1 00:00:03,540 --> 00:00:08,010 Sharon Hill: Around 2020 stories emerged on social media of a cryptid that 2 00:00:08,010 --> 00:00:12,780 was being sighted in the Appalachian forests of the Eastern U.S. Witnesses 3 00:00:12,780 --> 00:00:17,640 say they thought it was a deer at first until it revealed itself as acting or 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,010 looking like no deer they had ever seen. 5 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:26,730 The contemporary legend of the "Not-Deer" was born and began migrating online. 6 00:00:27,660 --> 00:00:31,529 That's coming up right now on Skeptoid. 7 00:00:37,595 --> 00:00:39,075 You are listening to Skeptoid. 8 00:00:39,095 --> 00:00:43,305 I'm Sharon Hill, guest hosting for Brian Dunning from Skeptoid.com. 9 00:00:44,285 --> 00:00:47,255 The Not-Deer and Weird Appalachian Lore. 10 00:00:48,815 --> 00:00:52,925 This episode was sponsored by Jay and Carrie from Middleton, Wisconsin. 11 00:00:53,450 --> 00:01:00,560 To sponsor your own episode, come to skeptoid.com/sponsor. 12 00:01:00,830 --> 00:01:05,450 Welcome to the show that separates fact from fiction, science from pseudoscience, 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,980 real history from fake history, and helps us all make better life decisions 14 00:01:10,250 --> 00:01:12,440 by knowing what's real and what's not. 15 00:01:13,985 --> 00:01:17,585 The white-tailed deer of North, Central, and South America is 16 00:01:17,585 --> 00:01:19,145 a very common large mammal. 17 00:01:19,505 --> 00:01:24,035 It's so populous that it becomes a nuisance for farmers and gardeners, but 18 00:01:24,035 --> 00:01:26,255 also a well-known hazard for drivers. 19 00:01:26,645 --> 00:01:30,545 In other words, everyone knows what this deer species looks like and 20 00:01:30,545 --> 00:01:32,975 generally has an idea of how it behaves. 21 00:01:33,905 --> 00:01:38,345 Around 2019, descriptions of deer that did not behave as expected, 22 00:01:38,375 --> 00:01:39,905 began to spread on the internet. 23 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,840 Witnesses, particularly in the Eastern U.S., reported encounters 24 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,350 with animals that they initially observed as just another deer, 25 00:01:48,770 --> 00:01:52,915 when suddenly the animals exhibited uncanny and bizarre characteristics. 26 00:01:54,140 --> 00:01:58,280 These deer were seen making jerky movements or they had out of proportion 27 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,980 body parts, particularly the head or legs. 28 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,520 Some were observed to be walking on their hind legs as 29 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,110 if their front legs were arms. 30 00:02:06,590 --> 00:02:09,080 Their skin, eyes, and teeth were wrong. 31 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,700 People reported that the deer made clicking noises or other unnatural sounds. 32 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,170 These encounters unnerved the witnesses, and this phenomenon acquired the 33 00:02:18,170 --> 00:02:22,760 name, the "Not-Deer." These stories expanded and spread on social media. 34 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,850 The Not-Deer appeared on the Tumblr web platform in 2019 and eventually became 35 00:02:28,850 --> 00:02:31,130 a popular subject on TikTok and Reddit. 36 00:02:32,510 --> 00:02:36,740 As the story spread, the Not-Deer quickly gained a spooky reputation 37 00:02:36,950 --> 00:02:38,780 as something menacing and evil. 38 00:02:39,650 --> 00:02:42,560 The Not-Deer stories were situated primarily from the 39 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,390 Appalachian region of the U.S. 40 00:02:44,750 --> 00:02:48,650 Eventually, the stories morphed and the Not-Deer was described as a 41 00:02:48,650 --> 00:02:50,810 malevolent spirit in the form of a deer. 42 00:02:51,515 --> 00:02:55,595 This framing was certainly influenced by the increasingly popular thematic 43 00:02:55,715 --> 00:02:58,475 and media genre of "weird Appalachia." 44 00:02:59,795 --> 00:03:04,925 Before I unpack that concept, as a lifelong Pennsylvanian and geologist, I 45 00:03:04,925 --> 00:03:09,395 have almost exclusively heard the name of this U.S. region pronounced as Appalachia 46 00:03:09,905 --> 00:03:11,795 and the mountains as the Appalachians. 47 00:03:12,155 --> 00:03:16,115 However, the pronunciation varies regionally with the states south 48 00:03:16,115 --> 00:03:19,715 of Pennsylvania border using Appalachia and the Appalachians. 49 00:03:20,795 --> 00:03:25,115 You will find content expressing a strong preference for using the latter 50 00:03:25,175 --> 00:03:28,115 Appalachia as the only right way. 51 00:03:28,685 --> 00:03:31,115 Correlated with that is the perception that the heart of 52 00:03:31,115 --> 00:03:34,625 Appalachia is West Virginia and Eastern Kentucky and Tennessee. 53 00:03:35,375 --> 00:03:39,425 Because many of the video and audio content about the Not-Deer and other weird 54 00:03:39,425 --> 00:03:44,405 phenomenon is focused on these areas, I will use the preferred pronunciation. 55 00:03:46,265 --> 00:03:49,835 Appalachia is the mountain and valley region inland from the east coast 56 00:03:49,835 --> 00:03:54,305 of North America that stretches some 2,000 miles from Alabama to 57 00:03:54,305 --> 00:03:56,135 the Canadian maritime provinces. 58 00:03:56,675 --> 00:03:59,105 It is geologically and culturally complex. 59 00:04:00,860 --> 00:04:04,400 Formed from multiple mountain-building events beginning about 1 billion 60 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:09,050 years ago and ending about 300 million years ago, tectonic 61 00:04:09,050 --> 00:04:11,150 events created ridges and valleys. 62 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,960 The region includes well-known mountainous areas, such as the Great 63 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,115 Smoky Mountains, Blue Ridge Mountains, Green Mountains, White Mountains, 64 00:04:19,585 --> 00:04:22,200 Catskills, Poconos, and the Alleghenies. 65 00:04:23,750 --> 00:04:27,375 The location of the mountain chain makes it a natural route for migrating animals. 66 00:04:28,235 --> 00:04:30,425 Several large river valleys are sourced there. 67 00:04:30,905 --> 00:04:34,775 The land supports huge tracks of deciduous and coniferous forest land. 68 00:04:35,135 --> 00:04:37,475 It was the homeland of many indigenous tribes. 69 00:04:38,525 --> 00:04:41,825 The isolation of the mountains and valleys led the later immigrant 70 00:04:41,825 --> 00:04:46,115 settler populations to develop their own unique folk culture and they were 71 00:04:46,290 --> 00:04:50,495 derogatorily known as "hillbillies," who were often stereotyped as 72 00:04:50,495 --> 00:04:52,085 backwards and superstitious. 73 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:58,850 In her 2024 book, The Age of Deer, Erika Howsare expands on the long 74 00:04:58,850 --> 00:05:00,570 history between people and deer. 75 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:05,090 The deer are all around us, yet usually at a middle distance away. 76 00:05:05,690 --> 00:05:09,800 They are familiar, yet often hidden, surprising us by their appearance. 77 00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:15,260 Deer are too large to ignore, so we will make a point to state that they are there. 78 00:05:15,860 --> 00:05:18,860 Howsare also points out something particular about the deer. 79 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,430 She says, there's something about how a deer looks back at us. 80 00:05:22,910 --> 00:05:27,500 While many animals do not acknowledge people except to flee, the deer sees 81 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:29,630 us, observes us before moving on. 82 00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:34,070 They represent nature, but is beings that are also aware of us. 83 00:05:35,915 --> 00:05:39,095 Complex stories and lore about the deer exist as well. 84 00:05:39,545 --> 00:05:43,895 In the Americas, the indigenous peoples were reliant on deer for life needs 85 00:05:44,375 --> 00:05:48,275 and myths and legends include them as a regular part of life and death. 86 00:05:49,295 --> 00:05:54,845 Some unsourced online media claim the idea of the Not-Deer is rooted in the legends 87 00:05:54,845 --> 00:05:59,415 of forest spirits of North America, Europe, and Asia, or that the Not-Deer 88 00:05:59,735 --> 00:06:01,565 is a part of Appalachian folklore. 89 00:06:02,015 --> 00:06:03,035 This is inaccurate. 90 00:06:04,310 --> 00:06:08,300 Deer have a long, varied, but almost entirely benign association 91 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:10,460 with magical concepts worldwide. 92 00:06:11,180 --> 00:06:15,320 The horror theme of the Not-Deer stories, was developed only within 93 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,610 the past five years or so and have an uncanny and evil tone. 94 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:24,770 The usually timid herbivore, symbolic of nature's beauty we admire, is 95 00:06:24,770 --> 00:06:26,630 turned into an unnatural threat. 96 00:06:27,125 --> 00:06:31,535 The Not-Deer tales serve as a warning that the wilderness still holds 97 00:06:31,535 --> 00:06:33,815 secrets and perils we need to respect. 98 00:06:35,285 --> 00:06:38,615 That overall theme has lately become associated with the 99 00:06:38,615 --> 00:06:40,625 Appalachian land itself. 100 00:06:42,455 --> 00:06:46,865 "Weird" or "strange" Appalachia is the contrived concept that these 101 00:06:46,865 --> 00:06:50,345 forests are haunted and dangerous, hosting supernatural beings. 102 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:56,180 The lore portrays the woods as enchanted with an ancient magic, as old as the 103 00:06:56,180 --> 00:07:00,680 land itself, far older than humans, and that the creatures who dwelled 104 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,990 here before us still inhabit the woods in their eldritch forms as monsters, 105 00:07:05,990 --> 00:07:11,390 witches, ghosts, and fairies, or may manifest as bizarre sound or lights. 106 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,680 The genre of Appalachian folk horror wasn't new. 107 00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:20,975 But it ramped up, particularly around 2020 when people began to share experiences. 108 00:07:21,455 --> 00:07:24,485 People told of creepy incidents that occurred while living in the 109 00:07:24,485 --> 00:07:28,625 Appalachian woods or while hiking or staying at vacation rentals. 110 00:07:29,495 --> 00:07:33,155 Locals would matter of factly state that the woods have always been haunted, 111 00:07:33,545 --> 00:07:38,075 leading to the pop cultural idea that it is not unusual for weird things to be 112 00:07:38,075 --> 00:07:40,235 observed in these eastern forest lands. 113 00:07:41,465 --> 00:07:46,865 Google search shows that Not-Deer related to Appalachia increased as a term of 114 00:07:46,865 --> 00:07:50,195 interest, particularly in 2020 and 2021. 115 00:07:50,915 --> 00:07:54,575 The search location most associated with them was West Virginia. 116 00:07:56,195 --> 00:07:59,775 Content creators repeated and embellished stories of the Not-Deer 117 00:07:59,795 --> 00:08:03,665 in the context of "weird Appalachia" as often seen with cryptids. 118 00:08:04,655 --> 00:08:08,855 The descriptions of the Not-Deer morphed and merged with other monster stories. 119 00:08:09,875 --> 00:08:14,975 Thanks to creative license as well as misappropriation of indigenous lore, we 120 00:08:14,975 --> 00:08:19,685 see the Not-Deer concept merging into a corrupted version of the Algonquin 121 00:08:19,685 --> 00:08:25,235 cannibal spirit of the north, the Wendigo, now erroneously depicted with antlers. 122 00:08:26,945 --> 00:08:31,385 Another dramatic take on Not-Deer is that they're not the well-known timid 123 00:08:31,385 --> 00:08:36,155 forest creature, but supernatural shapeshifters: humans that have 124 00:08:36,155 --> 00:08:38,465 imperfectly taken the form of a deer. 125 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:43,530 In this sense, the modern Not-Deer followed the creation of "creepypasta" 126 00:08:43,550 --> 00:08:45,200 creatures like Slender Man. 127 00:08:46,070 --> 00:08:49,790 These are tales spawned from scary made up stories or images spread 128 00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:54,170 online by copying and pasting and adding your own flourishes. 129 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:59,900 Copy/pasting of scary tales became the term creepypasta. 130 00:09:01,190 --> 00:09:05,570 Developed and spread artificially fast, unlike regular folklore, these 131 00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:10,340 stories are called "folkloresque" and may become so widespread that they 132 00:09:10,340 --> 00:09:14,960 enter into our lived culture and become indistinguishable from genuine folklore. 133 00:09:16,820 --> 00:09:19,460 Reports of strange deer behavior are common. 134 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,870 It's just within the last five years that the theme has gained an association with 135 00:09:23,870 --> 00:09:30,665 cryptids and named the "Not-Deer." I found a reference written in 1975 relating two 136 00:09:30,665 --> 00:09:34,865 incidents of strange deer-like creatures that were from the plains, not Appalachia. 137 00:09:35,915 --> 00:09:40,475 This came secondhand to Jerome Clark, former editor of Fate Magazine. 138 00:09:41,225 --> 00:09:44,855 Clark later wrote in Fortean Times Magazine about these reports. 139 00:09:45,305 --> 00:09:48,825 The first was from Mrs. Laub of Calumet, Oklahoma. 140 00:09:49,545 --> 00:09:54,020 She said that around 1951, she saw a creature in her farm field that looked 141 00:09:54,020 --> 00:09:59,330 like a cross between a wolf and a deer that stood on four thin deer like 142 00:09:59,330 --> 00:10:02,240 legs, but with huge pads for feet. 143 00:10:02,930 --> 00:10:05,870 It had long hair, pointed ears and a bushy tail. 144 00:10:06,710 --> 00:10:10,940 Then soon after, before Mrs. Laub's account appeared in Fate, Clark's 145 00:10:10,940 --> 00:10:14,900 father told him of a weird animal he had encountered along a road in Canby, 146 00:10:14,900 --> 00:10:18,920 Minnesota that looked like a small deer, but with a horse-like tail. 147 00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:23,210 He shot at the animal to scare it, but astoundingly it didn't react. 148 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,010 Both witnesses noted that they were not like any other animals they'd ever seen. 149 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,780 These tales precede the Not-Deer concept by almost five decades. 150 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,920 Reports of unnatural animal encounters go back long before that. 151 00:10:38,540 --> 00:10:42,665 As you might have anticipated, there are some natural explanations to account 152 00:10:42,685 --> 00:10:44,630 for Not-Deer reports in Appalachia. 153 00:10:46,415 --> 00:10:49,295 Deer rearing up on their hind legs is not that abnormal. 154 00:10:49,685 --> 00:10:54,005 Deer may take a bipedal stance in several normal situations to see, 155 00:10:54,095 --> 00:10:56,675 hear, sniff, or reach food from trees. 156 00:10:57,065 --> 00:11:01,265 They also do this to intimidate, fight or play, or even as a surprise 157 00:11:01,265 --> 00:11:03,125 reaction to people or objects. 158 00:11:03,875 --> 00:11:07,475 Game cameras have caught deer in these positions innumerable times. 159 00:11:09,655 --> 00:11:11,675 Deer do not have an easy life in the wild. 160 00:11:12,005 --> 00:11:16,655 They're susceptible to injuries, parasites, viruses, bacterial 161 00:11:16,655 --> 00:11:20,255 infections, and endangered by humans, their main predator. 162 00:11:21,665 --> 00:11:26,105 Current encounters with Not-Deer are at least somewhat attributable to wildlife 163 00:11:26,105 --> 00:11:31,175 diseases that are rampant in white-tailed deer populations resulting in distressing 164 00:11:31,175 --> 00:11:32,915 appearance and bizarre behaviors. 165 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,810 Diseases associated with coughing and labored breathing, uncoordination, 166 00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:44,870 swollen body parts, skin lesions or growths, hair loss, overgrown 167 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,090 or misshapen hooves or antlers. 168 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:51,590 And secondary unusual behaviors such as approaching humans, 169 00:11:51,860 --> 00:11:56,180 repetitive or unusual motion, and desperate seeking of water or food. 170 00:11:57,785 --> 00:12:02,075 Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease also affects deer and related animals 171 00:12:02,105 --> 00:12:03,935 causing pathological behavior. 172 00:12:04,295 --> 00:12:06,395 The animal dies within a few days. 173 00:12:07,925 --> 00:12:12,215 Chronic Wasting Disease is likely a major cause of people reporting 174 00:12:12,215 --> 00:12:14,495 anomalous deer behavior and appearance. 175 00:12:14,885 --> 00:12:20,285 CWD is a disease related to Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, also 176 00:12:20,285 --> 00:12:25,955 known as "mad cow disease." Abnormal proteins called prions are produced 177 00:12:25,955 --> 00:12:30,305 in a chain reaction affecting the brain and damaging the nervous system. 178 00:12:30,815 --> 00:12:35,405 It's spread through the population through direct contact and is always fatal. 179 00:12:36,185 --> 00:12:42,395 First discovered in Colorado in 1967, it spread east of the Mississippi in 2002, 180 00:12:42,815 --> 00:12:44,945 and now has spread across North America. 181 00:12:45,695 --> 00:12:48,335 Prions can persist in the environment for years. 182 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,690 CWD causes emaciation, drooling and desensitization 183 00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:55,490 to threats like people in cars. 184 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,780 It can cause tremors, stumbling, and repetitive movements. 185 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:05,090 CWD-infected deer are sometimes referred to as "zombie deer," an 186 00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:06,980 unfortunate and inaccurate label. 187 00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:09,590 The deer do not normally attack or bite people. 188 00:13:10,925 --> 00:13:15,425 As far as we know, CWD is not transmissible to humans, however, 189 00:13:15,425 --> 00:13:20,495 various precautions regarding contact with deer, reporting, and disposal 190 00:13:20,495 --> 00:13:24,935 of certain carcass parts, such as the head and spinal column, are employed 191 00:13:24,935 --> 00:13:26,735 in areas where the disease is known. 192 00:13:27,815 --> 00:13:31,925 Community feeding and watering of wild deer spreads this disease. 193 00:13:33,455 --> 00:13:37,595 In some reports related to the Not-Deer, the animal is described 194 00:13:37,595 --> 00:13:42,035 as having a bovine or swollen face that makes its appearance unnatural. 195 00:13:42,695 --> 00:13:46,415 The National Deer Association published information on a chronic 196 00:13:46,415 --> 00:13:48,875 infection that causes facial swelling. 197 00:13:49,535 --> 00:13:53,585 The syndrome has been named "Bullwinkle Deer." Animals with 198 00:13:53,585 --> 00:13:57,665 this or other conditions can be startling and confusing to witnesses. 199 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,740 We can conclude that the modern legend of the Not-Deer was heavily influenced 200 00:14:03,740 --> 00:14:08,900 by an assemblage of factors that came together beginning around 2019: the 201 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:13,340 cultural appetite for weird Appalachia tales of magical places and their 202 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:19,430 monsters; human encounters with deer both usual and unusual; an expansion 203 00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:24,400 of terrible behavioral-altering diseases; and the prevalence of social 204 00:14:24,425 --> 00:14:28,565 media that encouraged the spread and embellishment of these stories. 205 00:14:30,515 --> 00:14:33,995 We continue with more on the infamous spooky phenomenon reported 206 00:14:33,995 --> 00:14:37,835 in "weird Appalachia" in the ad-free and extended premium feed. 207 00:14:38,285 --> 00:14:43,155 To access it, become a supporter at skeptoid.com/gopremium. 208 00:14:48,005 --> 00:14:49,805 This has been guest host Sharon Hill. 209 00:14:50,075 --> 00:14:54,955 You can find my work on popular cryptids, spooky geology, and anomalous natural 210 00:14:54,955 --> 00:14:59,145 phenomenon at my website sharonahill.com. 211 00:15:00,365 --> 00:15:04,465 A great big Skeptoid shoutout to our premium listeners, including: Brandon 212 00:15:04,465 --> 00:15:10,475 S. 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