1 00:00:01,140 --> 00:00:02,739 What if someone you know said they 2 00:00:02,740 --> 00:00:04,739 went to heaven and came 3 00:00:04,740 --> 00:00:05,858 back? 4 00:00:05,859 --> 00:00:07,779 They tell you they were wrapped in 5 00:00:07,780 --> 00:00:09,779 light, love, and met 6 00:00:09,780 --> 00:00:11,619 God. Would you call it a 7 00:00:11,620 --> 00:00:12,659 hallucination? 8 00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:13,459 A dream? 9 00:00:13,460 --> 00:00:15,140 Maybe wishful thinking. 10 00:00:16,980 --> 00:00:18,819 When a neurosurgeon said he 11 00:00:18,820 --> 00:00:20,979 saw the afterlife while in a coma, 12 00:00:20,980 --> 00:00:23,059 he got a lot of pushback. 13 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:24,899 Skeptics said his celestial 14 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:26,499 journey was no miracle. 15 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:28,019 It was a chemical trick of the 16 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:30,179 brain. And these skeptics pointed 17 00:00:30,180 --> 00:00:32,099 to a specific molecule. 18 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:33,379 DMT. 19 00:00:33,380 --> 00:00:35,459 It is known to induce profound, 20 00:00:35,460 --> 00:00:37,299 sometimes frightening psychedelic 21 00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:39,379 experiences, and our own 22 00:00:39,380 --> 00:00:41,619 bodies can make it. 23 00:00:41,620 --> 00:00:44,019 So, today on the show, 24 00:00:44,020 --> 00:00:45,939 reporter Haleema Shah looks at 25 00:00:45,940 --> 00:00:48,419 DMT and death. 26 00:00:48,420 --> 00:00:50,739 I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross, 27 00:00:50,740 --> 00:00:52,340 and this is Altered States. 28 00:00:57,810 --> 00:00:59,649 This summer, I spoke to a 29 00:00:59,650 --> 00:01:01,889 man who saw, embraced, 30 00:01:01,890 --> 00:01:04,169 and no longer fears death. 31 00:01:04,170 --> 00:01:05,290 Death is an adventure. 32 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,279 This is Dr. Eben Alexander. 33 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:10,799 I met him near his home in 34 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,559 Charlottesville, Virginia. 35 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,399 He walks into the room with a long 36 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,399 stride and a head of graying 37 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:17,279 hair. 38 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,759 He says he witnessed the afterlife 39 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,389 and came back. 40 00:01:21,390 --> 00:01:23,229 I'm seventy one years old and 41 00:01:23,230 --> 00:01:25,149 I live my life as an 42 00:01:25,150 --> 00:01:27,069 eternal soul who has a 43 00:01:27,070 --> 00:01:29,149 purpose to bring love and kindness 44 00:01:29,150 --> 00:01:31,069 and compassion and mercy 45 00:01:31,070 --> 00:01:32,489 to this world. 46 00:01:32,490 --> 00:01:34,409 At 71, Eben tells his 47 00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:36,409 story as someone who was lost, 48 00:01:36,410 --> 00:01:37,609 then found. 49 00:01:37,610 --> 00:01:39,448 He was adopted and raised by a 50 00:01:39,449 --> 00:01:41,129 family that attended a Methodist 51 00:01:41,130 --> 00:01:43,368 church. He grew up to be a promising 52 00:01:43,369 --> 00:01:45,529 student, then a skydiver, 53 00:01:45,530 --> 00:01:48,409 then a Harvard-trained neurosurgeon, 54 00:01:48,410 --> 00:01:50,329 who still longed for his birth 55 00:01:50,330 --> 00:01:51,288 family. 56 00:01:51,289 --> 00:01:53,209 As an adult, Eben's belief 57 00:01:53,210 --> 00:01:55,049 in the observable, measurable, 58 00:01:55,050 --> 00:01:57,049 and material deepened. 59 00:01:57,050 --> 00:01:58,889 He stopped praying, he 60 00:01:58,890 --> 00:01:59,769 says. 61 00:01:59,770 --> 00:02:01,689 But in 2008, when he was in his 62 00:02:01,690 --> 00:02:03,529 50s, something happened that 63 00:02:03,530 --> 00:02:05,369 made Eben more than a man of 64 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:06,370 science. 65 00:02:07,350 --> 00:02:09,189 I'm known for having had a 66 00:02:09,190 --> 00:02:11,268 near death experience during a week 67 00:02:11,269 --> 00:02:13,509 long case of severe bacterial 68 00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:15,429 meningitis, a case that 69 00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:17,039 should have killed me. 70 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:18,879 He was hospitalized for over a 71 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,719 week and spent most of it in 72 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:21,849 a coma. 73 00:02:21,850 --> 00:02:23,929 And yet, during that week in coma 74 00:02:23,930 --> 00:02:25,449 I had a profound spiritual 75 00:02:25,450 --> 00:02:26,519 experience. 76 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,279 An experience that he would come to 77 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:29,959 understand as a near-death 78 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,359 experience, or NDE. 79 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,119 They're often characterized by a 80 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,279 tunnel, bright light, and encounters 81 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,119 with spiritual beings. 82 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:39,959 NDEs happen when someone is 83 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:41,799 near death or is pronounced 84 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,959 dead, but survives. 85 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,719 Imagine someone who experiences 86 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:46,999 cardiac arrest. 87 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,919 When their heart stops beating and 88 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:51,319 their body lies still, a bystander 89 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,039 might step in and administer CPR. 90 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,119 The heart restarts, but the 91 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,079 person remains unconscious. 92 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,239 Nearly 20% of cardiac 93 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,399 arrest survivors say that during 94 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,159 that time they experience a 95 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,760 mystical, lucid journey. 96 00:03:08,050 --> 00:03:10,049 What I went through in my NDE, the 97 00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:12,049 ultra reality of it, was far 98 00:03:12,050 --> 00:03:14,049 beyond anything I've ever 99 00:03:14,050 --> 00:03:15,089 experienced in my life. 100 00:03:18,579 --> 00:03:20,178 Eben decided to write about it and 101 00:03:20,179 --> 00:03:22,018 told the world how he, a 102 00:03:22,019 --> 00:03:24,018 scientist, found proof 103 00:03:24,019 --> 00:03:25,379 of heaven. 104 00:03:25,380 --> 00:03:27,219 That was also the title of his New 105 00:03:27,220 --> 00:03:29,059 York Times bestselling book, 106 00:03:29,060 --> 00:03:30,979 and it took the media by storm. 107 00:03:32,290 --> 00:03:33,889 2020 continues. 108 00:03:33,890 --> 00:03:35,959 Is there proof of heaven? 109 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,739 He was on Primetime News. 110 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:38,939 Well, I'd been to heaven. 111 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:40,779 I mean, absolutely the 112 00:03:40,780 --> 00:03:42,779 most remarkable 113 00:03:42,780 --> 00:03:44,619 experience and and for me 114 00:03:44,620 --> 00:03:46,219 the amazing thing was that I had 115 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:48,139 this rich experience while my 116 00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:50,139 brain was completely 117 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:51,980 shut down, soaking in pus. 118 00:03:53,180 --> 00:03:55,569 His trip started off ethereal. 119 00:03:55,570 --> 00:03:57,889 I was rescued by this beautiful, 120 00:03:57,890 --> 00:03:59,729 spinning white light that had 121 00:03:59,730 --> 00:04:01,569 a a melody, indescribably 122 00:04:01,570 --> 00:04:03,329 beautiful melody with it, that 123 00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:05,409 opened up into a bright 124 00:04:05,410 --> 00:04:06,369 valley. 125 00:04:06,370 --> 00:04:08,289 And I had no body awareness, but 126 00:04:08,290 --> 00:04:10,129 I was moving up through it because 127 00:04:10,130 --> 00:04:12,289 I was a speck on a butterfly 128 00:04:12,290 --> 00:04:13,290 wing. 129 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,239 There was someone on the butterfly 130 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:16,439 wing with him. 131 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:17,440 A girl. 132 00:04:19,750 --> 00:04:21,189 I'll never forget the way she was 133 00:04:21,190 --> 00:04:22,469 sitting, the way she was dressed, 134 00:04:22,470 --> 00:04:24,229 the way she looked at me. 135 00:04:24,230 --> 00:04:26,069 And she looked at me with this very 136 00:04:26,070 --> 00:04:27,519 loving smile. 137 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,358 Eben says she was a biological 138 00:04:29,359 --> 00:04:31,519 sister he'd never met. 139 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,839 She guided him through this realm 140 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:35,969 and she gave him a message. 141 00:04:35,970 --> 00:04:37,809 You are deeply loved 142 00:04:37,810 --> 00:04:40,609 and cherished forever. 143 00:04:40,610 --> 00:04:43,619 You have nothing to fear. 144 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:44,620 He heard something. 145 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:48,059 I heard that sound of Om, 146 00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:49,979 that eternal resonance of 147 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:51,660 all of infinity and eternity. 148 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:54,069 During his voyage through the 149 00:04:54,070 --> 00:04:55,908 heavens, Eben was just a 150 00:04:55,909 --> 00:04:57,829 soul in its happy place. 151 00:04:57,830 --> 00:04:59,668 But on his hospital bed, 152 00:04:59,669 --> 00:05:01,749 he was surrounded by family praying 153 00:05:01,750 --> 00:05:03,269 for his return. 154 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:05,108 He couldn't hear them, but 155 00:05:05,109 --> 00:05:07,749 one face and voice got through. 156 00:05:07,750 --> 00:05:10,079 It was his 10-year-old son. 157 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,279 He's telling me, Daddy, you're gonna 158 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:12,718 be okay. Daddy you're gonna be okay. 159 00:05:12,719 --> 00:05:13,839 Daddy, you're gonna be okay. 160 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:15,759 As if it he said it enough, it would 161 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,279 work. I didn't even remember what a 162 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:18,399 father and son were. 163 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:19,679 I didn't recognize him, but there 164 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:20,879 was something about the connection 165 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,959 between us. When I saw him pleading 166 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,639 with me, I knew I had to come back. 167 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:31,179 When Eben returned to what he calls 168 00:05:31,180 --> 00:05:33,179 the earthly realm, something else 169 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:34,139 happened. 170 00:05:34,140 --> 00:05:36,139 He made a full recovery from 171 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:37,419 his coma. 172 00:05:37,420 --> 00:05:39,019 But he'd changed. 173 00:05:39,020 --> 00:05:41,019 He was suddenly a spiritual man 174 00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:43,099 embraced by an all-encompassing 175 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:44,219 deity. 176 00:05:44,220 --> 00:05:46,060 He was talking about Om. 177 00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:50,379 And I guess the reason I used Om 178 00:05:50,380 --> 00:05:52,219 as the identifier for that 179 00:05:52,220 --> 00:05:54,059 God force was to me the 180 00:05:54,060 --> 00:05:55,819 word God when I came back from my 181 00:05:55,820 --> 00:05:57,979 NDE was a puny human 182 00:05:57,980 --> 00:05:59,659 word with a lot of baggage. 183 00:05:59,660 --> 00:06:01,659 And I recognized that, 184 00:06:01,660 --> 00:06:03,259 you know, it was not about this 185 00:06:03,260 --> 00:06:05,259 debate about God, Allah, Brahman, 186 00:06:05,260 --> 00:06:07,019 Vishnu, Jehovah, Yahweh, Great 187 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:08,299 Spirit, but actually an 188 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:09,900 acknowledgement of the commonality. 189 00:06:12,450 --> 00:06:14,369 Eben has a prophetic answer to 190 00:06:14,370 --> 00:06:16,209 a question that's probably as old as 191 00:06:16,210 --> 00:06:17,249 humanity. 192 00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:19,489 What happens when we die? 193 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:21,249 People have answered these questions 194 00:06:21,250 --> 00:06:23,089 by turning to religion, science, and 195 00:06:23,090 --> 00:06:24,529 clairvoyance. 196 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:26,609 I have distinct childhood memories 197 00:06:26,610 --> 00:06:28,769 of a psychic medium with a peroxide 198 00:06:28,770 --> 00:06:29,809 blonde bob. 199 00:06:29,810 --> 00:06:31,649 She had heavily lined eyes 200 00:06:31,650 --> 00:06:33,649 that didn't blink much, and her name 201 00:06:33,650 --> 00:06:35,089 was Sylvia Brown. 202 00:06:35,090 --> 00:06:36,848 She shared the stage with Montel 203 00:06:36,849 --> 00:06:38,549 Williams and Larry King. 204 00:06:38,550 --> 00:06:39,669 You communicate with dead people. 205 00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:39,989 Yes. 206 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:41,029 You do psychic readings. 207 00:06:41,030 --> 00:06:41,509 Yes. 208 00:06:41,510 --> 00:06:43,189 You work with the police on murders 209 00:06:43,190 --> 00:06:44,229 and message. 210 00:06:44,230 --> 00:06:45,429 What do you believe happens when you 211 00:06:45,430 --> 00:06:46,549 die? 212 00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:47,989 You go through the tunnel and you go 213 00:06:47,990 --> 00:06:49,109 to the other side and it's a 214 00:06:49,110 --> 00:06:51,589 beautiful place with actual 215 00:06:51,590 --> 00:06:53,669 buildings and art 216 00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:55,289 museums and 217 00:06:55,290 --> 00:06:56,809 This was the 2000s. 218 00:06:56,810 --> 00:06:58,329 My grandmother was on one of her 219 00:06:58,330 --> 00:07:00,489 visits to the US from Pakistan, 220 00:07:00,490 --> 00:07:02,649 and I remember she once suggested 221 00:07:02,650 --> 00:07:04,489 that my mom ask Sylvia 222 00:07:04,490 --> 00:07:06,329 about my late father. 223 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:08,009 The idea had crossed my roughly 224 00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:09,769 nine-year-old mind too. 225 00:07:09,770 --> 00:07:12,169 And then I quietly wondered, 226 00:07:12,170 --> 00:07:15,209 can Sylvia talk to dead Muslims? 227 00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:17,049 But to believe the unbelievable, 228 00:07:17,050 --> 00:07:18,969 people need the right messenger. 229 00:07:18,970 --> 00:07:21,129 Sylvia spoke the language of daytime 230 00:07:21,130 --> 00:07:23,049 TV and the paranormal. 231 00:07:23,050 --> 00:07:25,129 Eben is fluent in languages 232 00:07:25,130 --> 00:07:27,049 that carry far more weight in 233 00:07:27,050 --> 00:07:29,369 America: Christianity 234 00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:31,099 and science. 235 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:33,179 The quote I often give to explain 236 00:07:33,180 --> 00:07:35,179 exactly the transformation I 237 00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:36,379 had as a scientist. 238 00:07:36,380 --> 00:07:38,299 It's a quote from Werner Heisenberg, 239 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:40,139 who won the Nobel Prize, 240 00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:42,299 and he said that the first gulp 241 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:44,059 from the glass of natural sciences 242 00:07:44,060 --> 00:07:45,819 will lead you towards atheism, but 243 00:07:45,820 --> 00:07:47,339 at the bottom of the glass God is 244 00:07:47,340 --> 00:07:48,699 waiting for you. 245 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:50,379 That quote is contested. 246 00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:52,139 Heisenberg's children don't think 247 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:54,139 their dad said that, but the idea 248 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:56,379 rang true with Eben anyway. 249 00:07:56,380 --> 00:07:58,299 His NDE led him to make 250 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:00,379 the case for an eternal spirit, 251 00:08:00,380 --> 00:08:02,619 or consciousness, or mind. 252 00:08:02,620 --> 00:08:04,939 He argues that consciousness 253 00:08:04,940 --> 00:08:07,019 is not a byproduct of the physical 254 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:09,019 brain. It can exist without 255 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:10,409 our bodies. 256 00:08:10,410 --> 00:08:12,249 Our souls do not cease to exist 257 00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:13,289 when the body dies. 258 00:08:13,290 --> 00:08:15,449 In fact, our souls and our awareness 259 00:08:15,450 --> 00:08:18,009 expands, it becomes much grander. 260 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:19,929 And to me, that 261 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:22,109 is something we can call heaven. 262 00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:23,949 Belief in an afterlife and an 263 00:08:23,950 --> 00:08:26,029 everlasting soul is a heresy 264 00:08:26,030 --> 00:08:28,269 for many scientists, especially 265 00:08:28,270 --> 00:08:30,509 the materialists, who believe 266 00:08:30,510 --> 00:08:32,349 matter is the source of all that 267 00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:34,429 is real, and our material 268 00:08:34,430 --> 00:08:36,589 brains create consciousness. 269 00:08:36,590 --> 00:08:39,119 But Eben doesn't buy that anymore. 270 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:40,798 The brain and mind are obviously m 271 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:42,718 tightly interconnected, but 272 00:08:42,719 --> 00:08:44,879 the mistake we've made in science 273 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,559 in physicalist or materialist 274 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:48,799 science is thinking that only 275 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,879 the physical world exists 276 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,479 and the stuff we can measure in the 277 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:53,679 physical world is the only thing 278 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:55,438 relevant to science, and that is a 279 00:08:55,439 --> 00:08:57,259 tremendous error. 280 00:08:57,260 --> 00:08:59,019 Skeptics rolled their eyes at his 281 00:08:59,020 --> 00:09:01,099 so-called proof of heaven. 282 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:02,779 They questioned how much he knew 283 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:04,539 about death since he was only nearly 284 00:09:04,540 --> 00:09:06,299 dead. They challenged his 285 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:07,579 credibility. 286 00:09:07,580 --> 00:09:09,818 In 2013, an Esquire 287 00:09:09,819 --> 00:09:11,259 reporter found a series of 288 00:09:11,260 --> 00:09:13,979 malpractice cases against Eben. 289 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:16,139 He settled five over an 11 290 00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:17,818 year period. 291 00:09:17,819 --> 00:09:19,818 To Eben's skeptics, this 292 00:09:19,819 --> 00:09:21,899 was a disgraced doctor seeking 293 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:23,659 to reinvent himself. 294 00:09:26,060 --> 00:09:28,859 Scientists don't understand NDEs. 295 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:30,699 The typical medical explanation 296 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:32,619 is that the unconscious person 297 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:35,179 was in a hallucinatory or dreamlike 298 00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:37,019 state. That their brain was on 299 00:09:37,020 --> 00:09:39,179 low power mode, too weak 300 00:09:39,180 --> 00:09:41,099 to respond to stimuli, but 301 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:43,099 active enough to draw on memories 302 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:45,499 and prior beliefs. 303 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:47,499 But Eben says his brain 304 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:49,959 was too damaged to make this up. 305 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,719 These bacteria were devouring my 306 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,239 brain. They'd already eaten all the 307 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,239 glucose in my cerebrospinal 308 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:56,519 fluid, and they were really 309 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:57,959 attacking the brain. 310 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,959 There was no part of the neocortex 311 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:01,879 spared that might have offered up 312 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,799 any kind of dream or hallucination 313 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,039 or phenomenal conscious experience. 314 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,799 Not only that, my brain stem was 315 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,639 badly damaged from the get-go. 316 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,718 If his comatose brain was too weak 317 00:10:12,719 --> 00:10:14,799 to conjure a trip to the afterlife, 318 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,799 his almost comatose brain might 319 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:17,999 not have been. 320 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,919 There were plenty of critiques and 321 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:21,599 theories about Eben's NDE. 322 00:10:25,130 --> 00:10:27,129 Early on when I went public with 323 00:10:27,130 --> 00:10:29,769 this, Sam Harris criticized 324 00:10:29,770 --> 00:10:31,688 my telling of my experience and said 325 00:10:31,689 --> 00:10:33,529 Alexander obviously had a DMT 326 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:35,439 experience, you know, case close. 327 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,279 That theory was probably the most 328 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:38,479 interesting one. 329 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,559 Sam Harris, a neuroscientist 330 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,159 and prominent figure of the New 331 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,079 Atheist Movement, wrote about it on 332 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,039 his blog. 333 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:46,559 But you might know him from his 334 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,959 viral debates with religious people. 335 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,639 If you wake up tomorrow morning 336 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,479 thinking that saying a few Latin 337 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,399 words over your pancakes is 338 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,599 going to turn them into the body of 339 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,759 Elvis Presley, 340 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,280 you have lost your mind. 341 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,079 But if you think more or less the 342 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,759 same thing about a cracker and the 343 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,119 body of Jesus, you're just a 344 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,120 Catholic. 345 00:11:09,410 --> 00:11:11,328 He said, Eben's NDE 346 00:11:11,329 --> 00:11:13,169 bore an uncanny resemblance to 347 00:11:13,170 --> 00:11:15,409 a psychedelic trip with DMT, 348 00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:17,489 or dimethyltryptamine, 349 00:11:17,490 --> 00:11:19,249 the psychoactive ingredient in 350 00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:20,688 ayahuasca. 351 00:11:20,689 --> 00:11:22,529 It induces short, 352 00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:25,009 mystical, and sometimes terrifying 353 00:11:25,010 --> 00:11:26,448 experiences. 354 00:11:26,449 --> 00:11:28,688 And while an Amazonian shaman 355 00:11:28,689 --> 00:11:30,849 might extract it from local plants, 356 00:11:30,850 --> 00:11:32,769 you don't need to go quite so far 357 00:11:32,770 --> 00:11:34,849 to find DMT. 358 00:11:34,850 --> 00:11:37,009 It exists inside our own 359 00:11:37,010 --> 00:11:38,129 bodies. 360 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:40,129 Scientists find these homegrown 361 00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:41,969 chemicals in the blood, 362 00:11:41,970 --> 00:11:44,848 plasma, urine, cerebrospinal 363 00:11:44,849 --> 00:11:46,848 fluid, even the brain and 364 00:11:46,849 --> 00:11:48,448 lungs of mammals. 365 00:11:48,449 --> 00:11:50,369 And Harris's argument builds 366 00:11:50,370 --> 00:11:52,289 off something that's been speculated 367 00:11:52,290 --> 00:11:53,328 before. 368 00:11:53,329 --> 00:11:55,249 Maybe the body produces a 369 00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:57,249 surge of DMT at the 370 00:11:57,250 --> 00:11:58,929 moment of death. 371 00:11:58,930 --> 00:12:01,328 Maybe what Eben experienced 372 00:12:01,329 --> 00:12:03,169 as heaven was actually 373 00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:05,249 him getting high off his 374 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:06,848 own body's supply. 375 00:12:09,970 --> 00:12:11,809 After the break, does a 376 00:12:11,810 --> 00:12:13,809 DMT trip mirror 377 00:12:13,810 --> 00:12:14,810 death. 378 00:12:21,970 --> 00:12:24,448 Over 30 years ago, a psychiatrist 379 00:12:24,449 --> 00:12:26,369 named Rick Strassman ran 380 00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:28,369 a series of DMT studies 381 00:12:28,370 --> 00:12:30,929 at the University of New Mexico. 382 00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:32,929 His work is so foundational 383 00:12:32,930 --> 00:12:34,848 that his name came up in almost 384 00:12:34,849 --> 00:12:36,848 every conversation I had about 385 00:12:36,849 --> 00:12:38,669 death and DMT. 386 00:12:38,670 --> 00:12:40,269 We do know that you know the near 387 00:12:40,270 --> 00:12:42,109 death state is very visual, 388 00:12:42,110 --> 00:12:43,949 very emotional, memories come 389 00:12:43,950 --> 00:12:46,029 back. DMT, you know, has 390 00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:48,249 those kinds of effects as well. 391 00:12:48,250 --> 00:12:50,009 He popularized the speculative 392 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:52,009 theory that DMT might 393 00:12:52,010 --> 00:12:54,009 surge during near death experiences 394 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:55,669 in a seminal book. 395 00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:57,589 The title of you know the DMT book 396 00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:58,710 is, "The Spirit Molecule." 397 00:13:00,310 --> 00:13:02,149 A practicing Zen Buddhist at the 398 00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:04,389 time, Rick theorized that DMT 399 00:13:04,390 --> 00:13:06,549 is produced in the pineal gland, 400 00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:08,549 a pea-sized organ at the center 401 00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:09,749 of the brain. 402 00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:11,749 Borrowing from Buddhist and Hindu 403 00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:13,509 traditions, the gland is often 404 00:13:13,510 --> 00:13:15,429 referred to as the third eye because 405 00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:17,029 of its location. 406 00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:19,188 Rick wanted to find the biological 407 00:13:19,189 --> 00:13:21,749 basis of spiritual experiences. 408 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:23,909 But this was the war on drugs era, 409 00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:26,228 so he ran studies looking at DMT's 410 00:13:26,229 --> 00:13:28,228 impacts in case it had medical 411 00:13:28,229 --> 00:13:29,229 use. 412 00:13:30,459 --> 00:13:32,779 It was just so weird. 413 00:13:32,780 --> 00:13:34,619 There was no one in this country, 414 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:36,539 you know, giving psychedelics 415 00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:38,059 and there was no one in in the world 416 00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:40,139 giving DMT anywhere. 417 00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:41,339 There weren't a bunch of people 418 00:13:41,340 --> 00:13:43,259 lining up for this research, but he 419 00:13:43,260 --> 00:13:45,259 managed to find 60. 420 00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:47,259 The first ones through the door were 421 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:48,429 his friends. 422 00:13:48,430 --> 00:13:50,828 Mostly white collar professionals, 423 00:13:50,829 --> 00:13:52,669 you know, lawyers, physicians, 424 00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:53,869 psychologists. 425 00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:55,549 They were the kinds of folks you 426 00:13:55,550 --> 00:13:57,068 would expect at a you know 427 00:13:57,069 --> 00:13:58,909 psychedelic event in you 428 00:13:58,910 --> 00:14:00,269 know the late nineteen eighties, 429 00:14:00,270 --> 00:14:01,909 early nineteen nineties. 430 00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:03,749 Nearly all the DMT sessions were 431 00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:06,229 held inside an Albuquerque hospital, 432 00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:07,669 a pretty sterile place for a 433 00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:09,429 psychedelic experience. 434 00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:12,389 His team refurbished room 531, 435 00:14:12,390 --> 00:14:14,229 a roughly 15 by 15 436 00:14:14,230 --> 00:14:15,349 foot space. 437 00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:17,188 He hired carpenters to cover 438 00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:19,509 the tubes, pipes, and hoses. 439 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:20,869 The bright white walls were 440 00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:22,229 repainted blue. 441 00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:24,068 The room was outfitted with blue 442 00:14:24,069 --> 00:14:26,229 chairs with a subtle pattern. 443 00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:28,149 Rick was going for soothing, but 444 00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:29,029 not dull. 445 00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:31,188 He got a rocking chair for himself 446 00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:32,708 from where he'd observe study 447 00:14:32,709 --> 00:14:33,989 participants. 448 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:35,828 They would lie on a bed as he 449 00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:38,229 gave them somewhere between .05 450 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:40,469 and .4 milligrams of DMT 451 00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:42,019 intravenously. 452 00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:43,299 I would just you know sit there, you 453 00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:45,219 know, praying, like I hope 454 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:46,659 they're having a good time. 455 00:14:46,660 --> 00:14:48,659 People could have an extraordinarily 456 00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:50,099 wonderful time and you wouldn't know 457 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:51,619 it, or people might be having a 458 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:53,139 horrific hellish time and you 459 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:54,899 wouldn't know it until they you know 460 00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:56,579 began talking with you. 461 00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:58,979 Thirty minutes, maybe forty. 462 00:14:58,980 --> 00:15:00,899 That's about how long participants 463 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:02,419 would be on a trip. 464 00:15:02,420 --> 00:15:04,339 Rick warned them that it started 465 00:15:04,340 --> 00:15:06,259 fast, sometimes before the 466 00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:08,179 injection was even done. 467 00:15:08,180 --> 00:15:10,739 It would often start with a rush, 468 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:12,399 then a sound. 469 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,999 Oftentimes there would be a high 470 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,120 pitched kind of whine like 471 00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:23,270 Then a breakthrough and visuals. 472 00:15:25,118 --> 00:15:26,639 You're almost instantly transported 473 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,318 into this realm of light. 474 00:15:28,319 --> 00:15:30,238 Colorful, morphing, 475 00:15:30,239 --> 00:15:32,159 kaleidoscopic, fractal 476 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,160 like. 477 00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:35,279 Beings. 478 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,279 The majority of the folks 479 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,119 felt an intelligence that 480 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,279 would even materialize into 481 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,279 recognizable things, 482 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,639 which you took all manner of 483 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,399 shape and form. 484 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,879 You know, humanoid, robotic, 485 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,039 insect like, plant like, 486 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:54,799 even sentient furniture. 487 00:15:56,690 --> 00:15:57,690 Sometimes, it was harrowing. 488 00:15:59,340 --> 00:16:01,179 One person felt you 489 00:16:01,180 --> 00:16:03,099 know paranoid and trapped 490 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:04,939 like a jack in the box popped 491 00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:06,939 out and was kind of leering at him. 492 00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:08,779 The Jack in the Box character said, 493 00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:10,779 I've got you now, I've got you now. 494 00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:11,980 And he felt quite scared. 495 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,629 Sometimes it was comforting. 496 00:16:15,630 --> 00:16:17,629 The insights, the ideas which were 497 00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:19,629 you know transmitted 498 00:16:19,630 --> 00:16:21,709 were kind of 499 00:16:21,710 --> 00:16:23,549 trite, like you know, love is all 500 00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:24,550 there is. 501 00:16:25,070 --> 00:16:26,869 Realer than real. 502 00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:28,789 Everyday reality pales 503 00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:30,629 in comparison with the reality 504 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:32,549 value of the DMT 505 00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:33,699 experience. 506 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:35,619 But is the DMT experience the 507 00:16:35,620 --> 00:16:37,859 same as Eben's so called journey 508 00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:38,860 through the afterlife? 509 00:16:43,220 --> 00:16:44,979 There are some obvious overlaps 510 00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:47,139 between an NDE and a DMT 511 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:47,939 trip. 512 00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:49,939 Bright light, realness, 513 00:16:49,940 --> 00:16:52,659 God, even sentient beings. 514 00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:54,739 It actually led Rick to suggest 515 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:56,579 in his book that dying 516 00:16:56,580 --> 00:16:58,579 people should go on a DMT trip 517 00:16:58,580 --> 00:17:00,419 as a kind of dress rehearsal for 518 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:01,219 death. 519 00:17:01,220 --> 00:17:03,929 Why do our bodies produce DMT? 520 00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:05,929 Oh, who knows? 521 00:17:05,930 --> 00:17:07,838 I I mean only God knows. 522 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,598 Some researchers think it helps us 523 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,598 through traumatic moments to 524 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,598 dissociate and go to a safe 525 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:14,398 place. 526 00:17:14,399 --> 00:17:17,279 Some say that it's neuroprotective 527 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,149 to reduce brain damage after injury. 528 00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:21,909 You could speed recovery from a 529 00:17:21,910 --> 00:17:23,749 stroke in experimental 530 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:26,259 animals in the presence of DMT. 531 00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:28,098 There's one problem though. 532 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:29,939 No one has ever proved that 533 00:17:29,940 --> 00:17:31,939 DMT surges in humans 534 00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:34,179 during a stroke, a coma, 535 00:17:34,180 --> 00:17:35,378 or death. 536 00:17:35,379 --> 00:17:37,299 But Rick managed to inspire 537 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:38,979 one scientist who wanted to study 538 00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:39,928 it. 539 00:17:39,929 --> 00:17:41,849 I actually contacted Dr. Strassman 540 00:17:41,850 --> 00:17:43,769 and said, Oh, if you don't have any 541 00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:45,289 data, those would be kind of things 542 00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:47,069 that we could collaborate on. 543 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:49,148 This is Jimo Borjigin. 544 00:17:49,149 --> 00:17:50,829 She's a professor at the University 545 00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:52,829 of Michigan's Medical School, where 546 00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:54,949 she studies the dying brain. 547 00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:56,789 I was born in China and 548 00:17:56,790 --> 00:17:58,949 grew up in the environment 549 00:17:58,950 --> 00:18:01,429 that life after life 550 00:18:01,430 --> 00:18:03,349 or soul or heaven or 551 00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:06,089 hell that's never in my education. 552 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:07,928 She says her brain is averse to 553 00:18:07,929 --> 00:18:09,688 religious ideologies. 554 00:18:09,689 --> 00:18:11,688 She wanted to explore naturally 555 00:18:11,689 --> 00:18:14,809 occurring DMT and NDEs. 556 00:18:14,810 --> 00:18:16,648 So she got Rick to consult on a 557 00:18:16,649 --> 00:18:18,089 study at her lab. 558 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:20,168 It examined 36 rats 559 00:18:20,169 --> 00:18:21,849 whose brains were implanted with 560 00:18:21,850 --> 00:18:24,168 microdialysis probes. 561 00:18:24,169 --> 00:18:26,089 The idea was to measure 562 00:18:26,090 --> 00:18:28,168 in real time whether rats' 563 00:18:28,169 --> 00:18:30,089 brains secreted DMT 564 00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:31,609 after a lethal injection. 565 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,239 In our twenty nineteen paper 566 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,159 published in scientific reports, 567 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,999 which show very 568 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,839 increase of a dimethyltriptamine 569 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,559 DMT in the dying rats. 570 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,799 Her data showed that in a few rats, 571 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,279 DMT levels increased fourfold 572 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,039 or even fivefold. 573 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,040 But in most, It was far less. 574 00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:54,769 Many people thought that was the 575 00:18:54,770 --> 00:18:56,609 evidence to show in the DMT 576 00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:58,129 levels increased in the dying 577 00:18:58,130 --> 00:18:59,130 animals. 578 00:19:00,549 --> 00:19:01,589 But Jimo wasn't quite as convinced by that 579 00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:03,428 data. Because a one to five 580 00:19:03,429 --> 00:19:05,589 fold increase in DMT is small 581 00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:07,269 potatoes when compared to other 582 00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:09,188 chemical surges. 583 00:19:09,189 --> 00:19:10,869 In a study looking at other 584 00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:13,269 neurotransmitters in dying rats, 585 00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:15,829 Jimo saw a quote, stupendous 586 00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:17,198 increase. 587 00:19:17,199 --> 00:19:19,198 That include dopamine, which 588 00:19:19,199 --> 00:19:21,279 increases more than fortyfold, 589 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,198 norepinephrine, which is responsible 590 00:19:23,199 --> 00:19:25,279 for alertness, increased 591 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,119 to more than sixty fold compared to 592 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:28,398 the baseline. 593 00:19:28,399 --> 00:19:30,638 And we see serotonin levels 594 00:19:30,639 --> 00:19:32,718 surges more than two hundredfold 595 00:19:32,719 --> 00:19:33,840 in the dying rat. 596 00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:38,429 In other words, the surge of DMT 597 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:40,349 doesn't even come close to the surge 598 00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:42,189 of other neurotransmitters, 599 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:43,549 which all have pretty remarkable 600 00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:44,279 effects. 601 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,280 Norepinephrines 602 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,319 increase your alertness. 603 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,719 So I think a norepinephrine level 604 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,559 to me perhaps is associated 605 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,639 with the realer than real sensation 606 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,719 that these survivors report. 607 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,479 Dopamine on the other hand is 608 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,239 associated with the feeling good, 609 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,539 you know. 610 00:20:00,540 --> 00:20:01,979 And she thinks it's significant that 611 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:03,898 serotonin is in the mix 612 00:20:03,899 --> 00:20:05,739 because it binds to receptors in 613 00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:07,419 the body that are associated with 614 00:20:07,420 --> 00:20:08,859 hallucinations. 615 00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:11,169 So perhaps seratonin levels 616 00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:13,569 increase in the dying states 617 00:20:13,570 --> 00:20:15,729 are contributed to visual 618 00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:17,889 hallucinations and seeing 619 00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:18,930 light and so forth. 620 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,679 But these theories are all limited 621 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,999 by the lack of human data. 622 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,079 Jimo says a human study 623 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:28,679 would be hard to design. 624 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,519 It would require volunteers who 625 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,279 agree to spending their final 626 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,119 moments being hooked up to an 627 00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:35,959 EEG machine and having 628 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,719 their bodily fluids measured for 629 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,479 neurochemicals. 630 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,719 Moreover, since the volunteer 631 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,799 dies, there's no way to confirm 632 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,639 whether they saw a light, a 633 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,399 deity, or something else when they 634 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,079 experienced a surge of brain 635 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,439 activity. 636 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,439 What we do know is that 637 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,519 NDEs have been reported 638 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,359 for a long time and by 639 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,429 people all over the world. 640 00:20:58,430 --> 00:21:00,109 They're written in the ancient Greek 641 00:21:00,110 --> 00:21:01,389 and Roman literature. 642 00:21:01,390 --> 00:21:02,829 There are accounts from ancient 643 00:21:02,830 --> 00:21:03,709 Egypt. 644 00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:05,309 They're in Polynesia. 645 00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:06,909 They're in Australian Aboriginal 646 00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:07,709 cultures. 647 00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:09,229 They're everywhere. 648 00:21:09,230 --> 00:21:11,149 This is Dr. Bruce Greyson, 649 00:21:11,150 --> 00:21:13,149 a retired psychiatrist. 650 00:21:13,150 --> 00:21:14,989 I called him up because he's also 651 00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:17,309 one of the top scholars of NDEs 652 00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:18,749 at the University of Virginia 653 00:21:18,750 --> 00:21:19,949 Charlottesville. 654 00:21:19,950 --> 00:21:21,949 And yes, you can be a scholar 655 00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:22,829 in that. 656 00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:25,309 Around the 1970s, NDEs 657 00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:26,829 became a sort of academic 658 00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:27,789 discipline. 659 00:21:27,790 --> 00:21:29,629 Along with telepathy, 660 00:21:29,630 --> 00:21:31,709 NDEs fall under the category of 661 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:33,549 parapsychology, 662 00:21:33,550 --> 00:21:35,549 which, depending on who you ask, 663 00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:36,989 is a fringe science or a 664 00:21:36,990 --> 00:21:38,349 pseudoscience. 665 00:21:38,350 --> 00:21:40,189 Bruce says he wasn't primed 666 00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:41,190 to believe in this stuff. 667 00:21:42,110 --> 00:21:43,468 I was raised in a scientific 668 00:21:43,469 --> 00:21:44,269 household. 669 00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:45,708 I went through college and medical 670 00:21:45,709 --> 00:21:47,388 school with that mindset that all 671 00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:48,509 our thoughts and feelings are 672 00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:49,309 produced by the brain. 673 00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:50,639 There's nothing else. 674 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,799 Bruce's interest in NDEs started 675 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,479 with a patient he met while in 676 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:55,279 training. 677 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,439 She said she left her body while 678 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,359 unconscious and was able to 679 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,279 accurately describe events in a 680 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,199 different hospital room. 681 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,039 He couldn't explain it, and 682 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,719 when he learned other people had 683 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,639 similar experiences, he 684 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,639 found himself studying NDEs 685 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,359 for the next 50 years. 686 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:15,279 Today, Bruce and his colleagues 687 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,639 at the University of Virginia 688 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,039 Charlottesville maintain a database 689 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,039 of over a thousand NDE 690 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:21,999 reports. 691 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,679 And the accounts have strikingly 692 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:24,680 similar elements. 693 00:22:25,530 --> 00:22:27,208 Such as a sense of overwhelming 694 00:22:27,209 --> 00:22:29,049 peace and well-being when they are 695 00:22:29,050 --> 00:22:31,208 in fact in dire straits. 696 00:22:31,209 --> 00:22:32,968 They often feel a sense of leaving 697 00:22:32,969 --> 00:22:34,888 their physical bodies and 698 00:22:34,889 --> 00:22:36,809 accurately report what's going on 699 00:22:36,810 --> 00:22:38,249 around the body from an out-of-body 700 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:39,049 perspective. 701 00:22:39,050 --> 00:22:40,888 They may encounter other entities 702 00:22:40,889 --> 00:22:42,408 that they feel are not physically 703 00:22:42,409 --> 00:22:44,009 present. Some of them they may 704 00:22:44,010 --> 00:22:46,168 recognize as deceased individuals 705 00:22:46,169 --> 00:22:48,809 or as what they think are deities. 706 00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:50,329 They often go through a review of 707 00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:52,408 their entire lives, and 708 00:22:52,409 --> 00:22:54,249 at some point they may come 709 00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:56,408 to a decision to return 710 00:22:56,409 --> 00:22:57,689 to their bodies or are sent back. 711 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,399 Bruce developed a 32-point 712 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,039 questionnaire to measure NDEs. 713 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,119 It includes questions that range 714 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,039 from, did you have a feeling of 715 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,799 peace or pleasantness? 716 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,959 To did you see deceased 717 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,439 spirits or religious figures? 718 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,359 It's used in near-death studies 719 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,439 around the world and referred to as 720 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,359 the Greyson Scale, named 721 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:25,199 after Bruce, though he 722 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,719 wishes people would stop calling it 723 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:27,720 that. 724 00:23:28,130 --> 00:23:29,089 I prefer not to call it the Greyson 725 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:30,090 scale. 726 00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:31,119 Really? 727 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:32,638 I have never called it that. 728 00:23:32,639 --> 00:23:34,638 No, I have always called it the NDE 729 00:23:34,639 --> 00:23:35,639 scale. 730 00:23:36,370 --> 00:23:38,289 Most people score 15 out of 731 00:23:38,290 --> 00:23:40,049 32 on the scale. 732 00:23:40,050 --> 00:23:41,888 Eben Alexander, whom Bruce 733 00:23:41,889 --> 00:23:44,929 knows personally, scored 29. 734 00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:47,009 Which is very high in the top 735 00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:48,969 two or three percent. 736 00:23:48,970 --> 00:23:51,049 The deceased relative, the joy 737 00:23:51,050 --> 00:23:53,049 and peace of heaven, the meeting 738 00:23:53,050 --> 00:23:54,249 with Om. 739 00:23:54,250 --> 00:23:56,569 It's all reflective of the classic 740 00:23:56,570 --> 00:23:57,570 NDE. 741 00:23:58,890 --> 00:24:00,729 But the thing that also struck me 742 00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:02,569 about Eben's experience 743 00:24:02,570 --> 00:24:05,609 is that it sounds so American. 744 00:24:05,610 --> 00:24:07,929 Heaven and Om are not American 745 00:24:07,930 --> 00:24:10,249 inventions, but they are everywhere 746 00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:13,209 in this country's spiritual lexicon. 747 00:24:13,210 --> 00:24:15,449 How influenced are NDEs 748 00:24:15,450 --> 00:24:17,289 by where you are and how 749 00:24:17,290 --> 00:24:18,888 you were raised? 750 00:24:18,889 --> 00:24:20,249 Most people who have a near death 751 00:24:20,250 --> 00:24:22,249 experience will say, you know, there 752 00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:23,849 just aren't any words to describe 753 00:24:23,850 --> 00:24:26,089 it. So they have to use metaphors 754 00:24:26,090 --> 00:24:27,529 because there aren't words for it. 755 00:24:27,530 --> 00:24:29,369 And your metaphors come from your 756 00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:30,489 culture. 757 00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:32,249 So for example, people all over the 758 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:34,249 world and going back through time 759 00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:36,329 will talk about a warm, loving being 760 00:24:36,330 --> 00:24:37,449 of light. 761 00:24:37,450 --> 00:24:39,529 And if you're an American, Jewish 762 00:24:39,530 --> 00:24:41,529 or Christian person, you may say 763 00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:43,369 that was God, or you 764 00:24:43,370 --> 00:24:45,129 may say that was Christ. 765 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:51,149 I've read papers about NDEs 766 00:24:51,150 --> 00:24:52,749 on the other side of the world. 767 00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:54,749 And yes, they also feature 768 00:24:54,750 --> 00:24:56,509 the classic elements Bruce 769 00:24:56,510 --> 00:24:57,469 describes. 770 00:24:57,470 --> 00:24:59,069 But there are other things that are 771 00:24:59,070 --> 00:25:01,149 just so culturally specific. 772 00:25:01,150 --> 00:25:03,309 People in a study from Iran reported 773 00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:05,309 meeting Shia imams or meeting 774 00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:07,149 Ayatollah Khomeini. 775 00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:09,229 If they reflect your prior religious 776 00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:11,549 belief or your cultural context, 777 00:25:11,550 --> 00:25:13,469 can that be an indication that 778 00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:15,389 the memories and teachings that are 779 00:25:15,390 --> 00:25:17,309 stored in the brain are playing 780 00:25:17,310 --> 00:25:18,430 a role in the experience? 781 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,479 Well, of course, every experience 782 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,239 that we talk about, no matter where 783 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,839 it's coming from, it has to be 784 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,119 filtered through the brain and 785 00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:27,559 through our language. 786 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,719 The fact that culture determines 787 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,399 how you describe it does not mean 788 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,759 that the culture determines whether 789 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,119 or not you have an experience or 790 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:36,059 what kind you're going to have. 791 00:25:36,060 --> 00:25:37,819 Bruce doesn't put much stock in 792 00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:39,898 theories that suggest DMT 793 00:25:39,899 --> 00:25:41,898 or other brain activity produces 794 00:25:41,899 --> 00:25:43,099 NDEs. 795 00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:45,339 The data is too limited. 796 00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:47,259 Instead, he sees things more like 797 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:49,209 Eben Alexander. 798 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:50,969 So I think I'm open to the idea that 799 00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:52,969 there is consciousness beyond 800 00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:54,809 the physical brain that can survive 801 00:25:54,810 --> 00:25:56,769 death of the physical brain. 802 00:25:56,770 --> 00:25:58,609 But I wondered, what if 803 00:25:58,610 --> 00:26:00,609 someone, somewhere, someday 804 00:26:00,610 --> 00:26:02,769 in the distant future managed 805 00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:04,849 to prove that humans release 806 00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:06,769 a surge of DMT or 807 00:26:06,770 --> 00:26:08,369 some other chemical during near 808 00:26:08,370 --> 00:26:10,049 death experiences? 809 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:11,729 Would that change your mind about 810 00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:12,769 consciousness at all? 811 00:26:12,770 --> 00:26:14,449 Or would it I don't know, would it 812 00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:15,669 just kind of complicate 813 00:26:15,670 --> 00:26:16,789 It would certainly complicate 814 00:26:16,790 --> 00:26:18,629 things. It would make us more likely 815 00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:19,909 to look at what's going on with this 816 00:26:19,910 --> 00:26:21,569 DMT surge. 817 00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:23,489 But it wouldn't negate Bruce's view 818 00:26:23,490 --> 00:26:25,648 of consciousness or the spiritual 819 00:26:25,649 --> 00:26:27,429 nature of NDEs. 820 00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:28,709 I think there are different ways of 821 00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:30,389 looking at any object. 822 00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:32,469 It can be looked through a spiritual 823 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:34,629 lens or a physical lens. 824 00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:36,629 And those are not necessarily 825 00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:38,309 conflicting ways of looking at 826 00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:40,149 things. They're complementary ways. 827 00:26:40,150 --> 00:26:41,749 You know, when you're moved by a 828 00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:43,669 beautiful sunset, that 829 00:26:43,670 --> 00:26:45,109 can be felt as a spiritual 830 00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:46,869 experience. It's also obviously a 831 00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:48,229 physical experience. 832 00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:49,989 Does one negate the other? 833 00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:50,990 Not at all. 834 00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:55,289 Eben Alexander was tired of 835 00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:57,049 people dismissing his experience of 836 00:26:57,050 --> 00:26:59,369 heaven as just naturally occurring 837 00:26:59,370 --> 00:27:00,809 DMT. 838 00:27:00,810 --> 00:27:02,969 In 2018, a decade 839 00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:04,969 after his NDE, he 840 00:27:04,970 --> 00:27:06,729 decided to see the difference for 841 00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:07,730 himself. 842 00:27:09,130 --> 00:27:10,969 I had a colleague who was 843 00:27:10,970 --> 00:27:12,489 very experienced in this kind of 844 00:27:12,490 --> 00:27:15,369 thing, and he facilitated 845 00:27:15,370 --> 00:27:17,689 my ability to smoke 846 00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:20,349 some five-methoxy-DMT 847 00:27:20,350 --> 00:27:21,886 Also known as 5-MEo-DMT. 848 00:27:23,389 --> 00:27:25,309 He wanted to settle the score once 849 00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:27,229 and for all about psychedelics 850 00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:29,468 and near-death experiences. 851 00:27:29,469 --> 00:27:31,309 But it's worth noting here that the 852 00:27:31,310 --> 00:27:33,790 comparison was limited. 853 00:27:35,550 --> 00:27:37,869 5-MEo-DMT and DMT are psychedelic 854 00:27:37,870 --> 00:27:39,708 tryptomines, but they have different 855 00:27:39,709 --> 00:27:41,948 chemical structures and effects. 856 00:27:41,949 --> 00:27:43,869 But Eben forged ahead and took 857 00:27:43,870 --> 00:27:45,388 the drug anyway. 858 00:27:45,389 --> 00:27:47,549 On his trip, he saw fractal 859 00:27:47,550 --> 00:27:49,549 imagery that he described as 860 00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:50,550 tremendous. 861 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:54,219 There was some sense of beings, 862 00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:55,739 you know, of entities that were 863 00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:57,659 there. And I sensed them as friendly 864 00:27:57,660 --> 00:27:59,019 and indestructive and and 865 00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:00,139 knowledgeable. 866 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:01,899 So I didn't feel alone in the 867 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:03,659 process. I felt kind of guided and 868 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:04,779 helped. 869 00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:06,859 But it didn't come close to his NDE. 870 00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:11,229 To compare my DMT experience 871 00:28:11,230 --> 00:28:13,229 with what I had during my near-death 872 00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:15,069 experience is kind of like trying to 873 00:28:15,070 --> 00:28:16,589 look at something through a keyhole. 874 00:28:16,590 --> 00:28:18,589 It was very difficult to discern any 875 00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:19,389 information. 876 00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:21,469 And yet compare that with 877 00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:23,389 the way I described my NDE, 878 00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:26,029 which was a penthouse panoramic 879 00:28:26,030 --> 00:28:27,869 vista to the horizons 880 00:28:27,870 --> 00:28:29,869 of reality about the nature of 881 00:28:29,870 --> 00:28:30,870 all existence. 882 00:28:33,010 --> 00:28:35,009 When it comes to death, studies 883 00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:37,249 about NDEs offer us some threads 884 00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:39,169 to pull on, but they don't come 885 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:41,009 close to answering the big 886 00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:41,969 question. 887 00:28:41,970 --> 00:28:43,626 What happens after? 888 00:28:48,770 --> 00:28:50,769 I was 13 when my grandmother 889 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:52,369 asked that question. 890 00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:54,209 She'd just been widowed, and 891 00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:55,809 like me and millions of other 892 00:28:55,810 --> 00:28:57,889 Muslims, she was taught that death 893 00:28:57,890 --> 00:29:00,449 has a script: an angel, 894 00:29:00,450 --> 00:29:02,769 a waiting period, judgment, 895 00:29:02,770 --> 00:29:05,009 then heaven or hell. 896 00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:07,089 But one night after my grandfather 897 00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:09,009 died, she paused by my mom's 898 00:29:09,010 --> 00:29:11,009 bedroom door and flatly 899 00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:12,849 asked where his soul was 900 00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:13,850 now. 901 00:29:14,530 --> 00:29:17,089 We all fell back on our scripts, 902 00:29:17,090 --> 00:29:18,689 probably so we could put the 903 00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:20,769 unsettling topic and ourselves 904 00:29:20,770 --> 00:29:22,209 to bed. 905 00:29:22,210 --> 00:29:24,209 Maybe that's also why so much of the 906 00:29:24,210 --> 00:29:25,409 public couldn't look away from 907 00:29:25,410 --> 00:29:27,089 Eben's account. 908 00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:29,009 It's another script, 909 00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:31,809 one that's bright and benevolent. 910 00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:33,649 A proof of heaven that quiet 911 00:29:33,650 --> 00:29:36,129 the dread of not knowing. 912 00:29:36,130 --> 00:29:38,289 And in many ways, the DMT 913 00:29:38,290 --> 00:29:40,449 theory offers another script. 914 00:29:40,450 --> 00:29:42,849 If a drug can mimic death, 915 00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:44,689 maybe we can know what we're in 916 00:29:44,690 --> 00:29:45,649 for. 917 00:29:45,650 --> 00:29:47,888 Maybe we can do what Rick suggested 918 00:29:47,889 --> 00:29:49,729 in his DMT book. 919 00:29:49,730 --> 00:29:51,649 Use the psychedelic as a test 920 00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:52,650 run. 921 00:29:56,510 --> 00:29:58,429 I you know ran that by my Zen 922 00:29:58,430 --> 00:29:59,949 Buddhist monk friends. 923 00:29:59,950 --> 00:30:01,309 You know, they said, you know, 924 00:30:01,310 --> 00:30:03,149 number one, what happens if it's 925 00:30:03,150 --> 00:30:04,029 a bad trip? 926 00:30:04,030 --> 00:30:05,949 And number two, what happens if 927 00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:06,989 you're wrong? 928 00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:08,669 You know, what happens if there is 929 00:30:08,670 --> 00:30:11,069 no relationship between being 930 00:30:11,070 --> 00:30:13,149 dead and the DMT 931 00:30:13,150 --> 00:30:14,989 experience? You might be chasing a 932 00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:16,989 wild goose and you know 933 00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:18,669 then you're shocked, you know, when 934 00:30:18,670 --> 00:30:20,589 it isn't anything like a DMT 935 00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:21,839 experience. 936 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,279 A lot has changed since Rick 937 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,198 Strassman wrote his DMT book 938 00:30:25,199 --> 00:30:26,479 25 years ago. 939 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,239 He's in his 70s now. 940 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,319 He's returned to his Jewish roots, 941 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,239 and he's changed his mind about some 942 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:32,958 things. 943 00:30:32,959 --> 00:30:34,958 Would you now ever take DMT 944 00:30:34,959 --> 00:30:35,959 to prepare for death? 945 00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:38,138 Me? 946 00:30:38,139 --> 00:30:39,499 No, no. 947 00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:41,339 I would just get my ducks 948 00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:42,340 in a row. 949 00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:45,909 What does that mean like writing a 950 00:30:45,910 --> 00:30:47,269 will or just, you know? 951 00:30:47,270 --> 00:30:48,709 I mean, you know, you want to 952 00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:50,549 develop your virtues, you wanna be 953 00:30:50,550 --> 00:30:51,829 a good person. 954 00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:53,669 You wanna think, you know, godly 955 00:30:53,670 --> 00:30:55,029 thoughts, you don't wanna have a lot 956 00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:56,309 of regrets. 957 00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:57,829 You wanna be a you know good person 958 00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:58,830 on your deathbed. 959 00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:04,019 My grandmother died during the 960 00:31:04,020 --> 00:31:05,138 pandemic. 961 00:31:05,139 --> 00:31:07,059 I couldn't be with her. 962 00:31:07,060 --> 00:31:08,979 She'd gone back to Pakistan 963 00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:11,539 and was thousands of miles away. 964 00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:13,459 But the nurses said something 965 00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:16,339 that gave my family comfort. 966 00:31:16,340 --> 00:31:18,339 Before her last breath, 967 00:31:18,340 --> 00:31:21,059 my grandmother uttered one word. 968 00:31:21,060 --> 00:31:23,059 Sarfaraz, the name 969 00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:24,979 of her sister who died just months 970 00:31:24,980 --> 00:31:26,019 earlier. 971 00:31:27,780 --> 00:31:29,698 Was her sister there to guide 972 00:31:29,699 --> 00:31:31,619 her tenderly to the other side? 973 00:31:31,620 --> 00:31:34,339 Had death been gentle, inviting 974 00:31:34,340 --> 00:31:35,340 even. 975 00:31:35,780 --> 00:31:37,619 One day, I'll know the 976 00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:39,539 answer, and someone else will be 977 00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:41,299 left behind to wonder where I've 978 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:42,418 gone. 979 00:31:42,419 --> 00:31:44,418 They might believe that death 980 00:31:44,419 --> 00:31:46,339 was a gateway to an afterlife 981 00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:48,178 or to nothingness, but 982 00:31:48,179 --> 00:31:50,819 they won't be able to prove either. 983 00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:52,819 And whether death is ushered 984 00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:54,979 by angels or feel good chemicals, 985 00:31:54,980 --> 00:31:56,898 or both or neither, I think 986 00:31:56,899 --> 00:31:58,579 we're all just hoping it doesn't 987 00:31:58,580 --> 00:31:59,698 matter. 988 00:31:59,699 --> 00:32:01,619 That death is good if we've 989 00:32:01,620 --> 00:32:03,698 been decent people. 990 00:32:03,699 --> 00:32:05,698 Because we have no control over how 991 00:32:05,699 --> 00:32:07,619 we die, just how we live. 992 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,319 This episode was reported and 993 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,999 produced by Haleema Shah. 994 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,359 Altered States is a production of 995 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,878 the UC Berkeley Center for the 996 00:32:27,879 --> 00:32:30,039 Science of Psychedelics and PRX. 997 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,279 Adizah Eghan is our senior editor. 998 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,959 Our executive editor is Malia 999 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,799 Wollan. Jennie Cataldo 1000 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:36,999 is our senior producer. 1001 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,319 Our researcher is Cassady Rosenblum. 1002 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,319 Our associate producer is Jade Abdul 1003 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,199 Malik. 1004 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,799 Our audio engineers are Terence 1005 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,638 Bernardo and Jennie Cataldo. 1006 00:32:45,639 --> 00:32:46,810 Fact-checking by Graham Hacia. 1007 00:32:47,879 --> 00:32:49,878 Special thanks to David Presty. 1008 00:32:49,879 --> 00:32:51,638 Our executive producers are Malia 1009 00:32:51,639 --> 00:32:53,638 Wollan and Jocelyn Gonzales. 1010 00:32:53,639 --> 00:32:54,999 And our project manager is Edwin 1011 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:55,959 Ochoa. 1012 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,878 Our theme music is by Thao Nguyen 1013 00:32:57,879 --> 00:32:58,999 and Nate Brenner. 1014 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,000 I'm your host, Arielle Duhaime-Ross. 1015 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,158 Be sure to subscribe, rate, and 1016 00:33:03,159 --> 00:33:04,999 review Altered States wherever you 1017 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,359 get your podcasts. 1018 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,959 We'll be back next week. 1019 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,799 Most well-known psychedelics remain 1020 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,398 illegal around the world, including 1021 00:33:11,399 --> 00:33:12,759 the United States, where it is a 1022 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,439 criminal offense to manufacture, 1023 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,199 possess, dispense, or supply most 1024 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,439 psychedelics, with few exceptions. 1025 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,439 Altered States does not recommend 1026 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,519 or encourage the use of psychedelics 1027 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,200 or offer instructions in their use.