1 00:00:03,510 --> 00:00:08,220 Area 51 is said to be one of the most secure places in the entire world, 2 00:00:08,610 --> 00:00:13,350 but it's also reasonably accessible being located not far from Las Vegas. 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,720 And it also draws lots of curiosity from conspiracy theorists who 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,990 believe the government stores aliens and their spaceships there. 5 00:00:22,590 --> 00:00:25,920 Put all of that together and it's a recipe for lots of people 6 00:00:26,190 --> 00:00:28,170 trying to sneak in illegally. 7 00:00:28,855 --> 00:00:30,564 What happens when they try? 8 00:00:31,255 --> 00:00:36,035 We're gonna find out right now on Skeptoid. 9 00:00:42,014 --> 00:00:43,704 You are listening to Skeptoid. 10 00:00:43,704 --> 00:00:46,254 I'm Brian Dunning from Skeptoid.com. 11 00:00:47,084 --> 00:00:50,144 The pilots who landed at Area 51. 12 00:00:52,064 --> 00:00:56,114 Welcome to the show that separates fact from fiction, science from pseudoscience, 13 00:00:56,204 --> 00:01:00,734 real history from fake history, and helps us all make better life decisions 14 00:01:00,734 --> 00:01:02,984 by knowing what's real and what's not. 15 00:01:03,674 --> 00:01:08,204 Doing this show for a living, I get exposed to all kinds of weird topics 16 00:01:08,474 --> 00:01:11,054 and to those who believe weird things. 17 00:01:11,714 --> 00:01:16,094 Obvious to all who listen to this show is that that includes UFOs and 18 00:01:16,094 --> 00:01:20,114 UFOlogists and since many of them believe that the U.S. government keeps 19 00:01:20,174 --> 00:01:25,634 aliens and/or their spaceships at the famous classified test facility, 20 00:01:25,784 --> 00:01:32,684 popularly known as Area 51, I tend to get all the weird Area 51 beliefs also. 21 00:01:33,119 --> 00:01:36,779 One of these, which I've heard more times than I can count, is that 22 00:01:36,779 --> 00:01:41,999 anyone attempting to enter Area 51 is immediately killed, and that 23 00:01:41,999 --> 00:01:46,619 unauthorized aircraft approaching too close are immediately shot down. 24 00:01:47,429 --> 00:01:51,629 Today we're gonna point the skeptical eye at pilots who are said to 25 00:01:51,629 --> 00:01:55,919 have landed their planes at the forbidden air base, and find out what 26 00:01:55,919 --> 00:01:58,589 did -- and didn't -- happen to them. 27 00:02:00,809 --> 00:02:04,619 One of the points that authors commonly make about Area 51 is that its biggest 28 00:02:04,619 --> 00:02:07,199 secret is that it was never secret. 29 00:02:07,619 --> 00:02:08,879 And that's completely true. 30 00:02:09,359 --> 00:02:12,659 Lockheed advertised for people to come and work there when the site 31 00:02:12,659 --> 00:02:15,689 was first established in 1955. 32 00:02:16,349 --> 00:02:21,869 Its FAA airport designation, XTA is in the navigation databases. 33 00:02:22,289 --> 00:02:26,489 The entire place has always appeared in full detail in all the public mapping 34 00:02:26,489 --> 00:02:29,189 systems like Google Maps and Apple Maps. 35 00:02:29,914 --> 00:02:33,994 You can even scroll through the historical imagery and see the new facilities 36 00:02:33,994 --> 00:02:38,734 appear at the same time their testing programs began, such as the newest 37 00:02:38,734 --> 00:02:42,514 hangers at the south end of the base, widely believed to be used for the 38 00:02:42,514 --> 00:02:46,384 RQ-180 remotely piloted stealth UAS. 39 00:02:46,834 --> 00:02:51,514 And using websites like FlightRadar24.com, you can even 40 00:02:51,514 --> 00:02:56,074 track the movements of all the planes in the Janet fleet in real time. 41 00:02:56,444 --> 00:03:00,404 Those are the 737s of the chartered airline that the Air Force uses to 42 00:03:00,404 --> 00:03:04,934 move civilian employees and other personnel between Las Vegas and sites 43 00:03:04,934 --> 00:03:10,184 in the Nevada Test and Training Range, such as Area 51, Tonopah Test Range, 44 00:03:10,304 --> 00:03:14,624 Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, Edwards Air Force Base, and others. 45 00:03:15,284 --> 00:03:20,414 If someone is trying to keep Area 51 secret, they're not doing a very good job. 46 00:03:21,524 --> 00:03:26,264 But it's still a classified facility and it is highly secure. 47 00:03:26,714 --> 00:03:30,704 You cannot approach by land or by air without being detected. 48 00:03:31,124 --> 00:03:32,624 You certainly can't go there. 49 00:03:33,134 --> 00:03:35,414 Many have tried, few have succeeded. 50 00:03:35,774 --> 00:03:40,274 The standard case is some yo-yo driving or hiking in, ignoring the fences or 51 00:03:40,274 --> 00:03:42,464 signs thinking they're gonna get inside. 52 00:03:42,974 --> 00:03:43,664 They don't. 53 00:03:45,704 --> 00:03:47,174 This happens pretty regularly. 54 00:03:47,174 --> 00:03:50,639 If you drive toward the place in your car, they know you're coming. 55 00:03:50,819 --> 00:03:54,989 They have multiple types of security systems, including motion detectors, 56 00:03:54,989 --> 00:03:58,919 buried next to all the approach roads, and even inside the perimeter. 57 00:03:59,279 --> 00:04:02,729 These are sensitive enough to detect hikers as well as vehicles. 58 00:04:03,209 --> 00:04:07,649 People have found these sensors and posted videos to YouTube, so we 59 00:04:07,649 --> 00:04:09,149 know these systems are out there. 60 00:04:10,979 --> 00:04:16,379 They alert a security force popularly known as the "camo dudes." They 61 00:04:16,379 --> 00:04:19,889 work for a private security company contracted by the Air Force. 62 00:04:20,309 --> 00:04:24,629 They are quick to arrive in either white pickups or Jeep Cherokees and 63 00:04:24,629 --> 00:04:26,849 quick to apprehend anyone they catch. 64 00:04:27,479 --> 00:04:30,359 Sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but such 65 00:04:30,359 --> 00:04:33,749 trespassers are never just killed. 66 00:04:34,919 --> 00:04:37,289 They are instead detained until the Lincoln County 67 00:04:37,289 --> 00:04:38,609 Sheriff's deputy can get there. 68 00:04:39,629 --> 00:04:43,919 They're typically cited for trespassing on a military facility, which carries 69 00:04:43,919 --> 00:04:48,299 a hefty fine and possible imprisonment depending on the circumstances. 70 00:04:48,929 --> 00:04:50,159 You can see this for yourself. 71 00:04:50,189 --> 00:04:54,419 Body cam footage from the deputies has been posted to YouTube also. 72 00:04:56,129 --> 00:04:59,189 But today we want to focus on the more extraordinary cases. 73 00:04:59,489 --> 00:05:04,139 People who have flown in and landed their planes either on the runways 74 00:05:04,139 --> 00:05:06,359 or on dry Groom Lake itself. 75 00:05:07,109 --> 00:05:11,579 Now it's fair to start off by pointing out that this hasn't happened nearly 76 00:05:11,579 --> 00:05:13,229 as often as some people think. 77 00:05:13,919 --> 00:05:15,599 Everyone has a story they've heard. 78 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,439 Even military pilots know someone who knows someone who did it. 79 00:05:20,039 --> 00:05:23,969 Several times a year, Nellis Air Force Base holds a two week combat training 80 00:05:23,969 --> 00:05:29,129 exercise called Red Flag with pilots from all the American forces and usually 81 00:05:29,129 --> 00:05:31,049 from other countries too, participating. 82 00:05:31,799 --> 00:05:35,319 They all have stories about Red Flag pilots who tried it. 83 00:05:36,119 --> 00:05:38,609 The truth is much less facetious. 84 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:44,219 Colloquially, they call it "The Box" -- officially, it's 85 00:05:44,249 --> 00:05:46,919 Restricted Area 4808 North. 86 00:05:47,729 --> 00:05:52,859 Violating The Box means severe disciplinary action and probable 87 00:05:52,859 --> 00:05:54,599 loss of flight privileges. 88 00:05:54,989 --> 00:05:58,649 It's a career move that few fighter pilots would be willing 89 00:05:58,649 --> 00:06:01,229 to risk if it's ever happened. 90 00:06:01,529 --> 00:06:04,619 No accounts have been published due to operational security. 91 00:06:05,654 --> 00:06:08,744 If they'd actually landed, we'd probably know about it. 92 00:06:09,134 --> 00:06:12,704 As a number of former employees from Area 51 have written books 93 00:06:13,004 --> 00:06:15,014 that detail a few such accounts. 94 00:06:15,884 --> 00:06:22,394 The only accounts about Red Flag guys are informal anecdotes, usually hearsay 95 00:06:22,569 --> 00:06:24,869 and never giving names or dates. 96 00:06:27,309 --> 00:06:31,214 So now let's have some fun and check out the few times this 97 00:06:31,214 --> 00:06:32,969 is confirmed to have happened. 98 00:06:35,369 --> 00:06:38,999 1957: Edward K. Current, Jr. 99 00:06:39,989 --> 00:06:44,039 This honor of the very first known incursion, fell onto this poor 100 00:06:44,039 --> 00:06:47,429 guy who was doing a cross country checkout to get a private pilot's 101 00:06:47,429 --> 00:06:51,989 license, and coincidentally was an employee for Douglas Aircraft. 102 00:06:52,709 --> 00:06:58,589 Lost and low on fuel, he did as he'd been taught and landed safely at what looked 103 00:06:58,594 --> 00:07:00,754 like an abandoned airfield on a dry lake. 104 00:07:01,799 --> 00:07:05,429 He thought he was the luckiest guy ever until a few minutes later when he 105 00:07:05,429 --> 00:07:07,229 had all kinds of guns pointed at him. 106 00:07:09,209 --> 00:07:12,509 A while later, he was released, given fuel, and took off. 107 00:07:12,809 --> 00:07:17,819 But fate was not his friend that day as shortly thereafter, his engine gave out 108 00:07:17,819 --> 00:07:19,859 and he crashed near the town of Mercury. 109 00:07:21,104 --> 00:07:25,979 The incident prompted Groom Lake, most of it anyway, to be added to the Nevada 110 00:07:25,979 --> 00:07:30,604 Test Site, removing public access, and finally giving it some kind of security. 111 00:07:33,089 --> 00:07:36,779 1959: Three NASA Employees 112 00:07:38,069 --> 00:07:42,419 Groom Lake had been identified by NASA as an acceptable emergency landing 113 00:07:42,419 --> 00:07:45,239 site for their new X-15 space plane. 114 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:50,189 With permission they had tested the surface and found it strong enough 115 00:07:50,189 --> 00:07:52,719 to safely handle the X-15's weight. 116 00:07:53,809 --> 00:07:58,319 But if a flight was to be conducted following a rainstorm, the emergency 117 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:00,749 landing sites would have to be retested. 118 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:06,569 One time, X-15 pilot Forrest Petersen and two other NASA guys did so. 119 00:08:06,899 --> 00:08:11,519 And since the part of Groom Lake they were interested in was outside of that 120 00:08:11,519 --> 00:08:16,029 newly established secure boundary, they didn't bother asking for clearance. 121 00:08:16,329 --> 00:08:21,489 They just came right in and landed their big old Douglas R4D, a plane heavy 122 00:08:21,489 --> 00:08:24,039 enough to simulate the weight of an X-15. 123 00:08:24,969 --> 00:08:28,389 They taxied around looking at the depth of their tire tracks to 124 00:08:28,389 --> 00:08:30,129 determine the site's suitability. 125 00:08:31,509 --> 00:08:35,049 Before long, they noticed a group of Jeeps speeding out toward them. 126 00:08:35,699 --> 00:08:40,229 Deeming discretion to be the better part of valor, they booked it and took off 127 00:08:40,229 --> 00:08:44,159 to get the heck out of there as fast as they could, successfully getting airborne 128 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:45,779 before the Jeeps could reach them. 129 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,669 Once they returned to their own base at Edwards, they got yelled at, but 130 00:08:50,789 --> 00:08:53,129 suffered no other disciplinary action. 131 00:08:55,109 --> 00:08:58,949 You might wonder why there would be animosity between the Air Force and NASA. 132 00:08:59,609 --> 00:09:02,309 Well, that's an enormous can of worms that we're not gonna 133 00:09:02,309 --> 00:09:06,209 open today and which reached its climax with the Apollo program. 134 00:09:06,509 --> 00:09:12,209 Suffice it to say that cameras on an X-15 were perfectly capable of photographing 135 00:09:12,359 --> 00:09:19,949 U-2s and A-12s at Area 51 and on more than one occasion, inadvertently did. 136 00:09:22,829 --> 00:09:25,739 1960: Robert Wilcox 137 00:09:26,744 --> 00:09:31,454 In this case, he didn't actually land there, but did the next closest thing. 138 00:09:31,844 --> 00:09:36,164 This pilot was training in an F-100C Super Saber when his plane 139 00:09:36,164 --> 00:09:38,444 suffered a major hydraulic failure. 140 00:09:38,984 --> 00:09:43,244 The airstrip at Area 51 being the only one in sight, he aimed the plane 141 00:09:43,244 --> 00:09:47,384 toward it, but quickly realized he wouldn't make it and punched out. 142 00:09:48,044 --> 00:09:51,884 The plane crashed on one side of Groom Lake and he parachuted 143 00:09:51,884 --> 00:09:53,564 into the hills on the other side. 144 00:09:54,194 --> 00:09:58,934 When base personnel reached him, they saw he was uninjured, and since he was far 145 00:09:58,934 --> 00:10:03,224 enough away that he hadn't seen anything classified, they drove him out onto the 146 00:10:03,224 --> 00:10:08,054 lake bed where a rescue helicopter from Nellis was able to land and pick him up. 147 00:10:09,614 --> 00:10:14,324 Following this incident, R-4808 was established, giving the 148 00:10:14,324 --> 00:10:18,644 base further protection from military pilots getting too close. 149 00:10:20,774 --> 00:10:25,124 1963: Anthony Bendell and Wingman 150 00:10:25,934 --> 00:10:30,224 A British RAF Officer, Anthony Bendell, was leading a flight of 151 00:10:30,224 --> 00:10:34,514 three F-105 Thunder Chiefs as part of the officer exchange program. 152 00:10:35,459 --> 00:10:39,719 One of the other planes developed an oil pressure problem, so Bendell ordered 153 00:10:39,719 --> 00:10:44,339 the third plane back to Nellis while he stayed with the problem plane and 154 00:10:44,339 --> 00:10:48,659 watched him safely make an emergency landing on a runway at Area 51. 155 00:10:49,439 --> 00:10:53,279 But before Bendell could head back to Nellis himself, a pair of 156 00:10:53,279 --> 00:10:55,499 F-101 Voodoo fighters appeared. 157 00:10:56,129 --> 00:11:00,899 Upon hearing his British accent over the radio and determining he clearly wasn't 158 00:11:00,899 --> 00:11:03,389 American, they forced him to land as well. 159 00:11:04,394 --> 00:11:09,254 As he taxied, they ordered him not to look to his left, so of course 160 00:11:09,254 --> 00:11:15,204 he instinctively looked to his left and saw a classified A-12 spy plane. 161 00:11:16,949 --> 00:11:20,399 Both pilots were separately and extensively interrogated. 162 00:11:20,909 --> 00:11:25,409 Eventually,  Bendell was allowed to return in his F-105 to Nellis 163 00:11:25,829 --> 00:11:29,759 while the student pilot was placed on the next Janet back to Las Vegas. 164 00:11:30,359 --> 00:11:34,079 As they both acted properly during a legitimate emergency, 165 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:35,969 neither was disciplined. 166 00:11:38,099 --> 00:11:41,339 1960s: Two civilian incidents 167 00:11:42,569 --> 00:11:47,144 These two cases are known only from remarks made by A-12 pilot Dennis 168 00:11:47,144 --> 00:11:52,139 Sullivan, who was stationed at Area 51 when they happened, during a public talk 169 00:11:52,229 --> 00:11:58,199 he gave at the National Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas in October, 2005. 170 00:11:59,219 --> 00:12:04,499 Unfortunately, he gave no dates but given his position, I'm willing to 171 00:12:04,499 --> 00:12:08,849 call them likely true, while also being careful to remember that 172 00:12:08,849 --> 00:12:11,159 pilots love to tell tall tales. 173 00:12:12,884 --> 00:12:17,774 One time a guy was taking his girlfriend for a flight out of Las Vegas, but became 174 00:12:17,774 --> 00:12:22,844 lost and ran low on fuel and landed when he saw runway lights at Area 51. 175 00:12:23,684 --> 00:12:27,404 When security guards detained them and questioned them, the girlfriend 176 00:12:27,404 --> 00:12:30,589 began beating the pilot with her purse for being such an idiot. 177 00:12:32,714 --> 00:12:36,284 Another time a student pilot who was doing a solo cross-country checkout 178 00:12:36,284 --> 00:12:41,624 flight got lost and landed there for the same reason, and it turned out 179 00:12:41,624 --> 00:12:43,514 he was a former Air Force navigator. 180 00:12:44,054 --> 00:12:48,854 His story was verified and his plane was refueled, and he was sent on his way. 181 00:12:50,894 --> 00:12:54,404 1977: A Civilian Beech Bonanza 182 00:12:56,009 --> 00:13:00,089 During a sensitive ground test of the HAVE BLUE prototype of the 183 00:13:00,089 --> 00:13:05,369 F-117 stealth fighter, the weather came in and cloud cover dipped low. 184 00:13:05,849 --> 00:13:09,659 To everyone's surprise, a Civilian Beech Bonanza appeared out of 185 00:13:09,659 --> 00:13:14,099 nowhere and directly overflew the base and the prototype. 186 00:13:14,909 --> 00:13:17,944 They had it tracked and the pilot was later found and debriefed. 187 00:13:18,734 --> 00:13:22,274 But the reason he'd gotten away with it was the low cloud cover. 188 00:13:22,724 --> 00:13:26,084 He hadn't intended any intrusion, but the ceiling pushed him lower 189 00:13:26,084 --> 00:13:31,094 and lower until he was below radar coverage, so they never saw him coming. 190 00:13:31,934 --> 00:13:37,004 A Lockheed Skunk Works engineer on hand quipped, "I don't know why we are trying 191 00:13:37,004 --> 00:13:41,654 so hard to make a stealth airplane; why don't we just build a bunch of those?" 192 00:13:43,814 --> 00:13:48,314 2016: Navy P-8A Poseidon crew 193 00:13:49,154 --> 00:13:53,114 During a Red Flag exercise, this Navy patrol and reconnaissance 194 00:13:53,114 --> 00:13:58,104 aircraft based on the Boeing 737 was providing battlespace-wide 195 00:13:58,124 --> 00:14:00,044 information on airborne threats. 196 00:14:00,854 --> 00:14:06,014 But at some point, either accidentally or otherwise, its electronic surveillance 197 00:14:06,014 --> 00:14:12,014 gear got pointed at Area 51, even though the plane itself never went into The Box. 198 00:14:12,584 --> 00:14:17,024 Data was seized and reprimands were issued, but due to the complexity of the 199 00:14:17,024 --> 00:14:21,134 environment, it could not be demonstrated that the crew did anything intentionally. 200 00:14:23,564 --> 00:14:28,784 2023: 70-year-old Mooney M20F pilot 201 00:14:30,044 --> 00:14:34,304 One day someone on Reddit posted a screenshot of what he happened 202 00:14:34,364 --> 00:14:38,654 to be watching on the FlightAware flight tracking website: a 203 00:14:38,654 --> 00:14:48,164 1967 Mooney private plane, tail number N3770N overflying Area 51. 204 00:14:49,094 --> 00:14:53,204 He later landed in Concord, California where the tower advised 205 00:14:53,204 --> 00:14:57,434 him that he'd been instructed to telephone Nellis Air Force Base. 206 00:14:58,994 --> 00:15:03,464 This soon made it from Reddit to the Daily Caller news website, which 207 00:15:03,464 --> 00:15:07,814 posted a statement from Nellis that included "Any attempt to illegally 208 00:15:07,814 --> 00:15:10,964 access the area is highly discouraged." 209 00:15:12,734 --> 00:15:16,544 The pilot's name was not published, though the plane's owner is easy to 210 00:15:16,544 --> 00:15:21,014 look up by its tail number and two names were bandied about on Reddit. 211 00:15:21,719 --> 00:15:26,309 As my business is something other than repeating internet rumors about suspected 212 00:15:26,309 --> 00:15:31,079 criminal actions, I will refrain from giving those here -- though since the 213 00:15:31,079 --> 00:15:37,289 Daily Caller reported he was 70 years old as of that date in 2023, I leave it to 214 00:15:37,289 --> 00:15:39,839 the curious to investigate on their own. 215 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:43,139 And that's it. 216 00:15:43,649 --> 00:15:48,659 No records of anyone getting shot down or extrajudicially executed. 217 00:15:49,379 --> 00:15:52,769 Of course, I can already tell that some of the feedback I get on this episode 218 00:15:52,769 --> 00:15:56,729 will be that of course there are no records of the shootdowns and killings 219 00:15:56,999 --> 00:15:59,009 because the military would've erased them. 220 00:16:00,299 --> 00:16:04,499 And thus, once again, to the conspiratorial mind, a lack of 221 00:16:04,499 --> 00:16:07,259 evidence is proof of the conspiracy. 222 00:16:07,889 --> 00:16:13,019 As science communicators, we just can't win -- just as Area 51 223 00:16:13,019 --> 00:16:17,834 will always be plagued by yahoos and weirdos trying to sneak in. 224 00:16:20,099 --> 00:16:24,599 Special thanks to Peter W. Merlin, author of this episode's primary source, 225 00:16:25,109 --> 00:16:28,229 the exceptional 2023 magnum opus: 226 00:16:28,619 --> 00:16:31,769 Dreamland: The Secret History of Area 51 227 00:16:32,429 --> 00:16:35,399 and who provided substantial additional information on very 228 00:16:35,399 --> 00:16:39,029 short notice and otherwise bent over backwards to be helpful. 229 00:16:39,629 --> 00:16:40,319 Thanks Peter. 230 00:16:42,134 --> 00:16:46,304 We continue with a ground intrusion case said to be the farthest anyone's 231 00:16:46,304 --> 00:16:51,554 ever gotten into Area 51 in the ad-free and extended premium feed. 232 00:16:52,034 --> 00:17:02,794 To access it, become a supporter at skeptoid.com/gopremium 233 00:17:02,819 --> 00:17:08,259 A great big Skeptoid shoutout to our premium supporters, including Kareman; 234 00:17:08,279 --> 00:17:13,679 Joshua Austin, DDS of San Antonio, Texas; Derek, your friendly neighborhood, 235 00:17:13,679 --> 00:17:16,829 Satanist; and Mahrcel-Jahn Kreygsman. 236 00:17:17,434 --> 00:17:19,709 We've got lots of live events coming up. 237 00:17:19,979 --> 00:17:22,809 There might still be a couple tickets available for our Skeptoid 238 00:17:22,829 --> 00:17:25,169 Adventure to Death Valley in October. 239 00:17:25,619 --> 00:17:27,059 Come to the website to find out. 240 00:17:27,684 --> 00:17:30,504 I am also speaking at a couple of Skepticamps around the country, 241 00:17:30,744 --> 00:17:34,524 and of course, we have our monthly Nerd Nights here in Bend, Oregon. 242 00:17:35,034 --> 00:17:40,534 You can see the whole schedule and get details at skeptoid.com/events 243 00:17:40,554 --> 00:17:46,349 or to book me for your own event, come to skeptoid.com/speaking 244 00:17:46,849 --> 00:17:50,329 Come join in the discussion of this episode in our private Discord channel. 245 00:17:50,689 --> 00:17:55,409 Just visit skeptoid.com/discord 246 00:17:55,409 --> 00:17:57,769 Skeptoid is a production of Skeptoid Media. 247 00:17:57,949 --> 00:18:01,709 Director of Operations and Tinfoil Hat Counter is Kathy Rightmire. 248 00:18:02,299 --> 00:18:05,449 Marketing Guru and Illuminati Liaison is Jake Young. 249 00:18:05,699 --> 00:18:09,689 Production Management and All Things Audio by Will McCandless. 250 00:18:09,959 --> 00:18:12,089 Music is by Lee Sanders. 251 00:18:12,419 --> 00:18:15,149 Researched and written by me, Brian Dunning. 252 00:18:15,719 --> 00:18:19,499 Listen to Skeptoid for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 253 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:21,809 Amazon Music, or iHeart. 254 00:18:24,899 --> 00:18:28,019 You are listening to Skeptoid, a listener-supported program. 255 00:18:28,469 --> 00:18:31,419 I'm Brian Dunning from Skeptoid.com.