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Really sort of high church,

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this is very posh.

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That kind of music is not

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unfamiliar, it reminds me of the

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schools that I went to as a young

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girl.

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But even though the music is

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familiar to her, listening to

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these pieces, in this moment,

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doesn't feel right.

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My ear is not tuned to

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that kind of music.

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A lot of this music was very

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melodic, and I think the sort of

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aspiration there would be that you

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have an experience with the divine,

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possibly. But I know I wasn't in
there.

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In other words, Sughra

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felt her traditions weren't

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reflected in the music.

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A number of other religions were,

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but not hers, even though

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she had asked the researchers if

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they could modify the playlist for

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her sessions.

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You know, I have Qawallis and I have

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other kinds of music that would be

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amazing if I could add to it and

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say, no, the same music has to

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be played to every person.

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Obviously, it's a clinical trial.

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As the drugs started to kick in,

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Sughra wanted to be hearing this.

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Tu Jhoom, a track performed by

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Naseebo Lal and Abida Parveen.

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But instead, she was

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hearing this.

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I don't regret my experience.

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I have such reverence for my

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experiences.

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They are my truth.

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And I am so curious

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about the fact that if

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I had been present in these

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ways that we're talking about,

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whether it's a playlist or whether

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it is a guide or whether it

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something else, what more

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would I have been able to move

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through? What trauma would I've been

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able let go of?

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What joys would I been able

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experience because I

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felt seen and I felt heard.

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The

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playlist that Sughra listened to

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during her sessions is pretty

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famous in psychedelic circles.

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It's known as the Johns Hopkins

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playlist, and it was one of

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the very first music compilations

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curated specifically for psychedelic

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study participants.

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Versions of it have been used in

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clinical trials at Johns Hopkins

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University for more than 25

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years.

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The playlist is on Spotify,

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YouTube, Tidal, basically every

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music streaming platform, which

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has allowed it to reach people far

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outside the lab, shaping

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the music that is played during

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private psychedelic therapy

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sessions, as well as what's played

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when people use these substances

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recreationally, which for me

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brings up a few questions.

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Questions that Sughra had too.

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Maybe this is the beginning of a

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really important conversation about

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music and playlists.

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And how do we even decide what

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goes in these things?

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Right. Like what are we even trying
to achieve.

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And that's exactly what we're going

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to explore in this episode of

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Altered States.

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I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross.

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Stay with us.

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I do have the dubious distinction

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of being the last to

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give psilocybin to a patient

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before everything became dormant

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for 22 years.

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Talk about death and rebirth.

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This is Bill Richards.

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Officially William A. Richards.

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When I decided to dig into the

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history of the Johns Hopkins

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playlist, he was my first

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stop.

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Bill is a clinical psychologist.

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He has a master's in divinity from

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Yale, and he's one of the pioneers

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of psychedelic assisted therapy

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going back to the 1960s.

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I just turned 85

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and I'm

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completely incapable of retiring.

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Actually, Bill was one of the

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scientists who worked on the study

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in which Sughra Ahmed was a

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participant, the religious leaders

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study.

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I straddled both fields,

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the research, psychopharmacological,

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psychotherapy research world,

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and the implications

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of that for religious

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scholarship.

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From what I understand, you are the

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person who put together the

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very first Hopkins playlist.

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Is that correct?

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Yes. Yes.

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This is how Bill described the

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playlist to me.

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Okay. The Hopkins playlist

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is designed for

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a moderately high or high

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dose psychedelic session,

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one where the dosage is sufficient

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to give

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access to

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these transcendental realms

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of human consciousness.

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And it's designed with

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the different phases of

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the response to the

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psychedelic substance in

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mind.

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So in a well-designed playlist,

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say with psilocybin,

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which has usually a six hour

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duration of action,

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there's music to

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be playing softly in the background

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when the person enters the room.

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Comfortable background music that

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doesn't demand a lot of attention,

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but it's kind of soothing.

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Then there's music for that

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opening up, that

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onset, that launch

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period.

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Where some people might tend to get

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very frightened.

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So it's music that's steady,

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no surprising changes in

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rhythm, no words for

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the intellect to try to decipher.

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It's just unfolding,

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supportive sound.

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I like to use the Kyrie

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of the Bach B Minor Mass,

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for example, opening

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up, opening up opening

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up transporting you.

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As a participant approaches the

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peak of their psilocybin experience,

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they hear.

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Samuel Barber's Adagio for

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Strings, kind of chromatic

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development, dissonance

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into harmony, more dissonant

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into harmony.

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Picking you up and transporting

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you.

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Just builds and builds and build

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and builds, and reaches a

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climax in a

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very meaningful way that

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speaks to the minds of

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most humans.

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About an hour in, hour and

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a half, you're at the peak.

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In the early days, we always used

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at least one movement of a Brahms

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symphony.

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Often the first movement, it

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has this very steady progressive,

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you know, on with it, on with it

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into it, in and through, in,

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and through.

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Then in the.

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Transcendental, if you will,

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period of the drug session,

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if that occurs, works like

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Sir Edward Algar's Nimrod,

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the ninth variation.

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The slow movement

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of the Mozart

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Clarinet Concerto,

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the slow movement of

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the Beethoven

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Fifth Emperor Piano

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concerto or the Brahms

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Second Piano Concerto.

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They just reliably work

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well with many different people.

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But then as a study participant

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comes down from the peak,

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Bill says there's a little more

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wiggle room.

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If it's been a positive session,

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you can appreciate almost anything.

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And it's even fun to listen

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to music that's from

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different countries,

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different genres.

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And it just kind of a celebration

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of welcome back to earth.

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This is when participants are

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welcomed by songs like Here Comes

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the Sun by the Beatles, Storms

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in Africa by Enya, King

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of Kings by Ladysmith Black Mambazo,

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and What a Wonderful World by Louis

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Armstrong.

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There's an openness to,

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gee, play anything I'll try

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it on.

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So that's the Hopkins playlist, at

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least in terms of its content.

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And on the face of it, it makes

290
00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:44,519
sense that a playlist of this nature

291
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,659
might exist because, of

292
00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:47,979
course, study participants are

293
00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:49,219
listening to music during their

294
00:10:49,220 --> 00:10:51,179
sessions, right?

295
00:10:51,180 --> 00:10:53,059
Well, when Bill first entered the

296
00:10:53,060 --> 00:10:54,979
world of psychedelic science,

297
00:10:54,980 --> 00:10:56,779
there was no guarantee that you'd

298
00:10:56,780 --> 00:10:58,719
listen to music at all during a

299
00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,779
session.

300
00:10:59,780 --> 00:11:01,219
In fact, Bill's first experience

301
00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:02,219
with psilocybin

302
00:11:02,220 --> 00:11:04,099
I was 23 years old

303
00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:06,760
in 1963.

304
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,279
I went to the University

305
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,319
of Göttingen in

306
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,179
the western

307
00:11:14,180 --> 00:11:15,999
part of Germany at

308
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,159
that time, and

309
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:19,979
at that point I had

310
00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:23,339
not even heard the word psychedelic.

311
00:11:23,340 --> 00:11:25,219
I had no idea what

312
00:11:25,220 --> 00:11:26,979
psilocybin might be.

313
00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:29,019
But two friends of

314
00:11:29,020 --> 00:11:30,969
mine who I had just

315
00:11:30,970 --> 00:11:33,429
met had participated in

316
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:35,509
an interesting research project

317
00:11:35,510 --> 00:11:37,469
in the nerve clinic or

318
00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:39,389
psychiatric clinic of the

319
00:11:39,390 --> 00:11:41,229
university, which was just around

320
00:11:41,230 --> 00:11:43,369
the corner from our

321
00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:45,069
dormitory.

322
00:11:45,070 --> 00:11:47,049
So anyway, I went over to the clinic

323
00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:49,109
and asked if I could be

324
00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:51,609
a research subject as well.

325
00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:53,469
What was the setup like for

326
00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:54,789
that experience?

327
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:56,290
It was terrible.

328
00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:01,239
It was a little basement

329
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,139
room with

330
00:12:03,140 --> 00:12:05,239
a cot and end table and

331
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,159
a chair with a window looking

332
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,039
out over the hospital garbage

333
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,879
cans, and I was

334
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,979
left totally alone with

335
00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:14,959
a research assistant checking

336
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,279
in on me every now and then.

337
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,139
The only music was the

338
00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:21,019
garbage man emptying the metal

339
00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,739
cans outside my window,

340
00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:25,859
which I call tinkling temple

341
00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:26,749
bells.

342
00:12:26,750 --> 00:12:28,690
I'm sure that sounded lovely.

343
00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:33,869
Somehow, Bill still managed to

344
00:12:33,870 --> 00:12:35,369
have a good experience.

345
00:12:35,370 --> 00:12:37,529
They injected me with

346
00:12:37,530 --> 00:12:39,589
CZ74, which was

347
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:41,829
a short-acting derivative

348
00:12:41,830 --> 00:12:43,809
of psilocybin.

349
00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:46,629
To my total amazement,

350
00:12:46,630 --> 00:12:49,129
this very profound transcendental

351
00:12:49,130 --> 00:12:51,629
state of consciousness opened up

352
00:12:51,630 --> 00:12:54,149
in this 23-year-old

353
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:56,279
kid I once was.

354
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,119
Even without music,

355
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,019
Bill says he had a transformative

356
00:13:00,020 --> 00:13:02,099
experience, but eventually

357
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:03,679
the sessions he took part in became

358
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,599
less garbage dungeon and

359
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,699
more soothing therapy,

360
00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:09,179
thanks to another scientist that

361
00:13:09,180 --> 00:13:12,179
Bill met in the winter of 1964,

362
00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:14,589
a psychiatrist named Walter Pahnke.

363
00:13:14,590 --> 00:13:16,409
He suggested that we do

364
00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:18,369
another experiment and raise the

365
00:13:18,370 --> 00:13:20,609
dosage a little bit and

366
00:13:20,610 --> 00:13:22,509
bring me out of the basement into

367
00:13:22,510 --> 00:13:25,009
a room with some plants,

368
00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:26,869
and he'd be there to hold my hand

369
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:29,229
if I needed it, and

370
00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:31,429
we used music for

371
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:32,430
the first time.

372
00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:35,779
To be clear, Pahnke didn't come

373
00:13:35,780 --> 00:13:37,299
up with the idea of playing music

374
00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:39,239
during psilocybin sessions in

375
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:40,579
a research setting.

376
00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:41,999
This is just how Bill gets

377
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,779
introduced to the combination of

378
00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:45,219
music and psychedelics.

379
00:13:45,220 --> 00:13:47,379
With Walter Pahnke, we use

380
00:13:47,380 --> 00:13:50,059
the Brahms Requiem,

381
00:13:50,060 --> 00:13:51,419
which I love.

382
00:13:52,460 --> 00:13:55,519
The way it richly

383
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,979
unfolds moving forward,

384
00:13:57,980 --> 00:13:59,979
especially the first two

385
00:13:59,980 --> 00:14:00,980
choruses.

386
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:06,479
"Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen",
"How

387
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,119
lovely is thy dwelling place."

388
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,019
It's really a requiem

389
00:14:11,020 --> 00:14:13,359
for the living, and it's

390
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,979
not the words really.

391
00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:17,879
It's the music itself that

392
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,779
just unfolds in

393
00:14:19,780 --> 00:14:21,979
a very rich

394
00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:24,000
and supportive manner.

395
00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:27,609
It's probably clear by now, but Bill

396
00:14:27,610 --> 00:14:30,049
is a classically trained musician.

397
00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:32,069
He plays piano and the

398
00:14:32,070 --> 00:14:33,070
organ.

399
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,059
How was your experience made

400
00:14:37,060 --> 00:14:39,199
different because there was

401
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,659
obviously a very different set and

402
00:14:40,660 --> 00:14:41,839
setting, but also because there was

403
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:42,709
music?

404
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:44,909
I don't think the music causes

405
00:14:44,910 --> 00:14:45,950
content,

406
00:14:46,970 --> 00:14:48,789
but the music

407
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:51,049
provides nonverbal

408
00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:53,849
support that

409
00:14:53,850 --> 00:14:55,789
enables many people, I

410
00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:58,109
think, to go more deeply

411
00:14:58,110 --> 00:15:01,049
within consciousness than

412
00:15:01,050 --> 00:15:03,089
they otherwise would.

413
00:15:03,090 --> 00:15:05,309
Sort of like a strong flowing

414
00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:07,089
river if you're a piece of

415
00:15:07,090 --> 00:15:08,349
driftwood.

416
00:15:08,350 --> 00:15:10,409
If you just relax into the

417
00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:11,410
music.

418
00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:14,389
It takes you places.

419
00:15:14,390 --> 00:15:16,509
It enables you to go much

420
00:15:16,510 --> 00:15:18,349
more deeply than you

421
00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:20,549
otherwise might if the music is

422
00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:21,669
well chosen.

423
00:15:23,530 --> 00:15:25,569
That insight about music helping

424
00:15:25,570 --> 00:15:28,349
people go deeper with psychedelics.

425
00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:29,509
That's the nugget of information

426
00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:31,309
that eventually leads him to make

427
00:15:31,310 --> 00:15:33,169
the Johns Hopkins playlist decades

428
00:15:33,170 --> 00:15:34,170
later.

429
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:36,609
But Sughra might never have listened

430
00:15:36,610 --> 00:15:38,449
to this specific playlist had

431
00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:40,609
it not been for another person's

432
00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:41,709
contributions.

433
00:15:41,710 --> 00:15:43,509
A colleague of Bill's who worked

434
00:15:43,510 --> 00:15:45,069
with him at the Maryland Psychiatric

435
00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:46,749
Research Center in the late sixties

436
00:15:46,750 --> 00:15:48,949
and early seventies, a woman

437
00:15:48,950 --> 00:15:49,950
named Helen Bonny.

438
00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:53,419
She was our music therapist

439
00:15:53,420 --> 00:15:55,599
at the Maryland Psychiatric Research

440
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:56,759
Center.

441
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,659
She was a very fine

442
00:15:58,660 --> 00:16:00,619
music therapist and

443
00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:03,179
she developed the first playlists.

444
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,259
Bill told me that Helen was the

445
00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:09,299
first person that he knew of who'd

446
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:10,939
made a playlist specifically for a

447
00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:12,419
psychedelic session.

448
00:16:12,420 --> 00:16:13,879
Unfortunately, I couldn't speak with

449
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,719
her about that because she died in

450
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:16,720
2010.

451
00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:20,849
Today, making a playlist might

452
00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:22,969
sound like a small thing,

453
00:16:22,970 --> 00:16:24,369
but you got to think of the context,

454
00:16:24,370 --> 00:16:26,189
right? I mean, we're talking late

455
00:16:26,190 --> 00:16:27,309
sixties.

456
00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:29,289
So playing music means playing

457
00:16:29,290 --> 00:16:30,339
records.

458
00:16:30,340 --> 00:16:32,699
We didn't know what a playlist was,

459
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:34,919
you know, we had 33

460
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,619
RPM records and

461
00:16:38,620 --> 00:16:40,439
that's one reason we needed two

462
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,479
therapists in the room that if

463
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,339
one was holding the patient's

464
00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:46,179
hand, someone else had to change the

465
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:46,699
record.

466
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:47,850
Oh, wow.

467
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,039
I've always wondered about the two

468
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,019
therapists thing and how that was

469
00:16:53,020 --> 00:16:54,449
quite common back then.

470
00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:56,529
Well, some would say you need

471
00:16:56,530 --> 00:16:58,169
two because these drugs are so

472
00:16:58,170 --> 00:17:00,409
dangerous and you might have to

473
00:17:00,410 --> 00:17:02,409
control the person if they get

474
00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:04,709
psychotic and more

475
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:06,108
psychoanalytically trained people

476
00:17:06,109 --> 00:17:07,989
would say, you need a mother

477
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:10,108
to project on and a father to

478
00:17:10,109 --> 00:17:11,969
project on, but I think

479
00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:13,868
the real reason was we needed help

480
00:17:13,869 --> 00:17:14,930
to change records.

481
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:20,699
Though we took it very seriously

482
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,939
and we were very self-important,

483
00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:26,039
we were really playing disk

484
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,019
jockey as well as therapist

485
00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:29,689
all the time.

486
00:17:29,690 --> 00:17:31,749
And so Helen, she changed that.

487
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:33,389
She got these psychedelic therapists

488
00:17:33,390 --> 00:17:34,390
to use.

489
00:17:36,369 --> 00:17:38,269
Cassette tapes, they

490
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:39,719
were labeled things like Peak

491
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:39,730
Experience and Affect Release and
Comforting anaclitic and so on. Death

492
00:17:39,731 --> 00:17:40,731
Rebirth.

493
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:51,169
And she put these tapes

494
00:17:51,170 --> 00:17:53,309
together as

495
00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:55,229
her dissertation for

496
00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:56,119
her doctorate.

497
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,079
Did Helen come up with this idea of

498
00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,689
making these tapes?

499
00:17:59,690 --> 00:18:00,869
I think so.

500
00:18:00,870 --> 00:18:03,199
Yeah, the cassettes.

501
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:04,899
That's not the only contribution

502
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:06,739
Helen made during this period.

503
00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:08,319
She also contributed the structure

504
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,139
of the psychedelic experience that

505
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:11,959
became popularized and

506
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,039
enshrined in the Hopkins playlist

507
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,259
itself.

508
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:17,399
That whole thing about the build to

509
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,439
the peak and then the come down

510
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,139
and then timing of it.

511
00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:23,299
That's her and Walter Pahnke.

512
00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:24,479
She talked about this at a

513
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:25,999
conference in North Carolina in

514
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,079
1995, 15 years

515
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,080
before she died.

516
00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:32,869
My first task was

517
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:34,849
to try to find out what music was

518
00:18:34,850 --> 00:18:36,549
best for what part of the drug

519
00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:37,829
reactivity.

520
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:39,989
When she arrived, she could

521
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:42,429
see what we had been using.

522
00:18:42,430 --> 00:18:44,289
We used a lot of music

523
00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:46,249
in our psychedelic

524
00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:48,069
research there.

525
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:49,889
And I did a little research with

526
00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:51,989
the therapist and

527
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:53,929
through this process of finding what

528
00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:55,969
they thought was best at what time

529
00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:58,149
came together with a

530
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:59,869
body of music.

531
00:18:59,870 --> 00:19:02,289
And then she made suggestions

532
00:19:02,290 --> 00:19:04,249
and introduced us to some new

533
00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:06,369
things and developed

534
00:19:06,370 --> 00:19:07,279
the tapes.

535
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,059
We almost immediately found out that

536
00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:10,599
the classical music was better than

537
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,179
any other kind.

538
00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:14,919
We would use favorites for

539
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,739
people at the beginning and

540
00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:18,399
at the end when they were in a

541
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,400
fairly normal state.

542
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:22,439
So we more or less eliminated

543
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,260
all but the classical selections.

544
00:19:25,870 --> 00:19:27,549
It's during this period that the

545
00:19:27,550 --> 00:19:29,309
practice of using classical music

546
00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:30,909
during a psychedelic session became

547
00:19:30,910 --> 00:19:32,329
a standard at the psychiatric

548
00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:33,469
center.

549
00:19:33,470 --> 00:19:35,769
Thanks to this newish invention,

550
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:37,009
cassette tapes.

551
00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:38,189
This was something that hadn't been

552
00:19:38,190 --> 00:19:39,789
done before. Before you were using

553
00:19:39,790 --> 00:19:41,069
records, she puts together these

554
00:19:41,070 --> 00:19:43,229
tapes and you start using them in

555
00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:44,909
the context of psychedelic therapy.

556
00:19:44,910 --> 00:19:46,159
Is that what happened?

557
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,119
Yes, not necessarily

558
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:50,339
exclusively using them,

559
00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:53,059
but they were one resource.

560
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:54,979
I still have her cassettes.

561
00:19:54,980 --> 00:19:56,179
You do?

562
00:19:56,180 --> 00:19:56,959
Really?

563
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,099
You've kept them.

564
00:19:59,620 --> 00:20:02,319
How did having those tapes change

565
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,159
things for the work that you were

566
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,829
all doing at the psychiatric center?

567
00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:08,689
Well, it freed up the

568
00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:10,549
therapist to

569
00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:12,749
stay centered, to be

570
00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:14,689
present with the patient

571
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:17,029
rather than being distracted

572
00:20:17,030 --> 00:20:19,369
by what shall I choose next?

573
00:20:19,370 --> 00:20:21,789
The record's almost over

574
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:23,630
as I call it playing disc

575
00:20:23,631 --> 00:20:25,010
jockey all day.

576
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,719
By 1970, the federal government

577
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,459
had made most psychedelics illegal.

578
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:33,299
By 1976, psychedelic studies

579
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:34,899
had stopped altogether at the

580
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,059
Maryland Psychiatric Research

581
00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:37,060
Center.

582
00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:38,979
But by then, Helen had already moved

583
00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:41,079
on to something new, because while

584
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,239
she was at the psychiatric center,

585
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:44,719
Helen began testing something she

586
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,039
had been thinking about for some

587
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,079
time.

588
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,119
That music, on its own,

589
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,439
without psychedelics, could produce

590
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,440
an altered state.

591
00:20:56,290 --> 00:20:57,909
She actually tested her theory out

592
00:20:57,910 --> 00:20:59,289
with the family members and friends

593
00:20:59,290 --> 00:21:00,889
who accompanied patients when they

594
00:21:00,890 --> 00:21:02,190
came in for a psychedelic session.

595
00:21:03,610 --> 00:21:05,549
When there were couples, one

596
00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:07,089
of the persons would have a session,

597
00:21:07,090 --> 00:21:08,809
the other person had to wait all the

598
00:21:08,810 --> 00:21:10,829
10 or 12 hours because I

599
00:21:10,830 --> 00:21:12,509
was a woman and I took care of them.

600
00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:13,889
She would take the accompanying

601
00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:15,829
person into a room and basically

602
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:17,949
mimic an LSD session without

603
00:21:17,950 --> 00:21:19,149
the drug.

604
00:21:19,150 --> 00:21:20,609
She describes testing this out in

605
00:21:20,610 --> 00:21:22,499
the talk she gave in 1995.

606
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:24,279
So I remember this day, this woman

607
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,139
came in and I laid

608
00:21:26,140 --> 00:21:28,279
her down on the couch and I

609
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,159
said, now I will just

610
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,239
pretend I'm giving you the drug and

611
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,699
I'll start playing some of the music

612
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:35,639
that we use.

613
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,599
Well, for three hours,

614
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,619
we listened to music.

615
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:42,969
She said the people she tried this

616
00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:44,969
with would often have these really

617
00:21:44,970 --> 00:21:46,669
strong experiences.

618
00:21:46,670 --> 00:21:48,989
And again, no drugs involved,

619
00:21:48,990 --> 00:21:49,969
just music.

620
00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:52,069
She was talking the whole time,

621
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:54,149
giving me all this wonderful imagery

622
00:21:54,150 --> 00:21:56,189
that was happening for her.

623
00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:57,309
And that's when the light bulb went

624
00:21:57,310 --> 00:21:58,310
off for me.

625
00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:01,699
For Helen, the benefit of just

626
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,979
listening to music was clear.

627
00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:05,699
Afterwards, they get the husband and

628
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,139
wife together. And of course, he'd

629
00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:08,119
had amnesia.

630
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:09,559
He didn't have anything to share

631
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,219
from the drug experience.

632
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:13,099
And she was, she was talking

633
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:14,100
away.

634
00:22:15,650 --> 00:22:17,729
She said that her patients tended to

635
00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:19,589
remember these experiences more

636
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:21,329
strongly than the people who would

637
00:22:21,330 --> 00:22:23,519
come out of an LSD session.

638
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,359
It doesn't help unless you have

639
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,339
a memory for what you've

640
00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:28,340
gone through.

641
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,519
These tests that she ran on the

642
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,799
side, they became the foundation for

643
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,639
an entirely new form

644
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,519
of therapy that she called guided

645
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,399
imagery and music.

646
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,319
She founded this new modality in

647
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,319
the seventies and it gained traction

648
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,219
in psychology and music therapy

649
00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:45,900
circles in the US and abroad.

650
00:22:47,540 --> 00:22:49,019
Here she is describing a session in

651
00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:50,779
a documentary made by Bonny

652
00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:51,900
Institute Productions.

653
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:56,219
I'm watching Jill's breathing

654
00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:57,619
patterns change.

655
00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:01,139
Her body is becoming progressively

656
00:23:01,140 --> 00:23:02,220
more relaxed.

657
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,460
She is going deeply.

658
00:23:07,060 --> 00:23:08,060
Very fast.

659
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,539
Very heavy.

660
00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:15,499
Just let it be heavy.

661
00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:17,379
Let yourself go as completely as you

662
00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:18,380
can.

663
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:21,949
In just a short while, you're going

664
00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:24,349
to be hearing the music.

665
00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:25,949
You let yourself go with the music

666
00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:27,649
and let the music take you wherever

667
00:23:27,650 --> 00:23:28,650
you need to go.

668
00:23:29,890 --> 00:23:31,869
My mind is fully concentrated on

669
00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:32,870
her experience.

670
00:23:33,930 --> 00:23:35,789
I try in my imagination

671
00:23:35,790 --> 00:23:37,829
to see what she is seeing,

672
00:23:38,910 --> 00:23:41,209
feel what she is feeling to

673
00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:42,210
keep in touch.

674
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,359
Today, the Bonnie method of guided

675
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:46,859
imagery and music is still

676
00:23:46,860 --> 00:23:48,339
considered an effective form of

677
00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:49,340
music therapy.

678
00:23:52,570 --> 00:23:54,589
In the year 2000, psychedelic

679
00:23:54,590 --> 00:23:56,509
science resumed in earnest in the

680
00:23:56,510 --> 00:23:57,629
US.

681
00:23:57,630 --> 00:23:59,149
Researchers at Johns Hopkins, where

682
00:23:59,150 --> 00:24:00,929
Bill Richards worked, secured

683
00:24:00,930 --> 00:24:02,089
government approval to study

684
00:24:02,090 --> 00:24:03,769
psychedelics in healthy people who'd

685
00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:05,909
never taken these substances.

686
00:24:05,910 --> 00:24:08,489
And to prepare for this big moment,

687
00:24:08,490 --> 00:24:09,829
Bill made a playlist.

688
00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:14,309
The challenge in making a playlist

689
00:24:14,310 --> 00:24:16,309
is to

690
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:18,389
separate the very good from the

691
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:19,390
excellent.

692
00:24:20,670 --> 00:24:22,609
It's not black and white,

693
00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:25,269
right, wrong kind of thing.

694
00:24:25,270 --> 00:24:27,249
And when most people say, boy,

695
00:24:27,250 --> 00:24:29,749
that was really helpful,

696
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:31,729
then you think, man, maybe there's

697
00:24:31,730 --> 00:24:34,089
something universal in this music

698
00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:35,909
that within our

699
00:24:35,910 --> 00:24:37,949
minds, there are layers

700
00:24:37,950 --> 00:24:40,929
of human consciousness.

701
00:24:40,930 --> 00:24:42,869
That are just kind of

702
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:45,549
genetically given, if you will,

703
00:24:45,550 --> 00:24:47,669
perhaps encoded in our DNA

704
00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:49,909
and it has

705
00:24:49,910 --> 00:24:51,909
nothing to do with our

706
00:24:51,910 --> 00:24:54,229
personal preferences or

707
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:56,049
the preferences of our therapists

708
00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:57,549
for that matter.

709
00:24:57,550 --> 00:24:59,609
You know, it's just something in

710
00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:01,589
the very structure of

711
00:25:01,590 --> 00:25:04,209
the sound itself that

712
00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:06,309
is facilitative and

713
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:07,670
supportive and helpful.

714
00:25:09,010 --> 00:25:10,989
And that's what those of us who make

715
00:25:10,990 --> 00:25:12,889
playlists try to find, I

716
00:25:12,890 --> 00:25:13,749
think.

717
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:15,589
You know, what is it that

718
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:18,749
speaks to these universal

719
00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:21,419
tendencies deep within us?

720
00:25:21,420 --> 00:25:23,459
And was there a basis for

721
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:25,299
the playlist itself in terms of

722
00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:26,659
the research? Like what were you

723
00:25:26,660 --> 00:25:27,660
sourcing from?

724
00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:31,809
My own knowledge of music.

725
00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:34,419
And of course, Helen's tapes.

726
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:36,439
I certainly used

727
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,299
pieces of many of her

728
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:39,259
tapes.

729
00:25:39,260 --> 00:25:41,639
For example, her peak experience

730
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,819
playlist includes

731
00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:45,779
many, probably most

732
00:25:45,780 --> 00:25:47,879
of the works in

733
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,519
the Hopkins playlist.

734
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,179
I'd have to listen to it to find

735
00:25:51,180 --> 00:25:53,119
out. Actually, I don't think I

736
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,119
have a cassette player to listen to

737
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:56,120
it on anymore.

738
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,259
The thing that Sughra and I both

739
00:25:59,260 --> 00:26:01,139
wish to understand was about

740
00:26:01,140 --> 00:26:03,139
the history of the playlist, but

741
00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:05,619
also how it ended up being so

742
00:26:05,620 --> 00:26:07,319
specific.

743
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,320
So I asked Bill,

744
00:26:09,460 --> 00:26:10,639
there is quite a bit of classical

745
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,319
music in the playlist, including

746
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,279
songs that I think maybe

747
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,259
there's a little bit of an

748
00:26:15,260 --> 00:26:16,559
over-representation of songs that

749
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,879
some people would characterize as

750
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,419
having a little of a Christian bent.

751
00:26:19,420 --> 00:26:21,459
Some of them have, you know, they're

752
00:26:21,460 --> 00:26:22,439
actual masses.

753
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,459
We're talking about like.

754
00:26:24,460 --> 00:26:26,479
Vivaldi's Gloria in D major.

755
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,719
There's the Mass in B Minor by

756
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:29,719
Bach.

757
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:30,819
I think there's even the St.

758
00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:33,039
Petersburg choir as well, right?

759
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,159
Was that intentional to have

760
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,019
Christian music in the

761
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:38,020
playlist?

762
00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:40,909
Well, when we first made it,

763
00:26:40,910 --> 00:26:43,069
most of our volunteers were

764
00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:44,329
Christian.

765
00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:46,349
In fact, even including Christian

766
00:26:46,350 --> 00:26:48,189
clergy, and

767
00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:50,329
it was music I was personally fond

768
00:26:50,330 --> 00:26:51,890
of and I chose it.

769
00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:55,689
Subsequent variations,

770
00:26:55,690 --> 00:26:58,189
for example, we

771
00:26:58,190 --> 00:27:00,289
just completed a study

772
00:27:00,290 --> 00:27:02,469
at Hopkins with

773
00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:04,249
religious leaders from different

774
00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:05,939
world religions.

775
00:27:05,940 --> 00:27:07,819
And the playlist

776
00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:09,959
we used for that was

777
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,809
much less Christian.

778
00:27:11,810 --> 00:27:13,909
But this more toned down playlist

779
00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:16,149
still registered as very Christian

780
00:27:16,150 --> 00:27:17,150
for Sughra.

781
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:19,309
So it kind of sounds like, you know,

782
00:27:19,310 --> 00:27:20,469
by virtue of who was putting

783
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:22,349
together this music in the sixties

784
00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:24,309
and seventies, and then you

785
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:26,449
coming back to it in 1999, that's

786
00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:28,789
why there were quite a few

787
00:27:28,790 --> 00:27:30,269
Christian songs.

788
00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:32,089
Yes, in the early days we

789
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:33,889
were working primarily with

790
00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:35,849
treatment of alcoholism and

791
00:27:35,850 --> 00:27:37,009
narcotic addiction.

792
00:27:38,610 --> 00:27:40,509
And many of those people

793
00:27:40,510 --> 00:27:42,719
did have Christian backgrounds.

794
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,419
Okay. So that felt appropriate for

795
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:45,859
those individuals.

796
00:27:45,860 --> 00:27:47,299
That's right.

797
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:49,279
If someone, if they already know

798
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,819
what's going to be played before

799
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:53,739
the session starts, or if they're

800
00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:55,179
in the session and they say, Hey, I

801
00:27:55,180 --> 00:27:57,319
really don't like this song, what

802
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,119
would you counsel a music therapist

803
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,759
to do or a guide rather?

804
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,899
Thanks for asking that.

805
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:05,719
Because often there is

806
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,979
the experience of saying,

807
00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:09,879
I can't stand the screeching

808
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:10,880
soprano,

809
00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:14,899
please change the music.

810
00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:17,079
I hate this music.

811
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,019
The way I've learned to deal with

812
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:20,859
that is to encourage

813
00:28:20,860 --> 00:28:22,799
the person to hate it with

814
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:23,939
passion.

815
00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:25,779
Wait, what do you mean by that?

816
00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:27,179
Hate it with passionate.

817
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:29,299
It will be over soon.

818
00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:31,479
No peace goes on forever.

819
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,619
The playlist will change,

820
00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:35,499
but right now just go ahead

821
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:36,879
and hate it.

822
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,899
You know, I mean, there are extreme

823
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:40,939
situations where I might change

824
00:28:40,940 --> 00:28:42,779
it, but generally I

825
00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:44,699
have learned that when

826
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:46,619
I encourage the person

827
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:48,799
to just hate it and keep

828
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,699
continuing,

829
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:52,779
many times the person will say, Oh,

830
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:55,279
that's so much better, thank you.

831
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,380
And it's the same music playing.

832
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,739
So what is going

833
00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:03,139
on often is

834
00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:05,719
that something frightening

835
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,619
at the growing edge of

836
00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:09,479
that person's development is

837
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,479
emerging and the

838
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,539
music is facilitating it

839
00:29:13,540 --> 00:29:15,739
and the person wants to avoid

840
00:29:15,740 --> 00:29:17,919
it, escape from it,

841
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,419
turn it off.

842
00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:21,339
And they think by changing the

843
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:23,419
music, they can escape

844
00:29:23,420 --> 00:29:25,519
it. Where, if they

845
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:26,520
stay with it, maybe

846
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,459
with a little extra support from

847
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:31,339
the therapist,

848
00:29:31,340 --> 00:29:33,379
the very same music is

849
00:29:33,380 --> 00:29:35,119
experienced as helpful.

850
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,939
I'm glad you brought up the

851
00:29:37,940 --> 00:29:39,659
religious leaders study because we

852
00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:40,759
actually spoke to one of the

853
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,899
participants of that study, Sughra,

854
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:43,549
do you remember her?

855
00:29:43,550 --> 00:29:45,729
Oh, yes, lucky you.

856
00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:47,809
Yeah, no, she's fantastic.

857
00:29:47,810 --> 00:29:49,789
And she herself mentioned to us

858
00:29:49,790 --> 00:29:51,249
that a lot of the music had a

859
00:29:51,250 --> 00:29:52,989
Christian bent and, you know, she

860
00:29:52,990 --> 00:29:54,829
talked about how she felt that it

861
00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:56,769
was a little churchy, you now,

862
00:29:56,770 --> 00:29:57,889
cathedral music, very

863
00:29:57,890 --> 00:29:59,469
Euro-Christian.

864
00:29:59,470 --> 00:30:00,729
And she said that she would have

865
00:30:00,730 --> 00:30:02,669
preferred to hear music that

866
00:30:02,670 --> 00:30:04,489
was more part of

867
00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:06,349
her own tradition, right?

868
00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:07,829
Islamic musical tradition.

869
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:09,829
She said she's Punjabi, that

870
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:10,669
it would have been nice to hear

871
00:30:10,670 --> 00:30:12,409
maybe the dhol, those kinds of

872
00:30:12,410 --> 00:30:14,329
instruments, but that that was not

873
00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:15,219
possible.

874
00:30:15,220 --> 00:30:16,859
And so I'm curious, what's your

875
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:17,879
reaction to that?

876
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,299
I'm sure you were already aware of

877
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:21,079
her saying that, but yeah, what do

878
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:21,859
you think of that?

879
00:30:21,860 --> 00:30:23,799
I agree with her a hundred

880
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,619
percent, you know, if

881
00:30:25,620 --> 00:30:27,659
we could have designed

882
00:30:27,660 --> 00:30:29,519
the playlist for

883
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,699
each person separately,

884
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:34,539
it certainly we would have had more

885
00:30:34,540 --> 00:30:36,959
Islamic music for her.

886
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,279
I wish we could've done better.

887
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,799
If there's a defense, it's that

888
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,679
there's only 24 hours in

889
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,039
a day and I'm just one person and

890
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,119
I do the best I can, but

891
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,109
there are.

892
00:30:48,110 --> 00:30:50,049
I'm sure there are other

893
00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:52,189
playlists that can be every bit as

894
00:30:52,190 --> 00:30:53,059
effective.

895
00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:54,439
Why wasn't it possible to have

896
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,479
individual playlists for every

897
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,529
participant?

898
00:30:57,530 --> 00:30:59,549
Well, we like to standardize

899
00:30:59,550 --> 00:31:02,189
things in the research world.

900
00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:03,809
Bill explained to me that there are

901
00:31:03,810 --> 00:31:05,449
already lots of variables to take

902
00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:07,709
into account, like people's ages,

903
00:31:07,710 --> 00:31:09,969
different dosages, and so

904
00:31:09,970 --> 00:31:11,809
whatever they can keep the same

905
00:31:11,810 --> 00:31:13,649
across participants,

906
00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:14,659
they do.

907
00:31:14,660 --> 00:31:16,739
And yet the study was written

908
00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:18,819
to allow for clinical

909
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:21,119
judgment that the therapist,

910
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,569
if justified, could deviate.

911
00:31:23,570 --> 00:31:25,269
Okay, but it still wasn't possible

912
00:31:25,270 --> 00:31:27,169
to add more songs from her own

913
00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:28,119
tradition.

914
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,019
Well, if we had thought about it

915
00:31:30,020 --> 00:31:32,039
more, maybe we might

916
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,040
have.

917
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,619
My conversation with Bill yielded

918
00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:39,099
a lot of answers to some major

919
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:41,059
questions, but it also brought

920
00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:43,199
up some new ones about

921
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,999
what music in general does for our

922
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,279
brains while taking psychedelics.

923
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:48,779
Do we actually know?

924
00:31:48,780 --> 00:31:50,239
How is it contributing to people's

925
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,679
experiences exactly?

926
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:52,959
And has anyone looked at which types

927
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,019
of music are better or worse?

928
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,359
Hear, what I found out after

929
00:31:58,360 --> 00:31:59,360
the break.

930
00:32:06,990 --> 00:32:09,169
I've played the trumpet the longest.

931
00:32:09,170 --> 00:32:11,009
I also play the drums

932
00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:12,829
and the guitar and

933
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:14,369
the bass and the violin.

934
00:32:14,370 --> 00:32:16,429
This is Fred Barrett.

935
00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:17,449
And according to the state of

936
00:32:17,450 --> 00:32:19,449
Pennsylvania, I can play and teach

937
00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:21,149
all standard band and orchestra

938
00:32:21,150 --> 00:32:22,409
instruments up to a third grade

939
00:32:22,410 --> 00:32:23,410
level. But it's been a while.

940
00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:28,339
Fred is a musician, but he

941
00:32:28,340 --> 00:32:29,859
also works at Johns Hopkins

942
00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:31,079
University.

943
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,639
He's actually the director of the

944
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,579
Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic

945
00:32:34,580 --> 00:32:36,719
and Consciousness Research.

946
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,779
I am trained as a cognitive

947
00:32:38,780 --> 00:32:40,819
neuroscientist who's completed

948
00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:42,159
a fellowship in behavioral

949
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,160
pharmacology.

950
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,199
His research focuses on memory,

951
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,019
music, and psychedelics, a mix

952
00:32:48,020 --> 00:32:50,519
of topics he's passionate about.

953
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,359
Just recognizing that all

954
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,579
of these things, musical

955
00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:56,019
experiences, emotions, memories,

956
00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:58,279
pharmacologically mediated or not,

957
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,659
really cut to the core of who we are

958
00:32:59,660 --> 00:33:01,379
as people sometimes.

959
00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:03,359
And that's endlessly fascinating

960
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,299
to me.

961
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:06,019
I honestly have trouble thinking of

962
00:33:06,020 --> 00:33:07,659
anything more interesting or

963
00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:08,599
important that I could be doing with

964
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:09,600
my life.

965
00:33:10,570 --> 00:33:12,349
With that background and passion,

966
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:14,289
Fred seemed like the ideal person

967
00:33:14,290 --> 00:33:15,749
to walk me through the science of

968
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:17,389
what music does to our brains while

969
00:33:17,390 --> 00:33:18,529
tripping.

970
00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:20,589
When he started at Johns Hopkins,

971
00:33:20,590 --> 00:33:21,869
Fred had a lot of thoughts and

972
00:33:21,870 --> 00:33:22,819
ideas.

973
00:33:22,820 --> 00:33:25,199
So here I come in 2013,

974
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,299
arriving from UC Davis, having

975
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:28,479
completed a PhD,

976
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,779
spending six years of my life deeply

977
00:33:29,780 --> 00:33:31,499
invested in the question of what

978
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:33,419
music does to people and how to

979
00:33:33,420 --> 00:33:34,779
select music to evoke specific

980
00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:36,399
experiences. And so I sat down and I

981
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,639
asked Roland, what's going on with

982
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,749
the music?

983
00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:40,309
Along with Bill Richards, Roland

984
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:42,049
Griffiths was an early psychedelic

985
00:33:42,050 --> 00:33:43,449
researcher who led the religious

986
00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:45,329
leaders study, the one that Sughra

987
00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:46,809
Ahmed was in.

988
00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:48,709
So during Fred's first days on

989
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:50,649
the job, Roland told him that

990
00:33:50,650 --> 00:33:52,169
the purpose of the playlist was

991
00:33:52,170 --> 00:33:53,789
partly to standardize the study

992
00:33:53,790 --> 00:33:54,509
setting.

993
00:33:54,510 --> 00:33:55,889
I remember him kind of briefly

994
00:33:55,890 --> 00:33:56,909
explaining this to me.

995
00:33:56,910 --> 00:33:58,309
And I said, well, that's interesting.

996
00:33:58,310 --> 00:34:00,109
Making everybody listen to the same

997
00:34:00,110 --> 00:34:02,129
music is all

998
00:34:02,130 --> 00:34:03,709
but guaranteeing that everyone's

999
00:34:03,710 --> 00:34:04,929
going to have a different experience

1000
00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:07,029
because people respond

1001
00:34:07,030 --> 00:34:08,789
to music differently, they do.

1002
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:10,709
And this is no knock on Bill

1003
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:11,959
or the playlist.

1004
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,899
What do we know about the Hopkins

1005
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:15,279
playlist? What has been studied

1006
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,269
about it?

1007
00:34:16,270 --> 00:34:17,908
So there's a pretty famous landmark

1008
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:18,909
study here at Hopkins.

1009
00:34:20,050 --> 00:34:21,549
The study that Fred told me about

1010
00:34:21,550 --> 00:34:23,448
was actually an offshoot of

1011
00:34:23,449 --> 00:34:25,129
a clinical trial on tobacco use

1012
00:34:25,130 --> 00:34:26,709
disorder that had a pretty big

1013
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:28,009
impact on how we think about

1014
00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:29,948
treating substance use disorders as

1015
00:34:29,949 --> 00:34:31,069
a whole.

1016
00:34:31,070 --> 00:34:32,908
The music study was sort of a side

1017
00:34:32,909 --> 00:34:33,789
project.

1018
00:34:33,790 --> 00:34:35,229
The researchers had the participants

1019
00:34:35,230 --> 00:34:36,869
listen to two different playlists

1020
00:34:36,870 --> 00:34:37,870
during their sessions.

1021
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,178
Over the first few sessions,

1022
00:34:42,179 --> 00:34:43,819
participants heard either the Johns

1023
00:34:43,820 --> 00:34:45,859
Hopkins playlist or an

1024
00:34:45,860 --> 00:34:47,718
overtone playlist, a playlist with

1025
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,779
a bunch of performances of music

1026
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:51,459
by instruments that had a great

1027
00:34:51,460 --> 00:34:52,599
number of overtones, including

1028
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:53,819
things like didgeridoo and certain

1029
00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:55,738
types of gong.

1030
00:34:55,739 --> 00:34:57,079
And then for the third session,

1031
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,099
participants got to choose which

1032
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,100
playlist they heard.

1033
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,879
The researchers found that people

1034
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,699
chose the overtone playlist for

1035
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,399
their third session at about the

1036
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,099
same rate as they chose the Hopkins

1037
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:08,899
playlist.

1038
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:10,419
Listening to the overtone playlist

1039
00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:12,519
did not impair the

1040
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,359
therapeutic response long-term

1041
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,419
and that at its very least,

1042
00:35:16,420 --> 00:35:17,679
people didn't necessarily prefer the

1043
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,539
Hopkins playlist reliably over the

1044
00:35:19,540 --> 00:35:20,540
overtone playlist.

1045
00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:25,069
That study was published in 2020 and

1046
00:35:25,070 --> 00:35:26,079
according to Fred.

1047
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,379
That was the first, at least

1048
00:35:27,380 --> 00:35:29,519
somewhat rigorous analysis

1049
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,539
of whether there's something

1050
00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:32,779
really special about this playlist

1051
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:34,459
compared to other playlists.

1052
00:35:34,460 --> 00:35:35,979
That's really as much as has been

1053
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:37,059
done so far.

1054
00:35:37,060 --> 00:35:38,699
The impact of having so little

1055
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:40,479
research on this is that scientists

1056
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,459
still don't know all that much about

1057
00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:43,819
the different ways in which music

1058
00:35:43,820 --> 00:35:45,439
can impact the psychedelic

1059
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,499
experience.

1060
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:48,879
With the caveat that there are

1061
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,059
a number of practitioners in

1062
00:35:51,060 --> 00:35:53,319
the world who are

1063
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,339
quite convinced that they know

1064
00:35:55,340 --> 00:35:57,399
how to select music to

1065
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,759
facilitate and best guide and

1066
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,099
optimize the psychedelic experience.

1067
00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:02,939
And I don't

1068
00:36:02,940 --> 00:36:04,919
doubt that some of them are

1069
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,929
definitely skilled in that regard.

1070
00:36:07,930 --> 00:36:09,889
The problem is that doesn't mean we

1071
00:36:09,890 --> 00:36:11,549
understand it in a way that we can

1072
00:36:11,550 --> 00:36:13,169
translate it or operationalize it.

1073
00:36:13,170 --> 00:36:14,849
It doesn't that we necessarily know

1074
00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:16,849
the best way to train others to

1075
00:36:16,850 --> 00:36:18,249
do this.

1076
00:36:18,250 --> 00:36:20,589
And so as a shameless self-plug,

1077
00:36:20,590 --> 00:36:22,149
a few of us at Hopkins published a

1078
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:24,009
scoping review of work done on

1079
00:36:24,010 --> 00:36:25,529
set and setting. This was published

1080
00:36:25,530 --> 00:36:26,959
in 2022.

1081
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,459
Fred and his team went looking for

1082
00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:30,299
all the set and setting studies they

1083
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:32,399
could find and they went way

1084
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,139
back, even digging up research

1085
00:36:34,140 --> 00:36:36,819
papers dating back to the 1930s.

1086
00:36:36,820 --> 00:36:38,599
We basically scoured the published

1087
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,439
literature from as far back as

1088
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,579
we could reach.

1089
00:36:41,580 --> 00:36:42,879
And what they found was

1090
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,059
underwhelming.

1091
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:45,539
After they removed the studies that

1092
00:36:45,540 --> 00:36:47,159
didn't actually test anything or

1093
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,339
compare at least two different

1094
00:36:48,340 --> 00:36:50,159
environmental conditions, the

1095
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,059
researchers were left with fewer

1096
00:36:52,060 --> 00:36:53,849
than 30 studies.

1097
00:36:53,850 --> 00:36:54,929
And one of the things that we

1098
00:36:54,930 --> 00:36:56,329
realized upon digging through all

1099
00:36:56,330 --> 00:36:58,209
this literature is that there's

1100
00:36:58,210 --> 00:36:59,949
a lot of received wisdom.

1101
00:36:59,950 --> 00:37:01,689
Oh, obviously set and setting is

1102
00:37:01,690 --> 00:37:03,509
important. Obviously music is

1103
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:05,349
important, obviously you should do

1104
00:37:05,350 --> 00:37:06,449
things this way and that way.

1105
00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:07,489
Well, why do you say that?

1106
00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:09,329
Well, because, because it's obvious

1107
00:37:09,330 --> 00:37:11,549
or because maybe someone experienced

1108
00:37:11,550 --> 00:37:12,829
it and is reporting that back or

1109
00:37:12,830 --> 00:37:13,889
because they heard it from someone

1110
00:37:13,890 --> 00:37:15,049
else who trained them.

1111
00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:17,129
And again, not knocking clinical

1112
00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:19,109
experience or expertise,

1113
00:37:19,110 --> 00:37:21,209
but that doesn't mean that we

1114
00:37:21,210 --> 00:37:22,409
actually truly know it.

1115
00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:23,709
At least from a scientific

1116
00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:24,559
standpoint, right?

1117
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:25,519
Exactly.

1118
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,419
There's a bit of a vein of

1119
00:37:27,420 --> 00:37:29,399
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

1120
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,799
To a degree, the set and setting

1121
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,699
model we have right now

1122
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:34,859
obviously has generated the

1123
00:37:34,860 --> 00:37:36,099
results that everybody's excited

1124
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:37,179
about. It works.

1125
00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:38,259
What's the big deal?

1126
00:37:38,260 --> 00:37:39,839
We should just continue doing this,

1127
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,679
but you know, it also isn't that

1128
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,079
simple because psychedelic therapy

1129
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,659
doesn't work for everyone.

1130
00:37:44,660 --> 00:37:46,599
And some of the aspects of set and

1131
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,019
settings, if they could be changed

1132
00:37:48,020 --> 00:37:49,959
or optimized or modified,

1133
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,809
could we do a lot better?

1134
00:37:51,810 --> 00:37:53,689
Not only that, but most

1135
00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:54,989
of the work that has been done was

1136
00:37:54,990 --> 00:37:57,089
done on what scientists call WEIRD

1137
00:37:57,090 --> 00:37:58,090
populations: Western,

1138
00:37:59,110 --> 00:38:01,069
Educated, Industrialized,

1139
00:38:01,070 --> 00:38:03,149
Rich and Democratic.

1140
00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:04,529
And Fred says that means the

1141
00:38:04,530 --> 00:38:06,549
findings don't necessarily apply to

1142
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:07,550
a global population.

1143
00:38:10,170 --> 00:38:11,649
What questions do you think we still

1144
00:38:11,650 --> 00:38:14,229
need to answer when it comes to

1145
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:16,109
the Hopkins playlist specifically in

1146
00:38:16,110 --> 00:38:16,839
its use?

1147
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,939
I think it'd be helpful to

1148
00:38:17,940 --> 00:38:19,759
understand what's necessary

1149
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,519
in the playlist and what's not,

1150
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,459
whether you can tailor it at least

1151
00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:25,359
at some level by giving

1152
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,199
people an option to opt out of

1153
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,659
the things that they could a priori

1154
00:38:29,660 --> 00:38:31,759
identify as problematic

1155
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,999
for them, whether it truly tracks

1156
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,819
the time course of drug effect for

1157
00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:36,779
most people.

1158
00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:38,679
Can we pick and choose songs to keep

1159
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,549
or drop based on whether

1160
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:42,389
a participant has late onset of

1161
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:43,249
psychedelic experience?

1162
00:38:43,250 --> 00:38:45,089
Or abbreviated peak period?

1163
00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:47,029
And or are there other

1164
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:48,589
songs that we could insert at

1165
00:38:48,590 --> 00:38:50,549
various times to kind of

1166
00:38:50,550 --> 00:38:51,529
increase the likelihood that a

1167
00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:52,408
person has a peak experience?

1168
00:38:52,409 --> 00:38:54,509
And are

1169
00:38:54,510 --> 00:38:55,949
there clearly identified populations

1170
00:38:55,950 --> 00:38:57,129
for whom the playlist really just

1171
00:38:57,130 --> 00:38:58,109
doesn't work?

1172
00:38:58,110 --> 00:39:00,169
What does the music do without

1173
00:39:00,170 --> 00:39:01,969
drug on board and without the

1174
00:39:01,970 --> 00:39:02,949
expectation that you're going to

1175
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:04,110
have a psychedelic experience?

1176
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,239
I was very surprised to hear that

1177
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:08,059
last bit.

1178
00:39:08,060 --> 00:39:09,899
So I told Fred the Helen Bonny

1179
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:11,759
story about her doing mock

1180
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,719
LSD sessions with music alone.

1181
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:16,359
I'd never heard that story before,

1182
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,719
but it makes perfect sense.

1183
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:20,659
And it aligns with something

1184
00:39:20,660 --> 00:39:22,019
else I haven't told you yet, which

1185
00:39:22,020 --> 00:39:23,439
is we're in the process of writing

1186
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,639
this up right now, but we

1187
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,499
conducted a pilot study and

1188
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:30,099
this study is no drug on board,

1189
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:32,059
just music under this mild

1190
00:39:32,060 --> 00:39:34,079
sensory deprivation context.

1191
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,019
We lined people up with an hour of

1192
00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:38,319
music listening in the style of

1193
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,779
a psychedelic therapy session.

1194
00:39:39,780 --> 00:39:41,539
And that doesn't sound quite like

1195
00:39:41,540 --> 00:39:42,999
what Helen Bonny did, but.

1196
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,879
We bring people in for a

1197
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:45,899
preparation session.

1198
00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:47,939
We then invite them for an hour long

1199
00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:49,919
music listening session where we lie

1200
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,359
them down on a couch with eye shades

1201
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:52,999
and headphones tucked into a warm

1202
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,639
comfy blanket and listening to music

1203
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,579
turn inward, be present for whatever

1204
00:39:56,580 --> 00:39:57,779
arises in consciousness.

1205
00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,139
We're also collecting EEG data,

1206
00:40:00,140 --> 00:40:01,339
some other psychophysiological

1207
00:40:01,340 --> 00:40:02,979
measurements and a host of

1208
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:04,279
questionnaires the day of the next

1209
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,059
day and a week later to see if any

1210
00:40:06,060 --> 00:40:07,559
of these playlists, just the music

1211
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,899
listening has an impact on people

1212
00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:09,900
short or long term.

1213
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,319
Fred says the preliminary findings

1214
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,059
are quite remarkable.

1215
00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:16,039
The researchers witnessed

1216
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,919
participants crying,

1217
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,179
sobbing, laughing to tears,

1218
00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:22,789
a full range of human emotion.

1219
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:24,709
And some people even, this

1220
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:26,509
is a 30 participant study, some

1221
00:40:26,510 --> 00:40:28,629
people, even reported experiencing

1222
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:30,029
synesthesia.

1223
00:40:30,030 --> 00:40:32,069
Meaning that some people had sensory

1224
00:40:32,070 --> 00:40:33,989
crossovers, like feeling or

1225
00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:35,889
tasting colors.

1226
00:40:35,890 --> 00:40:37,109
Fred told me that the way the study

1227
00:40:37,110 --> 00:40:38,889
was built, each participant took

1228
00:40:38,890 --> 00:40:41,209
part in four different sessions.

1229
00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:42,449
Everyone listened to the Hopkins

1230
00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:45,109
playlist in one of their sessions.

1231
00:40:45,110 --> 00:40:46,789
Then in another session,

1232
00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:48,269
participants listened to music that

1233
00:40:48,270 --> 00:40:50,789
was personally meaningful to them.

1234
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:52,969
In the remaining two sessions,

1235
00:40:52,970 --> 00:40:54,289
participants listened to either

1236
00:40:54,290 --> 00:40:56,649
nature sounds, electronic music,

1237
00:40:56,650 --> 00:40:58,489
overtone music, classic psychedelic

1238
00:40:58,490 --> 00:41:00,319
rock. Or a playlist that was built

1239
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,920
for the study by a sound healer.

1240
00:41:03,090 --> 00:41:05,049
Suffice to say, the music

1241
00:41:05,050 --> 00:41:06,989
is definitely doing something.

1242
00:41:06,990 --> 00:41:08,829
And we're hoping this paper

1243
00:41:08,830 --> 00:41:10,909
will be real kind of eye opener and

1244
00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:12,049
real talking point for people

1245
00:41:12,050 --> 00:41:14,689
because compared to psychedelics,

1246
00:41:14,690 --> 00:41:16,349
I think we often expect the music

1247
00:41:16,350 --> 00:41:18,409
alone to really not be driving

1248
00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:19,869
a lot of this.

1249
00:41:19,870 --> 00:41:21,669
But that has yet to be seen.

1250
00:41:24,540 --> 00:41:26,219
When I was speaking with Bill

1251
00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:28,119
Richards, he was telling me,

1252
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,919
for him, music is really the safety

1253
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,339
net, the supportive thing that helps

1254
00:41:31,340 --> 00:41:33,159
move you along, that transports

1255
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,079
you, but it doesn't cause

1256
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,939
any of the content.

1257
00:41:36,940 --> 00:41:38,219
And I would love to know what you

1258
00:41:38,220 --> 00:41:39,220
think of that.

1259
00:41:39,790 --> 00:41:43,089
That's an interesting assertion.

1260
00:41:43,090 --> 00:41:44,929
And I don't believe

1261
00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:46,559
that's been tested.

1262
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,379
Dr. Richards also told me

1263
00:41:48,380 --> 00:41:49,959
that a therapist heeding a request

1264
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,239
to change the music during a session

1265
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,419
should be extremely rare.

1266
00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:54,499
That there have been instances where

1267
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:55,639
people have told me, I really hate

1268
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:56,739
this music.

1269
00:41:56,740 --> 00:41:58,939
And that his response was,

1270
00:41:58,940 --> 00:42:00,979
then hate it with a passion.

1271
00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:02,389
What do you make of that?

1272
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:04,529
It gives me pause due

1273
00:42:04,530 --> 00:42:06,269
to the potential that a therapist

1274
00:42:06,270 --> 00:42:08,149
insisting that to be the case is

1275
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:10,069
ignoring safety signals in a

1276
00:42:10,070 --> 00:42:11,829
participant's experience.

1277
00:42:11,830 --> 00:42:13,649
You know, I'm not aware of instances

1278
00:42:13,650 --> 00:42:14,789
where those things have really

1279
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:16,669
caused harm, but I worry

1280
00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:18,549
that it leads to some element of

1281
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:20,030
self-blame or victim blaming, like

1282
00:42:20,031 --> 00:42:21,209
you're having this experience

1283
00:42:21,210 --> 00:42:22,369
because it's something in yourself

1284
00:42:22,370 --> 00:42:23,799
that you have to work through.

1285
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:24,959
Well, that's exactly what he said

1286
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,719
actually, that maybe it's coming up

1287
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:28,619
for a reason and that that

1288
00:42:28,620 --> 00:42:30,369
is what you need to work through.

1289
00:42:30,370 --> 00:42:32,129
The problem becomes when the

1290
00:42:32,130 --> 00:42:33,589
therapist makes that decision rather

1291
00:42:33,590 --> 00:42:34,590
than the individual.

1292
00:42:36,270 --> 00:42:37,389
Do you think that there's such a

1293
00:42:37,390 --> 00:42:39,669
thing as an ideal playlist to

1294
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:40,209
take shrooms?

1295
00:42:40,210 --> 00:42:40,210
No.

1296
00:42:40,211 --> 00:42:41,639
No, absolutely not.

1297
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,119
Not something that could actually

1298
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,329
work really well for everybody.

1299
00:42:45,330 --> 00:42:47,469
I think the missing pieces here

1300
00:42:47,470 --> 00:42:49,049
in the kind of thought process are

1301
00:42:49,050 --> 00:42:51,129
whether or not you believe

1302
00:42:51,130 --> 00:42:52,569
that this music will make everyone

1303
00:42:52,570 --> 00:42:54,389
feel the same way and not

1304
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:56,349
just you, or

1305
00:42:56,350 --> 00:42:58,249
whether or you acknowledge

1306
00:42:58,250 --> 00:43:00,249
that people have varying reactions

1307
00:43:00,250 --> 00:43:01,269
to music.

1308
00:43:01,270 --> 00:43:02,929
And the reason people don't react to

1309
00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:04,009
the music the same ways is because

1310
00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:05,489
we have this filter of preferences

1311
00:43:05,490 --> 00:43:07,589
and idiosyncratic relationships.

1312
00:43:07,590 --> 00:43:09,329
So I think, you know, one hypothesis

1313
00:43:09,330 --> 00:43:11,809
that I've been working on is that

1314
00:43:11,810 --> 00:43:13,429
psychedelics to some degree remove

1315
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:14,919
that filter.

1316
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,439
They remove the gatekeeper of liking

1317
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,339
so that you may experience the

1318
00:43:19,340 --> 00:43:21,359
music in a more pure or

1319
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,859
less kind of socio-culturally,

1320
00:43:24,860 --> 00:43:27,319
socio-economically biased or

1321
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,739
filtered fashion.

1322
00:43:28,740 --> 00:43:30,359
That's certain to not be true in all

1323
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,899
cases, but I wonder to what degree

1324
00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:34,939
psychedelics, you know, remove the

1325
00:43:34,940 --> 00:43:36,579
filter or like open the filter up a

1326
00:43:36,580 --> 00:43:37,429
little bit.

1327
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:38,789
This reminded me of something that

1328
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:40,329
came up in my conversation with

1329
00:43:40,330 --> 00:43:41,269
Sughra.

1330
00:43:41,270 --> 00:43:42,529
When I spoke with her, she told me

1331
00:43:42,530 --> 00:43:44,309
that she had no affinity for the

1332
00:43:44,310 --> 00:43:46,289
Christian music in the playlist.

1333
00:43:46,290 --> 00:43:47,809
So I found myself wondering if her

1334
00:43:47,810 --> 00:43:49,869
filter had stayed intact during

1335
00:43:49,870 --> 00:43:51,729
and after her session and

1336
00:43:51,730 --> 00:43:53,909
whatever she experienced maybe

1337
00:43:53,910 --> 00:43:55,469
happened despite the music.

1338
00:43:59,990 --> 00:44:01,469
At the end of the talk, Helen Bonny

1339
00:44:01,470 --> 00:44:03,589
gave in 1995,

1340
00:44:03,590 --> 00:44:05,829
she took questions from the audience

1341
00:44:05,830 --> 00:44:07,969
and this one person basically asked

1342
00:44:07,970 --> 00:44:09,969
her if there are any risks to

1343
00:44:09,970 --> 00:44:11,649
using music other than classical

1344
00:44:11,650 --> 00:44:14,329
music in these therapy sessions

1345
00:44:14,330 --> 00:44:15,790
to which Helen answers.

1346
00:44:17,250 --> 00:44:19,189
I used to be pretty adamant about

1347
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:21,009
classical music just because I felt

1348
00:44:21,010 --> 00:44:22,829
comfortable with it and we

1349
00:44:22,830 --> 00:44:24,190
had tested with it.

1350
00:44:25,810 --> 00:44:27,329
I didn't want to hold this too close

1351
00:44:27,330 --> 00:44:29,049
to me because I didn't know all the

1352
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:31,329
possibilities and I still don't.

1353
00:44:31,330 --> 00:44:33,569
I trust you all to try.

1354
00:44:33,570 --> 00:44:35,269
I think that we can all try music

1355
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:38,049
and we learn from that process.

1356
00:44:38,050 --> 00:44:40,029
I want people who are trained and

1357
00:44:40,030 --> 00:44:42,009
able to go and explore

1358
00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:43,909
this and certainly to explore it

1359
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:45,909
musically, classical music

1360
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:47,070
and other musics.

1361
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:50,560
So, try it! See if it works.

1362
00:44:51,660 --> 00:44:53,679
Before her death, Helen Bonny became

1363
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,599
open to the use of other musical

1364
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:56,600
genres.

1365
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,199
And when I spoke with Bill Richards,

1366
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,799
he also seemed willing to make

1367
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,339
bigger changes to the Hopkins

1368
00:45:02,340 --> 00:45:03,739
playlist to better support study

1369
00:45:03,740 --> 00:45:05,719
participants in the future.

1370
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:07,579
After speaking with Bill

1371
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:09,219
and Fred and learning about Helen

1372
00:45:09,220 --> 00:45:11,459
Bonny, I can totally understand

1373
00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:13,139
researchers wanting to play music

1374
00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:14,799
that study participants aren't

1375
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,959
familiar with during sessions.

1376
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,019
I can also totally understand study

1377
00:45:19,020 --> 00:45:21,059
participants wanting to listen to

1378
00:45:21,060 --> 00:45:22,779
music that feels appropriate for

1379
00:45:22,780 --> 00:45:23,979
their sessions.

1380
00:45:23,980 --> 00:45:25,079
And if that means culturally

1381
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,419
appropriate, then so be it.

1382
00:45:27,420 --> 00:45:28,319
Ultimately, I think that we still

1383
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,079
have a lot of unanswered questions

1384
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:31,919
about the impacts

1385
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,619
of music during psychedelic sessions

1386
00:45:33,620 --> 00:45:36,139
and what kind of music is

1387
00:45:36,140 --> 00:45:38,859
best for what kind session.

1388
00:45:38,860 --> 00:45:40,539
And my hope is that we're gonna find

1389
00:45:40,540 --> 00:45:42,399
out a whole lot more in

1390
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:43,880
the coming years and decades.

1391
00:45:55,570 --> 00:45:57,069
Altered States is a production of

1392
00:45:57,070 --> 00:45:58,449
the UC Berkeley Center for the

1393
00:45:58,450 --> 00:46:01,029
Science of Psychedelics and PRX.

1394
00:46:01,030 --> 00:46:02,409
This episode was reported and

1395
00:46:02,410 --> 00:46:04,004
produced by me, Arielle

1396
00:46:04,005 --> 00:46:05,005
Duhaime-Ross.

1397
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:07,749
Adizah Eghan is our senior editor.

1398
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:09,269
Our executive editor is Malia

1399
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:10,249
Wollan.

1400
00:46:10,250 --> 00:46:11,589
Jennie Cataldo is our senior

1401
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:12,749
producer.

1402
00:46:12,750 --> 00:46:15,069
Our researcher is Cassady Rosenblum.

1403
00:46:15,070 --> 00:46:16,889
Our associate producer is Jade Abdul

1404
00:46:16,890 --> 00:46:18,229
Malik.

1405
00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:19,749
Our audio engineers are Terence

1406
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:21,849
Bernardo and Jennie Cataldo.

1407
00:46:21,850 --> 00:46:23,489
Fact-checking by Graham Hacia.

1408
00:46:23,490 --> 00:46:25,029
Special thanks to Michael Pollan

1409
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:26,729
from BCSP.

1410
00:46:26,730 --> 00:46:28,369
Our executive producers are Malia

1411
00:46:28,370 --> 00:46:30,389
Wollan and Jocelyn Gonzalez.

1412
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:31,789
And our project manager is Edwin

1413
00:46:31,790 --> 00:46:33,029
Ochoa.

1414
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:34,949
Our theme music is by Tao Nguyen and

1415
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:36,329
Nate Brenner.

1416
00:46:36,330 --> 00:46:37,330
I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross.

1417
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:40,489
Be sure to subscribe, rate, and

1418
00:46:40,490 --> 00:46:42,189
review Altered States wherever you

1419
00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:43,709
get your podcasts.

1420
00:46:43,710 --> 00:46:45,309
We'll be back next week.

1421
00:46:45,310 --> 00:46:46,929
Most well-known psychedelics remain

1422
00:46:46,930 --> 00:46:48,569
illegal around the world, including

1423
00:46:48,570 --> 00:46:49,949
the United States, where it is a

1424
00:46:49,950 --> 00:46:51,649
criminal offense to manufacture,

1425
00:46:51,650 --> 00:46:53,469
possess, dispense, or supply most

1426
00:46:53,470 --> 00:46:55,949
psychedelics, with few exceptions.

1427
00:46:55,950 --> 00:46:57,829
Altered States does not recommend or

1428
00:46:57,830 --> 00:46:59,989
encourage the use of psychedelics or

1429
00:46:59,990 --> 00:47:01,449
offer instructions in their use.